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This show is sponsored by Murder in the Heartland, a podcast from I D. Murder in the Heartland explores real crimes across small town America, Towns that might look a lot like your own. Every week, uncover shocking stories of murder and betrayal. From a suspicious hunting accident to a college student who disappears after her shift
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at the local bar.
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Hear from investigators, witnesses and family members as they share the chilling details behind each case. If you're interested in true crime with a small town twist, you might love this podcast. Listen to Murder in the Heartland wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Brad Milke, the host of ABC's Start Here podcast. And if you're joining us today, it's because you just listened to the latest series from ABC Audio and 2020 the Snare. Welcome to a special bonus episode. Cause if you're like me, you were listening with bated breath as it was revealed that this brutal killing, the, the rape and murder of 18 year old Angie Dodge in her apartment, leads to a false confession from Kris Tapp, despite the fact that his DNA never matched the DNA found at the crime scene. You've got a trial, a conviction, and then Angie's own mother, who once advocated for a death penalty sentence, fighting to exonerate Kris Tapp. Well, today we're gonna dig more into how all of this went down. We're gonna do it with the host of the show, Maggie Ruley. And in fact, later we will hear directly from someone involved in the case. So thanks for being here. Let's get this going. We're, we got my colleague and good friend Maggie Ruley with us. Hey, Maggie.
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C
Hey, Brad. So happy to be here with you.
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Um, most people might not know this. You and I sat next to each other at ABC News headquarters for years, Right. So I, I can't even calculate the
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C
best years of my career, Brad.
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Right. I can't even calculate the number of hours we have spent discussing stories. But I've been waiting to pick your brain about this one in particular because it, it's so well told. But what made you want to tell this story? Maggie?
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Yeah, Brad, we've worked on so many stories next to each other over the years, but this one is really incredible. I think what's amazing about this story is that it really shows how one crime can hurt affect so many people. Then at the core of it, you have this one crime and how it ruined people's lives. Not only, obviously Angie Dodge, who had her life stolen from her at 18. Not only her family, her mom, Carol Dodge, whose lives were upended when she lost her daughter, but also the man falsely accused, Chris Tapp, who then goes to prison for decades. Right. So you have two victims here, one crime, and so many people that are just never the same afterwards.
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This is your first podcast with ABC News, at least.
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C
Right?
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What was it like working in this medium?
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C
It was amazing, Brad. You know, I'm so used to working on tv where you can rely on video and audio, but this was fascinating because you really realized how powerful the voice can be. And there's this one moment for me, Brad, that I'll never forget, really taught me that lesson. And it's near the end of the podcast, and we hear from Angie's mom, Carol. And, you know, Carol is just this incredible force of nature, and she's talking about what it's like when they finally get the right man behind bars. And you don't see her face, but you just hear her voice. And the emotion, it's raw. There's still so much pain and grief, and there's this relief and joy mixed in. In this moment. And it's something I'll never forget. You know, I must have listened to that soundbite. I mean, dozens of times, Brad. And every time, I would start to tear up. And again, I never saw her face. I just heard her words. But those words were so powerful. And I think sometimes hearing a voice can almost mean more than seeing their face, because you're forced just to listen.
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Yeah. I find sometimes, Maggie, like, you can almost hear the emotion before you before the tears ever flow. Right. And you hear it from her so, too.
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100%.
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Hey, what surprised you the most about this story? Cause there are so many twists and turns here.
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C
Yeah, you really never know what's coming, Brad. And I think the biggest surprise in this story is who ends up supporting Chris Tapp. He ends up confessing to this crime. He's convicted. He goes to prison. You have Carol, Angie's mom, wanting the death penalty for Chris Tapp. Now, when it comes to Carol, I mean, Brad, I'm not sure about you, but I don't know if I've ever really heard of a victim's mother supporting the man convicted of killing her child before. I mean, just imagine that partnership. But that's how much those interrogation tapes changed her, that she not only believed him, but was one of his biggest supporters called, you know, his attorney, advocated for him, went out of her way to free him from prison. And then you have this other man, Jeremy Sargis, a friend of Chris's, who, at the very beginning of the podcast, you'll remember that in Chris's interviews with police, he falsely links Jeremy to the crime. Jeremy denied ever being involved in Angie's rape and murder. He had an alibi the night Angie was killed, and his DNA was not a match. He was charged with being an accessory to a felony, but the charge was eventually dropped. Jeremy was cleared as a suspect, but he says despite being cleared, it rocked his world. He felt like he had to leave town because everyone in town still associated him with being a part of this crime, even though he was cleared of any guilt. And now Jeremy, he also watched the interrogation tapes, and he said after watching them, it changed his perception of Chris instantly. Here's Jeremy talking about watching the footage.
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Well, while I was watching these tapes, I felt like a sports fan or something like that. You see the guys scream and yell at the TV and get all emotional with the tv. I felt like that guy.
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I was yelling at him.
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Why did you say that? What? Didn't you hear what they just said? Why did you say that?
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And, dude, what are you doing?
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And so it was a whole new light on the subject.
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And so you have this unbelievable character arc, which, again, is almost too incredible to believe.
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Maggie, hearing that, that is the crux of the entire podcast for me, is hearing someone in the moment, like, under this intense spotlight of police interrogation, implicating others in a crime that isn't true, but implicating himself, too. And it goes to show you sort of what you were talking about with. With Carol the mother, just how important the context of hearing the whole tapes is. Did Chris and Jeremy ever have, like, a moment of reconciliation?
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C
Yeah, they did. You know, Jeremy said that shortly after he watched that interrogation footage, which again, Brad, there's like, some 60 hours of interrogation footage and polygraph tapes, he sent a letter to Chris and in prison, and here's what Jeremy said he wrote in his letter.
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I wanted him to know that I finally see what happened to him, and I'm sorry. That is what happened to him, and that it makes sense to me now. And I just wanted to make sure that he knew that I cared, and I just wanted Chris to know that I was there for him. And I understand how his confession happened.
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C
Brad, it's incredible. Jeremy told ABC that he's forgiven Chris and that he's let any anger towards him go. You said something that I think is so important that those tapes are kind of the crux of the podcast. And I have to say myself, Brad, when I first started looking into the story and hearing about this story, I think for many people. You hear someone give a confession and you cannot in your right mind imagine why. Why would you ever confess to something you did not do? It's almost hard to wrap your mind around. And having gone through this podcast, hearing so much of those interrogation tapes from Chris, hearing, you know, the brilliant analysts that ABC has interviewed, you actually start to understand it. And I think that's what Jeremy's talking about here, right? Like this is someone who falsely implicated him in a rape and murder. Then he goes back and watches and listens to these tapes and that turns into forgiveness because he sees what happened to his friend, right?
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Like a full circle moment. And like this moment of empathy that I think is difficult to even comprehend. It's so powerful. Hey, we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we're gonna talk with Maggie about what happened to Chris after these moments and after his exone. What was life like after prison? That's after the break.
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I found out My grandfather is Charles Manson.
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This is all the phone calls that I had with Charles.
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She's the key. You're caught up in the biggest lie in the history of lies to unlock Manson's untold secrets.
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C
How could my blood do something so atrocious?
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The Hulu Original Series Furious. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.
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There are three victims we know of.
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The suspect is female, white, late twenties.
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Female serial killers kill for power, control.
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I believe there's a deeper motivation here.
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You have no idea who you're dealing with and you are going to end up dead.
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I've been waiting for you.
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Watch the Hulu Original series Furious. Now streaming on Hulu And Hulu on Disney plus for month of subscribers, terms apply.
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A
Hey, Maggie, I want to talk about Chris's life post prison. So he's just spent 20 years behind bars for a crime he didn't commit, knowing it was his own words that put him there. How do you rebuild your life after that?
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Yeah, it's such a good question, Brad. I mean, we have to think about Chris when he first went to prison, right? He was just 21 years old. Think about what you were like when you were 21. He was still a kid in many ways. And then he finds himself convicted of rape and murder, facing life in prison, and he sits there for the next 20 plus years of his life. So, yes, he is released. Yes, he's eventually exonerated. But he says it himself, those 20 years are huge years, right? Your 20s, your 30s. It's when maybe you're going to school or building a career or having kids, and he missed all of that. So all of a sudden, he finds himself, you know, in his 40s, released, free for the first time, starting over in a way. And Chris said that being sent to prison came with a lot of loss.
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I lost a lot of friends. I lost some family. And, you know, you accept that, and you have to make it in your mind, there ain't nothing you can do about it.
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C
You know, Brad, the biggest thing Chris said he lost was time. And Chris was trying to make up for that when he was released. You know, in his obituary, it says that Chris got to experience some of his biggest dreams in those years that he was free. He went to a live NFL game, a WWE match. He got to see Metallica and Kiss in concert. So he did try to make up for those years that he lost by simply just living life. He also became an advocate. He traveled the country talking about his story, talking about going away to prison for a crime he did not commit. And he became an advocate for post conviction reform. He worked closely with the Innocence Project, and he dedicated himself to making a real change based on what he lived through.
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A
Right. A change for others, because like we heard in the show, he actually did help get legislation passed.
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C
Yeah, he really made a difference with his efforts. And in 2021, Idaho passed the Wrongful Convictions Act. And this law will compensate wrongfully convicted victims up to 62,000 DOL for each year they were incarcerated, 75,000 for every year if they were on death row. And this is a major deal, right? This is something that Chris was passionate about. He worked with the Innocence Project. They really credit Chris for helping get the law passed. When Idaho signed this into law, Chris was at the signing ceremony which took place at the Bonneville County Courthouse, the same courthouse where he was ultimately exonerated. So you talk about these full circle moments, right, Brad? I mean, there's another one for you.
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But then you said something else that stuck out to me. You said in his obituary, this was said about him because. So Chris spent two decades in prison. He gets exonerated in 2019. Four years later, I think he dies at the age of 47. What do we know about his death and the circumstances?
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Yeah, this is part of the story, Brad, that I think we all really wished went another way. I think, I wish I could say right now, you know, this man was finally freed. He lived an amazing life. He has a family and a career. And he tried for those four years when he was free. But then at just the age of 47, like you mentioned, according to the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, Chris got into an altercation with another man, a former pro wrestler, a one time Nevada congressional candidate, Daniel Rodimer. Personnel responded and they report that there was a man who we now know as Chris, suffering from injuries. Chris was then taken to the hospital and declared dead about just a week later. Eventually, Rodimer was arrested and charged with open murder. He pleaded not guilty and he denies the allegations. He and his attorneys have filed a motion to dismiss the indictment, which the judge denied. A trial set for early 2027.
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Such a bizarre circumstance too, this whole story out of Las Vegas. I mean, Chris Tapp's family, like he still has family. And they've been through so much these last few years. How do they want him to be remembered? How do they describe him?
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Yeah, you know, it's such a good point. We talk about Carol so much in this podcast, the mom of, you know, Angie, who was, was raped and murdered. But, you know, we also talk about the mom of Chris Tapp. She's also there in the courthouse when he's being sentenced, when he's being exonerated. You know, she lost her son to prison for 20 plus years. And then four years after his release, she lost her son again. And in his obituary, you know, his family said he wanted Chris to be remembered as a man who was a, quote, big teddy bear. His obituary says he was funny, kind and caring, someone who'd give you the shirt off his back. And he was loved by so many. His death is an immense loss.
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Yeah, Maggie, it's really extraordinary storytelling and work by you and the team. Thank you so much for Taking us a little deeper here.
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No, of course, Brad. So great talking to you as always.
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All right, we're going to take another quick break. When we come back, we're going to talk with one of Chris's earliest advocates, a forensic DNA expert who took on his case and hear what he wants us to remember about the man he eventually considered a friend. That's after the break. In a sunny Californian suburb, one family's home is unusually quiet.
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When detectives walked into that house, they said that it was like time just stood still.
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It's 2010, and the McStay family is nowhere to be found inside the home. No clear answer where the family could have gone. Husband, wife, and two children, all gone. Like, poof. Disappeared. The search for the McStay's quickly captures the nation. But for years, the search for answers only brings more questions.
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Who's ever heard of an entire family going missing?
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A family of four doesn't just drop off the face of the earth with no contact. Is this a family on the run? Or is the truth far more sinister? From ABC Audio in 2020, this is what happened to the mixed days. Coming August 11th, wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to 2020 True Crime plus on Apple Podcasts for ad free episodes or early access to new episodes and so much more. All right, we're back, and we've got a special guest with us for the rest of this episode. Greg Hampikian was the founder of the Idaho Innocence Project. He's a biologist and forensic DNA expert who's worked on a number of high profile cases like the Amanda Knox case, the Kerry Robinson case. Thank you so much for being with us, Greg.
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Glad to be here.
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Hey.
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The Innocence Project Special litigation Team, they're based in New York. They got involved around 2015, but the Idaho Innocence Project, you guys got involved in Chris's case much earlier. Right. So I'm wondering, how did you learn about the case and what were your initial thoughts about it?
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B
Back in 2007, we were forming the Idaho Innocence Project, and word got out that we were looking for cases and Chris Tapp was one of the first people to write to us and was one of the first two cases that that we took. At first, when he wrote to us, you know, he explained the his case. We looked into it and there was DNA that was used at his trial. So a jury already saw DNA evidence and that excluded him, and they still convicted him. And so it was a really hard case.
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A
Well, and you've met Chris Tapp, right? I mean, what were Your initial impressions of him, Chris?
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B
What was my initial impression? You know, we became really besties after he got out. But, you know, meeting someone in prison is always a stilted, terrible situation. Chris was not too hopeful that we could do anything for him. I think this new organizational. So we, you know, it was kind of a stilted but warm meeting. When I went to see him in prison, then he, you know, he'd call and we'd talk.
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A
How was he doing when he was behind bars, I guess.
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B
Oh, it was hard. He was thrown into prison. A very innocent kind of a guy. I mean, just his mentality wasn't like a gang member or something. And so he grew up in the prisons and he learned how to live there. Fairly tough. You know, he toughened up very fast, and I think it was. I don't think it was something he ever overcame was his education in the prisons for 20 years.
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Were you at his exoneration hearing, by the way? What was that? What was it like?
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Well, so there were two, you know, there were two times. So the first time they just let him out of prison, Right.
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They released him from prison and dropped the rape conviction.
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Yeah. They still called him a murderer. They dropped the rape charge even though all the evidence was the same, you know, but they didn't want to drop the murder charge. And Chris. That was Chris's decision. Should he continue from prison to prove his absolute innocence and. Or does he take this deal and get out and he took the deal, but we were able to continue working on the case. So, I mean, it was that. That first thing that had a mixed emotional impact. But, you know, my emotions are not important. I know people want to hear about it.
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A
I just want to know how it must feel vindicating at that. At that second hearing, then when he's actually exonerated, it must be. Oh, must.
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B
Yes. It was sweet because his friends were there, and the friends were the really fun part of it, that everybody came to be with him and we got to hang with him. And, you know, and Vera, his mom, was there, who, you know, she was a very sympathetic and very tired person throughout all of this. She just stuck by him.
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So.
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Yeah, I'm sorry that, you know, like, I think people expect that when you get an exoneration, you know, you're just euphoric and this and that. But really, it's. It's the end of a long, long, long, long journey.
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Like, you can't divorce yourself from these years and years of injustice.
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No. And I'm still worried now. I'm Worried about the man. You know, the man's getting out of prison. But yes, of course, it was just sweet to, like, finish, you know, it looked like when Chris was exonerated, it's over, but turned out not to be over. We had to get some laws passed, and he had to sue for compensation.
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Well, tell me about that, by the way. So Chris played a part in getting the Wrongful Convictions act passed in Idaho. So this law provides compensation to people who've been wrongfully convicted. What was it like to see him get to be part of that moment?
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Oh, great. Chris, you know, Chris got very involved with passing laws, not only here. I know he went to Oregon. He went several other states, went down south. I know. And he would testify it at these hearings. But it was actually a state representative, Doug Ricks, who had heard about Chris's story and called me. I had been trying to pass a compensation law for, I don't know, 15, 16 years at that point. I'd been trying for, you know, more than a decade to get a sponsor of a bill, which you have to get. And nobody wanted to sponsor it till Chris Tapp. They loved Chris. The legislature loved Chris.
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What's your favorite memory of him, by the way? Anything that you haven't mentioned here?
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You know, probably hanging out here at the house. After he got out, he'd come by. He'd come by with, you know, after this settlement, he'd come by to show us the latest car he bought or whatever. He'd be in the latest car, and we'd want to see it. And he bought. I don't know, it seemed like he was buying one a month for a while, for a few months. And. But just when he'd come over here we go, you know, and get Mexican takeout, and we'd sit around the room. And this. This room back here, he's the, you know, lie on that couch. After his long drive, and that was it. We were really. We became really good friends, he and I. And he'd call me. He used to call me his crazy uncle. I'm not sure where the crazy came from, but he.
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A
But I would imagine that he probably feels some sort of like you were the guy with some power, with some authority outside while he was desperately trying to get out for so many years. He might. It sounds like he probably did think of you as kind of a family member.
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So I think he had a lot. A lot of folks. I don't. I don't know what, you know, what did Chris think of me? I hope he thought of me as just a really good friend. I don't know how smart he thought I was. You know, he joked with me about being the absent minded professor anytime I forgot a pencil or my keys or whatever. But we just had a loving relationship. I mean, I think we care, we cared about each other once he got out.
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A
Yeah, that's great. Well, then I guess when people learn about Chris Tapp and his life, what do you want them to take away from his story? Because there have been so many turns throughout it.
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B
Wow. You know, from my point of view, hope is always the thing that, that I'm hoping to get out of these very difficult cases, these ones where people say there's no hope. I mean, the number of times I was told there was no hope on Kirsten's case, I was told by our lawyer, my own lawyer at the Innocence Project, one of the lawyers, he's never getting out. And this guy's one of the most experienced post conviction lawy lawyers. He's, you're not going to get Chris out. We're not going to get Chris out. And so I would say hope and persistence. And then from his own life, you know, the, the cautious tale about changes
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A
in fate makes me think of his case in particular, where your whole life can change over the course of a few hours or a few days of interrogations, as it were.
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B
Yes. I mean, you know, you have to remember the changes that Chris experienced. He, you have a life like that, you have a different expectation of what fate is. I don't think any of us can relate to it. You know, to be thrown into prison, no hope, to be freed from prison, you know, to be, to be wrongfully convicted, then to be freed, to be a national celebrity, get involved with all this. And then his own, his own death. Yeah, it's hard to look at Chris and see a typical life there. It's not typical.
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A
It's really an incredible story. And I'm so glad, Greg, that you were able to just describe some of your work on it. Thank you so much for being with us.
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B
Sure. Yeah, my pleasure.
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A
All right, and that will do it for us here on the final episode of the Snare. Thanks to our host Maggie Ruley for joining us. And now all episodes are out right now, so you can check it out wherever you get your podcast, share it with your friends. I'm Brad Milke. You can catch me on start here every morning, ABC's Daily News podcast. Wherever you're listening now, I'll see you later.
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C
In 2023, a source sent me a tip.
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A
It tied baseball's biggest star to a
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C
vast illegal sports betting operation.
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B
Shohei Ohtani.
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C
But then someone surprising confessed to me, his best friend.
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A
I'm Ippei Mizuhara.
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C
And you do have permission to record me from 30 for 30 podcasts. This is the betrayal of Shohei Ohtani. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.