← The Southern Tea
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- [00:01]
Lindsay Chrisley
Maybe I'm just like weird. Maybe I'm crunchy. This is the Southern Tea with Lindsay Chrisley. I think it's so funny when you get Christmas cards and all of these people write their children's accomplishments on the back. I don't love them. A southern girl and a boy mom who's trying to navigate life while staying.
- [00:18]
Jessica Turner
True to her roots.
- [00:19]
Lindsay Chrisley
I am a functioning, non functioning human being right now. Join Lindsay each week as she swears.
- [00:25]
Jessica Turner
To spill the tea, the whole tea.
- [00:27]
Lindsay Chrisley
And nothing but the tea. Tea that is the tea. Here's Lindsay. Good morning and welcome back to another episode of the Southern Tea. I am so excited because today I am interviewing Jessica Turner. She is a tastemaker for busy women who respect her recommendations and hard won wisdom around living with intention. Her practical advice and upbeat personality makes her a trustworthy voice for women around the world and annually millions of people people view her online content. She is also the author of the Wall Street Journal best selling book the Fringe Hours and Stretched Too Thin How Working Moms Can Lose the Guilt, Work Smarter and Thrive. Her newest book, I Thought It Would Be Better than this releases April 8th. A content creator with 20 years of experience and a content creator with 20 years of experience AND the 2001 IRIS Award winner for best Mom Blog, Jessica partners with many beloved brands and services that help make life easier for busy women. Some of the brands that have worked with Jessica over the years include Nike, Southwest Airlines, Target, Walmart, Amazon, Hallmark, Swiffer, Dyson and hundreds more. She also speaks at events nationwide on work, life, balance, navigating grief and disappointment, and social media best practices. She has been featured in numerous media outlets including the Today show, the Tamarind Hall Show, Hallmark's Home, Home and Family, O Magazine, People Magazine, Better homes and gardens, time.com and inc.com Good morning Jessica. How are you?
- [02:09]
Jessica Turner
I'm good. How are you?
- [02:11]
Lindsay Chrisley
Listen, I was just texting my boyfriend this morning and he was so excited for me to do this interview because I have been talking about it since it's been on the book.
- [02:20]
Jessica Turner
Oh, that means so much to me. Thank you for saying that. I'm. I'm really grateful to be here. Thank you for reading it ahead of the interview. Not everyone does that, surprisingly. So I feel really grateful to have a conversation with you.
- [02:34]
Lindsay Chrisley
Well, I took this book all the way to Mexico. It is super bended. I take took a lot of notes and I absolutely loved it and love your story so would love to jump right in. First, I want to know, are you a Nashville native?
- [02:53]
Jessica Turner
I'M not. Although I feel like maybe I have crossed over to being almost, because I have been here for 21 years. So that feels like maybe I don't know what the next step right beneath native is, but I've seen Nashville change a lot, and I've been here half my life.
- [03:11]
Lindsay Chrisley
That's amazing. So you started your married life there?
- [03:15]
Jessica Turner
I did, yep. I grew up in Wisconsin, and I went to Madison for college, and then I met Matthew when I was a junior in college. And once I graduated, three weeks later, I bought my first car, got my first job, and moved to Nashville and never looked back.
- [03:33]
Lindsay Chrisley
That's amazing. I would love to know how long this process took you to write this book.
- [03:39]
Jessica Turner
Well, I started the book three years ago, so it took a long time. The bulk of the writing, I would say, though, I did in about six, six months. I finished the manuscript in March of 2024, so it's been over a year since I finished it. But, yeah, I started writing it a few years ago right after, in case people don't know my story, my husband came out during the pandemic. We divorced after 16 years, and my Instagram followers immediately started saying, are you going to write a book? Are you going to write a book? And I was like, I am deep in trauma right now. I cannot think about writing a book at the minute. But I did start thinking about, gosh, is there something that I should write? Is there something I can say that would be helpful to people? You know, I'm a big believer in to whom much is given, much is required. And so for me, that looks like taking things that I've learned and serving other women. And I. A friend of mine, I don't know if you know her. Mallory Irvin. Do you know her?
- [04:44]
Lindsay Chrisley
Yes. Parents are friends with Mallory.
- [04:47]
Jessica Turner
Oh, okay. So her book Living Fully came out, and her editor was at her book signing, and I was there, and she said, are you writing a book yet? And I said, no, I'm not. And she said, I really think you should start writing. And at the same time, like, within the same couple weeks, the agent that I had had for nine years unexpectedly left me, removed me from her roster. So I was like, well, I'll show her. I am going to write a book. And so that's when I really started writing and kind of working on the book. But I wanted there to be, like, as much time for me to heal and learn so that by the time a book would come out, I would feel really, really confident in it. And I do feel so Proud of this book and stand by everything that was written in it. You may know this. When you write a book, you don't record the audiobook till right before it comes out. The publisher just wants to make sure it's, like, totally done, nothing's been changed. And so I just recorded the book in January. And after I finished it, I remember thinking to myself, yes, Like, I stand by all of this. Like, a year later, all of this still feels really true and good and useful for people. So I'm so excited for it to finally be in people's hands.
- [06:01]
Lindsay Chrisley
It felt very authentic. And I felt like I was sitting in your living room with you telling me a story.
- [06:09]
Jessica Turner
Good. Yeah, that's. I wanted to feel. I want people to feel heard. It is very lonely walking through disappointment of any kind. You know, this is not a divorce book. This is a book about disappointment which finds all of us, whatever our stories are, when we face something in our lives that feels different than what we hoped our life would be, that you could read this book and feel less alone in that and not just feel less alone in your disappointment, but also feel like you have a friend whose coach coaching you with, like, what to do next and not have that be the end of your story.
- [06:46]
Lindsay Chrisley
So back to Mallory for just a second. I actually read her book. I was gifted that book from my parents whenever I was walking through divorce. And so this feels like a very full circle moment. And it's so weird. I woke up to get ready. I had a bunch of errands to do today. It was kind of like a self care day for me. And I put on my Kelsey Ballerini sweatshirt from her concert. And that also was my divorce album. And there was so much healing that I felt that I had not done as I was reading through your book.
- [07:22]
Jessica Turner
Wow.
- [07:23]
Lindsay Chrisley
Wow.
- [07:24]
Jessica Turner
Well, I don't think healing is ever completely done. Right. I write about in the book, I had a hysterectomy and I had really bad endometriosis and still had one ovary, so there was still, like, the possibility of recurrence. And I went to my pelvic floor, floor doctor or my endometriosis specialist. She specializes in pelvic pain. And I said, I'm still having pain on my right side and I don't have an ovary there. Like, what could possibly hurt? And she said, what is your life like right now? Are you stressed? Because our scars can hurt and that can flare when we're stressed. And I thought, wow, that is very profound for life as well. That even when we think we are healed, even when we have extreme, distracted. The thing like, literally I don't have an ovary anymore, that pain can still come up in my body. And likewise, even though I'm not married anymore, even though I've done so much work around the loss of my marriage and the expectations I had for my life, like, sometimes things still come up and I still get sad. And that's. That's a part of. Of healing and scarring, I think, for all of us.
- [08:38]
Lindsay Chrisley
I was very taken aback by the fact that you could relate so many real life stories to situations that you go through in life and the fact that you could just put that down in a book. I mean, like the wiring in your house, for example. Those examples.
- [09:00]
Jessica Turner
I love that story. Yeah.
- [09:01]
Lindsay Chrisley
Like, how. How do you. And I think when you're going through trauma, it's really hard. You're so exhausted and you're so tired, and you're just trying to get to the next day, and that you don't think about the journaling aspect of writing down what every day looks like because it's so exhausting to live it.
- [09:18]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, it is. It is. Would it be okay if I shared that wiring story for people who haven't read the book yet? So after my divorce, I remodeled my dining room and kitchen. Those rooms are right next to each other. We knocked out the wall, made them, you know, one big room, and just tore everything out. My house was, like, very 80s fabulous. It was. It was time for an upgrade. And I stayed in the house that Matthew and I shared when we were married. And so also, it was important to me to really make the house feel like mine. And so I did a lot of work around the house. When that remodel was happening in my dining room, there was crown molding around the ceiling, and there were can lights in that dining room, which we really loved the can lights because they had dimmers on them, and it could make, you know, the ambience nicer in that room. And they took down that crown molding. This is unbelievable. The wiring for those can lights was literally stapled to the wall. And the man who had lived in this house, he liked to do a lot of DIY himself. And the contractor said, you know, this was a fire hazard. Like, you're so lucky the house didn't start on fire. And we never knew that. Right. Like, the lights worked just fine. It looked fine. But then right behind that molding was this fire hazard. And I. That there's things like that in our own lives where it looks like things are fine, but they're actually not fine. And rewiring needs to happen. And there have been so many things in the process of healing from my divorce and getting to know myself better that I've been like, huh, it seemed like that was fine, but actually there's some rewiring that I need to do there. If I keep thinking in this way, that is going to be a fire hazard in my life. Like, it might function for years, okay, but at some point, this is going to be a problem. And so I love that analogy. And I think that it was really just a lot of paying attention, some answers to prayer. Honestly, as I was writing of, like, what can I tell? How can I illustrate this? And. And. And when you're a writer, you just pay attention to your life a little differently. And so I think it was a combination of all of those things that I was able to tell those different stories and make them work for the book. But that rewiring story is, I think, one of my favorites in the book because it has. It's still. I've been dating someone for a year, and I'll say to him, that's something that I'm still working to rewire. You know, it's just like, become even a little catchphrase for us in our relationship. Like, this is something that I know is lingering from my trauma from my past marriage, whatever it is.
- [12:04]
Lindsay Chrisley
I really love that story as well. I thought it was one of the best stories in the book. I would love to know just from your perspective, going through divorce and staying in the home that you shared with your ex husband, how did you do that?
- [12:22]
Jessica Turner
I love my house. And so I think maybe that made it easier. I remember thinking, you know, like, I didn't ask for any of this. This isn't what I wanted. And so it felt like. I don't know, it just felt like it was what I wanted in that moment. I didn't know how long I would stay here at the time. My kids were really little. My youngest was in kindergarten. And then I had a fourth grader and a seventh grader. And so it felt like. And we were doing this during the pandemic as well, so. So it felt like the most stable thing that, like, we both wouldn't move. And Matthew did say to me, like, do you want me to stay in the house? And you get something else. But there were a lot of dreams, like remodel, modeling the kitchen and put a hot tub in. Like, there were a lot of dreams that I still had. For this house, it just didn't feel like I was ready to let it go. And I've changed almost every room in the house since my divorce. And so it's. It doesn't really feel like the house we once had. Like, the rooms are the same, but it feels like my house. I don't even catch, like, my kids, you know, kind of being confused by it or anything. And I think that is going to be a personal choice for every person. But I'm really glad that I did stay here.
- [13:47]
Lindsay Chrisley
I took the actual opposite approach of that. I wanted nothing. And maybe that was just the trauma and the coping. Right. I wanted no piece of furniture. I wanted the house to be gone. I wanted everything of that life to just go away as fast as it could go away. And I look back on it now and not that I regret the decision, um, but I maybe would have done something a little bit different so that it felt a little more stable initially because I had to do all the hard stuff so fast.
- [14:29]
Jessica Turner
Right, right. And you know, with. Matthew and I are still really good friends. He lives in the same neighborhood as me, literally a 90 second drive from my house. And I, again, it was during the pandemic. So it's not like we were interacting with tons of people and had like tons of people around us in a physical way. Like maybe if I was going through it now. And so I was helping Matthew even set up his house. Like I was. I remember shopping at Goodwill and looking for pieces of furniture and helping the kids feel at home as quick as possible. So I just wasn't really thinking about myself in that way. I know that I got rid of all my bedding right, like, right away. And I painted my bedroom right away. I got new carpet in my bedroom and our. The furniture in my primary bedroom we had bought with my book advance for my first book. And it's like beautiful wood bedroom set that I just adore. So, like, I don't even really think about, like, oh, I once, like had this bed with Matthew. Like, this was like my dream furniture. So most of the things I feel like in my house I've replaced, but it wasn't like an immediate. I took down pictures from the wall. I did that immediately. Like, I didn't want all of those family pictures, but the bones of the house didn't matter to me in the same way. But there's no right way to do it. You know, I think it's. I think you're really wise to have noticed what you needed in that moment and acted on it. And I think paying attention to ourselves and our guts is really important because our guts don't lie to us. Right. Like, she's always there to protect.
- [16:07]
Lindsay Chrisley
Protect you 1000%. I also would like to touch on you guys staying together through a therapeutic process for. What did it say in the book? Nine months before he moved out?
- [16:21]
Jessica Turner
Yeah.
- [16:22]
Lindsay Chrisley
What did that look like?
- [16:25]
Jessica Turner
Yeah. So Matthew first told me he was bi in March of 2019, and then in September of 2019, he told me he was gay. And for a period of time, we considered, could we do a mixed orientation marriage? Not an open marriage, not like a marriage where Matthew's, you know, sleeping with men and then he's also sleeping with me and married to me, but a marriage, Mixed orientation marriage, just where the. The couple each has, you know, different sexual orientations and we would, like, circle the drain. So it'd be really bad. And it was like, oh, my gosh, you have to move out. And then it'd be like, no, we really want to stay together. We really, like, how. How could we possibly divorce? Like, we love each other, we love our family, we love our kids. Like, we can't do this. And it was this awful, awful roller coaster. Whatever you can imagine, it was worse. And we both were in therapy separately. We both were still doing couples therapy. And In March of 2020, early March of 2020, we were like, we cannot keep doing this. We. I think we should separate. And so we found an apartment that was close to our house, and Matthew was going to move out. He got the paperwork and the world shut down. And thank God he didn't sign that lease, so. He didn't sign it. We remained in the house. I still was thinking, I mean, when I tell you I fought for my marriage, I fought for my marriage, and there's nothing more I could have done. And I really thought, well, maybe if we're together all the time now in the pandemic, he's gonna still choose me. Which was just even saying that kind of breaks my heart. Like, I was just so broken, and I just, gosh, I don't want to cry on your podcast. I just didn't want to get divorced. I just. I didn't. A divorce is not what I wanted. Even though now, like, I am so wildly happy. I'm happier than I, like, was in my marriage for years and years and years. Like, it just still, like, I feel so tender for myself talking about that season. And not many people knew what we were walking through. I didn't have much community around me at the time because we didn't know what we were going to do. And so we didn't want to, like, tell people Matthew's gay, but we're staying married, you know, like, and then have to carry all their questions. And so it was a really lonely period, too.
- [18:49]
Lindsay Chrisley
But then when you're walking something alone and you feel like you can't. Yeah, that information, because I also struggled with that as well. We went through that process for over an entire year, and you don't want to tell anybody. And I know that you have following on social media and do influencing, and I think that that's like an also added pressure outside of the family stuff. Right, because that's right. Like, you have an obligation to share with your community the things that you're going through. And then you almost feel somewhat, and I hate to use the word, you feel like you're not being authentic or you're being a fraud because you're walking through all of these things that no one knows about.
- [19:35]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I had a friend say to me, you know, I think you just have to make the best imperfect choice, Jess. Like, neither of these are great choices. Like, just staying with a gay man when you know he's gay, when he has told you this truth, like, you know, the genie's out of the bottle, but you're still with your kids every day and you're still, you know, can do your lives together. But it's painful, and it was extremely painful for me, or you get divorced, which is also painful and painful for. For so many reasons. And. And so we made the decision to divorce in June of 2020. And I think it was, looking back, the best decision for both of us, but it was not one that we made quickly or easily. And I think I remember even saying, I wish Matthew would tell me he was gay, because if he was gay, this would be really easy. And then he told me he was gay, and it, like, was not any easier and. And difficult things take time. And I think that it's important to have compassion for ourselves and not judge what we did or didn't do, but just be thoughtful and just move through hard things day by day of what? What do you need? What's the best choice? And I think eventually you get enough courage to make the decision you need to make.
- [20:51]
Lindsay Chrisley
I think it was such a brave decision for you guys to do it in the way that you did. I think a lot of people walking that journey and just living in an area of the unknown, it's just kind of like, am I making the right choice? Am I not making the right choice? Well, what if I do this and then that happens? It's like, I'm definitely a personality where I play all the odds and then circling back to the same stuff. And I'm like, okay, well, I know this bit of information, and this is not going to change, but it doesn't stop the fight.
- [21:30]
Jessica Turner
That's right. Yeah. I. I am very much the same way. I don't know if, you know, the enneagram. I'm an enneagram8. And the. Oh, goodness. Well, there you go. So we both, like, control, right? And so it's like, all right, I've got this piece of information. I'm gonna play this out as, you know, far as I can. One of the greatest lessons my therapist gave me was the lesson of staying extremely present. She's like, you can't. I remember Matthew and I were still married, and I was like, how am I gonna date? She was like, maybe. Maybe we get through him moving out first. Like, we don't need to think about that right now, you know? But I was just trying to figure out all the scenarios to protect myself, particularly, I think, because I was so deeply entrenched in grief and trauma.
- [22:15]
Lindsay Chrisley
Well, and I want to touch back on something else that you said that you are so happy in your current life now. That doesn't change the fact that you can still grieve something that once was, even though you love what you're doing in the present moment.
- [22:34]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, that's very true. That's really wise to say. We can hold two things that are opposite, that seem juxtaposed, and both of those things be truths in our lives. And for me, I am wildly happy. I am thankful that I am divorced. I am thankful that I've experienced redemption in my story in so many ways. And I will always be sad that the story that I thought I was going to have in my life with a marriage for 50 years and, you know, the saint, one partner and all of those things, I can. I'll always grieve that, even though things have worked out differently and better and are beautiful, and I've learned so much. I think I'm so much healthier than I was in my marriage in so many ways. That doesn't take away from the pain of what was. And it is one of the biggest truths of life, that life will always bring us pain. And I think when we cry, you know, it just shows that we loved. And there's. That's not something to be ashamed of.
- [23:47]
Lindsay Chrisley
Or to try to squash 1000%. I know in the book that you had referenced several times that it was Matthew's story to tell. So can you tell me, is this something that he struggled with for a long period of time or was it something that he just like woke up and it was like an epiphany?
- [24:10]
Jessica Turner
I think both are true. He grew up in extreme Christian fundamentalism, and so he grew up in a home where anything other than heteronormative, a heteronormative lifestyle would be acceptable. And I remember my daughter, she was 8 at the time, and she so astutely said the first day, the day Matthew came out to the kids, daddy, if you were gay, why did you marry Mommy? And I, I remember thinking, mommy's been asking that of herself for a lot of months, right? And he said, because I fell in love with your mommy, Adeline. And you know, gosh, how can I sit here and talk about two truths without acknowledging that. That there was this deep seated knowledge, I think, that Matthew had, that he always knew that he was gay and also not. But, but. And he didn't have freedom. He didn't consider that to be maybe a possible path for him. And he fell in love with me. We fell in love with each other and we built a really beautiful life and supported each other's dreams and had three amazing kids, and we're both grateful for all of those things. And it was something that he was wrestling with privately that I didn't know I blamed for a lot of years, my body being the reason why we weren't as intimate as we used to be and, you know, created all sorts of stories in my head, as you can imagine, none of which were true, all of which I've had to rewire because when you think those things of yourself for that long, even if when you get the right fact, right, because you have told yourself the wrong story for so long, it's. It's hard to undo that quickly. And so that is some of the work that I've done. And you read that in the book, you read about how I saw my body and those types of things, and that really was work that I was doing in the rewiring.
- [26:20]
Lindsay Chrisley
Do you feel like when you look back on it now, when he came out to you as bisexual, that that was like a soft launching into him telling you, or do you think that he really was still in a state of confusion?
- [26:38]
Jessica Turner
I can't speak for where he was. I think that Matthew very quickly was able to affirm other LGBTQ people. And it took him a very long time to affirm himself. And so I think Matthew always loved me. And so if you could never love any woman but you love one woman, does that make you bisexual? I remember my therapist saying to me, look, if there were a bunch of blue crayons and red crayons on the table, all different shades, and blue is gay and red is straight, Matthew right now might pick blue, but if we look at it as a spectrum of colors, Matthew would probably pick a different shade. Maybe it's on the red spectrum, maybe it's on the blue spectrum, but it's not like, at the. At the end of either one of those. It's not those two kind of primary colors. It's something else. And that helped me understand and have compassion, I think, for Matthew and for so many other spouses who go through this. But I don't know if I'll ever really know. And something that I've learned is that I don't have to know to be okay, to have peace. And I could kill myself asking questions of thinking of things over those 16 years of, oh, was it actually this? Was it that, you know, like, I just. It doesn't matter. And so I try to not dwell there.
- [28:18]
Lindsay Chrisley
That's the Enneagram 8.
- [28:20]
Jessica Turner
Yes, it is. In both. In both. In both scenarios. Right? Like, wanting to know all the things and be like, okay, good enough is good enough here. I'm gonna move ahead.
- [28:30]
Lindsay Chrisley
And I imagine that that's probably why you struggled so heavily when he did come out, knowing that he genuinely loved you and his soul as you being a woman. You know, I'm. I'm sure that you wrestled with that a lot. I want to touch on some of the body image stuff that you had discussed, because I think that's probably a very common thing that people who are listening to this either have struggled with or will struggle with at some point in their life. I have struggled with it as well. And I'm a tiny little person, and that doesn't mean that tiny people don't struggle too. Yeah.
- [29:15]
Jessica Turner
Yeah. Gosh. I don't really remember a time not struggling with my body. You know, I grew up in the 90s and was. Always had a tummy, even when I was tiny. Tiny had a tummy. My sister was a gymnast and was built very differently than me. And I found myself, you know, caught in a comparison trap from a very young age of my body versus hers. And then later on having what I now know as a gay husband Right. And just feeling not desired for a long time in my marriage and thinking it had something to do with my body and then having, you know, a public platform. And that trap of comparison I talk about in the book, I did a therapy intensive called On Site, which has a location outside of Nashville and then a location in California. And they say that six days at On Site is the equivalent to eight months of therapy. And that was very true for me. And after, while you're at onsite, you don't have any phones, you don't have any access to any media. And so that was the longest I've been off the Internet since I joined the Internet. And I remember when I got my phone back and I turned on Instagram, I realized that I had not thought about my body the whole time I was there because I wasn't looking at pictures of anyone, I wasn't comparing it. We all were in, you know, joggers and T shirts and really casual at this experience. And I thought, wow, that is really interesting. I haven't thought about weighing myself. That comparison trap is so real. And so I have done a lot of work around my body, around seeing myself as worthy of love and desire and attraction and whole seeing myself as good enough. I think a lot of of people, women in particular, struggle with the idea of being good enough. I think I struggled with it a lot, especially in my marriage and then even in that wrestling period, like, will he choose me? Am I enough? Which looking back, was so unfair of me to be like, well, choose me over choosing your sexual orientation and something that's core to who you are. I can appreciate that now. But then I just wanted to be chosen. I just wanted to be enough for him even in that truth. So I've had to work on that a lot. A lot, A lot, a lot. And I talk about some of that in the book.
- [32:11]
Lindsay Chrisley
Well, I feel like when you're going through traumatic periods of time or things just aren't going the way that you had planned in your mind that they should go. I think that that's when those thoughts creep in the most.
- [32:25]
Jessica Turner
It's really easy for us to get trapped in lies and self doubt. And you know, I hope that in my writing of the book, as people read, I thought it would be better than this, that they see themselves in some of those lies that I told myself. They can catch themselves thinking a certain way and be like, oh no, this, I read this truth. And that's something that I want to grab on to. We actually, as part of the book Have a five day series on disappointment that I filmed with one of the clinical directors at On Site specifically because I just wanted people to get a taste of that experience and to get taste of like a therapeutic experience and sitting with a therapist. Because I do think that it's because of all the therapy that I did that I was able to come out of that with a much healthier perspective.
- [33:15]
Lindsay Chrisley
You made me want to go to On Site by reading the book.
- [33:20]
Jessica Turner
You should go. It is, it is the best eight months of therapy.
- [33:25]
Lindsay Chrisley
I'm like, okay, anybody can do something for six days. I know that sounds very casual for me to say because I feel like it's a big decision to make that type of decision being disconnected from the world like you. I am very Internet focused with everything in my work. And so yes, you're online all the time, you're on the phone all the time, you're on email all the time. And so I think that would probably be one of the hardest parts and then being away from my child for six days. But I'm definitely considering going, oh my gosh.
- [34:06]
Jessica Turner
I. It's become a joke with my boyfriend and I because we'll be watching something on TV or we'll be talking about, you know, somebody that came across in our lives and I'll just be like, they need to go to on site. They need to go to On Site. It's like my answer for everything. I think that if you have the means to be able to go, it is the most transformative experience. I have so many friends who have gone since I went and every one of them, they come out of it and they text me and they were like, you were right. I, I couldn't fully appreciate how right you were. It is just such a transformative experience. Experience. I just think that if you can go, it is, it's worth all the planning, it's worth all the angst of leaving your work and your family. I had never been away from my kids that long and not talk to them. You know, certainly I traveled for work, but not having any access to them. It starts on a weekend and goes like to the middle of the week. So that also, I feel like kind of makes it easier. And it is, it is so, so, so incredible. I feel really grateful that I did have that opportunity because I know not everyone can do it or will or will do it. But it really was impactful for me and I think changed my life.
- [35:19]
Lindsay Chrisley
I love that on site has become part of your personality.
- [35:22]
Jessica Turner
I know it really. That's a very Funny way of putting it, but yes, I would say that. I mean, I feel like I've become such a poster child for therapy. I had never done therapy prior to this experience at all. I just, just, you know, felt capable and that was for other people and I didn't need. Was too expensive. Why would I spend my time that way? And now I'm like, oh my gosh, like, everybody should have a therapist, should make that time, should figure out what their insurance covers. I found a therapist in training because it was way cheaper at first because we didn't have the means for, like, me to go to therapy, Matthew to go to therapy, us to do couples therapy every single week. We were like, how are we going to afford this? And that was a way we were able to do it. And so if there's a will, there's a way. And I think it's much better to get into therapy ahead of a major trauma because then you've like, established rapport and you know, you have a relationship with that therapist, they know you versus doing it in real time like I was doing. But I just can't rave enough about it. My family probably gets sick of me saying, well, maybe, maybe that should be something you talk to your therapist about.
- [36:27]
Lindsay Chrisley
You know, like, listen, my son and I are both in therapy every single week. And it's probably one of the best things that I've ever done for either of us. I feel like it's just such a healthy way to navigate your emotions in a safe place. And we're still working through stuff. Three and a half, almost four years later, post divorce. I mean, the grief is definitely still there. And, you know, I've asked myself a lot of times, like, when is this gonna go away? And I read about it in your book. Yeah, yeah.
- [37:05]
Jessica Turner
There are still things that come up in grief and I think it's. I think it's wise that when something comes up and you think, when is this gonna go away? You recognize that there's something that hasn't yet been unearthed. Right. There's still something there that just needs more tending to. I talk about in the book a story of my ex husband had planted stargazer lilies at my house. And those are the flowers. Yeah, they were the flowers in my wedding bouquet. And I remember the first summer after he had moved out, I like just ripped it out, but I didn't rip out the roots. And so the next year it grew back again and I like ripped it out again. And then the third year it came back again and I was like, are you kidding me? But I think that's sort of how we sometimes deal with trauma in our life. We. We think that we have tended to it because we, like, rip off the thing we can see. It's like those. Those pictures from the 90s, early 2000s, where it was like the iceberg, but then, like, most of it was underwater.
- [38:07]
Lindsay Chrisley
Yeah.
- [38:08]
Jessica Turner
And so, like, what. What do you need to tend to? And I say you as a collective. You. Anyone listening? What needs tending? That there's still roots remaining beneath the surface that you can't see. See, that is causing you pain, that is causing you discomfort. Sometimes when we have surgery, we have to go back in a second time because something was missed. Like, you're not. Especially if you're dealing with a major trauma like you and I have, like, you're not going to get it all initially. You're just not. And so I think be patient with yourself, but don't ignore those things. That's what's going to keep making you healthier and healthier, is continuing to excavate that and also putting down new soil. Right. So that new things can flourish.
- [38:58]
Lindsay Chrisley
I absolutely love that story because I am the queen of touching surface of everything and not getting to the roots of the actual problem, which is why they continue to resurface. And I took a lot of notes during that chapter to share with my therapist because regularly on a week, you know, like, lots of stuff happens in a week. And when you go to therapy, it's like you're trying to deal with the stuff that is happening, like right now.
- [39:30]
Jessica Turner
That's right.
- [39:31]
Lindsay Chrisley
And you don't have a whole lot of time to dig deep. And so I need to focus on the things I made myself a lot of notes about, things that I'm still struggling and wrestling with with my divorce. And it's more recently come up in the last couple of weeks. And I thought to myself, wow, I thought this was over. Like, this is done and I'm better and I'm healed. But I have to understand that I will probably never be fully healed.
- [40:01]
Jessica Turner
I think that you will heal, but you will have scars. And I. That is a very subtle, nuanced distinction. But I think it's important for you to say and think about not. Not here, but as you continue on your journey to think about that you have a wound that will scar over and you will have scar tissue that will still occasionally ache. Scar. A scar marks you. This experience marked you, but that doesn't mean you aren't healed. It means you are changed. It means that you are now walking around with a scar, but that doesn't mean that you don't heal. It's such a nuanced description, but for me, I don't want to walk around thinking I'm never going to heal from this. It's like, no, I. I have scars from this. Right.
- [40:57]
Lindsay Chrisley
Well. And it's really, really amazing to me that this stuff can resurface in your current life. That feel so happy too, right?
- [41:07]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, sure.
- [41:08]
Lindsay Chrisley
Be careful about what creeps in.
- [41:10]
Jessica Turner
And if it creeps in, be aware of it. I think that comes with the healing, with the scarlet. It's like, huh, why am I feeling this way? I said that to my boyfriend this weekend. Something was bothering me and I said, I'm just like, unpacking. Why am I feeling that way? Am I feeling that way because of. And then I listed things, some of which were from my past, like, what is prompting this? You become a really good student of yourself. I feel like as you're healing from trauma because you get additional language, you learn to not ignore things that you have historically ignored. Right. And then that brings about healing and growth and freedom, honestly, as you do those things.
- [41:57]
Lindsay Chrisley
Absolutely. I want to go back to the body stuff a little bit. And you had talked about in your book about incorporating movement into your day and prioritizing that. That is something that I did. I go on walks very regularly and I normally listen. Listen to worship music whenever I walk. Something that I find peace in. But I think it's also good for my physical, but also my mental health. And I also do Pilates four to five days a week. And I've kind of gotten beat up on the Internet a little bit about that. Like, oh, the only thing she talks about is Pilates or walking or, you know, whatever. But I think people don't understand the correlation between your mental and your physical.
- [42:45]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, that's very true. I was somebody who never enjoyed working out of any kind. And during the pandemic, I was such a. A statistic. I bought a bike like everybody else, started doing the Peloton app and really fell in love with it. And I was thankful for that because I started to notice the idea of movement being medicine and that really being true for me and how I felt better, not just physically, but emotionally, when I would move my body. And there's so much research around it that one really can't argue with it. I mean, it has been proven again and again that movement heals you, that movement is necessary for your heart, for your body's physical health, but even more so, I think for your mental health and your clarity. And it was incredibly important to me and continues to be an important part of my story. So I say go. You do all the Pilates, all the walking. Like at the end of the day, you're going to be the one in your 90s living a great life because you did that. Like you're putting, you're investing that now and that's going to pay off dividends so far into the future. Like, good for you. I think it's amazing.
- [43:58]
Lindsay Chrisley
Are you still riding your Peloton?
- [44:00]
Jessica Turner
I am. I'm doing more peloton strength now than riding the bike. It used to be that all I did was ride the bike and I wasn't doing any strength and now I'm doing both. So I'm doing like the Peloton app, I would say like three to four days a week, like 200 times a year. I'm doing something moving my body related, which is just a wild improvement to zero. A few years ago.
- [44:25]
Lindsay Chrisley
I want to touch on you had discussed in the book about loneliness epidemic in America and investing in friendships. I would love for the listeners to hear your take on that. I have found it to be incredibly helpful post divorce. I did not invest in friendships as much when I, when I was married because my whole life was my husband and my son and what we did together was either us three or with his family. And so I was not really taking the time to spend quality time with friends outside of that. And so I had to grow what felt like an entire new identity when I got divorced. And yeah, wow. I know that you had talked about in the book about making, you know, individual time to be able to do that. And I think a lot of people probably listening to this struggle with finding time in their day. My parents always used to tell us growing up, everybody has the same 24 hours.
- [45:35]
Jessica Turner
Gosh, there's so much I could talk about friend, friendship and the importance of it. I talked about in my first book, the Fringe Hours, which is all about self inflicted care for women. And then I talk about it again in Stretch Too Thin, which is a book for working moms. Then I talk about it in I thought it would be better than this because we need community. We are not meant to live alone. We are not meant for our only community to be our significant other. But because of, I think the way America is with us having our own houses and being really siloed and, you know, like we just aren't communal in the way that other Generations were. We have to be really intentional about it. And I'll call my friends and I'll say, hey, I only have five minutes. But I figured five minutes was better than no minutes. And every time, like, we're so glad we talked on the phone for even five minutes, even caught up in some, you know, small way. And it isn't difficult. It just requires a little intention to pour into the people that you have in your life. And I've always been that way. Friendship has always really mattered to me. And I don't say that in a way of, like, I'm better at this than most people. I just say it matter of factly, that friendship really matters to me. And.
- [46:50]
Lindsay Chrisley
Your book, you're better at it than most people.
- [46:53]
Jessica Turner
It's kind of you. I have. I'm fortunate to also have a lot of really great friends. And so when my life was blowing up, I went to a few fa. Safe women in my life to talk to about it. And it was because I had poured into them that I think I was able to do that, that I was able to feel safe. If people get the audiobook of, I thought it would be better than this. There's actually a conversation in there with my friend Angie. We've been friends for 20 years, and we talk about being a friend to somebody in grief. And that's only in the audiobook, but it's such a special conversation.
- [47:31]
Lindsay Chrisley
We both cried in it.
- [47:32]
Jessica Turner
We both laughed during it. And I think you get a taste of what friendship looks like for me. But I just want to encourage people who are listening that if you have friends, which you surely do, to send them a text message and say, hey, was thinking about you today. Listen to this podcast today. And it made me think of you. Just wanted you to know you were on my mind. How are you? Whatever. Like, just a small, simple act like that can change somebody's day. Send a card. It takes, like five minutes to send a card. But think of what it feels like. Like, when was the last time you got a handwritten card from a friend? Like, never, right? And if you work during the day, like, you probably get a lunch break, is there a friend that you could meet up with for lunch? You know, like, there's lots of different ways to find time for community, but it is really worth fighting for a lot. And I'll just say one more thing. A lot of women who are moms will say to me, oh, I can't do that because I. I have kids. Like, my kids have activities or this. You know, I I've been, I have a book club that I've been doing for, I don't know, a decade every other month for a decade. And people are like, oh, I wish I could do that. But you know, my kids, I've got to be with my kids. Like, my kids are not having a less than childhood because six times a year I get together with my girlfriends for two hours. Like they're, they're not, they're actually seeing healthy behaviors modeled. I could be like on a soapbox about this. I think it is so important for our kids to see us investing in adult relationships so that they do the same because they're going to need friends and they're going to, their life will be richer for doing that. I just don't think our entire world should only be our children. We're multi dimensional individual people. And I can be an incredible mom and be an incredible friend. Those don't have to be mutually exclusive.
- [49:18]
Lindsay Chrisley
I love that you talked about, you know, you having a full cup so that you have more to pour. And I think that's so true. After divorce, I went through such a lonely period of time feeling like most people that were around me didn't understand and then trying to navigate the shift in time where I had him some days and his dad had him some days, that was so incredibly hard. And I felt like for at least a year and a half, I got so trapped in when I had him, I had to spend every waking moment with him. And I turned down everything on those days, like, no, I can't have Jackson. And now I've gotten so much better. But I think it just came with time and working through it in therapy. I have a college babysitter that comes sometimes every other week, sometimes twice a month, sometimes three times a month. And she'll take him to go and do something fun like go to the jump park or take him to his favorite dinner place. And that frees up my time to either be able to do something self care that I haven't been able to do or go to dinner with a girlfriend.
- [50:35]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, absolutely. And that is, he is, I'm sure, thrilled whenever she comes. He loves it like, you're making his life better. Like you're not making it worse. Like, I just. My kids are when they were little, they're teenagers now, but when they were little, they were never sad about a babysitter coming over. That was like the best thing ever. And so I think that for divorced people, a lot of times what you're saying is true. It's like, oh, well, I only have my kids four days a week instead of seven. And so these four days, I need to be totally out. Guess what? Like, the four days, like, they have youth group one night, they're going to a party. Like, they don't care now. You know, like, again, teenage life. But it just doesn't have to be all or nothing. And I think about it as, like, well, now I have four days to show them that their mom is more than a mom. Right. Like, so I. I applaud that. I think that is really healthy good behavior for you, for your son to see. Like, it is. That is not something that you should feel ashamed of or feel like you're less than or anything like that. Right. Like, your son's childhood is the sum of all things. Not. You don't pick and choose. Like, oh, the nights I was there. Had. Didn't. Wasn't there. Have more value than the nights I was there or whatever. Right. Like, look back on your childhood. How many nights do you remember with a babysitter? Like, we don't remember those anyway. Right.
- [52:00]
Lindsay Chrisley
And it's like, who cares? I mean, if we're gonna be out here shaming people for, you know, using a sitter or doing book club with your girlfriends, like, find something better to do. I don't know.
- [52:10]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, for sure.
- [52:12]
Lindsay Chrisley
I just love that he has an interaction with someone else. Right.
- [52:15]
Jessica Turner
Like, right. Yeah.
- [52:16]
Lindsay Chrisley
I think that's super important for their growth, too. And so there's a lot of benefits for both people or, you know, you with three kids. Three children, and then you. That, you know, outweigh the risk.
- [52:30]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I have my kids Wednesday through Sunday, so I have them every weekend. Like, occasionally, schedule. Oh, you have this. Right? So, I mean, occasionally mama's gonna need to go out on a Friday night or Saturday night, you know, like, it just. It is. It is the way that it is.
- [52:47]
Lindsay Chrisley
So I would love to also discuss. You talked about discovering that you are your own home, and I just loved that because I feel like we can get so wrapped up in feeling like we need a partner to have a home. And that's something that I have really, really worked on in therapy. I was with my ex husband from the time I was 19 years old until I was 31, I think. And so that's such a long period of time to feel like you found a home in someone else, and then it's just gone. And I think it's super important to recognize that you are your own home.
- [53:32]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, I talk about. I share A story. People can actually find it on my Instagram because that's the clip from the audiobook that I have on one of my recent posts. But I talk about the idea of Matthew being my home and hugging him after we were divorced and being like, how am I ever going to do this? Like, this is the only home I've ever known. And then I started dating and I met men that I thought, oh, this could be my home. So then my thinking evolved a bit and it was like, you can have more than one home. It doesn't have to be like you only have one home your whole adult life, like other people can be your home. And then I broadened it some more and I thought, oh, well, I feel at home doing the work that I do and I feel at home on my friend's porch and like you can have feel at home in lots of ways. And then finally, I'm a slow learner. I realized, oh, actually none of these things are my home. I am my home. And I'll never forget when I came to that realization. Shortly after I had a therapy session and I told Stephanie, my therapist, who I write a lot about in the book. And she was like, I have been waiting for you to say that. And it was just this aha moment that I am my home. Me. Other people can be a part of my life and my story and I can make a home with them, but that doesn't change that my home is in myself. And I think when you come to that realization, if you are a divorced woman and you're dating, when, when that happens, you are going to have the best relationship with somebody else who also lives that way. And so I think that's why the relationship I'm in right now has been so beautiful and healing because we both are whole individuals independent from one another, but we love being together, right? We feel like home and being our best selves with one another, but we aren't dependent on one another for that home. And it's a very subtle but distinct difference that makes all the difference in the world.
- [55:38]
Lindsay Chrisley
I feel like that is the healthiest type of relationship when you can be individually whole and somebody else is bringing their self whole to the situation because then you don't have to worry about like the missing, the missing pieces. And I think that a lot of people go into relationships and I'm guilty of it, of trying to seek something in someone else that you lack. And it's a really hard navigation. For sure.
- [56:06]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, for sure.
- [56:08]
Lindsay Chrisley
I also loved your little story and I want to go and do the pottery thing that you were talking about in your book about the shards of glass.
- [56:16]
Jessica Turner
Huh? Yeah. There's a place in Destiny. I think there's other similar places, but the one that I write about in the book is in Destin. It's called the Shard Shop. And they have these big buckets of glass and you take those bits of broken glass to create art. And I loved that idea of beauty coming from broken things and just such a beautiful picture for what life can be.
- [56:44]
Lindsay Chrisley
Absolutely. Can you tell us, are you doing any book signings? Are you doing any type of tour?
- [56:52]
Jessica Turner
Yeah, sure. So people can get my book wherever books are sold, whether you want to buy it on a big box store like an Amazon or Target, or you want to call your local independent bookstore and get it that way. It's also available on all audiobook platforms, so audible, Libro FM wherever you want to get it, if you prefer that way. I'm doing a really small hometown tour at the end of April. You can find that information at jessica and turner.com tour but I'm going to be visiting Chicago and Milwaukee and Oshka. Gosh. So kind of just that, that strip up there in the Midwest. And then you can find me on Instagram at Jessica N. Turner and connect with me on there. I would love to just connect with folks and hear what you're thinking of the book and if you've gotten it. I am the only person in my DMs, so if you message me, I will definitely see it.
- [57:42]
Lindsay Chrisley
I give it five stars. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it and I hope that you have a blessed day.
- [57:49]
Jessica Turner
Thank you. You too. What a joy.
- [57:53]
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- [58:23]
Adam Rippon
Hi, I'm Adam Rippon and this is Intrusive Thoughts, the podcast where I finally say the stuff out loud that's been living rent free in my head for years. From dumb decisions to awkward moments I probably should have kept to myself. Nothing's off limits. Yes, I'm talking about the time. Time I lost my phone mid flight and still haven't truly emotionally recovered from that. There might be too many sound effects. I've been told to chill. Will I? Unclear. But if you've ever laid awake at night, cringing at something you said five years ago. Congratulations. You found your people. Intrusive Thoughts with Adam Rippon is available now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [59:05]
Jessica Turner
Look.
- [59:05]
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- [59:59]
Jessica Turner
Experian.