A (5:50)

like, over the time of you making the switch in an SOS moment. Did it, did your classroom kind of like evolve the longer that you've taught it? Like, how do you go from teaching a psychology class to now your entire curriculum is based around sex and uncomfortable?

B (6:07)

Yeah, no, that's such a good question. And the answer is yes, 100%. It has absolutely evolved. I joke that first quarter that I taught, I absolutely had some imposter syndrome. I was on the phone with a professor the night before every class, just having her download the material into my brain. And I would go in the next day and just be able to know the content that was in that particular lecture really well, but it was not really. I mean, I had taught sex and there's a lot of psychology and social psychology, of course, and I had studied intimate relationships and long term relationships in my training as a psychologist. So for sure I had some of the background, but there was a lot of it. I was just learning from her more deeply. And then what happened is I just really dove into the literature. I read every academic paper I possibly could. I started going to sex research conferences. I started trying to connect with who are the leading sex researchers in the field to get their insights and perspectives. I'm constantly updating the curriculum with new material, either that's coming out within the literature or to reflect larger shifts happening in society overall. And then I've increasingly brought in guests who guest speak or panels of people, because that's just such an important element to this, right. I can teach them all about the data, of which there is plenty, but they need to be able to see this translated into what actual people who are living very diverse, different types of lives really bring to the conversation, right? So I bring in guests who are ethically non monogamous. I bring in, I bring in sex workers, I bring in a panel of trans people. I bring in a dominatrix, right? And so there are guests that come into this class that are certainly, you know, when I read the syllabus to people, they're like, whoa, I can't believe who you're bringing in. And I've been very lucky that the University of Washington has been tremendously supportive. But I think that there's just so many lessons that we can be learned that can be learned from learning from all these diverse people who are bringing in different perspectives, perspectives just showing how much variability there is. And, you know, we assume we're all the same when it comes to sex and that our bodies respond the same way and that our tendencies and relationships are the same. But the reality is there's so much individual difference. And when we can have human beings in really bringing that alive, I think it just kind of makes the material come together a lot better.

A (9:02)

It's so interesting because when I decided to take this interview, it used to be a very uncomfortable conversation for me because I grew up in a Baptist household. And so we never really had conversations around sex other than talking about, just don't do it. Like, right, don't have sex. We're not going to have open conversations about it. My dad would pull up STDs online and, like, let us look at the photos of what they look like. More like the scare tactic type situation. And it's a conversation that we're not gonna have, but we're gonna have it in a state of fear to some degree. So just.

B (9:43)

Right, don't do it.

A (9:45)

And, you know, we were taught to save ourselves for marriage. And of course, when I got married, he's now my ex husband, but I had had sex with him prior to marriage. So from my raising, I do believe that somewhat it was maybe, like, unhealthy, but I didn't realize it at the time. But because I had already had sex with him before marriage, I'm like, I've got to marry this guy.

B (10:11)

Yeah. Yeah. And I have. There is so much. I mean, that is just, you know, that kind of purity culture. It just permeates our society so deeply. Right. I mean, and even if you just look at this from a legislative point of view, right, we don't have any federally mandated sex education, which means that the decision about whether it's being offered or not in schools is completely left up to the states. And states have very different laws on their books about the types of sex education. Right. A lot of states don't require that sex education be. Be medically accurate. Most sex education, even if it is medically accurate, is only kind of teaching sort of what your dad was teaching you. STIs or unplanned pregnancies. Right. With a fear of what's going to happen if you get pregnant or, you know, just basically everything that can go wrong with sex. And it's really a fear tactic. And the reality is that, you know, when we look actually at countries like the Netherlands that have really positive sex education that is medically accurate, and they're talking about topics beyond just reproduction and how not to get an sti, they're talking about pleasure, they're talking about sexual communication, they're talking about healthy relationships, they're talking about consent. In the classroom. And what we find is that in those countries, they actually have fewer STIs, fewer unplanned pregnancies, less sexual assault, and a higher percentage of women who say that their first time sexual experience was positive. So giving people information is empowering. And yet we live in this culture that has very puritanical roots. And so many people are growing up in either deeply religious or deeply conservative environments where they're really taught that sex is just dirty and should never be talked about and should never be brought out into the open. And so I just think it's so important to be having these conversations so that people feel informed and are given a sense of power within their own lives to choose the types of sexual relationships and sexual experiences that they want and that they don't want.

A (12:41)

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I will never forget the first time that I ever had sex. That it was, you know, after the fact. I carried so much shame because I'm, like, supposed to be doing this. It was a choice that I made to do it and felt like it was the right time to do it. But based off of my raising, it wasn't the right time because I wasn't married. You know, I was in college. I was a freshman in college. And I'm like, is this supposed to be what it is? Because I didn't even had. Never even had conversations about sex at all.

B (13:22)

Yes. And that's just so common, and that's what I see, even in my classroom is the vast majority are coming in with little to no sex education and so much fear. Right. And yes, it's sex, and everyone's kind of giggling and feels like, okay, this is going to be, you know, sort of fun, sort of taboo, but underneath that is a lot of fear and anxiety. And so really, I feel like my job as an educator is to give them information so they can feel relaxed and feel like the power is theirs to make sexual decisions that really serve them.

A (13:59)

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B (16:28)

I think, you know, first of all, that's really extremely common. So I have an 11 year old, a 16 year old and an 18 year old and for my 11 year old we kind of got the same note home, right? And the one thing I just really want to tell parents is yes, have conversations for sure about sex with your kids. But leave it to the professionals, the people who are trained who have the actual science to, to be also providing an important element of this. Right? Because the reality is, you know, it's a little bit like if you, you know, I mean, homeschooling for other subjects is great, but you know, why is it that we trust teachers to teach math and science and history, but when it comes to sex, we assume that we should be the only expert in their lives, right? And it's, it's, again, it's because we assume that sex is dirty and dangerous. But the reality is that when you can have teachers who are educated about it and really teaching kids about their bodies, really teaching kids about what healthy communication looks like, really teaching kids about what sexual consent looks like, I mean, these are topics that you probably don't completely understand and know yourself, right? And yet they're extremely important. And so it's just really important to allow, you know, your child to be able to have access to this. And, you know, my daughter came home and told me about, you know, there's one little girl whose parents did opt her out, and so she sits out of sex ed class every day. And it's. I just, My heart goes out to that little girl, right? Because, well, now she's different. Yeah, now she's different and now she doesn't know. She's the one that's in the dark. She's the one that's not gonna have all of this really important information. And so what's that gonna mean when she goes to think about having sex for the first time? She's going to go, she's going to know less. She's going to feel less confident speaking up. She's going to feel less confident saying yes to the things she does want and no to the things she doesn't want. You know, she's going to be less informed in terms of contraception and exactly how to use it properly, which most adults don't completely even know. Right. Don't totally actually understand. So it's, you know, it's, it's, I think, really a shame. And parents are really, you know, I just, I have a sense of compassion. I have three kids. I understand the need to want to protect them, especially in a world that just seems so sex saturated. I mean, we're seeing shows like Euphoria, right, that just make us feel like it's just a really dangerous world out there. But the reality is, yeah, there certainly are a lot of things about the sexual landscape today that are very scary and different than it was 20 years ago. But you need to allow them to have formal sex education so that they're equipped to be able to deal with those worlds and not left in a position where they don't have information and therefore are kind of left powerless.

A (19:44)

I feel like we're all, you know, somewhat a product of our raising. And then when we become parents, we get to make a choice that, you know, are we Going to raise our children in the way that we were raised, or we, you know, gonna make that switch for things that feel a little bit healthier. And for me, it was like a fine line when I got that letter, because I'm like, number one, he's not going through puberty yet. Like, is this a necessary conversation to have yet? But then to your point, like, pulling him out and all of the other kids going to this, he's already going to feel different. Also, I, like, have probably trauma from my raising being like, okay, well, you just don't need to do that. Like, we're. We're not having. We're not doing boyfriends and girlfriends and all of that kind of stuff. We're not even at the place to be talking about sex. But, you know, kids are growing up so much faster today that I find that from the time when I was growing up in the 90s, I feel like kids are so much more advanced than what I was when I was 13 years old. It's like, these are the necessary conversations. They were necessary then, and they're definitely more necessary now. Right?

B (20:54)

Yeah.

A (20:54)

I feel like kids are going through puberty so much faster now. Don't really know why that's the case, but I feel like that that is something that needs to be talked about. But also, you know, I wanted the curriculum for myself, for what he was learning, because if he's going to be learning it in school, then I need to be having the conversations at home.

B (21:13)

Yep, absolutely. Absolutely.

A (21:16)

At what point do you feel like, was there any defining moment for you that you realized how misunderstood the topic was? Was it in the SOS Moment once you became a professor, or was it prior to that?

B (21:31)

I think, you know, when. I think when I dove into the class and the literature, I really started to realize that, you know, there was just so much that I was learning. Right. I mean, and that's really. Right. Why I wrote my book. Book. Because I realize it's not just kids that need sex education. It's adults. Right. And so, you know, for example, in my book, I talk about my, you know, McNichols hierarchy of sexual needs. Because, yeah, to really become informed about sex and to feel empowered and improve our own sex lives, you know, we need to acknowledge my hierarchy mirrors Maslow's hierarchy, and that, you know, we have the base, which is, you know, we have our cognitive and physical sexual needs. And then once we have a firm handle on those, which really means understanding your body and understanding the brain as it relates to sex, and then we get into the emotional and social realms, which is really about communicating with a partner, whether it's in the context of a long term relationship or in, you know, a hookup or casual sex, if that's what, you know, the phase of your life that you're, you know, engaging in, like what that really looks like, like, and then getting into the top of the pyramid, which is about your self expressive and creative needs. Right. And which is really the idea that for all of us to be having better sex, we need to be leading with curiosity. And I think the curiosity was what really led to the class being successful is that there's just always more to learn. And the more you learn, the better off you are. Right. And I think that, you know, with my work, I'm really trying to bring it out into the world because I think people desperately need information about their bodies and about how to make sex a priority in their relationship, because it does matter. And we do have research showing just how much sexual satisfaction and relationship satisfaction, how highly correlated those two things are, and what communication in a relationship looks like to, you know, prioritize sex with a partner. So it really, I'm just excited to bring this to a larger audience because I think that it's something we all need, not just our kids.

A (23:58)

I'm like, I want to come and take your class. I was a business student and I initially was a social work major. And once I got into some of those classes, I was like, oh my gosh, like my heart's here, but like, I don't think that I could go through some of these things that, you know, social workers actually go through. So maybe it's not a good fit. So I switched to business classes, but I don't ever remember seeing a class like yours even offered at the university I went to. Is that common for this type of class?

B (24:31)

Yeah, I mean, certainly 20 years ago, 30 years ago, you know, when we were in college, there definitely were not classes like this being offered. There certainly are more classes today at universities like this being offered. I mean, mine is the largest in, in the U.S. so they're not, you know, generally as, as comprehensive. But there's so many states now that, you know, I mean, I don't think there's any way I could be teaching the class I'm teaching, for example, at a university in Arkansas or Texas or places that just don't really have the types of political environments that would be able to tolerate it. Yes, there certainly are universities and colleges that are doing a great job of offering comprehensive sex ed now to students, but there are also a lot of places that aren't. It's just very inconsistent. It's very mixed.

A (25:30)

I do have a quick follow up question regarding your kids and mine because I feel like they're kind of in the same range. If you were telling other parents how to have those conversations at home, if they are taking these reproduction and sex ed classes at school, how do you kind of pick up front? And it's probably a stupid question, but how do you pick up to make the child feel comfortable at home to have those conversations?

B (25:57)

So there's a couple of things, right? And when I look at my three kids, they are so different just in how comfortable each of them feels talking to me about sex. Right? So my oldest, I'm like the last person she wants to talk about sex with, right. My youngest, she actually asks a whole bunch of questions, right. She's really interested in it and it's, you know, so for her, right, which is easier. It's just really important to give honest information. Right. And so, for example, you know, call genitals by their real names. Don't call them, you know, don't give them pet names. That suggests that the real name is so embarrassing or taboo, you can't say it. Don't, you know, make sure that you're, you know, listening to their questions and yeah, just giving sort of the fullest answer that you can in an age appropriate way. Meaning that you're, you know, not, you know, you're speaking at their language. Right. In a way that they can understand and not be overwhelmed with information. I, you know, for my older two, I have to be a little bit more sneaky about it. So one thing that I often suggest to parents that's worked well with my older ones is, you know, I'll come home from work and I'll be, you know, my husband, I'm very lucky. He's the one that cooks, cooks and cleans up in the, at the kitchen at night. So, so I know, I know. So he'll be cooking dinner and, you know, I'll be like, you'll never believe what one of my students asked in class today. And he'll be like, what'd they ask? And then we'll get into a conversation about a topic. And I can kind of see, you know, with my older ones, we're all kind of around the kitchen at night. Like I can see her kind of like, you know, listening in a little bit. And so having her, you know, sort of get the information in that way works another really Good place to have conversations with kids about sex is in the car. Right. Because it's a little bit easier. You're in a safe space. There doesn't have to be awkward eye contact. You can, you know, and the thing is, even if they're not directly asking questions, they still, trust me, they're still curious. And so the information that you're able to give out is good. I don't recommend just thinking about this as like sitting your kid down and having the talk. Right. It should not be that. It should be sort of like little things kind of sprinkled throughout. And then beyond that, I think just having an open attitude about it yourself. Kids are going to model that. I mean, I feel like I'm so convinced as a parent at this point that so many kids just learn more from watching their parents seeing how their parents respond to sexuality. And so I think there's sort of. If you're embarrassed to talk about it or are always bringing up the dangers, you know, they're going to kind of absorb that. So, you know, the more comfortable you feel and the more comfortable they see you feeling, they're going to act. They're going to absorb those feelings things as well.

A (29:07)

It's so true. Because I feel like I would, number one, never have felt comfortable enough to have sex conversations with my parents because it was more a fear driven topic. But then also you want to have those conversations, but you don't feel comfortable in that environment to be able to do it. So then where's your support system?

B (29:30)

Right, right, exactly, exactly.

A (29:33)

I want to make sure that I'm doing that in my home. And I totally agree with you. It's so awkward. Like, let's sit down and talk about sex. Like, no.

B (29:41)

Yeah.

A (29:43)

Do you see at all a divide in your work from sex ed, from like the north to the south? Is there, like vast difference

B (29:55)

the in terms of students that are coming from the north versus the South? Yeah, of course. Yeah. As well as students that are coming from countries that are international.

A (30:07)

All right, y', all, we're going to take a quick break to talk about a new product that I have been using within the last month, and that is Momentous Fiber Plus. I know a lot of people talk about energy recovery, performance, and they usually jump straight to training protein or supplements. But one of the most overlooked pieces is actually gut health. And if your gut is not dialed in, everything else struggles, struggles to work the way that it should. And that is where Momentous Fiber plus comes in. Momentous Fiber plus addresses one of the most overlooked foundations of long term performance. And that is gut health. Fiber is not just about digestion. It is a key driver of gut health which directly impacts nutrient absorption, energy stability, recovery focus, mood, and overall performance. And when our gut health is not dialed in, other supplements and training habits do not work as well. You could be doing everything else right, but without a strong foundation, results do fall short. And fiber is often the missing link. And that is why Momentous believes in a relentless commitment to fundamentals and doing them differently than they have ever been done. Fiber plus is built to support the entire gut health process. Right now, Momentous is offering my listeners up to 35% off your first order with promo code Southern Tea. Head to live Momentous.com and use promo code Southern Tea for up to 35% off your first Order. That's live Momentous.com promo code Southern T. So can we get into how the process started with your book? How long did it take you to write and if people were going to purchase your book, what would they be able to find in there?

B (31:53)

So I wrote this book to literally help everyone be having better sex. And as I mentioned earlier, there's the hierarchy of sexual needs, because I think so many of us want to be having better sex, but we don't really know where to start. Right. In other words, we kind of need a roadmap. So the book took me several years to write because it is based not just on my own opinions or experience with like just a handful of patients, but really on studies that are looking and interviewing thousands and thousands and thousands of people. Right. So for example, when, you know, when I am looking at that data, for example, you know, early on in the book, we're talking about anatomy, but we're all. It's also talking about pleasure. Right. And we actually have studies that are looking at things like, you know, the types of touch and the types of techniques that work best for women and for in particular. Right? Yeah. Like we're used to thinking, oh, sex is supposed to unfold, like you kiss and you make out and then there's penetration. And then, you know, maybe he has an orgasm. Maybe you do, and then it's over.

A (33:11)

Right.

B (33:12)

And so on the maybe. Exactly. And so I can key goal of this was really just to, you know, expand people's definition of sex beyond just penetration. I mean, first of all, only 18% of women can have an orgasm from penetrative sex alone. The rest need some kind of clitoral stimulation. So I get into that. Right. And this book really talks about the Types of techniques, not just, again, from opinion, but from studies done that interview women about this and, you know, distill it into things that people can actually try. Right. And so there's this idea that the first, the foundational step you need to take is to understand your body. Then I get into things like the pleasure cycle, right. So most people think that pleasure is just a neurological event that happens. Like you bite into the cookie, it tastes good, that's pleasure. But it's actually a cycle. It has three different phases. Wanting, liking, learning. And to be able to really optimize pleasure, you need to know what the roadblocks are in each of those three stages of the pleasure cycle. So you can sort of unpack those roadblocks and become more sexually present during sex, which is again going to increase pleasure. And then we get into the, you know, the middle pyramid again, those social emotional needs that have to do with, you know, understanding, you know, what do you do if you feel like you're looking for a relationship but, you know, hookups are all that's available.

A (34:46)

Right.

B (34:47)

What do you do? How do you navigate, you know, if you're, you know, on online dating apps and you're, you know, trying to figure that world out and then, you know, and then also, you know, what, what if you're newly single, right. There's so many, first of all, a quarter of 40 year olds have never been married and there's so many people who are, you know, maybe divorced and out of a relationship and single. And I didn't want to write, you know, there's so many books out there that are just for couples. I really wanted to write a book that empowers that person too, right. In terms of being able to communicate what they want, you know, during a sexual experience and gives you scripts for actual things to say and then. Yeah, gives, gives you scripts. Exactly. Questions that you should be asking. Right. And then it gets into long term relationships and it talks about, you know, things like intimacy, dates. And it talks about what are the habits of couples that are in long term relationships that report high levels of sexual satisfaction. Like when we look at thousands and thousands of participants in these studies, the ones that are the most satisfied, like, what are they doing? Right. And so we get into like what their habits are, which, you know, range everything from, you know, novelty. But what kind of novelty? How much, you know, how much novelty, what does novelty even mean to, you know, the types of communication that they use and they set the mood. But how do they set the mood? What does that even really Mean, and then it gets into that final stage of, you know, maybe, you know, kink isn't something you'd ever try, but it's kind of fun to read about. And even if you don't see yourself going into a sex toy store ever and buying a whip, maybe, maybe you consider, you know, light spanking or, you know, a little bit of, you know, every sexual experience, whether there's, you know, just a leader and a follower, involves, you know, a little bit of back and forth in terms of an inherent power dynamic. Right. Which is so, you know, it's really talking about kink is existing along a continuum. All of us are actually kinky to some degree or another. That's something people don't really know. And understanding that and what it means to you can really be helpful and

A (37:08)

then understanding that, like.

B (37:10)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (37:12)

How?

B (37:13)

Yeah. So, I mean, part of it begins with understanding what your sexual fantasies are, right? So looking at, you know, and when we look at Americans, most popular sexual fantasies, fantasies, they, you know, they involve things like, yes, passion and romance. Because we all love to be desired, right? Wanting. We want to be wanted. That's a huge aphrodisiac. But, you know, so is, you know, power and control. Threesomes are an incredibly popular sexual fantasy. Fantasizing that, you know, you are, you know, really taboo things, whether it's public sex or even that you're a prostitute. Right. Or that you're being sexually coerced. Right. All of these things that we fantasize about that seem so taboo are actually incredibly common. And it points to the fact that just because we fantasize about something doesn't mean that we want to act it out in real life. Right? It's just a fantasy to be enjoyed. It's perfectly normal. It's nothing to be a shame ashamed about. But yet it can also provide sort of ingredients for things you might want to bring into your sex life. That could feel like a safe challenge, right? Something that kind of brings in, you know, I call this idea micro novelty. It's a little bit of bringing in, you know, a small amount of change that makes your sex life feel fresh, feel a little bit different. You know, takes away sort of the over predictability that so many of us can fall into, but doesn't make us feel like we have to be a whole different person. Right. So, for example, think about, you know, maybe what your most common sexual fantasy is. Is, yeah, maybe you do fantasize about, you know, a little bit of bdsm and, you know, and so maybe. But Maybe, you know, the idea of doing that is overwhelming. You know, maybe just try having your partner, you know, pin your hands above your head once. Right.

A (39:15)

Did you get into that in your book on how.

B (39:20)

Yes, I do. I mean, I have a whole chapter on it and it ranges everything from sensation play to how to, you know, to kinky behaviors and BDSM that don't involve pain. And then it gets into all of the kinky behaviors that do involve pain. So I talk about the whole continuum, right, because there's people out there that are kinky that do want to get into, you know, more of the hardcore stuff. And that's great. As long as it's consensual, right? As long as you're into it, your partner's into it, there's nothing wrong with that, Right. There's nothing that we need, you know, about that to try to stigmatize this.

A (39:59)

Out of curiosity, is your book Separated for people who are single or on dating apps and then in long term relationships?

B (40:09)

Yeah, so. So part one, understanding your body and sort of the mindset, right. Which really, you know, the mindset piece coming down to like, how to achieve sexual mindfulness, which is, you know, this idea of being really attuned to your body, sort of how to get into that mental state that is common for helpful for everyone, right. Regardless of the types of sexual relationship that you're in. The second part that talks about the emotional and social needs, the first two chapters of that are talking specifically to audiences that. Well, the first chapter is talking about consent and communication. So the communication part is in the first half of that chapter. Again, are these scripts that couples can use to understand, you know, how to communicate about, you know, I advise couples, for example, to think about the best sex they've ever had together. Right. Because there's so much research showing that we do a lot better when we start with positive feedback over negative feedback. Right. It's really hard to feel criticized, and it can lead to feelings of rejection in the relationship. And so thinking about, you know, were we on vacation? Have we just had a conversation where we felt really emotionally connected? Were you away and had just come back from a trip? And so there was a little bit of separation and we were excited to see each other again, right. What was sort of the atmosphere? So in other words, what were the feelings in that amazing sexual experience? And what things did you try down to what types of sexual positions did you try? What types of techniques, Right. What kinds of erotic touch did you use? And when you can kind of identify, okay, what worked really well, how can we recreate that? Now that can also provide a springboard into thinking about other types of techniques or things you might want to try that could recreate that. Whether that means getting a hotel room in the city in which you live just because you realize that you have incredible sex when you're sort of away from home and take a step back and can have sort of this night that's just truly focused on the two of you, you know, or it's, you know, that maybe you felt really emotionally connected. Make a date to sit down, right? Make regular dates to really lean into each other, learn about each other's love maps, meaning, you know, research from the Gottmans showing that it's about understanding your hopes, your dreams, down to like the specifics of your hobbies. Right. So there's, there's that. But then I also talk about my consent manifesto that is geared towards more single people, right. Understanding that we need to redefine consent not just as the, you know, respect for our physical bodies, but for our emotional and social ones too. And how do we, you know, in a culture of chill, bring back emotions and kindness into these sexual experiences? Because the reality is that for people who are single, right. A friends with benefits or casual sex might be the reality of some of what they're, you know, interested in and, or what's, you know, what, what sort of what they're exploring until their next long term relationship. Right. That's. So I just think it's important to really be talking about, well, what kinds of things can you say to make sure that you're not going to come out of that experience feeling really lonely and empty. You know, what kinds of things can you do to make yourself feel, you know, make sure that going into it you're both on the same page and feeling clear about what the experience means. So that one of you isn't. Felt like, isn't left to feel like you were duped or let on. Right? And so, and then getting into, you know, then it shifts in that second part to long term relationships. Right. And looking at, you know, the research that shows that yes, people planning sex does work, right? We, but it shouldn't be. Let's set a date on Tuesday night, you know, and in the middle of unloading the dishwasher, jump into bed. No. Right. We know that couples in long term relationships are, you know, they put a lot who are report high levels of satisfaction, they put a lot of effort into setting the mood. Right. And so, you know, talking about an intimacy day you know, where you come home from work and the first, first thing you do is give your partner a 20 second hug and a seven second kiss. Because we know those things predict closeness and connection. And you sit down, you ask about your partners, you know, what's going on in your emotional universe today. Right, that kind of, that's a really good question. It sounds a little woo woo, but it's getting at something that's beyond just, well, what happened today? Because, you know, I mean, I've been married for 22 years, you know, very happily, but you know, when you have kids, it's like, it's exhausting and you become, you know, you're a team, which is great, it's great that you're a team. But you need to have a space in your intimate life that's just for the two of you that doesn't involve like the, you know, McNichols Corporation or the, you know, like the corporation that kind of is what you're running in your household.

A (45:24)

It's hard for people, you know, I mean, it's people to separate all of those things when you're just doing everyday life.

B (45:31)

It is, it really is. And it's something we put on the back burner. Right. But the reality is, you know, as I tell people, you know, your kids deserve parents that have a healthy intimate life.

A (45:45)

So

B (45:47)

yeah, I do.

A (45:49)

Since we're talking about like more long term relationships and your experience, what do you feel like the biggest factors that cause women's sexual desire to change over time in those long term relationships?

B (45:58)

Well, first of all, a lot of people are surprised to hear that women's sexual desire declines faster than men's over the course of a long term relationship. Meaning that they are, that novelty is more important for them. Right. So we tend to think novelty matters more for men, that they're going to get bored. No, actually it's women who get bored more for quickly. And so, yeah, so that's first of all just understanding that novelty is important. Part of that is that if you are just getting bored of the same kind of sex over and over and over again, that's not that pleasurable. Of course you're going to stop desiring sex. Right. A lot of times I hear, you know, from women like, oh God, should I even bother? Like I'm just kind of over it. It's like, well that's, you know, nobody is going to be craving bad sex sex. Right. If we increase the kind of pleasure that you're having during sex and make it feel better and make you more likely to experience pleasure and connection and orgasm. You're probably going to crave it more often. Right? So, yeah, so there's that. The second thing is just the sheer level of exhaustion that so many women in midlife are facing. Right. And this has to do with, you know, larger demographic things happening. Women are getting educated at higher rates than men. Women are advancing in their careers at a faster pace than men. Right. And so we see women advancing, but there's sort of this irony because even though they're advancing, they're taking on a lot more, but we still see them doing the majority of household labor on average. Now they're still, still are men for sure, who are, you know, doing a ton. Right. And. And this is absolutely not describing every couple by any means, but they're just. I think there just are a lot of people out there, women especially, who are just exhausted. Right. And so it really becomes, you know, finding ways to lighten her load. What can you outsource? What, you know, can you let go of perfection and, you know, this idea that you have to be the perfect mom, meet everybody's needs all the time, that the house has to always be perfect, and can you get your partner to lean in a little bit so that you kind of can ease those feelings of exhaustion? And then, you know, we come to like the most underappreciated aphrodisiac of all in any long term relationship, which is gratitude. You know, just when your partner comes home at the end of the day, both of you should thank each other for something that you did that day. Right. Thank you for, you know, for getting the kids from school today. Thank you for working so hard, you know, today to, you know, at your job, to, you know, to help the family. Thank you for taking that call when I had that hard conversation with my mom and letting me vent. You know, just whatever it is, thank your partner. Because when we feel easy to get.

A (48:57)

Yeah, miss that, Right? Yeah. It's doing all the things that we're trying to do to get through the 24 hours of this day. And the last thing that I would imagine, the normal person. And I don't feel like I'm normal. What is normal? The. The last thing is when somebody walks through the door. It's more like, oh, my God, reprieve. But I'm not gonna thank you for all of the things.

B (49:23)

Things.

A (49:23)

It's like the acknowledgment, right?

B (49:25)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And you know, that can. I think you can especially feel that way if you are holding on to resentments that your partner is really not appreciating everything that you're doing. Right. And so it really, in those cases, I think you kind of need to sort of sit down and, you know, maybe lay out for them like, this is everything that I'm doing. And I don't really feel. I feel a little bit taken for granted. And there's ways to frame this so that it maybe doesn't feel so accusatory, because a lot of this is just coming from the culture we live in, Right. We just live in a culture that's assuming that, you know, typically women are going to be doing most of these different jobs. And it's all of the invisible labor. You know, things like communicating with the teachers and the, you know, the, the, the. The venmoing for the, you know, or being the volunteer parent for the field trip or, you know, all of these different things that are making the dentist appointments or remembering the parent teacher conference. There's just so many things that go into.

A (50:36)

And I know some guys do it, but yes, for sure to say that for the majority, those things that you're discussing describing are most moms.

B (50:46)

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it is your job, though, as a mom, too, to speak up, because you, you know, it's. I mean, look, it's so hard. I know, I know. And especially when you feel like you're not sure how it's gonna be, how they're gonna respond, Right? Because if we feel like they're gonna make immediately be defensive, then it's just going to make us feel like we need to shut down and like there's. It's just a fruitless exercise. But, you know, maybe if people can have, you know, especially women can. Can say to their partner, like, I want to be honest with you about how I'm feeling, but I really need you to listen and know that I'm not. This isn't just about me trying to blame you. It's. It's more about just how I feel. Right. And then just really lean into those I statements, like, I feel exhausted because I'm doing this and this and this. And I feel like I don't have time for myself. And I feel like I've sort of lost a little bit of the ability to focus on things that light me up in my life. Right. And really find those things. Like it's. It's up to you to really figure out, is there? I think every woman especially, you know, needs to have that one thing in their life that kind of lights them up. Whether it's a, you know, it could be a career, it could be a volunteer activity, it could, it could be a book club. Right.

A (52:17)

It doesn't have to be a huge thing, you know?

B (52:20)

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. But those, those types of self care and those types of things that just give you a feeling of autonomy and a feeling of pleasure. Right. I mean, this is where pleasure, we think pleasure is just sexual pleasure, but there's all different forms of pleasure. Right. You need to be, it's kind of like putting your own oxygen mask on first before you're able to be there for your partner and your family. And so, you know, by doing that, you know, you're going to be able to explain how you're feeling to your partner, but in a way where it's not feeling like it's just criticism, but rather it's explaining how you feel and then allowing space for you both to talk through how you can fix that. Right. Because there is a solution. Right? There's always a solution. It always is going to involve some creative thinking and pro creative problem solving between both partners. But it is important that you speak up because we can't expect husbands or anyone to be mind readers, right? It's really. Yeah.

A (53:28)

You have a entire chapter or talk about communication in your book a lot. Because it's so crazy at 36 years old, when I'm listening to you, I'm like, wow, the communication element is extremely important.

B (53:45)

Extremely important. It really is. Yeah. And I spend whole chapters talking about that and, and giving scripts for how people can really, you know, lean into that. And I mean, it's even, it's even things, you know, going back to this idea of, you know, developing a love map for your partner, it's learning that when they make a bid for connection, right. Whether that's expressing excitement about something or, you know, just kind of saying something that clearly is hoping for a interested response from them. You want, you know, nobody is going to meet every single one of their partners bids for connection, but for the most part being responsive to that. Right. I don't think people realize how important it is to their relationship and to their sex lives to be responsive, not just to hear your partner, but to just really actively listen to what they're saying and get excited about whatever it is that they're excited about or like understand their frustration and you know, be there for them to like really ask them, you know, how are, you know, how are you feeling about this? And what are, you know, are you, have you thought about, you know, maybe how you could, you know, solve the problem, you know, or do you want my help or do you want me to just listen? Right. Asking for the kind of response that the person's looking for. So often I think men especially just want to jump in and solve the problem for you. And sometimes as women we really just want to be able to vent and have them listen. Right. So being able to express that. But yeah, I think it's just, there's just so many subtle ways, you know, I talk about in my book that these different types of intimacy that exist beyond just sexual intimacy, right. I mean things like non sexual physical touch, things like aesthetic intimacy, right. Which means appreciating some form of beauty, whether it's a sunset, an incredible dinner, a piece of art, or just admiring your kid gymnastics meet like I did with my husband last. You know that, you know that oh my God, she just did four back handsprings. We did that. We created that.

A (55:56)

So you, do you believe that love can exist without intimacy? Because sometimes I'm like given different scenarios, like a nice dinner away from children in a quiet space. Sometimes I feel more loved in a situation like that than.

B (56:15)

Absolutely. And that's exactly what I'm trying to sort of say with these different types of intimacy is if the only time we touch our partner or the only time that we're kind of expected to really connect with them is when we're having sex, we're. That's going to leave us feeling empty and unloved and also it's going to make us not really want to have sex. Right. So yeah, I mean, going out and you know, having, you know, spiritual intimacy, which, yeah, it could be a shared belief system around that's, that's religious, but it could also be completely non religious. Just talking about, you know, values and things that are important to you and really feeling like someone understands like something that you really feel strongly about and having that person express interest in that. Right. Or things like all the way back to.

A (57:08)

And I'm like, yes, now thinking of this.

B (57:12)

Yes, exactly. And so all these different forms, you know, or a non sexual physical touch, right. I mean, couples aren't touching each other enough, right? We're coming home at the end of the day, we're exhausted. One person's upstairs on their laptop, the other might be downstairs with watching a show. If you're not even in the same physical space as each other, you're not. You know, great sex requires that your nervous systems co regulate, right. And really what that means is that you be around each other that there be, you know, whether it's cuddling, whether it's, you know, snuggling on the couch. My husband gives me foot rubs every night when we're watching a show after dinner. Right. It's like my favorite thing. I know.

A (57:58)

And a foot row. What are you.

B (58:01)

Right. But I, you know, I mean, I think it's. It's when you lean in and you really are. Are grateful, you know, I show a lot of gratitude. It's. And feel seen and appreciated and admired in your relationship, it makes you more. Makes you more want to do those things for your partner. Right.

A (58:22)

So I have another question. Do you feel like intimacy can improve after trust has been broken?

B (58:29)

That is such a tough topic. Right. And, you know, the answer is I feel like there's sort of two directions where a relationship goes after a betrayal. Right. The first, obviously, is there's just so much anger and so much hurt, and it's been, you know, something that's just not even about the affair, but just representative of a total rift in the relationship overall where it just leads to its dissolution. But there can also be times when a relationship grows stronger after a betrayal. Right. And, you know, one of the things that is both fascinating as well as a. As a little concerning is that even happy people, even people who are happy in their relationships cheat sometimes. Right. And so when, you know, when that happens, you know, you have to look at the reason why. Sometimes it's more about that person feeling like, is this. Is this, you know, I've reached midlife. Is this all there is in my life? And they were, you know, those are the people that report I felt so alive and. And so different and, you know, I. Something new. Exactly. And sometimes that's just a reflection of your feeling stuck in your life more than that actual person that you've, you know, had the betrayal with, you know, and. And, you know, that's going to require, you know, not necessarily fixing, like, yes, absolutely. You know, fixing, you know, talking about things in your relationship, but also figuring out what's going on for you at an individual level. Right. And being really committed to figuring out how do you work your way out of that feeling of being stuck, you know, without having to turn to something that's really destructive to that, like, like an affair to the rest of your

A (60:29)

relationship and any of that in your book.

B (60:33)

I do talk about that in my book. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I just think it's. They're so, you know, look, I mean, we couples betray each other in small ways every single day. Right. I mean, we, you know, betrayal isn't just sexual. It can be feeling let down or feeling disappointed because, you know, your partner did something that didn't quite, you know, sort of missed the mark or like left you feeling misunderstood or left you feeling underappreciated.

A (61:04)

Right.

B (61:04)

And so we, even if it's not a full blown sexual affair, we need to be able to figure out how to talk about those things with our partners. But yes, I mean, I do. I absolutely think that when people are aware, I highly, highly recommend couples counseling in those situations. Right. And really having a therapist that can help you talk through these issues, you know, because sometimes the person that's been cheated on isn't necessarily the only victim. Right. I mean, a lot of times, yeah, both people are kind of to blame for what's led to, you know, a dynamic in the relationship that led one person to go cheat. So if both people can kind of take accountability for, you know, whatever the rupture was and take active, intentional steps to fix it, I think it can be really helpful.

A (62:00)

Yeah, I think the therapy, like going to therapy with someone else, it's hard enough sometimes to go by yourself.

B (62:08)

Yes.

A (62:09)

But then to be in any type of betrayal, and I totally agree with you, everything is like a cause and effect. So, you know, accountability on both parts and why something happened. But I think therapy is just one of those things that it's so hard and so many people are hesitant to do it once a betrayal's happened. Yeah. Because they are so broken, you know, other person's probably so broken. So, like, how do you get out of that? You have to do the hard communication and what you're talking about.

B (62:40)

Exactly. It can be really, really hard. And sometimes, you know, sometimes the affair is happening at a point where so much has already happened in the relationship, relationship that's destroyed it, that it's not even the affair that they're breaking up over. It's. It's just kind of like the final straw. Right. And so in those cases, back. Yeah, it's a straw. It's literally the straw that broke the camel's back. Yeah, exactly.

A (63:03)

Okay, so for listeners that are picking up you could be having better sex, what is the one perspective shift that you hope changes how they think about intimacy and desire long term?

B (63:14)

That pleasure is important and that you can own your pleasure and that it is important in your life to foster this area of your life and that there are research backed tools and perspectives that are in my book that can absolutely help you to have the type of sex that you want to be having and the types of relationships you want to be having.

A (63:40)

Okay, perfect. Can you tell everybody where they can find you on socials or if you have a website website and where your book's available?

B (63:46)

Yes. So my book, you could be having better sex, is available everywhere books are sold. And you can also follow me on Instagram or TikTok @nicolethesexprofessor. And also please consider signing up for my newsletter, which you can find on my website@nicolethesexprofessor.com well, thank you so much

A (64:09)

for joining us today. I really appreciate it. And I will make sure that I link everything up so that people can purchase your book, because I'm going to be purchasing it myself.

B (64:18)

Yay. Thank you, Lindsay. This was wonderful.

A (64:24)

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