Are We All Just High Functioning Codependents Disguised as High Functioning Women? (Maybe.) Here’s What To Do About it With Terri Cole

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Are We All Just High Functioning Codependents Disguised as High Functioning Women? (Maybe.) Here’s What To Do About it With Terri Cole"

Release Date: October 15, 2024
Podcast: The Spiritual Hustler
Host: Jessica Zweig
Guest: Terri Cole

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Introduction

In this illuminating episode of The Spiritual Hustler, host Jessica Zweig engages in a profound conversation with Terri Cole, a renowned psychotherapist, relationship expert, and author of Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High Functioning Codependency. The discussion delves deep into the concept of high-functioning codependency (HFC), exploring how it masquerades as success and high performance among women today. Together, they unpack the psychological underpinnings of HFC and provide actionable strategies for healing and fostering healthier, more interdependent relationships.

Defining Codependency vs. High-Functioning Codependency

Terri Cole begins by distinguishing traditional codependency from its high-functioning variant. She explains that while traditional codependency often involves enabling dysfunctional behaviors in others (e.g., supporting an alcoholic partner), HFC is more pervasive among successful, high-achieving women who overextend themselves in various aspects of life.

Terri Cole [10:05]: "Codependency is you being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the circumstances, the finances, the relationships of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace."

The Prevalence of HFC Among Successful Women

Jessica shares her personal experiences with burnout despite achieving significant professional milestones, highlighting how societal expectations and the internal drive for success can mask underlying codependent behaviors.

Jessica Zweig [13:02]: "Look at you. You're a boss, you're a career woman, you've created an incredible platform... What is it about high functioning women that have such a deep tendency for high functioning codependency?"

Terri elaborates that HFC often manifests as over-functioning, over-giving, and an inability to delegate, leading to a constant state of stress and eventual burnout.

Psychological Roots and Behaviors of HFCs

Terri delves into the psychological foundations of HFC, emphasizing how early childhood experiences and societal conditioning contribute to these behaviors. She discusses how HFCs may not identify with traditional notions of codependency, making it challenging to recognize and address.

Terri Cole [16:21]: "I'm a recovering workaholic. I stopped drinking young and then it switched to being physically fit and just working like an animal..."

Terri also introduces the concept of the HFC blueprint, an architectural metaphor for the relational patterns established in childhood that govern current behaviors.

Impact of HFC on Personal and Professional Lives

The conversation highlights how HFC affects both personal relationships and professional environments. High-functioning women may find themselves controlling, micromanaging, and struggling to set healthy boundaries, which can strain relationships and impede personal fulfillment.

Terri Cole [20:46]: "At its core, codependency is an overt or covert bid to control the outcome of others."

Jessica relates these insights to her own experiences with burnout and the struggle to balance success with personal well-being.

Transitioning from HFC to Interdependence

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on moving from high-functioning codependency to interdependence. Interdependence is portrayed as a healthier alternative, characterized by mutual support, trust, and balanced relationships where individuals can rely on each other without sacrificing their own well-being.

Terri Cole [34:07]: "Interdependence is where you have trust... it's about allowing yourself to receive and allow others to support you."

Terri shares a personal anecdote about learning to receive support from her husband, illustrating the emotional liberation that comes with embracing interdependence.

Practical Tools for Healing and Setting Boundaries

Terri offers practical strategies for overcoming HFC, emphasizing self-compassion, boundary setting, and emotional regulation. She introduces the concept of "Yam Yucking" as a means to acknowledge and manage judgments that serve as illusions of control.

Terri Cole [43:36]: "By imagining that life is black and white... it gives us the illusion of control... to avoid our own feelings and situations."

Jessica discusses the challenges of setting boundaries without feeling guilty or fearing disappointment from others. Terri underscores the importance of prioritizing self-care and allowing oneself to make mistakes without judgment.

Terri Cole [38:23]: "You have the right to make mistakes, to course correct and to change your mind."

Notable Quotes

• Jessica Zweig [21:35]: "I already wrote that in the book."
• Terri Cole [29:38]: "We are doing this process with radical curiosity and radical compassion."
• Jessica Zweig [36:55]: "You can do it."
• Terri Cole [43:35]: "What does it protect us from? ... Our own feelings, our own situation."

Conclusion

This episode of The Spiritual Hustler offers a compelling exploration of high-functioning codependency, particularly among successful women. Through Jessica Zweig and Terri Cole's candid dialogue, listeners gain valuable insights into recognizing HFC patterns and implementing practical measures to cultivate healthier, more balanced relationships. The conversation serves as both a mirror and a guide, encouraging women to redefine success not just by external achievements but by inner peace and genuine interdependence.

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Additional Resources:

• Terri Cole's Book: Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High Functioning Codependency
• Jessica Zweig's Books: A No Guide to Increasing Your Self Worth and Net Worth by Simply Being Yourself and Light Work: Reclaim Your Feminine Power, Live Your Cosmic Truth, and Illuminate the World
• Upcoming Retreat: Claim Your Light – Register here (Link provided in show notes)

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Join Jessica Zweig and Terri Cole on this transformative journey towards healing, empowerment, and redefining what it means to hustle spiritually.

Transcript

[Jessica Zweig]

Welcome to the Spiritual Hustler podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Zweig, multi seven figure serial entrepreneur, best selling author and branding and business coach. And this is a show where we are redefining the word hustle. Reclaiming our true feminine nature of magnetism and putting down the self judgments and shame around loving to work and making a lot of money at it. On this show, you're going to learn how to stop hustling and start spiritually hustling. By pressing play, you are now part of a new movement of women who don't hustle for money. We hustle for meaning. We don't hustle from lack. We hustle for love. We don't hustle from survival. We hustle for humanity's thriving. We hustle toward healing the ancestral programming of fear and step into a new understanding of safety in the body to receive this shift isn't going to only heal your life. It's going to make you a whole lot richer too. This is the Spiritual Hustler podcast, foreign.

[Terri Cole]

Souls. And welcome back to the podcast. I am your host, Jessica and I am so excited to be with you as always, but I am especially excited. I'm excited about every interview. I'm just naturally excited every time I get on the mic to bring to you these conversations, whether they're solo episodes with just me or with my incredible gorgeous guests. Spiritual hustlers of all different kinds, really here to help you navigate how you thrive as a feminine body on Gaia, this planet, Mother Earth, at this time, amidst the matrix and the patriarchal constructs that we've all been wired to believe is normal, that is real and really helping you unpack your own unconscious beliefs and shadows. When it comes to how to build a business, how to make money, how to show up online, how to build a brand, how to lead a team, and also how to find your purpose, how to find your mission, how to connect more deeply to your spiritual self, which is really who you are. You're just here having a human experience. And on the Spiritual Hustler podcast, we, we talk about it all. We really, truly do it through the lens of sisterhood, of feminine empowerment, going back into the feminine codes that live inside of our DNA that have been dormant and sleeping, thinking that we are, for lack of a better term, the the lesser gender, when really women led this planet from the dawn of civilization. But we have been programmed throughout humanity's evolution to operate frankly out of our true nature. And I speak from experience. If you're new to the show, welcome. If you're not new welcome back many of you who have been following this show, following Journey online and through my Instagram, and who've read my books be My first book, a no guide to increasing your self worth and net worth by simply being yourself, which was inspired by the personal branding methodology I created and trademarked in my second business, the Simply Be agency that I would end up selling just a few months ago after running it for seven years, to my second book, the Light Work, reclaim your feminine power, live your cosmic truth and illuminate the world, a USA Today bestseller that just hit shelves a few months ago. Even following my journey, being an entrepreneur, being a boss babe, following the path that I was conditioned based on looking at the world around me to think was the aim, the ultimate goal for fulfillment. And I hit those milestones. I checked off the boxes, I won the awards, I built the big team, I sold the business and at the peak of it all, I wanted to die. I was completely cashed out physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually burnt out, diagnosed with depression, and had to really be brought to my knees to recognize not only was I in certain ways out of alignment with my true calling, which is really what I'm doing now in my incredible coaching business, serving female entrepreneurs across the world, helping them build their own businesses in a feminine way, blending strategy with spirituality, hosting retreats across the world. I've got my next one coming up In January of 2025, just a few months away. We're over halfway full called Claim youm Light. The link to register and learn more is in the show notes. But really it was that moment of realizing for what if I feel this way internally, but externally, the world keeps telling me, you're winning. Keep going, keep slaying, keep crushing. Why? Why was there a certain point where I wanted to burn it all down? And that's because I was not spiritually hustling. I was hustling. So on this show we are having really important conversations because every single woman, literally every single woman that I talk to, that I work with, that I serve, has experienced or is experiencing burnout. It is an epidemic. And there are a lot of reasons why that is. I clearly just addressed a few and I talk about them all the time. I call it the patriarchy. But there are deep seated psychological reasons as well that is rooted in trauma, especially when it comes to being a woman today in this world that I am frankly not an expert in. But my guest today is one of the most formidable licensed psychotherapists and global relationship and empowerment experts and authors in the world. And maybe you've heard of Terri Cole. She is the author of the Boundary Boss Incredible book and her brand new book, Too Much A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High Functioning Codependency. Now you might hear the word codependency and think of immediately your ex boyfriend. I do. Or just toxic relationships in general. Your romantic partnerships, potentially your relationships with your parents, have a somewhat residual projection of what quote unquote codependency really is. But Terri is revolutionizing, frankly, with her groundbreaking research in her new form of codependency that I think you're going to relate to. High functioning codependency is prolific amongst high performing women. You probably might pride yourself on what you call high performance. And underneath it is an unhealthy attachment to either ensuring that everyone else is taken care of before you, that the whole world approves of you and loves you, that you have all the answers and can do it better than anyone else around you. Maybe as I'm rattling that off, you can relate. I can.

Hi.

Raising my hand for a friend right here. And I read her book. I read too much. I devoured her book. And you're going to want to go pick up this book because if you are listening to my show, I would put money on the fact that you are a high functioning codependent as well. And there is no shame. This is all love Judge Free zone. Terri herself is a recovering high functioning codependent. And this conversation is going to truly not only illuminate you, but give you such deep permission to love yourself, to prioritize yourself, to surrender to the peace that is available to you when you unhook from the desire to put everyone, everything, your career, your success, your image, your reputation, your likability, your control aside, and to truly come home to yourself. That is a deep journey. And Terri, as the expert that she is, walks you through the process. This is a revolutionary book, one that I believe is desperately, desperately needed in the collective right now for women specifically. And there is really no one better to write this book. For two decades, Terri has worked with a hugely diverse group of infamous celebrities, clients, Fortune 500 CEOs to stay at home moms. She has a gift in making complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable so that her clients and students achieve sustainable change. She inspires over a million people every single week through her blog, social media platforms, signature courses, and her incredible podcast that I was actually on the Terri Cole show. And I just know this conversation is gonna open your eyes.

Yes.

But my intention is that it sets you free. That's what all of these conversations are here for on the Spiritual Hustler podcast. The Spiritual Hustler message is here to set you free, to heal, to come home to yourself, to live in alignment, to thrive, to fill your own cup first, because the world needs you full and vibrant and healthy, mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically. Because you're not only a spiritual Hustler sister. Listening to my podcast, I know you're a light worker. We got a big job to do right now. This is a heavy place, Earth. And those of us who are awake know that we have to fuck shit up for the greater good. And we need our energy stores to do that. We need our sovereignty to do that. We need our health to do that. We need our power to do that. And so, without further ado, here is one of the most beautiful conversations I've ever had on the show with my incredible friend, Terri Cole.

[Jessica Zweig]

Okay, Terri, we're going to dive right in, right on. Because I've. I've thought about how I want to use my time with you and I. It's going to be an interview, but it's going to be a part therapy session for me. Is that okay?

[Terri Cole]

My fave.

[Jessica Zweig]

Okay, great. Let's just. Let's just go. Well, my first question for you is what is the difference between codependency and high functioning codependency?

[Terri Cole]

Let's just establish what is codependency according to moi?

[Jessica Zweig]

Okay.

[Terri Cole]

It is you being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the circumstances, the finances, the relationships of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace.

[Jessica Zweig]

I feel seen. Continue.

[Terri Cole]

And so part of, if we look at the traditional what, what we have been thinking that codependency is.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

Is the very Melody Beatty codependent no more. I must be enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent and long suffering spouse. So my clients, who are you?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

And everyone and like me, like super highly capable, successful women, did not feel identified with the old school assumption, definition, myth about boundaries.

[Jessica Zweig]

Can I pause you right there?

[Terri Cole]

Sure. I'm sorry, you mean about codependency?

[Jessica Zweig]

About codependency. I. I was taking a walk the other day with a good girlfriend of mine. She's a boss, she's got a huge job at a big company here in Nashville. And I was listening to her talk about her struggles at work and I've been deep in your book and I was like, well, what's coming to me? My friend Terri Cole wrote this book called Too Much and it sounds like high functioning codependency. And I tried to explain it. I'm not you. And I bless my friend. She kind of paused. She's like, oh, no, no, no, I know what codependency is. I've dealt with that. That's not me anymore. But the way she was describing how she was relating at work. Check the box. So continue. Because I think you're. You're spot on.

[Terri Cole]

So part of the reason why was there a need or why did I feel a need to create a new definition, to add to it, to expand it, is because I couldn't help the people in my practice, the women, if they couldn't see themselves in the problem where they were like, what, codependent tear? Yeah. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money, I'm managing all the people and all the process and all the things I'm doing, everything. I'm the rock in my family of origin. I'm the rock in my, my girlfriend's circle. Everyone comes to me. I book the Airbnb, I make sure we get together every six months. I do all. I'm divvying up the check at dinner, like, or whatever the thing is. So what I realized is that my clients didn't know what codependency was. And so in expanding. Because it also was a different flavor, Jess, of codependency, it was my own personal flavor, my own experience in life of being. Feeling overly responsible or the feeling stays in the outcomes of other people.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

And being so. When you think about what is the difference when you're a high functioning codependent, the irony is that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it's still codependency.

[Jessica Zweig]

I have the chills. In reading your book, you tell your own story about your relationship with your sister and how you were trying to manage her dysfunctional relationship. Look at you. You're a boss, you're a career woman, you've created an incredible platform. All of the women, all of the examples of the stories of your clients, and I'm sure you used alias names, but they were all high functioning women. Entrepreneurs, lawyers, like influencers who came up from nothing, who were supporting their families, women who were running their husband's lives and their children and their career. What is it about high functioning women that have such a, I guess a deep tendency for high functioning codependency?

[Terri Cole]

Well, part of it is that when you think about the way that we've been raised yeah. Right. If we think about socialization, most of us were raised and praised to be self abandoning codependence, as I like to say. I don't like to, but it's the truth.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

And so that looks different. If you are a highly capable person, you're just doing so much. It's a lot of over functioning, over giving, overdoing. And what's interesting about it too, if we think about it from a boundary standpoint, in my first book, Boundary Boss, I talked a lot about how we can establish boundaries with other people. How do we set limits, how do we whatever as HFCs, as we like to say we. A lot of times we are the boundary tramplers without realizing it.

[Jessica Zweig]

Oh, of our own accord.

[Terri Cole]

Yes. Well, we are trampling on other people's boundaries because we have ideas for you. We can't stop auto advice giving. We can't stop fixing the problem you didn't ask us to fix, but we see it and we just really would like your life to be a little bit more harmonious for our sake. Thanks.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Jessica Zweig]

Okay. So when you say in your book that when we heal from high functioning codependency, we experience more time with VIP is our most important. People like the true relationships that nourish us, allow ourselves to be human, have more spontaneity in our lives, have more rest and relaxation in our lives, and have more mental alertness. I was reading that. Okay. And these are all symptoms that I experience from my burnout, which I talk about very openly. And it's really the inspiration for this podcast. And I read your book and I'm like, I think I'm high functioning, codependent on my career.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Jessica Zweig]

And my success. And you talk a lot about relationships in the book, but I feel like I've, I've really come so far with my burnout and I think establishing better boundaries. And I've, I've healed a lot from that time, but I still have such a tendency to place my value and my worthiness on my success. I know a lot of women listening to my show feel the same. And how can you help construct our relating to our careers in a healthier way, not just our relationships?

[Terri Cole]

Well, I write about this in the book because you bring up a really good point. And so many of my clients, and myself included.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

I mean, I'm a recovering workaholic. Right. I stopped drinking young and then it switched to being physically fit and just working like an animal, which I always, I always was like super ambitious. But again, it's a Mood. It's a mood altering activity.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

When we think about what. What are we seeking? We're seeking the dopamine hit of success. We're. We're seeking the acceptance. We're seeking the, the accolades and the adoration and all the things that come. We know this. But when you're an HFC actively there's. What I've witnessed over 27 years in the trenches with my therapy clients is there's a glass ceiling of our own making from these behaviors because we are bleeding bandwidth. And there's only so much now when you're 25, there's a certain amount of excess bandwidth you may have when you're 55 or 50 or 45 or 60. The truth is, you know, you've already hit the perimenopause menopause wall.

[Jessica Zweig]

I'm in that.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah.

[Jessica Zweig]

Oh my God. It's real.

[Terri Cole]

I'm through it though. So don't worry, you can get through. Okay. But the bottom line is that, that the work alism that you're talking about and that glass ceiling. Because even if you have all the money in the world and the most success, if you are working all the time, if you are over functioning, if you are over giving, if you are kind of micromanaging, if you don't know how to delegate, if you are not allowing other people to add value to your life because you're a shitty receiver, because we're such excellent, we're just Olympic givers and we are just shit receivers. And when you don't have that give and take, yeah, you are on a one way train to bitter land because there's only one fucking stop on that train no matter what you say. Like we can say, no, that won't happen for me. And yet you don't have the power, neither do I, to change what happens in our emotions and our body and our minds in if we over give and over function and we just keep doing it, sooner or later the people who become the villains are the people in our lives we don't look at. You know, it's like Betty is entitled. Betty has some effing nerve as opposed to is it Betty or am I just splitting myself out on a silver platter for Betty? Yeah, right. When you're an over giver, there's a tendency to attract takers and there's an over functioning and under functioning dynamic in codependency and codependent relationships where I say, and I talk about it in the book, that in my 20s I could take a completely capable boyfriend and turn that mother effer into an under functioner in two weeks or less. It was like a special skill where I would be like, I got it, I got it, I got it. Ah, like never allowing, not wanting. And I remember when Vic and I, my husband, 27 years. Well, we've been together 27 years, married 25 when we first met. And he wanted to do all these things for me. And I remember talking to my mother, like, I really like this guy. But what he wants to do doesn't make sense. Like it's not logical. He wants to drive from Jersey to pick me up on the Upper west side, just to drive back to Jersey when I could just hop on the subway and take the train to his house in 20 minutes. Like, why wouldn't I do that? She was like, terry, why are you blocking this guy from doing nice things for you that he wants to do? How about Jess can say yes.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

And I would. And she said, and if you don't, she said, you will. If you need to do it all yourself and it all has to be done your way, you'll end up like me, doing it all and doing it all alone.

[Jessica Zweig]

That is, I think, a universal experience we have in all, all sorts of relationship. And you talk a lot about our responses to relationships when it comes to high functioning codependency in the fight flight, freeze or fawn capacity. And God, that over giving and not knowing how to flex the muscle of receiving is something I get tripped up on constantly because it gives me a sense of safety.

[Terri Cole]

Of course.

[Jessica Zweig]

And.

[Terri Cole]

But let's talk about why.

[Jessica Zweig]

Yeah, let's talk about why, Terry.

[Terri Cole]

Let's talk about why it gives you a sense of safety and all of us who are over functioning and controlling. Because at. At its core, yeah. Codependency is an overt or covert bid to control the outcome of others. Right. So the sense of safety is this. If I allow you part of my thing with Vic before we were really together together. And I remember talking to my therapist and saying, if this guy, like I knew I was done for because I was already in love. And I was like, oh no. I remember saying to her, if this guy doesn't turn out to be who I think he is, I actually think I might die. Because she was like, why don't you let him do. There was something he wanted to do for me. And I was like, I don't know if it was something sexual, there was something that it. All I knew is that whatever it was, it made me feel too vulnerable. I didn't want to do it.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

And she said, why? Why don't you want to let him do that for you? And I said, because he already has the power to annihilate me.

[Jessica Zweig]

I already wrote that in the book.

[Terri Cole]

Yep.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

And it felt so real, like the life and death ness of that, the. The threat. So when you say it's hard to receive, it makes us vulnerable to allow others to do for us. It makes us vulnerable to be in a receiving position. If we think about it from a macro point of view.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

Like receiving. Right. Think about divine feminine. Think about sexuality. Think about, like, all. All the ways of receiving. And if we don't do it right, it's. We don't have the mutuality. This is where codependency is instead of interdependency.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

Which is what we're going for, hopefully.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Jessica Zweig]

I want to click into interdependency.

[Terri Cole]

You.

[Jessica Zweig]

You're talking about something so deep.

[Terri Cole]

Right.

[Jessica Zweig]

Like, if I don't control, if I allow myself to receive, I will die. That's in my body. And you talk about the HFC blueprint in the book, which is so brilliant. And by the way, the book has all of these practical tools, the loving reminders. It's really feeling like you are my personal therapist walking me through my life in this book.

[Terri Cole]

I said this to you before we started recording.

[Jessica Zweig]

You have a tone in the way you write that is the most compassionate voice and safe voice as a true sister and friend walking you through your own experiences. And at the same time, it's very practical and applicable. And you can take the tools from the book and implement them by journaling, by practicing them in real life. And one of my favorites was the HFC blueprint. That really takes you back to trauma and childhood. So why don't you explain what that looks like?

[Terri Cole]

So when we're talking about an HFC blueprint, remember, codependency is a relational issue. So this is really what we're talking about, is your relational blueprint. What did you learn in childhood? We have to go back to the scene of the crime, so to speak. Sorry to families of origin, but this is just how it is.

[Jessica Zweig]

No, it's real. Really good metaphor.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah, we gotta do it. So this is what we learned. So there's lots of ways that we learn it. So this is all information. You can think about blueprints as like an architectural blueprint for a house that someone else designed, like decades ago. And if we don't look for them in the basement, which is the unconscious mind we just think, this is how it is. This is how relationships are. This is how I'm supposed to be.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

So I walk you through the process in the book where you look at this is how my beliefs, limiting and not came to be about relationships, about whether why I need to be overly responsible or whether I'm a people pleaser or whether my value feels like it's only connected to my accomplishments and not just. I'm not allowed to just be and be value, be valued. So once you start to look and go, oh, this is what this is about, but this is not mine.

[Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Terri Cole]

This is not the way I want it to be. This is not the way that I want to relate in my life. Because part of the. The little known part, and I said it before, but we don't talk about it that much, is that it's really all about control. And nobody likes to think of themselves as controlling. Right. People will always say, you know, is this codependent or caring? I'm trying to figure out. I'm like, try codependent, caring or controlling. Because that's actually what it is.

[Guest]

Right.

[Terri Cole]

We, like, love you. We love our friends. I don't want my friend to marry the big jerk or the idiot or I don't want my partner to mess up this deal. And so I feel like they're making the wrong thing and I'm trying to convince them to do something different. And the bandwidth that we are bleeding from doing that is really detrimental. And if you think about your family of origin, you, you know, you. You know where you learned.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

What you learned. So if you had a people pleaser, let's say a maternal impactor, as I call them, because it could be a mom, it could be a stepmom, it could be an aunt, whoever raised you, foster mom. If they were a people pleaser, you internalize. Oh, femininity. Being a good person, being a good woman means giving this shirt off my back to anyone. And of course, I love to say, betty, keep your effing shirt on, because we got to be discerning.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

Right. And. And yet this now, when you go through your own HFC blueprint, you now start to have choices where you go, oh, yeah, yeah. That's not for me.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

That's the way it was for my mother. That was the time that she was coming up. That was the 60s, the 70s. It was a different time of life.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

And I'm not being disloyal to her by doing it differently, because unconsciously, a lot of times we Stay stuck. Because there is an unconscious fear that if we do it better, then our parents will be kicked out of the tribe or the adults who raised us, you know?

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Jessica Zweig]

That's so good that, that you have these questions throughout the book and you're like, maybe some of these apply. All of them are just one or two of them. And if so, you're an hfc. And that's what I was saying. I feel so, so seen in the book. I want to go back to fawning for a second because I learned of that term a few years ago. And you really address it in the book. And back to my HFC tendencies and how they've shown up in my career. Right. So I had a very enmeshed relationship within my business. This was someone that worked for me. I became extremely codependent on them. And towards the end, that enmeshment kind of created a bit of toxicity unconsciously. And I knew that this person was gonna leave my company. And I could feel it in my body. I didn't know it in my conscious mind. And I fawned, fawned over this person for six months. And then they eventually quit and broke my heart and blindsided me. And in hindsight, I was like, holy. I had completely dysregulated my nervous system over the last six months in service of this person not leaving and fawning.

[Terri Cole]

And Terri.

[Jessica Zweig]

I'm gonna get emotional. I had so much shame. I had so much shame about that whole dynamic for almost a year. And so my question is, because I, I'm. I know women are going to read your book and they're gonna. The lights are gonna go on. And how do we navigate our healing through this and dismantling these deep seated wiring without the shame?

[Terri Cole]

Yeah. Here's the thing, babe. It's. It's self compassion.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

It's like little jest, like, are we judging that little face? I'm gonna cry. We're not judging her.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

Like you were doing what were doing. Because that's a survival. And how amazing that as little humans, like our brains figured out how to like get us out of that hellhole that we grew up in. Wherever it is you grew up. Most of us have places that it was good for us to get out of. So I think that I walk you through it in the book that we are doing this process, like this is the last big push for your liberation.

[Jessica Zweig]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

So we're doing it with radical curiosity and radical compassion. Where have faith that you make sense, that your brain makes sense, that what you did. Made sense. It made you feel safe when you felt unsafe. And in understanding of repeating relationships, real repeating relationship. Reality is where we talk about that in the book as well. Like.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

A lot of times, I promise you, that situation that you had at work, if you were to ask yourself the three cues for clarity, which are in the book I share with you. This is how we figure out when we're having a transference, so you can have it right in your back pocket, where you have a. An amplified response to someone. Where you're like, huh? All right, that was, like, a lot.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

What was going on? Well, who does this person remind you of?

[Jessica Zweig]

My dad.

[Terri Cole]

Where did you feel that way before?

[Jessica Zweig]

Constantly making sure he would interrupt or be mad or disapprove of me. I just. I wanted him to love me the way I needed him to love me. And so I bond. We all did.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah, you did, of course, because it was a survival technique. Yay. And then the third question we ask is, how is this behavioral dynamic, the way I'm interacting with this person? How is that familiar? And you would. You'd already come to what it is about. Right. So we name the dynamic. We go, oh, I'm seeking to manage this person's mood, their experience of me, where they relate to me, how they perceive me and their behavior. Because I don't want them to be mad, and I don't want them to erupt, and I don't want them to reject me, and I don't want them to leave.

[Jessica Zweig]

I don't want them to leave.

[Terri Cole]

Yes. So there's all the abandonment stuff in there. What happens is when we start to more deeply understand a. We have compassion for the little kid who was so desperate and in such a fucked situation, because at the age of seven, you're. You don't have the capability to do what you're trying to do. Yeah, right. But we're so trying anyway, because this is just part of the human part. Part of our human nature. Right. Is to survive and to get our needs met. Nobody's sending us an inner office memo on how to do that. We're just doing that somehow by our own instincts. Like, hello, I think we need to be throwing a parade for our inner children. I agree. And also getting that what you did in that situation truthfully makes sense. Yeah, right. Like, it actually makes sense emotionally and psychologically. And so it's gratitude for the. The lesson learned. Gratitude for that that experience is now over. And you're so aware, Jess, it won't happen again. And that's what we want is to go, huh? The moment I feel myself walking on eggshells with people who fucking work for me.

[Jessica Zweig]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

Is the moment I'm going to step back and go, wait a minute, let me ask these three questions and see am I having a transference to this person? Let me have a deeper understanding of what's going on. And those questions you can ask yourself any time you're feeling activated.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

Because if we can get to an original injury, even if it's not like the specific moment in time when it happened, it's close enough for you to soothe the inner child. Right. We can do some emotional self regulation.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

We can go outside, we can put our feet in the grass, we can hug a fraking tree, as you would tell us in your book. I do love it.

[Jessica Zweig]

Constantly.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah. We can do some breathing, we can meditate. But what is happening is when we recognize what's going on, we don't have the compulsion to act it out in the same way. Because as I like to say, you can talk it out or act it out. These are our two choices. Because that is not going away.

[Guest]

Right.

[Terri Cole]

So we can't stuff it down enough to be like, I think it disappeared. No, it didn't. Trust me, it is still there. So talking or acting. But when we acknowledge journaling, to me is like talking, I just mean bringing it up and out of the basement into the main part of the house, flipping open some windows, putting on some lights and just being like, you know what? This is what it is. It's okay. You're okay.

[Jessica Zweig]

Beautiful. Thank you for that. It's a real masterful walkthrough of how to navigate that shame piece. It's real. You mentioned interdependence. It's absolutely one of my favorite words. I feel like this whole planet, Mother Earth is main principle is interdependent. Everything is intended to be harmoniously connected. Can you define as it relates to healing through high functioning codependency what interdependence looks like?

[Terri Cole]

Instead of controlling everything.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

It really is allowing your person, your people to be there for you as well.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

It's, you know, I look at my relationship with my husband and go, there are some things that Vic is great at.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

And so he does more of those things. There are some things that I'm great at.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

I do more of those things.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

But there is a mutuality where after my mother's advice many years ago, started looking at what is it like if I allow him to care for me in A real way. What. What would happen? And I remember having this epiphany. I. I had sprained my ankle when we were first together, and I was supposed to be going to Italy for. Anyway, he was out and about trying to find me a wrap for my ankle. So he's literally calling. Keep in mind, there's no cell phones, people. This was the 90s. So he's calling the house phone, and I've got my leg. I'm. I'm his house. It's not my house yet. My leg is elevated. And he's like, all right. So I've got four that. I think one of them is good. But there's one more place I want to go, then I'll be home. So he's getting me five wraps to try for my. So that I can walk while I'm in Italy. And I remember I got off the phone and it just struck me and I just started bawling my eyes. I was just crying. I was like. It felt like I exhaled for the first time in my adult life.

[Guest]

Wow.

[Terri Cole]

Where I was like, this dude is capable. And it's really just about me allowing him to be as capable as he is and allowing him. It's about me receiving. And it really changed. I mean, and that was early on. That was the first year and a half of our relationship. And to this day, he is. You know, I like to describe the relationship where I feel securely tethered. Interdependency is where you have trust.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

Because when you think about what is it when. When I'm an hfc, when I'm active and I'm in my. My position of directing and managing people. People are projects instead of people being people. What I'm. You know, what is happening. I'm not allowing.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

I'm not receiving.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

I'm too busy controlling. And I think that we have to get over this whole notion, like, when people are so, like, anti. Like, I'm not controlling. You're like. Let's be honest. You are. That's what this is.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

And it's okay. Again, this is a no judgment zone. This whole book, this whole topic. And your whole life can be a no judgment zone. Let's not do that to ourselves.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

Let's have compassion. You know, I love it.

[Jessica Zweig]

There's this thing that I'm experiencing right now in. In Transparent, just coming off of a book launch, and I caught, like, my husband actually reflected this to me a couple days ago at dinner because I was. I've. I've over committed myself okay. And in, in service of, you know, something I deeply care about and believe in and you know, love being out there in community doing what I do. And my husband said it's short term gain for long term pain. And I like to say that we're, you know, we're all healing on a continuum. And women I think especially are. If I were to tell you, Terri, the amount of women that I've talked to, whether in my community as friend groups, just connecting with acquaintances, every one of us is fucking burned out. Every one of us has either in it or have experienced it and have PTSD from it. And I guess because you're the boundary boss, you know, as we kind of wake up to like holy shit in real time, I have over functioned here. How do we draw boundaries and kind of go back, not go back on our commitments but, but do so in a way that maintains our integrity, our relationships, maybe our reputation.

[Terri Cole]

Okay, so.

[Jessica Zweig]

So asking for a friend.

[Terri Cole]

Let's talk. Yeah, you're like, not me, someone else. So let's talk about boundaries. First of all, in the first book, Boundary Boss, there's the Boundary Boss Bill of Rights. And the third one I think is you have the right to make mistakes, to course correct and to change your mind. And so part of this process is when you're in hfc, a lot of times once we say we're going to do something, we could be like a bloody pulp on the ground and we're still like, I think I can still do it. You're like, your leg is fucking broken. Are you sure? I don't know, I feel like I could just splint it myself. And then after the event I'm going to get some help. Like actually. So I think that we can't have everything, which means that the people pleaser in us isn't going to like it when we go back on our word to someone. And sometimes that is required if we're not going to self abandon. Now we do our best. The better you get at your boundaries, the better you get at being able to look and say I actually am not going to have the bandwidth to do all of this. I need to make it less. But listen, it's your first book like this big book launch. I don't know if you launched the first book in the same big way. Did you?

[Jessica Zweig]

I did and it was what led me to burnout.

[Terri Cole]

Oh, you're like speaking of launching a burnout. There you go.

[Jessica Zweig]

I have new tools this time. Yes, but you know, sometimes we have to learn the same Lessons over and over again.

[Terri Cole]

Of course we do.

[Jessica Zweig]

And I'm in the midst of reading your book, and I'm like, I know better, and I should have known better.

[Terri Cole]

Better.

[Jessica Zweig]

And I. I'm very prideful of my reputation because it's my brand and I care. I. What you just said about, like, the bleeding Pope on the ground with the leg. I'll fix it when I'm done. Like, that's a large part of who I am. And there's a lot of guilt that comes up in going back to draw those boundaries.

[Terri Cole]

Well, and here's the thing. You're going back to change your mind. Right. To set a limit. And people are going to have feelings about that.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

But that's also okay. And I think that, you know, Cheryl Richardson wrote a book called Let me disappoint you, and I write about that in the book about the importance and the. It's just a requirement. We just have to get the fuck over feeling like we can literally never disappoint anyone.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

People are going to be disappointed. And you cannot prioritize your self, which is what you must do, and prioritize other people's judgment of you. You just can't. Those things don't coexist. So sometimes you have to choose us. And sometimes we have to say, hey, I said yes to two Sundays from now, and I'm really sorry. I just realized I don't have the bandwidth to do it the way that I would want to do it.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

So please forgive me. I'm bagging out on the Sunday thing.

[Jessica Zweig]

I agreed to and just allow for it. For people to be disappointed.

[Terri Cole]

Yes.

[Jessica Zweig]

Like you said.

[Terri Cole]

Or. Or to be totally understanding. It's just our fear mind that says they're going to be horribly disappointed and reject us and kick us out of the tribe. It's like an amplified fear of what will be. We're grown women. If I need to say I can't do it and you're my friend or you're a business partner and I'm. I'm a super reliable person all the time.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

Then I would really appreciate you giving me some grace. I do. Right. As I do for everyone. Right. So do you. Right.

[Jessica Zweig]

And I know in my soul there are women listening to that. What you just said, and feel such a release.

[Terri Cole]

Yes, please.

[Jessica Zweig]

Yeah, I do. I told you this was going to be part therapy session. I can't go into too much detail what's really happening in my life, but you get it.

[Terri Cole]

I do. Okay.

[Jessica Zweig]

You talk about a concept in the Book called Yum Yucking. And I, I. So I stand. So much as my community knows, and this is what I think has made me fall in love with you so much like you are a woman for women. Like, we really truly ride for each other. And a core value of my life is sisterhood.

[Terri Cole]

Yep.

[Jessica Zweig]

And yet. And as I was reading this yum yum section, I was like, oh yeah, like we do this unconsciously. And it, it kind of is the antithesis in a sense of like true sisterhood and support. And so.

[Terri Cole]

But we don't just do it to sisters.

[Jessica Zweig]

We don't know we do it. We do it to life and all people, whether we know them personally or not. So one, can you explain what yamn is? And two, how it relates to high functioning codependency?

[Terri Cole]

Sure. So this is a concept that I did not originate. This was David Simon from the Chopra Institute. Yeah, you said that many, many moons ago. RIP David. This is a concept where all day long we are approving and disapproving of things in life as we walk through. So imagine it is Yum yucking. So you get onto the subway and you see a girl. Oh, I like that skirt. Yum. Those boots, yuck. It doesn't go, I don't like that. I don't like how close that person's standing or I don't like. I like it, I don't like it. I like it, I don't like it. So what, why do we do this?

[Jessica Zweig]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

And what does it protect us from? Okay, so by imagining that life is black and white and that life is right and wrong. Boots, skirt. That doesn't go according to me. Right. It gives us the illusion of control. And as we're yum yucking it up and judge shooting it around town, what are we getting to avoid? Our own feelings, our own situation. Stuff that in our own lives, which is the same thing that being a high functioning codependent, being overly invested in and feeling responsible for the outcomes, the situations, the feelings of the people in our lives. It's the same thing. And that. What do we get to avoid by doing that? Yeah, our own feelings, our own situations. Things that we don't want to deal with or we don't know how to deal with. So much easier for me to focus on your shit than it is for me to actually focus on my own shit.

[Jessica Zweig]

There you go. I was like reading that. I'm like, you know, it's, I mean, it's, it's projected judgment which creates separation. But then it's the projection of you not needing to focus on you, which is the core of HFCS and really.

[Terri Cole]

The illusion of control. There's so many ways as HFCS that we desire control. And it's fear, it's all fear based stuff. So it's not like I desire control because I'm a megalomaniac. Right. Is I desire control because I fear chaos if I don't. I am afraid to let the chips fall where they may.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

Even when they're not my chips. I'm afraid for you. I'm afraid for my friend. I'm afraid for the situation. I'm afraid whatever. Whatever it is.

[Jessica Zweig]

Yes. I was talking to you last week. We were on the phone about your trip to Nashville. And I'm going through a situation right now with somebody I love very much. Someone who's been in my life for a really, really long time. And we're on a break right now. Not really on my own accord. She's asked for some space and previous Jessica would grip and try to fix and need to talk it out and connect and clear right away. And I was proud of myself like these last few weeks and really dealing with this, knowing that whatever it is that she's going through at the end of the day really doesn't have that much to do with me. And I was explaining this to you Terry, and I want you to talk about like, because you end the book with surrender. And just in your beautiful wise words and the way that you, you know, communicate and share your heart, you're like, there's such freedom in that. And that is a, it's definitely a, a practice to really find that surrender. But in the surrender there's, there's so much new possibility. And I guess isn't that like the aim if control is the root, surrender being the limitless possibility? Like what is in your mind? Because you said it to me in your own beautiful way on the other side and within surrender, really not just in our relationships, but in our own personal relationship to ourselves.

[Terri Cole]

Well, let's look at it like this. Like where we feel like when we feel overly responsible for other people.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

For how you feeling overly responsible, let's say for how that person was feeling or what led them to that decision. You're quote unquote on the hook for it. There's a sense of like, everything's not okay. I need to be doing something, I need to fix. Right. When we think about what the, what the behaviors of HFCs are, we have auto advice giving. We have auto fixing. We have auto accommodating where we're out in the world and we see a problem where we're like, oh wait, I need. I can. I know what to do there where you two want to sit together, I'll move or whatever. Right. Well, this is out in the world.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

Like reading a book. We could be doing something else, but we're just dialed into our environment to make sure there's not any problems. Right. Over giving. Yeah. Feeling underappreciated a lot of times.

[Guest]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

Right. Doing things for people that they can and should be doing for themselves.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

And the thing is, there's not enough appreciation which ends up. What ends up happening is that when people are giving from a disordered place, we are over giving as HFCs. Even when people are grateful, there's not enough gratitude in the world because we're coming from a wrong place.