← The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
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Body, mind and spirit. We believe if one needs help, so do the others. As part of Catholic Healthcare's holistic approach to treating the whole person. Here, people are not viewed as symptoms or insurance claims. And when we treat the body, mind and spirit, we believe the whole person will thrive. Catholic Healthcare. Learn more at wecareyouflourish.org Sponsored by the Catholic Health Association. Welcome to the spiritual life. I'm Fr. Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and in their daily lives. And I'm joined by my indefatigable producer, Maggie Van Doren. Maggie, good to be with you.
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B
Good to be with you, Jim. And I hope I can keep up with the vocabulary that you're bringing and assigning to me.
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A
All true adjectives. And this time we are speaking with Father Isaac Slater, O C S O Order of the Cistercians of the strict observance that is a Trappist.
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B
Yeah. So Father Isaac Slater is a Canadian born writer and poet who for more than two decades has lived as a Trappist monk at the Abbey of Genesee in upstate New York. There he serves in various roles from baking the monastery's monk's bread, assisting in plumbing cat pending the garden, and now helping in the infirmary, as well as serving as novice director. So the beginning of a monk's time to the end of a monk's time. In 2007, America magazine awarded Father Isaac the Foley Poetry Prize for his work Lost and Found. Father Isaac has edited and contributed to several poetic works, and just recently he published a book entitled By Do Not Judge Desert Wisdom for a Polarized World, which grounds much of the conversation on this podcast today.
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Yeah. And I am so excited for listeners to hear this. I'm such a big fan of the Trappist. Thomas Merton was instrumental in my own vocation. I mean, not him himself, but his writings. And our listeners will find that there's a kind of distinctive sort of quiet wisdom that Father Isaac has for all of us. So it's really a great conversation. And I myself, I learned a ton from him. And book is fantastic.
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B
Yeah. And so our audience question this week is, I think, very much related to both of you being spiritual teachers in some way. And it comes from Paul, who asks, what do you and other spiritual teachers struggle with in the spiritual life?
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Well, Paul, my joke earlier to Maggie was, well, nothing, of course. You know, my spiritual master. Master. You know, I think the answer to that is probably the same thing that everybody else struggles with or the same things that everybody else Struggles with, I would say, as a Jesuit, it's probably that what we talk about in this episode, which is judging, that's a big one for me. So trying not to be judging interiorly. Right. You know, thinking less of my brother Jesuits for failing on one thing or another, because, you know, I'm imperfect, too. I'm certainly not the perfect Jesuit by a long shot. There's a kind of sort of staleness, I think, that can creep into one's religious life, where you feel like you're just kind of going through the motions. But I really think that you say spiritual teachers, we are human beings, right. And we're struggling with the same sins, right. And the same failings and the same temptations even that everybody else does. There might be an added struggle, which would be pride. You know, when people call you a spiritual teacher or a spiritual master. Right. You know, I'm hosting this podcast, right, called the Spiritual Life with Father James Martin. It's easy to let that go to your head. I'll tell you a funny story which has to do with someone Maggie knows on our staff, Carrie Weber, who's a.
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Woman who's a legend in her own right.
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A legend. That's right. And a couple of years ago, Liturgical Press was doing a series of books of biographies of different Catholic leaders since the Second Vatican Council. And they contacted me and said that they would like to do one on me. So I went into Kerry Weber, who's, you know, is a friend, and I told her, you know, I thought it was pretty funny. And she doubled over laughing, saying, that's ridiculous. And I said to her, maybe we could use that as a blurb, you know, on the book. That's ridiculous. So part of it is, you know, it's a temptation to pride. If people are going to call you a spiritual master, to have people like Kerry Weber in your life, who can say, that's ridiculous, Right. But to answer your question, Paul, I think I and other spiritual teachers struggle with the same things that everybody else does. And so it's. Right.
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B
And is there anything, Jim, that really helps you in those struggles, be it around judgment or staleness or pride?
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I think around judgment it is. And pride it is recognizing that I am sinful and imperfect. We Jesuits have a saying that comes from the Spiritual Exercises, or at least sort of based on the spiritual exercises of St Ignatius, which is that we are all loved sinners. And it's really important to keep both of those things in front of you, that you are loved by God. Right. But you're also a sinner. And that doesn't mean you're, you know, I'm a terrible criminal or something. But we're all human beings. And so Psalm 51, my sins are always before me. I think it's good to be aware of that. And that really does keep you from getting a big head. And also people like Kerry Weber who can, you know, kind of puncture your balloon a little bit from time to time. So, Paul, thank you so much for that. Great question.
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Yeah. And if anyone listening would like to ask Father Jim a question, we wrestle with them all. Whether we are student or master on this podcast, you can write to us@thespirituallifeamericanmedia.org yes.
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And we are all students, I would say. And now a word from our sponsor. Looking for a simple way to deepen your own spiritual life? Give Us this Day is a superb resource that helps Catholics stay rooted in scripture and prayer wherever you are and no matter how busy you are. It features reliable and relatable spiritual reflections, essays on the lives of the saints, the daily readings from the Mass, and, of course, prayers to accompany you throughout the day. I'm honored to be an editorial advisor, and I've been writing a monthly essay called Teach Us to Pray about prayer and different situations from the very beginning. And here's a great offer. Right now, listeners of the Spiritual Life can get 10% off their new print subscription. And by the way, the print edition is beautiful. Just visit giveusthisday.org spiritual life and join this community of Catholics praying together again. That's giveusthisday.org spiritual life. And now onto our conversation with Father Isaac Slater.
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Sam.
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So, Father Isaac Slater, welcome to the Spiritual Life.
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C
Thank you. Happy to be here.
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I am so happy to talk to you. I am a huge fan of the Trappists. Thomas Merton was instrumental not not while he was alive. But his books were instrumental in my own entrance into the Society of Jesus. And I've spent time at Gethsemane. I'm just a huge fan of the Trappist, and I'm really excited to have you on the show. So thanks for joining us. Can you start by explaining to our listeners what it means to be a Trappist monk?
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C
So we live according to the Rule of St. Benedict, and we follow a strict schedule. Seven times a day. We have liturgy, there's an abbot who's in charge of the community, and the day is broken up between periods of manual work and time in silence, time for prayer and reading. And we keep silence as a practice, as an atmosphere so we don't usually speak if it's avoidable. And we keep a general atmosphere of recollection in the monastery. And the goal is to bring God's mercy into the world, really, to pray for the world.
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A
And what led you to become a monk at age 25 was the attraction to religious life, or the Trappist in particular?
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C
Well, I mean, the short answer would be desperation, I think, at some level. But finding every other avenue closed, or finding that this was the only way where the seed that had been planted within me could really flourish, that was my feeling. There's such a strong attraction to the silence of the life and the kind of radicality or absoluteness of the claims that monastic life makes and, you know, a need for that kind of focus. In myself, I think that a monk is somebody who's been touched by God very deeply but realizes how quickly we lose focus. You know, I think it's true for all of us that we can have very profound experiences of grace and then in the next moment find that we've reverted to our deeply ingrained habits and reactivity. So monks, and certainly for myself, I can say I needed that stronger medicine of such a structured and methodical way of life to keep me on track and to keep me true to my own deepest heart's desire. I think that's the heart of the monastic practices, is to keep us true to what we most want.
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And what was going on in your life that you felt desperate? You use the word desperation.
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C
Well, as I say, it was partly the futility of anything other than God meeting my own deepest heart's desire and then needing. Like the Cistercian monasteries, or Trappist monasteries, are known as a school of love, the school of Caritatis. And I really felt that that's the one thing I needed to learn, that was the most important thing to learn in life and the thing that I needed the most help with. And my various attempts previous to that had failed or hadn't been satisfying in the end.
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A
One thing I want to ask you, you talked about silence, the experience of silence in your retreat, particularly for our listeners. What would you say enables God to speak to someone in a different way in silence? Because I meet a lot of people who say, oh, well, you know, God speaks to me through relationships and the sacraments and the gospels and whatnot. But what is it about silence that is so helpful for prayer, would you say?
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I think it creates a space for something deep within us to flower, something that can only come to life in that environment. It's a mysterious thing. I don't know that I can explain it, but it's a feeling of permission and leisure and spaciousness. It's a whole environment in which we can be ourselves a hundred percent. And our guard starts to go down. We didn't even know we were holding up this guard. And then in the quiet, it just relaxes. It's like we're holding a kind of shield or armor that we're not aware of wearing. And the silence just gives us the sense that we can let that down, lower our guard. And living in the silent monastery for many years, what happens is that more and more your spiritual pores start to open and you let your guard down more, and you're able to live in a kind of openness and availability. That's very freeing.
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And do you find that you relate to God in a different way when you're silent?
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I think so. It depends on what we mean by silent, too, right? Like there's physical silence, just the absence of noise or not speaking. But, you know, on a deeper level, a person can be silent while still quite active and even while speaking. There's a story in the Desert Fathers, the first Christian monks, about one monk who was giving discourses all day, but he was keeping silence. And another monk who never said a word, but because he was judging his brother in his heart, he was breaking silence. That's the gist of the story. So what is it that constitutes true inner silence?
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Yeah, now I know that. I think it was Henry Nouwen actually talking about Genesee in his book the Genesee Diary, where he said that he was surprised actually how noisy the monastery was in. In different places. And you were just saying that right before you started, there was someone with a weed whacker outside. So I think sometimes people have this false notion that the monastery is. Is utterly quiet and that all you do is pray. So that's a false notion. But one of the things I think is. Might be helpful for listeners. You were talking about, you know, having a kind of stillness inside. What would you say to people whose lives are filled with a lot of physical noise, you know, who live in the city and who have, you know, a big family? And is there a way that people can cultivate that silence?
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What do you.
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What do you say to people who live in kind of physically noisy environments?
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I think maybe the thing to underline is that it's already going on, that it's not something we have to create. And once you tap into it, you can find it anywhere. It's more a matter of attunement. And once you've had a. It's an interior state, so it can coincide with anything going on outside. It doesn't matter what's happening. Once you're anchored in that freedom and spaciousness, it can happen anywhere.
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A
Thomas Merton said, I think I can quote it, the first and most elemental test of anyone's religious vocation is the recognition that everyone in community, whether they are Jesuits, Carthusians, Trappists or Dominicans, is more or less imperfect. That's one of my favorite lines that I use with young Jesuits. What surprised you about monastic life, would you say the most when you entered?
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C
I mean, I wasn't really disillusioned by the imperfections of people. I'd had enough experience of human life and was basically mature enough to have reasonable expectations, I think. But I definitely had my greatest struggles in getting along with other people in community. And that was challenging to a degree that I didn't anticipate is really the hardest part. I think you can get used to waking up at 3 o' clock in the morning and eating different food, and you can get used to just about anything. But, you know, not being able to escape from somebody who really triggers you, gets under your skin. And he's always there. He's brushing his teeth at the next sink, he's across from you in the refectory. You see him in choir seven times a day. You have to figure out or find a way to live alongside this person that you find so troubling. And that's one of the great challenges of the life. There's an asceticism of relationship that's very demanding at times, but it forces you to be real.
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One of our superior generals or superiors general called it the asceticism of the dinner table. And what helps you with that or what has helped you with that?
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I mean, talking to other people, of course, helps so that you can hear from somebody you trust. Yeah, he's crazy. It's understandable that you're frustrated by this, but there's also another level, you know, and helps you step back and see the thing with some. Some distance. I think the main thing more and more is, you know, a really strong practice of contemplative prayer and being able to drop down the well to that deeper level of inner quiet that kind of reframes or recontextualizes all of your relationships and being able to inhabit that piece, even when you're in tension with another person, you're more and more grounded in that Inner quiet. And it just sort of spills over into your relationships. We had, I remember we had one, one of our older monks in a community discussion. We were talking about conflict and community. And he said, and this, this guy was like the most quiet monk, most quiet person I've ever met. He was off the charts, deep, deep introvert and a lovely person. But he just said, well, if you stay recollected all the time, you'll never be in conflict with anybody. There's something to that maybe. I mean, really, the more recollected you are, the, the less acrimonious your conflict becomes. Anyway, I mean, I think it kind of works.
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I think it is true that people have a sort of a stereotype that we're all super holy, we all get along, there's never any conflict, no one ever argues. And I think it was my brother in law who said, well, you can never argue. And I said, well, where did you get that idea? He said, well, you know, you're Christian. And I said, well, you're Christian too. And I said, don't you ever, you know, have arguments with people and related to that? A lot of people, I think this is fair to say, ascribe great holiness to people like you who have devoted their lives to prayer. I have to say, even I sometimes when I visit my Trappist friends, I'm so in awe of like Thomas Merton's life and the life. Even when I see the habit, you know, I think, oh my gosh, it's the Trappist. But of course, right? We're all, we're all human beings. But they place your vocation on a pedestal and imagine that. I think this is the challenge. They imagine, oh, my life couldn't possibly be as holy as their lives. And you're so holy, you're so prayerful. What do you do with people in those situations? How do you get them to see their own lives as just as holy as yours?
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Yeah, I mean, only God is holy and no one is good but God alone, as Jesus teaches. So I think that's the place to start. And God is just as near to me as he is to you as he is to anyone.
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Right.
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I mean, he's constantly loving us into being at each moment nearer to us than we are to ourselves. For every person and every living thing is holy, as Blake says. So that's the key thing. And a person, you know, you can have an unusual vocation or a vocation that sort of puts you in the path of grace or makes it possible to experience Your nearness to God in a particularly heightened way, perhaps at times. But that basic experience is available for.
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Everyone, like the universal call to holiness.
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C
And even to prayer, like even to deep states of prayer. A monastery is one way of making that sort of contemplative level available, but it's not the only way. And it's something, as I was saying earlier, that we're already immersed in. We're just not always attuned to it or aware of the reality of God's grace surrounding us.
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A
Let me ask you a little bit more about your own personal prayer. You were talking about the value of silence. You know, you said you pray seven times a day. And can you describe, you know, when you're praying, whether in Mass or the Psalms, what's going on inside of you? I mean, obviously it's not, it's different every day. But what kinds of things are happening within you? How would you describe your prayer?
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C
Yeah, so there's several different ways that monks are praying. I mean, basically your whole life becomes a prayer at a certain point. You're just kind of swimming in the river all day long. And there's liturgical prayer where you're chanting the Psalms, there's celebration of the Eucharist each day. There's lectio divina where we're praying the Scriptures for a certain period of time, and other kinds of reading, spiritual reading that we're doing reading as a way of encountering the living God, not as a way of gathering information and so on. And then there's prayer of the heart or silent prayer, a more contemplative prayer where you're just resting in the Lord's presence. So all of those have different shades and angles and lead to different ways of experiencing God. I'm personally, I'm very drawn to silent prayer and to that more contemplative, just being still in the Lord's presence. I think that that kind of quiet allows you to experience the environment of the monastery and all the other aspects of the life, the relationships, the liturgy and so on. Most deeply, you know, the deeper you go into the quiet, the more the other aspects of the monastic life really start to resonate.
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A
Now I can imagine people wanting me to ask a follow up question which is, so what is going on inside of you when that is happening? Is it an emotional state? Is it a feeling of sort of physical peace?
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C
Yeah, not very much. Actually. There's very little, very little going on. I mean, it's like Jesus asleep in the boat. And sometimes there's a storm and sometimes it's calm, but you kind of become quiet and you're aware. Being quiet and keeping still. All of your own reactivity and inner narratives become visible. So you can see that storm going on. And then eventually it quiets down and you're just there resting with Jesus in the back of the boat and enjoying some rest. It's very simple.
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A
Has your image of God changed since you entered the monastery?
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C
Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Although the image of God that we think we hold and the one that we actually hold are not always the same thing as one discovers. Human beings are complicated. We have different layers.
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A
What would you say your image of God was when you entered, and how has it changed?
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C
Well, I think that for all of us, we have some kind of intuition or experience of the living God. We've had an experience of grace. We've been struck to the heart with compunction. We've been rescued. We've had an experience of being loved. Whatever it looks like, we have some kind of sense of, oh, this is the living God. This is on another level. And that in intuition, is true. We know that's true intuitively. We know it's real. And then we have the overlay of our ideas about God and the. All of our cultural conditioning and the two run interference are clashed with one another. And so I think that it's a matter of just letting go of some of that conditioning and allowing the experience or image of God that's been there all along to just come to the surface and to trust it, to trust the basic intuition of God's goodness that we've had all along. Even in our earliest experiences of forgiveness and repentance and compunction, our very first steps on the spiritual life, that's it. That's. That's the reality. God is all loving, all merciful, and we just complicate it later. So I just don't complicate it as much anymore as when I first entered. I just let all of. All of those complications fall away. And it's just that original intuition just shines more clearly.
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A
That's great. I often say to directees that people have their own ideas of God, and it's. It's almost like an idol that they have to smash. If the person's name is Joe, I sometimes will say, you know, there's Joe's God, which may be very judgmental, right. And harsh and, you know, kind of stingy almost. And that. That's an idol. You know, we. We say, well, I don't have any idols. You know, I. When I Look at the Ten Commandments. What kind of idols do I have? But that's an idol that needs to be destroyed so that the living God, the true God, you know, God's God, can really sort of shine through. We're going to pause now for a short break and we'll be back in a minute. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them. In fact, you're you can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills and did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads? Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started@LinkedIn.com Campaign terms and conditions apply. Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. 1. It's $15 a month. 2. Seriously, it's $15 a month. 3. No big contracts.
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A
We talked about judging and I want to shift GE you just wrote a wonderful book called Do Not Judge, Desert Wisdom for a Polarized World. And I'd like to talk about that. Christians are very aware of Jesus warning his followers not to judge. I'm going to read this passage from Matthew, which I'm sure you've probably memorized. Stop judging that you may not be judged, for as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. And then of course, Jesus mentions the parable of the plank and your eye and the speck of dust and another person's eye just to begin with. Why do you think we're so quick to see the faults of other people? Where does that come from, that judging attitude?
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C
Yeah, I think that largely, most often, we're disowning something in ourselves that's too painful to look at and we put it on the other person. We tie up heavy burdens for the other person to carry and don't lend a finger to help ourselves. As Jesus says, do you think that.
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A
People who are very critical and very judgmental are actually very critical of themselves, or do you think it's just sort of kind of projected outwards?
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C
No, it's definitely the case that it says in Cyrax. Bernard loved to quote this verse, if you're stingy with yourself, to whom will you be generous? So I think that's often the case that, you know, we're very harsh on ourselves. It shows in the way we behave to other people, and other people pick it up, too. If we're very harsh with ourselves and have a low self image and feel kind of worthless and we're very defended and critical, people pick up that we don't think very highly of ourselves, and even unconsciously they start to treat us poorly because we, we don't have any self respect.
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A
Now, you talked about, you know, some experiences in the monastery of not getting along with people. You know, have you had experiences of judging other people as, you know, not a good monk or not holy enough or not faithful enough or whatever? And, and how have you dealt with that? What has helped you kind of overcome that?
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C
Yeah, I mean, this book on not judging is kind of the fruit of 25 years of suffering and failure, failure at the not judging. So Kierkegaard said that the preacher preaches first of all to himself. So that's very much the case in this book, you know, So I think the thing that helps most, as I said before, is, is really going deeper in prayer and then also trying to discover the human level before storylines, before the different narratives that we weave about one another and to see ourselves doing that, at least to learn to catch ourselves when we're just telling a story about another person, when we're framing things a certain way. And the more quiet you become inwardly, the more you're able to see your mind doing that.
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A
I guess one of the things I run into, Isaac on social media whenever I say stop judging, people have so many excuses. I've never seen so many excuses before in my entire life that I think one of the most challenging things, maybe the most challenging thing that Jesus says is stop judging. People say, oh, I can love my enemies, I can, you know, forgive those who persecute me. But judging, I have to judge because I have to judge other people's actions. So you must hear that a lot. How do you respond to that?
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C
Yeah, I take that up in the book and make the argument that discernment, spiritual discernment, is the authentic good of which judging is the counterfeit or the distortion And I describe judging as being over and against. It's always putting the other down to build myself up as the righteous one in some way. Whereas discernment is with and for everyone, the good of everyone. So the world in the negative sense, like the flesh, thinks in terms of over and against, always putting the other down to build me up. Whereas God and love is present in the world with and for the good of everyone. And the more we cultivate that, the more the other falls away.
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A
That's interesting. Can you give us an example or a story that can sort of explicate that difference between those two things?
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C
Well, I tell a story in the book, one of my favorite desert father stories, about some monks that see a woman going into the cell of one of their brothers. And so they get all righteously indignant and they rush to the abbot's cell and explain that they've seen this woman going into the cell of their brother. So he starts shouting and carrying on. When I catch that monk, I'm gonna string him up. And he goes stomping down the hall and bursts into the cell. And the monk is there, and there's kind of a hamper, a basket in one part of the room. And the Abba, the desert father, immediately goes over and sits on the basket and crosses his arms and tells the monks, you search every corner of this cell until you find that woman. So the brothers are, you know, they're kind of rubbing their hands, can't wait to see their. Their brother monk get burned. And they search the place top to bottom, and they can't find the woman. So then Abba gives them a stiff penance and, you know, challenges them for judging their brother. And then they're all sent away. And then he gets up off of the hand, the hamper, the basket, and turns to the monk and says, be careful. And then he leaves. So in this story, you see two attitudes towards judgment. The monks who are so eager to see their fellow monk, their brother, punished, you know, for doing something that maybe they want to do and won't allow themselves, or that they're distrustful of wanting to do in themselves. They're insecure about this. And anyway, they're eager to see him punished. And the Abba, by contrast, is able to very skillfully navigate the situation and de. Escalate lynch mob in a way that reminds of Jesus with the woman caught in adultery. And he. He brings about the good that his attitude is with and for all he's in the. In the situation, discerning or his. It's Even preconscious. How can I do what is best for the good of everyone? That will clarify the vision of these judgmental brothers and that will also wake up or somehow, you know, give the brother who's been caught in the act what he needs.
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A
Also, do you think a lot of it is a question of overlooking things?
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C
Yeah, definitely I do. I think that. And I've kind of discovered that for myself, the hard way is that there are very few things that I really need to argue about or try to change around me. Very few. You know, only the. An extreme. You know, a matter of conscience or like, really somebody's being harmed or it has to be very, very serious. But in fact, in practice, we can let go of 99.9% of the things that we get animated about. And it doesn't make any difference. It really doesn't. You know, and it's just much easier. You form the habit of just letting them go. And.
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A
And yeah, now I can imagine some people listening, saying, oh, well, that's fine for those guys. They live in a religious community, but they're not in the, quote, real world. So even though I say to people that's. This is the real world too, let's say. I'm thinking of an example. Let's say there's someone who's working in an office and they're working with a coworker who's just really mean to people, right? And it just drives. Drives this person crazy. Again, this is not. This is not American media. No one is mean here. And then this person finds himself being judgmental and condemnatory against this person who is acting in a very sort of cruel and even immoral way. Let's say that person comes into you for spiritual direction and says, my gosh, all I can think about is how mean this woman is and, you know, how terrible she is. And I really feel bad that I. I'm judging her interiorly.
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C
What.
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A
What would you suggest to someone in.
- [34:29]
C
That situation, I mean, maybe reframing it, that why are you giving that person so much power over you? Why are you just reacting to her negativity instead of doing something creative and out of the box? Like in that story of the desert Father, he doesn't allow himself to fall under the spell of the lynch mob, that persecutory fervor. He's thinking creatively in the moment and kind of improvising another way. And I think that's the challenge for us. That's what Grace calls us to. It invites us into creative responses that are not Reacting. You know, when Jesus says, turn the other cheek and never repay evil with evil, never resist an evildoer. This kind of a thing, that's what he means, is not to get trapped and just reacting to the other person spinning off their negative energy, but instead to act out of that bubbling wellspring of divine love in our hearts that's unafraid and that can come up with creative and surprising solutions that are with and for the good of everyone. The one that's persecuting and the one that's persecuted and everyone. It's like even in grave situations of injustice, as long as a person is reacting, they're not effectively responding to injustice and they're hurting themselves and they're hurting their cause in some way by simply reacting, by getting caught in revenge and righteous indignation and so on. Yeah.
- [36:02]
A
Our producer Maggie just texted me and said that Jesus improvises with the woman caught in adultery. So there's a great way of just kind of thinking in a different way. I also find that it's really an invitation to humility because it's, you know, we're all sinners and we're all. Especially in religious life, where none of us are perfect and it's easier to focus on someone else's failings than to look at what we might be doing wrong in community. You know, I have to say, I find this, especially on social media, people are. And I'm sure people have brought this up to you, where a lot of people, you know, spend a lot of time there these days, where there's. There's tremendous judging going on and really kind of personal attacks and belittling. And do people come to you talking about their struggles with social media as well?
- [36:47]
C
I think that, as you were saying earlier, people that judge themselves harshly tend to be the ones that judge others harshly. Or when we judge ourselves harshly, we tends to spill over into how we judge other people. And I think that that's really the key thing, is some kind of silent prayer, some practice of resting in the Lord's presence and soaking in divine love and letting our pores open, letting our guard come down, giving ourselves permission to feel what we feel, to inhabit our bodies, to inhabit our emotional life, all of our woundedness from the past, to really feel all of these things in a space of rest and silence and openness. Once we can do that and we can be generous and gentle towards our own brokenness, then it starts to be easily and naturally extended to other people. It's easy to be empathetic to other People. And then when we show empathy to others, we're not afraid. As long as we're approaching others as people like us who are broken and we're approaching them with empathy, we don't feel fear. It's an amazing thing. And if we don't feel fear, we won't be tempted to judge and to defend ourselves and to protect ourselves and so on.
- [38:01]
A
Yeah, I always say to people, if perfect love drives out fear, then perfect fear drives out love. And so it is. So much of it is fear based. You know, I find on social media, I think that's a really insightful comment you said, which is you don't have to live in that space. You know, I often tell people that they need to take a break from social media because, you know, I mean, I myself have been judged and attacked and all those kinds of things. And I think if you kind of get your value from there and you live there in a sense where a lot of young people live these days, it can be. It can be very toxic. So as you're saying, I mean, two things you're saying, one is not to sort of live in that space, but also to cultivate the silence, you know, away from social media, I think could really be incredibly helpful for people.
- [38:49]
C
I think one thing that's important there is that as I discuss in the book, how the accuser and the accused are both fictions, and we tend to give them too much reality. I mean, the person, as long as a person is trashing me for being worthless and this and that and being so out of touch, whatever they're. They're talking about a figment of their own imagination, they don't really see me. But often we take these comments very personally, as if that person could see right through me and that it really applied to me. You know, the person that God knows through and through and loves and created and so on, we take it personally. We give those comments much more power than they really have. And the one accusing, you know, who is that person? What is that stance? Who am I when I accuse another person? Is it really me? Is it my best self? Is it who I most want to be? And this other person that I accuse, is that who they really are? Does that exhaust who they are?
- [39:49]
A
I think that's a great insight that we are, in fact, particularly on social media, often judging a kind of construct of our own. Yeah, people have no idea, you know, what the inner self is like. Right. What, what people's motivations are like. I think it's made even worse when there's anonymous judging, right. So we, we can't even see. And then on top of that, to your point, I think it's human nature to go to the negative thing. You know, you have a hundred people say, oh, you did a great job, or this is a great homily, or I loved your book, you know, Father Isaac. And you have one person say, you know, I thought it was baloney or whatever. I heard a psychologist a couple of years ago say that our sort of primitive selves focus on the negative because, you know, that's a kind of good defense mechanism. If you were. The image was. If you were, you know, in the forest and there was a saber tooth tiger and you see a little rustle of a leaf, you know, you're very attentive to that kind of negative thing or the fearful thing. And so our psyches are drawn towards, you know, fear and being on guard. I mean, that's great if you're, you know, a caveman or a cave woman who want to, you know, continue living. But it's not so great for a 21st century Christian, right. Who's trying to live a healthy life. So we do tend to focus on that one negative thing.
- [41:04]
C
Yeah, I heard something similar recently that was saying by a Christian psychiatrist who's a neurobiologist, and he was talking about how the brain, it takes only three seconds for the brain to process a shaming comment, a negative remark. It just immediately your whole nervous system is on high alert, but it takes 30 to 90 seconds to absorb validation, empathy, the feeling of being loved. And that's 30 to 90 seconds of deliberate attention. So I think that it's really a crucial practice when somebody says something positive to take a minute and really deliberately let it sink in and, you know, really feel it. Because otherwise we're receiving graces and gifts and positivity that we're just blowing right past.
- [42:00]
A
So you, you just mentioned some contemporary examples of, you know, psychological wisdom. How much do you think that Jesus and the Desert Fathers are being. Their wisdom is being confirmed by modern sort of psychological insights these days about the kinds of things we're talking about.
- [42:18]
C
Yeah, I think just as with scripture generally, each new generation and cultural context is discovering new facets and meanings of the word of God. I think that's true about the Desert Father teaching and Jesus own teaching on not judging. Jesus gave this teaching, do not judge and you will not be judged. And the Desert Fathers made it the center of their practice of the gospel. They took this as like the central pillar only do not judge. How do I become a monk? Only do not judge, and you will be a monk. You'll be saved. That's the one thing you need to do. And so that emphasis, that was what was so fascinating to me. And I think that that emphasis is worth revisiting in our context. And that there's all kinds of situations and ways and meanings in which it's valuable to explore that. And the discoveries of science and psychology and all of these help us appreciate different aspects of that teaching, like what it is that we do when we pass judgment, why it is that we pass judgment, and and so on.
- [43:24]
A
That's very profound. 35 years ago today, I took my vows as a Jesuit, and I had not heard that insight ever about, you know, that being the kind of centerpiece of the Desert Father. So that will help me a great deal, hopefully in the next 35 years of my Jesuit life. But I want to ask you a question from our audience. We take a question from our audience, and this week it's from a fellow named Paul. And the question is, what do you and other spiritual teachers struggle with in the spiritual life?
- [43:57]
C
Well, Jojen, that's why I had to write the book. So what do I struggle with most? I think often it's still the relationships and that asceticism of relationship. And, you know, the monastery is a difficult environment at times because new things are welling up from within you. Your demons are coming to the surface. Your own woundedness starts to emerge in a certain way. When you're in this environment of quiet and openness and you're doing this reading, you're kind of deliberately making way for things to surface. And then you're in kind of a strange social milieu as well, and you're trying to deal with the different personalities in this artificial, enclosed environment. And, you know, things can be happening, you can have conflicts outside and then things bubbling up from within as well. And it can be quite challenging. But I think this, the need to really inhabit our brokenness 100% in all its different facets. I think that's where the challenge lies. And that again, contemplative prayer and some kind of practice of presence and silence and so on is really the key where we create within ourselves or allow God to open within us, rather a space where we can feel whatever it is that we feel and that we can really be whole again and be in touch with all the different aspects of ourselves and of our lives. And only if we do that can we really be entirely available and non judging towards Others well.
- [45:45]
A
Father Isaac Slater of the Abbey of the Genesee, I want to thank you for your time, your wisdom, and please do keep us in your prayers.
- [45:52]
C
Thank you very much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
- [46:14]
B
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- [46:37]
C
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- [46:39]
B
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- [46:59]
A
Well, I was so excited to have a Trappist on. I was really anticipating it, and he was just as wonderful as I hoped he would be.
- [47:06]
B
Yeah, he was wonderful to listen to and to take notes from. I was, like, note taking the entire time, especially the discussion you both had around silence and what it can do for us. My initial reaction was, I don't think people experience silent as restfully as he has, that we can be bombarded with a lot of thoughts, fears, confrontations. So maybe you can help our audience understand what is it that silence can ultimately do for us, and how do we get past the initial distractions we encounter in silence?
- [47:46]
A
Yeah, I think you're right, Maggie, because silence can be really scary for some people. A couple of weeks ago, we had a retreat. I work with Outreach, the LGBTQ Catholic ministry, and it was a retreat at Daylesford Abbey in Norbertine Abbey. And I said, you know, of course this is a silent retreat. It was just for a weekend, and people were very surprised and a little upset. Like, you didn't tell us this. By the end of the retreat, they all loved it. I think everybody, almost everybody loved it. Not. No one complained about it. So I think at the beginning, it's scary. One of the things I like to remind people of is you're silent during the day, probably more than you think, right? If you're doing chores around the house, if you're walking to work, if you're, you know, cleaning, doing the laundry, folding clothes, whatever, washing dishes, you know, if the radio's not on, you, you already are in silence. So I think part of it is to alleviate people's fear by saying, you already do this a little bit, you know, with yourself, and you probably like some of it, right? When you're just, you know, staring out the window or walking down the street or something. What does it do for us in prayer? I think you're Right. That initially it can be surprising, all the things that come up. Right. Fears, regrets, you know, frustrations, disappointments, things like that, questions about our faith. I think what happens is that those kinds of things come up in the beginning. Now some of those things have to be dealt with, you know, maybe in therapy or talking to a friend. But eventually those things calm down. I often use the example of when I was little, there was a little stream by our house, not a big stream. And we were asked once to go and collect some water from the stream so we could look at things under a microscope. This must have been in, like, fourth grade. And when you sort of drew out all the water, you know, a lot of the sediment had to sort of settle, right. But it took a couple days for the water to be kind of clear. And so I think silence really helps us to do that. So some things, you know, they are stirred up, but eventually you get used to them. You see them for what they are, and you're able to be with God in a different way. The other great image is from Bill Barry, the great spiritual master Jesuit, who talked about, you know, accompanying God sometimes with words, sometimes with images. But, you know, oftentimes it's just like walking down a beach with a friend and just sort of looking at the sky, right? You're just kind of silent. There's something going on. So I would say to people, you know, just try it out, right? You don't have to be a monk, you know, like Father Isaac, but, you know, try giving yourself the gift of silence and see if, you know, as Isaac was saying, see if God doesn't relate to you in a slightly different way.
- [50:28]
B
Yeah. The other cool thing that I noticed in this interview was the importance of environment and structure and habit. Now, of course, Brother Isaac is going to have a much different structure to his prayer life than most of us will. But we could all benefit from taking a second look at our environment and what we surround ourselves by, for example, social media. You know, if you spend a lot of time on social media, that is a kind of environment that you occupy. And how much is that going to color your spiritual life?
- [51:03]
A
I think that is very well put. And, you know, you're right. He is in an environment, you know, a monastery, that is supposed to be conducive to prayer. Although, funny enough, as we mentioned before he came on, there was a weed whacker right outside. And as I mentioned, Henri Nouwen in his book the Genesee Diary, which took place at the Abbey of the Genesee, where Father Isaac is. He was working in the bread factory, and he said, it's so loud, you know, so the monks don't always have, you know, complete silence. But you're right. He has an environment that's specifically made for prayer, and most of us don't. And, you know, even when I was on retreat a couple of weeks ago, I thought, gosh, I feel so different. Right. I was at Eastern Point Retreat House. And why is this the case? Well, you know, I'm in a retreat house. It's quiet. And one of the questions for me was, you know, how do I recreate that in a sense? Well, you can, of course. You know, I don't live in a retreat house, but I think, you know, there are some things that we can do to your question. To create an environment that's more conducive for prayer. Right. And one thing is, I think, really important too. You know, have a bit of a social media diet, right. To put your phone down. It is very distracting. And, you know, we've all read the articles about, you know, dopamine and how, you know, something that is new, and we click on something and it kind of gives us a little bit of a, I guess a high, sort of a brain high. But to put it down, to read, to do some spiritual reading, is actually a gift that you give to yourself. And so the question is, can I, in the. The world that I live with, my circumstances and my situation. Right. I'm talking about all of us, create an environment that is more conducive for prayer? It doesn't have to be a monastery. Right. It doesn't have to be a monastery. It doesn't have to be a retreat house, but it can be more conducive to prayer. So what things can I let go of? And also what things can I embrace?
- [52:56]
B
And I think it doesn't have to be a major overhaul. It can just be tweaking one or two things and then just kind of noticing the difference.
- [53:04]
A
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, start small. Right. And I think you will want more of that in your life. I mean, one of the reasons I think people are listening to this podcast is because they want to experience God in their daily life and in their prayer. And one way to do that is to create an environment, a physical environment, a psychic environment. Right. And a mental and emotional environment that enables you to do that more freely. Right. By the way, I want to thank you for your insight, which you texted me, about Jesus being creative in responding to people who are judging.
- [53:39]
C
Yeah.
- [53:39]
B
So I was sending you just this immediate reaction I had where people are bringing the woman caught in adultery to Jesus and asking him to judge her. And then he takes a few moments and he, like, draws in the sand and then he says, you know, those of you who are without sin may cast the first stone.
- [53:59]
A
Yeah. And, you know, I thought that was such a great insight that he does exactly what, you know, Father Isaac was saying. Right. He is our model, of course. And interestingly, Maggie, when you were talking about him writing in the sand, there was all sorts of speculation about what he's writing. And one of my favorites is, I mean, we don't know, of course.
- [54:17]
B
Yeah.
- [54:18]
A
That he's writing their sins in the sand.
- [54:22]
C
Wow.
- [54:24]
B
To see your own sins being written in the sand. Right.
- [54:28]
A
Yes. And they put the stones down.
- [54:31]
B
Yeah.
- [54:33]
A
Well, thanks for a great conversation, Maggie.
- [54:35]
B
My pleasure.
- [54:36]
A
The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is a production of American Media. It's produced by Maggie Van Dorn and our executive producer, Sebastian Gomes. We recorded in the William J. Loshert studio in New York City with the production assistance of Kevin Christopher Robles. Our audio engineer is Noah Levinson. Adam Buckmuller edited the video of this episode, which is available on America Media's YouTube channel. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow follow me across social media amesmartinsj. Also, please help us grow the show by leaving a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. If you love the spiritual life, then we have even more to offer you at America magazine's website. Keep informed and inspired about our Catholic faith. Become a subscriber today@americamagazine.org subscribe or click the link in the show notes. Thanks so much and God bless you.