Podcast Summary: The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J. Episode: Brené Brown on Jesus and the Mystery of God Host: America Media Date: October 28, 2025

Episode Overview

In this season finale, Fr. James Martin, S.J., and producer Maggie Van Doren welcome Brené Brown, renowned researcher, author, and speaker, for an openhearted exploration of faith, vulnerability, prayer, and navigating the complexity of encountering God—especially through the challenges of church, identity, and modern spiritual practice. Brown discusses her personal spiritual evolution, her nuanced relationship with Christianity and the church, her prayer practices, and how vulnerability and courage intersect with spirituality. The episode is rich with honest reflection, candid humor, and practical spiritual insights.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brené Brown's Spiritual & Religious Upbringing

• Formation with Jesuits and Catholic Influences (06:02–09:16)

  • Grew up amid a “wild pack of Jesuits,” with family home acting as a stopover for liberation theologians from Central America.
  • Baptized Episcopalian but converted to Catholicism after a “hard sell” encounter with a bishop at age seven.
  • Loved Mass, rituals, “the back and forth of liturgy,” but was troubled by punitive rules and discrepancies within the church vs. God’s love.

  “From a very early age, God was irreducible in my life. The church felt optional.” (Brené Brown, 10:21)

• Adolescence and Young Adulthood (10:28–14:31)

  • Catholic practice gave way to spiritual struggle: experienced trauma, observed church’s failings, and saw hypocrisy in church responses to suffering.
  • Distanced herself from the church due to its actions but found it impossible to be done with God (“That just elicited a chuckle from God”).

• Return & Reinterpretation (14:31–14:56)

  • Returned to faith and organized religion after becoming a mother, seeking to ensure her children had a sense of God.
  • Ultimately found a home in the Episcopal Church, but retains a “mystical Catholic” sensibility, appreciating its mystery and sacramental life.

2. Spiritual Practice & Prayer

• Mysticism & Community Rituals (14:56–16:05)

  • Finds God profoundly in shared rituals: passing the peace, singing, taking communion—especially alongside people she struggles with.

  “Mysticism for me is a lifelong street fight with faith as the only path to really understanding God. I don’t need it to be easy.” (Brené Brown, 15:59)

• The Daily Examen (19:49–21:23)

  • Practices the Ignatian Examen prayer regularly (inspired by Jesuit tradition), listening to a recording during walks or downtime.
  • Adapts the prayers to her own language, focusing more on fear and shame rather than evil—believing these are what truly separate us from God and love.

  “I just say, deliver us from fear and shame, because I think we are not good as human beings when we’re in deep fear and shame. And a combo, I think, is lethal.” (Brené Brown, 21:32)

3. Wrestling With God, Church, and Community

• Finding God in Others (16:05–18:15)

  • Feels challenged by the call to see the face of God in all people—including those with opposing or harmful values. Acknowledges the frustration and difficulty, but believes in setting boundaries “to be in my integrity and generous toward you.”

  “Finding the face of God in people has made me a less nice person and a kinder person.” (Brené Brown, 17:46)

• God as Presence (34:41–37:14)

  • Describes the presence of God as ever-constant, “like asking a fish to describe water.” Associates God with “inextricable connection” and being “never alone,” rather than with dogma.

  “I can speak to the separation more than I can the presence of God. I never, I never don’t feel it.” (Brené Brown, 34:49)

4. Relationship with Jesus

• Jesus in Life and Spirituality (25:27–30:45)

  • Sees Jesus as “main character energy” but struggles with the image of Jesus as portrayed by the institutional church and public culture.
  • Resonates with Richard Rohr’s concept of the “Cosmic Christ,” preferring a mystical, less anthropomorphized Jesus.

• Difficulty of Jesus as a Cultural Symbol (26:16–27:18)

  • Feels that Jesus has been "co-opted" by theological and political factions, making Him a complicated symbol rather than a source of direct relationship.

  “When you say the word Jesus, I automatically create space between me and people I love and care for and fight for.” (Brené Brown, 27:04)

• Jesus of the Gospels vs. Cultural/Political Jesus (27:58–30:45)

  • Profoundly admires the Jesus of the Gospels—vulnerable, strong, and challenging.
  • Describes her own relationship with Jesus as “contemplative at best,” complicated by church imagery and personal doubts about doctrines.

5. Vulnerability, Courage, and Spirituality

• Professional Insights and Parallels to Faith (37:37–42:29)

  • Discusses her research on leadership: true courage is not fearlessness, but the refusal to put on emotional "armor."
  • Connects this to Jesus: God comes into the world without armor (as a vulnerable child, and on the cross).

  “It’s not fear that gets in the way of courage, it’s armor. It’s how we self-protect when we’re in fear.” (Brené Brown, 37:55)

• Jesus as Model of Tough Love (40:24–42:29)

  • Jesus was not “nice” but “tough, kind, compassionate, loving”—qualities that require strength and boundaries.

  “I don’t need a nice Jesus. I don’t really trust nice people. Nice feels performative… But in order to be kind and compassionate and loving, you have to be pretty tough.” (Brené Brown, 40:24)

6. Metaphor of "Strong Ground"

• Leadership Lesson from a Sports Injury (43:38–48:20)
  • Talks about how a pickleball injury and subsequent physical therapy taught her about the importance of “core”—both physically and spiritually.
  • Draws a parallel between organizational and personal health: building on a strong core/ground vs. compensating and getting hurt.

  "We’re not going to build on dysfunction. …What is your core? Right. And where is your core and where is your ground?…God…is the ground of all being.” (Brené Brown & Fr. Jim Martin, 48:45)

7. Returning to Faith After Absence

• Advice for Returning to Faith (49:16–50:46)

  • For those seeking to return to spiritual practice after time away, Brown recommends openness and perceiving God as arms-wide, no judgment.

  “I find my faith always there. Open arms, no judgment. ...I don’t want to solve the mystery. I want to live in the mystery.” (Brené Brown, 49:26 & 50:41)

• God as Mystery (50:46–51:00)

  • Echoes Fr. Jim’s favorite: “God is not a problem to be solved but a mystery to be pondered.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Presence of God:

  “For me, that thing that’s greater than us is God. And that in God’s purest form, God is love, God is good. I don’t have a parole officer God…I always knew that I was connected to something greater than me.” (35:13–36:06)

• On Prayer:

  “I change the words to all the prayers, even at church…I just say, deliver us from fear and shame…” (20:35, 21:27)

• On Sin & Identity:

  “If you tell a lie, you’re not a liar. From the perspective of my research in social psychology, we can change a behavior. I don’t want to take on an identity…” (23:48)

• On Church vs. God:

  “Nothing about my faith life is punitive. People are punitive. God is not for me.” (49:44)

• On Vulnerability & Armor:

  “It’s not fear that gets in the way of courage, it’s armor.” (37:55)

• On the Mystical Life:

  “I don’t want to solve the mystery. I want to live in the mystery.” (50:41)

Key Timestamps

• Brené Brown’s religious upbringing: 06:02–10:21
• Journey away from and back to faith: 10:28–14:31
• Mysticism, rituals, and spiritual core: 14:56–16:44
• Finding God in others—challenge and insight: 16:05–18:15
• Prayer, the Examen, reframing classic prayers: 19:49–22:25
• Relationship with Jesus, cosmic/spiritual Jesus: 25:27–32:31
• God’s constant presence/being connected: 34:41–37:14
• Vulnerability, courage, and parallels to Jesus: 37:37–42:29
• Leadership, injury, and "Strong Ground": 43:38–48:45
• Advice for returning to faith: 49:16–50:46

Tone & Approach

The conversation is intimate, candid, and deeply reflective—often humorous, sometimes raw, and always honest. Brené Brown models the vulnerability she teaches, and Fr. Jim creates a gentle, intellectually curious space for big spiritual questions. Both highlight the lifelong, unfinished, and often-mysterious experience of seeking God.

For Reflection

• What parts of organized religion do you find difficult to reconcile with your direct experience of God?
• How has spiritual “armor” affected your own life, and what might it look like to live with more vulnerability?
• How might you adapt classic prayers to be more aligned with where you are now spiritually?
• What does it mean for you to “wrestle” with faith rather than solve it—and how does that shape your sense of the divine?

For more episodes and resources, visit americamagazine.org/thespirituallife.