← The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
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- [00:00]
Fr. Jim Martin
Body, mind and spirit. We believe if one needs help, so do the others. As part of Catholic Healthcare's holistic approach to treating the whole person. Here, people are not viewed as symptoms or insurance claims. And when we treat the body, mind and spirit, we believe the whole person will thrive. Catholic Healthcare Learn more at wecareyouflourish.org Sponsored by the Catholic Health Association. Welcome to the Spiritual Life. I'm Fr. Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and in their daily lives. And I am joined by my wonderful producer, Maggie Van Doren. Maggie, so good to be with you.
- [00:46]
Maggie Van Doren
It's great to be with you on our final episode of season one of the Spiritual Life.
- [00:52]
Fr. Jim Martin
And we are so excited. We've been waiting for this guest for a long time. We are speaking with Brene Brown. Can you tell us a little bit about her for those who don't know her?
- [01:01]
Maggie Van Doren
Yeah. So in addition to being my personal hero, Brene Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds the Huffington Foundation Endowed Chair at the Graduate College of Social Work. Brene Brown burst onto the scene in 2010 with a TED talk called the Power of Vulnerability. It went viral. I recommend it to everybody and she has many other great talks that she's done since. She is the author of six New York Times bestsellers and the host of two award winning podcasts. Renee holds a position of professor of Practice and Management at the University of Texas at Austin McCombs School of Business. And in 2024 she was named as the Executive Director of the center for daring leadership at BetterUp. Renee lives in Houston, Texas with her husband Steve. They have two, Ellen and Charlie, and by their own admission, a weird bichon frise named Lucy.
- [01:59]
Fr. Jim Martin
I am super excited about this episode. I've listened to several of her talks and of course knew of her beforehand. And then I've read her new book, A Strong Ground and it's really amazing. She is so open and vulnerable as you would expect her to be, and honest about her faith, her spiritual journey, and just being a child of God. So it's a really, really wonderful episode.
- [02:21]
Maggie Van Doren
Yeah. So we'll get to that interview with Brene in just a minute, but first we have our audience question. This one comes from Nick and it is how can one return to an active practice of faith after a long absence?
- [02:35]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, Nick, that's a great question. And I think the first thing to recognize is that any desire that you have to return to faith, spiritual practice, church is coming from God, right? That's how God would call us. Right. How else would God call us other than by awakening the desire in us. Right. To return? So to really take that seriously, that it's not just something that's coming from Nick, but that it's a call. And that can make it a lot less confusing because you have confidence that God is calling you. I would say also it's natural to come back to a faith practice or a religion or even a parish differently than when you left. Right. So sometimes people have to, in a sense, distance themselves from the faith of their childhood. Not all the time, but sometimes in order to reappropriate it in an adult way, they have to sort of see it in a new way and then come back. Right. And so it's okay if you don't see God or the church the same way that you did when you were younger. And finally, I would say just try to find a welcoming parish. Right. Or welcoming church or welcoming faith community. That's a great question. And Brene does a great job of answering that, too, in our conversation.
- [03:41]
Brene Brown
Yeah.
- [03:42]
Maggie Van Doren
And if you have a question for Father Jim, you can send it to us. We have been reading these, cataloging these, looking for the perfect opportunity to pitch them in the podcast. And so keep them coming. Even though this is the final episode of the season, we will continue to read those questions and take them up in season two. And if you want to do that, you can write us@thespirituallifemericamedia.org and now a.
- [04:06]
Fr. Jim Martin
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- [05:10]
Brene Brown
Foreign.
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Fr. Jim Martin
Brown, welcome to the Spiritual Life.
- [05:21]
Brene Brown
Oh, thank you. On many different levels, I'm excited to be on the Spiritual Life podcast and I'm excited and anxious to be in the spiritual life, period.
- [05:30]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yes, me too. It's a real honor for us to have you on, and so many of our listeners are very excited. So I'm just going to jump right in. I have read and listened to several of your talks, which I found super helpful, as millions have, and really mind expanding. And it always makes me really curious every time I'm listening to you. I think I really want to know about your religious upbringing. So can you talk a little bit about that and kind of where you are today?
- [05:55]
Maggie Van Doren
Yes.
- [05:57]
Brene Brown
I want to say that I'm excited to be with you, too. I think you're an important part of my practice.
- [06:01]
Fr. Jim Martin
Thanks.
- [06:02]
Brene Brown
Yeah. And so. Well, this gets to your question. I was, in some ways, I always say I was raised by a wild pack of Jesuits. So I was baptized in the Episcopal Church in San Antonio, moved to New Orleans young, like at 2 or 3 maybe. And that was probably my real formation, like my real spiritual formation went to Holy Name of Jesus Catholic School. My house became a way station for Jesuits, liberation theologists traveling back from Central America and kind of coming in back into New Orleans. And so we were connected with Holy Name of Jesus, the church and the school. I had a really wild experience in second grade.
- [06:54]
Fr. Jim Martin
Let me pause you. Can I pause you for a second? I am totally fascinated. Your house became a way station for Jesuit liberation theologians. How did that happen and what did that mean?
- [07:04]
Brene Brown
Well, they were just in and out of our house while they were traveling. And so I think they. I think maybe my mom and some of her friends were kind of ponytail cloth wearing. I don't know what they were, but they were involved in the church and involved at the school. And I think people needed a place to stay as they were traveling back to wherever their home churches were and coming, you know, from. From Central America. And so I think they stopped and stayed at our house. And I just remember, to be honest with you, a lot of good New Orleans food and a lot of cocktails and a lot of debate.
- [07:39]
Fr. Jim Martin
Okay. Well, three things Jesuit like food, cocktails and debate. So they obviously found a good home. So you started to say, before I interrupted you, you had an experience in second grade.
- [07:48]
Brene Brown
Super dubious. This is a questionable Catholic experience. I was in class and I thought it was God. Someone came to get me, pulled me out of class, and it was a bishop in his outfit. And I got pulled into a room close to the principal's office and we went through. What's the prayer? You know, the big one.
- [08:15]
Fr. Jim Martin
Our Father. No, no, no Hail Mary?
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Brene Brown
No, no, no.
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Fr. Jim Martin
Act of contrition?
- [08:20]
Brene Brown
No, no, no. The bigger, the biggest one, the Creed, the Apostles Creed.
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Fr. Jim Martin
There you go. Okay, so he invited you to say the Creed?
- [08:28]
Brene Brown
No, we went through the Creed line by line, I say, and to understand what it means. And he would ask me questions. You know, we believe in one holy, Catholic and apostolic at that one. Right. That's the Creed, The Nicene Creed. Okay. And he asked me questions about it, and I said okay. And then he handed me an envelope, and then I took the envelope home. And it was a note to my parents saying that from this point forward, I was Catholic, not Episcopalian, and that they need to get on board. And so they started their maranatha classes, their conversion classes. And so that's how I became Catholic.
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Fr. Jim Martin
Wow, that's a pretty hardcore kind of hard sell there by the bishop.
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Brene Brown
I don't know. I loved it. My parents were super excited. And that's when I really was first introduced to what would forever be my internal conflicts about the church.
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Fr. Jim Martin
You want to talk about that or.
- [09:18]
Brene Brown
Yeah. No, I mean, loved God was like crystal clear that that was a huge part of my life. Remain that way. Was not crazy about Sister DeVita. Loved the back and forth of the liturgy. Loved everything about Mass, and we went all the time and in Latin once a month. Loved all of that. Didn't like the rules used in punitive ways. I just. I was caught off guard, even as a child by the discrepancies, I think. And then I realized, I think by fifth grade that the discrepancies had nothing to do with God. And so they very much mirrored the discrepancies I think I saw with my parents, even, you love me, but why are you behaving like this? God is love, but why is the church behaving like this? And so I think that from a very early age, God was irreducible in my life. The church felt optional.
- [10:21]
Fr. Jim Martin
That's a great way of putting it. So you became Catholic. How old were you when you became Catholic?
- [10:28]
Brene Brown
7.
- [10:29]
Fr. Jim Martin
7. So take us through the next few years and maybe young adulthood. I mean, was spirituality and God a part of your day to day life?
- [10:38]
Brene Brown
I mean, we moved from New Orleans to Houston. We joined a parish there. It's been a very traumatic journey, I guess in some ways. There was a deacon that was a Jungian analyst that was very involved in our church. And at the time, my high school had the highest suicide rate of any high school in the country. And it was kind of first generation professionals, you know, with Like a Trans Am with a bow on top when you turn 16. Lots of drinking, lots of drugs, lots of loss of, you know, the things that hold families and communities together. And I. You know, I was going to ccd. I went through communion, confession, confirmation. I liked our church. I liked this deacon. But one Sunday, he talked about the suicides in our community, and we never saw him again. And my mom was like a very. I don't know if this is a thing, but she was like a very union Jesuit and very progressive in her ideas and thoughts and started to get really angry. And then. I've never told this story, so I've never thought about it. It's weird how it's all happening at the same time. But then this union deacon was my mom's therapist, and I went off to. I went to St. Mary's in San Antonio, a Marianist college. There just became a broader delta between the God I thought I knew and wanted to spend my life knowing and not knowing, understanding, unraveling, and the church. And so I think what ended up happening is my parents got a divorce. It was terrible. My dad blamed this deacon who was a therapist in the union. I was at St. Mary's I was a poetry major. My favorite professor was. She was gay. She was tormented by some of the more conservative students and not protected by the faculty. And at some point in that period, I was like, I'm done. I'm done. I'm done for sure with the church. I'm pretty done with Catholicism, and I'm not sure that I'm. I thought maybe I was going to be done with God. But that just elicited a chuckle from God. So I was like, can I just pretend? So do what you do, what you need to do. I'll ride shotgun through your pretending face. I was like, okay. And so it wasn't until, you know, later, much later, when I was probably in my early 30s and Steve and I had our first daughter, that I was like, oh, I need to make sure you can choose whatever you want, but I need to make sure at least you have an understanding of God. And so both of my kids ended up going to Catholic high school. I became an Episcopalian again. I converted, like, legally. I don't know what that I got. I got received in that church, and, you know, I had to do less reconciling. When you see, like, you know, 200 Episcopal priests and their vestments surrounding the Capitol in Texas around gun laws and you see people protecting LGBTQ folks, like, then I'm like, okay, this is less reconciliation. And I do love the Episcopal Church. My heart will always be Catholic and probably some level of mystical Catholic, although I Googled it to see if that was what I was before the podcast, and there's a couple of pieces that I can't abide. But the others I like.
- [14:31]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, first of all, thank you for sharing that story. You know, it's a grace to be able to separate what the church does from God, right? Because the church is not God. And so that's a grace. And to be able to hold onto that because, I mean, as you know, a lot of people will jettison God because they connect it so strongly. Let me ask you, though, what does it mean for you to be a mystical Catholic? What does that mean for Brene Brown?
- [14:57]
Brene Brown
The three holiest places for me, the thin places for me at church, and I haven't gone to church in before COVID maybe, are passing the peace, being at the rail and singing. And mostly because I'm doing those things with people I'd like to punch in the face, but it doesn't matter in those moments, it doesn't matter when I'm at the rail and I'm next to you and we are taking communion together. Now, I'm not gonna drink after you because I'm a germaphobe and I'm not a fan of that practice, but unless I'm sober, so I just don't do that. But. Or when I'm singing with you or I'm passing the piece with you, that's mystical to me. And I think mysticism for me is a lifelong street fight with faith as the only path to really understanding God. I don't need it to be easy.
- [16:00]
Fr. Jim Martin
And where's the fight? What are the challenges? What's the pushback?
- [16:05]
Brene Brown
For sure, I can tell you the pushback is super easy. That I think for me, somewhere early in my formation, my spiritual formation, I heard that I needed to find the face of God in everyone I meet. That just seems like bullshit sometimes. But so it does. It just doesn't sound like. It's like. It doesn't mean I have to respect their opinion or vote for them or, you know, not set boundaries or be friends with them. But I do have to find the face of God in everyone, and that just feels like a big fat bummer. Sometimes.
- [16:45]
Fr. Jim Martin
I think that's hard for everybody, right? I mean, it's, you know, someone that is mean to you or even, you know, Mother Teresa used to say that this is, you know, related to the poor. She used to call it Christ in distressing disguise. So for some people, it's hard to see God in these. In people who are really, you know, up against it. But I think it sounds like what you're saying is, you know, people are. Might be just jerks, right? Is that the idea?
- [17:10]
Brene Brown
Yeah. And they just might be jerks and they may have an agenda that is antithetical to my beliefs, antithetical to what I think God, life, care for others means and maybe wanting to do me harm, you know, politically or personally. And so I think it's interesting we have, in our. In our dare to lead work, we have a thing called living big. What boundaries need to be in place for me to be in my integrity and generous towards you. So I think finding the face of God in people has made me a less nice person and a kinder person.
- [17:47]
Fr. Jim Martin
That has made you a kinder person.
- [17:49]
Brene Brown
Yeah.
- [17:50]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yeah, I think that's right. And I mean, in the Jesuit tradition, you probably already know this. There's this idea of what's called the presupposition of the spiritual exercises, which is we always try to find. We always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, you know, the plus sign, and try to understand where they're coming from. And it's. But it's a challenge. It really is. Especially people are being mean to you. Right. Or being mean to other people. But there is always that invitation, and I think it does make us nicer people.
- [18:16]
Brene Brown
But don't you think. Don't you think I have so many questions for you? Don't you think the mystical part for me is don't you think God is in the wrestling?
- [18:27]
Fr. Jim Martin
I think God's everywhere. So God's in the wrestling that. That you're going through. So that's an invitation, I. I would say to see God in the other person, difficult as it is. And so it's in that struggle, right? Like Jacob wrestling with the angel. But I also do think that God is in the other person. But sometimes it really is difficult to see. And the invitation is to come to know them through their experience, through their stories. Right. I think that's why Jesus taught in stories so often, because that's how we come to understand. Not in, you know, debates or you don't. You don't come to understand someone just by looking at their resume, their CEO tv. You listen to their stories. And then you can say, sometimes even with people you really disagree with. Okay, now I. Now I see this person, right? I see this person as they are so many. Jesus's Parables are about, you know, how we shouldn't see people as other. But look, it's, it's difficult. I mean, I think it was difficult for Jews in 1st century Judea and Galilee to see Samaritans as. Oh, yeah, you know, and so this is Jesus who puts the Samaritan at the center of so many of his stories. Right? Like the Good Samaritan. So. And one of the things I love about your talks, you're very honest. And look, it's hard. That's the point. It's hard. So it's not surprising. Let me ask you, I didn't expect to go here right now, but. So what's your spiritual practice now?
- [19:50]
Brene Brown
Well, thank you very much to you and your people. I'm a huge daily examine person. That's very helpful for me. It intersects nicely with my work and my research on emotional granularity and identifying some of the things I'm feeling. I have a short version of it. I'm not gonna lie. It's not as short as the one that my son did. He went to a Jesuit high school and he's like. I was like, sometimes I feel like I'm cheating because I have an hour long version that I listen to and answer. Then I have a 15 minute. I just do the 15 minute. And he goes, we did the date, we did five minutes. And I was like, yeah, that's because you went to an all boys school. And they knew. They knew their audience.
- [20:27]
Fr. Jim Martin
That's right. Well, let me ask you, Brene, for our listeners. Yeah. Talk a little bit about the exam and how you do it and why you find it helpful.
- [20:36]
Brene Brown
I was worried this was going to come up and so I tried to memorize everything and then I was like, screw it, I can't do it. I have a recording that I listen to when I'm walking or I'm just on the mat. And it kind of goes through a list of questions that I answer. And it's got this beautiful music. And then it says, my favorite part is the God around us, the God between us and the God within us. And then I pray for the next day. But I'm not good at this because I change the words to all the prayers, even at church, like even the Our Father. I have my own version of that. And my kids when they were little were like, so mortified. They're like, you need to follow the rules. I was like, I can't.
- [21:23]
Fr. Jim Martin
Can you share with us you're Our Father?
- [21:27]
Brene Brown
I also have my own Hail Mary.
- [21:29]
Fr. Jim Martin
I'd Love to hear both of them.
- [21:33]
Brene Brown
I just don't say, deliver us from evil, because when I think of evil, I think of. This is my age. I think of the bad guy in Frosty the Snowman, the cartoon that we saw growing up that had the top hat and, like, the mustache. And so I just say, deliver us from fear and shame, because I think we are not good as human beings when we're in deep fear and shame. And a combo, I think, is lethal. Mm.
- [22:00]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, I think it's a great insight because, you know, the. The evil spirit or the accuser does lead us into fear and shame.
- [22:06]
Brene Brown
Wait, wait, what?
- [22:08]
Fr. Jim Martin
So. So I would say that the evil spirit. Right. Or Satan or the devil, however you understand it. I like to say the evil spirit, I think, moves us towards shame and moves us towards fear. This is why Jesus says, fear not all the time. You know, fear is so paralyzing for people. Right.
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Brene Brown
I love this.
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Fr. Jim Martin
Well, one of my. One of my favorite lines in the New Testament is, I'm sure you've heard, perfect love drives out fear.
- [22:33]
Brene Brown
I have. What does it mean?
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Fr. Jim Martin
Perfect love drives out fear. Meaning if you come into a situation where there is hatred and antagonism and fear, then by loving and living a life of love, you. You push out that fear. Right. And you. You know, it's like Jesus coming into the world. You know, he's pushing out fear. But I also think I sometimes say to people, perfect fear drives out love.
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Brene Brown
Oh, gosh, that's so heavy. Well, that's so true.
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Fr. Jim Martin
Yeah. I mean, in my work with LGBTQ people, if you're afraid of somebody and if you're afraid of the other and afraid of people who are different, then you're not going to be able to love them. So perfect fear drives out love, too. What's your Hail Mary? What's your version of the Hail Mary?
- [23:18]
Brene Brown
I take out sinners. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are thou, women. Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Holy Mary, Mother of God. Oh, yeah. I just say, holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us that are screwing it up. That's all I say. I don't. I don't. I don't like the sinner's thing. Like, I may sin, but I don't. I'm not on the sinner's train.
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Fr. Jim Martin
Meaning you. You find that the. The language uncomfortable or the focus on sin uncomfortable?
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Brene Brown
I think if you tell a lie, you're not a liar. From the perspective of my research in social psychology, we can change a Behavior I don't want to take on an identity, but I know there's the whole like we're all sinners and you know, that whole thing I'm not 100% bought on, on that.
- [24:06]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, I have to say that's really insightful for me because I've never thought of it that way because I often say to people, of course we're all sinners, right, because we all sin. But I think that's a great insight that to have that as your identity. Right. In the Jesuits, this might help a little bit. And the Jesuits, we often say people are loved sinners. So we do sinful things, but God loves us. And that time that people sometimes have an easier time with that. Let me ask you something though. This is really interesting. I'm so fascinated by all this. Here's the question I've been dying to ask you.
- [24:41]
Brene Brown
I'm scared right now.
- [24:41]
Fr. Jim Martin
No, no, it's a good question. It's a nice question. So I've listened to so many of your talks and as you know, I mean, obviously I'm telling you, you talk a lot about vulnerability and every time I listen to you I say I'm going to ask her this. So here's the question. I always think about Jesus. I always think about Jesus when you're talking because he is the model of vulnerability and openness, you know, that you hold out. So I'm just curious where he fits into your life and your spirituality and where also he fits into your teaching. Right. Because he is that model of vulnerability. Naked on the cross or just being who he is or crying at the tomb of Lazarus. Who is Jesus for you and how does he fit into your life?
- [25:27]
Brene Brown
I mean, he's got a lot of main character energy for me, but he is very tricky. Jesus is tricky for me.
- [25:34]
Fr. Jim Martin
Why is that?
- [25:37]
Brene Brown
I don't think I was right. I'm curious about this. I don't think my upbringing even in Catholic school was very Jesus. Yeah. Compared to non Catholics. I grew up in a God forward Catholicism and that Jesus was helpful in understanding what God in flesh, in the hard decisions you have to make every day if you want to live a God filled life. But I, I don't know. I don't. I saw a bumper trigger the other day in Austin here that said Jesus, deliver me from your followers.
- [26:17]
Fr. Jim Martin
Of course.
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Brene Brown
Yeah.
- [26:18]
Fr. Jim Martin
And I have that, I have that button. Someone gave it to me a couple years ago.
- [26:21]
Brene Brown
Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. So I think it's like water sports and football and patriotism. I consider myself to be an avid football fan, a lover of skiing and tubing, and a real patriot. But the people who disagree with me politically, the far right, they won all those things. And so they took Jesus along with football and all these other things. And so it's hard when I talk about it, when you say the word Jesus, I automatically create space between me and people I love and care for and fight for.
- [27:04]
Fr. Jim Martin
So are you saying that it's hard to relate to Jesus as he's been presented to you in a sense, or that Jesus has been co opted and so therefore is in a sense, sort of almost a threat? Is that the idea?
- [27:19]
Brene Brown
You know what Jesus I love? Which one I love? Richard Rohr's Cosmic Jesus.
- [27:23]
Fr. Jim Martin
Sure.
- [27:24]
Brene Brown
Yeah. I am a fan of the cosmic Jesus. I just think, I don't know, I'm always trying to figure it out, but when I pray, I never, I never talk to Jesus.
- [27:36]
Fr. Jim Martin
Thanks for being so honest. I, I guess I would ask you, I'm not your, I'm not your spiritual director, but I guess I would ask you is, what about the Jesus that. So there's the Jesus of whatever, people who kind of co opt him and use him politically and, you know, boil his message down into things that, you know, really don't make sense and don't sound like they're coming from the Gospels. What about the Jesus that you meet in the Gospels?
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Brene Brown
Oh, I love that Jesus.
- [28:00]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yeah, let's talk about that Jesus. That's the one I was curious about because he is so vulnerable and he's, I mean, you know, the, the image that we see in so many Catholic churches, which I think some people say is so violent, is also an image of vulnerability. He's naked and accepts, you know, as we talked about earlier, before we got on talking about Rene Girard. Right. Who Jesus as the scapegoat, you know, accepts these punishments and, and doesn't pass them on, doesn't let them embitter him. Right. And, and the sort of cycle of scapegoating ends with him. But I guess what I'm saying is I see so much connection between your work and vulnerability and love and openness and honesty and, and the Jesus I'll say we find in the Gospels.
- [28:48]
Brene Brown
Yeah, I, I mean, yes. Okay. I've never thought about this before, so I'm saying it as I'm thinking it, which I'm not supposed to do on podcasts or any forms of media, but I'm going to do it anyway because I don't really care. I'm in that season of my Life. There's a quote from. It's supposedly attributed to a guy who was a roadie for acdc. It's one of my favorite quotes, but I don't quote it often because I think he ended up. I don't know, something got shady with him personally. But the quote is, God is the blanket we throw over mystery and faith to give it a shape. And I thought, it's beautiful. I think, looking back, Jesus would have been easier for me if there hadn't been so many pictures of him. It's like when MTV first came out and then it ruined your movie of a song because they gave you the song, the movie of the song. I'm like, that's not what Hungry like the Wolf is about.
- [29:56]
Fr. Jim Martin
I love that song.
- [29:57]
Brene Brown
You know what I mean? Like, yeah, because it was the first video I saw. And then my dad came home in the middle of it, and it's like women crawling through a forest. And he ripped the cable out of the wall with his hand. So then we went back to having one thing on our television besides, like, the three channels, and that was Pong. But I think the efforts to humanize him, which I understand, he came down in flesh and blood. It's also my whole thing with communion. Like, is this the flesh and blood of Jesus? I'm not sure, but I'm going to break bread with people I don't like at the rail. I don't know. I'm conflicted. I mean, I'm for the Jesus and the Gospels. I believe that my relationship with him is contemplative at best.
- [30:46]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, I would say that's him. That's the real Jesus, you know, of course I would say that. And of course, the Jesus that's risen and present to us through the sacraments, through the Holy Spirit. It's interesting, Brene, that you say this, because often in spiritual direction, people have more trouble with God. Because they see God. Yeah, because they see God is the judge. God's going to judge me at the end. A friend of mine member memorably said that she sees God. I love this. As the parole officer. So not just that you're going to do a bad thing, but, you know, your whole life has been bad. And God's going to, like, get you and judge you and catch you. And oftentimes people respond more to Jesus because he's more relatable, and maybe this will help you. I sometimes say to people, there's. Let's say your name is Joe. There's Joe's God. Right? Which is this God of judgment and vindictiveness and a sort of a transactional nature. Right. If I do this, God will or this, there's that and then there's God. Right. And there's God as you experience God. And oftentimes I'll say to people, all right, how do you experience God? Like, what's the last experience of God you've had? And they said, oh, I was out in nature and I felt this sense of calm and peace and awe and wonder, you know, right. In my heart. And I'll say, well, that's God. Like, that's God. Right. Versus Joe's God, which is this God of kind of judgment and vindictiveness. Right.
- [32:12]
Brene Brown
Wow, that's interesting to me.
- [32:15]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yeah. I think the invitation might be to say, there's the Jesus that has been presented to you, and then there's Jesus in the Gospels. And maybe that's why you appreciate Richard Rohr so much and, you know, the universal Christ or the cosmic Christ.
- [32:32]
Brene Brown
That, that's really interesting because we have.
- [32:35]
Fr. Jim Martin
These preconceived notions, you know, that are put in us by sometimes well meaning people, sometimes not so well meaning people. And I often say to people, sorry, I'm not supposed to talk this much on the podcast, but oh my God, I love it. I often say to people, it's like an idol. So in the, in the Ten Commandments, you know, we're told you should not, you shall not have any idols before me. And most people say, well, I don't have idols. I don't have a little, like metal statues that I worship or little clay figurines. But sometimes the idol in your mind is this sort of false image of God that has to be destroyed. You have to kind of destroy these idols to let the real God shine through. We're going to pause now for a short break and we'll be back in a minute. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. It's Cybersecurity awareness Month, and Lifelock has tips to protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication, report phishing, and update the software on your devices. And for comprehensive identity protection, let LifeLock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information. Lifelock also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, safe and protected with a 30 day free trial at lifelock.com podcast terms apply.
- [33:54]
Brene Brown
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- [34:30]
Fr. Jim Martin
So let me ask you a question. How do you experience God in your daily life? Would you say, what, what ways does God make God self known to you in your daily life or in your prayer?
- [34:42]
Brene Brown
Yeah, I get emotional to thinking about it. I don't know, it's like asking a fish to describe water. Like I just.
- [34:48]
Fr. Jim Martin
That's great.
- [34:49]
Brene Brown
I can speak to the separation more than I can the presence of God. I never, I never don't feel it.
- [35:00]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, maybe for our listeners who might be listening and love and respect you so much, they're going to want to know, well, what does it mean to feel it? Like, what does that mean? How does that really sort of play out in your life?
- [35:13]
Brene Brown
I think it's just a very confident understanding for me that we are inextricably connected to each other by something greater than us. And for me, that thing that's greater than us is God. And that in God's purest form, God is love, God is good. I don't have a parole officer. God before I had theology from the Catholic Church as a framework because I went to Catholic school at 4, because in New Orleans you start kindergarten at 4. I thought that being part of human was magic because I never felt alone. I always knew that I was connected to something greater than me. And I knew as a kid in the backseat if I looked out a window and saw another kid in the back seat at a stoplight, that we were connected in some way through something bigger. And I didn't know what that was. I would not have called that God. And then as I started to understand more, more about faith, it gave me language and a scaffolding to understand this feeling of never being alone. Like even in those kind of like really hellish situations where like you're a kid and your parents are fighting, you can hear it through the wall. And that creates an intense sense of unsafety. I knew I wasn't alone. I knew that what I came to understand is God was with me. And that's maybe why Catholic mysticism, that's probably the origin story of that in my own life, was there was something mystical, something unseen, something that required faith that I felt and still feel no urge to figure out. Only to get more of it. I don't want it figured out for me.
- [37:14]
Fr. Jim Martin
Thanks for being so honest about us. I do want to talk about maybe the topic you're most well known for, if that's fair, your research and talking about vulnerability. And in a number of talks you've said that understanding, that brought about a kind of spiritual awakening in you, understanding vulnerability. Can you talk a little bit about that and the connection between vulnerability and spirituality for you?
- [37:37]
Brene Brown
Yeah, I mean this would be your very Jesus moment. I think maybe one of the biggest for me personally and also kind of what I teach because I do 95% of my work in organizations working with leaders now. So I do mostly leadership work. And I think the biggest aha for me was being completely wrong about my hypothesis on courage and that the greatest barrier to courage is fear. And we were studying 150 transformational leaders. And these were leaders, every industry, global leaders across the world. And when we identified these leaders and I said, how do you stay out of fear? I remember one leader kind of said something that encapsulated all the other interviews. He said, if you're making a list of brave leaders and you're defining brave as never being afraid, don't put me on your list. I'm afraid every day. So I was like cramini, this is my hypothesis. So what I learned in that research was it it's not fear that gets in the way of courage, it's armor. It's how we self protect when we're in fear. It's the armor and the weapons that we are drawn to when we feel uncertainty, risk and exposure. So the thing that we have to talk about is not fearlessness because that doesn't exist. And fear can be healthy in some ways. It's what's our armor. How do we self protect when we feel that way? Because the ways we self protect often move us away from, for me, they move us away from God, they move me away from God, they move me away from my values. I don't know that you could have my upbringing and then write the sentence down. It's not fear that gets in the way of courage, it's armor. And not immediately have a picture of Jesus on the cross. Like I just don't know that. That I just don't know. That's like reflexive Catholic school or something. But like that that was there. And so that's when I really thought how fun to be able to spend the rest of my life trying to understand this relationship.
- [39:56]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, you know, it's so Beautiful to me. I'm just thinking now, you know, Jesus comes into the world without any armor. God comes into the world without armor in the most vulnerable way possible. As an infant, right? Completely dependent on his parents. And God leaves the world as Jesus without armor, naked, on the cross, spat upon. And his whole life is really about disarming people. Right?
- [40:18]
Brene Brown
And don't ruin this for me. If this is wrong, I need to hold on to this false belief.
- [40:24]
Fr. Jim Martin
I will not.
- [40:25]
Brene Brown
He was not a sweet guy. He was a tough dude. Like, he did not put up with a lot of stuff, which I like that about Jesus, because I don't need a nice Jesus. I don't really trust nice people. Nice feels performative to me. Kind, compassionate, loving. That's the real deal. But in order to be kind and compassionate and loving, you have to be pretty tough. You have to say, this is unacceptable for me. I see what you're doing. I love you. I see your humanity. This is a no from me. I read him when I go back. That's another thing about Catholics. I did not get a lot of Bible education. Like, people who are my age that came up through evangelical, like, lines, they're like 32, 45. You know, it's like, there's, like football plays.
- [41:17]
Fr. Jim Martin
I don't know.
- [41:17]
Brene Brown
We didn't. I wasn't raised like that. But when you read the gospel or you listen to the liturgy and you've got a priest who's doing a really good homily, you see, this is why I think Carl Jung said that the paradox is the deepest spiritual gift ever given to humans. Because you see in Jesus an equal measure strength and vulnerability.
- [41:48]
Fr. Jim Martin
Exactly. Well, and I think, you know, you're absolutely right. He was tough. He was challenging. I mean, he got angry.
- [41:54]
Brene Brown
Yeah.
- [41:54]
Fr. Jim Martin
He turns over the tables in the temple. Right. He says to Peter, you know, get behind me, Satan, he calls the disciples, you know, you of little faith. He's tough. He's not just sort of this pushover. It's interesting we haven't mentioned it yet. Your new book, which is wonderful, Strong Ground, talks about that sort of being nice in terms of leadership roles. Right. Without being honest. But I never made the connection with Jesus, and he is. And I always find what's interesting, he's always angry on behalf of someone else.
- [42:30]
Brene Brown
Yes. Injustice, anger.
- [42:32]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yes. It's what's going on and how people are treating the temple. How are people treating the poor? And it's not. You're offending me.
- [42:41]
Brene Brown
No.
- [42:41]
Fr. Jim Martin
Right. It's on behalf of someone else. And it Is it is a kind of righteous anger. But you're right. Anybody who thinks Jesus is kind of like this doe eyed, you know, sort of namby pamby, like, oh, whatever. No, he's tough.
- [42:53]
Brene Brown
He's so tough.
- [42:54]
Fr. Jim Martin
And I also think he, I always think he was probably physically tough too. Right. In terms of just being a carpenter. I mean, he was priced, you know, he had to be tough and walking around and so. Yeah, let me shift a little bit. Cause I know I'm conscious of time. I frankly would like to talk to you for the next six hours.
- [43:11]
Brene Brown
I could do it too. It's so fun.
- [43:13]
Fr. Jim Martin
I would. Let me ask you, you tell this in your book, which is great, by the way, strong ground which I will hold up and recommend to everybody you do. At the very beginning, you tell this story about getting injured playing pickleball, which you tell very, in a very funny way. Can you talk about that experience? I just think it's a great story and sort of what it taught you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [43:39]
Brene Brown
No, I, I, you know, I played tennis for 30 years and during the pandemic, I had a couple of friends that said, you should really try pickleball. And I was like, I'm a tennis player, I don't do that. So it took me a couple of years to try it and two games to never. I will tell you, I've not picked up a tennis racket since that day. I play pickleball six days a week, two hours a time. I'm completely addicted to it. And I think about a lot of it is about identity. I think I have an identity that's really important to me as an athlete. I grew up kind of very athletic. And so I was a swimmer, played tennis. And it was the first time as an adult that I was like, I'm competitive again. Like I'm going to start winning some shit, like for real right now. Like I'm going to make people regret their life choices.
- [44:26]
Fr. Jim Martin
That's a, that's a good, that's a, that's a good motivation for going out on the pickleball court, right?
- [44:31]
Brene Brown
Exactly. So I wormed my way into this game with some folks who are better than me. First serve. I don't know what happens, but I was pretty sure someone had come in behind me and stabbed me. Like I fell to the ground. It was so humiliating for like 30 minutes, I couldn't get up. They finally got me in my car. I got home, it was terrible. About a month later, people kept saying, you should go see this guy named Tony. He's a trainer. You know, he works with a lot of injuries in sports, blah, blah, blah. So I go see Tony, I walk in, I'm like, look, I'm really competitive and I need to get better, so let's move some heavy shit and let's go. Let's like, let's start doing it. And he looks at me and he said, well, we're going to take a test first. So I was like, okay, whatever he take, I take the test. And he's like, you scored a 10. I'm like, no kidding. I know, let's go. And he said, you. You scored a 10 out of 22. Your physical age is like, late 70s. You have no core, and you are so prone to injury right now, it's not. I don't even know if you should be on the court. I mean, oh, my God, my feelings were so hurt, I just couldn't even believe it. And so he said, you have a compensatory injury because you have no core, and you're using inefficient muscle groups to do the work of large muscle groups that are just not in shape. Like, I kept just saying, I don't understand. What are you saying? I don't understand. And he said, you have no core, no lats, no stomach, no glutes, no core. So you're using arms and legs and you're getting injured. So we started working, and I said, can I lift stuff? Can I do something? He's like, no, we're not going to build on dysfunction. Well, for like a month, twice a week, everything he said to me about needing to build this core completely tracked to what was happening in the C suite in that, like, with the C suite leaders and the senior leaders that I was working with around the world, like, they were sustaining as organizations, compensatory injuries because they had no core. I mean, I think this could be true, to be honest with you, of the church. Like, the injuries I think the church can take on sometimes are because they're not paying attention to the core. Like, I want to come to you, break bread, feel God, sing with strangers, go to the rail. I do not want your advice on the people I should vote for. You are out of line. And that is a compensatory injury, I think, to the church and also to me. And so it was true of organizations. And then as I think about AI shifting markets, all the things that I talk about with leaders, the AI thing was, like, building on dysfunction. Like, both my trainer and my physical therapist said, we're not Going to build on dysfunction. Like, I know you don't like to do these like little bitty 3 inch squats standing on one foot. You want to like go knock a medicine ball into a wall. But we're not going to build on dysfunction. And I think, you know, Strong Ground is above all else a leadership book. And it's about transforming organizations and teams. And the metaphor was just so right there for me. Like, there was a moment when I was trying to do a lap hold down. I said, this hurts my shoulders. And he's like, Tony said, you're not supposed to be using your shoulders. And he's like. He called me brown. And he was like, brown, I want you to find your ground. And I looked at the floor and he goes, no, not the floor. Find your ground. Use your mind to tell your body to find the ground. Push your feet into the ground, making a connection with the ground. And for me, I was able to do it, but it was a very spiritual experience.
- [48:20]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, yeah. And you know, I would thank you for sharing that because it struck me in the book that it is, you know, obviously not just for C suite people, but it's for anyone in life and anyone who has a spiritual life. Because what is your core? Right. And where is your core and where is your ground? I think that's beautiful. You know, God. One of my favorite definitions of God is the ground of all being.
- [48:46]
Brene Brown
What?
- [48:47]
Fr. Jim Martin
Which I just love. Yeah. The ground of all being just so beautiful. While you're writing, as I said, I would like to.
- [48:54]
Brene Brown
I'm writing that down.
- [48:55]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, I would like to talk to you for next six hours, but we can't. We have an audience question to wrap up. Yeah, this is. But, you know, it really fits with your experience, so. It's from someone named Nick. And Nick asks, how can one return to an active practice of faith after a long absence?
- [49:16]
Brene Brown
Let me think about that for a second. I don't know that I have any wisdom there. I can just speak from personal experience.
- [49:26]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yeah, please.
- [49:27]
Brene Brown
Which is, I find my faith always there. Open arms, no judgment. And, you know, if I was dialoguing with my faith about my absence, I think my faith would say, I love that you followed where you needed to go. I'm here, you know, and maybe what you brought back from your adventure away from this will help deepen what we can build together now. I mean, one thing that's become very clear to me in this conversation that I don't think I've ever thought about before in my life is my God, my confusing but fun Rumble with Jesus. Nothing about my faith life is punitive. People are punitive. God is not for me. So I think being clear about why you're going back or what you want from it and being open to it, being completely different than what. What you're going to get is the nature of it. I. I guess one of the things for me that I'm realizing again through this conversation, it's been really. It's really meaningful to me. So thank you. I really appreciate it.
- [50:41]
Fr. Jim Martin
You're welcome.
- [50:42]
Brene Brown
I don't want to solve the mystery. I want to live in the mystery.
- [50:46]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, you know, you said that you don't have any wisdom, but that's very wise. The other great definition of God, or at least faith, is, you know, God is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be pondered. I'm sure you've heard that.
- [50:59]
Brene Brown
I've never heard that.
- [51:00]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yeah, that's one of my favorites. You know, I can't thank you enough. Thank you so much for your time. Brene Brown, congratulations on the new book Strong Ground. And, you know, I really want to say thank you for being vulnerable with us about your faith, you know, and also thank you for something that people don't do a lot on podcasts, which is to think out loud and to really sort of just allow people to see your own thought process. I'm really very grateful that you joined us today. So thanks very much.
- [51:27]
Brene Brown
Thank you for your work and thank you for being a part of my practice. And thank you for. Thank you for providing us with great questions and fewer answers. Those are actually the people I trust.
- [51:38]
Fr. Jim Martin
You're welcome. God bless you.
- [51:40]
Brene Brown
Yeah, God bless you, too.
- [52:43]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well. Well, look, that was just amazing, frankly.
- [52:46]
Brene Brown
Yeah.
- [52:46]
Maggie Van Doren
I can't believe we got Brene Brown on the spiritual life.
- [52:49]
Fr. Jim Martin
I was so happy that she was so open and vulnerable.
- [52:52]
Maggie Van Doren
Yeah, I mean, she is known for her vulnerability and for her insights on vulnerability, but the fact that she was able to model that just in the way that she took her time to think about the questions you posed and to respond and to sometimes say, I don't know, let me think about that. That's really interesting.
- [53:10]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, I really respected that, and I think it's going to resonate with people who, you know, are on their own spiritual journeys and struggle with things. And she struggled with the church, and she's even struggled with images of Jesus, which I found fascinating. And I think that's a great model to say. You don't have to have these answers kind of, you know, on the tip of Your tongue and, you know, with a snap of a finger. Yeah, I just found her really compelling. And. Yeah, I was just so grateful for it.
- [53:34]
Maggie Van Doren
Yeah. Now, on the subject of images of Jesus and of God, you had a real robust conversation there where, you know, you said very helpfully, there's kind of the images or sometimes the idols that we have around God and Jesus, and then there's the real experience of God.
- [53:51]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yeah. I find that over and over in spiritual direction that people have an image of God, and the image of God is often tied to. I didn't mention this in the. In the podcast, but it's often tied to authority figures in our lives. So if you had a parent or parents who were demanding and exacting and strict, Right. And very. Felt like, very transactional, like, I'll only love you if you do this, or if you had teachers or mentors who were like that, you often place those images on God and God becomes this, as I said, parole officer or judge or, you know, obviously God's eventually going to, you know, judge what we did. But the primary image of God as judge is really difficult for a lot of people. And, you know, you sometimes have to ask the person, what's your experience of God? Right. Who is God in your life? And it's often completely different from this sort of demanding parole officer. And you have to say, you know, if I were talking to you, Maggie, I'd have to say, there's Maggie's God, which is this sort of construction sometimes that, you know, has been imposed on you. Right. Of God. And then there's God. Right. And what's your experience of God? And when people say to me, you know, my experience of God is one of peace and love and joy and calm, and I'll say, well, that's God. So look for signs of that experience in your life to, you know, be open to God's presence. And again, you sometimes have to smash that idol. Now, that doesn't mean that everything you're taught about God by teachers and religious leaders is wrong, but often it can prevent us. That kind of idol or that kind of false image of God can prevent us from really encountering the true God who really wants to meet us as God is. Yeah, it's a real challenge for people. And also she talked about that in terms of Jesus. I found that really interesting. Maggie.
- [55:37]
Maggie Van Doren
You know, what struck me is sometimes the images or the false idols we have of God, they are creations of our imagination, and they kind of live in our heads. And I'm an intellectual person. You're an intellectual person. Brene's an intellectual person. Like with all of the academic study that we've all done, and there is nothing wrong with having that kind of intellectual curiosity and we can find God there. But I think it's interesting that our experience of God isn't necessarily nestled in the intellectual, but it is felt. You know, it's a felt experience. And I think as intellectuals, we can sometimes bypass that. That felt experience.
- [56:20]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yeah, I think that's true. I think it's kind of both. I mean, we want to know who Jesus was in the Gospels. That was a good part of our conversation. It's important to know who he was and who he is. Right. But it can't just be that. It can't just be something in the head. Right. It does have to be experienced. And it is, in the end, mystery. Right. And she alluded to this, you know, if, if I think Thomas Aquinas said, if you can define it, it's not God. Right. So ultimately it's mystery. But I really do think that sometimes we do have to kind of smash those idols in our minds of what God is and really encounter the living God.
- [56:55]
Maggie Van Doren
And one of the things that can help us do that is what Brene mentioned. The examine. Right. Could you define the examine for. For those who haven't heard of it?
- [57:05]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yeah, I was so touched that she brought that up. The examine or examination of conscience is an end of the day prayer. Sometimes people do it in the morning where you look back at the last 24 hours and you basically try to see where God was. Right. You start with gratitude. Right. Because we need to ground ourselves in gratitude. Maybe think about a couple things that you're grateful for in the last 24 hours and then just go through your day and say, you know, where did I encounter God? Where did I turn away from God? Look at places where you might have failed or even sinned, ask for forgiveness in your own way, and then ask for the grace to meet God the next day. And what happens is you start to see patterns like, oh, I noticed God in my interaction with Maggie. Right. For example, which I do. And so the next day when I'm with Maggie, you'll be more attentive to that. Right. So it's a way of really seeing where God was, which helps us to see where God is and where God will be. I'll tell you an interesting story. The former superior general of the Society of Jesus, Peter Hans Kolvenbach, in a book I did called How Can I Find God? Talked about looking back and it being easier to see God in the past and his image was, which is really beautiful, was where Moses says to God, may I see your face? And God says, no, but you will see me pass.
- [58:20]
Brene Brown
Oh.
- [58:20]
Fr. Jim Martin
Which I love.
- [58:21]
Maggie Van Doren
Yeah. In looking back.
- [58:23]
Fr. Jim Martin
Yeah. And looking back. And so the examine is basically. And there's lots of different ways to do it. You know, Brene mentioned that the examine is basically a, you know, 15, 20 minute review of the day where you see where God was. And that, again, helps you to see where God is and where God will be.
- [58:39]
Maggie Van Doren
Well, great.
- [58:40]
Fr. Jim Martin
Now this is our final episode of the first season of the Spiritual Life podcast. And I just want to say thank you, Maggie, and thank you to everyone who's involved in this.
- [58:49]
Maggie Van Doren
It has been such an exciting, wonderful, intriguing, interesting ride to be along with you, and I'm so grateful to produce the show.
- [58:57]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, wonderful. We will return with all new episodes in the new year, but in the meantime, we have a great podcast to hold you over called Hark, another podcast from American media, hosted and produced by Maggie. So, Maggie, please tell us about Hark and where listeners can find it. It's such a great podcast.
- [59:15]
Maggie Van Doren
Yeah. So Hark, as the name might suggest, is a podcast about the stories behind our favorite Christmas carols. It comes from, like, Hark, Hark, the Herald Angels sing. This is our fifth season, and so we have a catalog of, I don't know, like, 17 plus Carols that we've featured in the past. And in each episode, we look at kind of the musical composition behind the song. I talk to composers, conductors, artists about what really makes this song catchy and enduring, especially over hundreds of years sometimes. And then I'll talk to, like, a scripture scholar, a theologian, a cultural expert about the lyrics, like the meaning that these lyrics convey. And it is a storytelling podcast. It is very narrative driven. It's kind of like a deep dive, immersive experience into one carol per episode. And then we only feature four episodes in the weeks of Advent leading up to Christmas. The first episode will come out November 30th, and I can't reveal what it will be because we like that Advent spirit of anticipation and surprise. But it's a joy to make.
- [60:25]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, it's a joy to listen to, too. It's also, I guess you could say, really sort of well produced. Right. I mean, the music, everything, the interviews, the insights, it's just a joy to listen to. And I think what's been interesting for me is even songs or hymns or carols that I don't know right I've been introduced to them, you end up loving them by the end. So, Maggie, where can listeners find Hark?
- [60:47]
Brene Brown
Sure.
- [60:48]
Maggie Van Doren
Hark is on America Media's website. It's wherever you listen to podcasts. And we'll provide a link in the show notes so that people can go right there.
- [60:57]
Fr. Jim Martin
Well, thanks so much, and we will see you all in the second season of the Spiritual Life next year. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is produced by Maggie Van Doren, Kevin Christopher Robles, Will Gualtieri, and Sebastian Gomes, and myself, Noah Levinson and Adam Buckmuller engineer the show. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media amesmartinsj and you can read an article I wrote about this episode@americamagazine.org or by clicking the link in the show notes. Thank you so much and God bless you.
- [61:54]
Brene Brown
Sam.