Podcast Episode Summary

The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.

Episode Title: Cardinal Stephen Chow on being Christian in a Chinese culture
Release Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Fr. James Martin, S.J. (B)
Producer/Co-host: Maggie Van Doren (C)
Guest: Cardinal Stephen Chow, S.J. (D), Bishop of Hong Kong
Podcast Producer: America Media

Overview of the Episode

This episode welcomes Cardinal Stephen Chow, S.J., Cardinal and Bishop of Hong Kong, for a profound conversation about living as a Christian within Chinese culture, his personal spiritual journey, and the intersections of Jesuit spirituality, psychology, and discernment. The discussion illuminates how Eastern ideas influence Christian faith, the centrality of relationships in vocation, and practical wisdom for prayer and spiritual growth. Listeners also learn how to introduce Jesuit spirituality to children and the tangible ways spiritual practices, like the Examen, can enrich daily life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cardinal Stephen Chow’s Early Faith Journey

[06:18–13:18]

• Early Baptism and Family Background

  • Baptized at 10 days old; mother was Catholic, father converted to marry her.
  • Family “wasn’t really that Catholic”—sporadic church attendance.
  • Attended Catholic and then Jesuit schools.

• Struggles with Illness and Spiritual Growth

  • Diagnosed with severe epilepsy in junior high; frequent hospitalizations.
  • Initial fear of death led to seeking confession; moved by the kindness of a priest.

    “I expected some scolding. That did not happen. That really touched my heart.” — Cardinal Chow [08:03]

• Wrestling with Scrupulosity

  • Developed religious scrupulosity, going to confession excessively.

    “At some point you laugh. I have confession three times a day.” — Cardinal Chow [08:14]

  • Eventually learned that God desires relationship, not constant legalistic confession.

    “Confession is not a legal trial and God is not a judge... God wants a relationship, not a judge and penitent relationship all the time.” — Cardinal Chow [09:01]

2. The Influence of Chinese Culture

[09:44–11:43]

• Hong Kong culture deeply intertwined with Chinese, Buddhist, and Taoist ideas.
• Buddhist concepts, especially compassion, enriched understanding of Gospel values.
• Eastern approach: value on wisdom and “the way” (道), rather than Western black-and-white truths.

  “The east treasures a lot on wisdom, not so much truth. Truth for us is something… very black and white. And for us, our thinking is not really necessarily that black and white. We are a little bit more circular in our thinking.” — Cardinal Chow [11:20]

3. Vocation, Jesuit Education, and Relationality

[11:43–15:48]

• Profound impact of relationships with Jesuits during his school years.

  • Teachers provided support and “space” to discover his own gifts and leadership.

    “They just give me space to do that... Reflection is very important. How do we reflect from our own experiences?” — Cardinal Chow [12:56]

• Vocation as Relational Process

  • Inspired by those he admired rather than a single dramatic calling.

    “Vocation is always relational... It’s a process of identification. I identify myself more and more with those people whom I admire.” — Cardinal Chow [13:34]

• Cultural and Familial Tensions

  • Decision to become a Jesuit met with disappointment from parents and peers, seen as “not filial” (traditional family obligations in Chinese culture).
  • His sense of clarity about his calling provided inner peace.

    “I felt at that time very clearly that this what God wants me to do and also [what] I want.” — Cardinal Chow [15:48]

4. Jesuit Spirituality in Practice

[16:03–16:56]

• Cardinal Chow highlights two key pillars:
  • Inner Freedom: Essential for genuine discernment; requires letting go and trust in God.
  • Finding God in All Things: Makes prayer accessible amid ordinary life.

5. Achieving Inner Freedom – Letting Go of Control

[18:12–20:49]

• Achieving inner freedom is a process akin to the Paschal Mystery—dying to the need for control and trusting God.

  “Having inner freedom means I really have to learn to let go, trust in God... And that letting go is really like dying process, you know?” — Cardinal Chow [18:18]

• Advice on Fear of Letting Go:

  • First, acknowledge and name your fear to diminish its hidden power.
  • Share and pray about it, often revealing assumptions aren’t as true as they seem.

6. Overlap and Distinction of Spirituality and Psychology

[20:49–22:10]

• Spirituality and psychology overlap when both are grounded in lived human experience.

  • Psychology without spirituality risks self-centeredness; spirituality without psychological awareness risks disconnect.

  “Buddhism… for me is at deep psychology... and as a philosophy, but it also is a deep psychology.” — Cardinal Chow [21:52]

• Ignatian Spirituality as “Deep Psychology”

  • Resonance with psychology: inner freedom, discernment, honest self-reflection.

7. Cardinal Chow’s Present Prayer Life

[22:45–24:29]

• Maintains a daily prayer routine, particularly the Examen—the practice of reviewing the day to recognize God’s presence and grow in gratitude.

  “A happy person really needs to be someone who is grateful. I’ve never seen a happy person who is not grateful.” — Cardinal Chow [22:56]

• Emphasizes communal discernment: conversation in the Spirit, synodality as a spiritual exercise of group listening, sharing, and convergence.

8. Discernment: From Conclave to Daily Life

[24:29–27:20]

• In the conclave, discernment was less about debating candidates and more about collective interior listening.

  • “Holy Spirit just took over”—cardinals experienced a profound sense of peace.

• Practical wisdom: discernment isn’t for trivial choices, but for moments of real tension or competing desires.

• Essential Question: Do we truly trust the Holy Spirit?

  “Do we really let go and let the Holy Spirit guide us? That’s something we have to learn.” — Cardinal Chow [26:56]

• Advice: Take time to learn discernment, ideally through guided workshops or spiritual directors “who have suffered and stood up again”—those with compassion and life experience.

9. Storytelling & Passing on Jesuit Spirituality to Children

[28:32–30:16]

• Children (and adults) learn best through storytelling and personal witness.

  “Child like to listen to stories and adults, too. If you have a good story to tell that helps him to understand… that’s the best way.” — Cardinal Chow [28:54]

• Citing his own sharing with children from broken families: his own struggles (with epilepsy), finding hope that “God sent angels to me.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Scrupulosity:

  “Confession is not a legal trial and God is not a judge... God wants a relationship, not a judge and penitent relationship all the time.” (Cardinal Chow, [09:01])

• On Eastern and Western Approaches:

  “The east treasures a lot on wisdom, not so much truth... Our thinking is a little bit more circular.” (Cardinal Chow, [11:20])

• On Vocation:

  “Vocation is always relational... I identify myself more and more with those people whom I admire.” (Cardinal Chow, [13:34])

• On Letting Go:

  “Having inner freedom mean I really have to learn to let go, trust in God... And that letting go is really like dying process.” (Cardinal Chow, [18:18])

• On Discernment:

  “Tension is a way the Ignatian spirituality really can contribute to the world. How do we hold tension? When we hold tension, how do we really learn from it and be creative from within the tension?” (Cardinal Chow, [25:57])

• On Storytelling and Hope:

  “If you have a good story to tell that helps [a child] to understand what you want to communicate, that's the best way.” (Cardinal Chow, [28:54])

Key Timestamps & Segments

• [06:17–08:26] Cardinal Chow describes his baptism, family, and early struggles with epilepsy.
• [09:01–09:34] Scrupulosity and how he overcame it.
• [10:24–11:43] The impact of Chinese culture and Buddhist wisdom on faith.
• [12:53–13:53] Relationships with Jesuits, vocation as identification and admiration.
• [16:15–16:56] The centrality of inner freedom and finding God in all things.
• [18:12–20:17] Practical steps for achieving inner freedom, advice on letting go.
• [20:49–22:10] The overlap of psychology and spirituality, Ignatian “deep psychology.”
• [22:56–23:38] Current prayer practices: the Examen and gratitude.
• [24:44–25:33] Discernment at the conclave and experience of the Holy Spirit guiding choices.
• [25:57–26:56] Discernment in daily life and the role of the Holy Spirit.
• [28:54–30:16] Storytelling as a way to teach spirituality to children.

Closing Reflections by Hosts

[30:59–35:43]

• Fr. Martin and Maggie Van Doren reflect on Cardinal Chow’s wisdom, especially his teaching that “vocation is always relational.”
• Emphasize discernment as attentive listening to where peace, hope, and consolation are found; encourage seeking a trained spiritual director for such explorations.

Episode Takeaways

• Vocation is discovered and deepened through relationship and admiration, not just personal contemplation.
• Spiritual growth—especially inner freedom—arises from the willingness to let go of control, trust, and be open to God’s presence in all experiences.
• Discernment, at its heart, is about holding tensions, listening for the movements of the Spirit, and seeking wise, compassionate guidance from those who have experienced and overcome suffering.
• Storytelling and personal witness are the most effective ways to share faith, both with children and adults, fostering hope and encouragement.

Notable Quote to End:

“Child like to listen to stories and adults, too. If you have a good story to tell that helps him to understand what you want to communicate, that’s the best way.” — Cardinal Stephen Chow [28:54]