← The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
Cardinal Stephen Chow on being Christian in a Chinese culture
00:39:09
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A
Body, mind, and spirit. We believe if one needs help, so do the others. As part of Catholic Healthcare's holistic approach to treating the whole person. Here, people are not viewed as symptoms or insurance claims. And when we treat the body, mind and spirit, we believe the whole person will thrive. Catholic Healthcare. Learn more at wecareyouflourish.org Sponsored by the Catholic Health Association.
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B
Welcome to the spiritual life. I'm Father Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their daily lives and in their prayer. And I am joined by my wonderful producer, Maggie Van Doren. Maggie, good to be with you.
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C
Good to be with you, Jim. And we have a very exciting and interesting guest this week.
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B
Yeah, I'm really excited. We're talking with Cardinal Stephen Chao, sj. Maggie, can you tell us a little bit about him?
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C
Yes. So Cardinal Stephen Chao is a Jesuit priest. That's the SJ part. And he is the bishop of Hong Kong. He was named bishop of Hong Kong in 2021 by Pope Francis, and then just two years later, Pope Francis created him a cardinal. Prior to this appointment by Pope Francis, he served as the provincial superior for the Chinese province of the Society of Jesus. Jim, is it unusual for a Jesuit to become a cardinal?
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B
Yeah, it's a little complicated. So we Jesuits make a public promise not to, as we say, strive for or ambition high offices in the church. But sometimes, particularly in countries where there aren't many local clergy, the pope can ask Jesuits to be bishops. Right. And then some very rare times, those bishops or archbishops become cardinals, and there haven't been very many throughout church history. There aren't very many Jesuit cardinals now. You know, one of them was Cardinal Jorge Mari Bergoglio, who became Pope Francis, of course. And so Cardinal Chao is one of those rare Jesuits who is not only a bishop, but a cardinal.
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C
And what changes for a Jesuit when they do become a cardinal?
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B
Well, they're still considered Jesuits. They are dispensed, as we say, with the vows of, I think, poverty, certainly because they have to kind of legally own things and then obedience. Of course, they're not obedient to the superior general. But, you know, as Pope Francis often did, he would visit the Jesuit communities. And Stephen certainly considers himself still very much a Jesuit.
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C
All right, well, thank you. So a few more things about Cardinal Chao. He has a strong background in education and psychology and was one of the 133 voting cardinals who elected our new pope, Leo XIV. He is renowned for his diplomacy and work fostering dialogue between the Catholic Church and China through Educational outreach and cultural bridge building. So that's a very exciting conversation. We'll get to it in just a minute. But first, we have a question from our audience, and this comes from Enrico. So, Jim Enrico asks, what is the best way to introduce Jesuit spirituality to a child that doesn't have the benefit of being in a Jesuit school or parish?
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B
Well, thanks, Enrico. That's a great question. There's a couple of ways I can think of. I mean, I was going to laugh and say, you can read my book, the Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything, but if your child is a little too young for that, two ways to do it would be to introduce him to the practice of the examination of conscience, which Cardinal Chow talks about in our episode, which is just kind of a review of the day. And for kids, it might be just as simple as leading them through a prayer exercise. You know, think of something wonderful that happened today and thank God for it. You know, just kind of look back on the day. Also, kids often have remarkably vivid imaginations and so invite them to do kind of Ignatian contemplation where they imagine themselves kind of in a gospel scene. Right. I know a lot of parents do this with their kids. They say, oh, what would it look like? And what do you think Jesus looks like? What do the disciples look like? But also, you know, I think if you have a Jesuit education or a Jesuit background, just share things from your own spirituality. Right. To paraphrase St Francis of Assisi, who said, preach the gospel. Always Use words when necessary. You could say, teach your kids Jesuit spirituality. Use words when necessary. So I think there's lots of kid friendly or child friendly techniques that you can use. It's a great question.
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C
Yeah, that's great. I know when I was growing up, my mom was like a master storyteller, and I would just beg her for stories on end. And this is something that Cardinal Stephen Chow also talks about, you know, the importance of storytelling. And I mean, Jesus does this in the form of parables, but the degree to which we can include this in our lives and in our kids lives, I think can really amplify their spiritual life.
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B
Yeah, I agree. You know, tell the story of St. Ignatius. Yeah. If you're. If you're stuck for stories, I totally agree.
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C
Great. So if you'd like to ask Father Jim a question, you can write to us@thespirituallifemericamedia.org and now a word from our sponsor.
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B
Looking for a simple way to deepen your own spiritual life? Give us this day is a superb resource that helps Catholics stay rooted in both scripture and in prayer wherever you are, no matter how busy you are. It features both reliable and relatable spiritual reflections, essays on the lives of the saints, and of course, prayers to accompany you throughout the day. I'm honored to be an editorial advisor and I've been writing a monthly essay called Teach Us to Pray from the very beginning. And I use it too. I'm not just a contributor, but a user. And here's a great offer. Right now, listeners of the Spiritual Life can get 10% off their new print subscription. And by the way, their print subscription is really beautiful. The booklet's really lovely. So just visit giveusthisday.org spirituallife and join our community of Catholics praying together again. That's giveusthisday.org spirituallife and now onto our conversation with Cardinal Stephen Chow. Cardinal Stephen, welcome to the Spiritual Life.
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D
Thank you for inviting me.
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B
Thank you for joining us. So we're going to start at the very beginning of your life. Can you tell us a little bit about your religious upbringing, how your family's culture maybe influenced your faith?
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D
Actually, I was baptized 10 days old.
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B
Wow.
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D
Very, very soon. And my, my mother was Catholic. My father became Catholic because he want to get married with my mother. But I can say like, you know, the, my family culture wasn't really that Catholic. I, I was sent to Catholic schools, starting with, with Dominican school. It's kind of far away from my home. So I really depends on my, my father to bring me to church on Sunday. So it's sporadic, I would say my church attendance. And then in my high school, I joined the Jesuits, Jesuit school, the Jesuit school. I didn't join the Jesuit, join Jesuit schools. And my faith life became there was one thing that when I was in high school, junior high, I suffer from epilepsy and a pretty serious type. So I have to go in, in and out hospital during the year. So the first time was so afraid I might die. So I asked for a priest in case I may die so a priest will hear my confession. But the priest was very nice. The Daoism priest wasn't a Jesuit. Fris was very nice, very kind. I expect some scolding that did not happen. And so that really touched my heart. After hospital I went back to school and started having confession and things like that. Right. At some point you laugh. I have confession three times a day.
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B
Really?
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D
Yes. That's scrupulosity, you know, when you swing to another side to the point that the priest say, please don't come back Today.
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B
That's a wise priest.
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D
Yeah, that's another side of me.
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B
Can you talk a little bit about scrupulosity? Because there might be people out there who suffer from that.
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D
Oh, I always thought that there's something I left out in my confession which I should confess, and even tiny things, you know, and that really makes my heart, my conscience, not quiet, disturbing. So I have to go back.
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B
So what would you tell people who suffer from scrupulosity? If people come to you and have those same issues, what do you. What do you counsel them?
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D
I would really ask them, really trust in the love of God. I mean, the compassion of God envelops everything. Confession is not a legal trial and God is not a judge. So if we live our life according to our own understanding of canon law in a scrupulous way, that is not what God wants from us. God wants a relationship, not a judge and penitent relationship all the time.
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B
Did this priest enable you to see that? Or was that something that you came to on your own?
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D
I think I came on my own with God's help. No priest could convince me at that time.
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B
When you look back also, I've always wanted to ask you this. What was the influence of Chinese or Hong Kong culture on your faith, would you say?
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D
As you look back, Hong Kong is Chinese culture. Okay. Though we have sometimes called Hong Kong culture too, but basically Chinese. So I grew up with all the myths of the Buddhist stories, Taoist stories, so quite familiar with those ideas. I'm more maybe enriched also by some of the Buddhist ideas which is very complementary to our Gospel ideas. For example, compassion.
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B
Now, complementary in what way would you say?
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D
In a way it help us to help me to understand, for some inner freedom. What does that mean? Indifference. What does that mean? So maybe there's an Oriental taste in the understanding.
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B
You know, I remember Father Nicholas. So for our listeners, he was the former superior General. He once talked about Jesus as the way, the truth and the life. And I remember him saying that in the west we think of Jesus as the truth, right? There are kind of these truths and laws in Africa. He said, it's life, it's kind of celebrating. And I thought from what little I understood about Eastern theology and Eastern philosophies, he said that in the east it's. It's more the way. And I was thinking of Daoism. Did you hear that? Have you heard that quote? And do you think that makes sense that. That Jesus is seen more in the east as the way? Does that make sense to you or does that resonate with you?
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D
Yes, I think the east treasures a lot on wisdom, not so much truth. Truth for us is something, you know, it's west, it's Western thing, and it can be something very black and white. And for us, our thinking is not really necessarily that black and white. We are a little bit more circular in our thinking.
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B
So you're 12 years old at this point. Take us through your sort of move towards the Jesuits. Where did that vocation come from and how did it develop?
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D
I think it's really relationship with some individual Jesuits whom I found is right, is kind, wise and fatherly. You know, they spend time with me, and especially, as I said, I. I suffer from epilepsy, and because of that, I have problems in my academic life because when you have to enter hospital a few times a year and epileptic medication at the time was not as good as now, I think. So that kind of affected my. My cognitive development, too. But then the Fathers, the Jesuits, those who are really good to me, kind to me, give me a sense of value that I can develop. For example, I can develop in some Catholic associations, Catholic societies, and really let my own self, let my own leadership shine out, that I'm not useless.
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B
That's beautiful. How did they. How did they convince you of that?
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D
They didn't convince me. They just give me space to do that. Jesuit education often give students space to try out different things. That's part of learning things, right? Reflection is very important. How do we reflect from our own experiences? Just give encouragement in space. Doesn't really make me do something, though.
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B
And so how did you move from admiring these. These priests and being grateful for them to, you know, deciding to enter? Because that's a big decision. Because you could say, well, I. Maybe I'll be a lay person and just be, you know, grateful for these. These insights.
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D
But, yeah, for me, vocation is always relational and always. It's a. It's a process of identification. I identify myself more and more with those people whom I admire, whom I respect, whom I want to be one of them.
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B
Cardinal Stephen, can you talk a little bit about that idea that vocation is relational? Can you expand on that? And what would that mean, even for someone who's not a Jesuit?
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D
My experience for myself and for others. Very seldom we will experience what Saul turned into Paul, that big voice. That's not common. What is more common is that we come to know some people and we were attracted by what they say, by what they do, by their values. Is that what I will be proud of? Myself like you would do something like that. I think that's those type of attracting from one person alive, attracted another life. And they come closer and closer.
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B
That's beautiful. So how old are you when you entered the Jesuits?
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D
I must say about 24. So I was finished my, under, my graduate studies and then I told my parents and my parents were not that happy. They're quite. But they, they're kind enough to, okay, let me do what I need to do.
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B
Yeah, neither were mine. Mine said, you're, you're wasting your education, wasting your business education.
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D
I know, I know, I know. I, my, even my f los my peers at, at graduate school scolded me. The Chinese one scolded me for not being filial, not being respectful to my.
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B
Parents, you know, because you weren't being a wage earning son, Is that why you weren't being filial?
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D
No, I'm being the eldest son in the, in the traditional Chinese thing of being the eldest son, the responsibility to, to carry on the family name like getting married, having, having children and then to also to make, yeah. Wage earning like bread winning, that type of thing for family.
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B
Now, for someone who had suffered from scrupulosity, did that, did that worry you? Was that something that kind of ate at you?
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D
No, no, no, it didn't worry me because I felt at that time very clearly that this what God wants me to do and also want that. And I think that being, being a Jesuit, being priest, bring greater good to more people.
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B
So you enter the novitiate and you're introduced to Jesuit spirituality. What part of Jesuit spirituality appealed to you most? And, and maybe appeals to you most? What was it that you really resonated with?
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D
I really, even, even you ask me now in all this time, inner freedom appeals to me most. And that's not always that easy to grasp, you know, because nowadays we talk about discernment and if there's no inner freedom, how do you discern? Okay. And then another thing is finding God in all things. If we can find God in all things, our prayer life will be a lot more. I say it's accessible, more enriched than just being in one situation, one position. That's the only way I can pray.
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B
We're going to pause now for a short break and we'll be back in a minute.
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E
Loyola University Chicago's Hanks center is proud to support the spiritual life with Father James Martin and to highlight our featured events for the fall, we begin on September 25th by welcoming father Mark Massa of Boston College's Boise Center. Father Massa will present this year's Jesuit lecture entitled Catholic Fundamentalisms, based on his provocative new book. On October 15th, the center welcomes Eugene McCarraher and Christine Rosen for a robust dialogue on the promise and peril of technology, Laudato si AI and the experience of being human. Our October 30th event features Sister Ilia Delio, our visiting fellow in Catholic studies, who will present the Hanks Center's annual Teilhard de Chardin's lecture. Sister Ilia will explore new intersections between science and religion as they emerge in our technologically convulsive 21st century. For information about these events and to see a full list of all Hanks center events for fall 2025, please visit Luc Edu CCIH.
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B
Now, you talked about inner freedom. How does one get to inner freedom? I think would. Would be the question a lot of people would ask.
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D
For me, it's. It's really a process, like you, like a Pascal mystery type of thing, you know, because coming from a background, controlling is important. Having control my life, having control of my environment, having control in others are important. So having inner freedom mean I really have to learn to let go of trust in God. God will take care. And that letting go is really like dying process, you know?
- [18:51]
B
Yeah, it's very countercultural. I mean, letting go and being free of all sorts of things. The need for people to approve of you or like you, the need for you to know even as you know what's coming next. And I think it can be frightening for people. What would you say to someone who said, you know, well, I want to let go, but I'm afraid, you know, I'm afraid of, you know, I've been in control my whole life, right. And what happens if I let go? And you know, what would happen? And I. I'm afraid of, you know, kind of chaos almost. What. What would you say to someone like that?
- [19:21]
D
I will suggest them firstly to acknowledge they are afraid. And once you recognize it, you can talk about that that is not going to be a dark force behind you that is controlling you and you don't even know how to name it. So him being able to name it, to talk about it in your prayer to God and to someone, to your director, to someone you know, you could respect. The more you talk about it, the more it comes to light and less control. Because fear of control based on a lot of assumptions. And those assumptions are not tested usually. So if I talk more about that, people help me to see all those assumptions not really that valid. And that's of course the cognitive part and the effective part. And then also the effective part needs, I need to read a bit more and more. Learn to open to God. Relying on God.
- [20:18]
B
You know, that's a great insight. I mean the idea in Ignatian spirituality that the evil spirit wants to keep things secret. But you know, you're saying that if you, you know, if you bring them out into the open, people can say that's ridiculous, that's not going to happen. You're worried about these things. That's a great insight. You know, we know that you've studied psychology, you've got a doctorate in educational psychology from Harvard. What would you say the, the kind of realm of spirituality is and the realm of psychology, where are the places where they don't overlap and where are the places where they do overlap, would you say?
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D
Wow, that's a big question. I don't know. I am ready to say. Well, I'll say if you put everything, two things to the extreme, then they do not overlap. For example, I use psychology always in a very secular sense. Okay. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Okay. But it's only talking about the person, himself or herself without acknowledge there's other, other existence, other being around, you know, just very self focused, very, yeah. Self centered. That's not healthy. But on the other side there's spirituality. Spirituality that took us total out of concern of others also, you know, it can be very personal piosity. So that's one thing. I like Buddhism and not everything about Buddhism, but I like, I appreciate that Buddhism for me is at deep psychology as a philosophy, but it also is a deep psychology. It really grounded from the human experience.
- [21:53]
B
Would you say that Ignatian spirituality is a deep psychology too? Because I've heard Ignatius talked about as a master psychologist.
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D
Yes, yes, yes. That's why Ignatian spirituality is still rather much, I would say, accepted and welcome. We find it useful because it address humanity.
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B
Yeah. In my own experience, I mean I found, and I've seen therapists on and off, I found that those two paths are really united because, you know, so often they're both about inner freedom, discernment, you know, looking at yourself in a, you know, in a pretty critical but gentle way. And I find particularly when I direct people who are going to see a therapist, it just fits in very well, you know, to their spiritual life. That's a great point though that spirituality of course, you know, invites the, the relationship with God, whereas, you know, psychology may not always do that.
- [22:46]
D
Sure.
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B
Well, let me ask you about your spiritual life today. How would you describe your spiritual life today and what, what prayer practices do you have and what, what helps you the most?
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D
I, I think, you know, it's sometimes a struggle to devote an hour of prayer every day, but I think it's important just really the examine. The examine is an important thing and, and how to reflect back where God is. Finding God in all things in my life today in the half day, you know, and that just for me, is something I can be grateful for. I always encourage others, like find something you're grateful for in the day because a happy person really needs to be someone who is grateful. I've never seen a happy person which is not grateful.
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B
Has your spiritual life changed since you became a bishop, would you say?
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D
I say also because the church under Pope Francis emphasize more on synodality, on spiritual conversation. Conversation in the spirit. That helps too, because as bishop also help my team, my own teams, to do conversation in spirit. And that's part of spirituality, that's part of our spiritual life. It's not just a piece of assignment I need to do. And I think that should be part of our life, really personal life and spiritual life, is to learn how to listen together, how to share and listen together and finding convergence spirit.
- [24:30]
B
You've spoken about the discernment process that happened at the conclave that elected Pope Leo. Now that may be pretty mysterious for people listening or watching. Can you explain what that looked like in the Conclave with obviously with outbreaking. Yeah, I can.
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D
Upbringing.
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B
That's right. But what was the process like?
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D
The process you can actually go to the web and find out actually the process of the Conclave. Okay, so that's not a secret. But what is more important for me is how do we learn to listen to each other, to the Holy Spirit? There was no discussion during the Conclave about the candidates. No, it's pretty much on listening, observing, praying in ourselves, reflecting. Where is the Holy Spirit guiding us? I think that's an important way.
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B
Yeah. I heard one cardinal, he was saying this publicly that he felt after certain number of ballots that he said that the Holy Spirit just took over.
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D
Yeah.
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B
And there was a real sense of peace that he felt in the room. Now, what about someone, I mean, you know, very few of us are cardinals and even fewer of us are going to participate in the conclave. How does that discernment look for a person in day to day life? You know, what do you say to people who say, well, you know, that sounds really beautiful and kind of Exalting. But how do I discern in my day to day life?
- [25:58]
D
Well, I would say first, do not triple eyes discernment. Like what lunch do I want to have? What sandwich? What type of sandwich? You don't need to do discernment on that. Okay. Now, discernment is particularly good when you feel that there's tension. Tension is a way the English spirituality really can contribute to a world. How do we hold tension? When we hold tension, how do we really learn from it and be creative from within the tension? And that's creativity is really the work of the Holy Spirit when we listen. So I keep on saying, like, do people really believe in the Holy Spirit? That's my question. Every Sunday when we do the Creed. I believe in the Holy Spirit, right? But do we really believe in the Holy Spirit? Do we really let go and let the Holy Spirit guide us? That's something we have to learn.
- [26:57]
B
I think you're right. I heard once that Catholics have a theology sometimes that talks about the Trinity as the old man, Jesus and the bird. And so it's very kind of a limited understanding of the Holy Spirit. But I can imagine people listening now who say, well, I believe in the Holy Spirit and I want to discern, but what does that mean? And how do I do that and how do I discern the spirits?
- [27:20]
D
Then you really have to go through some benefit of a spiritual exercise or some workshop learning, because I cannot just tell you, this is what I do, because what helps me may not help you, because we, we all different personality and different backgrounds and cultural backgrounds are different. So we really have to learn takes time. You really want to do it. Go to a spiritual workshops that you think that people tell you, oh, this is great. This is what you can learn about discernment, or this is how you learn how to pray. Take some time and invest. You need to invest before you can harvest. One thing I think, I think for me is important and for others too. If you look for a spiritual director, find someone who has suffered whatever ways and who has suffered and stand up again. I think that's important. My churching director, I won't name him, he's suffering from alcoholism, so he struggled a lot, and that helps him become very human and he can really understand pain. And that's what was helpful for me.
- [28:33]
B
Cardinal STEPHEN this has been such a great conversation. We have a question from the audience that we usually take, and this one is from Enrico, and here's his question. What is the best way to introduce Jesuit spirituality to a child that doesn't have the benefit of being in a Jesuit school or parish.
- [28:54]
D
Oh, you really don't need to be in Jesuit school and Jesuit parish. Child like to listen to stories and adults, too. If you have a good story to tell that helps him to understand what you want to communicate, that's the best way. For example, if I want to talk to you about inner freedom, what story can be very real? My personal. Sharing, my. My own journey put in a lively way or intricate, interesting way to share with a child. That's what I did yesterday. I was going to a school. Okay. Elementary school. Talk about being a pilgrim of hope. And those students, many of them came from broken families. So you tell them your parents love you. That might not work. So how did I share with them? I shared with them my epilepsy, my struggles, the pain I went through a little bit. And see. But having God, I really appreciate that God was with me, and God sent angels to me, and because of that, I could feel the love. I could have hope.
- [30:17]
B
Well, thank you. That's so beautiful. And it's also a reminder of why Jesus taught in stories. Right. And not with a. Not with a PowerPoint presentation.
- [30:25]
D
Yeah.
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B
Well, Cardinal Stephen, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us. I also want to thank you for being such a good companion during the Senate. You were a real friend, and I really appreciate that. And you've been a friend to so many people, and now you're a friend to our. Our audience. So thank you very much for joining us, and we wish you a good day.
- [30:43]
D
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. God bless you all.
- [30:59]
B
Sam, Maggie, I'm glad you got to meet Cardinal Chow. One thing that I tell everyone is he was one of the most impressive people in the whole Synod. You know, we both participated in the Synod of Bishops, and I just found him deep and wise and patient and calm, and he was a big support to me just in terms of, you know, the LGBTQ ministry. I do. And just as a friend, and I really relied on him. So I just think he's kind of like this font of wisdom, and I'm really glad you got a chance to listen to him.
- [31:57]
C
Yeah, me too. And I'm glad we got to share him with our audience and draw upon that font of wisdom. One of the things that stood out to me as I was listening was this line he had. That vocation is always relational. And I thought back to my college days when I was discerning my own vocation, and I. I really did choose to become a religious studies major. And then go on to get a Master's of divinity. Because I looked around me and all of the most impressive, kind, intelligent, basically wonderful people in my life had an M. Div. And I just said, well, I don't know what I'm going to do with this degree, but I certainly want to model my life in a way after them. And so that really resonated with me. But I'm curious how you also interpreted that line as vocation being relational.
- [32:46]
B
Yeah, I'm glad you noticed that, because that really stuck out to me. And once he unpacked it and talked about being able to identify with someone, in his case with Jesuit priests who he found very compassionate, it really made a lot of sense. And, you know, as he said, a vocation can't just exist in the abstract. Right. You have to think about, you know, who are the people that I would. Would like to be like. Right. Whether it's M. Div. Students. Right. Grad students or Jesuit priests or, you know, just someone in our lives. And I think that that works not only in sort of overtly religious places. You could say, hey, I want to be a good mom like this mother, you know, that I see, or I want to be a good attorney or a good teacher. But I really, you know, I have never thought about it that way. So I was really glad he. He brought that up and he kind of explicated it.
- [33:30]
C
Yeah. And another thing that he brought up or kind of introduced into our conversation was the role of discernment, certainly at the conclave that elected Pope Leo the 14th. But discernment is and should be a part of all of our lives. And so how do Jesuits, you know, you're a Jesuit, he's a Jesu. How do Jesuits really think about discernment, discernment of spirits?
- [33:54]
B
Well, I think his answer was really well put, which is that it depends on the person and kind of where you are. It's such a big topic, but I would say it's really listening to voices. And I don't mean natural, physical voices, but impulses that come from within you or outside of you that lead you toward God and lead you away from God. You know, so what is giving you more peace, more consolation? What is giving you hope? That's a big one. Versus what is making you despairing or frustrated or always angry. Now, there's nothing wrong with those emotions, but, you know, where are you being led? Interiorly. And I think one of the interesting things about discernment is that not only does God want us to make good decisions, but God will help us to make good decisions. And it is in kind of understanding where those impulses come from and where they lead to, which is, you know, what he was saying, you know, in his conversation. So it's quite subtle and I do think having a spiritual director helps and learning a little bit about it. But, you know, it's essentially trusting that God is going to speak to you on a very deep level and sort of incline your heart one way or the other through these emotions, through these feelings and through these thoughts. And so in that way you can discern, you know, where God wants you to go the best, the best we can do. But he is right. It, it does depend on each person and kind of where they are in their lives. I thought he did a great job of explaining it.
- [35:11]
C
Yeah, absolutely. And because we're all created uniquely, that makes a spiritual director all the more important. You know, there are so many desires and emotions and voices really that we are contending with on a day to day basis. And so to be able to sit down with someone and explore what those are and to, you know, as you said, look towards the places where you feel most consoled, at peace, and then the places where you feel more despairing, that's actually an art.
- [35:44]
B
It is. And it's really, if I would suggest to people who are looking for a spiritual director, always get someone who's trained, you know, because you really, it's not enough simply to be holy. Saint Teresa of Avila said if it was up to picking someone who's wise and someone who's holy, she picks someone who's wise who is kind of really trained. Well, we want to thank Cardinal Chow and everyone for listening. To hear more about this interview and the spiritual life, you can read an article I've written by clicking the link in the show notes or visiting americamagazine.org the Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is a production of America Media. It's produced by Maggie Van Dorn and our executive producer, Sebastian Gomes. We record it in the William James Jay Loshert studio in New York City with the production assistance of Kevin Christopher Robles, Grace Linehan and Grace Copps. Our audio engineer is Noah Levinson. Adam Buckmuller edited the video of this episode which will be made available on America Media's YouTube channel. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media as James Mercury Martin, sj. Also, please help us grow the show by leaving a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. If you love the spiritual life, then we have even more to offer you on America magazine's website. Keep informed and inspired about our Catholic faith. Become a subscriber today@americamagazine.org subscribe or click the link in the show notes. Thanks so much and God bless you.