← The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
Catholic comedian Jim Gaffigan sometimes feels like a fraud
00:52:58
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- [00:00]
A
Body, mind and spirit. We believe if one needs help, so do the others. As part of Catholic Healthcare's holistic approach to treating the whole person. Here, people are not viewed as symptoms or insurance claims. And when we treat the body, mind and spirit, we believe the whole person will thrive. Catholic Healthcare. Learn more at wecareyouflourish.org Sponsored by the Catholic Health Association. Hey, everyone. Fr. Jim Martin here. Before we jump into this episode of the Spiritual Life, I want to share an important piece of context. We recorded this episode just before the death of Pope Francis and the election of Pope Leo xiv. Welcome to the Spiritual Life. I'm Fr. Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and in their daily lives. And I'm joined by my wonderful producer, Maggie Van Dorn. Maggie, good to be with you.
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B
It's good to be with you here in New York City.
- [01:02]
A
Yes. Welcome home.
- [01:04]
B
Yeah, thank you. I love doing this podcast with you, Jim, because we get to go so deep with our guests, but you have a real knack for keeping things light and fun. And in this episode, I think very comical.
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A
Yeah. So I'm really excited that we have one of my favorite people and I would imagine some of our audience's favorite comedians, Jim Gaffigan. He's really such a nice guy. I've gotten to know him a little bit over the years. And then he was part of this contingent of comedians and comics that went to Rome last year, which was a lot of fun. We'll talk about that in the interview. But yeah, why don't you tell our listening audience a little bit more about who he is.
- [01:44]
B
So if you haven't watched Jim Gaffigan yet, do yourself a favor and look up one of his 11 comedy specials. I think there's at least five on Netflix. Jim is a very funny and talented comedian. He's an actor. He's the New York Times bestselling author of two books, dad is Fat and Food A Love Story. And Jim is often recognized for his real self deprecating humor. He has some great bits about being Catholic and the father of fat five kids with his wife Jeannie, who's also a co writer and co producer on all of his shows and many projects.
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A
Yeah, and you'll get to just hear some of that self deprecating humor in our interview coming up. But first, I think we have some questions from our audience.
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B
Yeah, that's right. So we have two questions that I think are very similar. I wanted to give airtime to them both. The first is from Dolores. And she asks, how do we find general optimism and peace during these dark times? And the second is from Mary, who says, how do we stay hopeful when everything is so dark right now? So really looking for hope, optimism, and peace.
- [02:58]
A
Yeah, great questions. And I think a lot of us feel that way. You know, something that I found myself saying to a lot of people during the pandemic was something very simple from Ignatian spirituality, which is that despair is never coming from God, ever, ever. Because despair says nothing can change. It's a dead end. Anytime you use universal words, everything stinks. Nothing's going to change. No one cares for me. We'll never get out of this. That's a sign that you're really moving into despair. My life is the worst. And so I think we have to move away from that into hope, because really, hope is the voice that's coming from God. So where do we find it? Well, part of it is we look around. We look around for signs of God's presence. But the hope is sometimes a choice, right? To say, you know, I'm not gonna get mired in that. The other thing is, it's not unreasonable to be sad or depressed or frustrated, frustrated or angry. But that's not the whole story. And you can also choose how you respond, right? You can't choose the emotions. I always say, if someone punches you on the face in the subway, you're gonna be angry. You can't choose that. But. But you can choose how you respond. And in these times of darkness, we can choose how we respond. And we can move towards hope. And we can try to be more hopeful in other people's lives, too, right? To try to be a good influence. Thank you, Dolores and Mary, for those great questions that I think echo probably a lot of what people in the audience are thinking about.
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B
And if you would like to ask a question to Father Jim, you can write to us at the spiritual life@americamedia.org.
- [04:36]
A
And now a word from one of our sponsors. Looking for a simple way to deepen your own spiritual life? Give Us this Day is a great resource that helps Catholics stay rooted in scripture and in prayer wherever you are, no matter how busy you are. It features both reliable and relatable spiritual reflections and prayers to accompany you throughout the day. And I'm really honored to be an editorial advisor. I've been one since the very beginning. And I write a monthly essay called Teach Us to Pray about Prayer. And I use Give Us this Day every single day. It's a great resource. And. And here's a great offer. Right now, listeners of the Spiritual Life can get 10% off their new print subscription. It's online, by the way, as well. Just visit giveusthisday.org spiritual life and join this community of Catholics praying together again. That's giveasthisday.org spiritual life. So, Jim Gaffigan, welcome to our studio.
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C
Thank you for having me. It's great to be here with you.
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A
Sinners and with your spirit.
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C
And with my spirit.
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B
How did you two gems meet?
- [06:05]
C
Well, I believe we were doing the Odd Couple in Hartford, and I was playing Felix, and he was playing Oscar. No, I don't. I think through my wife. I assume every Catholic connection is my wife, but there's so many different connections now. Jim's disappointed. He's like, oh, my gosh, it was.
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A
Such a special meeting. That's right. It was. Actually. We did Waiting for Godot, and the Times loved it.
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C
The Times loved it. And that was.
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A
I think you came in to our show called Faith and Focus REM. We were gonna have, like, a little TV show that didn't really go anywhere, but you were great. You were brilliant.
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C
I do so many Catholic shows. You are. You're kind of like the NPR PBS of ewtn. Right. Them being kind of mainstream. This is kind of like the Young Turks Catholic Channel.
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A
We'll take that.
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C
Yeah, yeah.
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A
Now, speaking of Catholic, you were raised. I see how I segged so nicely into that.
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C
Yeah, I like it.
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A
Thank you. You were raised Catholic. You identified as agnostic for a while, even though to Georgetown. Go Hoyas.
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C
Yes.
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A
Yeah. Can you talk about your faith journey?
- [07:14]
C
Yeah, sure. I mean, I should preface this all by saying I feel like a fraud. I am a fraud. I've been going to church off and on my entire life, and still to this day, I am following the crowd when it comes to kneeling or standing in church. I'm like, all right, we're going down. All right, we're going down. Okay.
- [07:36]
B
Is this exclusive to your Catholic faith, or do you feel like you have imposter syndrome in other areas?
- [07:42]
C
Oh, that's a good point, I think. Yeah, I think I do have imposter syndrome, but I think my. My faith experience is such a fluid thing anyway. Right. So, like, you go through moments in your life. Like, I remember hearing Mother Teresa had doubts. You're like, mother Teresa had doubts. You know, so, I mean, I also really appreciate the notion of mercy. You know, like, that's a pretty important thing, like, the idea that there is forgiveness for these horrible things. So, like, I was probably in my 30s, 40s, when I really moved away from being just the typical cultural American Catholic. And I don't feel any guilt about it. I used to feel guilty, like, oh, my gosh, my faith has given me so much, and I'm not really in touch with it. Like, you know, whether it's attending church or. Like, my family, we used to do the rosary every night for a while. And then, you know, around my wife's sickness, I feel like we were more in touch with it. And maybe it's a form of rationalization, but I feel as though there is kind of this extended experience where it's like, it's gonna be imperfect. My experience with my faith or my. Maybe my doubts or my convictions even. I guess maybe as a comedian who's kind of even admitting that I'm Catholic, because the Catholics have done some amazing things over the past hundreds and hundreds of years. Is that. That's enough punk rock? Anyway, so I don't feel like I have to be edgier. Yeah. But I also feel like, particularly in the entertainment industry or people that are known as Catholics, I'm not going to be as knowledgeable as Stephen Colbert or have the conviction of Mark Wahlberg. And I look at them and I'm like, it's amazing. But some of his. I don't have Colbert's intellect or who's got the time? Like, how does he know some of the history? Has he read everything?
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A
Well, I would say don't sell yourself short. But also, you were agnostic for a while. I'm curious what kind of brought you back. And when was that?
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C
Yeah, well, I describe it as. I lived across from St. Patrick's Old Cathedral before it was even called a cathedral. It's just called a church. St. Patrick's Old Church. And I lived across from it for 15 years, never went in it, and then met my wife on the neighboring block, and then, you know, got married in that church. All my children were baptized, confirmed in that church. But the evolution, to answer your question, was, I think some of it was becoming a parent, but I think it was much more. For me, it was a personal notion of grace or mercy or that even though you failed multiple times, that God wants you to do better, if that makes sense.
- [10:52]
A
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, mercy and grace sound like they're very important in your spiritual life. Is that something you came to intellectually, kind of appreciating it, or was it kind of as a result of an experience. Experience in your life that you had where you Felt mercy or grace or forgiveness.
- [11:06]
C
I think it was self appointed. Like, I think that, you know, I had gone through my twenties going through therapy and stuff like that. And, you know, my last name in Gaelic means anxious. So I imagine my ancestors were all crazy and all my children are crazy, so I did some of the work. But there was, you know, something that I had to process and make that asserted decision to kind of embrace this notion of giving up authority in some ways.
- [11:43]
A
You mean your own kind of control? Is that what you mean?
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C
Yeah. So, like, I shouldn't feel guilty for things that, you know, like punishing myself serves no purpose. And that's not to say that you don't learn from it, but the whole notion of confession, which, again, I don't go to confession that often, but like, the whole notion of speaking something, acknowledging it and having an awareness around doesn't alleviate everything, but it acknowledges it. It's kind of a form of maturity in a way.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So we've heard Jim talk about mercy. And not to put you on the spot, but how does the church understand mercy and the relationship with God? I mean, we obviously think about a merciful God.
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A
Yeah. Big question. My favorite two answers come from Thomas Merton, the Trappist monk. And he said, God is mercy within mercy within mercy, which I love. It's so beautiful. I mean, and Jesus, you know, for the Christian, if you have a question of what God is like God the Father, you look at Jesus, right, And you see Jesus as someone who is embodying mercy. His. Every time he sees someone who's struggling, we read his heart was moved with pity. Right. Which was actually deeper in the Hellenistic world. Is his guts like he felt it in his guts? Yeah, yeah. Which I love. The splanknon is the Greek word just to kind of dazzle everybody here.
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B
I think you were ready for this message.
- [13:06]
A
Yeah, thank you very much. But the other one that I really like is Jim Keenan, who is a Jesuit priest and moral theologian at Boston College. And he said, I love this. He uses this for both mercy and compassion. Mercy is the willingness to enter into the chaos of another person's life. So isn't that beautiful? Let me ask you, you alluded to this, you know, as someone who's known for being Catholic. Is that hard in the. Either the comic world or the entertainment world?
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C
I wouldn't say it's hard. It is interesting because among my peers, occasionally someone will curse in front of me and then they'll apologize, which is very. But in the entertainment industry, it's such a Perception industry. It's not like I've intentionally created this or they're wrong either, or they're being lazy in their interpretation of you. They've seen me do this stand up. This is kind of a tangent, but, like, when I talk about my kids and being a dad, it's like, well, if you are a dad, what else are you supposed to talk about? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I would think it would be weird if I didn't complain about my kids, but I think it's strange to have. You know, because I'm sure I'm considered Catholic because I talk about it, but I feel like a lot of my standup, I'm confused by it. I'm not doing this great advocacy. But I also have seen through my standup, when I talked a lot about even Hot Pockets, it's like, it helped. Hot Pockets, Yeah. So when I talk about being Catholic, even if I'm the ignorant, befuddling one, indirectly, and that wasn't the design behind it, there's a lot of people that are like, yeah, I'm kind of like that, too.
- [14:50]
A
Well, or like, you're a normal person, and maybe I could be. I'm a normal person, too. And so goes the thinking. And so therefore, I can be Catholic, too. I always wonder, and I'm not talking about any particular joke that you've made, but if you make fun of the church or is there any. I'm always curious about this. Is there any part of you that thinks, like, ooh, like, I feel guilty, or is it more of a professional thing where you say, this is kind of funny and funny is funny?
- [15:12]
C
You know, like, there's part of me that wishes I was this great social satirist that was George Carlin, you know, or raging against the machine. But I've learned from experience that the target has to be me rather than if it's someone else, even if it's this great authority like the Catholic Church, I'm not an effective messenger. There are people that are very good at that. Like, there are comedians that are very good at dirty jokes or whatever. And you have to kind of know what you can do. I would never want it to appear like I'm criticizing someone's belief system because I think that, you know, we're all trying to get by. So, like, whatever gets you through the night, as long as it doesn't hurt someone else. You know what I mean? But, yeah, no, I feel like the Catholics love it because I think that it's also done in a way where Even when we were doing the Pope thing. Cause you didn't say this, but there was kind of. When you were asking for names, it's like, there's a difference between people that are, like, that criticize the Catholic Church for the failings that are factual. And then there are people that kind of just take potshots to take pot shots. And so there is a fine distinction there. And some of those people are my friends, but, like, they're not gonna be able to look at the grandeur of, you know, Vatican City and see that, like, these human beings were trying to execute these principles that, you know, some Jewish guy in Israel was doing. You know what I mean? It's. They're not going to be able to get beyond that. They're like, sell the paintings, you know?
- [16:55]
A
I know.
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C
You know what I mean?
- [16:56]
A
So for people that don't know, the Pope invited comedians and comics from all around the world to an audience in June last year. And Jim among them came. And Jim also helped me. I guess I can say this, helped me vet the list.
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C
Well, some of it. You were asking for names. Because I did think that the Pope would want some diversity. He would want Rami, he would want Tig, you know, like. Cause some of his message was the light. Cause I think Tig's a great example of that. Like, her comedy brings a lot of light, you know, and it is not about making someone else feel bad. It's about the humor of it.
- [17:36]
B
What was the whole aim of this gathering? To make the Pope laugh.
- [17:41]
A
You know, he's had audiences with different groups of people, different communities, different architects, artists, sports people. And I thought this was great. And I wasn't sure how it was gonna come off. I thought, is this gonna seem strange for the Vatican or pandering in some way? But it was fantastic. And his talk was great, and people really liked it a lot. And it was fun. And obviously, there were a lot of funny comments made, too.
- [18:04]
C
No, it was so, so cool and so weird because it was essentially, the Pope invited all the kids that misbehaved in church or synagogue or in a mosque. And they were all in this room. And you've got Jimmy Fallon, who's kind of like, I don't know how Jimmy Fallon got through school. Cause he is so funny and so playful, and he was so excited. He was like a little boy. He's like, I can't believe we're here. And so he's, like, bopping around.
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A
Well, he, like, leapt up about a minute before the Pope came in, and the Swiss Guards had just left, and he leapt up and turned around and said, like, hey, something like, I guess you're wondering why I called you all here. Everybody left, and then the Pope's gentleman, the papal gentleman, came in. And a friend of mine told me afterwards, if he had done that when the Swiss Guard were there, like, leapt up, he would have been taken out. So very good timing on his part as well.
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B
Well, so, Jim, you've written a book between Heaven and Mirth on the role of joy and humor. And, Jim, you ooze comedy. So I'm wondering how the both of you think about the role of humor in the spiritual life and maybe even the importance of it.
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A
Wow. You first.
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C
Me first?
- [19:18]
A
Yeah. You're the professional.
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C
Oh, gosh. Well, there is something about the value, and I'm not trying to make it sound like comedians have a job that's more important than itself, but there is something that, in these difficult times, and I witnessed it also during the pandemic, and, you know, like, there is the science. Maybe it's in your book of laughter and how it is kind of healing and, you know, the blood pressure goes down and stuff like that, and alleviation of stress. But I remember I was talking to a comedian, he was like, we were talking about, you know, how stressful economic times could get. And he goes, we're going to be fine, because people will need that. And his point was, if they go to a movie, there's a gamble if the movie's good. If they go to a comedy show of a comedian, they know it's funny, they know what they're going to get. It was very strange. I know that's different from the question you answered, but, like, some of it is. I don't understand it. I sometimes think of, like, when I'm coming up with stuff or writing stuff, I think of, like, you know, Bono used to talk about how when he was writing a song, the Holy Spirit would come in and kind of. Kind of inspire him. Because, like, sometimes when a comedian's on stage, you know, they're riffing, but in some ways, it's the moment, and the humor is. Some of it is. You could say it's you. But, like, there is something kind of where the improvised element, where there is kind of something, I don't know if I want to say, spiritual or otherworldly, but, like, truly organic, Occurring.
- [21:06]
A
Yeah. I think the spirit is helping. If you're helping other people, right, you're helping them laugh, why wouldn't the spirit help you? I think you're right. In terms of the relief that it gives people, it's very important. I, in the book, also talk a lot about Jesus as having a sense of humor, which we tend to miss out on because we're not first century Judeans or Galileans. And there's lots of stories. If you look at them in the Greek or if you translate them back into Aramaic, I'm not an Aramaic scholar, they're actually funny.
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B
Could you tell us about that?
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A
Yeah. One of my favorite ones is. So he says to the Pharisees, you strain out a gnat and you swallow a camel. And we think, oh, that's kind of a funny image. But in Aramaic, the words for camel and gnat are galma and gome amla. So he's making a pun. It's a pun. And, you know, scholars say that, you know, people would have remembered that and said, oh, that's pretty funny, you know, and some of the stuff that we just don't get. Some of his parables were, according to New Testament scholars, funny.
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C
Right. And of course, that's so interesting.
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A
Yeah. And of course, he, you know, I think the funniest guy in the among the apostles, when Nathaniel meets Jesus and he finds out he's from Nazareth, he says, can anything good come from Nazareth? That's not good. That's a diss on Nazareth. And Jesus says, now there's a guy without guile. There's a guy I like. And so there's humor there. So one of the things that that book tried to do was to remind people that, you know, joy is the. I mean, it's the end point of the Christian life. Right. As Teilhard said, joy is the most infallible sign of the presence of God. But that the saints and Jesus had a sense of humor, and it's natural, it's human. I read a really interesting argument that said that if we think of Jesus as fully human, which we do, to be fully human means to have a sense of humor. Like, what kind of person doesn't have a sense of humor? So we have to pop a Jesus who laughed, even though, you know, he's always portrayed as very dour.
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B
And joy is infectious. And so if Jesus is attracting and converting and winning over all these hearts, then of course there should be an element of joy and humor in that, too.
- [23:06]
A
Yeah. And his first miracle is to make more booze at a party.
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C
Right?
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B
That's a good one.
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A
You know, and you figure, you know, people wouldn't follow someone who is like a cold fish. Right. I Mean. And he also, when he's doing his preaching and telling the parables, he has to grab people. He has to be, you know, a lot of people say he was almost like Stan. That doesn't mean everything he said was funny. But he had to get people, he had to grab them. And these are busy people and these are agrarian people who would say, you're boring, I'm leaving. So he has to tell funny stories and be pithy and be there. And so that I think shows he must have had this magnetism and also this wit. Right. And even the way he deals with the Pharisees and the scribes, it's a little bit of, kind of puncturing them a bit.
- [23:47]
B
I've heard this quote that's like, what is wit? Telling someone to go to hell, but making sure that they think going to enjoy the journey or something like that.
- [23:56]
A
You know, so Jesus does that a couple times.
- [24:00]
C
I also like when you talk about that. Could anything good come from Nazareth? Right. I love about that that there's an implied intimacy there where indirectly he's saying, you'll understand that I'm joking. But I'm also communicating that I know about that place. Because among comedians, like picking on each other, among men, picking on each other is our way of saying, I love you.
- [24:28]
A
That's interesting.
- [24:29]
C
It's kind of like, oh my gosh, you look a hundred years old. And it's like, obviously it's the hyperbole, but there's also, it's like, I know you well enough where I can make fun of you and you'll know that I'm doing it as a sign of.
- [24:44]
A
You know, I never thought of that, that it's kind of a playful move on his part, on Nathaniel's part. The other one I was just thinking of, my New Testament professor, Dan Harrington said that. But when Jesus says to Peter, you're the rock on which I'll build my church, you know, he's giving him the name Peter Kephas Rock. My New Testament professor thought that that meant kind of hard headed, like he's talking about his personality. So Rocky, as my professor would say, that he gives to Peter is kind of like a joke, you know. And you know, James and John, the two people who complain and say, let's call down thunder, he calls them sons of thunder, you know. And interestingly in one of the Gospels, it's the mother that says, can you make sure that my sons have a place in heaven next to you? James and John? And so he calls them sons of thunder. And One of my professors said that maybe he's talking about the mother, like, oh, here come the sons of thunder.
- [25:33]
C
Oh, that's interesting.
- [25:35]
A
So I think there's lots of kind of playful indications of Jesus own sense of humor. We're going to pause for a short break, but we'll be back in a minute. Looking for a simple way to deepen your own spiritual life? Give Us this Day is a superb resource that helps Catholics stay rooted in scripture and prayer wherever you are, no matter how busy you are. It features reliable and relatable spiritual reflections, essays on the lives of the saints, and, of course, prayers to accompany you throughout the day. I'm honored to be an editorial advisor, and I've been writing a monthly essay called Teach Us to Pray from the very Beginning. And here's a great offer. Right now, listeners of the Spiritual Life can get 10% off their new print subscription. Just visit giveusthisday.org spiritual life and join our community of Catholics praying together again. That's giveusthisday.org spiritual life foreign let me ask you something. What does it mean for you to live a spiritual life?
- [26:50]
C
Okay, the fraud meter is in full effect. You know, it goes through different phases. Like me today versus me that went with my wife and kids to Medjugorje. It's like, pretty different, you know. But that being said, I don't know. I mean, let's turn it on, you guys. How often do you do this stuff?
- [27:13]
B
No, I, I so appreciate, Jim, you just candidly acknowledging how much of a fraud you feel like, because, you know, I studied religion in undergrad and then grad school, and then when people ask me, you know, if I'm Catholic today and what that looks like, I also feel like a fraud and I'm not on stage or, you know, most of the time. So I just, I wonder, Jim, like, how common is this refrain of like, I'm a fraud or I'm not doing it right? Like, how often does this come up.
- [27:42]
A
In spiritual direction with everyone, with every single person? Yeah, because everyone feels like they fall short. They tend to look at another person's what seems like their spiritual life like, oh, they look so holy. They're praying all the time and they know their own sins where they don't know the other person's sinfulness or failing. So I think it's everybody. I mean, I feel like that, you know, sometimes it's a doorway to humility, though, I think, because if you, you know, if you ever say, well, look at me, look, I mean, this is the kind of person that Jesus rails against, the person who says, oh, I'm so holy, and unlike that other person. So I think it's actually the feeling of. Of being a fraud or being an imposter almost in the spiritual life, I think is a good thing because it keeps you from spiritual pride. You know, look how holy I am.
- [28:26]
B
So what do we do with that? You know, how do you advise people who are struggling with a sense of being a fraud? What's kind of like the spiritual antidote?
- [28:35]
A
Well, the Jesuits have a great expression called we are loved sinners. Okay. So all of us are sinful, and all three of us are here and we're sinful. Everybody's listening. We're all sinful in some way. We're sinners, just like everybody. God loves us nonetheless. Right? And so it's that balance. You don't want to be too much on the side of, I'm such a sinner, because then it leads you into despair. I'm a terrible person. Right. One spiritual director told me once that guilt is, I did a bad thing. Shame is, I am a bad person.
- [29:03]
B
Yeah, Right.
- [29:04]
A
And so you don't want to be ashamed of who you are. God doesn't love me. So by the same token, you can't be all about, oh, you know, I'm perfect, and I don't really sin very much. That's. That's kind of delusional. So I think it helps you to stay in that tension between being loved and being a sinner, which is. It's just human. That said, you know, we were talking about Peter earlier. I mean, one of the things, I think that makes Peter the person that Jesus chose to lead his church is because he was very conscious of his sinfulness and his need for God. That's the other thing. You need God. And I know that I def. I'm still sinful. I definitely need God. I was so stressed out this morning about other different things, and I snapped at a number of people in the office, and I have to say, look, I'm not perfect. I need God.
- [29:48]
C
It is interesting because you see it in our society and in our culture, the impracticality of a purity test. Right? Whether it be about faith or whether you're enough of a good father or you're enough of this or that. It's like, it never works out, you know? And I'm sure we'll go to church on Easter. And, like, I think in the past, I would walk in and I'm like, I don't even know what I'M doing here. And now I'll be like, no, that's fine. And so there are those moments in church where it's. Even as a parent, you're standing there with your kids, there's no screens. Maybe the priest is not killing it, but there's a moment where you're there with your kid, and that is like, that's amazing. Like, as a parent that's trying to navigate this, it's like, even if you look at your teenager and you're like, why are they wearing makeup? You know what I mean?
- [30:49]
A
Now when you say it's. What do you mean? What's amazing about that? I'm curious. Not being a parent.
- [30:53]
C
I think that in this age of information constantly being thrown to you, it's almost the stillness of church that is so impractical in our busy lives. But you're sitting next to your child, and it's not even a discussion you're having with your kid. It's not like, okay, we're at dinner tomorrow, you gotta pick up your sports uniform is just sitting there. And even if you're not emotionally connecting on what the priest is saying, you're having that silence of just being there. I think there's something very spiritual about that.
- [31:33]
A
Yeah. And, you know, you brought up your family, your wife. We talked about this before when she was diagnosed with a brain tumor. She's talked a lot about how her faith helped her persevere. Very movingly. But I'd like to hear from you, what was that experience like for you?
- [31:48]
C
It was a blast. It was a great time. No, it was. I mean, it was pretty earth shattering. You know, it was on a lot of different levels, and it's provided great comedy, but there's this expectation of, all right, so she has a brain tumor the size of X amount. It was size of a pear. And, you know, you're reading into how doctors are talking to you and you're being kind of brave to this, but, like, the. The odds of us landing in this situation, we are today, which is she's fully recovered and fine and all this, you know, we're very slim. So that whole experience was very much of a trial because it wasn't just losing her. It was about me kind of, you know, being in charge of five children. And selfishly, I'm like, all right, now I. I guess my career is over. Do I mean. Which I say as a joke. But, like, there was part of me that's like this chapter of my life, because I obviously am not going to abdicate my Responsibility. But it was also kind of this beautiful gift because it gave me an opportunity to show up for my wife. And as imperfect as I did it, you know, so whenever I meet someone that's dealing with someone who's got a partner that's dealing with illness, I always look at the partner because, like, there is, you know, so many jobs that you don't consider that a caretaker has to deal with. They have to be the press secretary, they have to be the personal assistant. They have to also emotionally attempt to get their needs met where it is way down the pecking order. So I guess in a lot of ways it was this incredible gift because I did, in this trying, difficult time, get an opportunity to do what I should have done. You know, I would not that I imagine, you know, you hear stories about, like, you know, someone's spouse gets sick and then they. They just leave. But I don't know, it was difficult.
- [34:11]
A
Where, where was your. I'm really curious, where was your faith in all this? And what, what did it do to your faith and did it change your understanding of God? And what, what was, what was going on in your spiritual life around that time?
- [34:22]
C
Well, spiritually, I would say that it was something that you fell back on. There was that scaffolding that you've built through life. Right. But spiritually, it was one of those things where, again, I was attempting to kind of navigate how I can support my young children, you know, with a lot of assistance from my wife's family, I should point out. So we would do the rosary for Mom. Like, I remember it was the night before Jeanne had her big brain 18 hour surgery. And I was like, all right, so we're all gonna pray here, right? And so my son, who was, I don't know how old he was, maybe five or four. It's all a blur at this point. We're sitting there doing, you know, the rosary, which has a repetition and a cadence. And halfway through, you know, my one son goes, how do you snap? Like, how do you snap? Like, do you snap your think there's this precious moment where he's praying for his mom, but he's a little boy, he doesn't know what's going on. And it was one of those things where it's kind of a running joke with me and my kids. Like, how do you snap? Because it was perfectly innocent, and his older siblings knew what was occurring. So, like, even the humor of that moment in this intended mode of spirituality was pretty amazing.
- [35:54]
A
Well, in this kind of intense time for you. Yes. What about your sort of image of God. I mean, sort of interiorly, were you angry at God? Were you relying on God? Were you praying to Jesus? What's going on inside of your.
- [36:07]
C
Yeah, I mean, I was definitely praying a lot. But it wasn't kind of that panic negotiation. It was much more of like, asking for, like, what would be the next right step.
- [36:24]
A
I see.
- [36:25]
C
Which I probably should do every day anyway.
- [36:27]
A
Sure, right.
- [36:28]
C
You know what I mean? Because when you deal with someone who's dealing with illness and that caretaker, you really do become a press secretary. And you're kind of navigating different personalities. So, like, during the pandemic, my wife, we kind of of were on lockdown longer than other people because she had been. Maybe you remember from the pandemic, like, once people are on a ventilator once, they really can't go on it again because of some of the weakness and stuff like that. But she had gotten pneumonia afterwards, and so she was on this ventilator. So getting her off the ventilator, there was definitely this thing of like, we gotta keep her off the ventilator, because some of it is just how the body reacts and stuff like that. Some of it was like, there was not a lot of communication. It's like if she was conscious, she might be writing something, and then it's trying and interpret what she's writing, and then she's annoyed because I'm dumb. Yeah, so it was very. I mean, it's kind of a blur.
- [37:33]
B
You know, as you're describing everything that goes into caretaking, it reminds me of the corporal works of mercy, this concept in our Catholic faith of feeding the poor and taking care of the sick or visiting the sick, and this really tangible expression of love. Yeah, and I remember once, I think my aunt mentioned that, you know, she felt herself really consumed by motherhood, especially in the beginning, and didn't feel like she had so much time to pray or to have, like this elevated spiritual life. And the advice given to her, you know, I think by a priest then was like, but what you're doing every single day when you're doing it with love, is such a spiritual life.
- [38:20]
C
Yes. Yeah, that's right. I like that answer. That's my answer.
- [38:25]
B
Okay, so we're going to turn to the audience question at this portion of the show. This is something we've been hearing a lot about lately. And so I'm going to give have two questions that are essentially the same question. The first is from Dolores, and she says, how do we find general optimism and peace during these dark times. And then Mary has a very similar version of this question, which is, how do we stay hopeful when everything is so dark right now?
- [38:55]
C
Wow.
- [38:55]
A
Yeah, Tough ones.
- [38:56]
C
Wow. I'll take a sip of my holy water.
- [38:59]
A
That's right. Well, I will go while you're drinking your holy water. Thank you, Dolores and Mary, for those questions. You know, our Catholic faith really is. Well, I'll just put it this way. I mean, my faith is really centered on the resurrection. And when we think about the disciples hiding behind closed doors on Good Friday and, you know, for part of Holy Saturday, they think nothing good could happen. Nothing. That's it. It's done. He's done. We're done. We're probably going to be arrested and killed. And yet, you know, the message of Easter is that hope is stronger than despair, love is stronger than hate, life is stronger than death, and nothing's impossible with God. So I think to really hold on to that, and not in a Pollyanna ish way, but to say, this is our faith. I mean, this is what Jesus came to show us. So to look at signs of God's presence in your life, if you're feeling really dark, to look for signs of God's presence and think about that scaffolding that Jim was talking about. I really do like that image. To see people who are showing God's love to you, but to also remember that you don't want to be like the disciples who think nothing can change. You know, Thomas Merton said that despair is a form of pride, which is kind of interesting, and it can make people feel bad. But what he means is. What I think he means is that. That despair says, I know that nothing can change.
- [40:25]
B
Right. Like, I'm in control.
- [40:26]
A
Yeah. I guess what I mean is I know that nothing can change, and I know that God can't change anything. So it's kind of arrogant. You're saying God can't change anything. And so it's kind of prideful. Like, who are you to say that God can't change anything? So I really. I really put a lot of my emphasis in my life on the resurrection. So it's. I would also say to Dolores and Mary, look, it's natural. I mean, it's. You know, if you're facing a wife who has cancer, you're facing, you know, economic downturn or whatever, it's natural. But it's important for us to remember that, you know, Christ is risen. That's kind of an important message in the church.
- [41:03]
C
Yeah, I think those are brilliant questions, because I Think most conscious adults are sitting there going, what if, what if, what if? I don't know. I just think of. I heard the question. I just thought of Mr. Rogers, you know, like, find the good people. Right. Because I. And I loved what you said about how despair is. There's nothing productive in that. Right. But that's not to say that it's weird because as a parent, you. You want to shake these kids. I mean, you want to hate your kids. No, but you want to shake these kids out of some of these very realistic and fair emotions and just say, yeah, yeah, it does. It is painful. Like, I mean, being a teenager is so hard. But, like, emotions are direction signs. So, like, if you're frustrated and angry, then you should do something. Not. Not. Not have the emotion drive you. But, like, if you're, like, not satisfied with. With how things are going, and I feel like we're kind of crippled as a country. We're kind of like, I don't know what to do. I don't even know if can I. Should I watch the news? Because that makes me depressed. And so I think that, you know, emotions are direction signs.
- [42:25]
B
Yeah. And not to pathologize emotions, especially the quote, unquote, negative ones.
- [42:30]
A
Yeah. It's natural. And, you know, during the pandemic, I often said to people that, I mean, indignation, spirituality, hope is coming from God. Despair is not. It's just a dead end. It just leads nowhere. And so to acknowledge it. Right. To say that these are real emotions, but to also say we are really called to be people of hope, like it or not, that's what we signed up for. That's right.
- [42:53]
C
Cool.
- [42:55]
B
Great. Well, do you want to close?
- [42:56]
A
Yeah, I don't know how to close.
- [42:57]
C
I'll close it out. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Spiritual Life with Father Jim. Jim Martin.
- [43:05]
A
Thanks very much. Thank you, Jim. Thanks for coming in. God bless you and your whole family.
- [43:11]
C
Appreciate it.
- [43:44]
A
If you enjoyed this conversation on the spiritual life, I encourage you to head over to America magazine.org where you'll find an article written by me and some of my spiritual takeaways from this podcast. Each conversation, the organization we have is so rich and complex that it's important to continue to reflect on these themes and how they apply to our daily lives. So head over to americamagazine.org or click in the link in the description to get started. See you there. Isn't he great?
- [44:16]
B
Yes. So much fun to be with. I'm really excited that we got to talk to him.
- [44:20]
A
Yeah. He's such a nice guy. And one of the things I like the best is even when he was being, you know, serious about his wife's illness and just his own feelings of being a fraud, there's a kind of light heartedness there. Right. It's just kind of his manner, very upbeat and sunny and friendly, which I loved. He's just, you know, there are really few people out there who are as capable as he is, public figures, of talking about their Catholicism. I mean, he's really good at it and he really knows his. He knows his stuff too. And beforehand we were talking about, you know, different things that are going on in the church and he really knows his stuff. I mean, he's really. He's very smart.
- [44:57]
B
Yeah, no, he is very smart. Why do you suppose that it is so difficult for people who are in the public eye to speak openly of their Catholic faith?
- [45:06]
A
You know, years and years ago, I did an interview with Helen Alvare. Helen Alvare is a pro life advocate and a lawyer, an attorney, and we did an interview with her. I did an interview with her on pro life activities and we were talking about being an attorney and a Catholic. And she said something that I found fascinating, which is one of the prejudices is that if you're a Catholic, I love this, you leave your brain at the door. Right. And so I think sometimes people think that in the entertainment world and in the public life that, oh, you're a Catholic, what does that mean? What do you. You have to do everything the Pope tells you and you're kind of like an idiot. So I think there's that sense that, you know, you must be a fundamentalist or you must be anti women or anti gay. So I think there's that prejudice out there, and I know that that's the case in the entertainment industry. So it's probably hard for him. But he does such a great job. And I think as he was saying, he's very self deprecating.
- [46:00]
B
Yes, yes. And he finds funny things about the Mass or the Catholic faith that really just allows other Catholics to laugh and sometimes to laugh at ourselves too.
- [46:12]
A
Yeah. And I thought, you know, when we asked him, do you ever feel guilty about, you know, telling jokes about the church? Cause I think I would. Right. If I told a church joke or a Jesus joke or a God joke, I mean, you know, sometimes I do. And his response was, well, I'm usually talking about myself. So that kind of in a sense insulates him from any of that. I thought that was very humble of him. He's a very down to earth guy. And that whole sort of stance that I'm a fraud, that's really quite humble and relatable.
- [46:43]
B
Right. So many people might feel like a fraud or an imposter at some point in their spiritual journey. Especially if I wondered if this was like an element of it too, where, you know, you are in the public eye, you are wearing this Catholic badge and you're wondering, I would be wondering, at least, you know, how other people perceive my practice of faith and whether it's legitimate enough.
- [47:09]
A
Right. And if you're that public, I mean, it's a little like that with priests. Like, you must go, you must be so holy, you know, Father, I'm nothing like you. And you think, well, I guess get annoyed and short with people and frustrated, you know, just like everybody else.
- [47:22]
B
But you also make really good jokes.
- [47:24]
A
I try, but he probably makes better jokes than I do. Jim Gaffing. But I do. Yeah, I do understand that there's a sense of, you know, higher expectation. Right. And you have to be kind of a flag bearer, you know, for the Catholic Church. So I think, I think of all the comedians that I think of, I think him and Stephen Colbert are the ones that are most sort of firmly identified as not just Catholic, but kind of good Catholics. Right. That other Catholics know that they are Catholic. Right. And there's a little bit of a burden in that, I think. And to be funny at the same time, that's quite an art.
- [47:58]
B
Well, one of the touch points of this conversation was the relationship between faith and humor and joy. And I mentioned your book, Jim, Between Heaven and why Joy, Humor and Laughter Are at the Heart of the Spiritual life. What inspired you to write this book?
- [48:17]
A
Yeah, well, the book came from writing my book, My Life with the Saints. And I kept running across all these stories about saints who are funny, which, frankly, before I started writing the book, I didn't really know about. And there are so many stories about funny saints. You know the famous joke of St John XXIII where he was asked, I'm sure, you know, how many people work in the Vatican. Do you know this one?
- [48:37]
B
I don't know this one.
- [48:38]
A
Yeah. And he said about half of them. So I actually was on Vatican radio years ago talking about this book, and I shared on Vatican Radio one of his other jokes, which is someone said to him, holy Father, I understand people work in the morning and the Vatican is closed in the afternoon because they have their, you know, kind of their rest. He said, no, people don't work in the Morning, and the Vatican is closed in the afternoon. And I said this on Vatican Radio. And there was this big pause and I realized what I had done. And they said. I said, oh, of course. Not now. Not now in the Vatican.
- [49:13]
B
Yeah, this is decades ago.
- [49:15]
A
Exactly. But, you know, to know that the saints had a sense of humor because they were human and that, you know, St. Philip Neri was known specifically for his sense of humor and would, you know, there are lots of funny stories about him and even him in relationship with St. Ignatius. They were contemporaries. And I think that that reminds us that we can be joyful and funny and humorous people. Saint Teresa of Avila said, lord, deliver me from somber, sour saints. Right. So I think it's just about being human. There wasn't a lot written about it, which was a surprise. You can, you know, if you go into a Catholic bookstore or they even still exist, or online and look up Catholicism and suffering, how many books are you gonna get? Like, millions and millions. You look up Catholicism and joy or humor or laughter. So I thought, you know, time to write a book.
- [50:05]
B
And there are so many great stories and anecdotes and insights in this book, Jim. So I would encourage everyone to check out Jim's book Between Heaven and why Joy, Humor and laughter are at the heart of the Spiritual life.
- [50:20]
A
Thanks, that's very kind.
- [50:21]
B
Yeah.
- [50:27]
A
Thank you again to Jim Gaffigan and thanks to all of you who are listening. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is a production of America Media. It's produced by Maggie Van Dorn and our executive producer, Sebastian Gomes. We recorded in the William J. Lord studio in New York City with the production assistance of Kevin Christopher Robles. Our audio engineer is Noah Levinson. Adam Buckmuller edited the video of this episode, which will be made available on America Media's YouTube channel. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media. Amesmartinsj. Also, please help us to grow the show by leaving a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. If you love the spiritual life, then we have even more to offer you on America magazine's website. Keep informed and inspired about our Catholic faith. Become a subscriber today@americamagazine.org subscribe or click the link in the show notes and on our website, you can find an article by yours truly to accompany this podcast. Thanks and God bless you.