Father Jim Martin (3:19)

Absolutely. Language is really important. And also sometimes we are, in a sense, saddled with or burdened with sometimes images of God that don't work for us. Right. That we get from wherever. Right. And, you know, I think of God the Father, and this is what Jesus called God. Jesus calls God Abba, which is a little bit more like dad, not exactly Daddy, but it's pretty familiar. And so I think that's really meaningful for me. But if someone had a father who they didn't like or who was even abusive, that might be a difficult image. And so she offers lots of images, often from the 12 steps program. She talks about that a little bit in one of her books. She talks about, you know, I like to call God Howard. Right. Or Phil from. From Philippians. So creator of the universe. So you're right. It's important to think about not only images of God, but language for God. And, you know, who better to help us understand that than a writer, you know, and a writer of her caliber.

Maggie Van Doren (4:15)

Absolutely.

Father Jim Martin (4:16)

Yeah. We are so lucky to have Anne Lamott on the spiritual life today.

Maggie Van Doren (4:20)

We are now our audience question, which both Father Jim and Annie will answer, comes from Agnes. And Agnes asks, how do you handle distractions during prayer? So stick around because Father Jim and Annie will answer that together. And of course, if you have a question for Father Jim, you can write to us at the spiritual life@americanmedia.org well, great.

Father Jim Martin (4:46)

Thanks so much, Maggie. And now onto our wonderful conversation with Annie Lamott. So, Annie Lamott, welcome to the spiritual life.

Annie Lamott (5:01)

Thank you, Jim.

Father Jim Martin (5:02)

I want to get this out of the way. I am a big fan, so I'm really happy that you're here. And I know we have a lot of fans in our listening and viewing audience, so thanks so much. I'm going to jump in. You're known primarily, I think, at least in my world, as a spiritual writer. How did that all start? How did you start writing about specifically spirituality?

Annie Lamott (5:25)

Well, I think I would say that I'm known for my nonfictions, some of which much of it is spiritual, but I sort of came out of the closet as a Christian with My last. My novel. My first sober novel, actually, that was called All New People. I got sober in 86, and I think all new people came out three years later. I'd been going to church for four years, and I'd been sober for three. So I had a kind of gap year at the little church I discovered or that God dragged me kicking and screaming to. And I just was obsessed, like a baby Christian would be, with what it meant and why it mattered and how I could parlay it into a sweeter and less crazy life. And so I had the mother of the main character go to the same funny little church, and then I was off and rolling. Then the next book I wrote after that was a journal of my son's first year. It was called Operating Instructions. I was single. I didn't have any money in the world, and I just needed so much help. And I just started including where I got that spiritual help in these diary entries about what it was like to be a single mother of a newborn and a colicky baby.

Father Jim Martin (6:51)

What do you tell people who are moving from kind of a secular worldview to a spiritual worldview? You talked about having an obsession with God or with spirituality or with the religion. How do you help people make that jump? Because I think that's hard for a lot of people.

Annie Lamott (7:07)

Well, it really is. I notice since with people that are newly sober who might want to work the 12 step programs they run just screaming for their cute little lives from the God part. And the third step is made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God. And. And Bill Wilson's great moment of genius was, as I understand, God. And so it meant it could be Mount Tamalpais, which a lot of the people in my area turn to because the coastal Miwok worshiped her, the Sleeping Lady. And there's a lot of acronyms that work for people that are agnostic, Good, Orderly Direction, group of drunks, grace over drama. And another name for God is not Me. You know, I always ask my Sunday school kids, what's the difference between God and me? Do you know the answer, Jim? God never thinks he's me.

Father Jim Martin (8:08)

I just read that. I was rereading Help. Thanks. Wow. I think that's in there. I think that's fantastic.

Annie Lamott (8:14)

So it's like anything that's not my own rattled, egotistical and anxious mind. It's anything bigger that we can hook into and step away from our own drama and trauma and great ideas for everybody else's lives. So with people that Are longing for some sort of connection or union with goodness. I mean, goodness is a great synonym for God. Life with a capital L is a great synonym for God. I usually ask them just to start noticing all the ways in which they're being cared for. Sometimes I make them write this down to notice all the ways that they're being cared for. The people and nature surrounding them in the sky and the books and poems that are coming into their hands through email or text or people foisting something on them that can be really enlightening to notice that you don't believe in anything yet or you're not talking to anything yet. And still all around you is what you and I would call grace. Like sort of unmerited and surprising hell water wings when we're going down or spiritual WD40. That gets into the really tight. You know, that little red straw that you attach to the aerosol that gets into those really tight clenched places. So also the way that prayer begins is that you say, maybe with your eyes closed, you say, hello, Anyone there? Maybe you don't hear anything, but maybe it's a peaceful moment of, you know, cast ye bread upon the waters. And maybe it's the casting and the trusting, you know, just trusting that maybe something hears you, maybe something heard you say hello and drew a little closer.

Father Jim Martin (10:09)

So you think that's what enables people to make that leap, in a sense?

Annie Lamott (10:12)

Well, what do you think?

Father Jim Martin (10:14)

That's a good question. I always wonder what enables some people to make that jump. Right. From all the things you're saying, which I think are completely true and very wise to actually saying that there is someone or something or some force out there. I mean, I think it's grace, but I also think it's people kind of taking a risk. I think in one of your books, I think it's helped. Thanks. Well, you talk about a friend who acted as if there were a higher power and he found himself. Yeah. And you experience him as more. Just happier and more compassionate. So I think sometimes people just have to kind of take a chance. But I always wonder, you know, why do some people get the grace to say yes to that? And why do some people seem not to? I don't know.

Annie Lamott (10:59)

Well, I don't know the answer to that. I will go to my grave surprised that I became a religious person. I was raised by atheists, intellectuals, but I had religious friends. My first best friend was Catholic, and she used. I mean no offense to your people, but she used to whisper to me in the dark when I was sleeping. Over that, because I wasn't Catholic, I was going to rot in hell, and that hell was going to be spinning through outer space forever. So I was a little tense about that. And I actually learned the Hail Mary in response to that, in case she was right. And then my other best friend, and still some. I mean, this is from 66, 67 years ago. Shelley Adams. Her mother was a Christian Science healer. And I've written a lot about her in my books. And so I grew up at their house. And she would read Scripture to her three kids and me. She'd read Mary Baker Eddy, who's the author of All New Thought, you know, Eckhart Tolle or Marianne Williamson, anyone that you might think of as New Thought. And so I got that stuff, but I didn't quite believe. And I'll tell you, my moment of it was like a decision. It was. Yeah, it was acting as if. And it was also a decision. And I was 17 years old, as I was in my first year of college back East. I was taking a philosophy class on Kierkegaard and the Fear and Trembling. And of course, the whole book is about studying the passage where Abraham is told to take Isaac up to the mountain and sacrifice him. And, I mean, this can't be right. But Abraham understands that without doing what God seems to be nudging him to do, the world is so ugly and grave and brutal anyway, as we're experiencing now, that he's so completely doomed, just going by his own ideas and his own plans. And so he just does what we do. He went one step, you know, left foot, right foot, left foot. And of course, when he gets there, there's the lambs in the thicket that the angels provide for the sacrifice. I'm telling it all wrong, I'm sure. But at any rate, God provides the Lamb. And I don't know how to explain this, Jim. It is one of those moments outside of time and space where I got. I groked that if I didn't take that leap of faith that Abraham takes in walking up to the mountain with his precious little boy, I was a goner, because the world is. You know, I heard somebody, a writer, said, we are Easter people living in a Good Friday world, and I am so, so, so sensitive. And I felt that without it, without taking that leap of faith, I wasn't going to make it. So I decided right there to pursue faith. Now, I didn't want to be a Christian because the public Christians tend to be, say, very fundamentalist and right wing and seem to hate Everybody that I take, you know, marched on the streets for. And all of my friends are kind of left wing activist type, which I am also. But I spent a lot of my twenties trying every other religion but Christianity. And I almost felt like Gandhi felt, you know, he said, I love Christ. It's just the Christians I have a lot of problems with. And then finally having tried everything one day, and I've written about this, I'm not saying anything you don't know, but I had the direct experience of Jesus hunkering down in the. I was drunk and in the worst shame I had ever remembered. And I was living on a houseboat that was 150 square feet. And I just had a direct experience that he was hunkered down in the corner like my dad used to when I was having nightmares when I was a little one. And I turned over on my side and looked away and I said, I'd rather die because the Christian presence in America is so destructive. And this might just sound crazy to your listeners because, I don't know, it would to me too. I was on a houseboat, so I had to walk down a dock to get to this funny little mostly black church that I had discovered next door to the flea market where I always went on Sunday mornings when I was hungover, because you probably don't drink, but when you're hungover you want really greasy food and a lot of coffee. And I heard the music coming out, you know, and the music was those old gospels from the Deep south and the songs of the civil rights movement, you know, We Shall Overcome and Swing Low, Sweet Chariot and I Shall Not Be Moved. And I had grown up on that music with my parents who were big civil rights people with Pete Seeger and the Weavers and Joan Baez. So I've written that sometimes grace is just having run out of any more good ideas. And I had run out of any more good ideas. I was so sick. I weighed like 10 pounds. I was insane. And so I walked over the church and I just started sitting there for the hymns, for the singing, and because they loved me and they didn't try to get me to sign on for anything. They could just see that I was badly hurt on my inside and that I was suffering and I was scared. And they got me water. They never tried to get me to Bible study. They never tried to get me to sign up for anything or try to figure out who shot the Holy Ghost. They just saw that I was suffering and they got me water. And so I had this experience with Jesus. But I kind of tried to get rid of it. And one day when I was walking home from church on the wooden dock, I felt him. I felt him at my feet. Kind of like you would feel find a stray cat. Now I used to be very smart when I was younger and I'm just not stupid. I know that you feed the stray cat. It's not a stray cat anymore. You probably have a new cat, right? Kept nudging this, just metaphorically nudging it. I don't want this. I don't want this. And in my beautiful moment of conversion, I stopped on the dock and I hung my head. I said, pretty much, okay, fine, you can come in. And he came in and I got him milk. And then we've been together ever since I was 31, I'm 7, I'll be 72 in a month.

Father Jim Martin (17:19)

Thank you for sharing that story. I know a lot of people are going to wonder when you say you have a direct experience of Jesus hunkered down with you on that houseboat, what was that like exactly? Was it a presence, a vision, a feeling? Can you describe that a bit more?

Annie Lamott (17:35)

It felt like an actual person. Was there a brown skinned, very Jewish guy just hunkered down in the corner without a position on me, without anything. I mean, I haven't had that before. I've had a couple of very dramatic spiritual moments of union. But that was. I felt him there, you know, I can feel him like I would say probably most Christians can if I need to. If I'm driving, I can feel him in the passenger seat. I could feel him here in my little office. I can feel him as soon as I remember that I can because he lives in my heart and because he surrounds me and. Cause the Holy Spirit surrounds me and indwells me in it. But mostly I'm thinking about, you know, what I'm going to have for lunch and that I just had a dentist appointment and that I feel kind of sorry for myself and people should be here babying me. And then I remembered the Jesus thing and I just, I'm always saying, oh, hi, you know, it's not a really interesting theological description, but that one time I felt his physical body there.

Father Jim Martin (18:44)

Yeah, I had an experience like that not too long ago. Not as dramatic. I was on my eight day retreat up at Eastern Point Retreat House and my Retreat Director, Joe McHugh said, Now I want you to go out on this path and imagine Jesus next to you and speaking with you. And I said to him, which is my own confession, I Said, yeah, I can't do that. I don't do that. I can sit in the chapel and I can imagine Jesus and I can picture myself in the, you know, the gospel scenes, but I can't do that while I'm walking. I get too distracted. And he said what every good retreat director would say, you know, why don't you try it? So I went out and I sort of tried it for about five seconds. I thought, this is useless. I'm distracted. I'm looking at the trees, the cars, all this kind of stuff. And then I went back in the next prayer period. I thought, you know, I'm really going to imagine this. Like, I'm really going to try to physically. And sure enough, I was like, okay, there you are. I didn't see anything. But as you said, you can kind of feel that presence. And it's. For me, it's kind of rare that it happens. But what a grace to have that happen. Now, is that who you pray to? Are you praying to Jesus mainly instead of God, or what's your prayer practice?

Annie Lamott (19:57)

I'm praying mostly to Jesus. I struggle as a feminist with the Father part. At my church, when we say the Lord's Prayer, we say Father, Mother, God. I'm kind of calling God they right now. But I wanted to add one thing. One of your papal people, a beautiful, beautiful diocesan priest, maybe you knew him, named Terry Ritchie in la, who passed a few years ago. He's told me something 30 years ago, I've never forgotten. He said, the point is not to try harder, it's to resist less, you know. And so when somebody tells me I can have an energetic experience of union with Jesus, everything in me goes. I'm not really that kind of, you know, I'm kind of. Not that I'm like an intellectual. And then if I try it, I can feel it like I felt the other day in church in silence, feeling very troubled. I felt, because I asked them to the Holy Spirit and Jesus drew very near to me as if they were two congregants, like, just right close up to me. And they weren't like men. I mean, I feel like they were men. Although I don't think of the Holy Spirit as a man, but it was just kind. A little bit, to be specific, like two male congregants had moved in very near to me. And that's when I pray with people. We pray that God move in really close so that, you know, it's that terrible sheet metal feeling of isolation that does us in. And when we can Like I wished God or Jesus had a magic wand and would tap me on the head and I wouldn't worry or have anxiety or bad self esteem. But the way it works is that God often through a beloved or trusted person, moves in closer to me. And that is I experience the direct love of God. I've always also written that dogs and cats are the closest we come this side of eternity to experiencing the direct love of God because they just don't have a position on me. They just love me, you know, I don't get it. That's the mystery of grace. I don't get get it. Maybe you do.

Father Jim Martin (22:06)

I don't get it. I think it's all unwarranted. And the times in my life where I feel the, the most miserable or the most wretched or the most sort of struck down is usually when God breaks in. I had a director tell me once, as you were saying, about the resistance, that it's not as if we, when we are at our low ebb, you know, God kind of waits for that and rewards us. It's that our defenses are down.

Annie Lamott (22:29)

Yeah.

Father Jim Martin (22:29)

And God can break in more. So God's kind of always, you know, God's always there, but we have these kind of defenses up. Yeah. I'm curious, what do you say to someone who's kind of listening and feeling a little jealous and saying, oh my gosh, I've never had an experience like that? Do you ever get people that ask you that question and maybe feel a little jealous or.

Annie Lamott (22:51)

Well, people that have gotten against all odds sober have had some kind of direct experience with something outside of their own pinball machine mind. It could be the group of drunks. The Buddhists that are getting sober often can think of good, orderly direction. I've said this in every book, but there was this priest, Father Dowling, who helped Bill Wilson get AA off the ground in 1935. He was not an alcoholic. And he said to Bill, sometimes I think that heaven is just a new pair of glasses. And so with people that are very resistant to any kind of higher power, a power greater than their own troubled, angry, controlling minds, I asked them to try to put on a new pair of glasses. And as we started off saying, I asked them to look around for all the ways they're being cared for. I asked them to get outside and breathe the fresh air. And look what's happening. We're starting to get wildflowers here. Not very many, but in that cold, bleak, very hard earth, wildflowers are breaking through. And a little Bit of grass. And if you come back in a month, there'll be daffodils, and it will still be freezing cold. And so I say, go and look around. That's with my Sunday school kids. We call that a faith walk, you know, and we walk around and we point out, oh, my God, look at that. That can't be. Look at the red of that Albutolon. That is a color not found on this side of things, you know, or we play. We play some music like you play any piece by Mozart and. Or Bach. And you understand that they had one foot here and one foot someplace that's not accessible to most of us most of the time. And so you listen to that and you go, that's not God. That was a man. You go, that's fine. It's ethereal, though. It's one foot in and one foot out. Could you try that? I wake up a lot of the time. Oh, this is like I woke up Sunday when I was describing to you that I felt very troubled. And I felt Jesus and the Holy Spirit kind of coming really close. I just wake up in a. What we used to call in the 50s, a state. And they'd say, oh, she's in a state. He's in a Guess, he's. I guess Jim's in a state. And I wake up in a state because I want the world to be kinder and more fair than it is. And I'm upset about my mouth right now because I've had all this dental expense and paint, blah, blah, blah. And I wake up in a state. I wake up, I say my prayers, I put my glasses on, and I might still be in a state. But I always remember I can start my new 24 hours the minute I decide to. I may have been up for 15 minutes, and I think about that new pair of glasses. I'm gonna think about all the ways in which I'm being loved and supported and all the ways outside my window I can see like a living Gerard Manley Hopkins poem, you know, the Glory of God like shook foil. And I can find God often in poetry. But you, as an atheist or an agnostic, might not call it God, but they would admit that it was pretty trippy. And pretty trippy is a first start. I thought of another acronym for God. I give to people that are struggling with the word, you know, Gus, the Great Universal Spirit. And I'll think, I'll ask them, start to be aware of this great universal spirit. Go to a protest march, and you'll be happier than you've been in weeks. And you'll feel that spirit of love and goodness. And you'll laugh, you know. Cause the signs will be so hilarious. And I've always said that laughter is carbonated holiness. Or go just look around for the great universal spirit that things got better for a family. You know how it's a myth. They just did. Against all odds, the plates of the earth shifted and they're back on their feet. So that's probably my favorite acronym for God right now. But, you know, it's partly like surrendering and like I did on the dock on the docks that day. And it's a decision. It's taking the position that I know so. So, so little. I am so limited that maybe things are more interesting and layered and complex that I've given them credit for. And that's an opening. It's like a portal, you know, I just want to share one more, kind of. Maybe you'll think it's dumb, but it's a thing exercise I do with my Sunday school kids who are all ages tiny but failing church. There might be four kids there, but one might be four and. And one might be 11, and we might have a baby, and one might be a teenager. And so we do this game called Loved and Chosen. And I'll say, is anyone here wearing mostly black with a white plastic inset? And you know how little kids are. They're like. And they raise their hand and they wave it, and I go, yeah, Jim, you know what? You are loved and chosen as is. And I'll say, do you know God's name for you? It's beloved. Why don't you come up here and I'll give you a hug? But usually instead of, you know, most people aren't dressed clerically, so I'll say, is anyone here wearing Pokemon shoes? And they always go. And I call on them and I say, you know what, honey? You know what, Luke? You are loved and chosen as is. Do you know God's name for you, beloved? Well, that. That is very hard for me to get. That's God's name for me. I'm a mess. I screw up right and left. I can be so petty and materialistic and ambitious and uncaring, which is the great sin. And God goes, I know you are loved and chosen beyond words. To express that, we're going to pause.

Father Jim Martin (28:46)

For a short break, but we will be right back.

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Father Jim Martin (29:48)

Let me go back to Jesus a bit. You talked about Jesus in that experience on the houseboat and like a cat sitting next to you. What place did the Gospels play in your lives? You know, the Jesus of the Gospels and the gospel stories. And where does that fit into your spiritual life?

Annie Lamott (30:05)

Well, I mean, I read a little bit every day and I meditate on it. And I, you know, of course I have favorite passages that I turn to the Most, like Philippians 4, 4 through 7. Rejoice, I say, no matter what. It's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, you know, that's not Jesus's. I guess that's Paul's words, right in his letter to the Philippians where he says, rejoice, But I think he got it from Jesus. And Jesus said, no matter what, all of this is working to the good. All of this will turn into blessing. And it may not right now. And that's why you just act as if. And you take care of the other lambs, you know, you take care of Jesus sheep, and you will be taken care of. And I say it's a deal. So, you know, I always laugh with Tom Weston, who I think you're friends with, because we see Jesus as the Jewish mother. When the disciples are at their whiniest and most frightened, like, when's our turn? I hate this. Everybody's so mean. And Jesus says, you know, you all seem like very crazy right now. Why don't you go to the beach and someone will bring in some fish and eat. I think you might be hungry. It's, Jesus has a Jewish mother. And Jesus says, I'm going to go off and pray because he doesn't want all that on him all the time. And he goes and he comes back and everybody feels a little bit better. I mean, I love the Gospels and I was saved, literally, like any old Christian, by the Gospels. I love the last lines. Come, Lord Jesus, come. And when I don't know what to do, you know, it's like that bumper sticker that says, Jesus is coming. Look Busy. I'll think Jesus is coming. I'm gonna be heavily Jesus y today. And I do have days where I'm just heavily Jesus. Yeah. I definitely take a sack of food over to the food pantry in the county seat where there's the most poverty in our very wealthy county. And I just act like Jesus, you know?

Father Jim Martin (32:10)

Well, and I think being Jesus y is what Jesus asks us to do. One of my favorite quotes from Richard Rohr is that Jesus never said, worship me. He said, follow me. And, you know, I'm sure you heard, you know, what would Jesus do? And people make fun of that. You know, ww JD And I think, why are you making fun of that? That's what we're called to do. We are called to follow him. You know, it's funny, I do want to say, I think the disciples were often in a state, as you would say.

Annie Lamott (32:39)

Yes.

Father Jim Martin (32:39)

And Jesus had to kind of calm them down. Or when they're asking, who's going to be first in the kingdom of heaven. That's my favorite. You know, I know I always say to people, look, the disciples are having a hard time with Jesus in front of them. So it's not that hard to understand why we're having a hard time. You know, I'm curious. What are your daily spiritual practices? What would you say to that?

Annie Lamott (33:00)

Well, I do wake up and I say a few prayers, memorized prayers. I have a cross that's a beautiful, girly, lacy cross here. I don't know if you can see it. I also have a medallion that some sober grandmas gave me when I turned 60 quite a while ago. And it says, God's got it. And it's from a story. It's from my work with sober women. And there was a woman who had had a. In our small group of 10 or 11, she'd had an oral cancer. So she had part of her jawbone, part of her tongue removed. She had a speech impediment or difference, but she came through. She had surgery, radiation, and chemo. She came through it. About seven years later, it came back. And she announced this at a meeting. She was always grateful. She was always in gratitude. Which is like the attitude of gratitude is the. Like, people say, where do I even start? Where do I even make a gratitude list? That's where you start. But she was always grateful. And everybody started saying, oh, well, you know, I have a. My cousin's hairdresser had that same cancer. And they did, like, oxygen therapy and unborn baby kale. And they don't. And you know, she listened to everybody's and she just waved it away like cigarette smoke. And she said, you know what? God's got it. And so the other day, middle of last week, when I was feeling really, really troubled, that led into this troubled Sunday, I woke up and got my medallion out, and I touch it all day. My grandson lives here, my son lives here. Halftime. I've been married late in life, and I'm very politically active and all stuff. And I feel freaked out by it all, by my responsibilities and by how troubled it all is. And I just touch this all day and I think, you know what? God's got it. And so I use that as my marching orders. And then I sit in meditation for 15 minutes. My mantra is the Eastern, the Jesus prayer. Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner, which I first read about. And I'm positive you did, too. I betcha, honey. But it was in Salinger's ninth store. No, it was in Franny and Zoe, right? And Franny's having a nervous breakdown, and she's come to the glass house where her mother is there, and Zoe's downstairs. She's anorexic, she won't eat. All she's doing is saying the Jesus prayer over and over and over again. She can't connect with God. I don't know if you remember this, but then Zoe gets her on the phone upstairs and gets her on the extension, and you've got to eat. Mom has made chicken soup for you. I don't want to. He says, franny, it's consecrated by Mom's love. Drink the soup. And she does. But that is where I first heard the prayer. And then it just became something I love. So that's the meditation part of my day. And then I get outside every single day, and there's a walk I take with my girlfriend sometimes, Neil. And it ends in this grove. And we call it the praying place. And so it's about 45 minutes because we're old and our feet hurt and we all have bursitis and stuff. So it's about a 45 minute walk. And 25 minutes there, you're in the praying place, and we take hands and we all pray out loud. And then we walk back, you know, gossiping and talking about food and movies and who we hate and who we think could do better. And I would say that I get back in bed and I pray. I pray Thanksgiving and then I say the Jesus prayer again till I fall asleep. It's funny, it reminds me of Something when I first got sober. There are these Beautiful prayers in 12 step recovery. One of them is the third step prayer. And everybody memorizes it. That's the morning prayer. It says, I offer myself to thee to build with me and to do with me as thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self. Oh please, Lord, take away my difficulties that victory over them will bear witness to those I would help of thy power, thy will and thy way of life. May I do thy will always. But it's so profound because it says, take away my difficulties, not so that I can move closer and closer to perfection, which I've always followed and chased, thinking then I would be a person worthy of God's love and everybody's love and esteem. Take away my difficulties that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of thy power, thy love and thy way of life. So that was the third supper. Then there's another sort of goodnight gratitude prayer. And the old timer, old guy is probably the age I am now. But to me he was like, you know, Milton Berle, he said, you know what, Annie? A lot of us when we wake up, we say, whatever. And then when we go to sleep, we close our eyes and we say, oh, well.

Father Jim Martin (37:59)

That'S very realistic. You know, I'm so glad that you brought up the Jesus prayer because in one of your books, I think it's Help. Thanks. Wow. I just reread it recently. I think you call those rote prayers, the good china prayers that you take out. And I think they often get denigrated. Right. But it sounds like you have a mix between, you know, the sort of freeform prayer and those rote prayers that you go to. Right. That are kind of your go to prayers.

Annie Lamott (38:25)

Well, you know, I wrote a lot in Help. Thanks. Wow. That prayer is just talking to God. Prayer is just, you know, and then they say meditation is listening. But prayer means that I've been invited into a relationship with an energetic force who hears me and who cares who draws close. And so I really just say what's going on? And I say, I'm not okay right now. I'm in a hole that's too deep for me to find my way out of. Can you help me? Can you come sit with me in it? I do a practice. I mean, this is very common in recovery. We use something called a God box. And it could be any little box that someone's given you that you love or can actually be your wallet if you weren't at home. Or it could be your Glove box. And I write notes to God of stuff I'm very tangled up in. I might write a person's name. I might write the name Amy, and I fold it up. And while I'm folding it up, I'm picturing the person and I'm saying to God, I'm in the rabbit hole, and I'm gonna take my sticky fingers off the controls of the spaceship till I hear back from you.

Father Jim Martin (39:39)

Yeah, God's got it. I think God's got it. That's the message. Let me. I have so much I wanted to say. First of all, I think that image of just being honest with God is so important. I've often talked about one of my spiritual directors, Bill Barry, who wrote that book, God. And you'd. Who used to say, you know, relationship with God is like a relationship with a friend. Obviously not the same thing, but you have to be honest.

Annie Lamott (40:02)

Yeah.

Father Jim Martin (40:02)

I want to talk about your writing a little bit, and I really. There's so many books that I was looking over all the books you've written, I thought, oh, that's my favorite. No, that's my favorite. But I think that my favorite is Help. Thanks. Wow. And I have to tell you, a few days ago, a friend of mine told me you've probably heard this, that he has his child pray with help. Thanks. Wow. At the end of the day. So one help, one thanks, and one wow.

Annie Lamott (40:27)

Oh, no, I love that.

Father Jim Martin (40:28)

Yeah. Which is great. Why do you think that book resonated with so many people?

Annie Lamott (40:33)

Well, because it took something that maybe you've been raised to believe is complicated. And you need to know what you're doing. And it should be, you know, like, your best handwriting. And instead the book just says, like, if you say these three prayers, you ask God for help. I'm stuck. I'm scared. Help. Help me. It's you at your most humble. And humble is where union begins. And then thanks. Where you go, you know, when you're first sober. I didn't know how to do checkbooks and stuff. I didn't know how to do anything. And I felt like I was a walking prayer. I was either going, help me, help me, help me, help me, or thank you. Thank you, thank you. Because every time I ask for pray or put a prayer in or put a name or situation in the God box, it would be answered. I wouldn't. It was stunning. And I'd go, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And then I realized that the praise prayer was. Wow. Was oh, my God. And you can, if you Step outside. You can do the wow. Prayer right now. The second you turn this recording off. My old pastor Veronica said you could catch bees at the bottom of Mason jars with a drop of honey and no lid on the Mason jar because they don't look up. They just kind of walk along the bottom of the glass, bumping into walls kind of bitterly. And all they have to do is look up and they have freedom. And so I make part of the new pair of glasses as I'm always getting outside and looking up and looking away from my feet that hurt and looking away from the ground that is cold and hard right now. Those things are beginning to stir. So the wow. Prayer became just so important for me. It's just the praise. Pair of wow. I am blown away by the beauty of the world, by the beauty of creation.

Father Jim Martin (42:24)

You have a new book coming out in March called Good Writing. And I loved, loved, loved your book, Bird by Bird. Now, here's a big question as we wrap up.

Jesuit School of Theology Announcer (42:35)

Is there.

Father Jim Martin (42:36)

I know it's hard to answer this. Is there a secret to good writing?

Annie Lamott (42:39)

Well, the secret to good writing is bad writing. And as I wrote about in Bird by Bird, you just let yourself write really terrible first drafts. And I can promise you, I know 100 writers, great writers, many of whom you love and whose books dovetail with the books I've read. And every one of them writes terrible first drafts. You have a vague idea of what you want to write, or you have an assignment, maybe one or the other, and you get your butt into the chair. You know, you stop not writing, and you get your butt into the chair and you keep it there, and you have this one thing you think you might be able to write. Or you have, I would imagine, in your case, one thing that's due that somebody has told you you need to get done by tomorrow before lunch. And you start to write it. And it will come out almost sure. It'll come out really badly. It'll be too long. The prose will get a little purple. Your descriptions. One of the rules in the new book, good writing, is take out the boring stuff. You know, it means you go through and you take out the long descriptions and you. You tighten it, you take out a quarter of it, and then you have a good working draft.

Father Jim Martin (43:51)

That's great. Someone once said, yeah. If you're stuck, you know, immediately lower your standards.

Annie Lamott (43:57)

Oh, yeah.

Father Jim Martin (43:58)

But, you know, can I tell you a funny story about writing?

Annie Lamott (44:00)

Sure.

Father Jim Martin (44:00)

So I wrote a. A couple years ago called My Life with The Saints about 20 years ago, and my Editor at Loyola Press was a woman named Vanita Wright. She's a wonderful writer in and of herself. And I had a chapter in there about Therese of Lisieux. And the book was about how I, quote, unquote, met or encountered the saints. And I met Therese through a film by Alain Cavalier. In any event, the beginning of the chapter was about working in a movie theater as an usher. And I had three funny stories that led up to these. This, you know, then I go to see the Therese movie. Three funny stories about being an usher. I thought they were pretty funny. And Vinita sent back the manuscript, and she cut out two of the stories. Right. And I called her up and I said, why would you cut out these funny stories? People like to laugh. She said, one is enough. One is enough. One story is enough. And that you've sort of prepped the reader. And I said, no, I think they're really funny, and I think we need three of them. And she said, so you should always listen to editors. She said, if I, who am getting paid to read this think it's too much, what will someone who pays to read this think?

Annie Lamott (45:11)

Yeah. Yeah.

Father Jim Martin (45:12)

So it's, you know, get rid of the boring parts and also listen to your editors, too.

Annie Lamott (45:16)

Exactly. I think that's one of the rules, too. One of the rules is find an editor, whether it's a close friend, whether it's a professional. Find someone to look at it and to say to you, one is enough.

Father Jim Martin (45:28)

Yep. Well, we look forward to good writing. Now we turn to our audience question. This is great. You can answer it, and then I will answer it. And this is an audience question from Agnes. And Agnes writes very simply, how do you handle distractions during prayer?

Annie Lamott (45:44)

Oh, you know, I just am in distraction over during prayer. Same with meditation. I'm saying my prayers, and I'm thinking, oh, my butt itches. Oh. Or I have a headache. I wonder if it's cancer. Or I wonder if I turn the burners off, or, God, that guy is on my last nerve, or whatever. And I just. I can say rote prayers with focus. When I'm sitting, when I'm just praying openly to God, I'm usually feeling really needful of prayer. And so that will help me focus a little bit more. But when I'm doing this meditation with the Jesus prayer, oh, my God, it's a monkey on acid in the treetop who is just thinking everything, but Lord Jesus, have mercy on me. So. And I just. You know what you do with prayer and meditation? You just keep bringing the puppy Back to the newspaper.

Father Jim Martin (46:37)

Yeah, my answer, Agnes, I answered that question somewhat at length in my book Learning to Pray about different prayer practices and imagining things going away and, and writing them down and putting them on a piece of paper. But in the end, I agree with Annie, which is one of my favorite prayers is God, I'm distracted, but I'm with you. Or God, I'm distracted and I'm with you. And if God, I always say, if you're out with a friend at dinner and your friend says, boy, I have so much on my mind and I'm really distracted, you would say, well, that's okay. I'm just happy you're here. And if you can say that right, then how much more can God be with us in our distractions? I think we tend to hold ourselves hostage to this idea that you have to be completely emptied and sort of perfectly Zen and with God, but we're all distracted. And so, yeah, God, I'm with you and I'm distracted. Annie Lamott, thank you for the many books I'm gonna start personally and then move out. Thank you for the many books that I have read that have helped me so much not only as a prayer and a believer, but a writer. Thank you for coming on our little podcast to talk about your spiritual life and thank you for all you've done for so many people, so many readers and so many believers and so many skeptics and agnostics and regular old people like you and me. Thank you for everything.

Annie Lamott (47:57)

You're so welcome, Jim.

Father Jim Martin (47:59)

So my final word to you is thank you.

Annie Lamott (48:03)

My name is. You're welcome. God bless you. Good.

Father Jim Martin (48:06)

Thank you. Well, all I can say after that conversation is, wow.

Maggie Van Doren (48:17)

In awe of Annie Lamott.

Father Jim Martin (48:18)

Absolutely. And just how clever and wonderful she is. And I've written an article on americamagazine.org or something you can get in the show notes about images of God. Also, I'd like to let you know that I have a new book out, a memoir called Work in Progress. It's the story of finding work through a variety of crazy summer jobs like busboy, dishwasher, caddy, factory worker, and many more. And eventually finding God. Basically, it's a light hearted spiritual memoir about growing up in the 60s, 70s and 80s and is available in print, ebook and audio anywhere. Books are sold. I really hope you enjoy Work in Progress. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is produced by Maggie Van Doren and Sebastian Gomes and myself, production assistants from Kevin Christopher Robles and Will Gualtieri, Adam Buckmuller engineered the show. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media at jamesmartinsj. Thanks so much and God bless you, Sam.