Episode Overview
Podcast: The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
Host: America Media
Episode: Ron Rolheiser’s unique approach to praying through suffering
Date: August 26, 2025
This episode features a deeply engaging conversation between Fr. James Martin, S.J. and renowned spiritual author Fr. Ron Rolheiser, OMI. Together, they tackle fundamental questions about the nature of spirituality and prayer, explore what it looks like to live a spiritual life in everyday contexts, and consider how to engage suffering through prayer. Rolheiser offers personal anecdotes, practical advice, and wisdom from spiritual masters, with key reflections on commitment, celibacy, and the integration of prayer amid real-life challenges.
Main Discussion Themes
1. Defining Spirituality (04:35–06:46)
- Spirituality vs. Theology: Rolheiser distinguishes spirituality from theology using the analogy of sports—“Theology gives you the rules of the game, but spirituality is how you play it.”
- Living Discipleship: Spirituality is about living out Christian discipleship in all aspects of life, not just devotional acts.
- Prayer and Daily Life: While a distinction exists, Rolheiser argues the ideal is integration: “There’s something very right about living our life so that your life is a prayer.” (06:46)
2. Contemplative Living in Everyday Context (07:55–10:20)
- Domestic Monastery: Drawing from monastic traditions, Rolheiser explains how everyday duties—raising children, going to work—can be seen as spiritual practices.
- The Monastic Bell: “Your alarm clock that goes off in the morning… is your monastic bell. Time isn’t our time, it’s God’s time.” (08:21)
- Fidelity to Your Duties: Fulfilling your state-in-life responsibilities (duties of state) leads to sanctity.
3. Balancing Work and Prayer (10:20–13:07)
- Danger of “My Work Is My Prayer”: Over-identifying work with prayer leads to imbalance; both require attention and intentionality.
- Habitual Practice: “If you’re too busy to pray habitually, that’s a sure sign that you need to pray.” (13:07)
- Adult Approach to Prayer: Citing Anne Lamott, Rolheiser emphasizes prayer as an adult commitment: “You don’t go to pray because it means something. That’s what adults do.” (14:29)
4. Rolheiser’s Personal Prayer Life (15:54–18:26)
- Structure and Routine: Rolheiser describes his routine: Office of the Church, regular Eucharist, and centering prayer (20–40 minutes daily).
- Value of Centering Prayer: “Centering prayer is hard for me. 20 minutes is a long time… but that’s exactly the point, I need to slow down.” (15:54)
5. What Happens in Prayer? (19:14–22:28)
- Experience in Prayer: Discursive prayer brings clear insights, but centering prayer involves “sitting in God’s presence” and letting go of thoughts.
- Deeper Intimacy: Sometimes the most profound communication with God is wordless—“the deeper things happen under the surface.” (21:05)
6. Commitment, Fidelity, and Vocation (24:40–31:20)
- Sacred Fire on Staying the Course: When commitments become burdensome, real life is found in honoring deeper fidelity (24:40).
- Quote: “During those long years of maturity... we can find ourselves standing like Peter before Jesus with every reason of head and heart to walk away, but knowing at a deeper place inside us that for us, real life depends on staying the course. When we honor that deeper place inside us, real life will flow into us.” (25:12)
- Vocation as Compulsion: Drawing on CS Lewis and Daniel Berrigan, Rolheiser emphasizes that true vocation often arises from a sense of deep necessity, not just desire (28:37).
- Quote (Berrigan): “Faith is rarely where your head is at... Faith is where your ass is at. What are your commitments?” (27:14)
7. Chastity and Celibacy (31:48–37:48)
- Chastity as Reverence: “Chastity... is not just about how we stand before sex but how we stand before all of life.”
- Celibacy’s Pain and Fruitfulness: Citing Thomas Merton, Rolheiser is frank about celibacy’s loneliness but also its solidarity with the world’s poor and lonely.
- Quote: “We have the luxury of making a vow of celibacy. Millions don’t have that luxury. It’s forced on them.” (33:07, 34:36)
- Real Dangers: The greatest danger of celibacy is not acting out, but growing selfish without the challenge of intimate partnership. (37:01)
8. Praying Through Suffering (38:00–42:13)
- Danger of Obsessive Focus: Sometimes, taking suffering directly to God in prayer can backfire for those in depression, leading to unhealthy over-concentration.
- Quote: “Sometimes you take your problems to the chapel, and sometimes that’s not where you want to be, because you’ll simply obsess with it and get deeper into it.” (39:10)
- Need for Healthy Distraction: In seasons of depression, practical action and being with others may be more spiritually fruitful than introspective prayer.
9. Advice on Masculinity and Men’s Spirituality (42:45–45:47)
- Navigating Modern Masculinity: Rolheiser critiques both “toxic masculinity” and the notion that men just need to feminize themselves more: “When I am macho and toxic, it’s because I’m not a true man.” (42:45)
- Practical Steps: Encourages men to join healthy groups and talk openly with trusted peers, therapists, or friends.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On spiritual practice in daily life:
“My practice is raising my kids.” (06:46)
— Rolheiser, via John Shea -
On prayer and adulthood:
“You don’t go to pray because it means something. That’s what adults do... If you believe in God, you spend some time, you visit your grandmother in the senior’s home.” (14:29)
— Rolheiser -
On centering prayer:
“You just sit. Am I doing this right?... 20 minutes is a long time. But that’s exactly the point...” (15:54)
— Rolheiser -
On obsession in suffering:
“Depression is a form of over-concentration... sometimes you take your problems to the chapel and sometimes that’s the last place you should be.” (39:10)
— Rolheiser -
On vocation:
“I didn’t become a priest because I wanted to. I became a priest because I had to. This was a call that’s kind of... you’re asked to do this, and I’m going to do it.” (28:57)
— Rolheiser -
On commitment and real life:
“When we honor that deeper place inside us, real life will flow into us.” (25:40)
— Rolheiser (as cited by Fr. Martin) -
On masculinity:
“When I am macho and toxic, it’s because I’m not a true man... The original men’s movement wasn’t to put men in touch with their femininity, it was to help them get in touch with their masculinity.” (44:17)
— Rolheiser
Key Timestamps
- Defining Spirituality: 04:35–06:46
- Contemplative Action: 06:46–10:20
- Prayer vs. Work: 10:20–13:07
- Forming Habits of Prayer: 13:07–15:54
- Rolheiser’s Prayer Life: 15:54–18:26
- What Happens in Prayer?: 19:14–22:28
- Mature Commitment & Vocation: 24:40–31:20
- Chastity / Celibacy: 31:48–37:48
- Praying Through Suffering: 38:00–42:13
- Masculinity & Men’s Spirituality: 42:45–45:47
Closing Reflections
Fr. Martin and producer Maggie Van Dorn reflect on the profound theme of “what do I have to do?” as a sign of spiritual and personal maturity, the balance between honesty with God and the dangers of spiritual over-fixation, and the refreshing frankness of Rolheiser’s approach to suffering and commitment. Listeners are left with an invitation to view both prayer and life’s challenges as opportunities for deeper presence, fidelity, and real connection with God.