Maggie Van Dorn (2:44)

Now, this Vatican gathering of comedians, it took place last year in 2024. Right. And it was over 100 comedians from around the world. Is that right?

Fr. Jim Martin (2:55)

Yeah. Long story short, the Vatican's dicastery for culture and education reached out to me and said, you know, would you help us put together this audience basically with Pope Francis? He wanted to sort of welcome comedians in comics and humorists. And so they asked me to help with the American side of things. And it was a lot of fun. We had, I think, something like 12 or 15Americans. Stephen Colbert, Julia Louis Dreyfus, Chris Rock. You can look it up online. And Whoopi was one of them that we ended up picking. And I had forgotten, and she reminds me in this podcast that she had actually met the Pope before.

Maggie Van Dorn (3:29)

And we're talking about Pope Francis. Just to be clear, too, that this is all, you know, this conversation with Whoopi was recorded just before the death of Pope Francis and the election of Pope Leo.

Fr. Jim Martin (3:40)

Yep. So it was neat to see Francis and Whoopi together. It was a really fun day.

Maggie Van Dorn (3:46)

Great. Well, we'll get to that conversation in just a minute. But first, let's hear a question from our audience. And again, this is a part of our show where we take a question from you, our listener, and it can be a question of, you know, spirituality or prayer somewhere that you might be struggling in your life. And Jim offers some spiritual advice. So this question comes from Luis, who is concerned that spirituality has become a sort of catch all word. And he writes that some people say that they respect my faith and I should respect their spirituality, but many times their arguments are used to discredit or criticize my Christian beliefs. In their view, my beliefs are old fashioned and they want me to keep my faith to myself. What should I do?

Fr. Jim Martin (4:33)

Well, thanks, Luis. That's a really important question. And I think you're right. I think spirituality is becoming more and more imprecise. When people say I'm spiritual, I mean, you want to take them, you know, sort of give them the benefit of the doubt. But you want to say, well, which spirit? You know, like, what are you. What are you talking about? Is it the Holy Spirit? Are you talking about God? What is it? And then, of course, a lot of people today say that they're spiritual but not religious. Right. Sbnr. It's sometimes abbreviated as.

Maggie Van Dorn (4:58)

I've never heard the acronym.

Fr. Jim Martin (5:00)

Yeah, that was back in, like, the 90s. And you know, one of the problems with that is that if you're not connected to a religion, and certainly this, I'm not trying to cast aspersions to people who aren't religious, but religion, as one person once said, helps us to connect and correct. So if you're not in a religion and a religious organization. Right. You're not connected to people as much. Right. We are all naturally social animals. We want to worship together, and it's natural to kind of want to gather together. There's a reason why Jesus chose 12 disciples instead of just one. So you kind of lose that connection. And then also, which is hard for people to hear, you lose the opportunity to be corrected. So, for example, if you say, oh, I'm spiritual but not religious and it's just me and God, and I read the Gospels and I say, I don't really need to take care of the poor. Right. I don't have to bother with the poor. Right. Well, your religious tradition will correct you on that. Right. And the Christian tradition will say, and your church will say, no, you really do have to take care of the poor. So I think that connect and correct is really important. Now, the last part of the question about what happens if people criticize my views and think that I'm old fashioned and they want me to keep your faith to yourself. You know, I think it's basically just talking about your experience and saying, look, this is how I experience the world. This is how I experience God. And to live out your faith the best you can. And you know, if people have a problem with that, I mean, you know, you can say that's kind of their problem. Right. I mean, if you're living out your faith and being loving and charitable and merciful, that's the most important thing about Christianity, I would say, then I think you should be at peace.

Maggie Van Dorn (6:36)

Yeah, I think it's really easy to get baited into a religious argument about whose faith is right or wrong. And I much prefer your approach, Jim, of just grounding yourself in your own faith tradition and speaking from that experience rather than openly confronting someone else for their beliefs.

Fr. Jim Martin (6:58)

Yeah. And those conversations, like, tend to go nowhere pretty fast. But anyway, thanks, Luis, for that great question. We appreciate you writing in.

Maggie Van Dorn (7:07)

Yeah, thanks, Luis. And if anyone would like to ask Father Jim a question, you can write to us at the spiritual lifemericamedia.org and.

Fr. Jim Martin (7:15)

Now a word from one of our sponsors. Looking for a simple way to deepen your own spiritual life? Give Us this Day is a great resource that helps Catholics stay rooted in both Scripture and prayer wherever you are, no matter how busy you are. It features both reliable and relatable spiritual reflections, prayers, stories about the lives of the saints, and, of course, wonderful insights to accompany you throughout the day. I'm really honored to have been an editorial advisor ever since the very beginning. And I write a monthly essay called Teach Us to Pray, and I use it myself. I'm not only a contributor, but a user of it. And here's a great offer. Right now, listeners of the Spiritual Life can get 10% off their new print subscription. It's online, by the way, as well. Just visit giveusthisday.org spiritual life and join this community of Catholics praying together again. That's giveusthistay.org spiritual life. And now onto our conversation with Whoopi Goldberg. Well, Whoopi Goldberg, we are so happy to have you. Thank you for joining us.

Whoopi Goldberg (8:34)

I'm thrilled to be here. You know, I really like talking to you.

Fr. Jim Martin (8:37)

Thanks. The feeling is mutual. Whoopi. We met, I would say, in earnest last year at the Vatican. And I wanted to start off, you know, by saying, I'm sure you receive invitations all the time. What was it like to get this invitation from Pope Francis?

Whoopi Goldberg (8:52)

Well, you know, it was the second time. Oh, right, yeah, for me, because I had just met him several months earlier. And it was amazing because I really felt compelled to speak to him because there was a couple things I wanted him to know and that I thought I needed him to do. And that sounds really odd. But what I mean is one of the things that I needed to see because I have a great friend called Father Aiden who's in Oakland. He runs St. Columba Church, and most of his parishioners are black, and they don't feel connected to the Catholic Church. And that bothered me because at one point they'd been on him about having all these stained glass windows of, you know, black saints that only we know about. Apparently. Apparently the church didn't know about them. And so they were. I just wanted him to say, listen, hey, American black Catholics, you're in my prayers. Also, I'm thinking of you because we haven't always done right by you as a people. So just want you to know you're in my heart, you're in my presence. So I wanted to tell him that.

Fr. Jim Martin (10:11)

So what was his response when you brought all this up?

Whoopi Goldberg (10:13)

Well, I was so kind of stunned that he didn't turn me down to come and see him that I forgot half of it. But it was really wonderful to be in his presence. Because he was my first actual Pope. Right in front of you. Not in a car pass. Because the last one I saw was John XXIII when I was a kid. Wow. Yeah. And you know, I've had a very interesting journey with the Church. So I missed several of the other Popes. Cause I wasn't sure that they understood what we were up against just as human beings here. And I think I said this to you, but maybe I hadn't worked it out yet, but I realized in my mind the test is not for divorced people or gay people or people who think differently. The test is for us and how we treat people, how we stand up for people who don't stand up or can't stand up for themselves, what we do. I think once in my mind that was okay, that that was okay to think that way, I started to feel a lot better about the Church.

Fr. Jim Martin (11:31)

Yeah, that's a great insight. I. You did not say that to me because I would have remembered it. That's a great way of looking at it that the onus is on us to reach out to people who feel like they're on the margins. You know, one of the things that surprised me, I'm. As I've told you, I've always been a huge fan since way, way, way back when. I was actually a little embarrassed to tell you this. When we met for lunch that one day. I didn't know much about your Catholic upbringing.

Whoopi Goldberg (11:53)

Uh huh. Well, I never talk about it.

Fr. Jim Martin (11:55)

Yeah. Can you, can you, can we, can you talk about it now? Can you just fill in the gaps for people like how you were brought up and your schooling and all that kind of stuff?

Whoopi Goldberg (12:03)

Yeah, I went to St. Columba on 26th street and between 8th and 9th in Manhattan. That's the schooling that I had. I went to the eighth grade and then really decided it was not for me and never went back. But you know, I, I grew up believing everything that John the 23rd said, you know, because he was, he was talking to me, you know, he was saying, listen, we need you to make music, we need you to do psalms. We. People don't really want to know so much from the Latin because they want to hear you. They want to hear what you have to say in their language. And I thought, wow, that's amazing. That's right. And then he's like. And all you wonderful nuns, you need to be in stuff that doesn't scare people. That's basically what he was. You know, is way hot in everything you have on. Just, let's lighten it up. Let's bring people back to the church, because that's what we do. And so that's what I always thought the church was and was supposed to be. And, you know, the thing as a kid, you don't really realize is that the church is made up of human beings. And like all of us, some of them are flawed, you know? And, you know, you were hearing so many things, and I was just really mad because it's like if you come out and you say, listen, we know we are chock full of flaws. We know this. So let us get ourselves together and you can help us by moving us forward in your forgiveness. Because some of the things that we need to be forgiven for are huge. Huge. That's what I needed to hear somebody say, you know, and that wasn't what I was hearing. I was just hearing, oh, you know, if you get divorced, you can't take the. The host, or if you've had an abortion. We don't care what's happened in your life. You're out. And to me, that just seemed. Seemed wrong because, yes, there are ten commandments. Not one of them deals with gay people, you know, not one of them says, listen, if you find yourself in a bad situation, you're on your own. God says, come to me. Come to me. So why would I listen to anybody else when God already told me, I'm the only one you need. I'm the only one you need to talk to. So I listen to all of these priests and grownups kind of unwittingly maybe push people like me away, you know, because I. I'm not perfect, you know, but I believe that JC said really important stuff, you know, and, yeah, you know, that's why we. That's why we have confession to go and say, listen, I didn't make it as to the. To the goal line that I wanted to make it to, but I will be back.

Fr. Jim Martin (15:10)

Yeah, no, that's. You know, it's funny. In Old Testament studies, we learned that sin in the Old Testament, which I love, is called missing the mark. That's actually. So that. That's a. That's a great image. You know, I was just writing a homily about Peter, and, you know, the church has always been full of sinful people. Right? I mean, from the very beginning, you know, Peter denies knowing Jesus. Judas betrays him. The disciples argue about who's the best. And so it's kind of from the beginning, but now where. I'm curious. So where are you now with your faith and Catholicism? And all that. How would you describe yourself?

Whoopi Goldberg (15:44)

I think I describe myself as a. As a lover of God. I don't know that I would. I don't know if that makes me a Christian or a Catholic. I don't know the difference. There's too many.

Fr. Jim Martin (15:56)

There are a lot. Yeah.

Whoopi Goldberg (15:58)

And so I'm just. Me and God were good. And I think I told you I have a dear friend called Jonathan Rumi who plays Jesus in the Chosen. So from time to time, I say what is happening? We have great conversations. And his. This show, as a matter of fact, had a huge impact on me because it felt like there were over the last. I want to say Pope Francis been.

Fr. Jim Martin (16:26)

In, oh, gosh, 12, 13 years, I think. Yeah.

Whoopi Goldberg (16:29)

Okay. So just as he was coming in, I was starting to feel like God was tapping me on the shoulder. And I kept moving his hand, moving the hand, said, I'm not speaking to you. I don't want to talk to you. And God's like, what did I do? I was like, well, why don't. Why can't we figure out what's going on and why is this so difficult and what is happening? And God said, has it ever been all that easy? I was like, well, no, but said, well, just, you know, I'm not saying you need to come now, but I'm calling you. Okay, you call me. But you know what I have. You know, I'm a heathen. You know I'm a sinner. You know who I am, Lord. And Lord said, yeah, yeah, I know.

Fr. Jim Martin (17:14)

But let me ask you a question for some of our listeners, because I think they might be sort of wondering when you say that you felt God kind of calling you or inviting you, what does that mean? Like, does that mean in your prayer or just kind of in your. Or things that are happening in your life or just things in life?

Whoopi Goldberg (17:29)

I mean, I hadn't. Listen, I had to look up how to say the All Father again. I mean, it's been a long time. It really had to do with just things started happening, just weird stuff that didn't make sense individually. And then a friend of mine, one of the guys that works on the show, said to me, have you seen this TV show, the Chosen? I was like, no, no, I haven't. Is. I think you. I think you might like it because you went to Catholic school. This is going to change how you look at things. I was like, okay. And then three weeks, a month went by, and it happened that I was at home and I thought, well, okay, let me watch it let me see what's there. And, oh, my goodness. It was. First of all, this is what I assumed Jesus would look.

Fr. Jim Martin (18:19)

Sure, yeah.

Whoopi Goldberg (18:20)

You know, it's like, oh, hello. And he laughed. And I thought, okay, something's up here. Something's going on. Jesus is laughing, he's telling jokes. You know, he's got a sense of humor. And look at Mary. Look at the other Mary. Oh, my God, look at you guys. And I just. I went in and I thought, this is extraordinary. This is amazing. And. And, okay, so I got the call. I hear you. And so I wrote a letter to Jonathan. I said, I don't know who you are, I don't know what you're doing, but this is extraordinary. And I just have to tell you, because I don't generally pay any attention to these kind of things because they never include me. So I never feel like I'm there. And I don't mean include me as an actor. I mean include me just visually. He wrote me back, and then I had to add, and, yes, it's me.

Fr. Jim Martin (19:16)

Right.

Whoopi Goldberg (19:18)

And so we became friends. And then I saw their Christmas episode, and people looked like people. People look like people from my neighborhood. People look like people from New York. I mean, it was filled with humanity. And it was the first time ever that I felt, oh, we are there, we are here. We're all part of this. And that's what sort of got me in the. In the mode to write and say it, because I had. I'd written to Pope Francis because I had that experience with Father Aiden. Now, my brother was devout. He used to go to church every day. I would say, every day? And he'd say, yeah, sis, every day.

Fr. Jim Martin (20:07)

Wow.

Whoopi Goldberg (20:08)

You know, we were wild and weird. And he went to church every day, and I didn't, you know, but he was. He was a good guy. And then he passed, and that was his church. So I got to meet them, and then I had this whole conversation about, you know, black Catholics. And then I wanted to meet Pope Francis. And then one of the guys that works on the show said, I think you should see this show. And it made it make sense to me and which enabled me to write to this guy and say, I'm in search. I don't know of what, but I think I'm supposed to be doing this. So that's been the path.

Fr. Jim Martin (20:49)

So a kind of confluence of different things that happened. And I agree. I think that show is extraordinary, and I think that it shows, as you were saying, will be not only the humanity of Jesus, but That these people were real people who had lives and they had backstories and they had experiences. And I think we tend to see them as just these sort of characters in a, you know, like a comic book almost.

Whoopi Goldberg (21:09)

Yeah, yeah.

Fr. Jim Martin (21:10)

And it really does flesh them out. It's wonderful. So this is, I would say this kind of, you might say, coming back to the church, is it fairly recent, or was it kind of like, sort of percolating all along?

Whoopi Goldberg (21:22)

I think it's fairly recent. I'm not good. I'm not good with any kind of organization. I'm just not good with it. I'm not good with organizations. I work for organizations, you know, because I feel like people will always try to get you to forget the God's everywhere. And you can talk to God anytime, any place you are. So I am in the. In that habit. And I suspect that I'd been talking to God the whole time, and God was just letting me go until he was ready for me to wake up.

Fr. Jim Martin (22:01)

That's kind of beautiful. Kind of, sort of when you were ready. Yeah, yeah. That God kind of pulls you back.

Whoopi Goldberg (22:07)

Yeah.

Fr. Jim Martin (22:08)

We're going to pause for a short break, but we'll be back in a minute. So when you talk about talking to God, what's your prayer?

Whoopi Goldberg (22:31)

Like? What.

Fr. Jim Martin (22:32)

What would you say your prayer is like?

Whoopi Goldberg (22:34)

It's erratic.

Fr. Jim Martin (22:35)

What does that mean?

Whoopi Goldberg (22:36)

Well, it means, like, okay, I pray twice a day. I have my prayers. I remember, and I do, though. And then I start sort of trying to remember all the people I want to pray for and all the things I want to pray for. And sometimes I get so caught up, I just say, okay, Lord, you know what I'm thinking? I just. I can't. I'm done. I can't anymore. And I know I'm okay because I know God does know what I'm thinking.

Fr. Jim Martin (23:04)

Sure.

Whoopi Goldberg (23:05)

So I'm not afraid of it, but I try not to forget to do in the morning and in the evening.

Fr. Jim Martin (23:11)

So you're very faithful then to your. I mean, even though you say erratic, that's pretty faithful. If you're.

Whoopi Goldberg (23:15)

Well, I'm trying. I'm trying. You know, Whoopi, I wanna go back.

Unnamed Host (23:20)

To something that you said earlier and make sure I kind of have the timeline straight. I think you had mentioned that you really started to get this calling from.

Maggie Van Dorn (23:29)

God, and it was kind of at the start of Francis's pontificate, would you.

Unnamed Host (23:34)

Say, like, around 2013 when I started to hear it?

Whoopi Goldberg (23:38)

I'm sure, you know, God's like, wame? Yeah.

Unnamed Host (23:43)

And was that not also the time around that period that you lost your mom and then a couple years later, your brother.

Whoopi Goldberg (23:51)

Well, I lost my mom. And I understood it. I had no problem because she raised us to stand on our own. My brother was her first child. And so for him, her loss was even larger than my own. And because he was a spiritual being, when I went up to close out their house, his house, because they lived on the same property. And so I went up to close his house out because he was supposed to close her house out, he didn't. So I went up and I. I was doing both, but I ended up going to see Father Aiden was my brother's not pastor. He was the priest. He was my brother's priest. And he loved his church. And he loved all the people that went to church. He really loved them. And as I said, I always was teasing him, saying, you go, really every day, you don't miss a day. He didn't miss a day. Father even said, no, he was here every day. And so that's. Losing ham started the road.

Fr. Jim Martin (25:08)

Well, let me ask you, did that affect your understanding of God? Was there anger at God or anger at Jesus, particularly at your brother's death or.

Whoopi Goldberg (25:17)

No, I'll tell you. I was angry at the doctors because if a doctor had said to my brother, and I listen, aneurysms run in the family because your mom died of anatruism, Go and get yourselves checked, he wouldn't have. And then I would have been mad at him. But no, I don't get mad at God about stuff like that. I. I get annoyed when I sometimes forget that there are things that you have to go through in order to learn. And sometimes that's what God makes you do. I pray and pray and pray and pray, pray, pray, pray really hard to get a different outcome.

Fr. Jim Martin (26:00)

Sure, of course.

Whoopi Goldberg (26:02)

And it didn't happen. And I was like, okay. But then I remembered, not in your time, in my time. When it's time, I'll fix it. But you need to see, you need to know this. You need to go, you need to feel this to understand. People need to know what this feels like. Because if you lose your empathy for what happens to people, you're lost.

Fr. Jim Martin (26:34)

People need to know what loss and grief feels like. Is that what you mean, loss and grief?

Whoopi Goldberg (26:39)

They need to know what not being able to guarantee that you can feed your family feels like. They need to know what it's like to be discounted for the color of your skin or your sex or the fact that you Think differently than other people. And we're learning. We're learning.

Fr. Jim Martin (27:00)

Now I'm just curious. Do people in the entertainment industry know that you're a believer, you're a Christian, and do you ever get any flack for it? Because I know sometimes people tell me, well, if you say you're Christian, people think you're an idiot or you're a fundamentalist or you're close minded. Do people ever give you flack for that?

Whoopi Goldberg (27:17)

No, most of the time people are really annoyed at me because, because they're like, no, you can't be. You can't believe what you believe and, and, and love God. It's like, I'm sorry, God knows all about me. God's already up to speed with what I am and who I am and why I am, you know, So I have no fear of that. I have fear of my own sin. When I'm a nasty person for no reason, or when I am fake for no reason, or when I cuss up a storm for no reason, when I'm not as good a person as I could be. That's the stuff that worries me.

Fr. Jim Martin (28:00)

So here's a question. When you, because I'm curious about this myself. When you feel that you're in these situations and you're not the person you should be and you're, you know, you're kind of grumpy or whatever. So what do you do about that? What's your kind of technique?

Whoopi Goldberg (28:15)

Well, it depends on when I figure it out. There's some days I don't realize that I've been bonehead. And then I, you know, some. Somehow the message comes like, it's kind of like my mom and my brother and God all gang up on me and go, hey, you know, you weren't very nice today. Yeah, or you weren't you. Who, who were you today? So I hear them.

Fr. Jim Martin (28:46)

Yeah, I didn't experience yesterday. I was in. Maggie knows this. I was in a terrible mood just for a number of reasons. And I remember someone saying to me, okay, life presents you with these things, these situations and things might not be going your way, but you don't have to. You don't have to be a jerk, you know, I mean, you have a choice. I told a friend once, I think you'll like this. A very good friend of mine, I was teasing him and I said very sort of mock seriously, oh, I said, my life is such a cross, Chris. My life is such a cross. And he said, yeah, but for you or for others, so you don't want to make your life be a cross for others. Since we have you for some time, I'm dying to ask you. One of my favorite movies of many of your movies is. I'm sure every Catholic tells you this sister act. Yes. And I'm really curious. So it's about Catholic sisters. Were there Catholic sisters at Saint Columbus and did you know Catholic sisters? And do you know Catholic sisters and. Yeah. Can you talk about that?

Whoopi Goldberg (29:46)

One of my favorite people just passed last year. She had been my teacher at St. Columba and I was as close to being her in the movie.

Fr. Jim Martin (29:59)

Oh, that's beautiful.

Whoopi Goldberg (30:00)

Yeah. And I wrote her. Her name was Sister Jean Fielder and she was great. She was great. She was like three feet tall and just would beat you over the head with baseball bat if you pissed her off. She took no prisoners. She was great and she was always honest. And so I ran into her, I was performing at some school and a guy got up and said, so my teacher said that she knew you when you were little and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I said, she might have. What's her name? He said, sister Jean Fielder. I said, yes, where is she? And that's how I found her.

Fr. Jim Martin (30:41)

Wow.

Whoopi Goldberg (30:42)

So it. So I could call her and talk to her about stuff and ask her if I was going off on the deep end.

Fr. Jim Martin (30:50)

So was she that she was really that kind of lively as the character you played? Wow.

Whoopi Goldberg (30:56)

Maybe not as lively.

Maggie Van Dorn (30:58)

You embellished a bit.

Whoopi Goldberg (30:59)

Really? That. As lively. But she was close. I made her as close to the woman that she was in my mind.

Fr. Jim Martin (31:07)

You know, and so what, what appealed to you? Was it that no nonsense attitude or the joy or what, what drew you to her?

Whoopi Goldberg (31:13)

She just really wanted to have a good time and wanted you to have a good time too, you know, she wanted you to know that there's nothing wrong with laughing and dancing and acting the fool, you know, because God's okay with that. And she, she probably has a big part of why that flame didn't just go out, why that flame just was like maybe that big as I was coming through my life as a grown up, but it was like a little low flame on the gas stove.

Fr. Jim Martin (31:46)

Well, and that, I mean that in a sense that connects to your experience with the chosen, where you see Jesus who's laughing and you know, Jesus, as I always point out, Jesus, first miracle was to make more alcohol at a party, right? And I mean, he talks about joy, talks about the wedding banquet. And we had this idea of Jesus as being so dour, but he was human. So he laughed. And that's a great story about that, Sister. I'm always curious. You must. Or maybe you don't, but you must have many sisters coming up to you.

Whoopi Goldberg (32:14)

And saying, all the time, yeah, we sing the music. We come and see us. Come and sit. There's a wonderful sister who had been in an Elvis movie.

Fr. Jim Martin (32:29)

Oh, sure. Dolores Hart.

Whoopi Goldberg (32:31)

Yes. And so I went to see Sister Dolores in her later years, and she said. I said to her, do you ever miss it? She said, all the time. I said, well, why did. She said, because I would miss this more. I would miss this more. This is. She said, this was like nothing I was ever prepared for. But when I got that, she said, when that phone rang and I picked it up and it was Jesus on the line, I was like, okay, I get it.

Fr. Jim Martin (33:00)

Did you ever think. When you were younger, did you ever think about becoming a nun, looking at all these sisters and.

Whoopi Goldberg (33:07)

Yeah, but I knew I couldn't live with her, you know, I knew that if I ever became a nun, I'd have to be a nun on an island with a boat, like a hermit.

Maggie Van Dorn (33:19)

A hermit nun.

Whoopi Goldberg (33:20)

I know. But then I could come in and do what all the stuff I needed to do.

Fr. Jim Martin (33:25)

There's a Jesuit saint named Saint John Berkmans, and he. One of his most famous lines, which, I love life in community is my greatest penance. So he loved being a Jesuit, but. And Cardinal Dulles said, well, I wonder what the community thought about him.

Whoopi Goldberg (33:42)

See, I. You know, if we could feel more of that, more people would come to us. I'm. I'm. I've had to take a good look at some of the edicts that I've laid down in my own head, and I know there are wonderful priests like you. You know, you were a big. Oh, yeah, okay. That's right. I forgot. You know, I forgot. And so in talking to you, it just reiterated to me that I. I'm on this path.

Fr. Jim Martin (34:14)

Well, thanks. That's very kind. It's funny to hear that, because I'll been a fan for so long, and.

Whoopi Goldberg (34:21)

I. I pray for you every day.

Fr. Jim Martin (34:23)

Thanks, boy.

Whoopi Goldberg (34:25)

Because you do that thing that I love, which is you let people know who everyone else is, telling, God doesn't love you. You are the one that says, actually, God does. So go on. So I pray for you every day in my erratic prayers.

Fr. Jim Martin (34:44)

That is very kind. Thank you. That's very sweet. And I will take any prayers that I can get. Erratic, sporadic, permanent. Listen, Whoopi Goldberg, thank you so much for all you do for all you are. Thanks for all the joy you bring people, thanks for the joy you bring our listeners, and thanks for being a guest on the spiritual life and sharing some of your spiritual life with us.

Whoopi Goldberg (35:06)

Well, thanks for asking me. It was a gas to get the invitation, so thank you for that.

Fr. Jim Martin (35:11)

That's right. First the Pope and then us.

Whoopi Goldberg (35:14)

Can't go wrong there.

Fr. Jim Martin (35:15)

Thanks so much. Well, that was pretty amazing.

Unnamed Host (35:34)

It really was. She opened up and shared so much more than I was anticipating. What were some of the standout moments? Moments for you?

Fr. Jim Martin (35:44)

I thought her whole experience, which is very common of the journey, and also feeling those tugs from God. And that's one of the reasons I asked her about this, because I think a lot of listeners are curious about what does it mean to feel like that invitation from God? Does it mean that you see, obviously, a vision or you hear something? But as she was saying, usually it's a situation of coincidences and noticing things. And, you know, when her brother died and her mother died, and then the entrance of the chosen into her life and all these things kind of, in a sense, conspire to pull her towards God, which I thought was really beautiful, because I think, again, a lot of people struggle with that. Like, what does it mean to feel this call back to the church? The other thing that was very evident was her love for the humanity of Jesus and how the Chosen represented that. And for so many people, particularly Catholics, that's a kind of aha moment. I mean, we all know Jesus was fully human, fully divine. But when you see stories like the Chosen or earlier, gosh, Jesus of Nazareth or any of those movies, even, you know, the Passion of the Christ, you realize, boy, this was a human being. And it can be really revelatory for people, and it comes in different ways. I think the Chosen has been a way for a lot of people to really fundamentally see that he is fully divine, he's the Son of God, and he is a human being who, as Whoopi Goldberg says, laughs.

Maggie Van Dorn (37:13)

Right.

Fr. Jim Martin (37:13)

What about you? What'd you take away from all of it?

Unnamed Host (37:15)

Well, on that same note, I mean, the Chosen has given flesh to these characters that we are well acquainted with in Scripture. But it made me think about representation, how important that is not only in Hollywood and entertainment, but in our churches and stained glass windows. And it seemed to kind of come full circle for Whoopi, that in order to kind of recognize herself as part of this holy belonging, she needed to see black saints and, you know, people who look like her. And also how helpful it is to see these very human, diverse depictions of the disciples of Jesus and say, I can also see myself here.

Fr. Jim Martin (37:59)

Yeah. And also her. I thought that insight about we are meant not to, in a sense, cast stones and critique other people who might be different from us. We're meant to, in a sense, we're judged on how we treat people who are different from us and who are on the outside and who are on the margins. And I found that very insightful. And then also her identification and her desire to be with people like that. Right. She was constantly talking about people who are on the margins or left, advocate for them, and I found that very powerful. So, you know, I'm a huge fan of hers. And, you know, I met her, you know, I think, in earnest during that Vatican visit and then we had a lunch with her. And I really. I was embarrassed to say that I didn't know much about her Catholic upbringing. And obviously it's a big part of her life. And so I was so happy she was able to share that part of her life with all of our listeners.

Maggie Van Dorn (38:51)

Yeah.

Unnamed Host (38:51)

I think she radiates a kind of joy and self acceptance that I don't recognize in many people. And I think that should be one of the fruits of. Of the Spirit for us.

Maggie Van Dorn (39:03)

All.

Unnamed Host (39:03)

Right. That we know that God loves us, that we have this intrinsic worth and that from that flows freedom and joy.

Fr. Jim Martin (39:12)

Yeah. And her humility, too. I mean, to be able to say I screw up and I'm short with people and I do whatever, and it's very human and it really shows a lot of self awareness, and that's hard for a lot of people to say. Look, I'm, as we Jesuits say, a loved one, sinner. Right. So kind of keeping those two things in balance. But yeah. Wonderful interview. So thanks again to our friend Whoopi Goldberg and to all of our friends who are listeners. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is a production of America Media. It's produced by Maggie Van Dorn and our executive producer, Sebastian Gomes. We recorded in the William J. Lotion Studio in New York City with the production assistance of Kevin Christopher Robles and Grace Lenihan. Our audio engineer is Noah Levinson. Adam Buckmuller edited the video of this episode, which will be made available on America Media's YouTube channel. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media and@james martinsj. Also, please help us grow the show by leaving a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. If you love the spiritual life, then we have even more to offer you on America magazine's website. Keep informed and inspired about our Catholic faith, and you can see an article I wrote about this episode on our website. Become a subscriber today as at americamagazine.org subscribe or click the link in the show notes. Thanks so much and God bless you.

Zach Davis (41:10)

Where has God been most active in my life? What has been my experience of church? Who has been the biggest influence on my faith? You know, if I could canonize anyone, living or dead, who would it be and why? I'm Zach Davis, the host of Jesuitical, and I want to invite you to our first ever Jesuitical retreat where we'll be talking about those questions and so much more. It's happening on Friday, June 27 and Saturday, June 28, in New York City. It's for young adults aged 21 to 39, and there are limited spots available, so please sign up or tell a young person in your life about it. You can find out more@americamagazine.org jesuiticalretreat that's americamagazine.org Jesuiticalretreat.