Why you need a spiritual director

Summary

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The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.

Episode: "Why You Need a Spiritual Director"

Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Fr. James Martin, S.J. (America Media)
Guests: Producer Maggie Van Doren, Fr. Patty Gilgar, S.J.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves deeply into the topic of spiritual direction—what it is, why it matters, and practical guidance on how to find a spiritual director. Fr. James Martin and producer Maggie Van Doren are joined by seasoned Jesuit and spiritual director, Fr. Patty Gilgar, S.J., for a candid, insightful conversation about the tradition, practice, and transformative potential of spiritual direction in the Catholic and broader Christian spiritual life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Spiritual Direction (02:26–04:40)

• Fr. James Martin describes spiritual direction as:

  "Someone who helps you notice where God is active in your prayer and in your daily life." (02:31)

• Distinction between direction and accompaniment: Both are important, but direction involves more active attention to how God is moving in a person's life.
• Historical roots: Spiritual direction dates back to early Christianity, especially the Desert Fathers and Mothers, but became more formalized post-Vatican II.

2. What Spiritual Direction is NOT (04:12–05:31)

• Not confession: It’s not primarily about sins or forgiveness (04:20).
• Not therapy or counseling: While some psychological or therapeutic elements may be present, spiritual direction focuses on spiritual experience and God’s presence, not problem-solving or psychological diagnoses.
• Not just “wise advice”: The director’s job is to help you notice and respond to God, not merely to offer solutions.

Quote:

“It really is about, where is God active? … A spiritual director would say something like, ‘Well, where is God in all this?’ or, ‘Have you brought that to prayer?’ That’s kind of the difference.” — Fr. James Martin (04:40)

3. The Value of Spiritual Direction (05:31–06:59)

• Why have a spiritual director?
  • We often overlook or are blind to God's activity in our lives—an external, trained perspective helps.
  • Spiritual direction is especially crucial during difficult times.
  • Helps recognize patterns, supports growth over years, remembers God’s past presence.
• “Spiritual muscle” analogy: Like physical exercise, our spiritual life needs practice, guidance, and sometimes someone to “spot” or challenge us.

4. Experiences & Challenges in Spiritual Direction (11:16–19:12)

• Patty Gilgar’s approach:

  • Start by helping the person settle, then explain what direction is—and what it’s not.
  • Build mutual vulnerability and trust early on.
  • First question to new directees:

    “Tell me about the last time you felt really close to God. What was it like?” (13:08)

• Naming spiritual experiences:

  “People have experiences of God, but they’re not encouraged to talk about them.” — Fr. Bob Gilroy (15:01)

• Dire need for vocabulary: Many lack the language to speak about God’s presence, so the director helps them articulate these moments.

5. Honest Vulnerability & Fullness of Experience (19:12–21:43)

• Everything is part of our spiritual life, not just “explicitly religious” experiences. Directors encourage openness and recognize all aspects—mundane, secular, even negative—as potential spaces for God’s work.

Quote:

“You can’t just put different parts of your life in a box and store it in a closet. You have to open it all up and show it to God.” — Fr. James Martin (20:53)

• The true mark of a strong spiritual friendship or directorship is honesty, transparency, and willingness to welcome every aspect of life into prayer.

6. Qualities of a Good (and Bad) Spiritual Director (22:37–25:13)

• Seek someone who is trained, not just “holy” (cf. St. Teresa of Avila: prefer wise over holy if you must choose).
• Red flags for untrained directors:
  • Just give advice, don’t listen (22:43)
  • Focus on sin or problem-solving, not God’s presence
  • Are uncomfortable with certain life topics

Quote:

“If all you are doing is listening or sitting there next to somebody and offering them advice... we are not doing the number one thing that a director is supposed to do: help people point their attention back to the Holy Spirit.” — Fr. Patty Gilgar (24:41)

7. Direction in Times of Desolation & Difficulty (28:41–31:10)

• God is not afraid of our desolation: Directors should be comfortable with hard feelings; God can work in anger, sadness, and grief.
• Gradual movement from desolation to consolation:

  “He was almost like he was putting his arm around me… and saying, ‘We’re not looking that direction anymore… now we’re looking over here.’” — Fr. Patty Gilgar (29:00–31:10)

8. Finding and Choosing a Spiritual Director (31:47–33:23, 60:36–62:58)

• Start with relationships and trust:

  • Personal contacts — priests, religious, lay leaders you know.
  • Retreat houses — ask about their spiritual directors.
  • Online directories:
    • Spiritual Directors International
    • Office of Ignatian Spirituality

• Virtual direction is possible and effective, though in-person may sometimes be preferable (62:04–62:59).

9. Prayer Experiences and Holding onto Grace (41:00–45:59)

• Don’t analyze experiences as they’re happening:

  “If you’re getting bored as the director, they are not talking about the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is not boring.” — Fr. James Martin (26:32)

• Use all your senses and memories to notice God’s presence—in physical sensations, emotions, intellect, memory, and imagination.

• Trust your own experience: The task of the director is helping the directee trust what’s happening in their life and prayer (45:59).

Quote:

“God has spoken to you. What was it like? And that task of trusting our experience... it has always been hard for human beings.” — Fr. Patty Gilgar (45:59)

10. Audience Q&A: Common Questions about Spiritual Direction

Listening for God’s Answers (49:53–52:57)

• God responds in ways that “rhyme” with how God has communicated in the past; be attentive to these familiar movements in prayer or daily life.

Fleeting God-encounters (53:16–56:35)

• Let graceful moments happen—don’t grasp or analyze too tightly. Sometimes God’s presence dissipates quickly, and that’s OK; journaling after prayer helps capture and remember.

Finding a Director and Being a Good Directee (60:36–65:38)

• Monthly meetings are typical (64:36).
• It’s normal, not a luxury, for all; financial arrangements can be made when necessary.
• It’s appropriate and respectful to change directors if it isn’t the right fit (67:09).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On what a director does:

  “The real director, as we know, is the Holy Spirit.” — Fr. James Martin (06:59)

• On not “spiritualizing” away hard feelings:

  “The real God... is not afraid of any part of our human experience.” — Fr. Patty Gilgar (35:04)

• On feeling God’s absence:

  “If God feels distant, guess who moved?” — Fr. Richard Leonard, S.J. (39:15)

• On journaling:

  “Write as if no one will ever read this, which means you don’t have to explain anything... God already knows what happened.” — Fr. Patty Gilgar (56:35)

• On reframing direction:

  “If you’re listening to someone and you’re getting bored... sometimes I just cut through it and say, ‘Where is God in all this?’ ” — Fr. James Martin (59:15)

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Practical Takeaways

How to Find a Spiritual Director (60:36–62:58)

• Start with personal contacts or trusted leaders
• Look to retreat centers
• Try online directories (Spiritual Directors International, Jesuits’ Office of Ignatian Spirituality)
• Virtual direction is possible and effective

What to Look for in a Director (63:15)

• Proper training/certification
• Wise and/or holy, per Teresa of Avila—but prioritize wisdom/training
• Ability to listen, not just advise
• Comfort with vulnerability and the full range of your experiences

Frequency & Accessibility (64:36–66:25)

• Once a month is standard
• Direction isn’t only for “professional” Catholics or those on retreat
• Fees are common with lay directors, but can often be managed

If It’s Not a Good Fit (67:09)

• It’s appropriate to move on respectfully; most directors welcome an honest conversation about fit.

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Time-Stamped Highlights

• 02:26 — What is spiritual direction?
• 11:16 — Patty Gilgar’s approach and first conversations with directees
• 19:12 — Inclusive understanding: “Everything is part of your spiritual life”
• 24:41 — On the danger of “just listening” and not refocusing on God
• 28:41 — Patiently walking with people through desolation and difficulty
• 35:04 — “God is not afraid of any part of our human experience.”
• 49:53 — How to listen for God’s answers
• 53:16 — When God’s presence feels fleeting; how to hold on
• 60:36 — Where to find a spiritual director
• 64:36 — How often to meet
• 67:09 — Leaving a director respectfully

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Closing Reflection

This frank and warm conversation demystifies spiritual direction, demonstrating it as an accessible and profoundly valuable practice for all seekers—whatever your level of experience or place on the spiritual path. Fr. James Martin and Fr. Patty Gilgar offer wisdom, practical advice, and gentle encouragement to find trustworthy guides, be honest and vulnerable in prayer, and trust that all of life is the ground on which we can meet God.

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For more information:
Visit americamagazine.org/thespirituallife or submit your questions to the show!

Transcript

[A]

Body, mind and spirit. We believe if one needs help, so do the others. As part of Catholic Healthcare's holistic approach to treating the whole person. Here, people are not viewed as symptoms or insurance claims. And when we treat the body, mind and spirit, we believe the whole person will thrive. Catholic Healthcare. Learn more at wecareyouflourish.org Sponsored by the Catholic Health Association.

[B]

Welcome to the spiritual life. I'm Fr. Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and in their daily lives. And I am joined in the studio by my amazing globetrotting producer, Maggie Van Doren. Maggie, I always say, good to be with you. Good to be with you here. Yeah.

[C]

It's really good to be with you in person here in New York City.

[B]

Yeah. Welcome.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Today we are speaking with Patty Gilgar, my Jesuit brother and my friend. And it is good to say to our listeners and our viewers that this was the very first podcast that we recorded as a kind of test. But it was so good that we decided to share it with you, even though just a little caveat, neither Patti nor me are dressed in our cleric, so please forgive us for that. But can you tell us a little bit about Patty Gilgar?

[C]

So, Patty Gilgar is a good friend of ours, and he is a priest of the Midwest province of the Society of Jesus, meaning he is a Jesuit. He's trained in philosophy and theology and has a PhD in Sociology. He is ridiculously smart, but the real reason that we wanted him on the spiritual life is he's a trained spiritual director.

[B]

Yeah. And this was a really great conversation. You can tell he is a good director. And it's something. Interestingly, even though this was the first show we recorded as a test, it's something that has come up constantly in our podcasts and our conversations. What is spiritual direction? How does it work? How do you get one? And we really are able to tackle these questions that we've been hearing for the past couple of months head on.

[C]

And without realizing it, our audience has been interested in these questions. We received so many questions about spiritual direction. So with that, I thought we could start this episode by tackling some of those questions, kind of like the larger framing questions around what is spiritual direction? And then at the end of the episode, we'll get to the really concrete kind of rapid fire questions about where do I go if I want to find a spiritual director.

[B]

Sure, let's go.

[C]

Okay, so first off, how should we define spiritual direction?

[B]

I say that a spiritual director is someone who helps you notice where God is active in your prayer and in your daily life. So it's basically someone who is helping you notice. And Patty and I talk in this episode about direction versus accompanying, but that's who he is. That's. Or she. That's the person who is helping you notice. Pointing things out.

[C]

Great. So where does the tradition of spiritual direction come from? I know we've been doing it for a long time in the Catholic Church. St. Teresa of Avila talks about getting a good spiritual director who is wise as well as holy, but mostly wise. So where does this tradition come from?

[B]

Well, way, way back. You know, you could say the first spiritual director. I like this at the Supper at Emmaus story is Jesus. One of my directors said, you remember that story that the disciples are dejected and walking away from the crucifixion, and they meet the risen Christ on the way to Emmaus. And they say, we've been talking about these things. Haven't you heard these things that have happened in Jerusalem? And Jesus says, I love this. It's a spiritual direction question. What things? So he's kind of encouraging them because.

[C]

They don't recognize Jesus.

[B]

They don't recognize Jesus. Right. But really, I would say the desert fathers and the desert mothers. You know, people would go out to the monks, you know, the hermits and in the desert, literally, and ask for their help. But it's really something that has started, I think, more professionally, I would say, since the Second Vatican Council. So there were always people who would, you know, listen to you and sort of guide you. But I think this kind of trained spiritual direction was the fruit of the Second Vatican Council, the way that we know it today, the kind of almost professionalized way of doing it. Yeah.

[C]

I think a lot of people might imagine that a confessor would be a spiritual director, but in fact, they are two separate things, right?

[B]

Yeah, that's right. And I think that's a really great question, Maggie. Confession is about sin. Right. And about having forgiveness for your sins and reconciliation in the sacrament. It's not confession. Right. So, I mean, sins can certainly come up, but you're not there to forgive the person for their sins. And certainly some of the people are spiritual directors are not priests.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so they can't forgive the sins in the sacrament. It's also not therapy. Right. It's not deep sort of psychological stuff. There are aspects of therapeutic models that come up in direction. But, you know, I always say to people, look, I'm not a therapist. I'm not equipped to handle that. It's not Pastoral counseling. So it's not problem solving. Right. It really is about, where is God active? And I think the question. If someone brings up a question in therapy, like, you know, I'm so angry at my mother or whatever, and, well, that's a deep sort of psychological question. A psychologist would go deeper psychologically. A pastoral counselor might help you sort of problem solve. A spiritual director would say something like, well, where is God in all this? Or have you brought that to prayer? That's kind of the difference. But so while there are aspects that overlap, it is not therapy and it is not confession.

[C]

Yeah, thank you. That's a really helpful distinction. So what's your best plug for getting a spiritual director?

[B]

That's a great question, Maggie. That it's hard for you to see sometimes where you are overlooking God. Right. One can be sort of blind to those kinds of things and really not see it. And also, sometimes you need to be challenged. You really do. That's why I think you should also always have a director on a retreat. I know a lot of people sometimes say, oh, I direct myself, but that's really. It's like saying, I psychoanalyze myself. Right. It's really hard to do. So I think just to have someone who can help you notice places where you're missing God's presence. And that's in good times and in bad times, I would say, especially in bad times, you know, God's abandoned me. And you say, oh, well, have you noticed this? Oh, I never thought about that. Or I never. I never was looking at that. So. And it's also just good to help you sort of progress in the spiritual life, because a good director will accompany you for sometimes many years. Right. And we'll know patterns and help you go deeper. And also say, oh, Maggie, isn't that something similar as what happened a couple months ago? You know, and weren't you dealing with that? And didn't you ask for God's help in that? And.

[C]

Yeah, to help you remember where God has been present in your life in the past. Yeah. All of it feels like such a muscle, like a spiritual muscle that we need to exercise and sometimes need training, you know, and accompaniment and really direction to do that.

[B]

Well, yeah. And again, Patty talks about this distinction between accompanying and direction. I mean, the real director, as we know, is the Holy Spirit. Look, we all need help, and we need help from a professional, from someone who is trained to say, I think you're missing this, and also, as I said, to challenge you sometimes. So, yeah, all really good things in Terms of the spiritual life. Great.

[C]

Well, we will answer some very practical questions about where to find a spiritual director, what qualifications they should possess, what the relationship might look like. And we'll do that all after the conversation with Patti. But this conversation is so, so rich. And I think it gives you a good taste of the experience of spiritual direction, what it would sound and feel like.

[B]

I think that's right. And as we said, this was kind of a test run. We didn't plan to use it, but both of us listened to it and thought this is really helpful. And Patty is really good at this.

[C]

Yeah. Great. I should also just put our typical plug in there that. If you have a question that you would like to ask Father Jim, you can write to us at the spiritual lifemericamedia.org and now a word from our sponsor.

[B]

Are you looking for a simple way to deepen your own spiritual life? Give Us this Day is a superb resource that helps Catholics stay rooted in scripture and in prayer wherever you are, no matter how busy you are. It features reliable and relatable spiritual reflections, essays on the lives of the saints, the daily Mass readings, and of course, prayers to accompany you throughout the day. I'm honored to be an editorial advisor and, and I've been writing a monthly essay called Teach Us to Pray from the Beginning. And I use Give Us this Day every single day. And here's a great offer. Right now, listeners of the Spiritual Life can get 10% off their new print subscription. Just visit giveusthisday.org spirituallife and join this community of Catholics praying together again. That's giveusthisday.org spirituallife and now onto our conversation with Patty Gilker. So, Patty Gilgar, welcome. Very happy to have you. The audience might be interested to know that we are, in addition to Jesuit brothers, actual friends.

[A]

Well, you can speak for yourself on that one.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. And we have been for some time. I think I've probably known you your whole life in the Society of Jesus. Is that accurate, do you think?

[A]

I think that's pretty fair.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would say we became real friends maybe 10, 12 years ago. And I was in theology studies and you were incredibly supportive to me, which I would say grateful for then, remain grateful for now. But yeah, I think you've known me for a long time.

[B]

Yeah. And I think I came to know you more professionally when you were helping to co found along with Sam Sawyer and Eric Sundrup, the Jesuit post.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which was exciting. Well, how long was that? How long ago was that?

[A]

More than 10 years yeah, sometime.

[B]

And I think I accidentally launched it. Right.

[A]

Yes, you did. In fact, I remember we had put up a soft launch and sent an email out, which I had underlined and bolded, brothers, this is a soft launch. Please feel free to share this by email with all of your friends, but do not post it on social media. And I woke up to furious banging on my door saying, jim just posted this on Facebook and Twitter. We have to get out of here right now and figure out what's going on. It was fantastic. It went wonderfully.

[C]

Did you not know what a soft launch was, Jim?

[B]

No, I didn't read it that carefully. I was just so excited. I mean, we had been waiting for the Jesuit post and everybody knew about it, and I was, oh, my gosh, here it is. And I wanted to really, you know, kind of show my support, and obviously I did, but a little prematurely. So, anyway, Patti, great to have you.

[A]

Thank you. It's a real pleasure to be here. I'm excited about this project.

[C]

Yeah. Well, Patti, we wanted to talk to you about something I know you're very gifted in, and that is spiritual direction. I think of spiritual direction as a kind of accompaniment that someone with spiritual experience, wisdom, insight, might lend to someone else who's also pursuing a deeper relationship with God. And you've probably been on both sides of it as a director and a directee. So will you tell us what is your kind of running definition of spiritual direction?

[A]

Yeah. Thanks, Maggie. I think that's a good definition. Yeah. The only thing I would say is that I think. I think the word accompaniment is both really important, but doesn't quite, for me, capture the fine nuance of what's really happening in direction. Because it's true that the person who is accompanying you is not truly the director. The real director is the Holy Spirit. But I think in real spiritual direction, the spiritual director, as we normally use the term, is, in fact, really important for directing our attention. My attention to two places. One, places where I am turning away from the grace that God's offering, and two, way more importantly, the places of living grace where God's trying to communicate with me. And that's what I think a great spiritual director does, is just two things help me pay attention to the ways that I am turning away from God. And often those are patterns that I do over and over again. But I would also say they're helping me pay attention to the ways in this present moment, God is trying really hard to get my attention and enjoy life with me. That's kind of what I would say direction just points us in those two directions.

[B]

Well, when you talk about accompaniment and pointing people, one of the things that I think our listeners would be interested in is if someone comes to you for the first time looking for spiritual direction, they've been encouraged to do it. And someone says, you really need to do this to deepen your prayer life. What is the first thing you kind of want to do with them? Someone who's a brand new person, they sit down in front of you in their chair in your parlor or whatever, and they say, now what do you tell them? What do you tell them to do?

[A]

I have, like, six jokes that I'm editing out right now, Jim. So, no, but the real truth is, the first thing I want to do is just help them calm down and be present. And so I just want to hear about them. So I have my own ways for doing that. Generally, what I do is I'm like, okay, what brought you here? Tell me just a little bit about yourself. And they'll talk for a little while, but then, like, normal conversation, then they'll stop talking and I'll say, okay, well, let me fill you in on two things. One, what I think spiritual direction is, like, what we'll do, and two, who I am. And then that will kind of give us a sense of, you know, what this might be, you know, you and I together. So I kind of tell them a version, right, of what, you know, we were just talking about, the three of us here. This is what spiritual direction is. So I'll ask you questions like xyz. And then I really try to be vulnerable and tell them really about myself. Like, this is where I'm from, and this is who my family is, and this is what I love, and this is why I love it and what I love about spiritual direction. And. And I, as I do that, I kind of say to people, ask me any more questions you want to ask, because I am an open book about any of this. But I want to, you know, encourage you to ask me now, because if this works for us, my whole attention is going to be on a different relationship. It's not on me, and it's not on me and God. It's on you and God. And so I'm happy to be here with you. I am not closing myself off, but our attention together is someplace else. And then I'll start to, like, walk them into helping to pay attention to what that relationship has been like. So after we get a little rapport, the first question I ask them, once we're like, into the session is something like, tell me about the last time you felt really close to God. What was it like?

[B]

Yeah, that's a great way to start, because, you know, I was told when I studied direction, like all three of us have, that it's about helping people notice where God is already present. You know, One of the quotes I love is from a Jesuit who was around my time in the Jesuits, who died sadly very young, Father Bob Gilroy. And he was a great spiritual director and worked with Native Americans on reservations out in Pine Ridge. Anyway, he said, I love this, that people have experiences of God, but they're not encouraged to talk about them. Isn't that great? I mean, so it's not about manufacturing them or telling them what to experience. It's just sort of eliciting that from them, which I love. And that's really helped me a lot, because people have these experiences. They're just not trained to notice them. And I think another thing that spiritual directors can do is give people the vocabulary. Like, I have this experience that I don't know how to describe, and you're like, well, okay, try.

[A]

Yeah, I do this thing when I'm trying to help people learn how to articulate their own experiences is because people feel nervous, and they also don't know what words they're supposed to use and what they're not. And so I will try to be very concrete with them. So I'll say things like, once we have a good rapport, right? Once I'm not being a super weirdo in this moment, I'll say to them, okay, can I ask you some strange questions about this? And almost always they say, yes. And if they don't, that's all right. But I'll say, okay, question number one. Where do you feel it in your body? Where do you feel God? And then I'll say, so some people, it's like in their forehead, Some people feel, like, in their throat, some in their heart, some in their sternum, some people in their shoulders, right? They feel. Or some people feel it around them. So I just give them options. And then people will be like, that's where it is. And then they'll talk a little bit. And then I'll say, okay, now, when in that moment that you described where you felt like God was close, and it's like, in this place in your body, what is it like? Is it hot or cool, right? Or is it fast or slow? Like, what's it like for you? And then we can break open a sense of what God is giving them in this experience of God self.

[C]

Can you both talk about your first experience with spiritual direction and maybe what were some of the hang ups that you brought into it as a younger version of yourself? And how have those changed over the years?

[A]

I think, you know, even though I've been a Jesuit for some time now, and we are supposed to be like, yeah, I mean, what do people know us for? Right. Either they know us for two things, education or Ignatian spirituality. Right. And Ignatian spirituality is supposed to be this thing where we're able to use our imaginations to live inside the gospel text again, to be able to come into contact with Jesus, Jesus who lives there again. And that's fantastic. And I do help people to pray that way. But I have to be honest with both of you, I just can't do. Just doesn't really work for me.

[C]

The imaginative contemplation of scriptures.

[A]

100%. Exactly. So it's not that it never happens, but it's that when it does, that is for me a real sign that God's given me a gift. Otherwise, I'm very comfortable being with Jesus and I feel have a very living, affective relationship with him. And that does not often overflow into, you know, these contemplations of the scriptures. And so when I began spiritual direction, I think I must have been a problem or a puzzle, you know, for these good Jesuits who were trying to help me because they would be like, well, pray with this passage. And I would be like, okay, what does that mean?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They would often use phrases. People would say, oh, you know, I really felt God close. And I would say, I don't know what you're talking about.

[A]

That is a very helpful confusion. Whether it's real or feigned for the moment, it's really helpful to get people to say, oh, but this is what I mean. It's in fact much simpler and more beautiful when it's simple, I think.

[B]

Yeah, in my experience. I had a retreat before I entered the Jesuits. I had no idea what I was doing. And my retreat director basically said, go out and think about who God is for you. So I came back with this list. You know, I thought it was like a test. Oh, God is the creator, God is the judge, God. And he said, okay, that's good, now go and think about who Jesus is. And I actually said to him, you'll love this. I said to him, I thought it was a trick question. I said, well, Jesus is God. And he was like, right? He was like, yeah, I Know, go and think about it. So I came back and I had this list of, you know, a savior, Messiah. And I remember when I was sitting on the grass outside of this Jesuit retreat house in Weston, Mass. Campion Center, I remember thinking about Jesus as friend. That word literally popped into my mind, just Jesus as friend. And I just started thinking about what it would be like to have Jesus as a friend. And I went into him and I said, I had the strangest thought and I told him and he said, I think you're starting to pray. And so it was the sense of that, you know, it's okay to use your imagination. And that really helped me in the novitiate. I had long term spiritual direction. And I think the tough thing for me was really seeing everything as part of my spiritual life. My first director, David Donovan, who was the assistant novice director, he said to me, a very well trained director, he said. I said, well, you know, I don't want to talk about this part because it's not something that happened in my prayer. And he said, you can't just put, put different parts of your life in a box and store it in a closet. You know, you have to open it all up and show it to God. Everything is part of your spiritual life. Which was very helpful for me and really kind of opened things up because I thought it was just stuff that happened in mass, stuff that happened then when I was reading the Bible, stuff that happened during my, you know, one hour of prayer. And I think a lot of people feel like that, you know, why am I talking about something that happened at work or in my family? I should be talking about, you know, the sacraments? It's like, not necessarily you can talk about the whole thing.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So I think that was a big misconception for me.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's really important. In fact, you know, there's so often we start thinking that there's some huge difference between our experiences of the natural and of the supernatural. Right. And I'm not convinced, you know, like my spiritual life is my life. And right when I am living close to Jesus, that's a great life. And when I'm not, it's not so great.

[B]

I also wanted to say, to bring us back a little bit to direction and finding a director. I think one of the most important things for me, which I always tell people, is find someone who is trained. And I think there's a temptation to say, oh, you know, Father so and so, or Sister so and so, or Mr. Or Mrs. So and so. They're so holy. And I just say, are they trained in direction? Have they actually gone to a course? No, but they're so holy. And it sort of explained to me Teresa of Avila's great quote where she was asked, should I find someone who's wise or holy? And she said, wise. And I used to think that doesn't make any sense, but now I realize, you know, she meant someone who's trained. It's an art or a skill or a science even. And you can't go to someone who's just like. Just a holy person who doesn't know the first thing about what they're supposed to be doing. So I think that's an important part, too.

[C]

Jim, what are some of the telltale signs that someone is not trained as a spiritual director?

[B]

I love that question. It's such a great softball question. I'd love to hear what Patty thinks, too. Oh, well, the first thing is. The first thing is they just give you advice. You know, I'm really struggling with this death in my family. Oh, well, you know. You know, don't be so sad. You know, get out of the tomb. You know, look on the bright side. That's the first thing. Not listening. That's a big one. Just talking and talking and talking. Not being able to identify, you know, the movements of the spirit to say, well, that sounds like God, or that doesn't sound like God, or it sounds like the evil spirit. And then I think also not. I think also being uncomfortable with things that you bring up. You know, if you bring up something about sexuality or addiction or just something that. And you can feel them kind of pulling back. So. But I think the real telltale sign is all they do is give you advice, and they don't listen. And I've had directors like that, and it's. You can tell they're just. They're just not trained. What about you, Patty? What are telltale bad spiritual direction signs?

[A]

No, I think you've named the most important ones. And I think that the temptation to give advice, I think, is a very normal thing that comes from a good place. Often that happens in young spiritual directors. And so I think. Okay, I was going to say this a little earlier, and maybe I can say it now. Is that the word accompaniment? I actually. I love in some ways and don't love in some ways or another way that people say it is that, you know, spiritual direction is really just like holy listening to others. Now, look like there are all kinds of ways that that is true, because without holy listening, you cannot do the Other things that are required for being a spiritual director. But if all you are doing is listening or sitting there next to somebody and offering them advice after you're doing, then we are not doing the number one thing that a director is supposed to do. Help people point their attention back to the Holy Spirit.

[B]

Oh, totally. I mean, I totally agree. I mean, I completely agree. That is not direction. The other thing is, I. People, sometimes a bad director, particularly a priest, will focus on sin.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

And it becomes like confession. This is not confession. So direction is not pastoral counseling. It's not advice, and it's not confession, and it's also not therapy. You know, the other thing is, I'm not a psychotherapist. I'm not a psychologist. And so we also have to be very careful of not sort of overstepping that as well.

[A]

I think that's exactly right. And what I really want to say is one of the signs that somebody is maybe a wonderful person, but is not at the moment doing direction in a way that I would be satisfied with is that they focus on problems. And so many people come to spiritual direction because they have a problem. Right. Well, there's this presenting issue that is leading them to show up here. And look, that is absolutely fine. It really is. If anybody out there listening is feeling like there's an issue in their spiritual life and it's that issue, the dissatisfaction action, that is driving you to consider doing spiritual direction, don't hesitate. Just go. Right, Go. But what a good director will do is, in fact, frustrate you if you try to focus on that as a problem. Because there's one fundamental thing that we don't know yet. We don't know whether God considers the thing you consider a problem a problem. We don't know yet. And that's what we have to find out. Because it's not my opinion as the director that counts. And it's really not your opinion that counts, not your opinion alone that counts. It's you and the Lord. And my job as a director is to put you in contact with the God who loves you and with that loving God, in the presence of that loving God, then maybe that problem will come to the fore, but maybe it won't.

[B]

Yeah. And it also takes time sometimes for God to weigh in with the big problem. And that's part of the kind of patience that the director has to give to the directee, as we say. And one of the things I like to do in direction, particularly when people are, you know, they will. I'm sure you find this they will say, well, to understand this, you need to understand the situation. And they'll go on and on and on about this very complicated situation, which, you know, life is complicated. A spiritual direction counselor said to me once, which I loved. If you're getting bored as the director, they are not talking about the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is not boring. So if they go on about something long, complicated, you know, then I said this to that person, and he said this to this. And I often say, where's God in all this? Right. And then they kind of take a breath and say, oh, well, here's where I find God in that, you know, or here's what my prayer was telling me. So I think part of it is also, as you were saying, Patty, really focusing them on God. Right. And that's hard because it's not problem solving. And as you say, it's sometimes that is not what God wants to talk about. I find oftentimes I go on retreat with my list of problems. Yes. And the first day, God just wants to take it away and have me focus on something simple. Nature or grace or just something simple about Jesus. And I say, geez, what about my problems? And yet being with God, in a sense, is the answer.

[C]

You know, I like this phrase that I've adopted recently, and it's worrying is worshiping the problem. You know, to just focus on the problem itself and how to solve it and, you know, kind of dwelling on the negativity of it, that it is presuming that I alone will be answering this problem or this question. And then it doesn't leave room for God. And then it also almost makes the problem an icon or replaces God, an idol.

[A]

Thank you. That's right. I completely agree. And just very briefly, like to be, you know, a little more practical. Practical from on my own part. Just recently, the last couple weeks, I had something happen to me. You know, nothing traumatic, nothing terrible. Right. But that really moved me into desolation. And that is.

[C]

Can you define desolation for us, Daddy?

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Just the absence of the good things of the spirit, which means, you know, so an absence of faith, an absence of hope, an absence of trust, these kinds of things, absence of love in my life. And being moved by that absence, like being my affect, my thoughts, my energies, being moved by the absence of those good things. That's what desolation is like. We all know what it's like once we kind of say it out loud. And I found myself kind of in one of those places, and there was A moment where, just as you were saying, Jim, where I really needed to stay, present to the hard feelings that I was feeling. Grief, anger, sadness, right, frustration that were there and to be there not alone, but with Jesus. And I need to stay with them. I just couldn't move. I wasn't ready to move yet. But, you know, after not so long, four, five, six days, right, it was clear to me that Jesus was moving and he was moving me gently. He was not running away. He was not angry with like my anger or sadness or frustration there. He was not that way. But he was almost like he was putting his arm around me and just kind of like, like turning my body 45 or 50 or 60 degrees and saying, no, we're not looking that direction anymore. We don't have to walk yet. But that's not where we're looking now. We're looking over here. And then once he moved me, then I could take, you know, one step away from the desolation and being moved by something like consolation. And that meant for me moving away from some of the anger into more of an experience of grief. And then from the grief into something else and there into something else. And that slow movement away from the, you know, the white hot heat of the desolation could. Was such a gift to me. Jesus did not allow me to stay there. He was not satisfied with it. But also he moved me at a pace that I could move, not at somebody else's pace. But I needed to be moved by him. I wanted to be moved towards the grace. And because of what we said earlier, I know what it's like when he's with me. I know how he is with me. I could pay attention. I needed some help. I had to talk to my spiritual director.

[B]

Well, I was just gonna say, Patty, I think that story points out the need for spiritual direction because I think you have had spiritual direction for many years. You have a sense of the movements of the spirit. And I think for someone who is in that situation, you need someone to really help point out what's going on. Because those are very subtle movements. And I think one of the things that frustrates me about direction for most people is that they don't know where to go for it. They don't know where to get it. They hear about it all the time. We talk about it at American Media all the time. I talk about it in my books, but then they say, where am I supposed to go?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So actually, how about some tips for people? Where would they go? They're hearing this and they're thinking, oh, that sounds wonderful. Where do they go? What do you tell them?

[A]

I tell them to. In fact, this is what I tell everybody who asks me for this kind of advice. I tell them, go on the website of America Media and look up Jim Martin's email address.

[B]

That's right. Here's my. You can text him.

[A]

Right? Right.

[B]

Sometimes I feel like people are doing that.

[A]

No, it's really difficult, in fact, to know the right places. Of course there are some things that we can, you know, you can Google the, you know, Catholic spiritual directors or Ignatian spiritual directors and find the places to go where you might need that. But what I find often is that people want in a spiritual director someone they can trust. And those things happen through relationships. So, you know, I'm a college professor and so there are a lot of students that I work with who I would love to give more time to. In fact, I think I love being a teacher. I'm very happy doing research. No problems there. But I think if I had my preference, I would just be like a full time spiritual director or pastor. It's like all I really want to do, maybe especially on a college campus because there's so much good things that God is trying to do with these people. But I find that they want, they want to know how to name their own spiritual experiences so that they can dwell more deeply in them. And what I will often do is be a connector for some of these people so that I can help them connect to other Jesuits or to other lay people I'm friends with who are really good at this kind of work. But that trust is so key to be able to know where to Wish.

[C]

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[B]

Go.

[C]

I'd like to ask you both. You mentioned earlier that we don't want to become totally fixated on the problem, that we want to turn our attention to what God is doing in our lives. It can be really hard, Patti, as you described, when you're in a state of desolation, when you feel pretty consumed by the problem at hand, to even identify the voice of God or, you know, the movement of God. How do you walk people through that or point to that when they're so consumed with what ails?

[A]

That's a great question, Maggie. The first thing I would say is that the real God, the living God, is not afraid of any part of our human experience. And I want to start that way because often we feel like we can feel like I hear in spiritual talk a lot, that, you know, God is really only associated with the good feelings, with good things, right? We can even misuse words like consolation and desolation in Ignatian language that way, to say, well, consolation is the only thing God has to deal with, right? And desolation. We have to be more careful here. God is not offended, ashamed. He does not need to distance himself from any kind of human experience. And so the first thing is that it's not my job as a director to make the person move away from a hard feeling. I have no interest in doing that. In fact, Jim, as you said earlier, one of the most important things to find in a good director is somebody who's not afraid. And I know for me, like, that's really the only measuring stick I have for a good superior in the society of Jesus is somebody who's not. Not afraid when I'm afraid, right? Like, when I'm not. Okay, are you okay? And that's all I really need from a superior and similarly from a spiritual director where I can come into the room and say, I'm really not sure what's going on right now. And I have this inchoate experience and this sense of chaos and this, you know, grace and this real excitement, but I don't know where he is yet. Can you help me? And putting myself in the hands of somebody else like that is really essential. And it often begins, especially when we're not in the best place, by just naming where we are. Okay, well, what is the grief like? What's the anger like? What are the words that come to whom are you saying them? And that kind of opening up, staying with the experience of difficulty Then kind of can allow that question that I think you asked really nicely before, Jim, in a different context. Do you have any sense of God being present to you in the midst of the anger, the grief? And then as a director, my job is just to wait and do not rush and wait with the person. Often, as you were saying, you've been a director for somebody for 20 years. The longer I've been a director for somebody, the more time in the session we spend saying nothing. And the person is talking to Jesus, and then they'll kind of come and report back what was. It was kind of like this. And then all I have to do is help. Do we just stay with that experience, or did we move away and have to move back a little? It's fantastic.

[B]

Yeah. I find that in terms of problems, I always go back to one of my mentors, Bill Barry, who wrote, along with Father Connolly, the Practice of Spiritual Direction, a great book that came out. And he compares a relationship with God to a relationship with a friend. And all the things that make up a good friendship make up a good relationship with God. So what makes a good friendship? Well, you spend time with the person, you're comfortable with silence, you're comfortable with change. But one of them is honesty, right? And he said, I'll never forget this in the book. And this is also in his book, God. And you'd. If you are formal with God and say that only the things you think God wants to hear, it's like being with a friend who you're kind of blocked. You can't really say the tough things. And what happens in a friendship, it gets cold and distant and formal. And that's what happens in your spiritual life. And so he encourages people in times of problems to be open and honest. And what does that mean? You know, maybe literally just imagining yourself in front of Jesus or God and being honest about the experience and to see what happens, because that can really unblock somebody. So what I normally do at the beginning of that kind of situation is say, you know, have you brought this to prayer? And almost always the person says no, because I mean always. And Patty's laughing too, because it happens, you know, because I'm so upset about it. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it. Well, that's step one, right? Just get it out there.

[A]

And it's so important just to be able to let them say, no, I haven't done it yet. And just to be there with them and be like, I know it's so hard, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, it is. And they don't want to. And who wants to. But you know, that blocking it can be a real roadblock to deepening your spiritual life. Richard Leonard, who we both know, who's a Jesuit spiritual writer, says, I love this. If God feels distant, guess who moved?

[A]

That is right. That is right.

[B]

Yeah. So, but then, like, eventually, then you have to say to the person, all right, now what's God's response? Like when you were able to kind of unburden yourself and cry and, you know, pound the bed and pound the pillow or whatever, what happened next? And usually it can take weeks or months, but usually there is, as Patti was saying, God turns your eyes to something else. It's either a moment in time when you had a problem and God was able to accompany you a scripture passage, someone who's been helping you. But I think you have to go past that initial sort of block and be honest with God in your prayer. That's what you know. By the way, speaking of not being afraid of the negative stuff, one of the most wonderful passages is in, not surprisingly, the story of the raising of Lazarus in John 11, where Jesus goes to the tomb of Lazarus and he says, take away the stone. And Martha, Lazarus sister, says, there will be a stench. And Jesus is not afraid of that. He's not afraid of the stench in our lives or anything that's rotten or dead, which I love. You know, it's such a great spirituality insight. You know, Jesus is not afraid of that. God is not afraid of the stench. You got to take away that stone, you know, to really open it up, to experience new life and to hear God say, come forth.

[C]

One of the biggest obstacles that I've had in prayer and even in spiritual direction, especially early on, was around language. Maybe because I love language so much and words matter deeply to me. But I felt, on the one hand, because I was raised Catholic and had this treasure trove of Catholic words to talk about God, that. That I knew where to grab them. I knew kind of the right words to use, but they were no longer deeply resonant with my life and my prayer. And I think probably a lot of Catholics might feel something similar to this, where it's like, I know what I think I ought to be saying, but that might not match my experience. Have you guys encountered anything like that? Giving or receiving directions?

[B]

All the time. I mean, particularly at the beginning. And that's where I try to use feeling words. I had someone recently, and I had. Sometimes you have to laugh in direction. I said, you know, what was that prayer experience like? And he said, it was nice. And I said, I'm sorry. That is just. That's just not gonna cut it. So, you know, Maggie, sometimes I'll say to people, what were you feeling? You know, and that when you ask them for words that are emotion words, not all the time, but that can help. I was sad, I was joyful. I was disappointed. I was frustrated, and that's a start. But, you know, as Bob Gilroy, that Jesuit I was quoting said, we have to encourage people to be honest. And even as Patty was saying, I love the word inchoate, sometimes they can't describe it. It was as if. Or it was like. And that's okay because we're just defining. We're trying to describe the ineffable. That's okay. So it's just helping. It's just kind of drawing it out. What would you say, Patti?

[A]

Two things we all know. Like Ignatius in the Exercises, Spiritual Exercises, you know, his book of instructions on the Jesuit spiritual life and the way we make our understand ourselves. He says in there, pay attention to the smells, the sounds, the tastes, the feelings on your body, what is around you in the space. And so I will do that often in trying to help people come to what we tend to call, you know, an image of God. And I have to be honest, you know, even though people have said this to me for years, like, the. I don't have an answer to the question, like, what is your image of God? Like, I don't know, you know, but what I do know is what it's like when God is around and how my heart feels and how my body feels, how my mind feels. I know how he gets at me and, like, what the tone of his voice, quote, unquote, is like. I know that for me, which is really important. So the first thing I would say is the senses. And then the second is related to that. It's memories. And so often I will help ask people or try to help people. Go back to a time in your life when this feeling was there. What comes? And then people will hesitate sometimes because they're like, this is weird. Like, I don't know, like, what's going on? And I'm like, no, no, listen. You have to trust yourself, and you have to trust that the Holy Spirit will lead you to a place, lead you to a memory. There's something there that God. There's a gift there that God is still trying to give you in that memory. Stop saying no to it. Go back, right? And then, like, when we can get in there, and then I'll just have them walk me through the memory. I'll be like, what was it like? Who was there? How do you feel? Does the same thing happen in your memory now? Is something new happening? Then there's this. There can be this vibrancy, you know, so it's. It's almost like getting to do. And Ignatian contemplation of your own life. What was God trying to do there, and what's it like for you now?

[B]

Well, you know, it's funny, Maggie, that's really a great question. One of the most. Maybe the most sort of misunderstood part of the spiritual life is that people don't know what to expect when they close their eyes to pray. And so one of the reasons I wrote this book, Learning to Pray, one of the main reasons is to say something that all spiritual directors know, that lots of different things could come up, right? As Patty was saying, a memory, but also desires, emotions, physical feelings, words and phrases, insights like we tend to sort of denigrate intellectual insights. Something clicks.

[C]

One thing I've noticed that you both are doing is you're giving people permission to access all parts of themselves in a very embodied way. So sometimes that means, like, accessing the physical sensations that you have in prayer or just throughout your life and noticing those. And other times it's the imagination or the intellect or kind of an emotional moment. And saying, like, nothing is off limits here. In fact, it's all very integral.

[A]

Yeah. One of the things that I think is so important here is that, as you both are saying, a way that I understand what it is to be a spiritual director is simply the task of helping people trust their own experience. It's there. God has spoken to you. What was it like? And that task of trusting our experience. I think it has always been hard for human beings. But the thing that's important is that it's been hard for different reasons at different times in human history and without. I don't want to belabor the point too much. You both know, like, I teach, you know, sociology and social theory and all this kind of stuff. And one of the reasons, though, that this theory can help us, you know, understand our own spiritual experiences today is that one of the reasons we have difficulty trusting our own experiences now is because we're taught that the way to truth is to step away from something and analyze it more carefully. That's what the scientific method is, right? Step back and do it again. And the scientific method is fantastic. There is nothing wrong with this and nothing to be afraid of. But it is not the same thing that we have to do in our own spiritual life. Instead, we step in to the experience and trust that we don't have to control it, control the outcome before we begin. But instead, I will begin, and the one with whom I begin will guide me along the way.

[C]

We're not afraid of our own subjectivity.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And also, I mean, as you were saying, Maggie, God affects and communicates with people in different ways. And, you know, it could be something as easy as. Or simple as a physical feeling. You know, I felt this sense of calm. I remember during the pandemic, people would say, well, I finally, when I was praying, I felt this sense of calm. Where do you think that's coming from? I said, well, you know, it might be coming from the person who said, peace be with you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, you know, which isn't the other thing I wanted to sort of double back on is I think we tend to, particularly in Jesuit spiritual circles. I'll see if Patty agrees with this. We tend to privilege just the emotions. Right. And so the old joke in a Jesuit house is, you know, how was your retreat? Did you cry? You know, if you didn't cry, it doesn't count. And honestly, I went. I've been to a couple retreats, and I didn't cry. And I actually had to say to my director, I feel, did I fail? And I think we tend to denigrate, for example, like an insight. You know, you might be praying with a gospel passage and something clicks and you say, my gosh, I never noticed that Jesus was doing X, Y or Z, or the disciples did this or this was an insight that I got from this prayer period. And that's okay. It unlocks something. It doesn't mean you have to be sort of on the floor crying all the time. So some people get it that way. Some people have insights, some people have images. We have to be comfortable with the different ways that people pray. You know, if you are not someone who likes a lot of images in your prayer, it's okay. You're not a bad person. You're not a bad Jesuit. You're not a bad, bad directee. It's okay. And to really. And that's another challenge for the director to really allow the person to pray as they pray and allow God to be God as God wants to be with that person, not as you want God to be with that person. Which is a big challenge.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Really allowing the priority to remain with the Divine.

[C]

So we have asked our audience to submit questions to the show and then we go read through those questions and we pull out certain questions that we think our guest, in this case you, Patty, might be able to help us answer. So I've got two questions here. The first is from Rosanna and she asks how should we listen for God's answers to our prayers? So maybe we'll start there. Like, how should we listen for God's answers to our prayers?

[A]

Yeah, my answer to that question is that we have to listen for things that rhyme with the way God speaks to us. So we have to notice first, like, what is it like when God is close by to us? And any answer that God will give to the prayers we are asking, we are making will rhyme with that. It will harmonize with that. It will sound like God sounds in that way. So to the different experiences we've talked about before, you know, if I experience, I tend to experience God, like very tactilely. Like I just want to hold his hand. Like I want to hold Jesus's hand sometimes. And that if it feels like a hand, my hand being held, that's a great sign that it's the Lord responding to this. Now that's a nice answer to a question when prayer is like about relational intimacy. But if we're asking God, you know, God, can you please, you know, help me to reconcile with my very difficult co worker that's a more difficult thing to know where the answer is. But I think the answer still applies, that I'm giving an answer that the Lord will provide. Rhymes with one that sounds like the voice of the Lord.

[B]

Yeah. And I would say it's not only how, but where, and the answer is everywhere. Right. So it's not just something that may happen in your prayer. Right. Something might unlock in your prayer, but that in your day to day life you may find an answer, you may get an insight, or something may change. And so, you know, to Patty's example, if you are suddenly gifted with an insight of how to approach this person that you have a difficult time with, Right. And you feel like you're given that grace to say, yeah, that's the answer to the prayer. Right. So it's not just in your formal prayer period. I think that's what people tend to sort of hold themselves hostage to, to, you know, I didn't get a prayer experience that solved this, but in their day to day life, they may. So I think it's listening and looking everywhere, you know, for God's answers.

[A]

I think that's exactly right. And one of the. There's a short story that another Jesuit brother of mine told me. This is true. In his life, when he was discerning the Society, he went up to a Jesuit he really respected and trusted and said, you know, Father, I've been discerning the Society, as you know, would you please pray for me in this process? And the Jesuit said, sure, sure. What would you like me to pray for you for? And this young man at the time said, clarity. And the older Jesuit said, no, I will not do that. And he's like, what are you talking about? Why would you not do that? And he said, they knew each other. And the older Jesuit said, no, you don't need any more clarity. You need courage. I'll pray for you for that. And this is often like the way. Just as to Jim's point, Right. God will sometimes answer those prayers that we make in real life, right. Say, now's the time. Go say you're sorry, or go let them know how you feel. Right. Do it. Rather than, here's the secret solution that will solve the difficult problem you're having.

[C]

That's profound. Okay. The next question comes from Morgan. And they write that sometimes they feel God's presence, and as soon as they try to experience it or stay in it, the feeling dissipates. And it's like trying to remember a dream.

[B]

Yeah, that's quite common. I find that in my own prayer. I think it reminds me of something that someone said when I was on retreat, that when you're praying, don't journal as soon as you have the experience. Don't say, oh, my gosh, I got to write this down. Just let it happen. I think Bill Barry's analogy of it being like a friendship, it would be like, let's say Patty and I are very good friends. Let's say we go out to dinner and we're having a great conversation, and in the middle of the conversation, I say, this is a great conversation rather than just letting it happen. Now, maybe you text Patty on the way home. You say, hey, it was great to be with you. But if I keep saying, this is amazing, you're an amazing friend, you know, it sort of ruins the experience. So I think part of it is trying not to analyze it so much. That's the first thing. Don't analyze it. Don't say, what's going on? Oh, this is so beautiful. I'm now being called to this deeper level of intimacy. Just let it happen. But the other thing I would say is that if it does happen. Don't feel guilty. And these moments of encounter with God can be very fleeting. And that's okay. You have 10 seconds of it. That's fine. You know, just sort of be grateful for what you had. That's fine. And that happens, I mean, on retreats. A lot of times it takes me a couple days to really settle down. Maybe finally by day four, I have some really wonderful prayer. And it's, you know, it can be temporary. It's just like I always say, like the transfiguration. You know, Jesus says, time to come down from the mountain.

[C]

And who doesn't want to stay on a mountain? Experience, right? All of us just want to stay in like a sublime state. As fleeting as it might be. We really want to anchor ourselves there.

[B]

So what would you say, Patty?

[A]

Very much. Something similar. I would just use a different image and maybe it will be helpful, is that I think when we're given something by God, an experience, a feeling, etcetera, Our job is to remain with it as long as we can, but not remain to it with a tight grasp. Instead, we can either hold it in our own hands. You might do this, like, hold your hands open before you in prayer and just hold the experience in your hands. And if it's, you know, if it's like a dandelion and it. And it flies off, that's okay. You don't need to grab hold of it. Just let it stay there with you. Another way, though, is you might not need to hold it yourself. You might ask for the experience to be held for you by God. Like, please do not allow me to lose this. Please hold me as I'm having this experience. And that request is already. The first image is, we hold this with loose hands. And the second one is even more of the same. Like, no, no, I do not. I don't even have the capacity to hold it with loose hands. I have to ask you to hold me and hold it with me.

[B]

And I also think, I always tell directees, I mean, even if they're not on retreat, write this stuff down after you're done.

[C]

After. But not during.

[B]

Not during. Definitely not during. The spirit that pulls us away from God, which Ignatius calls the evil spirit, is going to want to make us forget. And just at some point, even if it's just a line or two, just write it down somewhere. As Patty was saying, that can help you to hold onto it, because we do forget.

[A]

Another thing about journaling is that, and I say this because I do it is that write as if no One will ever read this, which means you don't have to explain anything. That's the key difference for me. I just write in brief notes, then this, then this, then this, then this. Because God already knows what happened. I already know what happened. I'm not explaining to anybody. And that, like, blocking out of that space so that it's really just for me and Jesus that is so helpful for me to not perform or protect in my own spiritual experiences.

[B]

Although it's going to make it so hard for your biographers and your hagiographers to understand these notes. There's going to be, like, seminars on understanding Patty Gilgar's notations.

[A]

God forbid.

[C]

Well, I could hold on to this conversation all day, but I think we need to hold it loosely and let you both go. Thank you so much, Patty, for coming on the podcast and sharing your great wisdom and spiritual direction with us.

[A]

Maggie, it's always wonderful to be with you, hear your voice. Jim, great to be with you also, my friend.

[B]

Thank you, Patty. God bless you.

[C]

So, Jim, we obviously recorded this conversation with Patty several months ago, but as you re listened to it, what stood out to you?

[B]

Well, the one thing that stood out for me is that he's really good at this. Right. And I was really happy that we, you know, recorded this. I think his distinction between accompanying and direction is really helpful. He talked about, you know, getting someone who can listen. Right. Which is helpful. It's good to have a friend who can listen and accompany you. But a director really is different. And I think people are a little reluctant to use that word director, because it does sound a little too, well, directive. Right.

[C]

Well, it can be overbearing if done wrong.

[B]

Right. Like I'm going to tell you, Maggie, like, this is how you should pray, or this is what God is doing. That's probably a misnomer, but it is more than listening. Right. Because the person will challenge you and say, I think you're missing God here. And what about this? Or what about in your daily life? Or that sounds like the evil spirit? Or that doesn't sound like the good spirit to me. I mean, that's a really important thing that someone who's, I would say, just listening is not doing.

[C]

So one of my favorite parts in this conversation, Jim, was when you said that if a person is going on and on about the mundane details of their life or a problematic situation, that is. And if you're bored, that is likely not where the Holy Spirit is active.

[B]

Yeah. I took a spiritual direction practicum with Bill Creed, who's a Jesuit that a lot of other Jesuits know. And Martha Busey and one of them said, the Holy Spirit is always interesting, which is true. Right. And so if you're listening to someone and you're getting bored now, I mean, you could be tired or perhaps distracted, but these long stories about this person. Then they said this to me and then they said I said this to them. And you know, it gets very complex and you. Sometimes I just cut through it and say, where is God in all this? Yeah, Right. So I think. And that it's helpful to redirect the directee, as they're called as well, to say, let's focus on God, not this. What can be sometimes just a lot of particulars that you don't need.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So, yeah, it's a sign to me that we're not talking about the Spirit if I'm getting that bored.

[C]

And that is why a director, a very active person, is so essential. Because we can get really lost in the details of our lives and miss the big picture.

[B]

That's a great point. Yeah. Totally wrapped up and. Right. And miss the big picture. You know, who is God? And that's what a good director does. I mean, a really good director will kind of. It's a terrible image. Hold your feet to the fire and say, let's move back to God. We're getting away from God.

[C]

Yeah, totally. So let's answer some of the really practical questions that people have submitted about spiritual direction. First one, where do we find a spiritual director?

[B]

Yeah, that's the most common question. Because I think listeners of the spiritual life have heard this so many times. Spiritual direction, and they say, where am I supposed to get one? I would say the first place to look would be people that you know and trust. Okay. So if you know that I'm seeing a director or have, you know, kind of contacts, you know, it doesn't have to be a priest, a religious someone who's a Catholic lay leader. They usually can say, here's someone who's starting out, or here's someone who's looking for directees or open to directees. That's the first place. So personal contacts, many of us don't have those contacts. So start at a retreat house, you know, go online, find a nearby retreat house. That doesn't mean you have to go to the retreat house to see the director. Right. But they usually have a stable of directors who come to give like weekend or eight day retreats. So they'll know all the directors in the area. So one of the places I Go to often is Eastern Pointe Retreat house in Gloucester, Mass. Well, they have a whole stable of directors that come in and out. So if I'm in New England, just, you know, call Eastern Pointe and they'll tell you kind of who's in your area. The other two places are online. There's a website called Spiritual Directors International, which is pretty amazing, and they will, you know, kind of connect you. And then also, particularly for the east coast of the US but further afield, the Office of Ignatian Spirituality, run by the USA Jesuits, East Province, has a place where they will kind of hook you up. So I think all those places are good places to start.

[C]

Can you do spiritual direction?

[B]

Virtually, you can. You know, I do it with some of my directees. And actually, I will confess my current direct tour is in California. It's not ideal, but I would say it's about 90% as good. I have quite a few young Jesuits I won't break confidence, who are up at Fordham University. And sometimes if the weather's terrible, it's like a blizzard or something, we'll do it via Zoom or Google Meet or whatever it is. It's not ideal, but it's actually. It's certainly better than not meeting. Right. I would say it's 90% as good. Now, you can't do the, you know, you can't do the sacrament of reconciliation over that. But again, as we said, that's different. So, yeah, I think doing it virtually is fine. And also, you know, if you have a really good director that you love, that you met on a retreat, right. And you really kind of click with, and, you know, she's in Ohio and you're in California, I think that's fine.

[C]

You can bridge the distance.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's fine, actually.

[C]

Yeah. Now, one of the things that you both stressed in this conversation was the importance of finding someone who is qualified, who is trained. So what are some of the qualifications that we should look for in a good spiritual director?

[B]

Thank you for asking that and the famous quote of Teresa of Avila. So should I get someone who's wise or holy? Optimally, you'd want someone who's both. Right. But, you know, try to get someone who has actually been trained in a spiritual direction program. Right. And there are many of these across the country. There are big ones at Creighton University at Fairfield. There's lots and lots, and it doesn't particularly matter. You know, you can't know exactly how good each one is. But get someone who has some sort of certificate or degree in Spiritual direction. And they'll tell you if you ask. And, you know, try to get someone who's experienced. But sometimes it's not so bad to get someone who's just starting out. One of the reasons is, A, they have more openings. Right. B, they're pretty fresh in terms of having just come from their training. So it's not so bad to get someone new, but please, get someone trained. I've had experiences of going to people who are very holy but have no clue how to do direction. And it's pretty noticeable. They'll say things like, oh, yeah, you're doing great, or, oh, what do you think you should pray about now? Right. You can tell they're not sort of, you know, adept at it. So definitely get someone who's trained.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that's great. And how often should someone meet with their spiritual director? What's the cadence like?

[B]

Yeah, usually once a month. That's my kind of practice in my own. I go to director, but also people who come to see me. That's about right. If you're going through some crisis, usually it's a little bit more frequent, like maybe once a week, but once a month, Once every six weeks. I think longer than that. That the directee tends to forget what has happened. Right. Unless he or she writes it all down. And I have to say that I've done direction now for about, gosh, 30 years. Maybe the evil spirit does also work to make you not to see your.

[C]

Director if you're avoiding something in your spiritual life.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Or if you're embarrassed that you're not sort of keeping up with prayer. Right. You don't want to see your director. I've had that happen a couple times. Like, oh, I felt a little guilty because I haven't really been faithful to my prayer. So not having seen your director for a month or so is usually a sign something's going on. Either you're sort of resisting something or you're not praying.

[C]

So what would you say to someone who is resisting, who's embarrassed because they haven't done their spiritual homework but really should be in direction?

[B]

Yeah. I would say it's just the time for direction. Like, exactly the time you should go. Yeah, it's like going to a doctor when you're sick, you know, you shouldn't be embarrassed. I think people always feel better after direction. That doesn't mean your problems are solved, but you're usually sort of encouraged and invited to notice where God is. And once you see, oh, my gosh, God's been There all along, it's really consoling.

[C]

Some people might think that spiritual direction is a luxury of religious or people who can afford to take retreats often, but it's not. Right. I mean, it's very accessible financially.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I generally don't charge. Okay. I probably should. I think professionally you're supposed to. Now, people who make their living off of this, like a lay person who's doing it on his or her own, you know, you need to pay them. I don't think it's ruinously expensive and usually can work something out. But it's also not just for priests and members of religious orders. I mean, anyone who is a believer could benefit from it. And I hope one of the sort of outcomes of this podcast, which I love doing with you, Maggie, is that people will seek out spiritual directors. They're out there. And to not think that I have to be some mystic or saint to see a director you can be doing in any sort of state of life and you would be helped by it.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. I think final question. Let's say you start seeing a spiritual director and you realize that maybe they are not so wise or it isn't a good fit. Is there a way to respectfully part ways?

[B]

Yeah. Most directors at the beginning will say, let's try this out, see what you think. You know, it's on the direct tee. Do you think it fits? Right. I usually say this in the very first session and then also that you should feel free to move on. Sometimes it's time for new director. I've not had too many experiences where I've had bad directors, but I've had one or two. And I've had to say, hey, I think I'm gonna move on after this. Usually what I do, it's probably not the most effective way, is I'll wait for kind of a natural pause like the end of a semester or I'm moving or something like that. So, yeah, I think to be honest with the director and to say I'm not sure this is working out or to take a particular time, a pause, as I said, the end of a semester or the end of your movie to say, okay, let's kind of wrap this up. I have to say that's pretty rare, though. Usually most people find someone and they're happy with the person.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much, Jim, for answering all of these questions. I know our audience is going to appreciate it because we've received so many questions about spiritual direction and it's come up so naturally in the conversation this season.

[B]

My pleasure. And once again go out and find one and find someone who is wise and and if you can, holy well. Thanks again to Patty Gilgar for his wisdom. Thanks to Maggie, who joined me in the studio today. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is produced by Maggie Van Doren, Kevin Christopher Robles, Sebastian Gomes and myself. Noah Levinson and Adam Buckmuller engineer the show. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media@James MartinSJ and you can read a reflection that I wrote on this episode@amer America magazine.org or by clicking on the link in the show notes. Thanks so much and God bless you.