S E20: The Sports Thing Podcast w/Holmberg, Hellestrae And Nash - Episode 20 - 12-19-25

Summary

The Sports Thing Podcast w/Holmberg, Hellestrae & Nash

Episode 20 | December 19, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, John Holmberg, Dale Hellestrae, and Dave Nash dive deep into the latest NFL action, focusing on the wild finish of Thursday Night Football and the dire state of the Arizona Cardinals. The guys also hit on quarterback debates — especially Sam Darnold’s surprising run — talent evaluation in the NFL, franchise dysfunction, and take a humorous detour into theories about weather modification. The show wraps with a frank discussion about college coaching ambitions in the context of ASU’s Kenny Dillingham and the spectacle of modern boxing.

Tone: Energetic, sarcastic, rooted in sport fan passion, with candid insider views and classic barbershop banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Thursday Night Football & the “Harrison Mevis Game”

[01:00 – 06:30]

• Holmberg was at the Suns game with the Rams-Seahawks clash streaming on his phone, describing it as "one of the best sports nights of the year."
• Laments modern-day multi-view TV: "The greatest invention of all time is YouTube TV's multi view...and it is amazing how often all four games are showing me a commercial about diamonds for the holidays." (Holmberg, 02:36)
• Unpacks the Rams kicker Harrison Mevis missing a key kick despite being "number 92, fat kicker," and how no one talks about his impact.
  • "Kickers can't wear number 92. No, you just can't do it." (Holmberg, 03:31)
• Comedic riff on large numbers for large kickers and the Disney-movie vibes.

2. NFC West & Arizona Cardinals Dilemma

[04:46 – 14:00]

• Dale: "The Cardinals are like the freshmen team at the 6A level...Varsity is out there."
• Hard truth: Arizona is outclassed by divisional rivals (Rams, 49ers, Seahawks).
• Discussion on team quit factor, referencing U-Hauls in player parking lots signifying checked-out athletes.
• Nash presses: "Is there a zero percent chance Gannon (AZ coach) returns?"
  Holmberg: "I won't say zero, but it's low. That whole team quit on him."
• The crew discusses the difference between fighting and passively losing, and signals of disrespect for coaching staff.

3. Franchise Dysfunction (Cardinals, Bengals, Browns)

[14:13 – 23:00]

• Rotation of “would you rather be?” scenarios: Giants vs Cardinals, Titans vs Cardinals — always, the other team is more hopeful.
• Parallels drawn between Bengals and Cardinals — both stuck in management ineptitude, with Holmberg saying,
  "The Cardinals have hit on their quarterback with Palmer, Warner, but they still couldn’t get through." (Holmberg, 23:43)
• Dale discusses ownership culture:
  "Most corporations that are successful are successful at the top and it permeates through...When Marv Levy came in, he changed the perception of Buffalo." (Dale, 21:18)

4. "Losing Culture" & Coaching

[24:41 – 31:00]

• Hellestrae: The difference between 'losing and how you lose' — the Cards' recent games have shown they've just "given up."
• The importance of culture over just 'coaching' gets an extended debate, especially contrasting franchises who bounce back vs. those always in the same cycle (Cardinals, Browns, Bengals).

5. Quarterback Debate: Sam Darnold’s Redemption & Evaluating the QB Tier

[36:01 – 51:09]

• Heated and humorous argument about Sam Darnold’s place in NFL hierarchy:
  • Holmberg: "Sam Darnold in his last 39 starts is 30 and 9...He needs more credit than he's getting." (Holmberg, 37:03, 40:09)
  • Nash: "Let's not get out over our skis...he's not the second coming of Jesus." (Nash, 41:31)
  • Holmberg/ Dale push back harder: “If the league was only two years old, give me quarterbacks outside of Sam Darnold that are better than him.” (Holmberg, 45:44)
  • Nash counters with the context: team, defense, almost-pick-sixes, intangibles.
  • The segment is filled with sarcasm, laughter, and mock outrage, representing the classic sports talk "who’s elite/who’s not" banter.

Notable Exchange:

Holmberg: "Sam Darnold now is that. So? Go ahead and tell me who's… you keep taking Lamar Jackson over the last two years. His numbers this year are terrible." [49:12]
Nash: "I go back to the 80/20 rule — he's not a 20 percenter." [49:32]

6. NFL Talent Evaluation & Scouting

[51:33 – 59:00]

• On hidden gems like Steelers’ Dylan Cook: teams missing on late-round or practice squad talent.

• Dale: "As a player, you can tell within about 10 plays whether a guy has a chance or not." [53:17]

• Coaches/ scouts get called out for short-sightedness, trusting draft position over actual game tape, and being swayed by "draft capital."

  • Nash (humor): "Football coaches are the dumbest people on the planet." [54:28]

• Argument: Trade picks for proven NFL talent over risky college players.

7. Playoff Trust: Who Do You Believe In?

[61:27 – 72:46]

• Roundtable on which playoff hopefuls are most trustworthy:
  • Eagles vs Lions: Slight lean to Lions despite “something’s not right” in Philly.
  • Texans vs Jags: Texans get the edge based on defense.
  • Bills vs Patriots; Bears vs Packers: Nuanced back-and-forth, noting injuries, home field, and even the impact of wind in Chicago.
• Steelers vs Ravens:
  • Nash leans Ravens on history and trust, Holmberg argues for present performance.
  • "Trust is history." – Nash
• Discussion of NFC North and the impact of Soldier Field, with tongue-in-cheek comments about the Bears possibly moving to Indiana.

8. College Football: Kenny Dillingham, Ambition & Loyalty

[74:33 – 85:37]

• Holmberg raises the question: Should ASU’s Kenny Dillingham leave for “the big job” if Michigan (or another powerhouse) comes calling?
• Dale: “Of course he has to consider it...use it to his advantage to get things.” [76:17]
• Nash (on staying): "He can become a legend here...if he keeps doing the job, he’ll have his pick of jobs as they come in the future." [78:44]
• Compelling talk about local loyalty vs. professional ambition and the unforgiving nature of coaching jobs.

9. Boxing, Jake Paul, & the State of the Sport

[87:00 – 92:24]

• Briefly, the podcast bemoans the carnival atmosphere around Jake Paul's fights and contrasts him to “serious” boxers like Bud Crawford.
• Holmberg: “Jake Paul comes off Instagram and Twitter...he’s PT Barnum at its best.” [87:19]
• Dale: "In the 70s and 80s, I liked boxing...then Tyson came along and I got tired of paying 50 bucks for 35 seconds." [89:02]
• Candid disappointment over spectacle outweighing sport.

10. Five Minutes with a Madman: Conspiracy Edition

[94:47 – End]

• Nash riffs on weather modification:
  "The government can make it rain when they want...they can modify the weather and I think it got out of hand." [95:15]

• Holmberg presses for evidence; Dale jokes about Nash’s delivery and how conspiracies have become part of sports lore.

• The trio ends with jabs about vaccinations, societal trust, and how “somewhere in the middle lives the truth.” [99:43]

• Show closes with plugs for their side projects and a promise for more irreverent, insightful sports talk.

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Notable Quotes/Moments with Timestamps

• “Kickers can't wear number 92. No, you just can't do it.” – Holmberg [03:31]
• “The Cardinals are like the freshmen team at the 6A level in high school.” – Hellestrae [04:46]
• “The only time he runs is away from the weight room... right to the cafeteria.” – Holmberg [04:28]
• “When Marv Levy came in, he changed the perception of what we thought of ourselves.” – Hellestrae [21:18]
• “Sam Darnold in his last 39 starts is 30 and 9...he needs more credit than he’s getting.” – Holmberg [37:03]
• “If the league was only two years old, give me quarterbacks outside of Sam Darnold that are better than him.” – Holmberg [45:44]
• “Football coaches are the dumbest people on the planet.” – Nash [54:28]
• “As a player, you can tell within about 10 plays whether a guy has a chance or not.” – Hellestrae [53:17]
• “Of course he has to consider it [leaving for Michigan]...use it to his advantage to get things.” – Hellestrae [76:17]
• “Jake Paul comes off Instagram and Twitter...he’s PT Barnum at its best.” – Holmberg [87:19]
• “The government can make it rain when they want...they can modify the weather and I think it got out of hand.” – Nash [95:15]
• “Somewhere in the middle lives the truth.” – Holmberg [99:43]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:00 – 06:30] Thursday Football breakdown; TV watching innovations
• [04:46 – 14:00] Cardinals/NFC West woes; U-Haul quit theory; Coaching respect
• [14:13 – 23:00] Franchise dysfunction; Ownership/management rants
• [24:41 – 31:00] Coaching, quitting, and organizational culture
• [36:01 – 51:09] Quarterback merits: The Sam Darnold war
• [51:33 – 59:00] Talent evaluation, scouting hits and whiffs
• [61:27 – 72:46] Playoff trust: rapid-fire debates on NFL matchups
• [74:33 – 85:37] College coaching ambition/loyalty: Dillingham & ASU
• [87:00 – 92:24] Boxing’s soul: Jake Paul, spectacle vs. sportsmanship
• [94:47 – End] Five Minutes with a Madman: Conspiracy theories & closing banter

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Final Thought

This episode was a quintessential “Sports Thing” podcast: rapid-fire, funny, insightful, sometimes ridiculous, but always honest about the joy and pain of sports fandom. Even for the uninitiated, the blend of local Arizona focus and universal sports themes makes it a sharp, enjoyable ride.

Transcript

[John Holmberg]

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[John Holmberg]

And we're off. Here we go. All right, everybody, it's time once again for the sports thing, a John Holmberg podcast with regular guest Dale Hellestra and others. Today's others again. Dave Nash is here and Dale's a three time world champion. Dave is a three time used to be this, used to be that, used to be this and now just a successful man in anything he puts his mind to. I of course am Jon Holberg of 98 KUPD and we're ready to go with the podcast that we did. We usually do these on Thursday. We're doing it on Friday and it's a because I think we watched the game of the year in football last night, which is unreal considering the first week of the season. That Ravens Bills game seemed like it was going to be tough to beat, right? There's been a couple in between. I've never, I was at, I was at the Phoenix Suns game last night watching the football game on my phone. And keep in mind the Suns game was spectacular.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes, it was very competitive all throughout.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, I did a multi view personal like a live like there's the game on the court and here's the game on my phone and we had people at our section watching my phone and cheering it. It was almost like it was choreographed. Suns timeout. The football game would go. Football game would stop. The Suns in Golden State were back at it. It was an outstanding sports Night. I call last night's game the Harrison Mavis game.

[Dale Hellestra]

Real quick, before we get into that, have you. I've done this some Saturdays when there's 12 college games on. And I've literally just went down the list and there are times when all 12 games are in commercial.

[Dave Nash]

It's unbelievable.

[John Holmberg]

Hard to do. What's nuts about it is too, is the. The greatest invention of all time is YouTube TV's multi view.

[Dale Hellestra]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

That you can put because nobody remember. Good Lord, this is going to age us all. But when we were kids, you watched TV. It was like a 13 or 20 inch television in the main room.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes. That was a big one.

[John Holmberg]

And that was. We had a 27 inch TV. People actually came over to look at it like we had moon rocks. And I'm like, there's a 27 inch console and you get like a 36. The richest family in the world. I have a 90 inch television, which means we have four TVs inside that TV. I can watch four different games at once and all I have to do is flip for sound.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right?

[John Holmberg]

And it is amazing how often all four games are showing me a commercial about diamonds for the holidays or.

[Dale Hellestra]

It's crazy.

[John Holmberg]

It's crazy. But last night, the Harrison Mevis game, as I like to call it. Nobody's talking about it because of all the magic that happened around the game. But here's number 92, the kicker for the Rams. Goes out there and boots that wicked miss at the end. And everybody's like, oh, he's the goat of. He wins the game.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Regulation's over and nobody will talk about it. And my beef with this and Dale, you're a special team superstar kickers can't wear number 92. No, you just can't do it.

[Dale Hellestra]

Can't be that big.

[John Holmberg]

He's fat.

[Dave Nash]

Yes.

[Dale Hellestra]

I mean, he looks like an offensive lineman.

[John Holmberg]

Well, because of the number, if he was numbered one or two, you'd be like, oh, he's just a fat kicker.

[Dale Hellestra]

In college, you see a 0 and he's 320 pounds, plays nose tackle.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

It's just your mind doesn't realize it doesn't work.

[Dave Nash]

His boyhood idol was Lou Groza. Yes.

[John Holmberg]

He's that old. His boyhood idol was Lou groza. This guy's 28 years old.

[Dave Nash]

Might be facetious.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. But it was an insanely annoying thing to see a fat number 92. It looked like a bad Disney movie where it was like the kid from left field and they're like, you and the crowd, you Have a jersey on

[Dale Hellestra]

get in there that look like he's seen a weight room ever seen every buffet.

[John Holmberg]

The only time he runs is away from the weight room and he's. Yeah, and it's right to the cafeteria. But nobody's talking about it because it ended in such a spectacular fashion. Kicker ruined the game last night and you don't put this pressure on him. Changed the entire landscape of the NFC playoff game.

[Dale Hellestra]

It, sir. It certainly did. The seeding and all those things. And mind you, it was kind of a blowout there in the third quarter and then turned into a wonderful game. Remember, this was on a Thursday night. Yeah, a Thursday night. They're going into overtime with two really, really good football teams. And I was telling you guys before we came on the air, unfortunately our local team here, the Arizona Cardinals, play in that same division. And it's almost like the Cardinals are freshmen team at the 6A level in high school. And those are the varsity teams.

[Dave Nash]

You're saying the Cardinals are out of it.

[John Holmberg]

Are they mathematically eliminated from next year yet?

[Dave Nash]

Right from next year. That's a good.

[Dale Hellestra]

Not even close. Those are two really good football teams. You got. San Francisco's the third who's had more injury games lost in the Cardinals. And they're going to have.

[Dave Nash]

They play.

[John Holmberg]

Do they play Seattle or they play. Well, they play each other again. And that is for the division again because now with 10 wins, San Francisco snuck right back into this thing. The loss by the rams gives them 11 head to head. Flips that over where the Rams are now the one seed and now maybe bouncing around with seven. It's insane. One kick. One kick.

[Dale Hellestra]

You also could go from one to the fifth seed or the sixth seed.

[John Holmberg]

Yep. And then you got to play the sixth seed next week. We are in December football. Back to what you're saying. There are franchises that have hope and franchises that don't. And the Cardinals have less hope than any other. Even the Browns have a little bit. Maybe Shador something. We still have Myles Garrett, the Bengals, even though there's something going on there with Joe Burrow, that he is handling this really well, but he is screaming from the island, get me out of here. There's no hope in Cincinnati outside of the talent they've got. And Joe Burrow, seeing like this is all we're going to have for a while. But there's still more than the Arizona Cardinals. The Titans still have hope.

[Dave Nash]

Has Joe Burrow like the desert? Has he ever been out here?

[John Holmberg]

Well, there's going to be some phone calls Being made the Raiders and the Cardinals. And I think the Raiders are harder to say there's no hope in Vegas because A, it's Vegas, B, it's that logo will never be hopeless.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

But the Cardinals are absolutely done.

[Dale Hellestra]

I heard somebody do an exercise the other day. It might have been Colin Cowherd. I forget who it was. But they were saying, who would you rather be? No, would you rather be the New York Giants or the Arizona Cardinals?

[John Holmberg]

Oh, the Giants. It's not even close.

[Dale Hellestra]

Who'd you rather be, the Tennessee Titans or the Arizona Cardinals?

[John Holmberg]

Not even close.

[Dale Hellestra]

You know, and it's like how going into this season for the Cardinals there was hope.

[John Holmberg]

All of us.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Had them flirting with the West.

[Dave Nash]

All right, so maybe they're closer than you think. It's just they need to solidify their leadership position. The quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

Nope. Because they're going to have to get rid of an entire coaching staff because you just watched that whole team quit on Jonathan Gannon over the last three weeks. Like they just don't play. Their U Hauls are not only packed, they're already wherever they need to be. They fly in for the game.

[Dave Nash]

So you think there is a zero percent chance he'll be back?

[John Holmberg]

I know I won't say zero, but it's low. I mean this was the. I mean again we went into the season, the three of us saying, you know, yes, they were competitive in games they shouldn't have been competitive in and started the season a little bit like that. That Colts game and a couple things. When the Colts were red hot, Cardinals played them right to the end.

[Dale Hellestra]

Seven straight one score games.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And.

[John Holmberg]

And you're like almost almost. But the almost felt different this year than it did last year. It felt like they did the almost to themsel. Right.

[Dave Nash]

Aren't they. What's their number? Like two and seven and one score games.

[John Holmberg]

So they're not good at one and

[Dale Hellestra]

I think they're all.

[John Holmberg]

And seven one this year.

[Dale Hellestra]

This year.

[John Holmberg]

Last year they were pretty good.

[Dave Nash]

The point is just by mathematically next year they will have a really good chance to turn that.

[John Holmberg]

Well if I don't know they will.

[Dale Hellestra]

Offensive line is playing really bad. Defensive lines not. Not existent. You're right. They quit.

[John Holmberg]

They quit. So let me 100% quit.

[Dave Nash]

Talk to you on that. Being in a locker room for 17 years in the NFL after that start where they gave away the most egregious giveaway to the Titans.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[Dave Nash]

When does the point come where you go and you played with the Bills first year what 2 and 2 and 14. When does the point come where you go? You know this. We're just. We're just. We're just playing out straight. And is that what's happened to them?

[Dale Hellestra]

What happens is it happens during the week. You lack focus. You don't practice, you don't study. You don't do those things. You show up, you go through the motions. As I think I've told both of you, before the last game my rookie year, I showed up to the players parking lot, and there were no less than seven U Hauls trucks. That means that players had already packed everything up and have the. The nerve to drive their U Haul to the game.

[John Holmberg]

But how much of that is showing disrespect to the current leadership? Because I know, look, you got to remember, most of these guys are in their 20s. They don't know how to confront a manager. They don't know how to. They'll just either yell at them or they'll do something passive aggressive. And I'm seeing that with Joe Burrow, who just turned 30, started to contemplate his life because it's like, I'm 30 now, as, what if my future look like? I think a lot of these guys like U Haul guys. We've talked about this a couple of times, and it dawned on me. It's like, how little of it is, oh, I'm just done, and how much of it is a statement and whatever. For whatever reason, you NFL guys can't just say what you mean. It's gotta be a statement. It's gotta be some sort of metaphor that we have to read between the lines. No. Well, it's. Before that you were there. The U Hauls were statements. They were. They were a statement to Ralph and the gang in Buffalo and whoever your coach was to go, I don't respect anything that's happening here to the point where I'm gonna show you that. And there's tons of that. And I know you've been on bad teams, but where you're like, I don't respect the coach, so I'm not. I'm not putting in 100.

[Dale Hellestra]

And here's the other thing that's come out lately with the Cardinals. There have been a few guys who come out in support of Jonathan Gannon. He's a good coach. It's not the coach's fault. It's, you know, we still work hard, blah, blah, blah. But the proof is that is attitude on the field. And if I have a franchise that's going to win three, if we're lucky to beat Atlanta on Sunday. Maybe four. Maybe four games. I'm not following the orders of the players that are on my team. The Raiders did that when a couple of players came and say, we want Antonio Pierce back. Well, why? Because you're comfortable. Because you don't have to do things the hard way.

[John Holmberg]

Because it was your friend. Like they were standing up for their buddy.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes. And so again, there's losing and then there's the way you lose.

[John Holmberg]

Yes.

[Dale Hellestra]

And the last few games, the Cardinals, the way they've lost, looks like they, they've given up.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

And they're not listening to me.

[John Holmberg]

It's Jonathan Gannon shows up twice in every game. First to show you how bad the practices were, because that's why it's always 17 nothing in the first five minutes. And then the spirit that he gives those guys to at least hang on with a little dignity. Because that game last week was one of three games where I've watched him and I turned the game on and I'm like, there's 13 minutes left in the first quarter and it's 10 to nothing.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

How did that happen? And the team that's up 10 has the ball again.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

How is this? What is going on? And that's just that to me, speaks to sloppy practice. No attention to detail. No like, message to the team going, come on, pride, pride, pride. But somewhere after they start getting their asses kicked, they show up to at least make it respectable. 40 to 20 is not respectable. But when you spot them 17, it's

[Dave Nash]

harder to be prepared when you're packing your U Haul.

[John Holmberg]

That is true.

[Dave Nash]

You can't do that.

[John Holmberg]

That is true. When you've got a lot of packing and your wife's probably nagging your mind, don't bring that in.

[Dale Hellestra]

I've never had that question asked before. Were the players sending the coaches a message? Because I had most of my stuff

[John Holmberg]

packed up and that was a message.

[Dale Hellestra]

But I. But I didn't have the nerve to bring you U Haul to the game. I mean, it might have been ready,

[John Holmberg]

but if you had a box with like packed. Look, I had trouble here in my work for a while with some contract stuff and it got to last minute and my message, I packed up my office and left it in moving boxes.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And I had had discussions about this has to happen, this has to happen. But then I'm like, you know what if they're not going to act, they're going to see something else.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And I got action immediately. Like, why did you pack Your office.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah, but, John, the thing is, you're. You're the highest rated program in the city. Not of all time, but in the city. City. Let's not agree.

[John Holmberg]

To disagree. To disagree. Thank you.

[Dale Hellestra]

It's like giving Dave a comment on the golf course. Hey, nice drive. I know.

[John Holmberg]

He knows. That was a nice drive.

[Dale Hellestra]

But.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, so you can't be making fun of my golf course.

[John Holmberg]

I don't.

[Dave Nash]

Thank you.

[John Holmberg]

I think it's great you say that,

[Dale Hellestra]

but if you're 2 and 13, you're not sending any message. You're not going to be around anyway. They're looking to replace you, but they don't.

[John Holmberg]

Do players see that? Because I've seen it too often now in my 53 years of love in sports, that at the end of the year, somewhere in the end of November, there's always a guy packing a box or saying something to the media that's like, what did that mean? Joe Burrow just did it.

[Dave Nash]

And I.

[John Holmberg]

And I admire how he's doing it. Instead of. Because you can't just, in this day and age, go, I want out.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And he also knows, contractually, he's. He's telling his teammates who he's close with that like, I don't want to play with you anymore. Like this, this franchise. Cincinnati's a bad franchise.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And Joe Burrow is a guy who. Who just. Look, this is the same franchise. We're just. 10 years ago, Carson Palmer said, I'm going to retire if they want me back. Either retire, yes, I'm going to quit, or you get rid of me. And they forced the hand. I think Joe Burrow's trying not to be that guy.

[Dave Nash]

He's close being that guy, but not out loud.

[John Holmberg]

I think he's handling it well, basically. And I also think it's all contemplation of his birthday being 30 or 29, whatever he is.

[Dave Nash]

It's not even about this. The fact that he said, hey, I want my guys back. I want Chase.

[John Holmberg]

Well, Trey Hendrickson and Chase, I want T. Higgins back.

[Dave Nash]

I want. I want everyone back. And, oh, wait a minute. I'm making the most salary. I'm sucking up all the salary. I don't care. I want them back. And then they bring them all back, and then it's like, you know what? I'm not having any fun because I didn't leave you enough money to fill up the rest of the team.

[John Holmberg]

But that's the business of football, is the quarterback's going to make 60 million. They make room for that. You have a salary cap where good teams with franchise quarterbacks have to pay 55, 60 million for their quarterback. The Bengals are the only ones that hit it out of the yard with the new modern NFL of get that five year window of a rookie quarterback deal and get in the Super Bowl.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And they did it. But what you also had was a number one pick in Chase, a number one pick in Higgins. You had Hendrickson, you had Jesse Bates, you had Logan, you. I don't go down the list of guys they've gotten. They could not pay anyone because they were all rookies at the same time. If you look at what the Bengals did in 21, whenever they went to the super bowl, they didn't have a salary cap. They didn't have any. They weren't anywhere near it. Everyone was on rookie deals and they lost the game. And then the Bills came due and they can't afford it anymore and they paid the wrong guys because paying T. Higgins was a mistake. And also if Joe Burrow saying, hey, I want this guy and I want this guy, he's got to look back and go, they didn't even listen to me. Trey Hendrickson signed two days before the season started. If I'm so important to scream what I want, I get, why did they drag this out with him on a defense that was terrible last year?

[Dale Hellestra]

Here's the thing that I look at the Bengals and I look at the Cardinals and there's so many similarities. They pop their head up once every decade or so and then all of a sudden the Bills come due and they don't have the amount of money to give these huge bonuses so you can spread money out over five years and, and things like that.

[John Holmberg]

They have the money. Do they have the guy in charge that knows how to manipulate it? Because that's what I see with the Cardinals.

[Dave Nash]

You're right.

[John Holmberg]

The bonuses, maybe it's Bidwell, but it's the bonuses. Don't get thrown around the incentive packages. Dancing around with, can we take some from your contract to keep this guy?

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

That never happens here. No, it's all or nothing. And the bad franchises do that. The Browns are in the midst of. They're going to start DeSean Watson next year. They're in the midst of holding on to contracts that.

[Dale Hellestra]

But listen to the teams we're talking about.

[John Holmberg]

Exactly.

[Dale Hellestra]

The, the Browns, the Cardinals, the Bengals. Yeah. I mean, that's the scourge of the NFL.

[Dave Nash]

I think the Cincinnati Bengals fans out there are offended that you put them in the same mix as the Cardinals.

[John Holmberg]

Well then they need a mirror because

[Dave Nash]

listen, it wasn't too long ago before Joe Burrow they had the Red Rifle, what's his name?

[John Holmberg]

Andy Dalton.

[Dave Nash]

Andy Dalton. And you know, in a what a seven year stretch, they had a winning record every year but one and won more than 10 games in five of

[John Holmberg]

those zero playoff wins that run.

[Dave Nash]

They were in the playoffs.

[John Holmberg]

True.

[Dave Nash]

Five years in a row.

[John Holmberg]

Marvin Lewis was.07 in playoff games with teams.

[Dave Nash]

Harder getting rid of him after five years than Pittsburgh is getting rid of Tomlin.

[John Holmberg]

The argument in Pittsburgh 25. The argument in Pittsburgh is Tomlin is nothing more than Marvin Lewis. But I'm going to tell you this, and I told Dale this at my house last Sunday. I'm going to write a beautiful love letter to the former offensive coordinator of the Pittsburgh Steelers, Matt Canada, who I was violently rough on on Sundays and Mondays and Tuesdays in my head the entire time. I wished the worst things on him, his family and his pets. I watched Kenny Pickett play football for the Raiders Sunday. 15 of 25 for 64 yards. And it looked like he was throwing a brick of Velveeta cheese around like he'd never touched a football in his Life. We won 10 games with that guy. Yeah, I don't know how it happened. He had a 2.5 yards per average

[Dave Nash]

per attempt that Kenny Pickett or is that the Raiders?

[John Holmberg]

Kenny Pickett couldn't throw the ball five yards for the Steelers. We won 10 games. We were so mad at Tomlin. But look, the Steelers struck out. They have not had a. They have not renewed a rookie first round draft pick since T.J. watt. We've lost every first round pick.

[Dale Hellestra]

Is that because you wanted to lose them or because just wasn't worth paying them or. They underperformed.

[John Holmberg]

George Pickens got traded because we weren't going to deal with them. Yeah, you got Terrell Edmonds, Najee Harris. All of them underperformed what would be a giant contract coming up and nobody paid him. So George Pickens is going to get numbers. I still think the Steelers made the right move getting something for him and not giving him 40 million bucks.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Which I think the Cowboys are going to franchise him and end up in that mess too. But you look at that kind of stuff and yes, Mike Tomlin has that same knock that Marvin Lewis had saved for the first 10 years when he went to two Super Bowls. And he's capable. Marvin Lewis proved he wasn't over that time. The Bengals definitely are. I would rather be the Bengals than the Cardinals if I'm a fan. You think, well, just because of competitive nature. But they don't. Same results and same problems. We could have had this. This. We could time machine. And I don't want to get into that again, not after last week.

[Dave Nash]

Please don't.

[John Holmberg]

But the. We could time machine this conversation and plop it down in 1990, and it would be the same thing. The Browns, the Bengals, and the Cardinals. Although the Browns weren't there yet. So let's go to 97, 98. But still, these are franchises that, no matter what the timeframe is, you're very. Even if they're good, you're like, yeah, but the Bengals are good this year. Like you said, they bob above water just for a second, like, hey, we're back.

[Dale Hellestra]

And then, boom.

[John Holmberg]

They can't keep it up. The Cardinals are. I just don't understand how you can own a franchise, have your name attached to it for 100 years and not be as pissed off as the fans are. And it doesn't feel like this franchise has that.

[Dale Hellestra]

And here's when I look back to when Little Bidwell took over for old man Bidwell. Yeah. I thought Little Bidwell had such an ego on him that he would want to win at all costs, because I've envisioned him as a guy who wanted to walk into Ocean Club or walk into a nice steakhouse, and people go, michael.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

Can I get you a beer?

[John Holmberg]

Or have a. Have a steakhouse named Bidwell's. That people don't throw rocks at you when you try to go in.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right. But instead it's just like, more the same. And he's leaving. He's leaving Cardinal games to go to Suns games. And it's ridiculous.

[John Holmberg]

It's a franchise that from the top down, it's just reflective of the ownership and everything.

[Dale Hellestra]

Let me tell you, because I saw it happen in Buffalo. That's what's so hard. You know, any. Most corporations that are successful are successful at the top and just permeates through. I was in buffalo. We were 2 and 14. My rookie year. My last year, we went to the AFC Championship game. Two things happened. Marv Levy came in, and he changed the perception of what we thought of ourselves and what the city thought of us. And then Jim Kelly came.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

And. And then we started winning. And again, you can. You can say that. A love blues. You go to four state Super Bowls, I tip my cap to you.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

Troy Ikness sitting here, he'd say that's more impressive than us winning three out of four.

[John Holmberg]

No, it's not going to being too nice to the opponent, but.

[Dale Hellestra]

But he, he was able to change Ralph Wilson's image and the way Ralph Wilson thought about his Buffalo. He lived in Detroit. He'd fly in on Sundays for the game, fly back to Detroit.

[Dave Nash]

That, that doesn't say anything about Buffalo. When you'd rather live in Detroit than somewhere else, that somewhere else is a problem.

[John Holmberg]

Keep in mind, when they drafted Jim Kelly, he said, no, I'll play in this new league for a couple years for the Houston Gamblers. And it was money based, but it was also out loud, I'm not playing in Buffalo.

[Dale Hellestra]

I don't want to play in Buffalo. When I got drafted, it was the fourth round, I got drafted and they called me. Remember, they only televised the first round back then. So you didn't know where they were.

[Progressive Commercial Announcer]

Right.

[Dale Hellestra]

They call and they say that so and so from the Buffalo Bills. Do you have any problem playing for us?

[John Holmberg]

They asked you that?

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes. They're in the fourth round because Jim Kelly, there's a guy named Tom Cousino, another first round pick who never reported and all that. And I literally my question to them was, what round are we in if they just said we're late? Second, I just said, you know what? I don't, I don't want to play

[John Holmberg]

in Buffalo the fourth round. You're thinking maybe the only team likes me here. Yeah, yeah, that's, it's, it's crazy. But that. And again, Buffalo went through another 15 or 16 years of like, oh, here we go again.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And they're relevant again. But again, hit on quarterback and you got it. Steelers missed on quarterback and they're struggling, but they're still winning games. The Cardinals have, have hit on their quarterback, but Carson Palmer was a hit, Kurt Warner was a hit, and they still couldn't get through.

[Dale Hellestra]

What do those two have in common?

[John Holmberg]

Well, it came from somewhere else and in their 30s. That's very true. But then Kyler Murray at first, you know, the 10 win team, they just. That Rams game in the playoffs where he just went absolutely Chernobyl.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

He never recovered.

[Dale Hellestra]

Well, remember that if you remember that season, it was just brought up to me recently because I forgot about it. They were like 11 and 1.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. 7 and oh, I thought.

[Dale Hellestra]

And then Hopkins went down.

[John Holmberg]

Yes. And they never have enough.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right?

[John Holmberg]

They never have enough. I mean, look at, look at right now December football. I'm looking because I follow the Steelers so close. It's a completely different roster than it was in September.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

I mean, absolutely different roster. There's so many teams right now that are just scrambling to get because of injuries or whatever. You got to put people out there, and you got to be a team that. I don't even see the Cardinals doing that with what they've got as far as picking guys up off the couch. And I mean, Indianapolis is running Philip Rivers out there, and the Cardinals are still like, well, we're comfortable with why

[Dale Hellestra]

we're just going to go back to work. Think about this. The 49ers have lost more starter games to injury than the Arizona Cardinals. Yeah. And they're sitting there. 10 wins.

[John Holmberg]

10 wins.

[Dale Hellestra]

They're going to make the playoffs. It doesn't matter what. See, they're going to be. And they've lost. They've lost. Joe the Bosa, whichever one's in San Francisco. Fred Warner, who the best players. Purdy missed seven games.

[John Holmberg]

McCaffrey, you lost the receivers. You've had everybody go down at one point or another. The lines have been decimated. And here they are sitting at 10, and everybody's like, oh, it's coaching. It's coaching. No, it's culture. And you talk about this. Dave, you said, like, the culture is winning. The Cardinals culture is ineptitude. It's not even losing. It's losing. Plus, it is. It's just hard to imagine continuing to give that team your attention or money. And they act like they earn that every year.

[Dave Nash]

I listen to you guys thinking, all right, so you're telling everyone that water is wet, sky is blue.

[John Holmberg]

You're not wrong. You're not wrong. Liberace had a wife. We all know.

[Dave Nash]

Come on. I mean, I do know this. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

[John Holmberg]

It is too easy. But it's getting to the point where you're like, you just want to kill all the fish.

[Dale Hellestra]

I do know this. My brother, after 38 years, is canceling season tickets, not renewing. And he went to renew, and the website was down because all the money was due on, I think the 15th.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And they didn't have enough money for the website.

[Dale Hellestra]

The website. I think so many people were canceling.

[John Holmberg]

My friend I golfed with yesterday said, first time since 94, I'm not going to have season tickets next year. I mean, why would you.

[Dale Hellestra]

Because they. They increased ticket prices 40% for this.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And.

[John Holmberg]

And, and, and show you no hope.

[Dale Hellestra]

No.

[John Holmberg]

And keep in mind, they're going to win four or five games and be the ninth or 10th pick. That's the Josh Rosen section of the draft where they.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah. What kind of Timing is that. Let's see. We're off to one of our worst years in the history of worst years. Let's double our prices. Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

And on top of having some, some aspiration coming in, some expectations going in

[John Holmberg]

the season and real serious dudes in the positions you want them in. Austin Fort is a good general manager, I'm convinced of that. I think his hands are tied by the franchise. I think Jonathan Gannon is going to take a couple of years to be a coordinator again and he's going to go coach somebody else and you're going to be like, wow, dude. And people say, oh, he figured it out.

[Dale Hellestra]

He needs to pick a defensive lineman doesn't pull a calf.

[John Holmberg]

He's what's going on with that guy's picks. And again, I don't know, maybe it's the weather. Maybe it's just. It's too hot here and everybody cramps up and their calves go.

[Dale Hellestra]

But it is.

[John Holmberg]

It is hard to sit through and watch. And Dave's right. This is. This is the dead horse is just getting annihilated.

[Dave Nash]

Wow.

[John Holmberg]

Water's wet. Yeah, he's not wrong, but it's just hard to not. How are we saying the water's wet and then, you know, Bidwell comes out covered in sand. How's he dry still? Like, I don't understand why this city won't revolt. And they always say they need to run that owner out on a rail. They never talk about him. They like I saw it the other day when they were talking about owners in football and I don't remember who said it was on first take or something like he needs to be. They need that franchise. Mike Brown. It was the Bengals. How that city hasn't run him out, I don't know. They don't even talk about Michael Bidwell. They're irrelevant on sports talk shows. They're that always gone. They're never in the discussion. And it's. And it's fun to sit back as a non fan and go, well, they're just never going to be a thing.

[Dave Nash]

Maybe that's why he left that game early one time. Maybe there's fans were yelling at that.

[John Holmberg]

I would hope so. You know what?

[Dave Nash]

I got to get to that sun's game. Get. Get under there and start drinking with all those hot hookers.

[John Holmberg]

Let me also hear that there's. Maybe let's also think to ourselves that I go to another public event and show my face there and nobody booed him. Nobody cares. That's worse than being hated.

[Dale Hellestra]

Is that the is the worst thing a sports team.

[John Holmberg]

There's no emotion in apathy. There's none. People hate you.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

That means that they're passionate. They see you and go, ugh.

[Dale Hellestra]

People still pay $400 for today to go see the Cowboys play. And they hate them.

[John Holmberg]

And they hate them because there's feelings there. With the Cardinals, there's no feelings.

[Dave Nash]

Like, I don't understand why anyone hates Jerry Jones. I think he's done a really good job.

[John Holmberg]

Well, I think this year he does. This year is gonna. Gonna test him because in the end, they've got a lot of money they're gonna spend in the right or wrong places, but it's in. Anyway, so we get back to last night's game, which was the Rams Seahawks, which I loved because like you said, Thursday night games are usually conkers.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And also they're usually terrible for a road team. Seattle's not an easy trip from la. People think that's a. That's three and a half hours. Like, it's a long flight and like, that's Thursday night. Road teams usually get trounced.

[Dale Hellestra]

Well, and remember, the Rams flight was delayed by a couple hours.

[John Holmberg]

Because of the wind.

[Dale Hellestra]

No, because of plane failure.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, it was?

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

They literally had to get off the plane, go find another plane. They sent the players ahead.

[John Holmberg]

I didn't know that.

[Dave Nash]

You know, have you ever been on a plane that. That happens? And everyone's like, oh, I. You know, they're all mad. I'm like, hey, I'm mad at all. Let's get the hell off this plane.

[Dale Hellestra]

I'm.

[Dave Nash]

I'm thankful that we're not going on this.

[John Holmberg]

We had a five hour delay once from here, Phoenix to Vegas. Oh, five hours. Because the plane broke and we got on the plane. They're like, our plane is broken. And people like, oh, come on. I'm like, let them fix the damn plane. I'm not getting on the one. We're like, it's broken. You still want to get her up in the air?

[Dale Hellestra]

No, let's take a chance.

[Dave Nash]

I would have been saying, all right, let's get off this one. Give me another one. Let's buy a new one.

[John Holmberg]

They lost their minds. We go back to the gate.

[Dale Hellestra]

Five hours.

[John Holmberg]

Well, we've got to get another plane to fly in. The closest one we can divert is Indianapolis and it's just leaving now. So if you guys want, we have. It's going to take less time to drive. I'm like, we could drive the plane. That doesn't work. If you're interested.

[Dave Nash]

I'd rather drive the plane. At least I'm not falling out of the air.

[John Holmberg]

But like, does some idiot in the airport think that American Airlines is going to turn and go, this guy's pretty pissed off. Let's just, let's knee jerk something here and just throw the.

[Dave Nash]

And when it crashes, we'll say, sorry,

[John Holmberg]

let's throw this bird up there. So this guy stops yelling. Just. It's insane when they say something's broken. All four getting off. I have no problem with that. Yeah, I had read about the Washington weather. That 146 mile an hour winds and stuff nearby. Yeah, hurricane force winds were blowing around there.

[Dale Hellestra]

That whatever river.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, the atmospheric river. Yeah, it was insane. So I'm like, oh, the rams are mean.

[Dave Nash]

The jet stream.

[John Holmberg]

No, the atmospheric river.

[Dale Hellestra]

It's flooding up there.

[John Holmberg]

It's a flood in the sky.

[Dale Hellestra]

Watch the weather.

[John Holmberg]

Have you not seen.

[Dale Hellestra]

Oh boy.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, here we go. What are we doing?

[Dave Nash]

Well, government, we are affect. We are. We, we do control the weather. So that's. They, they're doing it up there now. Go get yourself.

[John Holmberg]

Don't argue with Nash. Because I'd never heard of an atmospheric river until about three years ago now. It happens all the time.

[Dale Hellestra]

How about, how about out here? The, the, the. Not the monsoons. The baboons. The haboobs. Haboobs.

[John Holmberg]

Well, that was just fun words.

[Dale Hellestra]

I grew up here.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, we never called them that.

[Dale Hellestra]

They were dust storms.

[John Holmberg]

Dust storms. We had dust storms and we couldn't practice in baseball for like 35 minutes. And then we'd slush around in mud for a while. Yeah, yeah, the dust storms turned into haboobs. And that's just because somebody found out. Hey, you know what they call these over here in the Sahara? You can do it too. It's the only other place that was

[Dave Nash]

just a way to get the word boob.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, I like boob too. Yeah, I think that, I think it's. I think somebody laughed when they saw it. So I'm going to call it that in the news tonight. And it stuck. But yeah, the atmospheric rivers and all that stuff.

[Dave Nash]

Who doesn't want to get hit in the face with a haboob?

[John Holmberg]

Put my face right between those. Get me two haboobs coming at me at once and I'm just going to lay down and enjoy it. The. Yeah, the. But the flight out on a Thursday. I thought the rams are done. There's bad weather. I didn't know they got delayed for

[Dale Hellestra]

that reason, like two, three hours.

[John Holmberg]

You go on a Thursday night and then you get the best game I've watched in years. Maybe even not years because months because that this exact same thing happened up there in the Buffalo Baltimore game to start season and midway through the year, a team nobody cares about. When the Giants and Broncos had that massive comeback, the Rams were. What was the number like 340 and 1 in games. They led by 15 points or more going into the 4th and the Seahawks were 0 and 172. First off, the Rams have had a 15 point lead 400 times in the 4th quarter. That's incredible.

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[John Holmberg]

And then both of those stats got flipped on their heads. And I loved the fact that math got so involved at the end of that thing where if the Seahawks tie it, they still lose the division because they had lost the game earlier to the Rams. So that two point conversion wasn't a choice.

[Dale Hellestra]

No, it had.

[Dave Nash]

It wasn't a choice. Anyways, we had this argument a couple shows ago or whatever. When you choose to kick the ball or not take get the kickoff in the overtime.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

You are forcing yourself to. If, if you give up a touchdown, you have to go for two because you're not going to get the ball again.

[Dale Hellestra]

No.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, if you could. But if you could afford a tie. If you could afford a tie last night. Now, now let's say it. Flip flops and Seahawks go down and get seven and the Rams have it. Rams can afford a tie, right? Because they're. They got the tiebreaker and that's that.

[Dave Nash]

And that should be annoying to everyone too.

[John Holmberg]

Why?

[Dave Nash]

Who? Yes we should all play for ties.

[John Holmberg]

No, Nobody's playing for a time.

[Dave Nash]

That's fun to watch, but it wasn't

[Dale Hellestra]

playing for a time. There's still three minutes left.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, I'm just. The point I'm making is you should never play for a tie, even if it helps the Rams. I want to see a game on the road. Win or a loss on the road, I don't care.

[John Holmberg]

It doesn't, it doesn't affect, Affect your playoff role at all. If you tie, I don't care. You still go for two and lose. You don't risk that.

[Dave Nash]

I want a win or a loss. I. If.

[John Holmberg]

No, you want a win or a double win.

[Dave Nash]

If you leave a game and you said that was a tie, that was awesome. That would be the first time you ever heard that.

[John Holmberg]

Nobody's ever said that. That was it. But a tie, if you're a Rams fan was like skin of our teeth. I'm glad we walked out of there with a tie at least, because if Rams go for two and don't get it, if you reverse roles, you flip those weird, wicked uniforms that Seattle had. I will get into that another time. I think they were sponsored by Disney. It was horrible. But then, but you flip it, then the Rams go from the number one seed to the number five, possibly six, because they got greedy on the road. No, you go for the tie. You don't like a tie.

[Dave Nash]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

But you go for a tie in that situation and still win the division.

[Dave Nash]

Yes. I'm not saying that they shouldn't do that because yes, he was.

[Dale Hellestra]

Basically said that.

[John Holmberg]

Yes, you do.

[Dave Nash]

Don't want to see. No one does.

[John Holmberg]

But you said a win or a loss, and you don't ever play for a tie. You have to play for a tie in that situation.

[Dave Nash]

You said, oh, you know, you know

[Dale Hellestra]

what I took from that game? What I took from that game is when you have. I look at Sam Darnold and I, I, I, I can't be happier for a kid who got drafted by the jets who was a bust. He was a bust. He literally got caught on the sidelines saying, I'm seeing ghosts. Yeah. To go into Minnesota last year winning 14 games. Yeah. Everybody talks about the last game and all that. And then come to Seattle and to see what he did on that last drive. And coaching, what it tells me is coaching is so damn important or this

[Dave Nash]

or the, the cast you have around you.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah. But still, the coaching has a ton to do it.

[John Holmberg]

You said it last week, it's a razor's edge on who's good and who's bad. As far as individuals, there's always guys who are better than everybody else. But I mean, you look at the basics of football, 90% of the guys, the jets players, all deserve to be in the NFL.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

But all together and how they're coached, it's just a mess. Sam Darnold in his last 39 starts is 30 and nine and he's a guy who doesn't get credit.

[Dale Hellestra]

And he was written off in New York.

[John Holmberg]

He won in Carolina, if you remember. He came in and started to win games there. Started a game for the Niners, won it. Then goes off to the Minnesota thing 15 and 2. And then this year is leading the Seahawks to an absolute gem and was the reason they won last night. Those throws in the back of the end zone.

[Dave Nash]

Let's not get way out over our skis.

[John Holmberg]

Had two losses two years in a row.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah. All right. Yeah. He's the one that returned the punt for the touchdown.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, no.

[Dave Nash]

He's the one that overturned the call for the two point conversion. Yeah, he did it all.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, he didn't do it all. But without him, they're not winning that game.

[Dave Nash]

No, I get that.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

So, yeah, let's, let's. Again, don't get so far out on your skis that Sam Darnold, you save the world.

[John Holmberg]

He didn't save the world. But he's, he's, he needs more credit than he's getting.

[Dave Nash]

Main reason he was.

[John Holmberg]

He's the main reason. He's the main reason. Watch that fourth quarter again. He's the main reason.

[Dave Nash]

Was he the main reason that he threw almost a pick six?

[John Holmberg]

Almost.

[Dave Nash]

Okay, well, yes, they did score because the ball. 14 point turnover.

[John Holmberg]

Ball is in his hands every.

[Dave Nash]

Stop throwing the ball to the other team. That'll be helpful too.

[John Holmberg]

They won the game. With his increase. There's a couple of throws in there.

[Dave Nash]

If he would have gone, if he, he, if he, he didn't poop his pants earlier on, they would have, they, they would have been running the clock out.

[John Holmberg]

Let's get to the brass test. With a double digit win, you had the Rams minus. What?

[Dale Hellestra]

No. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

You had to have some gambling to be this mad at Sam Darnold because that was impressive.

[Dave Nash]

Last night I took the Seahawks plus

[John Holmberg]

a half a point. Okay, that's pretty good now.

[Dave Nash]

Now. And the only reason I took them was, boy, this doesn't make a lot, whole lot of sense. They're both basically even up teams. They're at home and they're they're, they're. They're getting.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Doesn't make any sense. That's the only way I'm going to bet from now.

[John Holmberg]

So Matthew Stafford.

[Dave Nash]

I look at a spread. Doesn't make sense. I'm going the other way.

[John Holmberg]

Matthew Stafford doesn't have much to do with, you know, why. You know, Puka Nakua is 300 yards a game now and this guy's going nuts. It's all because he's open. It's so easy for Matthew Staff.

[Dale Hellestra]

The Cardinals draft somebody.

[John Holmberg]

Well, they can't. They can't do that. But I'm saying, like, you've got to give the quarterback credit when. The credit. These guys are making great catches. Everything else. Matthew Stafford is amazing and he gets all the credit for the Rams, all of it. Although he gets all the credit for Puka Nakua having a good career. Sean McVay. Oh, my God. Sean McVay and Matthew Stafford are bronzed week in and week out by the media. Sam Darnold's still like, I don't know. The dudes lost four games in two

[Dale Hellestra]

years, 30 and nine.

[John Holmberg]

I didn't realize his last 40 games are essentially.

[Dale Hellestra]

Sign me up.

[John Holmberg]

Take that guy all day long.

[Dave Nash]

I'm not saying he's bad. I think he's doing a great job. That's great record over our skis. He is the only.

[John Holmberg]

He.

[Dave Nash]

I think he's the only quarterback. First quarterback to win 12 games for two different teams.

[John Holmberg]

Different teams.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, it was. Anytime we're back to back years, I

[John Holmberg]

think it's back to back.

[Dave Nash]

So point. He's done a great job, but I still remember him last year in the playoff game.

[Dale Hellestra]

Oh, come on.

[Dave Nash]

I'm still remembering.

[John Holmberg]

He had a bad game and so did. By the way, don't get over your skis there. The whole team sucked.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[Dave Nash]

I get. Well, they did okay.

[John Holmberg]

The whole team just ate it last year.

[Dave Nash]

I'm looking forward to see what he does in the playoffs.

[Dale Hellestra]

So in other words, there's really nothing he can do to impress you?

[Dave Nash]

I didn't say that.

[John Holmberg]

Except he'll get blamed if he doesn't play.

[Dale Hellestra]

He has to win.

[John Holmberg]

You got perfectly. Because he might throw an almost pick six.

[Dave Nash]

Jesus Christ.

[John Holmberg]

We don't. But he can't throw an almost pick six and catch blame for it. That can't be. That can't be an assessment of his performance. Well, he almost threw a pick six. Thanks, Dan Fouts. That dude used to drive me nuts going, this is a totally different game. If that guy catches it and they score a touch. And if he ran back that kickoff. Yeah. It would be a totally different game because you just mentioned three scores that didn't happen. An almost pick six is not a thing.

[Dave Nash]

I. I'm not her two guys. Glaze. Glaze this guy's ball so much. But he deserves credit. No doubt about it.

[John Holmberg]

He deserves less than what you're saying, which is he almost blew the game.

[Dave Nash]

No, I. I'm just saying he doesn't deserve. Come on, guys. Get out of. Get out of his pants. Crying out loud.

[John Holmberg]

I'm in his pants. He's 30 and 9.

[Dave Nash]

Your knees and just watch it and say, listen. He did. He played a good look. He brought them back to a win. He's a solid quarterback. He's got it. He's done a great record. He's not the second coming of Jesus.

[John Holmberg]

Even Sammy has to be so black and white. He's just really good. He's not Christ.

[Dave Nash]

Well, okay. That's all I need. I just want you guys to.

[John Holmberg]

Not to make him a deity for

[Dale Hellestra]

the last two years. He's a top 10 quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

He's a top five quarterback.

[Dale Hellestra]

He still got a punch. No.

[John Holmberg]

How dare he. Top five quarterback in the last two.

[Dave Nash]

How dare.

[John Holmberg]

Last two years.

[Dave Nash]

How dare you.

[John Holmberg]

Name five more and put them at 10.

[Dave Nash]

Josh Allen.

[John Holmberg]

Okay.

[Dave Nash]

Josh Allen. Lamar Jackson.

[Dale Hellestra]

No, no. Oh, how.

[John Holmberg]

Lamar Jackson. This year has been horrible. Okay, we just said the last two years.

[Dale Hellestra]

Last two years.

[Dave Nash]

Oh, well, all right. That. All right. I'm taking into account.

[John Holmberg]

That wasn't the question. Take into account what? He almost threw a pick six here.

[Dale Hellestra]

Dale.

[John Holmberg]

That is not the question.

[Dave Nash]

A choice. You're. You have a. They're doing an expansion. You have a new team.

[John Holmberg]

Different argument.

[Dave Nash]

You can pick a quarterback. You can take Sam Darnold.

[John Holmberg]

Different argument.

[Dave Nash]

Or I'll give you 10 other quarterbacks. I don't know if you're gonna pick in Sam. Donald Darnold.

[Dale Hellestra]

Well, go through. You just went through one. That was so wrong, it's ridiculous. So try it. Try over.

[Dave Nash]

I. You. You would take Sam Darnold over Lamar Jackson next year?

[Dale Hellestra]

For next year in the right.

[John Holmberg]

Right now, Yes. I think I would too.

[Dale Hellestra]

Now. I wouldn't take.

[Dave Nash]

Disagree.

[Dale Hellestra]

I wouldn't take him over Josh Allen. I won't take him over. Patrick Mahomes. Healthy Patrick Mahomes.

[Dave Nash]

Justin Herbert.

[John Holmberg]

I'd take him over.

[Dave Nash]

That's it. You know, you guys can finish this alone. I'm leaving. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[Dale Hellestra]

If you flip them, is Seattle going To have a better record with Herbert than they are with Darnold.

[John Holmberg]

I agree.

[Dale Hellestra]

I don't know. It's.

[John Holmberg]

I can.

[Dale Hellestra]

I. If you don't know, then you can't definitively say one's better than the other.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, he's going to the hand brain. He's going to his little computer to get an argument. He's going to his computer to get an argument.

[Dale Hellestra]

He's gonna go. Hey, I take Jacoby Brissette over Sam Darnold. He throws from three.

[Dave Nash]

We were just talking about Joe Burrow. Joe Burrow or sand? Listen, I don't want to go. I don't want to go.

[John Holmberg]

I take Sam Darnold because Joe Burrow can't stay on the field.

[Dave Nash]

Oh, my. All right, that's.

[John Holmberg]

That's an argument.

[Dave Nash]

Keep talking. I will sit here and stoop.

[John Holmberg]

How is that not an argument? Joe Burrow's played seven games a year for the last two or three years, save for one.

[Dave Nash]

Would you rather have as your starting Sam Donald next. Okay.

[John Holmberg]

Because he's 16 games. He's not getting hurt.

[Dave Nash]

I apologize to all the listeners for.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, you should. You. You owe them apologies.

[Dale Hellestra]

Take Philip Rivers.

[John Holmberg]

You would take Philip Rivers?

[Dave Nash]

You know, let me think about it.

[John Holmberg]

No, no, I, I would say in the past two years, he's a top five pick.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

If you were basing the entirety of the league on the last two years is what Dave Dale back on.

[Dave Nash]

Just the game. Just the first game Seattle played here in Arizona.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

They had training wheels on Sam Darnold. They're. They're not letting.

[John Holmberg]

Herbert had training wheels for five years.

[Dave Nash]

Who?

[John Holmberg]

Justin Herbert down in San Diego. In la. And San Diego, they did not let him loose even much this year.

[Dave Nash]

I disagree with.

[John Holmberg]

I think he's really good. I'm not taking away that. He isn't. But I'm saying Sam Darnold's the choice.

[Dave Nash]

Sam Darnold is what you want in a quarterback. That is. He's efficient. He does the job. I don't think Sam Darnold will go out and win you games like other quarterbacks.

[Dale Hellestra]

He just won a game last night.

[Dave Nash]

Yes, I know. He returned the punt. He made the call that reversed the two point decision. He did it. That was perfect. He did it all. He was selling popcorn between.

[John Holmberg]

No credit for those two drives, especially the one in overtime when he hit Smith and Jigba in the back of the end zone with an absolute dot.

[Dave Nash]

Oh, I'm not arguing he made some plays, but.

[John Holmberg]

Yes, that's part of the point.

[Dale Hellestra]

Conversion Went to a guy built like you and he fit it right in there.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, I mean this is ridiculous. And by the way, what, what this goes to to me is the next, I want to get into the next thing too.

[Dale Hellestra]

Is what?

[John Holmberg]

Well, you can step out of this because this goes back to what he and I are talking. The logical people who are making sense over. Oh, he didn't run the kickback again. I'm going to ask the question one more time. Then I'm going to call for a hostile witness. If the league was only two years old, Give me quarterbacks outside of Sam Darnold that are better than him. If all you have in the entirety of statistics of the last two years, where's he going? Oh for gosh,

[Dave Nash]

that is. I've never heard of that. Is this guy a radio expert?

[John Holmberg]

We're gonna take a little break and we'll have a bathroom chat coming up in just seconds. Unbelievably goes the bathroom middle of the show. I can edit all this out.

[Dave Nash]

We, we can do the show without.

[John Holmberg]

Fine with that. Now let me ask again. That the last two years of statistics as the only thing you've got. Give me, give me five quarterbacks, top five quarterbacks. No, just answer the question.

[Dave Nash]

I again, I would take Jackson, I would take over the last two years. I don't care about the stats. That, the fact that the results. It's, it's. Listen, Archie Manning won the MVP in 1970 on a losing team. You could be a great quarterback and not have guys around.

[John Holmberg]

Then you couldn't have anybody.

[Dave Nash]

Darnold had a great year last year because Minnesota had a great team.

[John Holmberg]

They don't have them this year and they've won four games.

[Dave Nash]

Seattle this year has a great defense.

[John Holmberg]

Make my point for me. Minnesota won 15 games with Sam Darnold, changed one thing and are a four win football team.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, well

[John Holmberg]

get on your computer.

[Dave Nash]

Now. Obviously the rest of the team really kind of fell apart.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, that's the argument. Sam Darnold was the. I don't know that he's an 11 win difference, but he was statistically between last year and this year for Minnesota. Now again, J.J. mcCarthy might be a

[Dave Nash]

ten day five and eight, six and

[John Holmberg]

eight, four or five wins.

[Dave Nash]

But listen, McCarthy was been hurt.

[John Holmberg]

Okay?

[Dave Nash]

So take, take out his game. Plus it's his first year. You got to give him time.

[John Holmberg]

My point being you gave up at least what's going to turn out to be 10 wins a year with one change. And that guy went on to go to a team that won like eight games last year and didn't add anybody but him again.

[Dave Nash]

Minnesota won a lot of one score.

[John Holmberg]

I'm winning this. So Dale's back and I am winning this.

[Dave Nash]

They don't have the same.

[John Holmberg]

I made the point.

[Dave Nash]

Do it again. In the last two years every year

[John Holmberg]

Minnesota made one change and they have four wins.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, that was pretty quick. You didn't really wash your hands.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, it was true.

[Dave Nash]

This guy over here, ace ocd.

[John Holmberg]

No, I'm all right. I'm just not going to touch anything.

[Dale Hellestra]

Sneak out while you're trying to educate

[John Holmberg]

the number And I educated him. I silenced him. When you listen back to this you're going to enjoy when I told him the stat and he goes well and that is that Minnesota without Sam Darnold was a 15 win team and now they're looking at four or five.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right. And then JJ McCarthy was going to be a.

[John Holmberg]

Because they looked at the rest of the team and said I'm not sure it's Sam Darnold.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

He goes over to Seattle who what won nine, eight, nine games last year and that one change.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And they went from Geno Smith to this. And Geno Smith is the all time leading passer for Seattle in a season. He put up numbers.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

So they couldn't win.

[Dale Hellestra]

What do you say now?

[John Holmberg]

Sam Darnold now is that so? Go ahead and tell me who's you keep taking. Lamar Jackson over the last two years.

[Dave Nash]

I'm gonna take.

[John Holmberg]

His numbers this year are terrible.

[Dave Nash]

I'm gonna take and I and I'll

[John Holmberg]

give you that he's really, really good but I'd still it just based off the last two years. And again like I said just seconds ago, he's not a plus 10 win guy. You're not getting that.

[Dave Nash]

I go back to the 8020 rule and he's not a 20 percenter. Oh, he's an 80 percenter.

[John Holmberg]

I'll just say that you're basing that jets years.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Of what? The unfair start to his career which was you're not ready get in there on a horrible team with a bad coach. I'm not trying not to ruin.

[Dave Nash]

I'm not saying I would want him as a quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

You kind of are.

[Dave Nash]

I'm not glazing his balls like you guys.

[Dale Hellestra]

All right, all right. So that's. That's your new term but glazing ball you can't argue. You are. You're a fat guy.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

You can't or yeah. Argue the fact you're the conspiracy guy

[John Holmberg]

now you're the one creating all the nonsense and trying to throw smoke and mirrors at basic general facts. You're a vaccine against Sam Darnold's greatness. Yes. Oh, how dare.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

You are trying to vaccinate us against liking him.

[Dave Nash]

I just, just settled down. Now.

[John Holmberg]

Here's the thing I want to get into with that though. Sam Darnold embarrassed a lot of teams this year. And I don't blame teams in hindsight you can. But in the off season, Pittsburgh Steelers, Indianapolis Colts, Cardinals, even though financially they were strapped, there's five or the Raiders, five or six teams that are like Sam Darnold had the Dave Nash attitude. I don't know. I remember those jets years weren't too pretty. This, this was an anomaly. And Minnesota is willing to let them go for a reason.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Those teams are regretting that.

[Dale Hellestra]

There's. And you know he's regretting it more than anybody. The Vikings.

[John Holmberg]

The Vikings. Yeah, for sure, the Vikings. At least for this year, they may still want JJ McCarthy to be their future. But Sam Darnold.

[Dale Hellestra]

But Sam Darnold, he's young. Yeah. He's got five more years.

[John Holmberg]

And the thing is, you had a chance there before you exposed J.J. mcCarthy to go, you know what? Sam's the deal. And now we can trade J.J. mcCarthy to the Cardinals. He's still on a rookie deal and we'll get draft picks back and who cares what happens to him because we're going to be all right in the meantime.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

They didn't see it. Nobody. Yeah. And again, the Steelers, the Colts, there's a lot of teams out there. And the Colts got lucky with Daniel Jones, who was also another assessment mess.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And these. And you and I talked about a guy named Cook for the Steelers. Number 60.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

He's a fourth string offensive tackle. And again, because I'm insane, I watch the all 22 tapes after Steelers games. I go on the NFL app and I watch because you can watch any team's overhead shots, the all 22, they play the play two times from the end zone view and from the overhead. And I watch for offensive line play because we've got tons of draft capital on our offensive line and so far, especially Broderick Jones, not too impressed at a guy and I don't know like Dale does, I just know when you look like you're being pushed around, it can't be good.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

This Cook kid came in and Dale was at my house watching the game. And I had mentioned earlier, I'm like watching the all 22 that dude's never out of position. His footwork seems perfect. And Dale's like, we're barking at me that I don't know what I'm talking about. And then you watch five plays and you said, okay, after watching five plays, this dude was, he's a mistake.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes, I'm a mistake. Wherever he's drafted and wasn't and whoever said he's four strings.

[John Holmberg]

Steelers and other teams, I can't remember Atlanta or somebody picked him and cut him and he comes in and you watched a dude against Bradley Chubb.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

One on one, balanced forward.

[Dale Hellestra]

Didn't give him any help.

[John Holmberg]

Feet never crossed. He never was going backwards on, on run plays. He was forward. Every balance bit is forward momentum. It's like a running back that falls forward even when he gets hit hard.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

He had. So I look at this and I'm like, how many times like this? Basically, scouts and these guys in the front office of football, they might as well have psychic written on the sides of their cars and a phone number because they're guessing and they're missing out. You talk to me like, say what you said about Cook and people like him during the week in practice and stuff like that.

[Dale Hellestra]

Well, you, you can tell like through my decade in Dallas that we've had, we had second round draft picks, we had third round draft picks come in. As a player, you can tell within about 10 plays whether a guy has a chance or not. Now you might not be able to see whether he's going to be an all pro.

[John Holmberg]

Right.

[Dale Hellestra]

Or whatever, whether he has a chance or not. We had a guy who's a second round draft pick from Michigan State who could barely get into a stance and we're like, who scouted this guy? You watch that number 60 for the Steelers and you watch his pass set and you watch his body lane, you watch his jam, you immediately go, who made him a four stringer? He was a practice squad guy.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, he's a practice squad guy. Never got time with the actual team. His name's Dylan Cook and he is, he's been magnificent left tackle for a 42 year old quarterback. And you're putting him in there going, fingers crossed. And he has been outstanding. And it just goes to show, like, give these guys, give some people some chance. That Razor's Edge of who's good and who's not and coaching and everything.

[Dave Nash]

You not remember when I said football coaches are the dumbest people on the planet?

[John Holmberg]

No, I don't remember that. Is that true?

[Dave Nash]

They're the dumbest People on the planet, when you, when you go to college, you get a degree now you can go out and get a real job for real money. And these guys decide, I'm gonna coach. I'm going to be an assistant grad assistant and I'm not going to get paid. I don't care. I'm not going to get paid. I'm going to be a coach.

[John Holmberg]

Some.

[Dave Nash]

Everyone starts to gratitude.

[Dale Hellestra]

True.

[John Holmberg]

But it is a weird thing though, that these, these dudes slide through the cracks and how many people that just needed that opportunity to show them good.

[Dale Hellestra]

Now here's the thing. We don't know what he practiced. Like in the summer, there are practice guys and there's game guys. True. So we don't. Wait. We don't know how that happened. But I'm telling you, watching him last Sunday night. Yeah. Blocking Chubb without any help.

[John Holmberg]

Not even chips.

[Dale Hellestra]

They didn't have a tight end lined up over there. Running back didn't chip on his way. Just one on one. And he made it look effortless.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, he was great. And I, you know, again, that same game to a tongue of Iloa who is a dude who's been like, all right, he's a first rounder. He's like, he's this. You know, we gotta. Was he number one overall?

[Dave Nash]

No.

[Dale Hellestra]

No, he was not number one at top five.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, he's up there five or six somewhere there.

[John Holmberg]

You look at him, he gets benched finally this week. And I think this whole like, I think guys like Dylan Cook and just using him as an example don't get a chance to practice with the ones. So they're already mentally beaten as a 2. So you just play your role to help the defense get through practice and you're doing your part. And you got T.J. watt across from me every day in practice and you're like, I'm a two. I'm a two. Broderick Jones is the number one pick for the Steelers and has to play right. And I don't know how much that's coming into play with the finances of football now that you can't invest number one picks and not play them because there's a guy, whoops, fourth round or not drafted at all is better and we know it, but we can't put

[Dale Hellestra]

them in there because most organizations, obviously, the higher you're drafted, the more chances.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah, well, it's Brock Purdy. Remember when Shanahan said, the best guy on our roster is Brock Purdy? Like he said it, but we're not.

[Dale Hellestra]

And his dad said it.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Sixth round.

[Dale Hellestra]

And guess what his dad said after one practice.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

After the first practice, he realized, oh, my God, Yes. The best quarterback on our roster.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes. It's different. Yeah. Now here's what we don't know. We don't know if in training camp he's lining up for one on ones and he's lining up against tj. Yeah. And can't block tj. Not a good match.

[John Holmberg]

How much of it too, during practice is. You just might be. That might be the one dude that's got your number.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Every player's got me. Like, I just can't block it.

[Dale Hellestra]

And by the way, TJ has a lot of people. People's numbers.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And some people have him. Like, TJ gets stoned a lot. You know, there's a lot of times you're watching like, man, TJ's not doing like, he's just stopping the Bengals for some reason. Excellent at just stoning T.J. watt, the Browns. And I think they're motivated to get Miles Garrett to look better. That's just a personal thing. But I watch this stuff and I'm like, scouting is pointless anymore than it is just almost like a free.

[Dale Hellestra]

Here's what I would always do, and I try to trumpet this wherever I go. I would trade most of my draft picks away for guys who are in the league, who I've seen on film in the NFL play football. Because otherwise, if I'm drafting a kid from college, well, now I have to try and forecast.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

How's he gonna adjust to our level? How's he gonna adjust to our speed? Whereas if I have film or I've seen in person a dude, the right guard for somebody, and I hey, I can give you a third round pick for that guy. Yeah, give me him over drafting a young kid in the third round, you

[John Holmberg]

start seeing the guys that you scouted and said, I'm not going to take a chance because they might not jump. But if I'm watching them jump three years later, you're getting a third rounder out of it. That's an interesting approach, because draft is. It's so important. Like, the Seahawks are perfect example of when you hit. Because three years ago, every defensive player, they have starts.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And they did the first year.

[Dale Hellestra]

Okay, guess who else?

[John Holmberg]

Well, the Rams. Oh, the Rams, too. Yeah. No, the drafting is amazing. When you hit, they were done.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Aaron Donald.

[Dale Hellestra]

They lost the best player of our generation.

[John Holmberg]

No, he's the Joe Green of this day.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

He changed the defensive line and they Lose him.

[Dale Hellestra]

They get better.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, they managed to go out and get better through the draft. Seahawks did the same thing. So the draft is important, but only if you're perfect.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Because you're. You will. If you swing and miss twice in a row on first rounders, you're done for a while.

[Dale Hellestra]

Your top three picks, if you look at the Cardinal, you can just look at the litany.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. A constant.

[Dave Nash]

Well, I'm going to go back and point to Sean McVeigh coaching, very important. And not only.

[John Holmberg]

You just said they're the dumbest people in the world.

[Dave Nash]

Well, somehow he got involved. You know, he might not be that smart, but he looks like. He looks like Einstein compared to. To who else?

[John Holmberg]

There is true. That is true. There's a lot of that.

[Dave Nash]

Seriously. And I think one of the things that people overlook. What part of coaching is evaluating talent and putting it in the right spot.

[John Holmberg]

But I think they do. But I think their hands are tied financially to draft capital. Tua played because he was a first rounder. If Tua was a six, no, he would not be playing. Based on what you see with your own eyes, might be out of the league. Yeah, I agree.

[Dave Nash]

He was the fifth pick in the draft. Just in front of Sam Darnold. Justin Herbert.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Terrible front. That's a huge swing and miss. That is a huge swing and miss and you got to hang on to that for a while.

[Dave Nash]

To be honest, I didn't think Herbert was going to be much coming out of college.

[John Holmberg]

He's just too big.

[Dave Nash]

Dead wrong.

[John Holmberg]

He's just too athletic not to be

[Dave Nash]

something it seemed like. Like he was. I remember watching he lost the game here at ASU and he threw a couple intercepts. He just seemed like he was sleepy through it.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And honestly though, when I look back and I think I really appreciate quarterbacks who are calm and. And almost emotionless and.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, well, that's Sam Darnold. Go back to that. The dude has a short memory.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

He throws a pick, he goes right back out and he's throwing darts.

[Dale Hellestra]

I want to go back real quick to evaluating talent because I've coached at a small high school for a long time and this happened two years ago. I had this dude, good offensive lineman, he could pull. So I lined him up a guard, couldn't pass block inside, struggled. Didn't really like it. Moved in a right tackle, became a two time all state guy just from the position move. But my initial thought was, look at the way this guy can pull and move and do all that stuff that's what you want your guards to be able to do. Do. But one slight position move, he turns in an all stakeout. Obviously we're talking about the bigger things, but no, that's tremendous. The coaching thing and evaluation is so important.

[John Holmberg]

Evaluation is ridiculous. And I'm just saying I don't. I think as much as we say, oh, there's only like seven good kickers in the world, there's only six or seven great quarterbacks in the world, I think there's maybe six or seven good talent evaluators in all of football. I think there's guys who are 8020 rule.

[Dave Nash]

It happens in everywhere in the world. World 80 20.

[Dale Hellestra]

How about in the vax world 80 20.

[John Holmberg]

Is there an 8020 shot? All bad garbage. Okay, we'll get to that in a sec. I want to get through this. Since we're. We're, we're, you know, running into Christmas. We're running into the. And this is it for football. This is the big one. I looked at this and I said going into the playoff stretch, there are some teams that are battling for literally division or not in the playoffs. And it's close. Who do you trust more, Eagles or Lions? Wow.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

Wow.

[John Holmberg]

That's a tough.

[Dale Hellestra]

Well, the Eagles are going to win the NFC Ease. By default.

[John Holmberg]

By default. But who do you trust more going into the playoffs? And I, you know. And again, the Cowboys put a little pressure on the Eagles, so they're probably in. But are they better than the Lions, who are probably out?

[Dale Hellestra]

I would lean slightly towards Detroit.

[John Holmberg]

I would too. And I don't know why. They're 8 and 6. They haven't impressed me much this year. But something's wrong with the. Again the eye test. Something's not right. Right.

[Dale Hellestra]

With the East. Remember last year mid season. There was also something early because they were talking about firing Sirianni.

[John Holmberg]

That was early in the year. But two years ago, 11 and oh, and then lost their last six.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And you're like, all right, something. They're doing that again. So I think I'm with you. And I don't know why my brain wants that to be. I just think I trust the lines

[Dale Hellestra]

so explosive with those running back.

[John Holmberg]

But they haven't been. That's the thing about the Lions. It's like I think we're doing what Dave does with Lamar Jackson. We're hoping, you know, it's sunk cost.

[Dale Hellestra]

We saw spark and we're like, oh, that's them.

[John Holmberg]

We assume that because we've put this in, invested this, they must think they're

[Dave Nash]

missing a couple key elements in their. In their team that is affecting everyone else. It's.

[Dale Hellestra]

It's.

[John Holmberg]

How about this one? Texans Jags. Who's more of a threat in the play?

[Dave Nash]

I. I trust Texan. I don't trust anything the Jags do.

[John Holmberg]

How much is it because of their history that. Probably all that. Because Texans history is not good.

[Dave Nash]

No. But I mean, when all else being equal, I'd rather have a stout defense.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Than. And I don't know enough about the Jags defense to know if it's stuttering. I know Josh Allen's a stud. I know he changed his name like he got married or something. So he's not Josh Allen, too, anymore. But, like, he's. He's a superstar, but he's in Jacksonville,

[Dale Hellestra]

so nobody knows about him. You know, you look at the quarterbacks, boy, the guy in Jacksonville put up a couple stinkers.

[John Holmberg]

I trust Lawrence More than C.J.

[Dale Hellestra]

right.

[John Holmberg]

But I trust the Texans defense more than the Jets.

[Dave Nash]

Much more. And that's.

[John Holmberg]

That's why I think that might be where I'd lean to. But that's a tight one.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Because those two teams, we don't know anything about.

[Dave Nash]

Actually, I don't even tell you. I don't trust anything Jacksonville does because there's a comparison to Arizona.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

That they're just a losing team.

[Dale Hellestra]

But Houston, I used to have so much fun. Because you always knew there would be

[John Holmberg]

the Saturday early wildcard playoff, and out they go.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

With some weird plays like this. They just. What about Bills? Patriots?

[Dale Hellestra]

See, I. I brought this up a couple weeks ago. I go, if they met in the first round of the playoffs in. In New England, I'm taking the Bills. From what I've seen, this is a couple weeks ago.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Dale Hellestra]

Bills just beat him last week.

[John Holmberg]

Beat him. And it went in a weird game that. Two games. The Patriots won the first part of the game, the Bills won the second part of the game. And both teams look like they switch

[Dale Hellestra]

uniforms until the Patriots can put a stake through the Bill's heart.

[John Holmberg]

You go Bills.

[Dale Hellestra]

I would go Bills, Bears.

[John Holmberg]

Packers.

[Dale Hellestra]

Well, we're gonna find out what, this weekend. Yeah. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And we already found out a couple weeks that it was pretty even.

[Dale Hellestra]

It's so. Playing your bitter, bitter rival two times in three weeks, that's crazy.

[John Holmberg]

In Chicago. Chicago was bad to play in, as they say. I watched Ryan Clark the other day in ESPN go, and you could feel. And Stephen A. Smith said, you get off a plane in o' Hare you feel the wind outside. Inside. He's like that bus door opens at Soldier Field and it fills with wind.

[Dave Nash]

I would, I would have said most definitely Green Bay before they lost Parsons.

[John Holmberg]

The Parsons thing. And that's a problem. People always say. I think the bigger one was losing that tight end. I think that was huge. And I think they've kind of. They've. They've churned around it. But I think now with Parsons and what's his name.

[Dale Hellestra]

That's right.

[John Holmberg]

I got Cook in my brain. I can't remember. But.

[Dale Hellestra]

But you're. You're. You're losing 11 and a half sacks. I. I was not a huge fan of Parsons. I. Great talent. But I thought that he probably under performed from his talent. But they're going to miss him.

[John Holmberg]

His pressures are insane.

[Dale Hellestra]

To go to Green, to go to the. Playing in Chicago. Soldier Field.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

We played a playoff game there and in January it's never nice.

[John Holmberg]

No, it's all.

[Dale Hellestra]

And. And the. And the grass is always mud.

[John Holmberg]

Yep.

[Dale Hellestra]

It's just. It's. It's.

[John Holmberg]

And it's cold in different ways there. Even more than Buffalo probably.

[Dale Hellestra]

It was. It was worse than Buffalo.

[John Holmberg]

It was worse in or than Tucker Craft.

[Dale Hellestra]

That's the day. It was worse in Chicago than in Buffalo.

[John Holmberg]

Really?

[Dale Hellestra]

Because if it snows, it snows. It's usually, you know. But when you talk about constant wind, it's non stop. And. And that's what we have this gambling guy on. If you go back and look at all the gambling things. Wind affects games way more than gold.

[John Holmberg]

Mike McCarthy used to say that. He said I. Snows fine, rain's fine.

[Dale Hellestra]

Both.

[John Holmberg]

Both. The wind changes while you're playing. So it isn't fair. It's windy for both teams. But it might not be while you have the ball. It might be while they do.

[Dale Hellestra]

Or vice might be going in the wind and going 40 miles an hour and then it lets down.

[John Holmberg]

It's raining. It's raining on both of you.

[Dave Nash]

Could be the government affecting the weather.

[John Holmberg]

All right. How about Steelers? Ravens?

[Dave Nash]

Ravens.

[John Holmberg]

You think the Ravens are a better like even though they got beat and they look terrible?

[Dale Hellestra]

No, not, not. Not this year. Steelers.

[John Holmberg]

Something's wrong with the Ravens.

[Dave Nash]

No, obviously. But.

[John Holmberg]

But you trust them more than the Steelers currently.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah. And. And again trust is history. And the history I know with Steelers are they're going to sneak into the playoffs.

[John Holmberg]

Oh yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And they're going to. We're the new Texans and they're going to lose.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Same. And then. But, But Baltimore.

[John Holmberg]

What's different.

[Dave Nash]

They should. They can win it every year and should win it every year.

[John Holmberg]

They go 12 and 4 and lose in the playoffs.

[Dave Nash]

I'd rather have the 12 and 4 team than the 9 and 18.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, but they're not 12 and 4 this year. So you're saying that because in the past they went 12 and four. This year's potential nine and 18.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah. Have you never been. Listen, I go back. Have you never been on a team that you like? You really can't. You're. You're having a bad year and you should have a much better year and you're waiting to pull it together and, and sometimes you do. Now, I'm not saying they're going to pull it together, but I think they have the ability to. We'll see. But if you're they haven't done it

[John Holmberg]

right now though, I'll trust them if they haven't done it by now and they're stumbling in December the Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports right now. The NBA is heating up, March Madness is here and MLB is almost back. Every day there's a new headline, a

[Dave Nash]

new highlight, a new moment you've got

[John Holmberg]

to see for yourself. That's why I stayed locked in with

[Dave Nash]

the Bleacher Report app.

[John Holmberg]

For me it's about staying connected to my sports. I can follow the teams I care about. Get real time.

[Dave Nash]

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[Dave Nash]

Just like you just brought up Philadelphia, what 11 and 0 one year and then they lose their final five or six. Whatever. Teams also do the reverse. They wake up late in the year but you have to they haven't woken up yet. But I'm the sign is Lamar Jackson is a two time MVP quarterback. I'm waiting for him to start taking over.

[John Holmberg]

All right. I don't see it happening.

[Dave Nash]

I'm not saying it's going to happen.

[John Holmberg]

December is when you ask me who do I trust more. Yeah and I'm looking at look. Steelers are won games in December for the first time in a few years. They always limp into the playoffs. They were 11 a few years ago themselves and went into the playoffs, lost five in a row and got beat by the Browns last year same thing. They were what, 10 and 3 finished the season 10 and 8, 10 7.

[Dave Nash]

Steelers give up 30 points to nobody and the only reason they didn't do it on whatever it was Monday night National Football League. Whatever. Yeah. Hey Tua. In sub freezing weather you might as Well, I don't even know why Miami showed up. Just, they should have just forfeited instead of going out there and. And laying the.

[John Holmberg]

So the Steelers nothing to do with confirming the under 40 degree weather thing that Miami runs with. That was just because. Because it was under 40. The Steelers were drinking tea and talking while the Miami Dolphins just booted all over. I think it had a lot to do with the fact they were getting their asses kicked and it was below 40.

[Dave Nash]

And what reason? Because. Because Miami's there going, hey, we got two as quarterback. We're not very good. We beat a bunch of nobodies the last couple games. We're on a winning streak and.

[John Holmberg]

But isn't it, isn't it a good sign when your team takes care of a fraud and makes them look like the fraud they are?

[Dave Nash]

Well, at least that's doing something because

[John Holmberg]

what the Bears did last week in Cleveland proved to me the Bears are real. They went into Cleveland and watched a team that doesn't care anymore and they iced them because they're supposed to. Philly, who's struggling, goes to Vegas and takes that medicine and says, okay, we're going to get better on a team that doesn't have a chance instead of playing even with. I look at teams in December that play even with bad teams like you got no chance. Chance.

[Dale Hellestra]

Well, you got to give Aaron Rogers some credit.

[John Holmberg]

He's playing great.

[Dale Hellestra]

He's having a pretty good season two

[John Holmberg]

years in a row. Last year's numbers were good. He was just a good year.

[Dave Nash]

Listen, he's a Hall of Fame quarterback, so I've got no problem with that. I'm not pointing at him. I'm not. You. You ask who do I trust more? Fine, they could make a run. But I don't think Baltimore to do something.

[John Holmberg]

Neither team makes a run. I'm just saying who's going to win the division? Who do you trust more to win that division? You say Ravens, I think.

[Dave Nash]

Listen, does it come down to they play the last week of the season?

[John Holmberg]

There's a one game gap right now with the tiebreaker going to the Steelers and the Steelers have the Lions this weekend.

[Dave Nash]

If the Raven.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, I think the Ravens play the Patriots still.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, it's true. But I think it comes down to if the, if the Ravens win the last game against the Steelers, they're in.

[John Holmberg]

No, the Steelers can lose the next two and beat the Ravens and still win because they're one game up and they've got so basically two games up.

[Dave Nash]

Well, do they have the Tiebreaker. If they lose against the Ravens, it's head to head.

[John Holmberg]

Well, if they lose, whoever loses that game.

[Dale Hellestra]

You said if they beat the Ravens, they can lose the next.

[Dave Nash]

No, no.

[John Holmberg]

Well, they have to go one and two to close, and that one has to be the Ravens. If they win into either ones, it's. It's basically they can lose to them and still win.

[Dave Nash]

Well, I, I still think, I think the Ravens will beat the Steelers next game they play.

[John Holmberg]

Okay, that very possibly.

[Dave Nash]

And I, And I will be putting my money where my mouth is in Pittsburgh.

[Dale Hellestra]

It is.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, they beat him in Baltimore already. But it is a tough one because they're usually two teams that one and one each other, no matter what the records are. Except for the year the Steelers beat them three times, including the playoffs once super bowl won it. Egregious problem in the NFL is the Bears are talking about leaving Soldier Field and moving to northwest Indiana. Isn't that like, don't you wish the Cardinals would move to Tucson? I mean, it's not one of those moments where it's like, gosh, we could give them to another state or city or country even, maybe. How bad is this? Because I'm from northwest Indiana. That was where I was originally from.

[Dale Hellestra]

You're from Gary.

[John Holmberg]

I'm not from Gary. South of Gary.

[Dale Hellestra]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

So there's a dividing line there and that is a very strange. They call it the region.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And there's a line and it's a. It's a place called Munster where it's Gary north and then just white trash south. And not all of them, you know, but it's pretty. I'm from the white trash south. I'm from the region. And they are Bears crazy around there. Then a little bit kind of trickles into the Colts. You start getting a little culty down a little bit further southern in the region. But the northwest Indiana is technically Chicago. They're on the same time zone. They have that little weird cutout and listen, nobody lives.

[Dave Nash]

Nobody lives in Green Bay. They sell out all the time. So I think if you're a National Football League team, you can put a team anywhere and it's going to be successful.

[John Holmberg]

But if Green Bay moved to like, I don't know, somewhere else in Wisconsin, it would be brutal.

[Dave Nash]

No one.

[John Holmberg]

Well, they moved to Michigan.

[Dale Hellestra]

Really, the thing about Chicago, if again, I think it's an assignment idea and I think they're just throwing stuff against the wall to see if they can't get somebody to respond. Correct. But it's been done before. The jets and Giants have played in New Jersey. You know, they kept their names. They still could still be the Chicago Bears and. And all that.

[John Holmberg]

But it's a tough one to think that Chicago is in India, even though that is having been there. I mean, it's 35 minutes.

[Dave Nash]

You're.

[John Holmberg]

It's same. It's same trip as Glendale, right? But, man, just the state line changes everything. And I just leaving Soldier Field seems so awful. And you know, how bad power.

[Dale Hellestra]

Have you ever been to that Soldier Field? Yeah, it's the most complex because I brought some games. You can't walk around it because there's dead blocks.

[John Holmberg]

I don't even know where you get the car.

[Dale Hellestra]

Up and down and around.

[John Holmberg]

Six miles away, they have parking with like $50. I'm like, we're not even close, right?

[Dale Hellestra]

You're charging.

[John Holmberg]

You can't get close enough. Yeah, it's just weird to think of that. Finally, I wanted to get into two things locally here. Kenny Dillingham being asked if he's interested in other jobs or if he can see himself not coaching at Arizona State. And I remember when he first took the job, right? The first thing I was saying was when Ohio State comes calling because I thought Ryan Day was going to get out and I'm like, and Kenny Dillingham is the hottest property in football because he is like, there's a lot of college people that see him as like, whoa. We get him in the right program, this dude can motivate. Perfect college football coach. I know Cam Scatterboo, and he's like, kenny is the man. Like, he loves him. All the players love him. Everybody seems to be so stupid in 2025 to sit back and go, no, he loves Asu. He's never going to leave. Every human being other than Dave, every human being is going to sit back and say, my goal is to win national championships and I'm not going to do it here in Michigan's ath asking me. I gotta consider that. I don't look at him as a good coach if he doesn't consider better opportunities.

[Dave Nash]

I wouldn't leave. Why? I wouldn't leave in a heart because he. He can become a legend here, but run the show and battle for championships here. Not as easy over there, but as soon as he has a bad year or two there, they'll be after his job. And the point is, you can't trust an 18 to 22 year old to put your career on the line for that. I just don't.

[John Holmberg]

Michigan versus Arizona State. If your goal in college football is to just lead your alma mater to good things. Stay. Yeah. But I don't see that as ambitious or admirable at all.

[Dale Hellestra]

Oh, I think so. The way you phrase it, I think, of course he has to consider it. Of course he has to. And use it to his advantage to get things. Now, remember, when they're talking about a contract renegotiation here at asu, it's a little bit about how much he's getting. It's more about what's the pool I have for my assistants and what's the pool going to be for the nil.

[John Holmberg]

And you don't get that here.

[Dave Nash]

No, you don't.

[Dale Hellestra]

You don't. But it improved last year.

[John Holmberg]

Improved. But then Michigan says, oh, we have 35 million players.

[Dale Hellestra]

I understand that. But if now I'm sitting down talking to you and you get the. The president, whatever that goofball's name is, who worries about astronomy or astronomy. We like him to buy in. He doesn't like athletics. But if you get him to buy.

[Dave Nash]

He's a criminal.

[Dale Hellestra]

And all of a sudden

[John Holmberg]

this is a P. Diddy documentary.

[Dave Nash]

I'm telling you, they're all criminal. Hey, force everyone to get vaccinated.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, here we go. We'll get to that in a minute.

[Dale Hellestra]

Okay? So, hey, if you can get the administration to buy in and give you more money and all that, there'll be other jobs if you continue to have success here. I wouldn't go to Michigan, especially right now with all the nonsense. All the nonsense that's gone on last

[John Holmberg]

couple years, but now's the time.

[Dale Hellestra]

Do you know seven other coaches?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, they're a mess. Yes, they're a mess. They've got not just this.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah. They had the Harbaugh stuff at the

[John Holmberg]

end, and even then that was a little silly, but. But you're right. They are. But they have to clean house. And you bring in a guy like Kenny Dillingham, it's like, look, it's. It's not as bad as the Penn State mess, but there had to be the dude that came in after Paterno and that whole thing got washed. You can't lose. Nobody remembers how bad they were after because it's like, man, they've got some work to do. Michigan is still going to be good. Yeah. And it's basically one dude's indiscretion on top of the little, you know, quarterback says, they're.

[Dave Nash]

They're going to be really good.

[John Holmberg]

They're going to be good. And if I'm Kenny Dillingham. I look and I go, is ASU going to win a national? I mean, honestly, are they going to win a national championship in the next few years?

[Dale Hellestra]

No.

[Dave Nash]

I don't even know their quarterback's going to be next.

[John Holmberg]

No. And they can't even keep their, their guy here now because he realizes writing's on the wall. So why do we ask Kenny Dillingham to be so incredibly loyal to asu?

[Dave Nash]

I'm not saying that. I'm, I'm not saying he should be loyal and do it, but his parents live here. He grew up here. It's a great place to live. And you will be the man here until you're not. You do a radio show here in Phoenix. All right? Big market, a lot of people here, but nobody get go you. If you're gonna put your money before.

[John Holmberg]

How much you offering?

[Dave Nash]

Move to move to la. I would move to New York, move to Chicago.

[John Holmberg]

Okay. If I had the offers that were right, I would have done it because then I can move back here at an earlier age.

[Dave Nash]

You haven't had an offer?

[John Holmberg]

I've had a few. Atlanta was a big one and I almost did that.

[Dave Nash]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

Chicago was a thought. I didn't like the managers.

[Dave Nash]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

And it wasn't that much more. Look, the difference was, and I'll be honest with you, it was like they were offering two years to the five years and the amount would have been the same. And I was getting five for sure here and two question marks there. And then after that ends, I'm like, oh, they were asking me to split tens on the blackjack table. And I'm like, yeah, dealer's showing a six, right? I think I'm gonna hang on to this. There are ramifications to say it, but if my goal was, you know, you're

[Dale Hellestra]

going if you're, if you're 30.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, here. Oh, if I'm 30, it's totally. If I'm 30, the podcast thing would have been. I'd have just jumped off of this radio thing and said, I'm gonna go do it myself. Why am I making money for someone else?

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Ambition and self sustaining yourself rather than an idea. I love Phoenix, I love kupd. I love where I worked. But if for my benefit, it's better and they can't help me get any further than I've already gotten. And I want to go further.

[Dale Hellestra]

I'm saying it's, I don't think it's cut and dried. And I think you've seen a couple of his interviews to where there have been different responses from him. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

They kind of make you think he's struggling.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, it's probably.

[Dale Hellestra]

And there's no doubt about it because, I mean, maybe Michigan's blown them out of the water. Maybe they have it. Maybe it's kind of like that could be. Well, we're interested, but we'll give you a $500,000 raise. You'll have a little bit more money here and there to where you're going.

[John Holmberg]

Or maybe ASU said, hey, we can't keep up with them. We can't give you any more money, but how about we take that money and we. We match whatever they have in nil, you know, But I don't see that happening. I don't see ASU as a powerhouse. I see him as a middle A B.

[Dale Hellestra]

Well, because of history. So you're. So you're doing well. It is, but.

[John Holmberg]

It is, though. But their history and then just basic looking forward, you can see that the economics just aren't there. It's just not going to be something, you know, it's investing in. You know, I got a chance to invest. I can buy Rolls Royce or I can buy Kia. I'm like, both are good, but one's clearly going to have a better name in the end.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And that's just hundreds of years of that.

[Dale Hellestra]

No doubt about it. But the last two to three years here at Arizona State have gone splendidly.

[John Holmberg]

Well, higher than expected.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes. Way higher.

[John Holmberg]

Because they were bad.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah. And. But now all of a sudden, you know, you're eight and three and that's a little disappointing.

[John Holmberg]

The bar wasn't high and Kenny came in and just blew it out of the water. Like, we didn't. We didn't even know ASU could still do this.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And especially in this, I'm just Kevin Ray. The Sun's announcer was said, oh, no, Kenny's different. Kenny, he's not going anywhere. I'm like, why he'd be the only one. There is nobody in pro sports, college sports, or anything else that is so loyal to their thing that they're not.

[Dale Hellestra]

I don't know the circumstances around Kenny, though. Growing up here, being a fan of ASU from. From day one.

[John Holmberg]

How many guys are coaching somewhere else that grew up and, you know, I mean, Urban Meyer do it it.

[Dave Nash]

And he has the opportunity to do it. Not a lot of people have that opportunity. He's got it. And as Dale said, hey, he doesn't have to take it now. If he keeps doing the job here, he'll have his pick of jobs as they come in the future, as it goes.

[John Holmberg]

Years and years and years they go. Wait in 3 for 4 more years. Is ASU as loyal to him as he is to them?

[Dave Nash]

I. I don't.

[John Holmberg]

Probably not.

[Dave Nash]

Because people that run that college are out of their minds.

[John Holmberg]

Then you take. Then you take Michigan's job and you say, I'm going to. I'm going to get what I can get. Because I know this school is playing my loyalty and they don't have any to me. And that's where the business.

[Dale Hellestra]

Know this. As a coach, you're hired to be fired completely. You know that it's really the only job in America to where there's no shame in it.

[John Holmberg]

No, you ascend from fire.

[Dale Hellestra]

Okay, well, I got another job somewhere and you know, there's. There's no shame in it.

[John Holmberg]

No.

[Dave Nash]

I don't know if he has kids where he wants to raise them. But again, there's a lot of questions. Why is he. Which I think are more important than the money.

[John Holmberg]

You're 100.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

But why is he different? Then everybody keeps saying, and it's just local. It's like, oh, Kenny won't go get. Why, why, why do we put that

[Dave Nash]

shining halo on him that most people get. Get. They get attracted by the money.

[John Holmberg]

I think he's gonna leave Satan.

[Dale Hellestra]

Here we go.

[John Holmberg]

Thanks, church lady.

[Dave Nash]

Again, it's just a case where Satan. It's a case where, where, you know, you don't have to give everything up for more money. You don't have to. And most everybody always says more money's better.

[John Holmberg]

It's not money. It's the chance to get to the ultimate goal of your profession.

[Dave Nash]

What's wrong with the chance of making ASU where he grew up and his folks are and blah, blah, blah. And. And he wants to raise his family and make them the best they can be.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

What's wrong with that? It's like nothing. Telling everyone in the NBA, leave your team and go play on a super team and win a championship. What's wrong with saying, I, I'm a been a member of this team for years and I want to make this team the best I can make.

[John Holmberg]

Because the argument back is that team will not be that loyal to you. You have to be careful say about

[Dale Hellestra]

it because you just enlightened us like, okay, so you, you get. People come offering you jobs from around the country. They have, well, there's somebody sitting here at Hubbard going, well, are they offering that. Offering John double. Yeah, they offering John triple Right. Or they offer John about the same.

[John Holmberg]

Right.

[Dale Hellestra]

Well, we don't know what Michigan's offering.

[John Holmberg]

True.

[Dale Hellestra]

Because now if it's, if it's. He goes from $8 million here at ASU is what they're probably offering him to 15 million.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. And, and, and, but let me ask this. Do you think he's an idiot? If Alabama said, hey, come coach Alabama, LSU says, hey, come coach lsu. These power schools and Michigan's one of them, they just, I mean, they won a national championship two years ago. So, I mean, you. It's not the money, it's the idea of why are you here? Is it to make ASU great and have your kids here? Good. Then say so. But don't lie to me and say I'm only for national championships and you're not going to get one here in Michigan's like you can with us.

[Dave Nash]

Because they proven that and I agree. But if, if he, you know, getting into the fight of a national championship takes time. If he wins eight or more games for five, six years, then all of a sudden people going, asu look out ASU maybe. And then he can attract more athletes. And if, if we. They can get more nil money, then they would be able to compete. But it takes time. You can't come out of nowhere. Well, actually, you can come out of nowhere. Look at Indiana did.

[John Holmberg]

Yep.

[Dave Nash]

Texas Tech did. So you can do it, but you can.

[John Holmberg]

You sustain it. Because again, like you said, Bengals that went to every 10 years, like, move.

[Dave Nash]

Hey, remember Alabama situations with Nick Saban? Very few. Right.

[John Holmberg]

But if you got offered that program and you're Kenny Dillingham and the championship, that's that to me, I'd say, I

[Dale Hellestra]

would tell you this. The thing about Michigan that makes it kind of appealing to me, other than having to live in Michigan, is the fact that you're not replacing Harbaugh, who won a championship. You're replacing a guy who.

[John Holmberg]

Fixing something.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

You're fixing something.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes. Just like Alabama. You don't want to be the guy replacing.

[Dave Nash]

No. I can't believe that guy.

[Dale Hellestra]

You want to be the guy replaced. Replacing the guy that replaced.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. You are fixing what went wrong. And they're two years removed from a national championship and you're fixing them. That's a, That's.

[Dale Hellestra]

I'm definitely listening.

[John Holmberg]

Last thing before we get to Five Minutes with a Madman. I am a huge boxing fan and I don't know, I got a lot of boxing friends talking about the Jake Paul Anthony Joshua fight going on this weekend. And it is PT Barnum at its best. I don't know how to feel about what's happened to the sport I love so much, because this is a joke.

[Dave Nash]

I thought you were going to bring up the middleweight who just retired. Oh, 40.

[John Holmberg]

Bud Crawford.

[Dave Nash]

Two. Zero.

[John Holmberg]

Outrageous. One of the best fighters I've ever watched. That's correct. Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

If you, if you went on the, on the, on the street and asked a sports fan and just gave him his name.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Bud Crawford.

[Dave Nash]

How many people would know him?

[John Holmberg]

Not many.

[Dave Nash]

But here's the thing, right?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Here's the bad. Last year with boxing, it's so bad because it's such a beautiful sport. It really is such a great sport, and it's, it's done such damage to itself that a guy like Jake Paul comes in and people are like, I hate that guy. I hate when I'm like, you know what? He's drawing eyes to the sport. And he's changing it not for the better. He's added the WWE aspect to boxing, which is this Anthony Joshua fight is going to be more money than Anthony Joshua ever made. And he fought international heavyweight championships. Yeah, I mean, he never, he never got in the ring with the guys you wanted him to. He's one of those dudes, didn't fight Tyson Fury, you know, never fought in the prime with Deontay Wilder and all these great fighters in the heavyweight division was so good. And then he lost to a fat guy named Ruiz, who was a good fighter, but big.

[Dave Nash]

Is he the kicker for the Rams?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, that's the guy.

[Dave Nash]

There you go.

[John Holmberg]

Harrison Meeker. Mevis. So I'm looking at this, I'm just like, as guys who, I don't know how much you're into the sport of boxing. Is it better or worse? Is it eyeballs on a sport and kind of making like a wink and a nod like we know it's a show, or would you rather have the Terence Bud Crawford career? That was honestly, other than Floyd Mayweather, one of the most sound fighters I've ever watched. Ever. No question. And he's beaten everyone. That's why he retired. It's like everybody that was a challenge. He handled Canelo Alvarez easily, stepped up and wait to do it. And he steps away, gets no fanfare. Jake Paul comes off Instagram and Twitter.

[Dale Hellestra]

Let me tell you where I'm at at this thing. I, I, in the 70s and 80s, I liked boxing. And then, and then Tyson came along, and for a little bit, I like Tyson. And then I got tired of paying 50 bucks for 35 seconds.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And then those were a good 35 seconds.

[Dale Hellestra]

But then you start talking to some people, kind of know things. You're like, these are kind of all setups.

[John Holmberg]

They're all, in a weird way.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah. And it's like, okay. And then, since then, I just said, I don't know.

[John Holmberg]

I think Mike Tyson was the worst thing that ever happened to boxing because of when he came around, pay per view was at its peak, and you just basically kicked the fans in the balls 13 times, and they finally said, enough's enough. Also, he never beat anybody good. He lost to everybody good. If he fought someone good, they beat him.

[Dale Hellestra]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Mike Tyson did electric knockouts against dudes you won't remember.

[Dale Hellestra]

And the thing is, the other thing about it is, and I'm not a big UFC fan, I don't like seeing guys get the. But you at least know that that's real.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

You know that these two guys are trying to knock each other out.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellestra]

Trying to kill each other.

[Dave Nash]

Yep.

[John Holmberg]

And boxing's a soap opera now.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And that's why I think the Jake Paul thing, as much as I hate what he has done to the sport I love, he's filling Texas Stadium like it's not happening anywhere else. You're not doing that. I mean, I've been to a couple of heavyweight people championship fights, and it's more exciting than a Super bowl to be at live. It's more exciting than a World Series, an NBA champ. It's better than all of them.

[Dave Nash]

So it's just a comparison we just talked about. Is it about the. The pure competition and you. You love the sport, or is it about the money? And it's about the money.

[John Holmberg]

But is it about the. To reform the entire sport into sign of a social media version of what it used to be? Because it's. It's dead.

[Dave Nash]

The reason why it is because of the money.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, but they're still make a ton of money off big fights. I mean, the biggest numbers in pay per view history are boxing.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah. But if it goes more the line of Jake Paul and who the neck Jake Paul is. And now you're fighting a, you know, a camel or whatever, I want to watch you get a. In there with an elephant, whatever. I don't know. I mean, it comes. It's all about the money.

[Dale Hellestra]

Are you paying for the fight?

[John Holmberg]

That's my. That's my thing. That was the next question. It's like. It's.

[Dale Hellestra]

Because I'm definitely not. I mean, I saw a little blurb on it, and I'm like, eh, I've heard of Jake Paul.

[John Holmberg]

I mean, Jake Paul called out Bud Crawford before he fights Joshua. He said, I'll fight Bud Crawford next. The dude is just. He's P.T. barnum.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And he's creating. He's creating. I don't know. He's creating an interest, not a sustainability. It's a blip. But it's a money. But you're right, it's money. But it's money. Not just for him. I mean, the numbers are insane. It's on Netflix. I don't know. I just look at this, and I'm kind of like, as a. As a fighter or a guy who loves fighting, I absolutely love boxing. But I also know it is not.

[Dale Hellestra]

So it's on Netflix, but then you have to pay extra.

[John Holmberg]

No, Netflix does it. You pay if you have a subscription, it's yours. But they'd go off like, clicks and numbers. And they had, like, 60 million for the time he fought Tyson. It's an insane game, and it stinks. It drives me nuts because it would be like if football went pay per view. And then the next thing you know, it's like, you know, 14 dudes go, I challenged the Rams to a game, and it's like, what's the.

[Dave Nash]

And I'd pay to watch Tyson fight a mule. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And, you know, some. Like a group of us get together and go, I want to take on the 1996 Dallas Cowboys. And we suit you guys up. And some yahoos who are like 27 or playing, you know, some state league. Yeah. And they go out and beat the Cowboys from 96. Well, that's pretty good. Like, people were. Tyson still 60, right. What are you thinking? And. But. No but you. But I don't want old men to do well in sports.

[Dave Nash]

I know. I've already heard. I know.

[John Holmberg]

I don't want. I don't want to watch you win things. That means the sport's broken anyway. All right, well, that's it for this, the sports thing. A John Holberg podcast with permanent guest Dale Hellstrey and the rest. And now it's time for five minutes.

[Dale Hellestra]

So it's gone. Just so I'm clear, it's gone from John. The John Holmberg podcast.

[John Holmberg]

It's disposed.

[Dale Hellestra]

John Holmberg production.

[John Holmberg]

Did I say production? I'm sorry. It's a John Holberg podcast and production. Technically, I have to do some producing. I'm the ep.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

I'll run the show.

[Dale Hellestra]

You just quietly. Those of you who just found us understand this started off as John was gonna be.

[John Holmberg]

I was just. I was, I saw how flawed you guys were and I came in and took over. It's like, I can help these two.

[Dave Nash]

So I should not have you on my show, the Real Matrix, because all of a sudden I. In a couple months, it's gonna be the John Holmberg Matrix.

[John Holmberg]

If you wanted to, if you want me to help you.

[Dave Nash]

I don't. I promise. I don't want your help.

[John Holmberg]

I'll be on your podcast, but don't be surprised if later you're on mine

[Dale Hellestra]

if you're entertained by this. Also I'm on the main event, Steve. That's right, McCollum. You can find that on all your platforms. Right? David?

[Dave Nash]

Go to, go to YouTube, go to TME sports show. You can search them down that way. And if you want to watch, just some miserable looking people.

[John Holmberg]

That's true.

[Dave Nash]

Talk about sports. They talk. Well, cameras there though. Just cover up the screen.

[Dale Hellestra]

I'm the only guy who did. Does not like high def tv. No, I like.

[John Holmberg]

And high. Definitely does not like you, Dave. You also have a podcast. Are you talking about that yet?

[Dave Nash]

It's, it's real, Mitch. I, I, you know, I'm so.

[John Holmberg]

Why do you hate promoting it? So much information together?

[Dave Nash]

Because I don't, I haven't, I haven't set it up to actually be able to be watched easily.

[John Holmberg]

Okay.

[Dave Nash]

I'm on their stupid sports show website on YouTube. You got to do that and then hit the Real Matrix. I mean, you get tired of typing if you're trying to find it.

[John Holmberg]

So we're late. This one's gone too long. Five minutes with a madman. Dave Nash.

[Dave Nash]

I'll just, I'll just touch on. Because we only have. Let's do it 50 seconds with it.

[John Holmberg]

Impossible.

[Dave Nash]

Again, there is weather modification going on. So it's just, it's just happening.

[Dale Hellestra]

Are you telling me that the government can get involved in gambling?

[Dave Nash]

The government gets involved with everything.

[John Holmberg]

What do you mean everything? Weather modification is going on.

[Dave Nash]

They can make it rain when they want.

[John Holmberg]

Why?

[Dave Nash]

Because, listen, Lyndon Baines Johnson said when you control the weather, you control everything.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, but I think he was like kind of just making a thing to say that's almost out of our control.

[Dave Nash]

Almost that. That's what most people think.

[John Holmberg]

Why do we have a drought?

[Dave Nash]

They can do it.

[John Holmberg]

Then why do we have a drought

[Dave Nash]

if, if they want to make it rain, they can make it rain.

[John Holmberg]

They just choose to have a drought.

[Dave Nash]

Correct.

[John Holmberg]

Okay.

[Dale Hellestra]

To put us under duress. Because they're against us.

[Dave Nash]

Listen, the, the Tragedy that happened in Texas, the flood, all the flood with all those campers. That was not an accident.

[John Holmberg]

That was weather created by the government to kill people.

[Dave Nash]

No, it wasn't. I think it was just an accident. They, they can modify the weather and I think they. It got out of hand.

[John Holmberg]

The clouds got out of the building

[Dave Nash]

got out of hand.

[John Holmberg]

What's. Where are they keeping all this weather?

[Dave Nash]

No, it. You can, you can see there is. You know, listen, listen. This is just a simple question.

[John Holmberg]

I didn't mean to.

[Dale Hellestra]

Blew up.

[Dave Nash]

You can find out more of this information when you see it on the real matrix. I will do a whole.

[John Holmberg]

That was pretty good. That was a good one right there. But tease me a little.

[Dave Nash]

I'm.

[John Holmberg]

I'm not trying to disparage the thought because I don't see that it would be bad. But where again, how many people have to keep this quiet?

[Dave Nash]

Listen, there are whistleblowers that come out about. They kept it quiet about COVID Right?

[Dale Hellestra]

Sure.

[John Holmberg]

But I'm. We're talking about weather right now.

[Dave Nash]

There's all kinds of nonsense going on out there. But because the people that run the nonsense own the media, you're not going to find it on tv, mainstream media, any of that stuff. You're not going to find it there.

[John Holmberg]

You've got a job controlling the weather.

[Dave Nash]

You can.

[John Holmberg]

Right. You go home to your family at night and you're like, we control the weather. Don't tell anybody.

[Dave Nash]

I'm not saying that.

[John Holmberg]

Well, how do you feel? How does it. But that's my point. That's what I need to know to be convinced of this, is that what are the steps to make it look

[Dave Nash]

up in the sky for the past couple years, they're trying to do away with it. You realize states are doing away with chemtrails, right? Chemtrails. That. What do you think? What do you think they're doing chemtrails for? They're. They're trying to control the weather, either block the sun or make more clouds or make it rain or whatever it may be.

[John Holmberg]

Then the airlines are in on it.

[Dave Nash]

It. Well, again, pilots, they run everything.

[John Holmberg]

But the government does. But that's what I'm saying. But the pilots have to know these chemtrails are definitely changing way other.

[Dave Nash]

Again, most people don't care. They're just doing their little jobs. They want to be left alone. The people that run everything, they have an agenda. They want to control everything. Just like you who runs your radio show and now and this podcast now, our podcast turned into Your pod.

[John Holmberg]

I'm a virus. I will control your podcast.

[Dave Nash]

Podcast? I get that.

[John Holmberg]

I am an agent of the government come to take over.

[Dave Nash]

I get that. So you're a control freak. I'm not. How dare you.

[John Holmberg]

Not a control.

[Dave Nash]

How dare you.

[John Holmberg]

I'm good at controlling things. There's a difference.

[Dave Nash]

Well, there are other people that. Are you on steroids?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Well, you just want to control everything.

[Progressive Commercial Announcer]

Sure.

[John Holmberg]

You're just a freak. The control part, not so much. You're a control freak more than I'll ever be. A control freak.

[Dave Nash]

That's not even. I. I could care less about half this.

[John Holmberg]

I don't either. We can stop right now. By the way, the 52nd mark he promised us.

[Dale Hellestra]

We're now at 3 minutes and 40 seconds.

[John Holmberg]

3.

[Dale Hellestra]

40.

[Dave Nash]

Get me out of here.

[John Holmberg]

I don't want you out here. I find it fascinating because I just want to know how you get to step nine and can't explain steps one through eight.

[Dave Nash]

What do you mean?

[John Holmberg]

Well, it's just always step nine is this, and step one is they're in control. But where's the. How do you get all those people

[Dave Nash]

involved in their meetings when they were doing this?

[John Holmberg]

But you know how it ended. And that's the thing, the research to me that convinces me is, oh, my God. Like I said, the airlines are in on. The pilots are in on it. The people who work at the. Hey, there'd be something we'd know.

[Dale Hellestra]

I will tell you the one thing that he's got me thinking.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, no, you've got it, too.

[Dale Hellestra]

That was the whole vaccination. Vaccinations and all that.

[John Holmberg]

How there's, in hindsight, disaster. Looking at that, you're like, oh, and I think they stumbled so badly with COVID It made us look at all of them and go, this isn't new.

[Dave Nash]

They're all bad.

[Dale Hellestra]

Because when we were growing up, we got like three. Three vaccinations and that. And now 60. Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

It's an awful 72.

[John Holmberg]

Are there really 72?

[Dave Nash]

72.

[John Holmberg]

And I do believe somewhere in the middle lives the truth.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

That there's probably polio. I'm gonna take that one.

[Dave Nash]

That again, I.

[John Holmberg]

You know what? I'm talking to me. But you've talked.

[Dave Nash]

I'm gonna send you my show.

[John Holmberg]

Okay.

[Dave Nash]

On polio, it was. It's not a virus. It's not any of that nonsense sense. It was contact with chemicals, ddt. When they did away with ddt, it went away. Went away.

[John Holmberg]

Right. Lead gas is another one. That gas went away in A bunch of things.

[Dave Nash]

Exactly. So. Point is, that was a toxin.

[Dale Hellestra]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

That caused polio. The. The vaccine did nothing. Vaccine. Actually, the vaccine harmed a lot of people early on.

[John Holmberg]

Okay.

[Dave Nash]

It's just nonsense.

[Dale Hellestra]

Hey, you could just stop it. Yeah. And just let him.

[John Holmberg]

Let him go. I wonder if I just hit the button. If we could talk to Dave until, like, five today, I think it could work. It's fascinating to me. It's just the delivery system is so all over the place. Oh, I'm talking about you.

[Dave Nash]

I. I am not good at this. I am not good at.

[John Holmberg]

I am gonna cut that and I'm gonna leave that. And every time I feel like. Yeah. When we talk about Sam Darnold again, I'm just gonna hit that. Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

All right.

[John Holmberg]

I am not good at this.

[Dave Nash]

Let's close.

[John Holmberg]

On that note, that's it for us. You guys have a great Christmas. I think we'll do another one before the holidays are out. But, everybody, thanks for hanging with us in this little infant of a show that's growing into a behemoth of a man. It is that the sports thing? A John H. Podcast with Dale Hollister and Dave Nash. We're done.

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