S E21: The Sports Thing Podcast w/Holmberg, Hellestrae And Nash - Episode 21 - 01-06-26

Summary

The Sports Thing Podcast w/Holmberg, Hellestrae & Nash

Episode 21 – January 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively Episode 21, hosts John Holmberg (of 98 KUPD), Dale Hellestrae (former NFL offensive lineman, three-time Super Bowl champ), and Dave Nash (Arizona media personality) dive deep into NFL playoffs, the emotional highs and lows of sports hate, the rocky state of the Arizona Cardinals, and the latest in college football and Phoenix Suns hoops. With passion, sharp banter, and irreverent humor, they examine what fuels real fandom, debate possible coaching changes for NFL teams, and offer their takes on the upcoming playoffs in pro and college football.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Upgraded Studio, Podcast on Video (01:11)

• The team debuts a new video podcast setup, bringing their on-air banter to a visual platform.
• Holmberg jokes about his looks:

  "Physically a four. But I make up for it with personality." – John Holmberg (02:22)

• Playful introductions and digs at each other's appearance and former TV shows.

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2. The Joy of Hate in Sports (03:25)

• Holmberg describes his “joy of hate” philosophy, especially regarding his Steelers fandom and hatred for the Ravens:

  “I get more joy from them [Ravens] losing than the Steelers winning.” – John Holmberg (04:03)

• Describes watching a critical missed Ravens field goal that secured the Steelers’ playoff spot. Hellestrae confirms:

  “You walked in here this morning, and it’s almost like you floated in." – Dale Hellestrae (03:49)

• Dave Nash is more motivated by betting losses/wins than team rivalries but relays the emotional rollercoaster as well.

Memorable Segment:

• Holmberg rehashes moments when sports “hate” delivered greater happiness than life milestones:

  "People say, ‘Oh, the birth of my child's the best.' No way. You had a better day when your kid was born than I had, son.” – John Holmberg (07:10)

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3. NFL Kicker & Long Snapper Angst (08:00)

• Hellestrae gets technical about the stress and stigma of missed kicks for long snappers and kickers, referencing famous playoff misses (Scott Norwood, Mike Vanderjagt).

  “Worst sound for a long snapper is no sound. That means the ball didn’t get to the punter. That’s you.” – Dale Hellestrae (11:37)

• Explores legacy-defining moments hinging on special teams and the career impact of a single play.

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4. Cardinals, Coaching, and the Problem with Incompetence (19:20 – 36:10)

• Extended discussion about the Arizona Cardinals’ dysfunction, lack of desirability for top coaching picks, and organizational apathy.
• Both Nash and Holmberg agree: the root issue is ownership (the Bidwill family):

  "Through 40 years...the single name attached to that team: Bidwill." – John Holmberg (24:38)

• Debates over what would make the Cardinals appealing or relevant again, including aggressive ideas like:

  “You’ve got to start all over…” – John Holmberg (25:15)

  • Nash’s top choice for Cardinals head coach: Jon Gruden; both he and Holmberg see Gruden as the culture reset the franchise desperately needs.

    “Jon Gruden is the guy that can change everything.” – John Holmberg (31:45)

• Conversation includes the Herds of recent coaching hires who underwhelmed and the poisonous effect of institutional incompetence.

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5. NFL Coaching Jobs – Ranking Openings (43:03)

• The crew debates the current NFL job openings, ranking attractiveness:
  • Giants considered best reboot
  • Atlanta promising but with questionable QB situation
  • Cleveland and Raiders in the mix but with complications
  • Cardinals and Raiders at the bottom—Cardinals “least desirable” job in the NFL

    “The Cardinals have managed to take Phoenix, Arizona…and make it in the wintertime an undesirable location. How do you do it?” – Holmberg (24:27)

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6. NFL Playoff Preview & Underdogs (50:19)

• Looking ahead to the playoffs, the hosts label Denver as a “fraudulent one-seed,” are wary about Jacksonville as underdogs, and discuss how the “drunk uncle” Steelers could play spoiler.
  • Holmberg asserts: “My Steelers are a drunk uncle—they can make noise.” (53:20)
• Unexpected teams (like Carolina in NFC) could disrupt brackets.
• Nash advocates betting the Rams to win the Super Bowl:

  “I love the Rams and I’ve already bet them to win.” – Dave Nash (55:01)

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7. Reflecting on Season Predictions – Admitting Mistakes (57:03)

• Honest self-critique about blown predictions:

  “Dale, you and I both thought the Cardinals would win the NFC West. That is the most egregious and embarrassing L.” – John Holmberg (57:06)

• Recall surprise division winners and playoff teams that no one saw coming (Jacksonville, Miami, New England, Denver).
• Quick takes on the MVP race, rookie QBs (Mendoza, Jackson Dart), and the fallacy of preseason “locks.”

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8. College Football Playoff Preview (60:37)

• Looks forward to Indiana vs. Oregon and Miami vs. Ole Miss matchups.
• Coaches under the spotlight: Indiana’s Kurt Cignetti lauded for his winning track record.
• Debate over Miami’s defense vs. Mississippi’s dynamic offense.
• Playful skepticism about Indiana’s ability to handle national-championship-level heartbreak.

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9. Phoenix Suns Update (67:09)

• Recaps Suns’ surprise win over Oklahoma City, followed by a close loss to Houston.
• Criticism of Kevin Durant’s energy and drama:

  “Kevin Durant is an energy vampire...sucked all the life off the floor.” – John Holmberg (68:47)

• Hope for Suns future: Don’t rush trade rumors, let team chemistry grow.

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10. Quickfire: Patriots Scandals & NFL Cheating (69:52)

• The team jokes about Robert Kraft’s off-field behavior and rehashes Patriots’ past cheating scandals.

  “If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying.” – Dave Nash (72:18)

• Playful debate over the Patriots being the “most hated” team after years of dominance and controversy.

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11. Madman’s Five Minutes: Fraud in America & Politics (73:16)

• Dave Nash closes the show with a characteristically blunt rant about societal frauds, referencing government waste, daycare scandals, and immigration politics.

  “If you think that the daycare issues in Minnesota are the only issues of fraud you’re going to find in America, I have some oceanfront property to sell you in North Dakota.” – Dave Nash (73:19)

• Spirals into debate about religion and patriotism: should politicians have to swear oaths on the Bible or Quran?
• Holmberg:

  “One of the beautiful things about this country is our freedom of and from religion.” (75:06)

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Notable Quotes

• “Hate in your heart leads to joy when your foes fall. It’s a T-shirt. I write them.” – John Holmberg (07:43)
• “The worst thing for a sports franchise isn’t hate—it’s apathy.” – Dale Hellestrae (23:59)
• “The Cardinals’ ring of honor is a bunch of guys who were better on other teams.” – John Holmberg (27:12)
• “Jon Gruden is the guy that can change everything...he’s louder than the owner, more important than the owner.” – John Holmberg (31:45)
• “This year alone, seven different division winners [in the NFL] than last year.” – Dale Hellestrae (38:09)

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Engaging Moments & Humor

• Holmberg’s giddiness over the Ravens’ playoff miss, making “Lamar Jackson crying” T-shirts.
• Candid, sometimes absurd confessions about how much sports hate brings them joy—even more than most life experiences.
• The gang’s comedic take on Robert Kraft’s massage parlor escapades and intricate cheating conspiracies in the NFL.
• Dale’s retelling of NFL long snapper trauma, and why the “double thud” meant a bad day.

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Useful Timestamps

• [03:25] – The “Joy of Hate” in sports
• [08:00] – Anatomy of a failed kick: long snapper’s perspective
• [19:20] – Arizona Cardinals’ dysfunction & unappealing job market
• [31:45] – Case for Jon Gruden as next Cardinals coach
• [43:03] – NFL head coach vacancies, rankings and discussion
• [50:19] – NFL playoff previews and betting underdogs
• [57:03] – Admitting mistakes: Season prediction post-mortem
• [60:37] – College football playoff preview
• [67:09] – Phoenix Suns update and Durant drama
• [69:52] – Patriots scandals & “if you’re not cheating, you’re not trying”
• [73:16] – Nash’s “Five Minutes with a Madman” on fraud & patriotism

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Tone & Style

• The podcast is breezy, unfiltered, with plenty of ribbing and self-deprecation.
• Mix of serious sports analysis and sharp, irreverent humor.
• No topic is off-limits—from sports heartbreak to conspiracy theories to political asides.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Show

This episode represents everything that makes The Sports Thing Podcast a must-listen for Arizona sports fans and general sports die-hards: inside football stories, local team gossip, passionate sports philosophies, and a willingness to get personal (and a little weird) in the name of fandom. If you want sharp, honest, and often hilarious sports debate—with an Arizona perspective—this one’s essential listening.

Transcript

[John Holmberg]

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[John Holmberg]

You tell me when, Dale.

[Dale Hellstray]

Okay, so they're ready whenever you are. Okay, go ahead and shoot it off.

[John Holmberg]

Here we go.

[Dale Hellstray]

Ready?

[John Holmberg]

All right, here we go. We're in a brand new place. We're in a brand new system here. And it just looks better than ever. At least one third of it does. Welcome to this week's edition of the sports thing, a John Holmberg podcast now with video. How are you doing out there? We can do some video stuff. You get to look at us while we do this. This makes me feel fantastic. I'm John holmberg, host of 98 KUPD's Morning Sickness. And alongside me, Dale Hellstray, three time world champion for the Dallas Cowboys and sometimes participant on my wildly successful morning show. And Dave Nash, the angry patriot. What's the. What is the name of your show you host?

[Dave Nash]

Real Matrix.

[John Holmberg]

The real matrix.

[Dale Hellstray]

And I'm co host of the main event.

[John Holmberg]

I was gonna get to that. No, you weren't. I was gonna get to that. I'm coming back. I'm just introducing names and see do a Show with Steve McCollum who I've

[Dale Hellstray]

just talked to fellow Dobsonite.

[John Holmberg]

That's right. Dobson Mustang. Mustang pride. That's what we have.

[Dave Nash]

So you're really proud of your. Your view here. On a scale from 1 to 10,

[John Holmberg]

what do you give yourself through the camera?

[Dave Nash]

No, just your list. Now.

[John Holmberg]

I'm a realist.

[Dave Nash]

One to ten.

[John Holmberg]

I'm not going to sit like Dale and I'm not going to be like you. Whatever Bob's big boy hairdo you've got this week, I am at best a four.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah. Okay. I give you three and a half to four.

[John Holmberg]

Best of four. Physically a four. But I make up for it with personality. Well, that, too.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

So I've got all sorts of ways that people are like, well, that's better than I expected. So I set a low bar and overachieve.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And that's the one.

[Dale Hellstray]

And I set a high bar and over.

[John Holmberg]

I'm not so sure about it.

[Dale Hellstray]

Now, I do have to ask you a question, because I did here on my way in this morning, do the main event. I heard you talking about. You guys don't have cameras on your wildly successful morning.

[John Holmberg]

We do not.

[Dale Hellstray]

And evidently they've asked you to do that.

[John Holmberg]

Now, the problem is they can't figure out how to turn them off during the. You've been in my studio when we're not on the air.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah. There's some stuff that probably should not go public.

[John Holmberg]

Dangerous place to be. So I'm very protective of that.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

So as long as they can promise me that everything shuts off, that's not under my control the second I shut it off.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And doesn't record me, like, you know, like, would be on Dave's shows.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Some sort of conspiracy where people are listening in and doing stuff like that.

[Dale Hellstray]

Or the Philadelphia Flyers or one of

[John Holmberg]

those types of things. And we can get into that in a little while, too. Let's start this show with something I like to call, and we've talked about a little bit before, the joy of hate. Put hate in your heart, and soon it will lead to the happiest experience you can have. For example, I cannot stop beaming. I am the happiest I've ever been.

[Dale Hellstray]

You walked in here this morning, and it's almost like you floated in.

[John Holmberg]

I float.

[Dale Hellstray]

I'm like. I've never seen John act like that.

[John Holmberg]

Like a cloud.

[Dale Hellstray]

Why, Jon? Because the sun's lost.

[John Holmberg]

No, no, no.

[Dale Hellstray]

Oh.

[John Holmberg]

I'm a Pittsburgh Steelers fan so much that watching the Baltimore Ravens cry. And I can prove this with a photograph I made myself of Lamar Jackson crying on AI. I don't know if you can see he's crying. Yes. Two years ago, he was crying. I photo of it. I made T shirts. I made screen savers. And every time the Steelers beat the Ravens, underneath whatever I'm wearing is Lamar Jackson crying shirt. I got so much Joy. Sunday night when this. And I hate them so much. I get more joy from them losing than the Steelers winning.

[Dale Hellstray]

You do. I can testify to that.

[John Holmberg]

And tying them together. And tying them together with a child on the. On the field crying through a helmet.

[Dave Nash]

How was your roller coaster ride that?

[John Holmberg]

Ridiculous.

[Dale Hellstray]

I can't imagine you as they're on that last ride missing the extra point. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, done. I was done.

[Dave Nash]

Someone listen to this at a different time. This was the last game of the year.

[John Holmberg]

Yes.

[Dave Nash]

2000.

[John Holmberg]

It's a playoff game. 25, 20, 25. January snap.

[Dave Nash]

2026.

[John Holmberg]

Winner goes to the case.

[Dave Nash]

Someone listen this later.

[John Holmberg]

Loser goes home.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

It's not even for a seed. It's for the last spot.

[Dale Hellstray]

There's Aaron Rodgers lead the charges. You score a touchdown, keep telling me more. Boom, boom, boom. And then misses his first extra point in four years. Bam.

[John Holmberg]

Chris Boswell missed an extra.

[Dale Hellstray]

Ted, tell me what the room was like. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And down.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And in pain.

[Dale Hellstray]

And then the Ravens get the ball

[John Holmberg]

after that missed extra point. If you to come to my house and I have people come over to the house probably 15, 20 every Sunday. You could have walked through a morgue or a hospice room and felt more energy and joy.

[Dale Hellstray]

They all love the steel. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

It's the only people really allowed. And Dale shows up and it is. It was so like we knew that extra point was going to be a problem.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Then they hit the pass, likely makes the catch and you're like they're on the 22 yard line, 23 yard line. Give me to give me. It's like right. And then University of Arizona.

[Dale Hellstray]

Here, here. When 52 year old Aaron Rodgers leaves you to touch 42.

[John Holmberg]

He's just a child.

[Dale Hellstray]

Then here. Oh, when you miss the extra point.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

Then down further when the pass hits

[John Holmberg]

and when they're lining up for the kick, you're just hearing people just whispering, come on, block this. Come on, just knock it. Just.

[Dale Hellstray]

They couldn't block it. It was so far right nobody knew where it was going.

[John Holmberg]

Even reach for it over there. And the better part wasn't the missed extra point. It was that the hate in my heart was rewarded with the pain for someone I don't care for. Lamar Jackson was crying. John Harbaugh was crying. And I've seen it before and I know what joy it brings. And it's the best feeling. People say, oh, the birth of my child's the best.

[Dave Nash]

No way. No way.

[John Holmberg]

You had a better day when your kid was born. Then I had son.

[Dale Hellstray]

Nobody has a Screenshot of newborn baby coming out.

[John Holmberg]

Nobody leaves the hospital floating two days later the way I am. They're worried now. You got to pay for this. It's over when it's over.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And that's the way it ends. Forever. Lamar will not. He's the MVP of his couch. That's it. This was amazing. So to everyone, hate in your heart leads to joy when your foes fall.

[Dale Hellstray]

I like that.

[John Holmberg]

It's a T shirt. I write them. This is. This is the only thing that I recommend to everyone at all times is to find something to hate and watch it, because it will succeed and it will breed more hate. But when it falls, it's also worth it.

[Dale Hellstray]

Let's talk about that missed field goal.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, let's.

[Dale Hellstray]

So did you know it was wide right as soon as it left his foot?

[John Holmberg]

I didn't see it off his foot.

[Dale Hellstray]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

Buried in the ground. I had my head under a counter, and once it. Once I said to myself out loud, I got to watch.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And I lifted my head just to watch Ben Scaronic jump over the guard. Ravens fans shut up. If he hits the kick, there's nothing to complain about. And he did potentially make that. That's not why you lost. Jumps over the thing and then. And the ball just started going right. And it was a. No doubt. It's not coming.

[Dale Hellstray]

No. It was not coming back.

[John Holmberg]

It wasn't. It wasn't.

[Dale Hellstray]

It was a slice of epic proportion.

[John Holmberg]

And I just thought, this is how the Giant fan felt in 1991. This was.

[Dale Hellstray]

This was wide right, but Scott Norwood's was much closer to making.

[John Holmberg]

I think. So. Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

By the time. By the time this thing got to the goal post, it was almost out of the TV shots.

[John Holmberg]

Well, in 05 when Vanderjack for the Colts. And we'll get into what I want to talk about with this, which is Vanderjagt for the Colts looked at Bill Cower in the playoff game and in the Hoosier Dome, like you're going to call a timeout and ice me and then hit the worst field goal attempt I've ever seen. That thing was. It didn't even go over the line. It went to the right of it. It was one of the worst. And it would have just tied the game. But that was after Jerome Bettis fumbled the football on the one to ice the game against the.

[Dale Hellstray]

This is 2005. Yeah. 20 years ago. Yeah. It's like it happened yesterday.

[John Holmberg]

And here's why. And Dale, you should like, this is. This is for a long snapper especially. That's his legacy. If the Colts score and win that in overtime.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Jerome Bettis's legacy is he was a great running back. But that fumble, I mean, Ernest Byner, that's all he's known for.

[Dale Hellstray]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[John Holmberg]

That's why John Elway would have been a complete nightmare had it not been for the 90s Super Bowls.

[Dale Hellstray]

Correct.

[John Holmberg]

Because he was known for, oh, he can't do it. And then the drive and then the stuff that happened, you know, to the Browns and them. Had the fumble and the drive, and then he lost Super Bowls because he couldn't. But your legacy is tied to that. Chris Boswell is a great kicker for this. For the Steelers misses that extra point. If the Ravens go down and win that, there's a chance that's never forgotten. If the Ravens go on a run or anything like that happens. I thought of you when that kick happened, and I thought of the Ravens long snapper thinking to himself, when he hears the crowd in Pittsburgh, when do you know, as a long snapper, he missed it.

[Dale Hellstray]

Well, you see, it depends. Back when I played, they could line up four guys on you, and sometimes you ended up head over tea kettle.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. You weren't looking at the kid.

[Dale Hellstray]

No. So all you could hear was the crow.

[John Holmberg]

Right.

[Dale Hellstray]

All you. All I never wanted to hear was a double thud. Yeah. And as I'm watching that, I'd come over to your house for a little bit, then went home. Was in 1993. We were playing the Giants. Exact same situation. Emmett Smith got hurt in the game. We're playing for the NFC title and the number two seed.

[John Holmberg]

Right.

[Dale Hellstray]

And back then, you got to buy.

[John Holmberg]

That was the 13:13 overtime.

[Dale Hellstray]

Went to overtime. And so we kicked a field goal up in the Meadowlands, minus 10 degrees and all that stuff, and just the pressure on everybody to get that thing done. And. Oh, no, the. Oh, the worst sound of long snapper. Worst is no sound.

[John Holmberg]

Nothing.

[Dale Hellstray]

No sound. Yeah. Because it's yours. Yeah. The prime means the ball didn't get to the pun.

[John Holmberg]

That's you.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah. The second worst. The second worst sound is the double thud, which means it got blocked. That's boom.

[John Holmberg]

Boom.

[Dale Hellstray]

And you. Right when you hear that, it's like.

[John Holmberg]

And that's still on you. Something you feel like you were.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm sure the snap wasn't perfect or whatever. And you don't know till tomorrow.

[John Holmberg]

Right, Right. Oh, because you gotta watch. Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

You gotta watch it. You don't know. Somebody blew an assignment, whatever. And. And then obviously the third worst sound is a field goal when the home

[John Holmberg]

team is cheering that Acresher stadium went insane. So as a long snapper, do you think to yourself, where was it? Or do you know when you let it go?

[Dale Hellstray]

Oh, you know, 99% of time, you know, your snap was, it was good and operations seemed fine, perfect.

[John Holmberg]

But it's a push.

[Dale Hellstray]

I'm going to tell you that my last game ever played was in Pittsburgh at that stadium. And I remember the Baltimore field goal kicker. It was a long time. I forget his name now, but longtime Baltimore, that he all kickers hate kicking in Pittsburgh.

[John Holmberg]

Well, back when you, before this kicking ball made everything a lot easier and clearly it did, right? Nobody had ever hit a 50 yarder,

[Dale Hellstray]

you know, but there's something about the, the flags blow one way, but on the field the wind blows.

[John Holmberg]

Here's the better part of Sunday. There was no wind. He just missed it.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, he just broke the hearts of.

[Dave Nash]

How did Boswell's kick go? Just take a right turn.

[John Holmberg]

He missed it too. He said it, he hit it thin.

[Dave Nash]

No, come on, I'm watching the kick. It's, it's headed straight down the middle till it gets about halfway there and then it's like, you know, exit stage right, there it goes.

[John Holmberg]

I, I, I still don't know how it happened, but it did. And the reason it happened was to build more hate for, for the next 55 seconds. That's all it was. 55 seconds.

[Dale Hellstray]

Actually about 10 minutes of real life.

[John Holmberg]

It was painful, painful heart attack time. But 55 seconds of football time, that kick goes out and you're like, oh no, more hate. Must build. They're going to win this game with a field goal and I will have to live with hate. And then they took it away. They gave me back my joy. Hate who's who in your life for sports. Do you have that you, that you actually feel? Everybody's got it, Dave. You feel joy when they stumble and I mean pure, unadulterated pornographic joy.

[Dave Nash]

You've gotta have it. It, it. Unfortunately, I am not that much. Everything, everything's, everything revolves around money.

[John Holmberg]

Okay, that's fine.

[Dave Nash]

Well, listen, I, I can't tell you the last time, you know, I had a big bet on something and someone screwed me over, which happens kind of weekly.

[Dale Hellstray]

Sure.

[John Holmberg]

You know, that's bad. Well, betting, that's just you against you then.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Really? So you don't have anybody in your life like, oh, I love when that

[Dale Hellstray]

guy, how about that guy that was picking up your girlfriend?

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah. We talked about that.

[Dale Hellstray]

What about hate for him in your heart?

[John Holmberg]

Cuz we talked about this when I was mad that my friends from Ohio State weren't celebrating the Michigan mess more.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And. And I thought man, you. This is a bitter moment to be. To take the thing you hate the most and kick and kick and kick. I used to do the Cardinals pregame show and one of the reasons they didn't want me to do it anymore is because when the Cowboys were bad, I said the phrase the prom queen's asleep, let's get her.

[Dale Hellstray]

And. And that's bad.

[John Holmberg]

That's what I said.

[Dave Nash]

What's wrong with that?

[John Holmberg]

Cardinals have been just abused by this beautiful angel and now the time where they're a four win team is in front of you. Keep kicking.

[Dave Nash]

Just never.

[John Holmberg]

52 to 3 is okay.

[Dale Hellstray]

The one thing I will say about you though, because I mean when I played, did we have hate in our heart for certain teams?

[John Holmberg]

Yes.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes. But I had hate in the guys lineup across from me from the time I was 10 years old till 40. But you have a special, a special kind.

[John Holmberg]

I have. Well, it's the joy of hate. Yeah, it's the joy of hate. I believe that without one there is, there is no chance of the other. They are the yin and the yang. They have to exist together to make either valuable.

[Dale Hellstray]

You should come over to one of.

[John Holmberg]

What do you do?

[Dale Hellstray]

What was that face?

[John Holmberg]

We're on film now.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah, yeah, you are on film.

[John Holmberg]

You can't roll your eyes.

[Dale Hellstray]

I mean what I noticed this past week was there there are some fewer people because I think ice is in the valley.

[John Holmberg]

That's not true. I don't hire people to come to the house for games. We did have a lesser crowd, but I think it was just the holidays and everything else. And plus it was a Sunday night and everybody had to go back work on Monday and it was a scary game. The hate, the joy of hate you must experience. And you don't agree with that?

[Dave Nash]

No, I. That definitely is part of being a sports fan.

[John Holmberg]

It's better in life.

[Dave Nash]

Fanatic.

[John Holmberg]

Find someone to hate.

[Dale Hellstray]

Did you hate somebody when you played in high school? Did you hate a pitcher when you played minor league? Did you. Is there one pitcher?

[John Holmberg]

No, you just hate nothing. See now this is crazy to me.

[Dave Nash]

I hate everybody.

[John Holmberg]

Well, there, see? And there. So you like when society is being manipulated and fails, right?

[Dave Nash]

No, actually I don't.

[John Holmberg]

The real matrix is why you're like, hey, no, I reason to hate this group of people.

[Dave Nash]

Why? I care about how everyone else is getting screwed in this life except the, the very elite at the top. I don't know why, but I, but affected by it.

[Dale Hellstray]

He had tears in his eyes today

[John Holmberg]

on his show talking about the Raiders.

[Dale Hellstray]

No. Yeah. Emotional about life, life itself. Dave had tears in his eyes.

[Dave Nash]

No, it's about, about the fact that I know we're jumping off the.

[John Holmberg]

No, you're fine. But show doesn't have a direction.

[Dave Nash]

But you know parents that get their kids vaccinated and then they become autistic.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And they lose their kid in, in the, in a, in a drop of a hat.

[John Holmberg]

Then they become Ravens fans because that's what autistic kids do.

[Dale Hellstray]

Well, if that, has there been a study done on giving, gifting your kids with Raven stuff?

[John Holmberg]

If you, if you, if there's too many vaccines, you automatically become neurodivergent and are attracted to the Baltimore Ravens? Yeah, I, I, it's, I think that's real. I'm going to look into that and be a guest on your Matrix show, the Real Matrix, and I'm going to talk the dangers, the perils of how you're being mistreated with over the counter medicines that will possibly make you a Ravens fan and ruin your life.

[Dale Hellstray]

I'm sitting here thinking, John, the difference of one kick, that if that thing goes through the upright and you lose 27 to 26 serendipity. You, you, your, your head is hung.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

It's cloudy outside. Probably light rain.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

For, for a week.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, more than that.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Because you're done for the year. You know, Mike Tomlin was asked a similar question presser and they said, man, for the difference of one kick, what I mean, the thin margin of error of the line. I mean, what do you think of that? And he goes, if my aunt had male parts, she'd be my uncle. And he left it right there.

[Dave Nash]

So.

[John Holmberg]

Good afternoon, Mike Tomlin. I loved it.

[Dave Nash]

So I'm affected by people that have tragedies happen to him. Yep, you're affected. If your football team loses. That's what it comes down to.

[John Holmberg]

Tragedy in itself. That's, that's, that is my 9 11.

[Dave Nash]

I'm not saying I'm a better person than you, but I'm a better person than you know.

[John Holmberg]

I'll tell you this, and there's a, there's a pretty good case for that. But I will say this. I do think the government's behind every Steelers loss.

[Dave Nash]

We'll have to, we'll have to think about that in the future shows.

[John Holmberg]

I think if you want to go

[Dave Nash]

make that a topic.

[John Holmberg]

The joy of hate is a strong one. And, and there's nothing worse than hating your own team. And I do believe we live in

[Dale Hellstray]

a city where that, what a transition. That's why you get the game.

[John Holmberg]

A lot of cameras make you do that. I think hating your own team breeds some sort of incestuous hate where you actually become some sort of weird bipolar fan. You're not just cheering against and for your opponent, you're cheering against and for your own organization, the Cardinals, who somehow or another through three articles I read today, and as of we taping six vacant NFL jobs, there probably will be eight, maybe a couple more. They're going to sit back and wait for Baltimore. Baltimore's one that is a big one. You know, you can't blame Harbaugh for why they lost that game, but you can blame him for all the times they've been up 10 points and loss.

[Dave Nash]

Sure.

[John Holmberg]

And there's an 100% of those like he's blown 10 point leads in a lot of costly games that end up, you know, earlier in the season, you lose a couple of games, you're like, how'd you, how'd you do that? And it comes back to bite you. You're only 8 and 9. They win one or two of those. And that's true of everybody. But he's got a few that were like, wow, how did the game against Buffalo to start season? They're up 20. I mean this is, this is a, this is a trend for them. So Baltimore is a possibility that, that could very easily.

[Dale Hellstray]

It seems to always be one super surprise. Yeah, I think the one locally Gannon is a little bit of a surprise. Just be, I, I'm, I, I disagree with it being somewhat of a surprise, but for the last two weeks all we've heard is no, he's safe. No, he's safe.

[John Holmberg]

National guys, but yeah, national guys say that because I didn't realize this, that The Cardinals had 300 position moves throughout the season, which is nearly impossible. You got 22 a game.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

That means that at multiple times each position was moved.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes, and the IR and all that. But then you can look just a little bit to the west and up north in the 49ers, but almost as many injuries and maybe more key guys, superstars. Yep, that's what I'm saying. More key guys.

[John Holmberg]

But that means that the guy behind the superstar is probably a starter somewhere

[Dale Hellstray]

else or is the coach or the coach.

[John Holmberg]

And the coaching in the situation is a lot better. Let's get. I mean, the Cardinals have managed as a franchise, and we talked about them earlier this year, being in the laughing stock group. They have managed through what I've read to be the least desirable job for any head coach in the NFL. As it stands as six positions are

[Dale Hellstray]

open right now, I think you got to flip a coin between Vegas and the Cardinals as far as Vegas has the number one overall pick, right?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, yeah. But automatically you got to give them the nod. And the Cardinals history of drafts, that's the thing. Vegas has Max Crosby.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Vegas has. Last year, Genti.

[Dale Hellstray]

Genti.

[John Holmberg]

Cardinals have James Connor. Let's hope he can hang on for another year. The Cardinals have Marvin Harrison, who's like the one that came out for the Cardinals. That is a draw to other free agents than anyone else is Wilson, the receiver this guy is made himself a one. But what's going to be a problem there is Harrison is a one in his mind. And so now you've got receiver divas. You got to.

[Dale Hellstray]

You got a tight end that's probably arguably the best.

[John Holmberg]

Trade them immediately. It's the Herschel Walker thing.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

What are you going to do with a great tight end on a team that doesn't do anything?

[Dale Hellstray]

Right. He caught 120 balls. Yeah. And 125 balls broke every record. And they won three games. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And they won three times, if you watch the count.

[Dale Hellstray]

I went back and watched the Cowboys documentary. I watched the Jerry's World, whatever. And the impetus behind trading Herschel Walker, you know, because everybody's going, he's your only good player. He's your only good player. He's your only good player. You can't trade him. He's the only good player. Well, we're going to suck anyway. Why not try and get assets in return for that one great player?

[John Holmberg]

Essentially, I look at it. When your record's that bad financially, you would say you're broke. What do you have that's valuable?

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Instead of going, we'll just keep running that valuable thing and keep losing money.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And it doesn't make any sense. Trey McBride's the only. They won't do it.

[Dale Hellstray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

Because Arizona has a history of just putting their hooks into something the fans like, whether it's helping them or not. And just like Larry Fitzgerald and. And Shane Doane and so many countless others where they're like, we'll just hang on to these guys because he sells jerseys. Trade him now you've got the third pick and do a real rebuild this guy.

[Dave Nash]

Forget about Buddha Baker. Really good.

[Dale Hellstray]

He's a safety and he's 10 years in.

[John Holmberg]

I was also on a defense that just broke the record for most points given up by a Cardinals team.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah. I mean, so I want to challenge you with this because I think that there's one thing worse than hating your local franchise.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

That's apathy.

[John Holmberg]

Exactly.

[Dale Hellstray]

Not caring.

[John Holmberg]

Irrelevance.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Amongst us.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes. Just not care is worse. Like the Cowboys. People in Dallas right now are hating the Cowboys.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

But they have an emotion about them.

[John Holmberg]

That's true.

[Dale Hellstray]

At some point, Cardinals fans just turn off all emotion. And that's in my mind in sports. I don't care what one you're talking about. That's the worst thing.

[John Holmberg]

100. And they've managed to take Phoenix, Arizona.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And make it in the winter time an undesirable location. How. How do you do it?

[Dale Hellstray]

How?

[John Holmberg]

40 years.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

How do you do it?

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And you do it with the single name that's attached to that team for those 40 years and beyond. The reason they left St. Louis, the reason they left Chicago. Always one thing you can look at, and it's the name Bidwell. And I love the meme I saw on Instagram the other day where it said, hey, President Trump, Cardinal fans would like to ask a favor of you. And it was a picture of Michael Bidwell on a plane in gray sweats and handcuffs with the thing that Maduro. They want him to bust in and just coup the team. You have got to start all over. And the first thing I'll ask both of you, Dave Nash, the gm, what do you do? You. You have to build this team again.

[Dave Nash]

Bring in a coach.

[John Holmberg]

Well, would you sit and say that? Because that's. They've done that five times in seven. No.

[Dave Nash]

We were going to get to who I'd bring in, and there's a couple of guys I would bring. I have one guy and one guy alone who's at the top of my list.

[John Holmberg]

Probably the same. But I'm saying as a franchise owner, besides just hire a coach, what do you think the biggest thing they can

[Dale Hellstray]

do is put in more luxury suites.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Get more money, raise the ticket prices. You've managed to become the Browns of the West. And even the Browns is a more desirable place. When you wake up in Cleveland as a citizen of Cleveland, you're in Cleveland, you know, you're in Cleveland, you expect stuff like the Browns to happen. You wake up in Phoenix, you look around, you're in paradise.

[Dale Hellstray]

Sunshine.

[John Holmberg]

This is amazing. Especially in wintertime in football Season. It's incredible.

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[John Holmberg]

The facility is incredible. The new facility the Cardinals are getting is incredible. And they can't get out of their own way to make people want to come here. The ring of honor is a bunch of guys who were better on other teams

[Dale Hellstray]

or it's good. Yeah. So. So.

[Dave Nash]

So everything starts at the top with leadership.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yep.

[Dave Nash]

And like you said, I mean, here's, you know, they didn't. They have a whole thing going on with people were being treated poorly in

[John Holmberg]

the, oh, lawsuits, never ending stories.

[Dave Nash]

So there you go. So, I mean, what you have is an owner who is just out of touch in with reality of, like, doing good, decent things.

[Dale Hellstray]

So the one thing. And that's one thing that I think, okay, when you say, what's the first thing you do as a general manager? Like in Dallas, people are like, jerry Jones needs to not be the general manager. Okay, let's talk what can be real, realistically done. Michael Bidwell's not selling the team.

[John Holmberg]

He's not going anywhere.

[Dale Hellstray]

Jerry Jones is not selling the team. And when. When he dies, his son's gonna take over, whatever. But for what can you realistically do? Michael Bidwell's the owner.

[Dave Nash]

Right.

[Dale Hellstray]

So. So what can you do? Because in his press conference yesterday, and this is what kind of caught my eye and Steve McCollum's eye, was the fact that Michael pointed out, hey, there's teams that hired coaches within the last three years, which is how long Jonathan Gannon has been here, who are playing this weekend.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

Chicago Bears were horrendous last year.

[John Holmberg]

Bears, Chargers. Another one.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah. You know, you look at that and so finding that right guy to lead because the Head coach can set the foundation for Jacksonville.

[John Holmberg]

Yes. I don't even know the guy's name.

[Dale Hellstray]

Liam. I want to say Liam Nelson. Cohen. Liam Cohen.

[John Holmberg]

The Jacksonville Jaguars have been taken, but it's a dude who showed up and said, I got enough here.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And nobody else could make this work. But I did it.

[Dale Hellstray]

Trevor Lawrence and people were ready to jettison.

[John Holmberg]

Mountain Hunter got hurt. The guy that was the one that was like, here's our new part.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Got hurt When?

[Dale Hellstray]

What, 12 games?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, they're fine.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

So it is culture. It's coaching.

[Dale Hellstray]

Houston, their coach was hired the same year that Gannon was.

[John Holmberg]

Fantastic. So, yes, after those three years, Gannon is a problem. And Gannon as you. You look. We'll get into another segment later called Boy, were we wrong. But we got to give Nash credit because you haven't like Gannon the whole time. At least not. Not to the point where we were giving him as much credit as we were. I still don't blame him for what went on here this year. And don't roll your eyes like that. You're going to hurt yourself.

[Dale Hellstray]

The.

[John Holmberg]

The reason why is because he was just strapped with misery. The injuries didn't help the training staff. There's something wrong with the Cardinals training staff. You can't have that many injuries without looking. And these are not broken legs.

[Dave Nash]

No, no.

[Dale Hellstray]

It's your two. Your last two first round picks, both defensive linemen, both pulled calves before the season.

[John Holmberg]

That's cramping.

[Dale Hellstray]

Before this season, I always used to

[John Holmberg]

wonder why the Cardinals weren't in better shape than teams on the field. Field against them in September and October when they played over at Sun Devil Stadium.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

They seemed gassed in the heat.

[Dale Hellstray]

Well, I will tell you, as a guy who had to go through that in Dallas, when you practice outside every day, which is what we did. Yeah. You don't ever get a chance to really rehydrate. No. You come down from the north for three hours on a Sunday, you cramp when you get back on the plane

[John Holmberg]

the second you get up.

[Dave Nash]

But that.

[John Holmberg]

What they had their camps in Tonazona. They were in pace, they were in beautiful weather. And if they didn't ever.

[Dale Hellstray]

Or.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Or they were in flag. That's right.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

She's in tonnes. They never took advantage of being like the team. Frank Kush used to scream at asu, if you think. You think you're tired. These guys aren't used to the weather.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Mark Malone used to tell me that all the time. He's like, kush Used to destroy us in the heat and say, when we. When it comes to game time, son. And they beat the number one team, USC one year because USC showed up, it was like 108 degrees and Kush had them. So we looked at them at first quarter, standing by, fans pouring water on their heads, and we were like, we're okay. And they beat him. There's no take advantage of. I think the thing that has to change. And Monty Austin Fort the GM of the Cardinals may be the guy. Maybe not. They have to start what I call neck effing the ownership. Whatever he says, just go, yeah, it's a great idea. And then go do whatever you want. Starting with admitting being self aware that this franchise is a joke and no one will come out and say it except one guy. And I wonder if it's the same guy you're thinking of to be the head coach.

[Dave Nash]

No, I don't think so.

[John Holmberg]

Who is it?

[Dave Nash]

Well, I'll tell you who my guy is. Jon Gruden.

[John Holmberg]

That's what I was gonna say. Really? Jon Gruden is the guy that can change everything.

[Dave Nash]

And I agree.

[John Holmberg]

It also makes you sort of a renegade.

[Dave Nash]

Absolutely.

[John Holmberg]

It sort of gets you to get a guy who's louder than the owner, more important than the owner, and is more listened to and respected, even though he's got the thing. And he's also got a double motivation because he wants to shove it right up the backside of the NFL.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right. In a huge way.

[John Holmberg]

Not only win games.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

But I mean, you get John Gruden. Even he may say no, but no coaches are coming to Phoenix.

[Dave Nash]

I am.

[John Holmberg]

No one's coming.

[Dave Nash]

I told someone they. That should be their first call. And when I said that, I said that means the Cardinals will not even pick up the phone for him.

[John Holmberg]

Exactly. Because they're afraid. They're afraid that it's their reputation that for some reason the Bidwell still think

[Dave Nash]

they're afraid or incompetent, one or the other or both.

[John Holmberg]

There's a huge thank you. Remember in the realignment days, 97, 8, something like, I don't remember when they realigned all the divisions. Bill Bedwell, owner of the Cardinals, screamed and yelled that we've got to keep that Cowboys Cardinals rivalry alive. It's one of the best in football. And who came in? Jerry Jones goes, I didn't even know the Cardinals were a rival. I don't care about that. We're just going to keep moving on.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And Jerry Jones told Bill Bidwell, sit down. You think you're a bigger rival than the Eagles, Giants, and at the time, Redskins. Are you kidding me? You're gone. And all it was was a sale. He sold that stadium.

[Dale Hellstray]

Okay, so. And gosh, I kind of like that idea when I hear that name. But I remember three years ago, Sean Payton was available. Yeah. And he came out here, got on a plane and left. Well, is that because again, there's so many things that we'll never know. Go on. In a meeting, maybe.

[John Holmberg]

But Gruden doesn't have any calls coming in. This is huge. And right now he is still in

[Dave Nash]

the middle of a lawsuit.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah, yeah, but so is Wilkes. Wilkes is still coaching the NFL.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. And Brian Flores was in one for a little bit and sat down as the assistant HC in Pittsburgh for a year. Now he's with Minnesota and it's all, all forgot because they got into you've got a perfect situation without realizing. The Kaepernick collusion thing still lingers. And it's real and nobody proved it, but we all knew you can't do that to Gruden because they screwed up in firing him in the first place. And little by little, his name's back in the ring of honor in Tampa. All this stuff that was like, oh, he's the worst person ever. For an email that he just said something terrible about a guy he doesn't like and they made him out to be a racist while they were investigating someone else.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

He was caught in the crossfire of something else and they. He scapegoated right out of whatever nightmare that was. And he's angry.

[Dale Hellstray]

Is my. Is. Is Michael willing.

[John Holmberg]

See, this is where Austin Ford has to come into play and basically say, look, I can go get Raheem Morris. No, Kevin Stefanski is going to listen to everybody else first. Again, there are six openings right now, and this is the least desirable one. So you're going to get who's left.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And it's going to be Raheem Morris and it's going to be some assistant that maybe. Man, it's good.

[Dave Nash]

I'll give you a good second choice, though. Salah from the Niners.

[John Holmberg]

Salah's good, but would he. Would his agent say, hey, remember the Jets?

[Dave Nash]

Well, I get that it's the same thing, but. What. Listen, he might say no to the Cardinals, but the Cardinals should not say no to him.

[John Holmberg]

No, I think. I think the aggressive thing should be. And unfortunately, and this sounds bad, that the Rooney rule keeps it from being obvious that you are in heavy pursuit of one person. You have to Interview multiples and everything else. And that's fine. That's fair enough. So you have to go through the due diligence, which I think is insulting to do to anyone racially to say, okay, we have to interview, even though we have no interest. I'd rather not know. And just say, I know you want Jon Gruden, so leave me alone. I don't want the prom to be a thing where the girl's like, I have to pretend to like you because I want him to know. Did that happen to you a couple times?

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

We'll get into. That's a different show. We're going to the Real Matrix about those broads anyway, so. But, but just put out the word and say, look, we are in the Jon Gruden business and be aggressive. Maybe Gruden's like, I'm not coming back. I'm not coming back. Just say it's a five year job and you are unfairable. You will not be.

[Dale Hellstray]

And we will pay you top dollar.

[John Holmberg]

You are going to get your money you got from The Raiders again, 10 million a year.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Five years. And you cannot be fired. Unless, of course, you do something insane. Possible. And we admit we're a bad franchise and we need you more than you need us. But let's join and be out loud. Admit to the fan base, sorry, we don't know what we're doing. I think this guy does. And we're going to give him that shot because otherwise it's Raheem Morris. Otherwise it's. It's Eberfluss who got fired by the Cowboys. You're going to look at that, that rotating group of dregs.

[Dave Nash]

Listen, I mean, it's Gruden or Salah for me, and I don't even. And if there's someone else out, I love that. Well, because, I mean, you just talked about. They give up more points than anyone. That guy had a great defense with the Jets.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

He leaves.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And they didn't really lose anyone else. And all that defense just went right down the crapper.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, well, they, they have again, that culture in New York ownership.

[Dale Hellstray]

Just like that's Cleveland Cardinals.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

Throw in a mixer frappe and it's the same thing.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, but the, but the bonus with, with Salah. And if you haven't met people who have done something once and then they get a second chance.

[John Holmberg]

Very true. But you get a second chance in the same stew.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

It's a tough one to say. You.

[Dale Hellstray]

You're.

[John Holmberg]

You. You. You just had to make eggs with no eggs.

[Dave Nash]

The second chance he should make, he should make good on is the fact that he's going to do it his way. He was very acquiescent to hey, we need, we need a new quarterback. And we, and, and he took your mind off the list. They had a really good team.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And, and they just had to adjust that. And, and they were like we need to do this yesterday. Just be patient. Be patient.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah, but can you sell that to the Cardinals?

[John Holmberg]

Hey, can you? They're going to be Cardinals to him.

[Dave Nash]

They're going to be more successful immediately. Immediately.

[John Holmberg]

Because immediately.

[Dale Hellstray]

But here's the thing about the NFL again. This year alone, seven different division winners than last year.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

The NFL is set up for you

[John Holmberg]

to go turn it around quick again. No quarterback in the draft. That's going to be a guy who turns a team around.

[Dale Hellstray]

I, I, I, I like the Mendoza kid from Indiana but I don't think he's going to come in life.

[John Holmberg]

He's not because he's got the one thing from watching the last two games against good defenses I noticed is even in the shotgun he takes a three step drop like this dude goes backwards first. That's something you got to train out of him. I think he's got a rocket arm. I think he's a good player. I think he's smart. Everything else. Who's the other, the kid from Vandy, the little loud one that flips everybody off.

[Dale Hellstray]

I like him. Well, that came from Oregon. Dante Jones.

[Dave Nash]

I do not like him.

[John Holmberg]

You don't like the Oregon guy?

[Dave Nash]

No, because he is very young. He hasn't played a lot and if you go back just historically the last couple years or more than that, the more you play in college, the more ready you are and what he's underage first year starting. I think yeah that he's not ready. He might be good eventually. He's not ready right now and that's just be a waste.

[John Holmberg]

You also have the Jon Gruden factor. I'm on this like I, I'm glad you think the same way. The Jon Gruden, he's been running that quarterback camp. He knows Mendoza.

[Dave Nash]

Correct.

[John Holmberg]

I watched him break down Will Howard with Will Howard and I'm like, I think Will Howard might be the greatest quarterback of all time. Like he was so excited and got Will Howard excited. Will Howard's not ready to play yet. He wasn't at all. But you're like he saw something in him and that's the type of guy that is, is hands on with these guys. You can get a fifth round pick and make something out. You can do something correct, find that surprise. You don't go third pick, but you are not selling. If I'm the agent of Robert Sal, I'm like, the last thing I'm doing to you is putting you back in that situation because you'll never be a head coach again. You come to Arizona, you, you get,

[Dale Hellstray]

you get your second shot, you're done, and this is it.

[John Holmberg]

And then, and then you start becoming,

[Dale Hellstray]

you know, undesirable even for a coordinator.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, exactly. And then, and then you're Todd Haley, your coach in high school in San Diego, and then not at all.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And he's got a track record of like, I can do this. I know, but man, you get hit twice.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Where you've got a reputation. Todd Haley's reputation was nobody likes him.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Robert Salas is. Well, you just can't. You're not a head coach. And I don't know how much of a leader you can be.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

I mean, Jonathan Gannon's going to slide in somewhere as a coordinator again or maybe go coach college. And I think he'll be like, okay, good breath, I'm out. Cliff Kingsbury in, in Washington has to be so happy that he's out and they had a rough year, but he's like, I don't care.

[Dave Nash]

He's not a head coach, he's a coordinator.

[John Holmberg]

Right. And that's what we know. But maybe Salah's the same. And if I'm his, if I'm his agent, I'm like, it's a good offer and they're going to throw a lot of money at you because they don't have plans to change that. That.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

John Gruden would change it himself. Jon Gruden's the type of personality that comes in and changes. The last thing the Cardinals need is Salah to come here and find out, oh, he does acquiesce. That's him. When he's the coach, he's like, what does the GM want? What? Acquiesce to the coaches, to the players that get mad. Like you say when coaches come out for a play for a. Or when players come out for a coach after a three win season.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

You just know that he sent him through Cancun school.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes. Right. And so I go back to my playing career in Buffalo. Played for two coaches in two years and two and a half years. Yeah. And they brought in Marv Leaf and Marvel was older. But when you have a more bound franchise, which Cardinals are, the jets are Cleveland, as Buffalo was. And you bring in this, this head coach who's got complete command of the situation and has a plan.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

It changed the direction of everything. We went to the AFC Championship game the next year after we finished the, you know, seven to nine. Yeah. And we went to AFC Championship game, came within one touchdown drive of going to the Super Bowl. Huge. And then, you know, what happened after that. But, boy, I, I, the more I think about, I think Gruden would come

[John Holmberg]

in here, he's his own personality and

[Dale Hellstray]

change the dynamic in the building.

[John Holmberg]

And, and, and in a way Denny Green couldn't and almost did, which was, I'm bigger and louder than anybody else. You can't hear my voice. Michael Bidwell went on TV with that press conference and said, you know, I watch every play in person. I was in a restaurant with you when the game had just ended. I know you don't. And that's the thing that, like you said, irrelevance and apathy are more prevalent in this franchise than anything else because the media didn't even attack him. I did, but the media didn't even attack him for, like, we saw you at a Suns game after an overtime loss to the Titans, that you couldn't have possibly been there.

[Dale Hellstray]

Well, one of the most horrific losses in franchise history, by the way.

[Dave Nash]

It was NFL history.

[John Holmberg]

Disaster.

[Dale Hellstray]

Now, see, Gruden, I think, reminds me a little bit of a Bruce Arians who became bigger than the franchise.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

And the success they had with him, he'd be huge.

[John Holmberg]

I love the Gruden call. I think that's the direction that franchise needs to go. Now, you look at all the other ones, the teams that are out of the playoffs and gets the ones that are in, who do you think you look at right now as the most desirable of the coaching positions of the teams are like, boom, that's close. And what do you think happens? Like, Dave brought up with the Ravens, you got the Lamar's not happy, Joe Burrow and Cincy not happy. And they're going to keep Zach Taylor. You got a lot of stuff. The question marks now that there are, you know, a bunch of teams that are no longer viable that have to start making those decisions now. Where are you looking around? Like, if you're Robert Sala and you're like, the Cardinals are calling, it's like, let's wait.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

What are you looking at?

[Dale Hellstray]

Well, I think the number one guy on everybody's list is going to be Stefanski. Yeah. I think that right now he's the obvious name.

[John Holmberg]

Brian Flores is another one that I would look at for a good, quality team that wants to take a chance.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Those two.

[Dale Hellstray]

But again, you look at Stefanski. So you want to take a year off and just say, I've just been through hell for five years in Cleveland, you know, in Cleveland. So. So who are those? We got the Raiders. We got the Cardinals.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, we got Raiders, Cardinals, Brown, Atlanta, Cleveland. Atlanta's enticing. I think Miami will end up. You talked to Troy, to Aikman, tell you that he's going to go down there in Miami and consult to get rid of McDaniel.

[Dave Nash]

You know, you know, they. I think remorse was just a waste. But the gm. Didn't he get fired too, as he should have? Because, I mean, really, you. You pay a hundred million dollars to a Kurt Cousins who comes a backup quarterback. And actually it was probably a good thing they had it because the other guy gets hurt.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

But what do you have at quarterback in Atlanta right now?

[John Holmberg]

Right.

[Dave Nash]

You don't have anything.

[John Holmberg]

But they were 8 and 9 and you got Bijan Robinson and you do have a young guy who you drafted eighth overall, which was. Which was the mess that you made with Kirk Cousins, which is, hey, we're going to build this team around you. We're going to give you $100 million and your first pick is the guy that's going to replace you. And he was an 8, which tells you immediately, it's like, yeah, you got a lot of money, but this kid has to play soon.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

That. Didn't they just. That was. That GM should have been fired the next.

[Dave Nash]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

So the fact that that last. That's the most appealing job to me is Atlanta because they do have decent players. You're a couple years away. If you get the right.

[Dale Hellstray]

And their. And their division is not going to

[John Holmberg]

be 8, 9 wins it every year. I don't even know how this is happening. But yeah. And they almost won it because.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes. At their late, late, late season flurry. But that's the other thing that nobody really talks about. If you're desirable.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

If you have a couple different job opportunities and you take a look at the Cardinals and you go, hold on, there's Seattle. Yeah. There's the Rams and there's San Francisco in your division. They all won 12 games. Now, I'm sure San Francisco probably regressed a little bit. We keep thinking they're going to regress, but you're nine games out of third place, not first out of third place.

[John Holmberg]

That's not good.

[Dale Hellstray]

It's not like, oh, hey, we were. There were 6 and 11 and you know, hey, we got some.

[Dave Nash]

Well, listen, I don't know what the under over is going to be on the. I just think, you know, wins and losses next year for the Cardinals. But I'm going to go over whatever the number is because it's going to be five, whatever, even if it's six or seven.

[John Holmberg]

That down on Gannon's coaching.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah. Well, that was a mess. And they were competitive last year.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Going into this year, everyone said, oh, they got a young team and they're this and they're that and they can do this and they can do that. Same guys, they. They just. Everyone just pooped their pants and quit.

[John Holmberg]

That is true. He did not motivate them to stay around that were.

[Dave Nash]

They were packing it in.

[Dale Hellstray]

Okay, so rank them. We forgot the Giants.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah, the Giants.

[Dale Hellstray]

The Giants have an open job.

[John Holmberg]

That's a good job.

[Dave Nash]

That's a great job.

[John Holmberg]

You got a young quarterback, got exciting young players. Defense has a couple.

[Dale Hellstray]

You got a wide receiver, you got a couple defensive guys. And then Cleveland, Atlanta, Cardinals, Tennessee and the Raiders.

[John Holmberg]

See, I look at. I look at the Giants is probably the quickest one you can fix. I don't know. Jackson darts as good as everybody says. He's just fun. Maybe he's good.

[Dave Nash]

It was a rookie Jackson dart.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, I know he's good. I just don't know that he's. He's that, you know, holy cow guy. He's good.

[Dave Nash]

I love everything about it. Big guy, can run, can throw, very poised.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, he's. I'm in. He's got everything except the extra to me. I watch.

[Dave Nash]

What's the extra?

[John Holmberg]

I don't know. He just doesn't have that thing where you're like, all right, put it in his hands and I trust him.

[Dale Hellstray]

But you look at it, it's the

[John Holmberg]

Bo Nix thing to me. Big arm, big guy, everything else, and you're like, but you don't have that thing. And if the game actually Bo Nix

[Dave Nash]

has that thing because they keep winning

[John Holmberg]

games in Tim Tebow fashion. He has that thing. His defense is dead. Look, their, their offense is bad. He had less than 200 yards passing the last two games. They're not good. And that's their. The big knock on the Broncos as a number one seed is they did it despite their offense. And the Giants are, you know, look, there's argument to be made that Jackson dart might be really good. I'm not seeing that as an immediate fix where the coach comes in, just shores up some line stuff.

[Dave Nash]

I'm buying in the jack start.

[John Holmberg]

I can see all in.

[Dave Nash]

I'm telling you right now. So you can, you can, you can.

[John Holmberg]

Here we go again with the. Sam Dalton yells.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

And then you look at the NFC east and you go, okay, there's. There's the commanders, Cowboys and Eagles, and they're all just above mediocre.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

Again, so you would think the. The.

[John Holmberg]

It's a good job. It's a good job. It's the most secure of all.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Out there. I think Atlanta's second and then the rest are just like dice on the ground. Except Arizona is clearly last. I think Cleveland is a job you can look at and go, that's a great defense. O lines. Okay. Quarterback's a mess. Running back might be something.

[Dale Hellstray]

I think it's the Raiders. Cardinals at the bottom of the heat. But the Raiders have. Tom Brady's going to start taking over some things.

[John Holmberg]

Well, whether that works or not, their

[Dave Nash]

home games are away games.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

I just. There's nothing I like about the Raiders.

[John Holmberg]

I was there for the Steelers and Raiders game last year and it was ridiculous. I mean, it was. It was a Steelers game.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

It was black and gold. Every. It was loud.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And I felt sorry for the Raiders fans. I just. I honestly did. I'm like, this is no good. And they weren't terrible. They weren't good, but they were. They got beat up all over the field.

[Dale Hellstray]

But the other thing everybody talks about Tom Brady. Well, John Elway ran the deal. If he didn't get lucky and get Peyton Manning for a couple years, it's.

[John Holmberg]

That to me is those. Are those goofs where. I don't know. You're just looking at a guy and you're hoping that his magic just. It applies with just a touch. Magic Johnson tried to coach the Lakers and he's like, we don't see what you see. Like, you're different. Stop coaching. Just coach like a coach can coach.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And he wanted to do that. Now we get into the teams that are in the playoffs and we start looking around and I agree. I agree. I think there are multiple frauds. I don't know anything about some of these teams because nobody's paid attention to. They have no history. They have this year.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Starting with the Jacksonville Jaguars, who again, like you said, Trevor Lawrence is out. Who cares? He's done. We're probably going to get rid of him. They get. Travis Hunter, doesn't even play the season. Etienne was Looking at, like, running back. Maybe he's a bus. They go get a new coach this year because this thing's on its last leg and they go out not only win the division, but start beating people up. And that last game, oh, yeah, it was the Titans. They had them down 28. Beat tar out of a bad team, which good teams do. Really good teams go, all right, we're supposed to beat them. And then they do it.

[Dave Nash]

They are an underdog this week.

[John Holmberg]

How?

[Dave Nash]

Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm betting them.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, I would take that. I don't know what the points are.

[Dave Nash]

They're just getting one half. But they're at home from Buffalo. But. But listen, everyone keeps waiting for Buffalo to like that. Turn the magic on.

[John Holmberg]

Maybe it's not there.

[Dave Nash]

No. Without Josh Allen, I think that team is marginal at best.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

At best.

[John Holmberg]

This is the most true it's ever been that. They say the records go out the window for the playoffs. Everybody's. Oh, and.

[Dale Hellstray]

Oh, well, the thing is, think about this. And I. I said this a month ago. I said, so whether it was going to be Denver in the top seed, whether it be New England in the top seed, they were battling if Buffalo and. Or if Kansas City even had snuck in.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

And they played the first round. Are you picking Denver or New England?

[John Holmberg]

No, in Denver, with that offense. But the problem is Buffalo's defense is not great. So they see each other. I'm not really worried that Denver's offense is going to hurt them. Too bad because you're going to look at the strength against strength and the weakness against weakness. It's going to balance itself.

[Dale Hellstray]

It's just my brain is so used to seeing other teams in there.

[John Holmberg]

Exactly. And usual suspects aren't there.

[Dale Hellstray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

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[Dale Hellstray]

And there's. And there's two schools. Denver's either been just really good down the stretch in fourth quarters. They know. Or they've had luck on their side. Does that run out?

[John Holmberg]

I see them as a Fraud. I see them as a fraudulent, especially as a one seed fraud. Jacksonville is less of a fraud, but still takeable. I look at the Texas, the game I do not want to watch at all is the Texans and Broncos. If they end up matching up, that is, it's going to be 6 to 3 and it's going to be a sucky 6 to 3 if they can manage to make that worse. Just their two defenses and their offenses are very takeable. But my Steelers are a drunk uncle. My Steelers are drunk uncle. I'm not saying they can go far, but they can make noise.

[Dale Hellstray]

Well, they can win the first round.

[John Holmberg]

Not supposed to be there. They've got Aaron Rodgers sitting there. Who when he.

[Dave Nash]

They're at home getting at least three a field goal.

[John Holmberg]

They're getting, they're getting at home.

[Dave Nash]

They are disrespectful teams.

[John Holmberg]

The coach is out. He's no good anymore. The defense is. You watch that defense. Zero in and they started playing and Derek Henry had a great first. They adjusted.

[Dale Hellstray]

What do you have 90 yards in the first half?

[Dave Nash]

Over 100.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, it was over 100 yards in the first half and he broke the first play for 40. So you look at that and you're like, drunk uncle's here. What are you doing here? Next thing you know, the party's closing up and drunk uncle's still standing there. This is the year a drunk uncle can make noise. Carolina is the drunk uncle over in the NFC because they're not capable of winning three in a row. I don't think Steelers are either capable of winning three games in a row against this quality, but they sure can mess stuff up. And I think that's where it all gets back to Bill's Eagles. Rams, those are the ones that you're like, we'll take care of drunk uncle.

[Dale Hellstray]

He's gonna shock us, right?

[John Holmberg]

You guys are brand new. You're not welcome here yet. And in the end, when you look, if drunk uncle throws elbows and knocks out, accidentally knocks out, you know, one of these new teams, right? Then there's the Bills, Rams, Eagles are all sitting there.

[Dale Hellstray]

And now if Pittsburgh is going to Houston, I'd say no chance.

[John Holmberg]

I was, I would think same no chance. But in Pittsburgh.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And first time in playoffs with, you know, this kind of new setup. I mean, they were there last. What was it last year?

[Dale Hellstray]

The year before, Right.

[John Holmberg]

When Stroud was a rookie and they played well. They're a good team and that defense is outstanding. But they're going on the road and we'll see how they. We'll see how they perform there. It's a really interesting playoff this year.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Really is. Because nobody's great.

[Dave Nash]

Well, I love the Rams and I've already bet them to win the Super Bowl.

[John Holmberg]

I think the Rams are the one that. But again, they stumbled so much towards the end of the season. They didn't even look good in that Cardinals game. And the Cardinals end up handing it back to them. They gave that thing away in the third quarter. I think they were looking at each other like, what's going on? Carolina beat them a couple weeks ago and they got to play Carolina to start. That's the drunk uncle. Carolina knocks the Rams out. San Francisco all of a sudden doesn't have that tough a path. Receding changes everything. Especially if Carolina goes, hey, we're here and you knock the Rams out. Now San Francisco's going to scoot you around. You got different seeds and they might end up with a home game if another drunk uncle situation happens. It's very weird to me that the bad teams are so dismissed this year because. Or bad.

[Dale Hellstray]

The bad playoffs games.

[John Holmberg]

Yes, they're so dismissed this year because I don't look at the top tier as all that great.

[Dale Hellstray]

I mean, do you trust the Bears as the number two seed?

[John Holmberg]

Not at all.

[Dale Hellstray]

You know, the number two seed. And again, it's because you've seen them recently in the last couple of years, just the Packers.

[John Holmberg]

Don't let him off the hook. No, the packers will beat them. I think the packers will beat them because they beat them earlier in the year and they pretty much beat him in that last game and then that onside kick and then magic happened and you don't get that twice. No, I don't see that happen now. Maybe. Maybe they surprise us, but I don't see the Bears being a team that you really have to be serious. They're a year ahead of schedule. The way I look at them, and especially as a two seat. It's really weird, though.

[Dale Hellstray]

Well, there was a team in 1992, oh, here we Cowboys. Who. Everybody said we're a year or two ahead of schedule.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, well, that's true. And you can scooch in there and maybe be that if you're still playing,

[Dale Hellstray]

you have a chance.

[John Holmberg]

You didn't have a lot of warts on that team.

[Dale Hellstray]

But we were young.

[John Holmberg]

But you'd been through it as a team and you had the same coach three years in a row. I don't know. Maybe.

[Dale Hellstray]

Maybe it'll be interesting.

[John Holmberg]

Maybe we'll see. But I Don't see that happening. But I do love one thing about this playoff and that's that the Ravens are at home watching. And again, I'm floating still the hate of my heart lives forever and ever

[Dale Hellstray]

the Ravens and Chiefs both not being there.

[John Holmberg]

Let's talk about how wrong we were.

[Dale Hellstray]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

Now, Dale, you and I both thought the Cardinals would win the NFC West. That is the most egregious and embarrassing l the two of us.

[Dale Hellstray]

I bet the over and I think it was seven and a half.

[John Holmberg]

I completely remember going absolutely season nine or ten win team. I didn't trust the Niners. I didn't. I didn't know Seattle was anything.

[Dale Hellstray]

I didn't think. I think. I didn't think Stafford and LA was even going to play.

[John Holmberg]

I thought the Rams were kind of like, ah, they got to work that quarterback thing out. This is the year the Cardinals can steal it.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes. Way I think I looked at my draft kings bet and I think it was already off the board like middle of October.

[John Holmberg]

And then you look over at the AFC and everybody had Ravens. I mean an absolute runaway after last year. I think all of us said that nobody saw obviously the injuries, but nobody saw when they came back from injury that the Steelers would go five and one down the stretch and they would struggle. They're two and three. I mean that was crazy, right? So I think the thing I'm most embarrassed at is the Cardinals.

[Dale Hellstray]

I think it was most. My most egregious.

[John Holmberg]

Ms. Dave, I think you. I don't know if I think on the mvp we all went around Saquon Barkley and Patrick Mahomes.

[Dave Nash]

I said Jordan Love. I was, I was riding the Packers.

[John Holmberg]

You had the pack all the way. Micah Parsons thing. That's right. Yeah, that's right.

[Dave Nash]

Riding the packers the whole way in.

[John Holmberg]

That's true. And that's not terrible. Still could it.

[Dale Hellstray]

I.

[Dave Nash]

Listen I, I thrown it away.

[John Holmberg]

You get a little. But you didn't have anything that was really bad. I don't think none of us ever.

[Dale Hellstray]

None of us talked one minute about Denver or New England.

[John Holmberg]

We all had the Chiefs winning that still and saying they're back. Don't worry about it. This is their last run but they're done. Boy, we didn't know that New England

[Dale Hellstray]

v Nobody first year.

[Dave Nash]

Listen, I was, I was the one that said I, I would love to bet New England to come in second and they're going to make the playoffs.

[John Holmberg]

I thought the Bills, I didn't know

[Dave Nash]

they were going to like win 100 games.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. I thought the Bills were going to walk away with that division with New England as a playful two.

[Dave Nash]

Correct.

[John Holmberg]

Because you had the jets and that. We knew. And we all kind of thought the Jets. I went back and we weren't so down on the idea of the Jets. Their defense was strong and Justin Fiskin, boy, he's going to get cut. And then. And then you just start looking around. We didn't see Indianapolis. We didn't see Jacksonville.

[Dale Hellstray]

No. Nobody even mentioned Jacksonville.

[John Holmberg]

I think we all mentioned.

[Dave Nash]

No one has even mentioned them right now. They're in the playoffs. They want. I don't even know if the commentators know they're in the playoffs yet. Somebody make a call.

[John Holmberg]

We all kind of thought the Eagles were maybe okay, but would there's a chance they'll run.

[Dale Hellstray]

We thought the NSC east. Maybe the Cowboys had a shot. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

You know what my bet was Saquon Barkley to get 2,300 yards from scrimmage. Oh,

[Dave Nash]

did he get. Did he get 23 yards? He got 23. Good job.

[John Holmberg]

So there's the fun of this and the best part about what we were wrong about. And we were wrong about almost every division. If we're not going back, I'm like, my God, we missed.

[Dale Hellstray]

If you look well, seven new division winners.

[John Holmberg]

All afc. We. We missed all of it. Even me. I didn't pick the Steelers to win. And I'm normally completely Homer weirdo. The nfc. We got the Eagles right. He got the Rams right. And they didn't even win it. But Seahawks. But you got them to at least get to the top of that. I don't think we even picked the NFC South. Who cares?

[Dale Hellstray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

And then, you know, we were bad.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

This show has no real bearing after its first full season as a show. There's really no reason we are you to do. We are you. And let's talk a little college football before we get out of here. College football playoffs here. I'm happy again. I hate Ohio State. So I. I loved watching Miami.

[Dale Hellstray]

How was your partner after that?

[John Holmberg]

He's fine. You know what he said after that, my friend? He's a big Ohio State fan. Brady. And he said we beat Michigan. And that's all he said. I was like, all right. So that still doesn't matter anymore. Like it used to.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right?

[John Holmberg]

You didn't knock him out of anything or it didn't propel you to anything else. In the old days, you beat Michigan. You won. That's gone to the Rose bowl and won it. And then somebody would have chosen Them national champions.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Which would have happened. That would have happened in the old. In the old way. Ohio State is your national champion, and we're talking about that right now.

[Dave Nash]

Ohio State's gonna have their hands full next year with Michigan. That new coach.

[John Holmberg]

Well, good man. Ohio State is. Is got their hands full without the Brian Hartline thing. And that showed up in that Miami game that Ryan Day was calling the plays and they just went out of rhythm. Ryan Day made a big mistake not letting Brian Hartline keep calling. Keep it the same. Keep the voice in the quarterback's ear the same. Especially because that kid for the Ohio State is really good.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

But he's. You gotta remember, he's like, what, 21, 22 years old. Change is weird to young people. Like, this is working. Don't screw it up. They went to that. Miami just beat the tar out of them. And Miami wouldn't have even been in the conversation the old way. So you do have to like the playoff being the way it is.

[Dale Hellstray]

Fascinating about Ohio State is that a year ago, after they lost in Michigan, they're ready to fire day.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

They're ready to fire Day. And then they.

[John Holmberg]

I thought the national championship wouldn't be enough.

[Dale Hellstray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

The way they lost to Michigan.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

A 500 team. I mean, it was so bad.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

I loved it. I love every second of it.

[Dale Hellstray]

And talk about the playoff. Two. Two teams I'm rooting for are Ole Miss.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

Just because of all the nonsense. And as a former player, I would want to stick it to the coach, to the. To what's his face who went to lsu. I would want so bad to win.

[John Holmberg]

I do love that they just said, get out.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, you're not coaching. But I would want so bad to stand up on that podium.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

And go, this is for you, Kiff.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. He's going to get the trophy, Right. If they win it.

[Dale Hellstray]

Oh, I don't have. No. Is he going to get. Is he. Will he actually make a ring for himself?

[Dave Nash]

He's going to get a big bonus.

[John Holmberg]

Yes, he would get.

[Dale Hellstray]

Well, LSU is covering that, supposedly. And then. Come on. Come on. Bloomington, Indiana. Are you. Are you serious?

[John Holmberg]

So who do you have in the. The final. The Final Four? Indiana's taken on Oregon. Oregon. And I don't know what to trust about that. And then, of course, Miami and Ole Miss. Give me your two.

[Dale Hellstray]

I would love. I'm cheering for Indiana and Ole Miss.

[John Holmberg]

Okay.

[Dale Hellstray]

I think Indiana does beat.

[John Holmberg]

I think they will.

[Dale Hellstray]

I don't know if Ole Miss Beef Miami.

[John Holmberg]

After watching Miami, it's Ohio State. That's a scary defense. That's that old 90s.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yes. That's physical.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Dave, I like Mississippi in an upset and I like Indiana.

[John Holmberg]

Mississippi, Indiana. Yeah. I don't even want to be betting them, like from a fashion standpoint, I don't even want to watch those uniforms hit each other. Yeah, I like.

[Dave Nash]

I'll tell you, I'll tell you the reason why I like you said you like Miami because what we'll look at that defense. How good that defense is. How good that defense is. The under over in that game is 51 and a half.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

That means Vegas is saying they're going to be scoring points. They'll hit some points so that, so that that Miami defense, not really counting on that.

[John Holmberg]

51 and a half's like 30 to 21. And you can see three touchdowns going in college and still call it good defensive showing, man.

[Dave Nash]

No, but I mean it's not going to be like the 1410.

[John Holmberg]

It won't be the blow.

[Dave Nash]

No, no, no. And Mississippi can score and that's a different team. That's a different great match, different team.

[Dale Hellstray]

And then by the way, Charlie Weiss, the offensive coordinator is still there, right?

[John Holmberg]

Former head coach. Like the guy knows his way around some stuff and he's.

[Dale Hellstray]

He's calling plays.

[Dave Nash]

No, it's just, it's his kid.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, I thought it was Charlie.

[Dave Nash]

That is his kid.

[Dale Hellstray]

It is.

[Dave Nash]

I think so.

[John Holmberg]

Maybe Charlie wife might not even be alive.

[Dave Nash]

Sorry. Well, if I'm wrong, whatever if you're

[John Holmberg]

wrong either way, I'm not.

[Dave Nash]

I'm expecting you to be wrong though.

[Dale Hellstray]

No, it could be.

[John Holmberg]

I don't know. I know the name Charlie Weiss too. I thought it was the same big old fat dude.

[Dave Nash]

No, I think it's his son. And then in the Indiana game, the under over. Under is 47 points. Oregon scores a lot of points. Yeah, that's a low under over for them. That's Vegas saying, you know, we think, we think Indiana is going to be shutting them down. So for those reasons, Vegas knows more.

[John Holmberg]

Vegas does no more.

[Dave Nash]

I like Indiana in that game and I like Mississippi.

[Dale Hellstray]

I'm cheer for Kurt Signetti. I mean the guy has lost one. I saw a graphic on the. In the last playoff game where Alabama's been ranked number one like 150 weeks over their history. Indiana has been ranked number one one week and this guy comes in there from James Madison, has lost one game in two years.

[John Holmberg]

It's incredible.

[Dale Hellstray]

Bloomington, Indiana basketball. Yes.

[John Holmberg]

I don't even think about football. Antoine Randle Elle is the best player

[Dale Hellstray]

that's ever played there and the best thing. They kept showing his introductory press conference, and he looks at the camera and goes, I win everywhere I've been. Google me.

[John Holmberg]

I like Indiana because I'm from Indiana. I can't imagine how crazy they're going right now. But Indiana is all about heartbreak. It is. I mean, look at the Pacers last year and they're just piling it on. So it is a rough one. I can't go with Indiana because I just can't. They're used to disappointment. They. The mirrors in Indiana remind you every

[Dave Nash]

day, hey, you should Google Signetti, then.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, just Google. He wins everywhere he goes, and I'm. I'm hoping they pull it off. But I see Miami and mainly because they're just such a classy operation. Michael Irvin, boy, watching him. Your buddy Michael, well, he gets in

[Dale Hellstray]

some positions that I got in those nowadays, I wouldn't be able to get up.

[John Holmberg]

How in the world is he allowed to just roam the sidelines and talk to the players? Come on. He's. He was Michael Irvin.

[Dale Hellstray]

You're always Michael Ern.

[John Holmberg]

Stand over there and you show some respect to the coaches. He still doesn't do that. He's running up to players and talking to him like, isn't that illegal? Can't. That's got to be against the rules.

[Dale Hellstray]

If he's handling them well, you can hand him money. Now,

[John Holmberg]

let's get right to the last thing I want to talk about locally, especially the Phoenix Suns. Go ahead. And Sunday night last week beat up the Oklahoma City Thunder right here in Phoenix. Nobody saw that coming. They've competed with them in an earlier game, lost it barely, and then got blown out by Oklahoma City when they had Booker on the bench and stuff. But the other night they played the full 48. They look good doing it. Hit a buzzer beater at the end and I think Oklahoma City's like, what is going on? People have our number. It's weird. Like. Like San Antonio took the. Like kind of smacked the invincibility off of them. And teams are now kind of playing with them. It was bound to be a lull in this 26 and one start.

[Dale Hellstray]

You're not going 78 and four and

[John Holmberg]

they're six and five through their little lull, which isn't horrible, but the sun's. Then they next night to Houston.

[Dale Hellstray]

The next night. Next night after flight problems.

[John Holmberg]

Play them tight, play them really well. Have the lead through most of the game. Fourth quarter gets a little tight end of the game. Kevin Durant. It's a three pointer, 1 for 11 from the three point line up till that point. Hits the three pointer at the end. And then in the press conference after says like a bitter ex girlfriend. You know, I didn't ever want to leave Phoenix. I got, I pushed out. They kicked me out. It's first place I've ever been kicked out.

[Dale Hellstray]

And I don't want to be too dramatic about it.

[John Holmberg]

And I don't want to be dramatic about it, but it's tough when you're the scapegoat for somebody's problems. And I'm like, oh my God, is your therapist next to you at the press conference? Calm down. Kevin Durant is an energy vampire. The Suns were so exciting against Oklahoma City. And it was up on a second TV at my house. We're watching the Steelers game. He still looked up there like, this team is a blast.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right?

[John Holmberg]

Watching that Houston game, Kevin Durant sucked all the life off the floor. It is. It was just like watching him last year and he's on another team and I'm like, he does it to the whole game.

[Dave Nash]

Isn't he the guy that has a burner phone that would kd. Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

Oh, had a burner phone for Twitter.

[Dave Nash]

And he would, he would. Right? So come on.

[John Holmberg]

He's a dramatic lady, but he is also a guy who just literally drains the room of all its energy and then shoots it back.

[Dale Hellstray]

The difference is in Houston, he has more talent around him than he had in Phoenix. Phoenix. But I just, as I said this going into this season, I said I just want the Suns to be fun to watch.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

I expect them to win 45, 50 games.

[John Holmberg]

You're getting that.

[Dale Hellstray]

But they are busting their humps. And now some trade rumors come out. Hey, Dylan Brooks for Austin Reeves. And it's like, what are you doing? What?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, don't help your. Yeah, silly. Just leave this as is. You're not ready for any next move.

[Dale Hellstray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

Let this team gel and go get you.

[Dale Hellstray]

Still haven't maybe your first best player, but definitely second best player. Hasn't even played.

[John Holmberg]

You didn't even make a trade. Because Jalen Green will come back later. Before we get into the crazy person's last five minutes, the five minutes with a madman, how many Patriots will be arrested this week before the game? We have a number on that. And over under on Patriots who will have indictments or accusations. We're currently at 2.

[Dave Nash]

Aren't they already?

[John Holmberg]

They.

[Dave Nash]

They're all. They've all been indicted. Is there anyone left that hasn't been indicted?

[John Holmberg]

Probably. And then the other guy who was abuse and battery and all that. So let's get a couple more patriots as owners Count. Oh, no. He's nuts. You know what, though? I'm with him on that. Should never be illegal. Okay. What he was doing was just relaxing.

[Dale Hellstray]

Aren't you? If you're a multibillionaire, yeah. Aren't you bringing somebody to the house?

[John Holmberg]

I'm certainly not driving my turquoise Rolls Royce to the massage.

[Dave Nash]

Are you bringing someone to the house when you're married? Isn't he married?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

You send your wife to the aisles.

[John Holmberg]

It's a huge house.

[Dale Hellstray]

She doesn't even know what come in the background.

[Dave Nash]

Come around the back.

[John Holmberg]

He's got an AC Mini split in his garage, so it's cool in there. And plus, he's up in Boston.

[Dale Hellstray]

It's probably.

[John Holmberg]

No, it's just to open a window. The garage is probably nicer than most of our homes.

[Dale Hellstray]

Can you imagine? You're driving around your blues, whatever it was Rolls Royce and saying, I'm pulling this strip center.

[John Holmberg]

But he was. She passed away years ago. I think he's been single.

[Dave Nash]

Okay, then if that's the case, I mean, hey.

[John Holmberg]

But then Dale's more correct. Like, just get a tug at home.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right?

[John Holmberg]

I was more impressed that he was 80 and still capable of such things.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah. Well, hey, can you imagine him haggling?

[Dave Nash]

Sounds like he's a patient.

[Dale Hellstray]

I want. I want $100. I only got 80.

[John Holmberg]

I can't do that for you. Let's sound.

[Dave Nash]

Sounds like he's a patient at Summit Male Medical Center.

[John Holmberg]

It could be. You know what?

[Dave Nash]

Tell you what. We'll have.

[John Holmberg]

She have to needle him up and then go to town.

[Dave Nash]

Yep. Whatever. Because I tell you what.

[John Holmberg]

With all the hate in my heart to go full circle, let's hope that Robert Kraft does that again through these playoffs.

[Dave Nash]

Why not?

[Dale Hellstray]

Are they the team you hate the second most, or is it not even a close second more?

[John Holmberg]

They were the evil empire for a while.

[Dale Hellstray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

I watched Ben Roethlisberger talk about that a lot. And he just flat out says it. And he goes, it was obvious that they were doing all sorts of terrible stuff. Tony Dungeon. Peyton Manning said, we never had meetings in the locker room. We go in the bathroom in the hallway. Because if we had to do a.

[Dale Hellstray]

They were in so many people's minds. Well, and there

[John Holmberg]

were also definitely recording conversations and new things they shouldn't know.

[Dave Nash]

If you're not cheating. You're not. Is that against the rules?

[John Holmberg]

Well, you just said that was bad for Robert Kraft. Why is it good for football?

[Dave Nash]

I didn't say it was bad for Robert Kraft. You asked me, is anyone going to get arrested? Yeah, maybe.

[John Holmberg]

Well, you say if you're not cheating, you're not trying to. But you can't have the massage girl over to the house.

[Dale Hellstray]

I'm for the house. Just don't go.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, you certainly don't drive to.

[Dave Nash]

I'm for more power to him. Like you said.

[John Holmberg]

Over. I've got. They're waiting in the hallway. We'll do it here at work. All right, let's do it. That's the end, basically. Sort of, except for not. We'll say goodbye. Dale and I will say goodbye and leave the last five minutes to the madman for me. John Holmerg, 98, KUPD. You can check me out there, Dale Hell street, three time world champion and co host of the main event with Steve McCollum right there. You can check that out. TME tv.com TME sports show on. When will I get it right? Yeah, I need a cue.

[Dale Hellstray]

A couple more.

[John Holmberg]

I need a cue card. We're done. Now it's five minutes with a madman. Dave Nash, take it away.

[Dave Nash]

I don't need five minutes.

[Dale Hellstray]

I.

[John Holmberg]

You say that every week.

[Dave Nash]

Well, you guys keep answering. You guys keep egging me on. If you think that the daycare issues in Minnesota are the only issues of fraud you're going to find in America, I have some oceanfront property to sell you in North Dakota because you're totally out of your. You're totally goofy. That's it. That's it. That's it.

[John Holmberg]

You're not like against the idea of the fraud. You just. What is the. Is it worse?

[Dave Nash]

No, I'm. Again, it's. It's going to be worse in California. It's going to be worse in, in, in the, in the, in the states that have been carrying on with fraud all over the place in regards to

[John Holmberg]

unemployment and, and the fraud you're talking about is the Somalian daycare centers that were being funded by the government and they didn't really exist and didn't even

[Dale Hellstray]

know how to spell learning.

[John Holmberg]

Couldn't spell learning on this. Yeah, that's the big. That's funny to me. There's hilarious scandals.

[Dale Hellstray]

Except for that place. Except for that place got over $3 million in funding.

[John Holmberg]

Yes, that's secondary. But for 3 million bucks, I don't know where the R is either.

[Dale Hellstray]

How about this how about this? If you voted for a guy to be the mayor of Phoenix and he's. And he insisted on being sworn in with his hand on the Quran.

[John Holmberg]

Well. Oh, boy.

[Dale Hellstray]

How do you feel now we're going to another. How do you feel about that? How do you feel about them apples?

[Dave Nash]

This is a Christian country born with Christian values and Christian ideas. Although I will tell you this.

[John Holmberg]

If.

[Dave Nash]

If. If the guy's not Christian and he's. Whatever.

[Dale Hellstray]

Well, whatever he is Muslim, you better.

[Dave Nash]

You want him to swear on what

[John Holmberg]

he believes beautiful things about this country is our freedom of and from religion. And that's what it says.

[Dale Hellstray]

I understand that, but I want my leaders to have the United States. As in first but the foremost and

[John Holmberg]

all because as an atheist, I put my end in. The Bible might as well be an encyclopedia.

[Dale Hellstray]

But is the United States most important to you?

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

Okay. You're not putting your hand on.

[Dave Nash]

You're not putting your hand on the Bible or the Quran. You would put your hand on the Pittsburgh Steeler playbook.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, my God. Right.

[Dale Hellstray]

But it's the United States.

[Dave Nash]

There you go.

[Dale Hellstray]

You know, you're not putting your hand on the U.S. whatever the Russia thing is.

[John Holmberg]

Put it on something else. If I put the Bible in front of me, I'd do it for show.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

But it does not mean anything.

[Dave Nash]

But you're not.

[Dale Hellstray]

But you're not allegiancing yourself to a foreign country.

[John Holmberg]

No, no.

[Dale Hellstray]

But you would not as a. Not as a.

[John Holmberg]

No. Freedom from.

[Dave Nash]

And.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. You don't have to. You don't have to have any religion.

[Dave Nash]

Dale, he's Satan. What do you expect?

[John Holmberg]

Satan's also part of religion. Don't believe in him either.

[Dave Nash]

I know. I. Well, if you don't believe in him. Well, you're right.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right.

[Dave Nash]

Because with. If you believe in God, you gotta believe in Satan.

[Dale Hellstray]

Right?

[Dave Nash]

You don't believe me.

[John Holmberg]

You hate in your heart. You have to have it.

[Dale Hellstray]

I am. I am more.

[John Holmberg]

They must exist. They can't. They can't not exist.

[Dale Hellstray]

I don't care. The God and Satan isn't the thing. It's United States.

[John Holmberg]

Sure, I'm with you on that.

[Dale Hellstray]

Over a foreign country who does not like us.

[John Holmberg]

But I don't want to argue with you that that's not a foreign country.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah.

[Dale Hellstray]

Muslim.

[Dave Nash]

No, it's. That's just a religion that's everywhere.

[Dale Hellstray]

Sorry.

[John Holmberg]

Five minutes of the Mad Men turn into Dale beating the mud. All right, we're done. Thank you for hanging out here. We'll see you next time.

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