S E24: The Sports Thing Podcast w/Holmberg, Hellestrae And Nash - Episode 24 - 01-29-26

Summary

The Sports Thing Podcast w/ Holmberg, Hellestrae & Nash

Episode 24 – February 2, 2026
Main Theme:
A deep-dive discussion into Bill Belichick’s Hall of Fame snub, the soap-opera nature of the NFL, the value of great quarterbacks to coaching legacies, the Pro Bowl’s decline, the state of the Arizona Cardinals franchise, and recent coaching hires across the league—with classic banter, stats, and strong opinions from Arizona sports figures.

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Episode Overview

The episode centers on the controversial “snub” of Bill Belichick from the Pro Football Hall of Fame’s first-ballot club, dissecting whether Spygate and Deflategate should tarnish his legacy, and the intricate link between head coaches and elite quarterbacks. The hosts also pivot to the dysfunction surrounding the Arizona Cardinals, weak coaching searches, and the problem with the NFL’s current Pro Bowl format.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bill Belichick Hall of Fame First-Ballot Snub

• Main Question: Why did the NFL keep Bill Belichick out of the Hall of Fame on his first ballot?

  • Soap Opera/Narrative: The NFL is keeping Belichick out as a “smudge” for Spygate (04:00).
  • Polian’s Influence: Bill Polian is supposedly leading a group to “punish” Belichick with a wait period for Spygate.
  • Host Take: “I think the first ballot thing was taken away from him.” (14:06 – Holmberg)
  • Cheating Culture: Other coaches admit to trying to game the system (Jimmy Johnson, Bill Cowher).

• Key Quotes:

  • Holmberg: “This is what cheating is—don’t get caught. You get caught, you were cheating. You don’t get caught, you were gaming the system.” (05:34)
  • Hellestrae: “If the three of us are sitting down and going, looking at Bill Belichick and his accomplishments... Hall of Fame, but this is—” (13:54)

• Debate: Does Spygate/Deflategate diminish Belichick?

  • Consensus:
    • He’s still a Hall of Fame coach, but the “smudge” is real.
    • “First ballot” is only a big deal for the individual/ego.
    • “Awards are nonsense.” (14:30 – Nash)

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2. The Role of Great Quarterbacks for Great Coaches

• Dave Nash’s Argument: Belichick without Brady is .400, essentially average.

  • “Without Tom Brady, his record is 34 and 49 in New England.” (17:21)

• Pushback by Holmberg & Hellestrae:

  • No Hall of Fame coach succeeded without a great quarterback.
  • Name any Hall of Fame coach without a star QB? “You can’t do that.” (39:54)
  • Is Tom Brady irreplaceable? “You can’t get a better one.” (18:13 – Holmberg)

• Funny Exchange:

  • Nash: “I’m not saying he’s not a Hall of Fame coach.”
  • Holmberg: “Yes, you just.” (18:31)
  • Nash: “No, I’m not.”

• Historical Context:

  • “Every coach hangs around the last few years of their career too long. You're going to see some numbers decline.” (27:45 – Holmberg)
  • “Name me a Hall of Fame coach that didn’t have a quarterback.” (39:54 – Hellestrae)

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3. NFL’s Everlasting Soap Opera

• NFL Fandom as Drama:

  • Holmberg: “We do so much more than watch it for entertainment. We watch it for the soap opera.” (14:38)
  • Hellestrae: “This is what they've created—the world of entertainment in sports.” (16:18)

• Media Mastery:

  • “What are we talking about during the bye week before the Super Bowl? Belichick. They love it.” (16:12 – Holmberg/Hellestrae)

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4. The Rise and Fall of the Pro Bowl

• Joke Status:
  • “The Pro Bowl is a joke. Just call it AFC/NFC Fun Ball.” (45:05 – Holmberg)
  • Shador Sanders as a Pro Bowler despite weak stats: “20 years from now it will still say Shadour Sanders, Pro Bowl QB.” (47:53 – Hellestrae)
• Suggested Fix:
  • “Rather watch a skills contest. Just honor them, hand out a dinner.” (45:06 – Holmberg)
  • Risks: “Eventually you’re going to lose somebody who blows a knee out in flag football. Not worth it.” (46:03 – Holmberg)

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5. Arizona Cardinals – NFL’s Bleakest Franchise?

• State of the Cardinals:

  • Ranked worst in the league for 2026.
  • “Cardinals, Jets, Raiders, Colts, Browns—ranking the most miserable teams in the NFL.” (55:13 – Holmberg)

• Coaching Search Dysfunction:

  • Lack of clear direction, uninspired candidate pool.
  • “Coaches aren’t knocking down the door. They’re waiting to see what’s available.” (56:43 – Hellestrae)

• Ownership Critique:

  • “I would love to see Michael Bidwell get on TV and apologize, hat in hand, and just take ownership.” (60:21 – Holmberg)
  • Second/third-generation ownership syndrome: “It’s the movie Multiplicity... it started getting a little stupid.” (65:11 – Holmberg)

• Media Relations:

  • “They show up with rules. ‘Don’t talk about this… can’t do this…’ The Bidwells have no humility.” (63:31-64:59 – Holmberg)

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6. Coaching Changes Across the NFL

• Pittsburgh Steelers Hire Mike McCarthy:

  • Reaction mixed: “Safe but unsexy, short-term hire, maybe the right fit while the franchise regroups.” (49:58-52:16)
  • Desire for a ‘find’ like Mike Tomlin or Sean McVay is high, but experience and stability may trump upside.

• Buffalo Bills Promote Joe Brady:

  • Viewed suspiciously: “Is this simply Josh Allen’s pick?” (66:07 – Holmberg)
  • “The offense wasn’t the problem.” (66:33 – Nash)

• Lesson:

  • “If you’re going to fire a head coach, you need to mix something up.” (68:44 – Holmberg)
  • On promoting from within: Difficult to shift the dynamic when someone goes from buddy to boss. (69:46-70:01)

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7. Quarterbacks: Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, & Others

• Darnold’s Rise:

  • Discussion if Sam Darnold is now a top 10 QB due to playoff run:
    • “Your argument before for Sam Darnold was ‘he can't win a big game.’” (41:39 – Holmberg)
    • “I think they just made the argument we moved him up… he’s fifth. Thanks, Dave.” (74:24 – Holmberg)

• Serviceable QBs:

  • “I don’t think Sam Darnold is going to win you a game.” (75:07 – Nash)
  • “He just did… He was ridiculous.” (75:09, 75:51 – Holmberg)

• Banter on Rankings:

  • Playful debate over who are truly “elite”, “serviceable”, or replaceable quarterbacks.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Belichick’s “Cheating” Era:
  • Holmberg: “He didn’t need [Spygate]. He was a great coach in Cleveland.” (07:32)
• On NFL as Soap Opera:
  • Holmberg: “Sports doesn’t survive without the soap opera.” (14:50)
• On the Cardinals:
  • Holmberg: “You can go back and find a coach eventually that will make your argument… That’s a lunatic.” (43:34)
• On Mike McCarthy’s Hire in Pittsburgh:
  • Holmberg: “A safe vote in rocky waters. Because the Steelers are treading on some thin ice.” (50:02)

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Highlighted Timestamps

• Belichick/Hall of Fame Discussion: 03:55 – 29:00
• NFL as soap opera / media manipulation: 16:00 – 18:00
• Serviceable QBs and Darnold: 39:00 – 79:00, especially 72:00 – 77:00
• Pro Bowl’s Decline: 44:45 – 47:55
• State of Arizona Cardinals: 54:50 – 65:00
• Steelers/McCarthy hire: 49:25 – 52:45
• Coaching changes elsewhere (Bills, Browns, etc): 65:42 – 71:15

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Conclusion & Tone

This episode is lively, statistics-driven, and rooted in the hosts’ camaraderie, taking the audience through rants, stats, and laughs without losing sight of the bigger picture—the NFL thrives on drama and narrative, and even legendary coaching legacies will get dragged through the mud for ratings and relevance. Holmberg, Hellestrae, and Nash debate fiercely but amiably, channeling the voice of the grizzled sports faithful while poking each other, the league, and their own local teams in equal measure.

Transcript

[John Holmberg]

This week on We Fixed it. You're welcome. We're getting personal about a very beloved company. I'm the grandson of H.B.

[Dave Nash]

reese and I have no interest in

[John Holmberg]

buying another Reese's product. Our guest, Brad Reese has the world's attention and he's got ours, too. It's laughable. I mean, you're paying more for a product that's inferior. Of course we're going to try to fix this situation. Hopefully Hershey will pay attention. Hopefully Hershey will address it. Go listen to this very special episode wherever you get your podcasts. We Fixed it. You're welcome. Welcome once again to that sports thing, a John Holmberg podcast. Once again we are joined by our permanent guest, three time world champion, co host of the main event with Steve McCollum. It's Dale Hell Astray, formerly of the Dallas Cowboys and other teams that didn't win championships. But they don't really count on your resume.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Did not.

[John Holmberg]

Do they? Well, you don't bring it up.

[Dale Hell Astray]

I mean, I went to an AC Chapter game with Buffalo.

[John Holmberg]

Doesn't matter. Nothing good.

[Dave Nash]

Actually, that does. I think I'm impressed with that. Never really think about that.

[John Holmberg]

Not until you get to Lombardi's.

[Dave Nash]

No.

[John Holmberg]

Then it just stops mattering.

[Dale Hell Astray]

All right.

[John Holmberg]

It's like.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But when you go from two and 14 to the AFC championship game in four years, Johnny, that's something.

[John Holmberg]

But if you date a girl for a while and never close the deal, and then the next year that you close it with, you don't even talk about the.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah, but if you're dating somebody who's just butt ugly and all of a sudden you're at least dating somebody pretty, that's your fault.

[John Holmberg]

That's your fault. And the Bills weren't. But ugly they were.

[Dave Nash]

Give him credit, right?

[John Holmberg]

You were there. I'll give it to you. The other person here is named Dave Nash and he is known as the Angry Fan, the Angry Patriots. Just an angry guy all the way around about everything and wearing an angry shirt of a team that is no longer a thing. He's got a Coyotes shirt on today.

[Dave Nash]

I was. I, I'm a fan of local teams. I live in Phoenix.

[John Holmberg]

Well, there. That's the Utah Mammoth, my friend.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, well, I, you know, I'm not gonna throw that shirt away because they move.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You think you look good in there?

[John Holmberg]

I am more. Is that your color for that? Is that your color?

[Dave Nash]

I. Dale, I don't have a color. I am not proud of my look.

[John Holmberg]

I think it's a good color for you. I Think it works? It's nice. It's too bad. The Coyotes.

[Dale Hell Astray]

I appreciate both of you.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, here we go.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Is both of you know how ugly you are?

[Dave Nash]

I do.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And you don't. You don't. You don't fight it. No, no, you don't fight.

[John Holmberg]

But this is why we hang out with you, Dale, so we can feel better about ourselves.

[Dale Hell Astray]

I am the skinny girl.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, God. These. We are making fat girls look good for. Best they've ever looked. If he's the skinny one, that is correct. Crying out. All right, let's get right to it. This week had a lot going on. And again, soap opera of the NFL is no longer about football. It's nothing that happens on the grass. It's nothing at all as interesting as what happens outside of it. Thank you, Jerry Jones and the rest of the NFL for making this annual sport now 12 months long. Even with the super bowl looming and an interesting super bowl at that, we are now talking about the NFL in two different ways. Let's start with what everybody's going off about. The Bill Belichick snub. The Bill Belichick snub to me. And I just, you know. And you talk to your co host, Steve McCollum from the main event just seconds ago. And he was kind of hipping me up to what Bill Polian's been up to. And I didn't realize he was leading a group or supposedly leading a group against Belichick and saying out loud, hey, we need to wait a year to kind of punish him for Spygate. That was my first reaction when I saw he didn't get in. I thought, the NFL is basically finally admitting he can't have everything right away. We have to at least put a little embarrassment or a smudge on his reputation because of the tapes. The tapes were real. And you as a conspiracy theorist should be all behind this. The tapes were very real. The tapes were a huge problem. And the reason I know that and Dave, you should be on this is because when they settled it, Goodell said out loud, we're destroying the tape. So this dies today. They. They got rid of everything anyone else could look at.

[Dave Nash]

So why would they bring it back up now?

[John Holmberg]

They're not.

[Dave Nash]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

They're not.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Julian is. Who was affected by that sort of.

[John Holmberg]

He did evidently say it's by Spyg. They're not bringing it back up. They're basically doing the thing that's like, you have to have a smudge on your.

[Dale Hell Astray]

On your.

[John Holmberg]

On your career. You have to have an embarrassment.

[Dave Nash]

Sounds like they're bringing it back up because it's becoming a major topic that.

[John Holmberg]

But are they bringing it up or are we bringing it up? Because it was so obvious, the fact

[Dave Nash]

that he's not voted in, that they're bringing it up so that everyone else

[John Holmberg]

is going to be talking about it passive aggressively. They are saying, go with. Go with what you think because you're probably right. So it's. It is the Spygate.

[Dave Nash]

But see, I disagree, though.

[Dale Hell Astray]

If it was. If it was Jimmy Johnson.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Who got snubbed the first year. Nobody's going, oh, my goodness. But, you know, he's your fire. He's. He's a slam dunk. Hall of Famer. Jimmy won two Super Bowls.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Bills won seven, eight with the Giants. You know, so, I mean, seven is a head coach, eight is six, I

[John Holmberg]

think is a head coach.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And two with the Giants.

[Dave Nash]

I would think six.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He. He's a. He's a slam. As much of a slam dunk as there is a slam dunk. Now, here's what's interesting to me is the fact that you've got guys coming out in defense of him, Jimmy Johnson, y. Bill Cower, saying, hey, the whole spy thing, everybody's tried it. We tried it. We just weren't good at it.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. I said that basically everybody's trying to cheat or game the system. But here's where the Patriots. This is what cheating is. Don't get caught.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

You get caught. You were cheating. You don't get caught. You were gaming the system. But they're both doing the same thing.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

It's just a matter of whether or not you got clumsy. And they got clumsy, very clumsy for a long time. Many players, and I've talked to a couple guys who used to play have said, that is an absolute mess. What was going on. Hines Ward's story about the 2001 championship game, when the Patriots were calling out their plays at the line and they installed the language that week and Hines was like, how do they know? The halftime interview, as Bill went into the locker room with a team that was rushing for 186 yards a game and they couldn't run the ball at all. And they. And Bill said, it's like, they've got our playbook, so we got to do some adjustments. Jerome Bettis has gone on record saying, I watched Vince Wilfort call a timeout and run to the sideline goes nose. Guards don't do that.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

We ran the next play. We just flipped the play and they were right on top of It. This was a brand new scheme that they had inserted just for that first 15 or first 20 plays. And the Patriots knew it.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

So there was an advantage to be had. Is everyone else doing it?

[Dale Hell Astray]

Don't know. Right.

[John Holmberg]

But here's what I do know. They got caught doing it. So we are sure they do.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Because when you say calling out plays, if I could give you the number of times. Oh, yeah, I've been lined up over the ball and somebody goes, sweep, sweep, sweep, sure.

[John Holmberg]

But if they're calling out your. Your cadence and your new language and your new.

[Dale Hell Astray]

That. That. That is interesting. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And Heinz Ward made a point of that after the games, they were calling out our language. They were calling. And they did it that week for the championship game. They added new wrinkles for that game. And they're like, how are they yelling out what we know?

[Dale Hell Astray]

So in your mind. In your mind.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Does that tarnish him from a Hall of Fame career?

[John Holmberg]

It doesn't. Because. No, because here's the thing that I've always thought of the Patriots through that time. And we'll get into the Deflategate thing, too, because that's got some real merit.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No, it does.

[John Holmberg]

Yes, it does. Statistics. We'll argue there are statistics that have merit with that. I'll tell you exactly what it is, too, that he is a. He didn't need this. He was a. He was a great coach in Cleveland, right? The Browns. He was a great coach in Cleveland. The Browns were a Super bowl favorite going into the last season before Paris Glendenning, the mayor and the owner of the Browns got together and announced in the middle of the year they're moving, and the team fell apart. I think they were 7 and 1. They were a Super bowl favorite by a long. Like, everybody in the AFC was like that Brown team.

[Dale Hell Astray]

I don't remember that.

[Dave Nash]

I don't remember those numbers.

[John Holmberg]

The year they were moving, the year they were moving out, in the middle of that season, they announced it and the whole thing collapsed. Like, I mean, everything was up in the. Belichick was a good coach in Cleveland. What he pulled with the jets was weird.

[Dave Nash]

It's. It's nonsensical. And I've got the numbers to prove, so whenever you're ready.

[John Holmberg]

Go.

[Dale Hell Astray]

All right.

[Dave Nash]

In five years in Cleveland.

[John Holmberg]

Yes.

[Dave Nash]

His record was.

[John Holmberg]

They were horrible when he got 30.

[Dave Nash]

Not. Not really. Not really.

[John Holmberg]

They were horrible.

[Dave Nash]

Continued on whatever their record was, there were no changes. And you can look it up, and I'll look it up in between after I give you this information. They were 36 and 44 with Belichick in five years. And one of those years they had

[John Holmberg]

a really good year.

[Dave Nash]

They were 11 and 5. You take that away. They're a terrible team. They're a 400 team at best.

[John Holmberg]

The 11 and 5 year was the second to last year before they moved.

[Dave Nash]

Correct.

[John Holmberg]

The next year started 7:1.

[Dave Nash]

No, they only won five games all year. So they didn't.

[John Holmberg]

Okay, Maybe they started 5 and 1 or something like that, but they ended up falling apart. But they were super bowl favorites coming off.

[Dave Nash]

That gives proof that a coach can't keep them together. Because we're moving from Cleveland to Baltimore.

[John Holmberg]

Do you remember the mess that was that whole year for the Browns because of that? That was a disaster.

[Dave Nash]

I'll just say this as a player, you know, again, minor league baseball player, you go from town to town to town, you get moved around, you get bumped up, you get bumped down. No one I know.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

That played that were going from town to town ever affected their play.

[John Holmberg]

But they didn't move that week.

[Dave Nash]

No.

[John Holmberg]

The announcement happened and the whole city turned on him and everything went sideways. That was a disappointment.

[Dave Nash]

As a player. You're going to go, oh, my God, we're moving to Baltimore. I can't play anymore.

[John Holmberg]

Green Bay moved and announced it in the middle of the year. If Pittsburgh moved and if Dallas moved and announced it in the middle of the year, we're moving to, I don't know, San Antonio. Even people would lose their minds.

[Dave Nash]

I'll give you this thought. Anyone in Cleveland saying, we're moving? They should have been happy.

[John Holmberg]

They should have been. How is anyone in Cleveland, any player

[Dave Nash]

in Cleveland going, oh, my God, we're leaving Cleveland. How are we going to watch the.

[Dale Hell Astray]

The.

[Dave Nash]

The lake on fire from. From Baltimore?

[John Holmberg]

Team of a heritage franchise survives a year like that. Belichick did a good job with the Browns and I hate the Browns. But watch that last. Go back and look at that last season again, because they were coming into that and they had an injury. I don't remember who it was. It was a major injury that year, too. But. And you can say, oh, any coach would hold them together through that. The franchise is on fire.

[Dave Nash]

I don't know how San Francisco did it this year.

[John Holmberg]

San Francisco did it with injuries. But if they said, also in the middle of the year, guys, you're all moving because we say so and everybody's out and your families are disrupted and this. And then now the city hates us and we're taking a franchise that is established and we're going to stay in this city and all you're going to Everybody talks about distractions.

[Dave Nash]

We're going to finish strong. That should have been the message.

[John Holmberg]

Can't even terrible coach. You can't even have somebody in a locker room say something wrong without it being a huge distraction no one can overcome.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But okay, so let saner minds prevail. His candidacy for hall of Fameness. Yeah. Is not rooted in Cleveland.

[John Holmberg]

No. But he wasn't bad.

[Dale Hell Astray]

It's. He was average. You could say just average. Maybe he learned how to be a head coach in Cleveland, but when he went to New England, that is a Hall of Fame career, bar none. No have no questions asked. Most Super Bowls won by a single head coach over a 20 year period. He kept it together.

[John Holmberg]

Little star next to his name.

[Dale Hell Astray]

I will say the Spygate. Possibly.

[John Holmberg]

It's a big deal.

[Dale Hell Astray]

It's possible. But when you have other coaches. I didn't know that was going on when we were in Dallas. It probably wasn't that they were trying

[John Holmberg]

to if they were filming their practices. Marshall Falk watched the the Saints had that onside kick against the Colts in the Super Bowl. Remember that?

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

So when they did America's Game on the NFL Network to kick off the season the year after, they always play last year's America's thing and they showed the season of the Saints and they were showing a video of of the Saints practicing and they ran a personnel out there for a kickoff they'd never run before. And there were three guys on there that weren't running. And we're going to try to sneak them out there and we're going to run a surprise onside kick at one point during the game if the moment calls for this is who we're running. They ran it 10 times with that personnel. Ran it a certain direction with that personnel when the thing was over. Marshall Falk said, you're telling me if the other team had that tape, they wouldn't have known. That's a big deal. Because that changed that super bowl and they were working on it. And if you had practice tapes of a team trying to install the surprise and it's not a surprise. Patriots line up, you know, a couple of receivers on that side and see if they try it on this. We've seen this before. It's not game tape. That's not fair. It's practice tape. There's a reason the Cardinals of all teams have planted Bogan Villa around the fence and then a bunch of green stuff that they double down on. You not being able to get in there and see anything.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

It's a big deal to tape somebody's practice. That's. It's like having a spy in when you're trying to install the game plan.

[Dale Hell Astray]

I, I understand about Spygate. Yeah. Right. But at the end of the day, if the three of us are sitting down and going, looking at Bill Belichick and his accomplishments.

[John Holmberg]

Incredible. And I hate him. He's. I agree.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And the hall of Fame, I could take it or leave it, but in my mind, he's a. Check. Yes. Hall of Fame, but this is.

[John Holmberg]

I think he's going to be a Hall of Famer. I think the first ballot thing was taken away from him. I think.

[Dave Nash]

Whatever.

[John Holmberg]

That's a hu. Jack.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No.

[Dave Nash]

I'll tell you what.

[John Holmberg]

I watch baseball. I talked to Randy Johnson about it because it was a big deal.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah. And.

[Dave Nash]

And, but, but for him, it's a big deal. For everyone else in the world that thinks it's a big deal that Bill Belichick doesn't get in on the first ballot. You need to get a life. I mean, you need to.

[John Holmberg]

Nonsensical.

[Dave Nash]

No, it's too.

[John Holmberg]

Only for him.

[Dave Nash]

Sports for entertainment. And then when we start thinking about, well, who's going to get an award? Awards are nonsense.

[John Holmberg]

We do so much more than watch it for entertainment. We watch it for the soap opera. And we've been.

[Dave Nash]

Well, it's got a soap opera and

[John Holmberg]

it is a soap opera. I'm not a fan.

[Dave Nash]

I'm not a fan of soap operas. I watch sports.

[John Holmberg]

You absolutely are, too. You don't watch the typical soap opera, but you watch sports. And sports doesn't survive without the soap opera. The reason this exists is because it's a soap opera. You wouldn't just sit there and we never talk rebound.

[Dave Nash]

For listeners out there, I'm the guy that wants to watch the competition. I enjoy man against man. And then after that, we're done.

[John Holmberg]

Now don't say that. Isolate that man against man thing.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Okay. So real quick. So what's fascinating to me is the fact that. And I'm one of the Cowboys special. Jerry was talking because he's integral in the negotiations to go from cbs. Yep. To Fox.

[John Holmberg]

Yep.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And. And then it was the. You know what? You're not going to make money on us. You're going to make money on everything else that you broadcast. Yep. Because. Because you talked about like an I Love Lucy thing where you had to pay so much for the rights. Right. In Arkansas. And they made no money on the I Love Lucy reruns. Right. But everything that followed I Love Lucy garner great ratings, and so he brings that. And now the NFL. I guarantee you that. I was going to say Pete Roselle, Roger Goodell. Yeah, it's. They're all sitting up there right now. This is an off week for the Super Bowl. And what are we talking about? Love it.

[John Holmberg]

They love it.

[Dale Hell Astray]

The NBA is going. The. The. The NHL's going. There's.

[John Holmberg]

Nobody cares.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No, this is.

[John Holmberg]

This is. What they've created is the world of entertainment in sports. It is not about what's on the field all the time. And we love this. You and I are arguing about it. So there's something there. There is a.

[Dave Nash]

Can I get back to some stats?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, but I don't know if they're any good.

[Dave Nash]

They're very.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Are you. Hold on. Are you trying to talk us out of Bill Belichick being the hall of Fame?

[John Holmberg]

That's what I'.

[Dave Nash]

But I'm. I'm trying to talk people into reality that without Tom Brady.

[John Holmberg]

He had him.

[Dave Nash]

It doesn't matter without Tom Brady. His record 11.

[John Holmberg]

5 with with Castle.

[Dave Nash]

But that's the rest of the team you had

[John Holmberg]

with or without Tom Brady.

[Dave Nash]

Listen, you had winning and losing is a habit. And you can lose really important players on your team, but if you have a team that is used to winning, that's a hab.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Okay, so who instills that?

[Dave Nash]

All right, that's great.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But.

[Dave Nash]

All right, again, statistically, before Tom Brady was a quarterback. Starting quarterback in New England.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And then the four years, last years of Belichick's career, five years without Brady. His record in New England was 34 and 49.

[John Holmberg]

Took over a bad team.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Third,

[Dave Nash]

he had a good team. He lost Tom Brady and he became one of the. He almost got the number one pick in the draft.

[John Holmberg]

You lost Tom Brady and no coach is going to be better.

[Dave Nash]

No, that's a lie. And look at how many coaches have had teams that gone to Super Bowl. They change quarterbacks. They go right. Sean McVeigh had. Jared Goff said, hey, we got there with him. We really need more. Let's get Matthew Stafford a better quarterback.

[Dale Hell Astray]

The Patriots get a better quarterback than Tom Brady.

[Dave Nash]

That's on Belichick. Listen, you look at his record.

[John Holmberg]

Been a better one. You can't get a better one. That guy's the best that's ever done it.

[Dave Nash]

He had a. Basically a.400 winning percentage without Tom Brady at quarterback. Would. Would you say that coach is a Hall of Fame coach?

[John Holmberg]

Your winning Percentage.

[Dave Nash]

I'm not saying he's not a Hall of Fame coach.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes, you just.

[Dave Nash]

No, I'm not.

[John Holmberg]

I'm saying without Tom Brady, everybody pump

[Dave Nash]

the brakes on him being the greatest coach of all time. Tom Brady out of the mix.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And.

[Dave Nash]

And. And I don't know what kind of coach he is.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Do you want to go down that road?

[Dave Nash]

Yes.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Name me a great coach that didn't have a great quarterback.

[Dave Nash]

Exactly.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Give me one. Give me one.

[Dave Nash]

John Gruden.

[Dale Hell Astray]

John Gruden. John Gruden.

[Dave Nash]

Yes. Yes, he is.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He won one Super Bowl. He's a.

[John Holmberg]

He's an underachiever.

[Dale Hell Astray]

What do you call it? What?

[Dave Nash]

You have to. You have to win six Super Bowls to be a great coach.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He won six.

[Dave Nash]

Hey, and I tell you what. In regards to Jimmy Johnson, he won two Super Bowls, but he's an idiot for extracting himself out of the Dallas situation. That's an idiot.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He's in the hall of Fame.

[Dave Nash]

So that goes to show you how much getting in the hall of Fame is. Nonsense.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Bill Walsh is in the hall of Fame.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Great coach. Yes.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Oh, he did.

[Dave Nash]

And then he went from Joe Montana to Steve Young. Same thing.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Pretty good.

[Dave Nash]

You know what? He set that up. Who do you have coming in after Tom Brady? Because throughout Tom Brady's career.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, my God.

[Dave Nash]

Bill Belichick said, we can win with any. We do not need Tom Brady.

[John Holmberg]

11 of 5 with Matt Castle.

[Dave Nash]

Okay. All right, Then, then, then, then. See how that works more without Tom Brady.

[John Holmberg]

Like, it wasn't. It wasn't just him, though. Tom Brady and that team. Yes. You had the. You also had the greatest quarterback that ever played. You're not replacing that. So when Tom retired.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah. The best thing Bill Belichick ever did was move on from Drew Bledsoe, who's a Pro bowl quarterback. He moved on from.

[John Holmberg]

Mo Lewis. Moved him on.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, but.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But when.

[Dave Nash]

When Bledsoe was healthy, he said, I'm sticking with Brady.

[John Holmberg]

That's.

[Dave Nash]

That should get him into the hall of Fame. Just that move alone. I'll give him super credit for that.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

He realized this kid is better than a Pro bowl quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

You didn't see every loophole that guy found. You didn't see moving Troy Brown to defensive back in the playoffs. These are coaching moves that were unheard of.

[Dave Nash]

Listen to me closely one more time. I'm not saying he's not a Hall of Fame quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

Coach.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Coach.

[Dave Nash]

Or you're just saying he's not the greatest coach.

[John Holmberg]

I'm saying it's deserved.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Everyone is up in arms about the fact. Do you know how the, the voting goes for the hall of Fame? I heard you talking about it. You understand there's five names on it. You as a. There's 50 voters. So you get three votes. That's 150 votes. Point is you've got to get 40. If, if all of those three, five candidates.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Got somehow 30 votes each. That's total 150 votes.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

No one gets in. You only can vote for so many guys. It's not you're on or you're out.

[John Holmberg]

That's the first ballot argument is who are they putting in more deserving than Bill Belichick?

[Dave Nash]

Do you know the five names he's up again or the four names he's up against?

[John Holmberg]

The ones they're arguing against aren't better than Belichick.

[Dave Nash]

The only five in the votes to get him in. Yeah, it's him.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Robert Kraft, Roger Craig, Ken Anderson, and Elsie Greenwood. Your guy.

[John Holmberg]

I love Elsie Greenwood. Exactly. Is he a better contributor to the NFL over time than Belichick? No, because he has, he's been retired for 40 years, but again, and he's not in the hall of Fame.

[Dave Nash]

This is in. These are, these are like senior guys that will fall off the ballot. And I can listen for, for, for all cases, Robert Kraft's the guy that brought in Bill Belichick. So he gets in before Belichick in

[John Holmberg]

my house,

[Dale Hell Astray]

your whole argument go.

[John Holmberg]

Goes away. It goes because he didn't set up after Belichick either.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah. And then after Belichick ran the club into the ground in four years, it took him, he turned around and he, and he made a mistake with Gerard Mayo and he realized that's a mistake. I'm going to go get Vrabel. And all of a sudden they're in super bowl again. Robert Kraft, hall of Fame.

[John Holmberg]

But to use your argument against you, because Belichick didn't have a Steve Young behind Tom Brady, he wasn't good enough as a coach to foresee the future. Then Robert Kraft's argument goes away because he didn't have a plan for Brady either.

[Mackenzie]

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[John Holmberg]

GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform, trusted by over 200 million people. Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com that's gofundme.com gofundme.com this podcast is supported by GoFundMe.

[Dave Nash]

And they did.

[John Holmberg]

It was Mac Jones and it didn't work.

[Dave Nash]

This argument can go round and round.

[John Holmberg]

No, it can't.

[Dale Hell Astray]

It's.

[Dave Nash]

It's solved. There are reasons why Belichick didn't get in, and that is certain guys want to see some of those other guys get in. You can only vote for three guys

[John Holmberg]

that there's something more.

[Dave Nash]

That's it.

[John Holmberg]

There is something more to it. Maybe it is. Maybe other than.

[Dave Nash]

I'm not arguing that, but you're the

[John Holmberg]

only one making the argument saying he doesn't.

[Dave Nash]

No one is bringing up the point of his record, minus Tom Brady and the nonsense he pulled in the super bowl against the Philadelphia Eagles.

[John Holmberg]

That's the. Well, he had one super bowl where he took a couple chances that weren't good. He got out.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Then he.

[John Holmberg]

Then he beat a team after they were up 28 to three.

[Dave Nash]

The guy. Yeah. Right. He's down 28. Thank God he had Tom Brady at coach. Quarterback. I'll say this in regards to the Philadelphia Eagles Super Bowl. You got to remember Malcolm Butler played more snaps on that team that year than anyone else.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And he gets to the super bowl and he plays two snaps, both on.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Special teams.

[John Holmberg]

We don't know why.

[Dave Nash]

Right. The point is, I'm gonna make. I'm gonna make an.

[John Holmberg]

You're gonna assume something.

[Dave Nash]

I'm gonna assume.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

That he was holding something against Malcolm Butler and he put that in front of the team and the good of the team. And to me, I think it's inexcusable what he did with male.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Two things. Two things to come back at. You rebuke. You rebuke.

[John Holmberg]

Rebuke. Biblical.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Okay. Number one, I'm gonna assume that Malcolm Butler did something against team rules that week.

[John Holmberg]

Nobody on that team ever said that was about.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And he said. And. And. And the program that he built said nobody is above the team, so you're not going to play in this game. Number two. And this is it to me, is non negotiable. If L.C. greenwood and Roger Craig are not in the hall of fame 30 years after they got done playing. What have they done in the last year deserve to be in the hall of Fame?

[John Holmberg]

Elsie Greenwood's been dead for 14.

[Dave Nash]

Only so many votes that you get to get people into the hall of Fame. So if you want to look at, you know, the, the system of actually voting people in the hall of Fame, you can do that. I would agree, but it's not an

[John Holmberg]

argument of how the hall of Fame works. It's about Bill Belichick not being a first ballot hall of Fame, which means who is. The bigger argument there is if he's not getting in on the.

[Dave Nash]

Tom Brady is. And Tom Brady can drag him in with us.

[John Holmberg]

What if they snub him into what

[Dave Nash]

he did for his whole career?

[John Holmberg]

If he. Without Bill Belichick, Tom Brady's not that great. I mean, what if that's the argument? It's not. He won a Super bowl of Tampa. But I mean, if you just say it's like, without Belichick, he's nothing. These are fantasy arguments.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And then you add to the fact that you are sitting there telling both John and I, two intelligent, incredible young men, healthy young men, compared to you,

[John Holmberg]

you're as red as your shirt sitting

[Dale Hell Astray]

there, and you're gonna tell me, Robert Kraft deserves to be in before Bill Belichick. How many play calls did he do?

[John Holmberg]

He just put, he put the pieces in place.

[Dave Nash]

Get their voting owners in or, or

[John Holmberg]

people who built this, you know, what is it? Crash, first year of eligibility?

[Dale Hell Astray]

Is it his?

[John Holmberg]

I don't know how that works.

[Dave Nash]

I have no idea.

[John Holmberg]

So if, if, if anything, between the two of them, who's going to hold that slot? If there's one left, you give it to Belichick.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

And I'm not a fan of Bill Belichick.

[Dave Nash]

Ten seasons without Tom Brady. He won two. He was a winning coach in two out of ten. Two out of ten seasons when Tom Brady was not the quarterback for Bill Belichick at the end of 10.

[John Holmberg]

Every coach hangs around the last few years of their career too long. You're going to see some numbers decline.

[Dave Nash]

Now. Either that or you're going to see Tom Brady left and he's not a very good coach.

[John Holmberg]

Everything has a shelf life.

[Dale Hell Astray]

So you.

[John Holmberg]

I don't, I don't look at Bill Belichick's last few years as like, well, that was the best product on the field. Was he great at drafting? He might have had a little too much power in the GM room.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He Got too much power.

[John Holmberg]

I think he got a little too much of that. And towards the end of it it's like nobody was questioning him anymore and might have had his eye off the ball towards the end. As we've seen in North Carolina, a young lady will distract the man. So maybe he's flawed. I don't. Nobody's saying he's perfect. But this first ballot thing has to be the argument more so of nobody. Nobody's using the argument. Oh, he had Tom Brady. Because that's like saying well they should be. Well then why wouldn't you just say Steve Sarkeesian should be? Because if he had Tom, Brad have been great. It doesn't matter. He had him. So you have to go with what he was given.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And I go back to name me a hall of an upper echelon head football coach NFL that didn't have a quarterback. Look at Jimmy Johnson. I don't think Jimmy Johnson should be in the hall of Fame. I played for him.

[John Holmberg]

He had Dan Marino for a year or two. Nothing happened.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He, he, he won two Super Bowls in Dallas. Then he went coach about four or five years in Miami and they did diddly squash.

[Dave Nash]

They had a better record in Miami than he did.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Dan Marino, he had the one in 15 year. You got him wiped.

[John Holmberg]

Mark that off again. Yeah, he took over a terrible team and yeah. And his percentage is going to be based on. What did you grab when you first got there?

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

What was the situation when you got there? And I think the Cleveland situation. Anybody goes there and gets an 11 and 5 team in Cleveland and then has the next thing with ownership that was, I mean they just

[Dave Nash]

wasn't a bad owner.

[John Holmberg]

He was at the. Oh my God. The last couple years of the Browns, he, he's devastated that franchise.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Have you ever played in Cleveland Stadium?

[Dave Nash]

No.

[John Holmberg]

He wouldn't spend a penny on anything.

[Dale Hell Astray]

I play in Cleveland.

[Dave Nash]

I know I wouldn't even want it. What's better, Cleveland or Philadelphia?

[Dale Hell Astray]

Well, the old vet.

[John Holmberg]

That's a rough.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Okay. At least in Cleveland they didn't throw batteries.

[John Holmberg]

Modell moved the team in the middle of the of a quality year when it seemed like the ball was rolling right for them. Trust me, as a Steeler fan, I remember the years the Browns popped up and I'm like they're going to be good. This sucks. And then the next year was. Or when the Ravens drafted the lineman. I can't remember his name right now.

[Dale Hell Astray]

The left tackle.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Ogden. Yeah. And then. Oh my God. And Ray Lewis shows up and you start Build. The building blocks were in. Were there, right? They were dismantled. Everyone left right after that Browns debacle because they're like, I don't even want to be part of this. So when the owner, Cardinal fans is looming over the team, you watch that team disintegrate every time.

[Dale Hell Astray]

What a great transition.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, yeah, we're going that way. See what I did there, podcast.

[Dave Nash]

We want to be finished with the numbers when LC Belongs. When LC Greenwood. Yeah, but he, of course, he was at hall of Fame coach. But, you know, everyone getting up and arms because he didn't get in the first year.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Whatever.

[Dave Nash]

But that's the point.

[John Holmberg]

That that's supposed to be the ultimate honor of the hall of Fame, L.C.

[Dave Nash]

greenwood. When he retired, or at least his last year of playing, he was in the top maybe 15 or so spectacular. Okay, so. So he will drop off this list. Do you think he'd become a Hall of Famer because Belichick's getting in?

[John Holmberg]

I will use your argument for that. Is that most people take LC Greenwood and say he's not what he was without Joe Green.

[Dave Nash]

He's part of that. What was the defense?

[John Holmberg]

Steel Curtain.

[Dave Nash]

Sorry, but I'm telling you right now

[John Holmberg]

that LC Greenwood benefited more than anyone for being on that line with a dude that had to get triple teamed, who changed the way defensive linemen line up and gaps. Joe Green was never just helmet to helmet. He turned sideways and everybody was like, what's he doing? They couldn't figure it out for years.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And some damn good linebacker.

[John Holmberg]

And behind him. And then you got two hall of Famers standing there on the corners and we got Woodruff and. Do you think L.C.

[Dave Nash]

greenwood is a Hall of Famer?

[John Holmberg]

I think L.C.

[Dale Hell Astray]

greenwood.

[John Holmberg]

I wouldn't. I wouldn't put him on above probably even Roger Craig. And I love.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Else.

[John Holmberg]

I got a jersey right when he.

[Dave Nash]

When he left the game. I think though, Dale, he was in the top 10 in yards from scrimmage or if not top 10, unstoppable.

[John Holmberg]

But again, back to your argument. Well, he wouldn't have done that without Rathman running in front of him. I mean, or Montana or Rice or Taylor or the entire line or, you know, the. You. You have to. You can't use the argument that they had too good a player.

[Dave Nash]

It's not like he lost Tom Rathman and he couldn't play anymore. By the way, Belichick couldn't coach anymore after Tom Brady wasn't there.

[John Holmberg]

Prior to Belichick, Tom Brady was a barely making it college guy.

[Dave Nash]

I like. I Said the best thing Bill Belichick ever did in his career ever was sit down a Pro bowl quarterback for a six round draft pick out of Michigan who was a skinny is a nothing. Nothing.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

You know what? He should make the hall of Fame for that and maybe even to be a first ballot for that. But other than that, let's everyone get off. You know.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Stop.

[Dave Nash]

No sucking this guy off.

[John Holmberg]

No. He is even with the scandals I'll say you can't get past. I don't think he needed them. And I'll go back to the deflate gate. There is a statistic that makes this real. It's a good one. Five straight years the New England Patriots fumbled less than every other team per like 100 carries. You teach bottom security because at home if they had a deflated it wasn't about Brady throwing it or anybody catching it. And that's why the Colts again Polian's involved told his linebackers if you get your hands on that things find out if they're doing this. It was a rumor in the league that the footballs were different when you played the Patriots. And I can't remember was it Barkevius Mingo. I forget who made the pick squeezes it and gives it to a ref and goes we told you. And that's where it started. Because they were warning these guys that's nothing. It's nothing. They're doing something to these five straight years the Patriots led the league in fumbles per 100 attempts. And it was like two. Everybody else from two to 30 shuffled. Never the same a team second. The next year could be like 28th. It never. The Patriots were first Deflategate happened. They looked at them, they said can't do this anymore. Suddenly the Patriots are in the mix. 4 per 100. No longer at 2.1 per 100. They're down to right with the rest of the mix. Their advantage was an advantage.

[Dave Nash]

I don't blame New England for that. I don't blame New England for that.

[John Holmberg]

They got caught. Yeah, but.

[Dave Nash]

But what was the penalty in the rule book for a deflated football? What was the penalty?

[John Holmberg]

I don't remember what they did.

[Dave Nash]

There was no penalty.

[John Holmberg]

That's probably why they got in trouble. It's like you're not supposed to mess with the equipment. You can't put slick on your jersey. You couldn't wear stick on a while. You could for a while until they stopped them.

[Dave Nash]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

Right.

[Dave Nash]

But.

[John Holmberg]

But you could scuff a ball but

[Dave Nash]

you had to be careful of the organization need if you put in a rule that says you can't do this right. There needs to be punishment, and it has to be clear cut. What you get. For instance, did you hear about what Dion Sanders is doing up in Colorado? I might want to throw. Throw that out.

[John Holmberg]

What do you do? You got notes.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, he. And, And I'm gonna. I, I, I wrote this down really quickly. I heard this. So don't take it for.

[John Holmberg]

So it may not be true.

[Dave Nash]

Well, no, And I, I heard that I. He's finding guys.

[John Holmberg]

You're.

[Dave Nash]

He's finding guys monetarily in college because they're getting nil. Okay, whatever. And I could see that, but he's finding. If you're late for practice.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

500.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Okay.

[Dave Nash]

If you don't show for practice, 2500.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Why are you not showing up?

[John Holmberg]

You should get cut.

[Dave Nash]

Hey, it's 2026, guys. Got something else going on. More important.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Girlfriend.

[John Holmberg]

And it's her anniversary.

[Dave Nash]

No show. A meeting. Two grand. You know, show workout. It's 1500.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You.

[Dave Nash]

You're late.

[John Holmberg]

So don't do any of those things. What's wrong with this?

[Dale Hell Astray]

All those football team.

[John Holmberg]

I agree.

[Dave Nash]

And I get social media misconduct, $5,000.

[John Holmberg]

Okay. And smart.

[Dave Nash]

No, listen, I'm not arguing anything.

[John Holmberg]

But you're saying there's.

[Dave Nash]

I heard it. And I go now. We're fine. I couldn't imagine being in college.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Well, you weren't in this college. Yeah, but where you get a million dollars?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, you weren't in this College. We're getting 60, so that's where we're at now. Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Not only are they getting. They're getting payments now. They're getting fined monetarily. I mean, if we did. If I missed the practice. I was late for practice. I did laps around the field.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah, yeah, but did you ever, ever miss a practice without a death in the family without calling your coach and saying, hey, I, I'm. I. This happened.

[Dave Nash]

Not that I remember. No, not that I remember.

[John Holmberg]

He might have been drunk. He doesn't remember.

[Dave Nash]

Not that I remember.

[John Holmberg]

But back to full circle. This. Back to that. You're. I agree with you there. There needed to be a clear cut rule that says, here's the fine for what you did, but it doesn't diminish that they did it. And that is what made Bill Belichick a great coach. He said there is no, there is no repercussions for this.

[Dave Nash]

I won't argue that either.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He also knew little nuances.

[John Holmberg]

That's one of them.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Continue to have penalties and that thing he's standing over there smirking.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Was it the Jets? And he just figured it out and he's just smirking like, oh, it's the Titans. It was a Titan.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Because he's smirking at Brable.

[John Holmberg]

You know who used it next? Mike Vrabel. Yes, it was with the Titans. He's like, hey, they haven't changed the rule yet. Belichick's on to some. Keep penalizing the play gate.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Is that in the 90s when I was there? I promise you, Toy Aikman didn't know a PSI from a PPU from a LO2 or whatever. All he knew was that the kicker and punter would get all the game balls, put them in a bag, throw them in a dryer, get them out, bang them against the wall, do whatever they did to him, rub them down, and then they show. Right. Here's a ball, Troy. Feel it. A little more banging.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Or a little more dry or whatever. And I promise you, Tom Brady didn't go, give me 12 psi instead of 14 psi.

[John Holmberg]

Well, you looked at the. You looked at the texts that he wouldn't give up. And I was on his side with that. And he was basically telling him, make him a little squishy.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He was.

[John Holmberg]

He was. But at the time, there was nothing. That's a rule because of the statistic I gave you. It is an advantage now if everybody

[Dave Nash]

should do it, play with flatball. There's no penalty for it. Do it.

[John Holmberg]

There's the first ballot. Hall of Fame.

[Dave Nash]

I'm not going to argue. That's a good move.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, that's a great move. But it was. It was stuff he did.

[Dave Nash]

Even he did that, he was still only a 400 coach without Tom Brady. How's that happen? How do you do all of that and you still can't win without one guy?

[John Holmberg]

Byron Leftwich was the hottest assistant gonna get three head coaching jobs because he was Tom Brady's OC until they interviewed him and they're like, oh, you don't get hired just because your quarterback's good.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah. And you don't get. And you shouldn't get put into the hall of Fame first ballot just because your quarterback.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Okay, so then all of them are out again. I've given you time. Now give me a head coach that doesn't have a Pro bowl quarterback. And I'm not talking about Sanders.

[John Holmberg]

Is Gruden in the hall of Fame?

[Dale Hell Astray]

What's that?

[John Holmberg]

You said Gruden to this. But he's not in the Hall.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No, he's not.

[John Holmberg]

Name A Hall of Fame coach.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He won one Super Bowl.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Name a Hall of Fame coach that didn't have a quarterback.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right. And you can't do that. You've got all these notes over here.

[Dave Nash]

I, I don't, I don't even know what, what, what coach are in the hall of Fame.

[John Holmberg]

I have to look. Yeah, all of them. I guarantee you. There's Tom Landry, he had a heck of a quarterback. Jimmy Johnson, Chuck Noel, I believe Bill Cower got in okay. And it was his record because of what he was doing without quarterbacks. And then with Ben Roethlisberger, he finally got over the hump.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Walsh in San Francisco, Jimmy Johnson.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. They all have that one thing in common. Don Shula.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Who still managed to not win one with at the time the Tom Brady of the league. And Dan Marino for 10 years.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right. But he won one with Earl Moore.

[John Holmberg]

But he. Yeah, he won earlier. And a lot of people say, oh, he was just riding off the Colts success. No, it's the same argument they make for Mike Tomlin in Pittsburgh when they're like, oh, he only wanted.

[Dave Nash]

Just had good quarterbacks. They didn't have Tom Brady.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But it's.

[John Holmberg]

Nobody's ever had Tom Brady.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No.

[Dave Nash]

So he's lucky. He's lucky. Hey, it's better to be lucky than good.

[John Holmberg]

Was Barry Switzer a good coach or was he just living off Jimmy Johnson?

[Dave Nash]

Dale, Dale asking you.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, Barry Switzer was a good coach. He did it with a roster that he didn't necessarily build, but he was a good coach. To keep it from imploding you, you

[Dale Hell Astray]

have to approach it a sep. A different way. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And Mike Tomlin always got though he never won without cowers, guys. Yes, he did. And also he won nobody. Six Super Bowls out of 60 is still the number one amount of Super Bowls.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Every team that's the two best 54 Super bowl non appearances or losses. I mean, you're not winning it a lot. So to base it off of that is crazy. The guy was in the championship game. Okay, I got the list.

[Dave Nash]

I think most of them don't have a good quarterback.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But you don't.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, but you have a. You think Darnold sucks, so.

[Dave Nash]

No, I don't. And, and we were. I'll get to that.

[John Holmberg]

Also, you have notes on your own notes.

[Dave Nash]

Yes, I got notes on Sam Darnold also.

[John Holmberg]

We got to replay that show. He hated Sam Darnold out loud for a long. I didn't hate him.

[Dale Hell Astray]

I guess he's.

[Dave Nash]

He's not a Top. He's not a 20%. He's not a top.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Oh, he.

[Dave Nash]

He's a top seven quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

Your argument before for Sam Darnold was he can't win a big game. He.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Well, we'll.

[Dave Nash]

We'll agree to this.

[John Holmberg]

This is crazy.

[Dave Nash]

George Allen. Remember George Allen?

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Nash]

You call Billy Kilmer a great quarterback. You call Billy Kilmer great quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

He had

[Dave Nash]

George.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No, no.

[John Holmberg]

I don't know. He had.

[Dave Nash]

Not Joe Gibbs. George Allen.

[Dale Hell Astray]

How about come a little bit closer to our life.

[John Holmberg]

How about when they put on helmets, Use the helmet era.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

All right.

[Dave Nash]

Well, I gotta.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Over the hill. I remember over the hill game.

[John Holmberg]

He's combing through. This is. This is. When you're dealing with an illog. This is an illogical brain. But, Grant, finding the outline. Fran Tarkinton went to the super bowl four times.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

All right, we'll end it there. That's a good one. Not the whole show.

[Dale Hell Astray]

We'll move on. Come on.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. No, you can't sit and say, here are the averages, and then everybody can go, here's the outlier. There's. You're going to find one if you dig. But you're. Look at you.

[Dave Nash]

Scrolling parcels.

[John Holmberg]

Bill Parcell's had good quarter. Phil Sims is a good quarterback.

[Dave Nash]

Hostetler, he won with Hostetler.

[John Holmberg]

Super bowl with Hostile. Hostetler was on a team with a great defense. And Bill Belichick was a coach on that team.

[Dave Nash]

Hey, he should have stayed a defensive coordinator.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah. He didn't have any success once he left.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah. And Bill Belichick was on that staff, too.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Anyway, let's get on to the next thing because Dave has lost his mind.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You don't got anybody else.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, Tom Flores, Jim Plunkett, He's a Hall of Famer.

[Dave Nash]

You think Jim Plunkett was a great quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

He's in the hall of Fame.

[Dave Nash]

He was on the scrap heap before he got to Oakland because he was.

[John Holmberg]

Because he was in the Patriots organization that was caving in.

[Dave Nash]

Guy Chamberlain. Who's that?

[John Holmberg]

Was that. Was it 1935? Again, the logical Chamberlain. Look, you can go back and find a coach eventually. That will make your argument.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But I think the argument. Yeah, yeah.

[John Holmberg]

He's gonna have 6,000 guys that he's. That he can't fight the argument and he'll find the one and make that his basis. That's a lunatic. Yeah, you're being a lunatic. The angry looney.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You get five minutes at the end for that.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. We'll give you that. Yeah, we'll let you go because this one is a loss. Let's talk about the Pro Bowl. You bring up all these accolades and we talked earlier this morning on my show, Dale, about a certain Pro Bowler now on the AFC that's going to play quarterback. And I believe the number and it might be wrong, but I think this is right. 696 quarterbacks. It might be. I don't remember if it was six or three. I don't remember. But anyway, certain 196 quarterbacks have played in the NFL since 2000. At least 20 snaps. Let's call it 696. I don't know if that's right, but Shador Sanders ranks 692 or if it's 396. It's 392. I can't remember the number.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Well, the other four behind him. Pro Bowler.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. He's only better than four guys who have taken 20 snaps in the Max halls. I have to wonder if Max hall had better numbers.

[Dave Nash]

So you're saying you're not going to put him in the first ballot hall of Fame?

[Dale Hell Astray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

Well, dependent. But he is now an all Pro. He's a Pro bowl player in the NFL. And this has gotten to the point and I don't know if he gets a bonus if you have to have first, like if you have to be voted in by your peers.

[Dave Nash]

Same thing happened to Tyler Hunley a couple years ago.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. We've had. Well, I mean, there. There are guys you're looking at. What are we doing with the Pro Bowl? Just call it the AFC NFC fun Ball and just have these guys that want to show up.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You should.

[John Holmberg]

Should.

[Dale Hell Astray]

What they should do is just have the Pro bowl nominees have a dinner.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And honor them and move on. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Were you ever part of. They had that. It was Battle of the Network Stars was the thing where they put people from TV shows up against each other and then they moved that to the NFL. You remember that?

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And I remember it was during spring they would have superstars from the NFL, I think it was called superstars. And they would put them on like obstacle courses and tug of war. They'd never do this now because of an injury happening.

[Dave Nash]

Oh, that's what happened.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

It's a guy from the Patriots, if I remember.

[Dave Nash]

I guess I'm playing volleyball the other

[Dale Hell Astray]

way out of the beach.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Yeah. And the beach volleyball.

[Dave Nash]

But it was touch football and.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, was it. Okay.

[Dave Nash]

Football on the beach.

[John Holmberg]

Sand.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Nobody can get hurt.

[John Holmberg]

No. And that was the. Yeah, exactly. And that's what they're doing with this flag football thing. And eventually you're going to lose somebody that goes, oh, you know, Justin Herbert's going to go out there and I'll do it. And he'll step wrong in a flag football game. Not carrying a blow a knee out, knock it off, knock it off. Or play the game.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Because you know as well as I do, and I said on your show this morning, your world famous, it is local show, massive fact that if there's gonna be 5 million people who watch it, they're gonna keep it on.

[John Holmberg]

But 5 million is not an audience for the NFL to care.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But it isn't.

[John Holmberg]

It's, it's, it's a little grade sponsors

[Dale Hell Astray]

to pay some money.

[John Holmberg]

It's a little money.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

It's almost like, you know, like the, the Beef o Brady's bowl. Like, what are we doing? Nobody's there, gets a couple million. It's just gravy money.

[Dale Hell Astray]

What I, what I've always said about that, whether it's the, the bottom 20 bowls in college or whether it's the Pro bowl, they're going to do it. If you don't want to watch, which I don't know, the last time I watched a Pro bowl, it might have been since 2000.

[John Holmberg]

It's a long time I've not watched the Pro. Wouldn't you rather watch like a skills contest?

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Wouldn't it be better just have the quarterbacks out there and then like a, you know, maybe a relay race or something. Somebody can pull a hamstring in March, it would be okay, right? And they do a, you know, fast. I remember they used to do NFL's fastest man and it was Woodson and Daryl Green and all these dudes got involved. It was fun to watch. But again, a dude gets hurt, it's over. Now you're talking about the 4 million people. Okay, so let's say they make an extra 30 million bucks on the Pro bowl, but you lose a $50 million quarterback who just decided to, and that would boost your ratings.

[Dave Nash]

More opportunity for the next guy.

[John Holmberg]

But that franchise is screwed.

[Dave Nash]

More opportunity.

[John Holmberg]

You can't take Justin Herbert off the Chargers and say, we're fine. You can't.

[Dale Hell Astray]

So, I mean, unless you're Bill Belichick.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, yeah. And then he'd coach him. He'd coach 115 with Matt Castle and then the Chiefs will sign him and do nothing. Yeah, I just, I, I fix the Pro bowl is what I'm saying.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Well, you can't.

[John Holmberg]

You just gotta end it.

[Dale Hell Astray]

It's either cancel it, continue to do the nonsense that they're doing because again, shoulders and. And guess what? 20 years from now. Yeah. It will still say Shadour Sanders, Pro Bowl, Pro bowl quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

And how did he get get voted on? Did all the other quarterback said. They said.

[John Holmberg]

Everyone, everyone said Josh Allen a little hurt. Justin Herbert's not playing. You go down the list of guys who had better seasons than him and you're hard. I mean, Philip Rivers might as well be in there. At least he can't get hurt for next year. Put him in there. It's fun.

[Dave Nash]

That would have been fun.

[John Holmberg]

It would have been a fun one. People might have gone, that's all right. Having one last run with Philip Rivers. Aaron Rodgers had a 10 times better year. Joe Burrow, who didn't play much, had a better year. Speaking of, Geno Smith is the only one in the afc. It's like, good choice.

[Dave Nash]

Like, that would be Aaron Rogers coming back next year.

[John Holmberg]

See, now this is the thing. We get into the Steelers, they hired Mike McCarthy, and as a Steeler fan, I am dealing with all my Steeler friends who are losing their minds. Steeler fans have this problem. They wanted Tomlin out. We're in the grind. Nothing ever changes here. The owners never do anything different. We're mediocre and we're going to stay the 20th pick and we're never going to get that guy. We have to do something different. So they. Tomlin goes. They didn't expect that. Tomlin leaves. And every Steeler fan wanted exactly the same thing they've always done when they hire a coach, which is a young defensive coordinator who's going to be there for 20 years. And instead the Steelers go, most qualified guy Here is Mike McCarthy, who loves Pittsburgh. He's from here. He's a good coach. He's got good numbers. He's shored up an offense that we don't have in Pittsburgh and basically can say, let me bridge this team for that. He's 62. He's only going to be there for. For five years.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Is there. Is there a name with your friends who they wanted?

[John Holmberg]

Everybody had Jesse Minter and when the Ravens hired him, that's a big one. But the Steelers interviewed Shula from the Rams and evidently he bombed the interview to the point where the Steelers didn't ask him for a second one. Even on Zoom, right? And they're just like, it didn't go well. They interviewed all these young guys and didn't See their guy, which is. It's smart.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

That's just smart. And it's safe. It's unsexy, and it certainly isn't the. Oh, my God. Who's. When Cower got hired in the early 90s, everybody's like, who's this idiot from the Dobbs, right.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Love.

[John Holmberg]

But he's a Pittsburgh guy. Tomlin gets hired, who's this moron?

[Dale Hell Astray]

He did.

[John Holmberg]

And if nobody. It turned out okay. Mike McCarthy is a safe. A safe boat in rocky waters. Because the Steelers are treading on some thin ice. Their owner may not be the guy he may not really know. Like, Art currently is not necessarily the most respected in. In Pittsburgh as far as how he's run the organization. It's been a little stagnant. Whereas his. His dad, Dan and everybody always made the moves that were right. He kept it pretty much the same. So when he put Mike McCarthy in, I was kind of like, that's a safe. That's a safe move. It's not pretty, it's not sexy, and it certainly isn't super long term. But you get a good offensive coordinator in there. He learns from Mike McCarthy. Suddenly there's a little excitement. The defensive coordinator looking to hire is the Raiders DC from last year. Graham not thrilled with that idea, but maybe. And he worked with Mike in Dallas. You look at Dallas's numbers with him now, one thing he couldn't do is win with a bad quarterback.

[Dale Hell Astray]

That's a fact.

[John Holmberg]

I mean, he only had Dak 12 wins every time Dak was on the field and Cooper Rush came out there and they couldn't do anything right. Quarterback developed CD Lamb. Yeah, it was a. It was a very safe hire.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And I like that hire for that reason. I don't like it because I would have loved to have another story where they just found this guy sitting in a pile and had the foresight and wherewithal to understand, oh, he's the future. He wasn't there, at least according to them. Now, maybe they miss with Jesse mentor. Maybe Minter goes on and makes the Ravens the greatest thing ever.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Who knows?

[John Holmberg]

And maybe he bombs and maybe he bombs out.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You know, to me, it's almost like, okay, I'm looking at the draft and these quarterbacks who are third, fourth rounders when the season ends.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Now they start doing a few workouts and they go to the combine. Oh, he might be a second rounder. Oh, no. Low first rounds. Like, yeah, he hasn't played a football game.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Well, these young coaches who again, didn't really middle of the season, none of these guys were really. Oh, he's the next guy.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

It's just as the season went along. And also, well, there's four openings and there's five openings, Then there's eight openings.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. A lot.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And you're looking at a bunch of coordinators that are super young. Like, this was a weird batch of dudes in their 30s.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

Because everybody wants that Mike Tomlin find. Everybody wants the mcveigh. They want to find that young super brain that's going to change the game. And if they're just guys coming in saying, I'm a. I've never done it before, and I know the basics of football, and I'm kind of impressive this way and that, but not necessarily everywhere. If I'm the owner of a team, I'm like, give me the established dude. Let me have these next few years to solidify our team. Because that's what they need in Pittsburgh for sure. So I'm not. I'm not against the McCarthy hire. And also could bomb.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

This roster's not that good.

[Dale Hell Astray]

That's the thing.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

It's aging.

[John Holmberg]

Yep.

[Dale Hell Astray]

A lot of money on defense.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Here's how I've always said I would hire a head coach. Number one, obviously. Have you been coaching? You got a little experience. But I am walking. I'm telling my head coach. You start at that end of the building.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And you walk through the building. And if. When you walk into a room, people take a tent to take notice.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Yep.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You're gonna. You have a chance to be my guy for sure. If you walk through the room and everybody who's just writing stuff down or on their computer and nobody notices.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You don't have it.

[John Holmberg]

Don't.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Whatever it is. And again, I've told you the story, and I've told Dave the story. When Jimmy Johnson would come walking down the hall, we could feel him. We could feel him 50ft before he got there. Chan gailey, Barry switzer, Dave campo, they're in the room yelling, hey, hey, hey. Shut up.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Trying to calm the room. Yeah. They're not owning the room. They're calling the room.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

And that great story in Cleveland, and I remember the coach was when. And he said, everybody shut up. Everybody shut up. And one guy did. I think it was. I don't know if it was Denzel ward or one of the players was like, I'm gonna be here longer than you are. It was over.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah, it is. Oh.

[John Holmberg]

When the. When they snap back, it's over. So, yeah, I look at this as a very established thing. He is a guy who's going to own the room and everything else. I think the Cardinals dropped the ball not looking at Mike McCarthy, not giving him the opportunity, whether or not he'd want to be here now. Mike McCarthy's press conference in Pittsburgh was wild. It was so emotional. He started crying the minute he started talking. He was in black and gold swaddling on his way home from the hospital when he was born. He's a Pittsburgh True and blue. This means more to him than the packers and Cowboys in they get him cheap. I don't remember. I don't see what they paid him for. I think they paid him well. I don't think they gave him a.

[Dave Nash]

You think that's why Arizona's waiting to pick a. They're like, hey, you're the last guy.

[John Holmberg]

There's the thing. Dale and I talked about this. This is where and I and. And psych.

[Dale Hell Astray]

The source.

[John Holmberg]

I don't remember what it was. They did a. They did a thing with ranking the teams that haven't made the playoffs from most miserable to closest to being good as a franchise. Cardinals, Jets, Raiders. 1, 2, 3. Cardinals are now ranked the worst franchise to be part of going into next year.

[Dave Nash]

Even worse than the Browns.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Browns were fifth. The Colts were fourth because they're in shame.

[Dave Nash]

You hire a guy that the Ravens were going to fire and they were favorites to win the super bowl and they didn't even make the playoffs and you hire the guy that I think was rumored to. To have to be out the door or harbors out the door.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

You hire him and you lose your defensive coordinator.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Who was one of the best defense coordinators in football.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Look.

[John Holmberg]

And.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And.

[Dave Nash]

And now I know you have a Pro bowl quarterback in Stamps that might

[John Holmberg]

but being the fifth most miserable team is not being good.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

But think of who you're fighting with and I and it's a pretty tight battle. Cardinals, Jets, Raiders, Colts, Browns as just like it says, ranking the most miserable teams in the NFL. That is. That is a tough pill to swallow

[Dale Hell Astray]

if you're the big well. Family and you go, well, at least the Raiders, they have some salary cap rate room. Yeah. And they're going to get Mendoza and

[John Holmberg]

they've got a Max Crosby chip to play.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes they can. And they've got a really good tight end just like the Cardinals do.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But there's like your nose is a little bit above water.

[John Holmberg]

There's hope.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

The Cardinals have none outside of their tight end and sweat on defense. They've got nothing. And Buddha Baker and who are you going to bring? Nobody. And that's the thing. And these coaches aren't sitting there knocking down the door. They're waiting to see what's available.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No, because they're going back to their teams.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And they're getting a little more money because they've been, you know, bandied about as head coach. Get a little more money. And the head coaches tell them, wait till next year.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Wait till next year.

[John Holmberg]

Better things are waiting.

[Dale Hell Astray]

There'll be six more openings next year.

[John Holmberg]

Because what you're looking at right now is, like, the Buccaneers, you know, Washington, maybe Dallas. Like, you start seeing this kind of stuff and you're like, these. These prestigious jobs may open. Even Green Bay. Green Bay has another hiccup up. And they're not going to. And you go to Jordan Love, and like, if I'm a coordinator that's got a hot situation, the last thing I'm going to do is tarnish that with a choice to go to the Cardinals. Although I don't think it stinks as bad as people think. You're not going to be a head coach if you coach here again for a while, but you're going to get another job because they don't. It washes off with the Cardinals excuse. I can't imagine being on the top of several lists as the worst franchise in football and not having a press conference and putting it on the Internet saying, I see it, I know what's going on, and we're gonna change it.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right?

[John Holmberg]

And instead of sitting back going, oh, we like to cast a wide net for coach Ron Rivera is now they're going to be their 16th or 17th interview. Riverboat Ron has been like, just. Has been kind of the Herm Edwards kind of type of. You get teams going a little, and then they. And then they just fall apart. Like, you create a toxic environment everywhere you've been. He's out. Why are you considering that? And Mike McCarthy didn't get a call. Jon Gruden's phone doesn't ring.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

There's dudes waiting that are more qualified than who you're interviewing. And dudes who aren't even qualified are leaving, going, no. Second interview.

[Dave Nash]

Allegedly Gruden was called in New York

[John Holmberg]

and I not to be with the Giants.

[Dave Nash]

The Jets. Oh, same thing, right? No, man.

[John Holmberg]

Not coming out there for that, man.

[Dave Nash]

There's no way.

[John Holmberg]

I thought it was a spam call,

[Dale Hell Astray]

man, but here's what I want. Yeah. I'm sure anybody sees 602.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

On their phone.

[John Holmberg]

VM, we're going to voice message.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But here's what. I would love to be a fly on the wall in those meetings. What's a tripping point? Is it we're not going to pay you market value? Is it you have to take Collar Murray, Is it. You have to. We're getting rid of Kyler Murray. Is it what?

[John Holmberg]

Or is it just Gray and the coaches come in and go. They don't have a plan at all.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

They're leaving it up to me. I'm not doing this.

[Dave Nash]

Are the Cardinals looking for everyone to write like, like, like an essay?

[John Holmberg]

What I'm seeing is you heard about

[Dave Nash]

that with the, with, with the Browns, didn't you?

[John Holmberg]

No. Somebody wrote an essay on it.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No, they asked. They asked.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, I did see that. Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Can you imagine that?

[John Holmberg]

Let's see.

[Dave Nash]

I'm going.

[Dale Hell Astray]

They got a coach before the Cardinals did, so maybe that's the way to go.

[John Holmberg]

They have hope. There's hope in Cleveland. It's more than Arizona. It's not good, but it's. There's more hope there because their defense is. You've got a defense, borderline championship caliber defense. And they're just a mess. And they had Stefanski, who's a good coach.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He's going to go to Atlanta and

[John Holmberg]

he'll do well there. He's got Bijan Robinson. He loves running the ball. Although I've watched when he had Chubb at his peak, not run him at all. And as Steeler fans like, okay, he's getting five yards of carry and you're not giving him the ball. Brilliant. But the Cardinals. I would love to see Michael Bidwell get on a television station and apologize and you know, hat in hand, basically say, I see it, we're an embarrassment. And that's on me.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

And I need. And just to take ownership of how

[Dave Nash]

bad it is, you got a big Wheel show here. Why don't you interview him?

[John Holmberg]

He won't do it.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He doesn't.

[Dave Nash]

Will he do interviews with anyone?

[John Holmberg]

When was the last time you saw him interviewed? That wasn't beneficial to him. You're just open.

[Dave Nash]

You do voice as well.

[John Holmberg]

I could do a Bidwell, do an interview bid.

[Dave Nash]

Well, you do Bidwell. Come on, I'll write it for you.

[John Holmberg]

I don't think I'll write it for you. I've heard him talk enough.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah, that's true.

[John Holmberg]

I haven't heard him say enough.

[Dave Nash]

Then you don't even have to be good.

[John Holmberg]

That's true.

[Dave Nash]

I can just.

[Dale Hell Astray]

It's him.

[Dave Nash]

That's right.

[John Holmberg]

No, I, I, I, I just don't understand how somebody with that kind of cachet doesn't have the wherewithal to sit in front of a group of people and say, I'm gonna wear this. This is my skin.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Because here's what I said. Two things. Number one, I said when he took over for his dad, I thought, to me, a successful owner has some ego.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, has to.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And by ego, meaning I want to win. Which means now, when I'm walking around town, I walk into a restaurant, I walk into a. You're single, like Michael. You go into a bar and people go, michael, hey, I got your drink. Or, hey, come over here. We want to. Whatever. And he hasn't been that way. No.

[John Holmberg]

And, and it's, no one's happy to

[Dale Hell Astray]

see him, you know, and, and instead of, like you said now saying, okay, we screwed this up now for about a decade since Arians left. Yep.

[John Holmberg]

Hubris, man.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Give me some, give me some humility and sit back. And you know how far that would go in this city if he sat back and said, I get it. I, this has been. My name's on this. I'm embarrassed.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Do you think that you're upsetting, man?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. I don't want to hear the cliches of, you know, we cast a wide net. We're going to find the right guy. We feel we're. No, we're going to put the right people in place. And I'm the one who hasn't done that. This has been a mess.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He's going to hire somebody that everybody's going to go, what are you doing? What are you doing? What?

[John Holmberg]

Especially if it's Vance Joseph and you sit back and you're like, you had him in the building.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

You don't see anything like, this interview couldn't be better or more. And if that was true, that you end up hiring him, why did you have to interview all these other people? Because you knew how he coaches. You've seen him in action.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

You interview him, he wants the job. Get him right there.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Well, you get a coach in town and you interview him one day and say, hey, yeah, we're going to put you up, we're going to do dinner, Come back the next day. You bring a coach back for the second day of an interview, and you don't hire him. Yeah, I would love to know why.

[John Holmberg]

I feel like this is more analysis of what's wrong with the team rather than, like, their Process. They don't know what they're doing. I mean, that's really what this comes down to.

[Dave Nash]

I just realized, listen, this. You guys are describing that water is wet.

[John Holmberg]

It's true. But again, you want to figure it out, because the fans deserve it. The people who play on the team deserve it. Monty, Austin, Forts of the world. Jonathan Gannon's of the world, you'd love for them. They're too classy to come out and say, that's an absolute mess, and I don't know how I could have fixed it.

[Dave Nash]

You can't get Bidwell, can you get Austin?

[John Holmberg]

Monty, Austin Pfeffer. I could try. But I'll tell you this. I've talked about cardinal stuff before, and they show up with rules. Don't talk about this. We can't do this. Don't go down this road. I talked to Michael Bidwell at a charity event a long time ago, Long time ago. And I was chatting with him, and I said, I got to tell you, I was on Tatum road, and I was behind a. A blue Rolls Royce, a light blue Rolls Royce. And I'm like, this dude was going 14 miles an hour down Tatum and driving me nuts. And I'm honking and yelling, and I get by and I'm screaming and I'm losing my mind with road rage. And it's his dad, dad, Bill Bidwell. And I said, so apologize to your dad. I'm the lunatic in the Jeep. And he goes, that's my father's car. I'm like, right? I just told you, that's your dad. There was nothing, nobody reacting to anything other than, how dare you? Don't you know who we are? And I was basically making a joke, but it was an affront to the Bidwells how you treat us. We have reverence. No. You know, especially if you're driving 14 in the middle of a day on Tatum. That was a pain in the ass getting around him. But I made the joke, and I kind of realized at that moment, they don't have humility. They don't have anything about themselves that you can poke, you can't play. They believe they're more than they are.

[Dave Nash]

How many people do you know that are born with big money?

[John Holmberg]

It's very true that do that. Don't understand being dropped down a peg, even in a kind of buddy, buddy nudge way.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And I've never thought about. Until Steve McCollum brought. Brought this up a year ago.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He said, second generation.

[John Holmberg]

Third.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Second. But second. And then it's not getting Any better than the third? Nope. It's going down.

[John Holmberg]

It's the movie Multiplicity. Michael Keaton, he invented himself and then could duplicate by the third or fourth one. It started getting a little stupid and didn't really get what the first one knew, but it was. It was just. It looked right.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But here's. And then to add to all that, you have this Lieutenant Mark Dalton. Sultan.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Who protects them with an iron clad. Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Protection and leverage will steal this from you. We will not advertise here. We will not do anything. You get no access to us.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You will. Yeah. You will not be able to send reporters out here and all that. Which is crazy.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. It's. It's. I mean, everybody loves the word fascism nowadays. This is kind of football fascism. Let's get into other things. Any coaches that got hired that. You guys. You kind of mentioned the Browns coaching thing was a little surprising. I think everybody's done kind of the right thing. I think what went on in Baltimore, the one that I leaned on, that because I have a few friends who are Bills fans, is the Joe Brady hire.

[Dave Nash]

I don't mind. I don't understand that. I don't understand that one.

[John Holmberg]

I understand.

[Dave Nash]

I don't understand all.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You know, it's very easy to understand Joe Brady.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. Is it money?

[Dale Hell Astray]

Maybe a little bit of money.

[John Holmberg]

But Josh Allen.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Josh Allen.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. That's.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Josh Allen was. Is the only guy that you care about what his opinion is.

[Dave Nash]

And then Josh Allen made a mistake because.

[John Holmberg]

I agree.

[Dale Hell Astray]

All right.

[Dave Nash]

Here's your offense coordinator. That. That's. That's doing the. The offense wasn't the problem, was it?

[John Holmberg]

Not at all. Number one rusher in football, the quarterback.

[Dave Nash]

Obviously the problem. They needed actually to bring someone in there to actually.

[Dale Hell Astray]

So maybe he can bring a defensive coordinator. But all I'm going to say, it's just like with the Cardinals. Whenever players start coming out and defending a coach. Yeah. In a horrendously losing season.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

That means that they're comfortable.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Being 4 and 13.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

And coaches making it. You don't want that.

[John Holmberg]

No change.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No. I mean, the guy with the Raiders defensive end, Crosby, who's all world.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

But he's fighting for Antonio Pierce. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, trade me or sign it.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No. You don't ever acquiesce to a player

[John Holmberg]

I liked in Pittsburgh that they just. They fired their defensive line coach or not bringing him back. And he's a guy named Carl Dunbar. He's. He's been great. That defensive line's been really good for a while. But comfort Bill Cower used to say that he goes, I'd fire coaches every three or four years to get new faces in the building.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

You know, there's a few. Just certain things have to change or it gets stagnant. And it doesn't necessarily mean you're, you're, you're, you know, you don't pick the, you know, you're not going to do it to Dick LeBeau or somebody like that, but you're going to find a coordinator in there and go, you know, we're just going to make a move here. Or you're going to shuffle you out of the room you've been in for five years. You're no longer the wide receivers guy.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You know, let me tell you, I'm

[Dave Nash]

gonna remember what you said three years from now when we're doing.

[John Holmberg]

Why you know what I just say?

[Dave Nash]

We might need to change some faces.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, all right. Yeah. No, you know what? I've been thinking about that already, but

[Dale Hell Astray]

I had the same off as line coach in Dallas for like 11 years.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah. You know, but by year five, you'd heard it all. But they're coming over to our house for dinner. They're having Brooke and I over for dinner to their house. It's a completely different relationship to where obviously if I was a starter and playing it, it would probably be a little more uncomfortable as a backup. It didn't really. True. But it's just fascinating when you talk about that, that three, four, five years and all of a sudden you're the same player, same coach, and all of a sudden you're calling him Hud.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. He's your buddy.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yes.

[John Holmberg]

Yep.

[Dale Hell Astray]

It's, it's, it's kind of funny.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. And I, and I, yeah, I do see that as kind of a thing that if you're gonna fire your head coach, you need to mix something up. And bringing up the OC when it never was mentioned before, like Joe Brady's running this thing.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Right.

[John Holmberg]

In fact, Bill's fans didn't like him because he was. He got Josh Allen. If it wasn't for Josh Allen, a lot of those offensive plays get killed because he's making things happen.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Josh Allen on his own.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, they weren't designed to go that way. Probably 15% of the time, and a lot of times you get, you know, the plays are all as executed, but, man, Josh Allen made that offense tick a little bit more than it would have. So hiring him was just sort of a weird move.

[Dale Hell Astray]

One last thing about that so my second to last year in Dallas, they hired Dave Campo.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Dave Campo started off as a defensive backs coach in 89 people in his back coach, I don't know, mid-90s by the time Dave wants to have went somewhere. And Butch Davis, all of a sudden he's defensive coordinator. He's kind of a little dude. He's camps.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Like, you walk by him and you mess his hair up. Yeah, he's camp. And now he's the head coach.

[John Holmberg]

Now he's the man.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He's a head coach from within. You know, if he came from another team, we don't know him. But he's camp now. He's the head coach.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. The dynamic can't change.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No, we still call. We still call him camps.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, it's tough. It's even tough in any business when your buddy sitting next to you at the cubicle gets the job as your boss and you're like, yeah, I've been dicking around with you for 10 years now. You're my. All right, I'll listen to you. But it's tough for some people to absorb that, and it's not easy when you're in a testosterone fueled nightmare that you've got to control. Yeah. I look at that coaching things that have happened, I've liked most of them. I liked what the Ravens did. Didn't understand Miami search at all. That was weird. But they got a guy and you're like, I don't know if it was the right move or not, but that seems strange. But for the most part, everybody's been acceptable, save for maybe the Browns. I thought that was kind of crazy, and I love that it happened.

[Dale Hell Astray]

They heard Mangan, right?

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, yeah. The guy from the Ravens who.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[John Holmberg]

Was getting the blame for why the Ravens offense was stagnant. It doesn't make any sense. But Todd Monken was the one, and the Browns are in the same spot. It's like, nobody wants this job. This guy seems to. He'll take it.

[Dave Nash]

Well, they had a guy in the building.

[John Holmberg]

Oh, for sure.

[Dave Nash]

Listen.

[John Holmberg]

But I don't think he wants to be a head coach.

[Dave Nash]

Yes, he did.

[John Holmberg]

Jim Schwartz wants to coach again.

[Dave Nash]

He did. He thought he had the job and now he's out. He's saying, I'm not coming back.

[John Holmberg]

Well, if I don't blame him for that. And when he made the announcement, every person that loves the Steelers was like, get him on the phone. He's the D.C. in Pittsburgh. Like, I would have loved that. But I think the fact of the matter is I don't know if they own him for a year or not.

[Dave Nash]

I think they. I think he's still in the contract.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah. So I think that was the kind of sticking point.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, but I mean you can't make him coach. He's going to walk away.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't blame him but I mean you got again, you're going to mix it up. You got to get rid of everything. I don't think unless you were clear cut going Schwartz as the head coach of this team, that wasn't the case in. And they just want to get rid of Stefanski because that's the thing to do that, right? Yeah, but. But it's a crazy, crazy off season. We haven't even gotten to talking about Sam Darnold, Future Super Bowl MVPansky.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Is he hall of Fame coach didn't

[John Holmberg]

have a quarterback but he would be. We should put him in Dale. Let's get him in the hall of Fame because we both know that in in Dungeons and Dragons world over there, had we given him Tom Brady, he'd have clearly been in the hall of Fame. And that's the only reason reason you and I could have coached that team.

[Dave Nash]

It's nice you guys don't know quarterbacks. No, you know, listen, the Darnold he.

[John Holmberg]

Are we going back to that?

[Dave Nash]

He is a serviceable, very confident quarterback and that's all you want.

[John Holmberg]

30 wins in two years on two different teams.

[Dave Nash]

It's him that's a serviceable.

[John Holmberg]

No, it is not.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He's playing in a Super Bowl.

[Dave Nash]

You're talking.

[John Holmberg]

You're probably. I'll take his service thing you.

[Dave Nash]

But again, 8020 Rule 20% of the T guys have 80% of the talent and vice versa.

[John Holmberg]

He. He's moved into the top 10.

[Dave Nash]

Okay, I'll name you 10 quarterbacks I'd rather have.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

Go Mahomes. Serviceable.

[Dave Nash]

Joe. Joe Burrow. Lamar.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Okay, hold on. Stop.

[John Holmberg]

I wouldn't take Joe Burrow over him right now. What?

[Dale Hell Astray]

No, hold on.

[John Holmberg]

He's not durable.

[Dave Nash]

No, hold on, listen.

[John Holmberg]

He's not durable.

[Dale Hell Astray]

No, hold on. You got Malone fight who's been who, who's gonna. Who's injured. Who knows what's gonna happen when he comes back. You got Burrow in Cincinnati. He gets hurt every year and a half.

[Dave Nash]

I, I would love to have Joe Burrow. I'm going off the characteristics or the criteria that I have one game to win. What do I. Who do I want as my quarterback? Okay, well if I want one game to Win. Who do I want as my quarterback

[Dale Hell Astray]

if I'm playing an NFC championship game last week? Yeah, I want Sam Darnold.

[John Holmberg]

Absolutely. And I've watched Joe Burrow not win big games in playoffs, so, I mean, they're kind of getting to the point

[Dave Nash]

where he got to the Super Bowl.

[John Holmberg]

I know.

[Dave Nash]

So did Sam Darnold, right?

[Dale Hell Astray]

Okay. Oh, he did.

[Dave Nash]

Matt Staff. Your Matt Stafford. Yeah, he. The kid from Sandy La.

[John Holmberg]

Herbert over Darnold right now.

[Dale Hell Astray]

I don't know.

[Dave Nash]

Caleb Williams?

[Dale Hell Astray]

No.

[Dave Nash]

Jalen Daniels?

[John Holmberg]

No.

[Dave Nash]

Drake? Maybe Prescott?

[Dale Hell Astray]

No.

[John Holmberg]

Jared Goff?

[Dave Nash]

I have. You take Jared Goff and I don't like Jared Goff.

[John Holmberg]

You've got five in a row you've named off that are at least arguably under sample.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He might be top five.

[John Holmberg]

I think they just made the argument we moved him up because you just rattled off four that I'm like. Nope. So, yeah, he's fifth. Thanks, Dave.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, there you go.

[John Holmberg]

Top five quarterback.

[Dave Nash]

Will agree to disagree.

[John Holmberg]

Well, that seems to be the way you're going to run it, man. That's. Yeah. Darnold is a bad man right now. Like, he's.

[Dave Nash]

When I.

[John Holmberg]

He's making.

[Dave Nash]

When I say serviceable. It.

[John Holmberg]

You either have like Chris Chandler. Serviceable.

[Dave Nash]

Brad Williams, you have the elite quarterbacks. There's. There's six or seven every year.

[John Holmberg]

Brad Johnson.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Sorry.

[Dave Nash]

And then you have the other guys you can win with and these and all those names you can win with. I don't think Sam Darnold is going to win you a game.

[John Holmberg]

He's.

[Dave Nash]

You. You will win with him.

[John Holmberg]

He just did.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Doing it. It.

[Dave Nash]

He's not going to make special plays that other quarterbacks can't win. You want a.

[John Holmberg]

What game did you watch last year?

[Dave Nash]

I'm just sorry.

[John Holmberg]

He was whipping the ball.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Watch any of the playoff games. He.

[John Holmberg]

And again you're going to say, well, he's got that receiver that catches everything. But I mean the dude is putting the ball pinpoint on.

[Dave Nash]

All quarterbacks can be accurate. I'm not saying he's. What you mean he's more accurate than. Than, than the, the guys I just talked about.

[Dale Hell Astray]

You're not.

[Dave Nash]

He's more accurate than all those guys I just.

[John Holmberg]

Accuracy last week.

[Dave Nash]

He's incredible. He. I don't know how he even has

[John Holmberg]

an incomplete pass the last two games. I was marveling most at his accuracy.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He's.

[John Holmberg]

He was ridiculous.

[Dave Nash]

He's on a roll. Good for him.

[John Holmberg]

That's awesome. It happens to be.

[Dale Hell Astray]

He's won 30.

[John Holmberg]

30 games in two years.

[Dave Nash]

That's a Very good defense. Defense he had in Minnesota and a very good defense.

[John Holmberg]

And Minnesota without him caved.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Oh, God.

[John Holmberg]

The defense wasn't that different.

[Dave Nash]

And because they didn't have a serviceable quarterback, because Minnesota had a serviceable quarterback instead they would argue that they did

[John Holmberg]

have a service quarterback and they ended up with seven wins. Serviceable.

[Dave Nash]

That they. They won seven games with a quarterback.

[John Holmberg]

Aaron Rodgers is currently a serviceable quarterback.

[Dave Nash]

Correct.

[John Holmberg]

Sam Darnold is better than Aaron Rodgers right now.

[Dave Nash]

Correct. I'll agree with that.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Well, serviceable sounds, Dave, like you throw in a frappe machine.

[John Holmberg]

And yes, it also sounds like if he wasn't on the team. Plug in the next.

[Dave Nash]

I'll give you a comparison. I feel Sam Darnold is very similar to Dak Prescott.

[John Holmberg]

He.

[Dave Nash]

He very. He's good there. You can win with him. You can win a Super bowl with him.

[John Holmberg]

No, you can't.

[Dave Nash]

He's going to do the right things with you. You can win a Super bowl with Dax if defense ever gets together.

[John Holmberg]

No, you can't.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, well, evidence.

[John Holmberg]

Evidence. Using logical courtroom evidence, you cannot win a Super bowl because you never get to it.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Because he has a chance.

[John Holmberg]

He's in one.

[Dave Nash]

I get it. But in regards to the quarterback position, I don't see a difference between Darnold and Dak. I don't see a difference between Darnold and Golf. And they're.

[John Holmberg]

And they're.

[Dave Nash]

And they're really good quarterbacks.

[John Holmberg]

I do.

[Dave Nash]

They're not.

[John Holmberg]

The guys you just mentioned aren't even in the playoffs and this guy's in the Super Bowl.

[Dave Nash]

Yeah, listen, he has a very good coach there.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

They have a great defense. They have a great running game. They have two good running backs. They have a good office line.

[John Holmberg]

Last week you're describing the New England patriots of the 2000s.

[Dave Nash]

Okay. Right. They have everything. They almost. They. They were not much different with Geno Smith. And I don't think much of Geno Smith. I don't think much of Geno. What's that?

[John Holmberg]

They had the losing record last year. They were. Or 9 and 8.

[Dave Nash]

Maybe they were.

[John Holmberg]

They were right around 500.

[Dave Nash]

They have a better defense this year. Better running game this year. No doubt about it.

[John Holmberg]

You just hate Sam Darnold.

[Dave Nash]

I don't hate him.

[John Holmberg]

You are racist against gingers.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

He is a.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Hey. And by the way, that's. That's going to blow your whole.

[John Holmberg]

Ruin everything up. I'm going to have to come back with a Nash argument.

[Dale Hell Astray]

That.

[Dave Nash]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

Other than him, that's it. I wanted to talk about LeBron James.

[Dave Nash]

I don't see Darnold being any different than Baker Mayfield.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Wow.

[John Holmberg]

Except for.

[Dave Nash]

Except for he's there one better team

[John Holmberg]

around him and one isn't. They were. What are they? Seven and one to start the season and caved in.

[Dave Nash]

Okay.

[John Holmberg]

Right.

[Dave Nash]

My point is when he's going.

[John Holmberg]

Yeah.

[Dave Nash]

Baker Mayfield, when he's going, he's got a good team around him. You can win a Super bowl with him. You can win a Super Bowl.

[John Holmberg]

Dak.

[Dave Nash]

You can win a Super bowl with Darnold.

[John Holmberg]

You can't. You prove they. You have to get to the super bowl to win it.

[Dave Nash]

After this year, you can win a Super bowl with all those guys. You can't say that after next year.

[John Holmberg]

You could win a Super bowl with Neil o'.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Donnell.

[Dave Nash]

You could have no serviceable quarterback. He got there.

[John Holmberg]

That's a serviceable quarterback.

[Dave Nash]

That's correct.

[John Holmberg]

And then when he went somewhere and proved, oh, just that, the wheels fell off, he.

[Dave Nash]

I would agree.

[John Holmberg]

He never won 30 games in a

[Dave Nash]

row then

[John Holmberg]

a Super bowl. Serviceable quarterback.

[Dave Nash]

Brad Johnson, another great example. Dilfer is not even serviceable. But that was just a great defense that led him there. He was just a body that was taking snaps, staying hot.

[John Holmberg]

See, we don't even need the last five minutes. You've spent the first hour being insane today.

[Dave Nash]

Game over.

[John Holmberg]

I am tired of talking to you morons. All right, this is. This is a good one today.

[Dale Hell Astray]

It started off with, man, I'm really not arguing against Belichick in the hall of Fame, but you guys

[John Holmberg]

continue to anyway.

[Dale Hell Astray]

Wow.

[John Holmberg]

Gez Louise. I don't know what he's getting over there. It's that Summit Mayo Medical, but you might want to tone it down a little on that stuff.

[Dale Hell Astray]

It's is.

[John Holmberg]

That's it. Let's be done. The sports thing. A John Hoberg podcast featuring those two is all done. We're done. That's enough.