The Spy Who Infiltrated Auschwitz | Pilecki’s Great-Grandson on the Man Behind the Mission | 4

Summary

Summary: The Spy Who Infiltrated Auschwitz | Pilecki’s Great-Grandson on the Man Behind the Mission | Episode 4

Introduction

In the poignant final episode of "The Spy Who Infiltrated Auschwitz," hosted by Charlie Higson, the podcast delves deep into the extraordinary life of Witold Pilecki—a Polish resistance soldier who voluntarily entered Auschwitz concentration camp to gather intelligence and report its atrocities to the world. Joining Charlie is Christoph Kosha, Witold Pilecki's great-grandson, who shares personal insights and family stories that shed light on Pilecki's multifaceted character and enduring legacy.

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Witold Pilecki’s Multifaceted Character

Christoph Kosha paints a vivid picture of his great-grandfather Witold Pilecki, describing him as "three different kinds of person at the same time"—a dedicated military man, a community organizer, and an unofficial spy (04:03). This unique combination of roles showcased Witold's ability to blend seamlessly into different environments, making him exceptionally effective in his mission to infiltrate Auschwitz.

Family Memories and Personal Stories

Christoph shares endearing anecdotes about Witold's courtship of his great-grandmother, Maria Pilecka. He recounts how Witold, a cavalryman, competed with other suitors by displaying grand gestures such as riding his horse at full speed and sending large bouquets of Maria's favorite flowers directly to her window (04:49). These stories highlight Witold's determination and charismatic nature, traits that were instrumental in his later clandestine activities.

Domestic Life and Military Discipline

Christoph explains how Witold's military background influenced his approach to running the household. Maria recalls a structured morning routine where children were expected to wash their hands and sit straight for breakfast, respecting Witold's disciplined demeanor even at home (06:22). This blend of military precision and familial warmth created a unique household dynamic, balancing Witold's public bravery with his role as a devoted family man.

The Auschwitz Mission and Emotional Impact

The episode delves into Witold's harrowing mission to Auschwitz, where he spent nearly three years building an intelligence network within the camp. Christoph shares his own emotional experience visiting Auschwitz, describing the initial numbness that gradually gave way to overwhelming emotions upon witnessing the camp's brutal reality (09:15). This personal reflection underscores the profound human impact of Witold's sacrifice and the enduring trauma he endured.

Identity Swap and Unbelievable Encounters

A remarkable aspect of Witold's story involves his adoption of the identity Tomasz Serafinsky, obtained from an ID card he found amidst the Warsaw bombing rubble. Christoph narrates the extraordinary encounter where Witold, having lived under this alias for over two and a half years, meets the real Tomasz Serafinsky during his escape from Auschwitz (14:08). This near-miraculous event underscores the dangers and complexities of Witold's mission, highlighting the thin line he walked between survival and exposure.

Post-War Struggles and Communist Persecution

After World War II, Witold continued his resistance against the Soviet-backed communist regime in Poland. Christoph explains that Witold's unwavering Polish patriotism and anti-communist stance made him a target for the new authorities, leading to his arrest in 1947 and subsequent execution in 1948 (17:22). The communist government systematically erased Witold's contributions, removing his name from public records and suppressing his legacy to eliminate any threats to their power.

Family’s Ordeal During Persecution

The Kosha family endured immense hardship following Witold's arrest. Maria faced severe repercussions, including unemployment and social ostracism, as she was labeled the wife of a traitor (23:34). Christoph describes the family's struggle to survive, relying on basic support from neighbors and enduring the emotional torment of not knowing Witold's fate. This period was marked by desperation and resilience, reflecting the broader suffering inflicted by the oppressive communist regime.

Rediscovery and Rehabilitation of Witold Pilecki’s Legacy

It wasn’t until the fall of communism in Poland around 1990 that the truth about Witold's fate emerged. Christoph recounts how newly accessible archives revealed the documents confirming Witold's execution, bringing closure to the family after decades of uncertainty (25:43). His grandmother, Zofia, played a pivotal role in resurrecting Witold's story, tirelessly working to ensure his heroism was recognized and remembered. This resurgence led to the establishment of the Pilecki Institute and numerous commemorations, restoring Witold's rightful place in history.

Modern-Day Relevance and Legacy

Christoph expresses concern over how contemporary political groups in Poland, particularly nationalist right-wing factions, are appropriating Witold's legacy for their own ends (28:31). He emphasizes that Witold's patriotism was rooted in a genuine love for Poland, devoid of the exclusionary tendencies often associated with modern nationalism. Christoph advocates for preserving the integrity of Witold's story, ensuring it remains a testament to courage and truth rather than a tool for political agendas.

Personal Reflections and Familial Connection

For Christoph, Witold Pilecki embodies resilience, truth, and unwavering dedication to the common good. He reflects on Witold's ability to compartmentalize his dangerous mission from his role as a family man, highlighting the personal sacrifices he made (31:45). Christoph also shares a touching personal moment when he was told he resembles Witold, symbolizing the lasting familial bond and the enduring impact of Witold's legacy on future generations (32:41).

Conclusion

Charlie Higson wraps up the episode by acknowledging Christoph's invaluable insights into Witold Pilecki's life and legacy. The conversation underscores the profound sacrifices made by Witold and the enduring importance of remembering and honoring such heroes. Christoph's reflections offer a deeply personal perspective, emphasizing the necessity of truth and collective memory in preserving the legacies of those who fought against tyranny.

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Notable Quotes

• Christoph Kosha on Witold’s Multifaceted Nature:
  "He was like, I would say, three different kinds of person at the same time... he was also a kind of spy, which was unofficial." (04:03)

• Christoph on Emotional Impact of Auschwitz Visit:
  "It's hard for me to describe in English, I guess, but it begins with some being a little bit numb... And then suddenly these emotions... they come to you. Don't really know why, but they kind of overwhelm you." (09:15)

• Christoph on Witold’s Legacy:
  "If you really want something to happen, you have to work hard to do it. And in most cases, it's possible... being truthful. It was very important for Witold for the truth to be told." (31:45)

• Christoph on Modern Appropriation of Witold’s Image:
  "Sometimes they try to mud the water a little bit around here. Him also, these right wingers... But when they talk about history, it's totally fine as long as he says truth, it's fine." (28:31)

• Christoph Reflecting on Familial Resemblance:
  "But I've seen myself in the mirror. I look a little bit different, so bigger nose, bigger mouth. And she's like, yes, yes, you're right. But your receding hairline is exactly the same." (32:41)

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting the key discussions between Charlie Higson and Christoph Kosha. It provides a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode while preserving the emotional and historical significance of Witold Pilecki's story.

Transcript

[Unknown Announcer]

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[Charlie Higson]

From Wondery. I'm Charlie Hickson, spy, novelist, actor, comedian, and this is the Spy who. Thank you for joining us for our final episode of the Spy who Infiltrated Auschwitz. It's a harrowing story, probably the hardest we've covered yet. Polish resistance soldier Witold Pilecki voluntarily entered Auschwitz and was imprisoned there for nearly three years. His mission was to build a network that could tell the world the truth about the camp. But when his intelligence reached the Allied forces, nothing happened. There was no rescue, no action. So his mission changed. He either had to accept death or escape in order to show the world the full horror of Auschwitz. After his escape and after the war, life in Poland continued to be full of conflict. The Soviet Union's power over Poland grew ever stronger. Witold fought this communist takeover until May 1947, when he was arrested by the secret police. A year later, he was executed and his story was all but erased from history by Poland's Communist government. But the extensive report Witold wrote about Auschwitz survived him, and when the Soviet Union dissolved, his work came to light. In this episode, I'm going to speak to Christoph Kosha, Witold Pilecki's great grandson. Born in 1983, Christoph learned about Witold through stories told by his grandmother Zofia, Witold's daughter, and his great grandmother Maria, Witold's wife.

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[Charlie Higson]

So, hello, Christophe, and welcome to the podcast and thank you so much for joining me today. Do you do a lot of this sort of thing, talking about your great grandfather?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Hello, and thank you for having me. Not that much. It happens sometimes, especially. I joined my grandmother in some trips to some schools, for example, so it's not like my everyday thing to do.

[Charlie Higson]

We'll look into the story of Witold as a spy in Auschwitz a little later, but for now, because we have you and we have that personal connection to Witold. What sort of a man was he?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Well, he was like, I would say, three different kinds of person at the same time. Like officially, yes, he was a military man. Then he was a kind of, I don't want to call it a social worker, but someone who is really bonding together the local society. And then he was also a kind of spy, which was unofficial. So we do not really like the word spy in Polish because it has some negative connotations.

[Charlie Higson]

And so did your family talk about him a lot? I mean, what sort of stories did they tell about him?

[Unknown Advertiser]

It was quite interesting because I was a little bit brought up also by his wife. So my great grandma, Maria Pilecka.

[Charlie Higson]

Did she tell you about how she met him, how they got together?

[Unknown Advertiser]

When he met my great grandmother Maria, he was very. So he had to fight for her. He was the cavalryman. And she had some other guys around, her military pilot, for example. So that was some kind of competition between them. He was approaching her very directly. He was sometimes riding full speed on his horse and throwing a bouquet of flowers into her window. So he figured out what kind of flowers she likes. And then he was just getting huge bouquets of those flowers. This was this competition with the airmen. And he saw it once that this guy is at Maria's place because his bicycle was there. He had, like, small military airfield, some, I don't know, six miles, eight miles away. So he was cycling there and he saw the bicycle. So he asked one of the guys to take it back to the military base because he said, well, the pilot should be flying aeroplanes and not cycling. So I can imagine this guy Was really surprised when he went out and the bicycle wasn't there and probably relieved when he found it back at his airfield. But yeah, it was kind of a very direct approach, I would say.

[Charlie Higson]

You were talking about the different sides of Vitol's life, the military side and the domestic side. Did some of his military side come into his domestic life in the way he ran the household?

[Unknown Advertiser]

My grandma remembers that it was a little bit like military drill, I would say. So when you were getting to the breakfast, you should have your hands washed, sit straight and tell your father, yes, I'm ready to receive the porridge, for example. Yeah. Because Maria was working in the school and he was staying at home, so he was also taking care of the children quite often.

[Charlie Higson]

But presumably that can't have been a very long part of his life as how quickly he got involved in. Obviously, as the Second World War loomed.

[Unknown Advertiser]

He had so little time with them and half of it was just letters being sent from somewhere. But they remember him very fondly and they both Sophia and her brother Andrzej, they think that he really brought them up, these little moments they had together and the letters. But obviously they missed him a lot. Yes.

[Charlie Higson]

Yeah. Do you have family photos from that time?

[Unknown Advertiser]

We do some, but just a few. Yeah. Like most of them really stayed in the east and are lost.

[Charlie Higson]

So your grandmother, that's Zofje?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yes, yes. Zofjea, that's Witold's daughter.

[Charlie Higson]

Did she know much about the secret side, that side of his life?

[Unknown Advertiser]

No, I don't think so. I think they were oblivious. They knew that he is organizing some kind of horse riding force. So this was more like official. But the intelligence part was totally unknown to anyone in the family.

[Charlie Higson]

Yeah, obviously this being a podcast, being audio, we can't see Witold. Can you just describe him, what he looked like?

[Unknown Advertiser]

He was like average. That's what's in most descriptions. Yes, that he was very average. Not really anything very special about him. Quite quiet, rather big forehead, would I say? Yeah, I guess. Intelligent eyes which would look at you and try to figure out what kind of person are you.

[Charlie Higson]

He sounds like he had the perfect character for being a spy.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Really? It seems so, yes. So he didn't stand out that much. Also he was very approachable. That was his thing, that he could put many people together and make them work in the common cause.

[Charlie Higson]

So where did you grow up, Christoph? And how far away is that from Auschwitz and the events of your great grandfather?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Not that close really. I was born and brought up in Warsaw. Then when I was around 8. I was moved like 20 km southwest from Warsaw, so to the countryside. But I went to Auschwitz camp when I was around 30, I think. So it took lots of time for me. I was pretty sure I don't want to go there for many years.

[Charlie Higson]

Why was that?

[Unknown Advertiser]

I was convinced that I would not be able to feel it or understand it. I still do not understand how you can build something like that. When I was 20, I just felt, no, please do not force me to go there.

[Charlie Higson]

And how was it within the family? Did they say, oh, you should go and see Auschwitz?

[Unknown Advertiser]

No, I never. It was probably that they thought that if I want, I can, but they never told me that I should.

[Charlie Higson]

So what had changed for you when you did go? What caused you to change your mind?

[Unknown Advertiser]

First I read the reports. So they were made available because they were coded before. Yes. So you could see, like number 270 did something. And then he went on number 117, and it wasn't so good to read. So when they decoded it in the early 2000 years, I think I read it twice and I thought, it's extraordinary, really, story so, you know, complicated. And it also took me some years to prepare for it. But then I thought, maybe it's time to go to Auschwitz camp and see it the first time. There was lots of emotions. So it's hard for me to describe in English, I guess, but it begins with some being a little bit numb, I would say. So you just sightseeing, just like, oh, this is the place where they shoot people, this is the place they hang people, they lived here and blah, blah, blah, this gate saying, arbeit macht freija. And this is the square. They kept them for many hours, for example, in the snow. So, okay. And then suddenly these emotions, like from within yourself or from the ground, they come to you. Don't really know why, but they kind of overwhelm you. And the tears come to your eye and your throat just closes. Yeah. And I felt it the most in Birkenau. Yeah. So Camp 2, it was like just approaching. It was already.

[Charlie Higson]

I suppose Witold himself must have had similar emotions when he went in, because he kind of expected. He can't really have known what it was like in there and what was actually happening. And slowly unfolded and got worse and worse for as long as he was in there, until he knew he had to get out.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yes, he had a not very warm welcome. So he wrote that he lost one of his teeth because he. He didn't carry his number in his mouth, as the couple wanted. He put it in his hand and then they just hit him with a baton. He was there when this camp was changing from some kind of a prison, let's call it like a work prison, for people to really do something into this death camp. Along the years, he was there for 947 days. So that's a lot of time. And I believe he really seen all these situations where his friends were killed, for example, in front of him and he could not react. That's. Yeah, I believe he can do something to you also. Yeah. Like change you internally.

[Charlie Higson]

When you were in walking around camp number one, did you get a sense of the sort of footsteps of your great grandfather?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yes, it was quite interesting because I went also once with Jack Fairweather. So he's the author of one of the books. And he described like he was making sure that everything he read in the report is. You can see it nowadays. You can read in the report, for example, they were walking on the alley of trees, like birch trees, I think on the border of the camp. So I was trying to find that. Then there is the infamous wall where they were doing the executions by shooting people. The bakery is non existent anymore. Adam Tsira. So one of the historians who walks there showed me where it was, but it was behind the outside of the camp and it's not there anymore.

[Charlie Higson]

So when you came to read the report, was that part of your process of trying to understand what had happened and what came out of it for you? Could you get a sense of him writing in it?

[Unknown Advertiser]

I mean, what it. For sure, it brought me closer to him, to know him a little bit. It's like 100 pages, so not that long. But it's written a little bit, I don't know the good word, maybe lightheartedly a little bit. So it's not like totally. In some places it does push you to the ground when he's describing these killings and so on. But sometimes there is some kind of a joke here and there.

[Charlie Higson]

Some of his personality comes through in.

[Unknown Advertiser]

It and tells a little bit about Witold also. Yes. When you are in the hell on earth, then you try to grab at least something that's a little bit more lightly shaded.

[Charlie Higson]

Yeah. An extraordinary part of the story is that in order to hide his own identity, he took on the identity of Tomasz Serafinsky and used his ID card. And then later on he ended up meeting the real Thomas Serafinsky. Can you talk us through how that all happened, how that worked?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, I laugh because if you Put it in a movie script. It seems not possible to happen. So Warsaw was bombed during 1939 when the Germans were attacking it. And in one of the raised houses he found this ID card. There was good probability that this person, a military man, Tomasz Serafinsky, simply died there. And his document is there in the rubble. So he used his identity because he said, okay, this guy died, but nobody knows about it officially. So he became Tomasz Serafinsky for this mission in Auschwitz. And then he spent there like more than two and a half years. And when he was escaping, he was going towards the city of Bochnia. He got information that they got one of the guides. And he said, yeah, I will meet you with the local head of one of the resistance cells from the home army. And his name is Tomasz Serafinsky. And he was like, how is that possible? Yeah, so yes, I have to meet him for sure. And they introduced themselves and the real Thomas Serafinsky gave his hand vital replied, Tomasz Serafinski, born on that and that day in that and that city. And he said, that's my info. Yeah. And he said, yes, that's your info, but I have lived with this info quite an interesting three years.

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[Charlie Higson]

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[Unknown Advertiser]

Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. That breathy one sounded very creepy, am I right?

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[Charlie Higson]

After the Second World War ended, the communist Polish government tried to erase Witold and his story. His name was removed from public records, silenced in schools and in the media. And he went unknown by the Polish people and the world for many decades because he was considered a threat to the communist. Why was he such a threat?

[Unknown Advertiser]

I think it's because he was just pro Polish. He was anti communist in all his life. And they, I mean the communists, they didn't want any local patriotism, Polish patriotism. It was supposed to be like a big eastern bloc of many nations all.

[Charlie Higson]

Joined together against the threat of the Nazis.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Exactly. Under the red banner. And that's all. Yeah. So he was against it. So we get rid of him.

[Charlie Higson]

So when he returned home after the war, was he already someone that the authorities didn't want people to talk about?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yes, well, his mission was to see what's going on here, what the Soviets are doing here. Collecting information. What Soviets planned for Poland because no one really knew. Will they incorporate it in the Soviet Union? Will it be still independent? In a way, I suppose at this.

[Charlie Higson]

Point in his life, he was having to hide who he was and what he was doing as much as possible from the new regime. Presumably just trying not to get caught.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Officially in the city, he was still someone else. He was using different identities.

[Charlie Higson]

How was that for the family? How were they able to cope with that?

[Unknown Advertiser]

My grandma told me about it. She was like schooled at home to be or trained at home not to be too emotional. Yes. And when he's there, she's just like some distant relative coming over and say, hello, mister, good to see you. Like finally you see your father after a long time and you are not supposed to hug him. Why? It is confusing for sure.

[Charlie Higson]

As a father of three boys, trying to imagine what that must have been like. That must have been very difficult, very painful.

[Unknown Advertiser]

It's really hard to really comprehend what's going on. And then when they are not seen by anyone, they can finally talk to their father, hug him and so on. So.

[Charlie Higson]

And Witold essentially chose country over family. And we talked before about these sort of three different sides of him that sort of compartmentalizing things that he can appear to be a completely ordinary family man, which he was. And even though he's surrounded by so much danger, he can somehow keep that to one side and been able to connect with his family when he's with them.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yes, I think he was trying to balance it in a way. In most cases. I know no spy master, but that's probably what people do. Either they do not have any family or they have to. This is my work and this is my home and family. And it became with the years harder and harder. This is actually the thing that his wife, so my grand grandmother wrote in the letter to the Communist president asking him for parole that Witold loved his country and this Love overshadowed every other love for the family and so on, just to convince them that he was trying to work for his country. And I think it was that it wasn't like just simple crossroads where we have to choose family or country. It was many roads leading there. Yes.

[Charlie Higson]

In 1947, Witold was captured by the Communist Polish forces, who accused him of spying for the exiled Polish government and also of plotting the assassination of communist officials. That is untrue. And he was interrogated and tortured multiple times, presumably to try and get a false confession out of him. And he was found guilty in that show trial. And what happened next? What was the family told about all this?

[Unknown Advertiser]

No, no information at all. So my great grandmother or her sister, sometimes they just brought these parcels, food parcels or some basic package with something for the prisoners. And one day in 48, this little window opened and they said, pilecki. No, he's not here. He has left. Yeah, and it's closed. And then you know nothing about what happened to him. He left. What does it mean? He went somewhere or is he alive? No one knows. And this situation went on for many, many years. Really. I'm kind of astonished that not that much happened to us as a family, for example, because in the Soviet Union, if you got caught, the whole family would be killed or just exported to Siberia. My grandma, when she was in the school, and the Communists, they put these speakers in school, so the most important information and propaganda was fed there during the break, for example, break time, and the speaker was saying, yes, the imperialist spy Witold Pilecki was caught, and he's on the trial and so on. And her teacher, so my grandma's teacher said to her, oh, Pilecki, do you know him? She was very proud to say, yes, he's my father and I am very proud of him. And then she was made fun of and a traitor, enemy of the state and so on. So in general, it was really hard time for the family, especially that Maria. So my great grandmother, she couldn't find any job. She was a teacher, but she wouldn't be employed because all the schools were afraid that if you employ someone like that, Secret service will come and make troubles. So she was really doing these very simple jobs. And then when someone found out that, oh, she's Pilecka, okay, let's get rid of her. And later on she went to one of those orphanages because there were so many children after the war who had no parents. And so there were these orphanages called Ognisko in this Ognisko place. So this orphanage she could get a position which was similar to being a teacher. So maybe that's what she concentrated on. But in general, these few years were really something hard to move on with two little children. My grandma remembers picking up pine cones to burn them in the fireplace because it was in the winter, it's getting really cold. And if not for the family and some nice neighbors, who would give them a bucket of coal? I don't know if they would survive at all.

[Charlie Higson]

It's incredibly difficult being a single mother and labeled the wife of a traitor, an enemy of the state.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yes. And people were buying into propaganda because it was kind of forced. You could think, yeah, maybe it's not true, but you couldn't. So in general, the society was just under this Soviet boot, and everyone could just tell the authorities that you said something or you're hiding something. And yeah, it was like psychosis in a way.

[Charlie Higson]

So in terms of what the family is told, the guy at the gates to the prison saying he's not there is about it. That's about the only official information they get. Is there anything in the newspapers or anything like that?

[Unknown Advertiser]

No. The trial was many times mentioned in the newspapers on the first page, because it was this propaganda to show people, yeah, we catch the imperialist Western spies over here. But then when the trial ended, we didn't know at all what was going on.

[Charlie Higson]

It wasn't until 1990 that the family found out the truth. What happened then? How did that come about?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, so for many years my grand grandmother Lut has that. Maybe he's somewhere in Siberia, maybe he'll come back from some prison somewhere in Soviet Union. But it never happened. My grandmother never remarried. Her whole life she was waiting for him. I think it started in Poland, then the Berlin Wall fell down, and finally Solidarity and so on. All these things happening. And 1990, the communist regime fell apart. And then the archives are being opened and they found the documents from the Pilecki case from 1947. It wasn't complete, so some of the documents were missing. But for example, there was the report, there was the death cert. So finally we got to know that, yes, he was killed in 1948, but we didn't know about it. Yes, as a family, they never told us. And I remember Andrzej, so my uncle telling me that he was really nervous to show this to his mother. Yes, because the whole life she was like waiting for him. And here is a paper saying he's long dead.

[Charlie Higson]

And how did they react to that? Maria and Geoffe? And how did their Life change after that.

[Unknown Advertiser]

I think it was some kind of closure for Maria. At least she could tell herself that she shouldn't be waiting anymore. So it's more like moving on in a way, and just remembering the good things about him and their life. Sofia couldn't tell anyone about her father for so long time. So when she finally could, then she was very energetic and I think the new beginning of fighting for this memory of her father, because we knew what he did, but it was really maybe, I don't know, five historians knew it and then the family. So it was like her life mission to bring him back to the common memory.

[Charlie Higson]

So she was central in getting his story better known.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Known at all, I think so. Also obviously her brother. But Zofia, yes, was very focused on it. And most of her activities were just pointed to bring back this memory and tell people about it.

[Charlie Higson]

And so what happened to your great grandfather's remains? Were they ever found?

[Unknown Advertiser]

So we don't know what happened to them. They were never found. It was, I think, three times they said, yeah, we're pretty sure it's him. But they never really found them. Some people, like calling my grandpa, for example, congratulating her that, yeah, finally he's been found. And she's like, where, when, how? And then it seems that only the pressure wrote some article about it that probably he's found and everyone understood, yeah, finally he's there. So they were digging up the few cemeteries to find him, because the general practice was just burying them during the night on the outskirts of the cemetery. The people that they killed in those prisons, and they were DNA testing, but never found him. There is one idea that maybe he was simply burned in one of the big furnaces. And we don't know really.

[Charlie Higson]

You were talking about how your grandmother Zofia fought to get Witold's story out there. When did it really start entering the public consciousness?

[Unknown Advertiser]

I think it began in the like 2001 or 2002, but it was very small steps. And around 2006 or 7, it finally blew up, I would say. So suddenly Witold was here and there. And the idea of putting some monument. Nowadays there is a Pilecki Institute, for example, in Warsaw, many books about him and so on. So he's quite well known in Poland, in the rest of the world, maybe not that much, but so it's very recent.

[Charlie Higson]

It took a long time. Is there a feeling now that Witold is being used by the current powers in Poland for their own ends?

[Unknown Advertiser]

So let's, you know, it's like Political situations a little bit complicated. But let's call those guys the right side, right wingers. Yeah. So they're very nationalistic and they. I have to simplify it because it's more complicated. But generally they try to show Witl Pilecki as an example of the ordinary Pole during the war, putting him on the monument and saying, yeah, look, this is how every Pole was behaving, which we do not really have any control over it. So no one really asked the family. When you put someone like that who is dead for 70 years and you try to put him in a political context, I do not like it. That's my problem. For many people who are not that into history, they might think of him like a crazy right winger nowadays because he was. He was very patriotic to the level, which you might call a bit nationalistic. But this is not this nationalism which says kill other nations and so on. Yeah. It's just my nation is very important for me and I'm trying to do everything I can do to it to grow to be good and so on. In times of short films and tiktoks, it's all getting mixed together. And really the story of Witol Pilecki is quite a clear one, I would say. So sometimes they try to mud the water a little bit around here. Him also, these right wingers, they helped to bring back this memory. So let's call them the left wing. They didn't care at all. So from family point of view, we owe them a little bit because they helped us to show this person. But then when they talk about history, it's totally fine. I do not care who says, as long as he says truth, it's fine.

[Charlie Higson]

Particularly coming out of a period where Poland hadn't been its own country.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, exactly.

[Charlie Higson]

It's very different to be a nationalist under those conditions than, as you say, some of the sort of more poisonous nationalism.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Exactly. And I don't think Witold's nationalism patriotic thing was poisonous. Yeah, it was very concerned on the country, on the nation.

[Charlie Higson]

So what do you think Vitol would make of all this? The fact that there are statues to him everywhere and an institute and that he's being used by various different people for their own ends.

[Unknown Advertiser]

I do not think he would like it. I also think he was not very political. He was more into putting people together for them to join against someone or for something. He also wrote many times that he didn't care about all this, a medal of honor or some other official things. He just was trying to do something for the common good. I like especially one monument of him in Warsaw, because it's like a cubicle showing him going out of the cube, and then on one of the walls, you can see silhouettes of people who walk behind him or just next to him. And for me, it symbolizes that he never did everything by himself. There were many people cooperating to do something, and I think it's true. He was connecting people, doing something together.

[Charlie Higson]

And so for you personally, Christophe, what is Witold's legacy?

[Unknown Advertiser]

I think we all, wherever we come from, we can learn from his life what he did. But his legacy, as a general thing, I think it's that if you really want something to happen, you have to work hard to do it. And in most cases, it's possible. The second thing this legacy would be being truthful. It was very important for Wittel for the truth to be told. And that's also the story of his life after his death. The truth is triumphing because after so many years, finally, he's there as a kind of a hero. And I think the love is the first big thing. He had to choose between love to his country, to his nation and his family. But I am really sure he loved very much his family, his wife and his children. You can see it in their eyes when you talk to them about him. They're like, yes, he was our hero from the beginning.

[Charlie Higson]

Do you have anything physically in common with him?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Not much. But, yeah, there are some people who tell me that I look alike. One of these older ladies, she approached me on one of these history meetings, and he said, yeah, you look exactly like him. Exactly. And I say, yes, thank you very much. It's really nice to hear. But I've seen myself in the mirror. I look a little bit different, so bigger nose, bigger mouth. And she's like, yes, yes, you're right. But your receding hairline is exactly the same. So, yeah, thank you for that. But in General, no, I'm Mr. Nobody on the street.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, I mean, I guess partly. Also what you were talking about before is that he came across as a very ordinary, normal guy. And, you know, that's what he looked like. And on some levels, for his family, I guess that's what he was. Well, thank you for joining us today and sharing that and letting us all know a little bit more about him. Cause, you know, he obviously was an extraordinary man and did some amazing things.

[Unknown Advertiser]

My pleasure. Thank you for having me once again, and my privilege to talk to you.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, that was really interesting, talking to Christoph and having that family connection. Christoph is talking about his great grandfather. I don't even know who my great grandfathers were, but he has no way of avoiding that. So it was really interesting to talk to Christoph about that legacy and how he copes with that and how he is very uneasy about how now that Witold is better known and is a big hero in Poland, he is being used by other people for their own ends and those stories are now out of the family's control. I know in later life that Witold was heavily traumatized by what had happened to him, but he had managed quite a long time to do that. That classic spy thing of dividing his life into two parts, still being a family man but secretly doing this other stuff, even though he must have known that he was putting his own family in danger. Thank you for listening and do join us for our next episode of the Spy who.

[Unknown Announcer]

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[Charlie Higson]

From Wondery. This is the final episode in our series, the Spy who Infiltrated Auschwitz. This episode of the Spy who is hosted by me, Charlie Higson. Our show is produced by Vespucci for Wondery with story consultancy by Yellow Ant. The producers of this episode are Ashley Clivery and Philippa Gearing. Our senior producer is Rachel Byrne. Our sound designer is Iver Manley. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frisson Sync. Executive producers for Vespucci are Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turkan. The executive producer for Yellow Ant is Tristan Donovan. Our senior producer for Wondery is Theodora Leludis and our senior managing producer for Wondery is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Lewy.