C (4:08)

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A (5:11)

From Audible Originals. I'm indiravama and this is the spy who beneath the veneer of the everyday lurks the realm of the spy. It's a dank, murky world full of dark corners, sinister motives and corrupted morals. A place of paranoia and infiltration, sabotage and manipulation. In this season we access the file on Larry Wu Tai Chin, one of the longest serving and successful Chinese spies in history that we know of. He penetrated America's intelligence services and remained undetected for decades. And when he stole President Nixon's secret game plan for Mao Zedong, he would help his communist masters reshape the world's geopolitical order. For ease was we're going to use the name Qin used in the US throughout his time there, rather than his original name, Jin Wudai. We're also going to refer to Beijing by its current name rather than its name at the time of these events. Peking. What you're about to hear are dramatized reconstructions of events based on the information that's been made public. But remember, in the shadow realm of the spy, the full story is rarely clear. You're listening to the spy who outplayed Nixon. This. This is Episode one Forked Tongue. 1948 Yenching University, Beijing, China Wu Tai Chin pours two cups of hot green tea from a heavy stoneware teapot and then lights a cigarette. Lounging on his bed in his student quarters nearby, his roommate Wang reads a newspaper. It is dominated by the stories of the civil war raging across China. It looks as if the Communists will soon control all of Manchuria. Wang puts the paper down, his eyes shining with excitement. This is a great moment in China's history. Qin and Wang have spent many an evening discussing how much better China would be under communism instead of the current Nationalist government. But the excitement Chin felt when the war was hundreds of miles away is ebbing fast now that the conflict is closing in on Beijing. What do you think will become of us if they take Beijing? My family served the Imperial Dynasty, and I don't suppose my degree will be worth much to the Communists. Qin's father worked as a mandarin bureaucrat in the final years of the Qing Dynasty, and Chin hopes to follow in his footsteps by joining China's civil services. It's why he's studying journalism and economics at a private university known for the high standard of English it demands from but since China's last emperor was deposed more than 30 years ago, the country has been ravaged by war. First civil war broke out, then Japan invaded. Now the Japanese are gone and the civil war between the hardline Nationalists and the Soviet backed Communists has resumed with added brutality. Wang lights a cigarette and smiles enigmatically. Change is disruption, but also opportunity. We need everybody to contribute for communism to take hold for all our benefit. I want to contribute, but doing what? Wang sucks on his cigarette and looks at Qin through the swirling smoke. You will play a most valuable role in the new China. I will? You are very good at English. You are by far the most fluent speaker and writer here. Oh, that. That is a most valuable skill. The world will not learn to speak Chinese, but we will need to speak and walk with our enemies. Chin isn't sure he understands. His roommate often speaks in cryptic phrases. Wang pours them both another cup of tea. I will introduce you to a friend. He may offer you important work. Chin feels suddenly breathless. He now wonders if his roommate's interest in Communism was always more than just students. Further, A few weeks later, Beijing Qin follows Wang through the streets. They walk past government soldiers beating a couple and ransacking their house. The Nationalist government has introduced harsh new laws against hoarding. Wang takes a brief, angry glance at the altercation. Have you noticed how those loyal to the Kuomintang are never raided? Chin tries to conceal his fear from Wang. The Nationalists and the Communists show no mercy to those who do not support them. And Qin is about to meet a possible official of the Communist Party in a city being reinforced by hundreds of Nationalist soldiers every day. Wang leads them into a bustling hutong, an alley lined with traditional gray brick cord courtyards and houses. He ushers Chin through a red wooden door. Inside the Hua Tong house, Chin lets his eyes adjust to the gloomy interior. He sees a man dressed in a dark gray military tunic. I am pleased to meet you, Mr. Qin. Wang smiles reassuringly, then heads for the door. I'll leave you both to talk. Qin is horrified to be alone with a man he strongly suspects to be part of the Communist security service. The officer motions him to sit and asks him about his studies, his family and his activities during the war with Japan. Chin worries. Each truthful answer risks death. But then, so would withholding information that this man may already know. Finally, the security officer smiles. So Wang tells me you are looking for work, Mr. Qin. Yes. I want to be useful. And I believe you can be. My job is to monitor American officials. We need to understand how the rest of the world will respond to a Chinese Communist government. I could use another set of eyes and ears. Qin hesitates. He seems to have passed the test. But now he knows for certain he is being recruited as a Communist spy, a profession that would get him a bullet in the back of the head if any Nationalist found out. But it's already too late. If he refuses, he might be marked as suspicious by the Communists. And right now it looks like the Communists will win this war. He takes a small gulp of air and makes his bet. I would be honoured to help. What is it you want me to do? I want you to move to Shanghai and offer yourself as a translator to the American consulate there. And if I get the job? Make yourself useful to them. But stay alert. If you see or hear anything that you think might interest me, then tell me when we next meet. And when will that be? I will find you when I am next in Shanghai. A few days later. Shanghai. Chin feels a spurt of adrenaline as he is nearly run over by a car which honks loudly at him. He takes out a handkerchief and wipes the sweat from his brow and palms. Shanghai is not just hotter than Beijing. It feels like a different country where Beijing has tree lined streets and peaceful gardens. Shanghai is noisy, chaotic and foreign. Many of the buildings look European. The cinemas play British films and tea shops serve coffee and cake. Qin feels disoriented and anxious. He wonders if it's nerves about his mission or the city transmitting its panic to him. Do you have any work? Any food? No. Oh, I'm sorry. The streets heave with refugees fleeing the civil war. Whole families beg on the streets with desperate eyes and clutching fingers. Chin spots the tall Art Deco skyscraper of the US Consulate with relief. But inside it is even more chaotic. Chin has to force his way in through a frantic crowd demanding US visas. A harried looking American official is trying to make himself heard above the crowd. If you have family in the United States of America, you need to join this queue. If you do not have any family in America, you need to go to the counter on the far side. Qin pushes through the crowd towards the besieged official who is trying to understand a well dressed Chinese man firing rapid Mandarin at him. The official scowls as Qin arrives at his side. Sir, sir, there's a queue. I don't want a visa. I want work as a translator. The official's face turns hopeful. You speak English? Thank God. Can you please ask this couple if they have family in the United States? Qin obediently does so and listens to the outpouring of relief as the husband clutches his arm. In desperation, Qin turns back to the consulate official. Yes, he has a nephew called Ching Liu who lives on Mott street in New York City. They are able to stay with him. The consulate official grins broadly and begins filling out the paperwork. After issuing the visa, he turns to Qin with a smile. You are a real lifesaver, mister. My name is Chin Wu Tai Chin, but you can call me Larry. The official grins with relief and holds out his hand. Well Larry, you have just got yourself a job. Starting today. Six months later April 1949 Shanghai. Qin backs up against a wall as Nationalist soldiers and tanks move past him. Since getting his job with the US Consulate, Mao Zedong's Communist army has taken both Beijing and Nanjing. Now they're preparing to attack Shanghai, the last stronghold of the Nationalists and the economic heart of China. Westerners and Nationalist officials climb into taxis and rickshaws surrounded by piles of luggage, all heading to the docks and the ships waiting to evacuate them. Those unable to leave the city roam the streets in huge, frightened crowds, getting in the way of soldiers attempting to prepare for battle. Chin pushes through the crush until he reaches an area known for prostitution, gambling and opium smuggling. He's surprised his Communist spymaster wants to meet here, even this early in the morning. It has a seedy, ominous atmosphere. Finally, he reaches a tea house where some rickshaw drivers are laughing into arguing over a few mahjong tables up at the front. Chin spymaster is there waiting. He greets Chin like an old friend and leads him to a table at the back. After they order, the Communist spymaster nods towards the noisy mahjong game. Look. Wasting the little they earn on gambling. Chin nods hesitantly. There are many gambling dens in this area, I believe, run by foreigners and organized crime. But not for much longer. Chin shivers slightly. He wonders if his spymaster has an ulterior motive for meeting here. He decides not to mention that since moving to Shanghai, he's become fond of playing mahjong himself. He's relieved when his handler changes the subject. How is the job going? Good. I've been asked to go to Hong Kong. With the Americans? Yes. If the Communists take Shanghai, they will move the consulate to Hong Kong. The peninsulas and islands of Hong Kong. United States used to be part of China, but now it's under British control. His spymaster looks thoughtful. Interesting. They do not intend to recognize us as a legitimate government. How do you feel about going with them to Hong Kong? I am happy to go if it is of use to you. The Communist security officer pours them both a second cup of tea. And your new wife? Qin is startled. His courtship and swift pal marriage to a Chinese nurse working with the US army is more recent than his last meeting with his spymaster. She is also happy to move to Hong Kong. Good. You should go. You are doing well. The fact that they have asked you means they trust you. Won't it be harder for us to meet in Hong Kong? We will meet no more than once a year. It is more important to build their trust in you. Remember, to help China, you must do your best for your American bosses. As Mao teaches, revolution is above all, possessed of enormous patience. Two years later July 1951 Busan, South Korea Larry Chin walks through a small city of dusty canvas tents surrounded by barbed wire. Thousands of men watch him without hope or purpose. After the Communists took Shanghai, they declared victory over all of China, but were almost immediately drawn into another war in neighboring Korea. Backed by the Soviet Union, Communist North Korea attacked South Korea. The US backed by the United nations, went to South Korea's aid. China, fearing an American invasion, sent in troops to help North Korea. Now Chin has been brought in from Hong Kong to help the U.S. army interrogate the Chinese soldiers it has captured. Guiding Chin through the prisoner of war camp is a US Sergeant who works in military intelligence. I can't tell you how glad I am to see you here, Mr. Qin. We're struggling with a real shortage of translators. I'm not security cleared. I'm afraid there wasn't time before leaving Hong Kong. We don't have time for that rigmarole. There's 135,000 prisoners in this camp alone, and we need to interrogate every one of them. Qin is nervous. He never expected to find himself a spy in a wartime enemy camp. There was no time to alert his spymasters before he left, and he's unsure of how best to help China in this situation. The sergeant leads Chin into a makeshift wooden hut. Inside, a Chinese prisoner with a broad nose and thick cropped hair waits anxiously at a simple wooden table. The sergeant sits opposite the prisoner, with Chin next to him, and opens a thick manila folder. Ask him to confirm his name is Tai Chuen Ji. As Qin translates, he realizes the sergeant is double checking the prisoner's answers against the notes from earlier interrogations. Ask him if he's a Communist. The prisoner shakes his head vehemently as Qin translates. He says he was a Nationalist soldier in the civil war. He feared reprisals when the Communists took power, so he joined the army. He did not know he would be sent to war against America. Does he want to be repatriated to the People's Republic of China? No, he doesn't. He wants to go to America or Taiwan. Tell him it's not that easy. We can't take everyone who wants to live in America. But there is a way it could be guaranteed. The sergeant, through Qin, asks Tai if he would be willing to return to China and spy for America. Since the Communists took power, China has become a blind spot for US Intelligence. Qin translates the prisoner's response. He doesn't want to do that. If he is caught spying, he would be killed. Tell him he only needs to last a year. If he does that, he'll get his ticket to America. Jin watches Tai wrestle with the decision before agreeing. How?

B (21:22)

What's all.

A (21:24)

He will do it. Good man. The sergeant consults his dossier again. Larry, can I check? What does this word here mean? The sergeant shows the notes to Chin, who takes his time so he can read the Rest of the details on the page. He quickly memorizes the prisoner's age, height, birthplace, and the location of his family in China. It is a Manchurian slang word. It means outcast. Ah, that makes sense. Thank you. Jin makes no further move to look at the dossier. His spymaster's taught him never to do anything that might look suspicious. Instead, he tries to commit Tai's broad nose and thick hair to memory so he can describe it later in detail. He doesn't need instructions to know his spirit. Master will want to know everything possible about this man. Ten years later, 1961 Hong Kong O Qi Ming checks his watch. He is a short man in his 40s, wearing a suit. He looks like any other Hong Kong businessman in the thriving city state. In fact, O works for Chinese intelligence, and he's waiting for his agent, Larry Wutai. Chin. Chin is late, but oh is not concerned. Chin has proved himself a valuable spy. His work to unmask dozens of traitors and American agents during the Korean War earned him respect and plaudits. Oh knows their subsequent executions helped keep China safe. Chin's also won the trust of his American bosses. So much so that they've posted him to a US airbase in Japan, where he now helps the CIA monitor Chinese media. This all reflects well on oh too. Unfortunately, Chin has divorced his wife and is now having an affair with a married Chinese woman who works at the air base in Japan with him. And oh is anxious to see how this is affecting his super spy. Jin enters the restaurant. Restaurant? He's no longer a thin and nervous student, but a man who carries his tall frame with quiet assurance. He slides into the booth opposite O. It is good to see you, Larry. And you, Mr. O. I have exciting news. I have been offered a new job in the United States. O is elated. A spy based in the US who is trusted by its intelligence services is a major coup. The this is amazing. They must be very pleased with you. Well done. Chin looks pleased at oh's compliments. OH knows Chin's ego thrives on being a secret hero for China. But he must also address the problem of Chin's affair later. As he spoons noodle broth into his bowl, oh casually begins to probe. Have you told Kathy the news? Kathy is the married woman he is having an affair with in Japan. Chin looks unfazed. Yes, she is delighted. I have told her she should get a divorce too, and then she can join me in the United States. Oh is both shocked and troubled. But he is careful not to show any Condemnation or judgment? And what about your children? While they are small, they are better off with their mother. When I am more established, I will bring them to America. It will be good for their future prospects. They will not mind leaving their mother there then. Oh is worried by Chin's casual attitude to family life and his eagerness about moving to America. He wonders if living and working among Westerners for so long is corrupting Chin. That would indeed be useful. But remember, you are going to America for China. Of course. My duty to China is always at the forefront of everything I do. I assure you, Mr. Oh. Oh nods and respect returns to his noodles. But despite Qin's assurances, he's worried. If his star spy succumbs to the decadence of Western capitalism, then oh, as his spymaster, will be held responsible. In Communist China, the line between hero and executed traitor can be thin. Late 1961 Communist Party headquarters, Beijing oh admires the ornate carvings on the dark wooden pillars around him. He is in a meeting room that was part of the former Imperial Garden complex. It now houses the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party. Oh bows as Zhou Enlai enters. Zhou is one of the most powerful men within the party and oversees China's foreign affairs. And after learning that China was about to get a spy inside the US he summoned O to learn more. So your agent's role has not changed, but he has moved to an office in the United States, Is that right? Yes. He will still be translating mostly public information, but he will have more to do with CIA headquarters. And his transfer to America proves he is trusted and valued. Oh does not mention his concerns about Qin taking his married lover to the US it might reflect badly on oh. This is very good news, but we need to use him carefully. The risk of discovery will be much higher in America. O has the highest respect for Zhou. A former spymaster himself, Zhou is known to be the calm hand on the reins of the Communist government. To reduce the risk, perhaps he should be a sleeper agent, only activated if we go to war with the United States or at moments of extreme crisis. No. We need as much information as possible on American thinking and intentions. Now they are sending troops to Vietnam. Chiang Kai Shek is still asking them to invade China and restore his Nationalist government. Until we have nuclear capability, we are at risk. This agent must be operational immediately. OH bows in deference to Joe's decision. I will set up a network of couriers to transmit his intelligence. Good. Keep me informed of his progress and send all intelligence directly to me. Ensure he takes no risks. He becomes more valuable the longer he is there. Oh stands and bows again before leaving. He just hopes Chin will stay true to his communities masters. Two years later June 1963 Santa Rosa, Northern California. In a small weatherboard cottage with a large garden and picket fence, Chin shows his girlfriend Kathy around. Her suitcases are still in the hallway from when she arrived 10 minutes ago. Look, a fridge and freezer. Oh my goodness. And we don't have to share it. No, it's just for us. Kathy is round eyed as he shows her the television and pantry full of food. Chin has been living in California for the past two years. While his lover secured a divorce from her husband in Japan. He immediately paid for Kathy to join him in Santa Rosa. He watches her fondly as she stares out of the kitchen window at their neighbors. The garden is so big and everyone has a car. Chin is proud he can give Kathy such luxury. He grabs her by the shoulders and whirls her to face him. Let's get married tomorrow. Tomorrow? It's impossible. No, it's not. There's a place in the next state called Reno. They do quick and cheap weddings. You'll love it. It's filled with casinos and movie stars. Marilyn Monroe was there only last year making a film. Really? Kathy loves the movies and American culture. Chin's eager to share his new life with someone who appreciates it. Communist China, with its famines and oppressive sense of danger, feels very far away. Four years later Mid 1967 Beijing, China the Ministry of Public Security at the sound of young voices shouting Qin spymaster oh Chi Ming rushes to the window near his desk. In the streets below, hundreds of young people with red armbands are running towards their offices. They are the feared Red Guards. He and his colleagues rush to escape, but it is too late. The door is slammed open by a teenager and Red Guards swarm around them threateningly. Everyone here is guilty of fraternizing with foreigners and conspiring against Chairman Mao. The Red Guard are young people who have been encouraged by Mao to rid China of its old ideas and traditions in what's being called the Cultural Revolution. They have become an uncontrollable mob, denouncing, beating, torturing and humiliating anyone they decide is against the Revolution. And today this includes the Ministry of Public Security's intelligence Service. Oh's boss tries to remonstrate with them. On what grounds do you claim this? We don't need evidence, old man. Evidence is a tool of counter revolutionaries. Seize them. Oh's boss is viciously beaten. Oh decides not to resist as they Tie his hands behind his back. Resistance is futile. He knows a powerful group of people led by the wife of Chairman Mao Zedong encourage and protect the Red Guards from any consequences. And those people are using the mayhem to grab power over moderates such as Zhou Enlai. Any department he has influence over is being targeted. Oh frets over what will happen to his agents now. Will anyone replace us? They must read the files. Shut up. Oh is smacked across the face with a baton. That is not your concern. You will be re educated. A dunce's cap is put on oh's head and he is dragged out of the building as Red Guards kick and spit at him. Oh wonders if he will survive re education forced labor deep in rural China with little food and even less protection against the elements. He also wonders if China is about to lose its most valuable asset inside the US if nobody keeps in contact with Qin, will he take the opportunity to defect to the Americans? January 1968 Santa Rosa, California in the offices of the Foreign Broadcast Information Service, Chin and his colleagues gather in a large meeting room. The FBIS is a division of the CIA, which locates and translates publicly available information as requested by intelligence analysts and officers, and Chin's been working here ever since he moved to America. It's not a high security department, but but Qin has learned a surprising amount simply by noting all requests for information. He's also worked hard to become the FBIs's top Chinese translator, someone who is consulted by other translators for his proficiency. And the trust in him is further underpinned by his decision to become a U.S. citizen. But today he is worried. The head of the Santa Rosa office, Stan, clears his throat and confirms the rumors that have been swirling around the office for months. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm afraid the Santa Rosa office is to be wound down over the next two years, and you are all at risk of redundancy. Some of you may be allocated roles in other offices or departments, but Chin feels shell shocked. In just a few years, his charmed life has come crashing down around him. Later that night at his suburban home, Chin seals up the envelope on his letter to Mr. Oh. The letter uses seemingly innocent language to ask for instructions. He carefully writes the Hong Kong address on the front and leaves it on his desk. Chin will post the letter in the morning, but he doesn't hold much hope of a reply. He hasn't heard from Mr. Oh or anyone else from Chinese Intelligence for months. He heads to bed, but sleep is unlikely. He's lost contact with his spymaster and is about to lose the job that made him so valuable to China. That's two incomes disappearing at the worst time. All his children are now living with him, hoping to train as doctors in the U.S. chin wonders how he will afford it. January 1970 FBIs headquarters Rosslyn, Virginia In a meeting room, senior managers from the FBIs and the CIA's China desk are going through the personnel files of employees from the soon to close Santa Rosa office. Chin's file is open in front of them, and his current boss is arguing the case for holding onto him. Larry's without doubt our top Chinese translator and a linguist. I think he would be a real asset at headquarters. But anyone working in fbis headquarters requires top secret security clearance. The translators there work closely with CIA officers on active operations. The most senior CIA officer in the room grimaces. We know nothing about his background in China. There's no mention of whether he supported the Communists or the Nationalists during the Civil War. Really? He's been working with us since 1948. If he was a spy, I think we would have discovered it by now. He has never given us any reason to doubt his integrity. The CIA officer raises an eyebrow. Oh, what about his womanizing? Our inquiries suggest he's cheated on his new wife several times. Chin's boss looks uncomfortable. I meant professional integrity. The CIA officer sighs. Chin is exactly the kind of personnel decision that worries him. There are a few red flags, but not enough to make it an easy decision. One of his junior CIA colleagues on the China desk leafs through Chin's file. I know Larry's work. He's good, easy to read reports, and very good on the cultural nuances. We could do with that. At the moment. The senior CIA officer knows he's right. The war in Vietnam is not going well because the Chinese are secretly helping the North Vietnamese. Anticipating China's next move has become a high priority within the CIA. Fine. Let's do as many background checks as we can in Hong Kong and Japan, as well as here. Oh, and he'll need to do a polygraph test. Doesn't look like he's taken one yet. A few weeks later, the White House Washington, D.C. president Richard Nixon and his National Security Advisor, Henry Kissinger, are alone in the presidential office. They've asked not to be disturbed as they study a top secret memorandum sent to Kissinger by a former U.S. diplomat. Nixon reads it with excitement. So this guy is the Dutch envoy to Communist China? Yes, and he appears to be trusted by Zhou Enlai to send such a message. I think this is highly significant, Mr. President. Nixon is thrilled. Last year, Soviet troops attacked China over a disputed border, making it clear the two Communist allies are now enemies. So Nixon's taking advantage of the falling out between the two Communist powers to extend the hand of friendship to China. His aim is to recruit China as an ally against the Soviets. Kissinger has spent months trying various ways to secretly reach out to the Chinese, but all his attempts went ignored until yesterday. Now Joe seems to have agreed to a secret meeting with Kissinger. But Kissinger knows it's only the first step. We still need to be careful, sir. This could be Joe and Lai testing the water, but he might also be setting a trap to humiliate us. Nixon knows it would be a publicity nightmare if his secret attempts to establish diplomatic relations with Communist China were leaked to the press. He is, after all, a famous hardliner on communism. But Nixon is willing to take that risk. Sometimes, Henry, you gotta go with your gut. I think they want us as an ally against the Soviets just as much as we want them. But getting a win against Soviet Russia is not all Nixon hopes to gain from China. He's realized his only hope of an honorable exit from the messy and unpopular war in Vietnam is a negotiation with the Chinese. Nixon picks up a photo of Zhou Enlai and tries to imagine himself in the Chinese Premier's shoes and this Dutch diplomat. He says Joe has got rid of his enemies and is back in control. Do we have that from any other sources? Kissinger purses his lips. Our intelligence is patchy and nowhere good enough. We know Joe has withdrawn his opposition to the Cultural Revolution, so is no longer being targeted. But I'm not sure we can depend on him having Mal's support in this. Nixon likes the look of Joe. Thick black eyebrows above intelligent eyes and the patient face of someone who knows how to bide his time. Do we know why Joe might be interested in talking? Kissinger hesitates, pushing his thick rimmed glasses back up his nose before replying. Taiwan. Nixon grimaces. Officially, the US still recognizes the Nationalist government that fled to Taiwan as the rightful leaders of China. It promised the island protection against any Communist invasion. It's also why Taiwan still occupies China's seat on the United Nations Security Council. Nixon gets up from his chair and stands looking out of the huge bay window behind. There are plenty within his own party who would never forgive him for sacrificing Taiwan for an easy exit from Vietnam. He turns to Kissinger. Well, let's cross that bridge when we come to it. For the time being, let's set up some meetings and see how it goes. Kissinger nods and leaves. Nixon return returns to the window. Doubts chase around his mind, but also possibilities. This could be the defining moment of his administration. Perhaps he could find a practical solution to the war of ideologies that have defined the last 50 years of global history. If he can tempt the Chinese with trade, they might be willing to forget about Taiwan. But one misstep and it could all unravel. He just needs to hold his nerve and negotiate skillfully. And for that to happen, he must keep China guessing about what he's willing to give up to get a deal. You have been listening to the Spy who An Audible original A quick note about our dialogue. We can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly far back in history, but our scenes are written using the best available sources. So even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it's still based on biographical research. We used many sources in our research for this season, including the Spy within by Tod Hoffman, the Hijacked War by David Cheng Chang, and My husband Jin Wudai's Death by Cathy Chin. The Spy who is hosted by me, Indra Varma. Additional voice acting by Winson Leong. The producer was Vespucci with writing and story editing by Yellowant. For Yellowant, the writer was Judy Cooper. Research by Louise Byrne with thanks to Monte Cooper Cooper and Gigi Corr. The managing producer was Jay Priest. For Vespucci, the senior producer was Holly Aquilina. The sound designer was Alex Port Felix Natalia Rodriguez is the supervising Producer. Music supervision by Scott Velasquez for Frisson Sync For Vespucci, the executive producers were Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turkan. For Yellowant, the executive producer was True Tristan Donovan. For Audible, the executive producers were Estelle Doyle and Theodora Leludis. Follow the Spy who on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of the Spy who ad free by joining Audible.