The Spy Who Outran the KGB | Before Gordievsky, and the Secret War Inside Britain
Podcast: The Spy Who
Host: Charlie Higson
Guest: Tim Tate (Author, Journalist, Filmmaker)
Release Date: December 16, 2025
Episode: 4
Main Theme Overview
This episode serves as a deep-dive into the world of Cold War espionage between the UK and the Soviet Union before and during the era of Oleg Gordievsky—a top KGB officer who secretly spied for Britain. Host Charlie Higson interviews investigative journalist and author Tim Tate to explore how Soviet infiltration compromised British institutions, the chilling scope of the KGB's network, and the resulting paranoia and dysfunction inside British intelligence. The episode details both explicit betrayals and broader failures, from the Cambridge spy rings to institutional cover-ups and the problems that continue to haunt intelligence communities.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Origins of Soviet Espionage in Britain
[03:32 – 06:43]
- Why Britain?
- The Soviet Union feared Western efforts to undermine the Communist revolution, prompting broad and early espionage campaigns.
- U.K.’s declining global power and post-WWII economic exhaustion made it especially vulnerable:
"You have a declining power which has ambitions and pretensions above its pocketbook... we were wide open and vulnerable." — Tim Tate [05:04]
- Britain as NATO’s Backdoor:
- The UK, as a founding member, became a prime vulnerability for Soviet infiltration into broader Western alliances like NATO and the UN.
2. The Scale and Impact of Soviet Penetration
[06:43 – 16:11]
- Recruitment Tactics:
- The Soviets cultivated British university students in the 1930s (notably Cambridge/Oxford), attracting idealistic young people disillusioned with fascism.
- Sir Anthony Blunt acted as a hub, recruiting the so-called "Cambridge Five" and hundreds more.
- Extent of Penetration:
- Peter Wright, MI5 senior officer, identified 35 high-ranking Soviet spies embedded in MI5, MI6, British government, civil service, and even the royal household.
"When I left MI5... MI5's files listed 35 eminent persons as Soviet spies. Not one had ever been dealt with." — Tim Tate recounting Wright [10:16]
- Peter Wright, MI5 senior officer, identified 35 high-ranking Soviet spies embedded in MI5, MI6, British government, civil service, and even the royal household.
3. Institutional Failures and Cover-Ups
[16:11 – 20:13]
- Lack of Accountability:
- Most identified moles were quietly retired or shifted to harmless positions; none faced prosecution, and even notorious traitor Anthony Blunt was given immunity.
"Nothing happened to them, nothing at all... It was covered up spectacularly." — Tim Tate [19:16]
- Most identified moles were quietly retired or shifted to harmless positions; none faced prosecution, and even notorious traitor Anthony Blunt was given immunity.
- Government and Intelligence Dysfunction:
- Suspicion was so rife that even MI5’s top leadership (e.g., Roger Hollis) was suspected of being KGB moles—without resolution due to obfuscation and internal rivalry.
"Wright went to his grave yelling... that Roger Hollis was most probably a Soviet spy." — Tim Tate [11:40]
- Suspicion was so rife that even MI5’s top leadership (e.g., Roger Hollis) was suspected of being KGB moles—without resolution due to obfuscation and internal rivalry.
- Turf Wars & Paranoia:
- Hostility between MI5 and MI6 hindered counterintelligence and let spies like Kim Philby operate with impunity.
"There's always been hostility between MI5 and MI6... the damage that caused was enormous." — Tim Tate [22:24]
- Hostility between MI5 and MI6 hindered counterintelligence and let spies like Kim Philby operate with impunity.
4. Notable Names Beyond the Cambridge Five
[14:32 – 15:41]
- Alistair Watson — Held vital defense posts, unnamed in public, but deemed extremely damaging.
- Victor Rothschild & Tess Rothschild — Embedded in MI5, remained under suspicion but protected.
- Covert nature meant these and many other names never entered the public’s awareness.
5. Technical Advances in Espionage
[24:50 – 26:04]
- Peter Wright’s Innovations:
- Groundbreaking surveillance tech (e.g., remotely activating bugs).
- Outpaced US Intelligence:
"Wright developed groundbreaking technical capabilities... the agency, CIA was particularly miffed that we hadn't shared them earlier." — Tim Tate [25:00]
- Widespread Surveillance ("bugged and burgled"):
- British agencies operated with near-impunity, lacking legal constraints due to their unofficial status at the time.
6. The Role and Value of Defectors: Gordievsky, Golianewski, and Others
[20:47 – 30:00]
- Defectors as Game Changers:
- Defectors supplied unique insights—rather than just betraying secrets, Oleg Gordievsky delivered crucial analysis of Kremlin thinking.
"What Gordievsky is doing is providing... analysis, understanding of what the Kremlin was thinking... it's a different type of spying." — Tim Tate [20:54]
- Defectors supplied unique insights—rather than just betraying secrets, Oleg Gordievsky delivered crucial analysis of Kremlin thinking.
- Mikhail Golianewski:
- Polish/KGB colonel who exposed 1,600 Soviet agents, resulting in major spy-ring busts in the UK.
"This man is the most important spy we've ever had. 1600 Soviet agents he exposed. No one has ever done that." — Tim Tate [27:44]
- Polish/KGB colonel who exposed 1,600 Soviet agents, resulting in major spy-ring busts in the UK.
7. The Ongoing “Wilderness of Mirrors”
[32:22 – 33:52]
- Chaos & Uncertainty in Intelligence:
- Both sides engage in deception, making truth elusive even for agencies themselves—interpretation is subjective, facts are withheld from the public.
"What emerges on the desk of the counter intelligence officer is essentially a Rorschach test." — Tim Tate [32:48]
- Both sides engage in deception, making truth elusive even for agencies themselves—interpretation is subjective, facts are withheld from the public.
- Lack of Transparency:
- British intelligence is shielded from freedom of information requests; history remains incomplete and filtered.
8. Political Manipulation and Lingering Consequences
[30:38 – 34:05]
- Soviet Threat as Political Tool:
- Even as the USSR was unraveling, Western governments exploited the "evil empire" narrative for political gain.
- Post-Gordievsky Paranoia:
- Double-edged: justified by real threats, yet amplified by political agendas in Thatcher’s and Reagan’s administrations.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On ex-Nazis shaping the early Cold War:
"The whole geopolitical sphere in 1945, 1946, is being dictated by ex Nazis. I find that deeply disturbing."
— Tim Tate [07:07] -
On institutional failures:
"Nothing happened to them, nothing at all. Some of them were quietly retired, pensioned off with a nice fat government pension... Not one had his collar felt. No one was ever prosecuted, no one was ever sent to jail."
— Tim Tate [19:16] -
On the enduring mystery of intelligence work:
"Everything we think we know about intelligence operations... is mediated. The narrative we are given is an approved narrative."
— Tim Tate [16:48] -
On why Soviet recruitment succeeded:
"Communism, Soviet Communism, seemed the only bulwark against fascism... Moscow cultivated that belief."
— Tim Tate [12:25] -
On the futility and danger of secrecy:
"If we don't understand our history, we're doomed to repeat it."
— Tim Tate [16:48]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [03:52]: Why did the Soviets target Britain?
- [05:04]: Britain's postwar vulnerability detailed
- [07:07]: Recruitment of ex-Nazis shapes the Cold War
- [09:17]: Peter Wright discovers the depth of penetration
- [10:54]: Internal MI5 suspicions and cover-ups
- [12:25]: Soviet recruitment in British universities
- [14:32]: Spies beyond the Cambridge Five
- [16:11]: Insights on the evolution of recruitment
- [19:16]: The fate of unmasked agents
- [22:24]: MI5 vs MI6 rivalry and the Philby fiasco
- [25:00]: Technical surveillance breakthroughs
- [27:44]: Golianewski’s impact and mental breakdown
- [30:38]: The legacy of Cold War paranoia
- [32:48]: The “wilderness of mirrors” in intelligence
- [34:05]: Golianewski’s case recommended for future episodes
Tone and Final Impressions
- Candid and Unnerving: The episode blends wry British skepticism and incredulity at the scale of blundering incompetence, cover-ups, and constant paranoia.
- Reflection on Propaganda and History: Tim Tate and Charlie Higson repeatedly emphasize how official narratives obscure the truth, echoing concerns that the failures of the past risk repeating themselves unless more transparency and honesty about espionage history is achieved.
"At the end of the day, as Tim said, you know, we're paying them. This is all our money." — Charlie Higson, reflecting [36:00]
Next Time
The next season of "The Spy Who" will explore David Rupert, the spy who helped bring down the Omar bomb plotter through daring infiltration of the IRA.
This episode provides a nuanced and detailed look at espionage’s shadow world, piercing the "approved narratives" and holding up a mirror to failures, rivalries, and the persistent, often hidden dangers at the heart of British intelligence.