Malika Andrews: Lessons in Healing

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Squeeze – Episode: Malika Andrews: Lessons in Healing

Introduction

In this heartfelt episode of The Squeeze, host Taylor Lautner welcomes esteemed ESPN journalist Malika Andrews to discuss her profound journey through mental health challenges and her path to healing. The conversation delves into Malika's early introduction to mental health struggles, her experiences during and after the pandemic, and the coping strategies that have empowered her to thrive both personally and professionally.

Early Life and Childhood

Malika begins by reminiscing about her seemingly perfect childhood, highlighting the strong family bonds and supportive environment she enjoyed. She shares fond memories of playing outdoors with her younger sister, Kendra, and the active involvement of her parents in her upbringing.

"I had the best childhood. I really did. I have a younger sister, Kendra, who also works at ESPN now." [03:14]

Despite this idyllic start, Malika reveals that her mental health struggles were not rooted in her home life but emerged unexpectedly during her adolescence.

Onset of Struggles

At the age of 12, Malika experienced her first significant mental health challenge when she got suspended from school for defending a friend. This incident marked the beginning of a downward spiral characterized by withdrawal, slipping grades, and emotional turmoil.

"I felt like my emotions were starting to grow outside of my body and I had no place to put them." [16:57]

Without the vocabulary to articulate her feelings, Malika found herself grappling with emotions that felt overwhelming and unmanageable.

Seeking Help and Treatment

Recognizing her need for assistance, Malika reached out to her mother, leading to a series of interventions including a month-long psychiatric evaluation and subsequent placements in various treatment centers. Her journey included:

1. Initial Hospitalization: A 72-hour psychiatric evaluation extended to a month due to insurance limitations.
2. Eating Disorder Residential Treatment: A three-week stay aimed at addressing her eating disorders.
3. Wilderness Therapy in Utah: A three-month intensive program focused on self-reflection and resilience.
4. Boarding Schools: Two-year stints in all-girls and co-ed residential treatment centers, lasting a total of 22 months and 16 months respectively.

"I was there for two years, 22 months. And then from there I went to sort of a step-down program that was co-ed in southern Utah." [30:52]

Throughout these experiences, Malika emphasizes the importance of support, both from her family and the therapeutic environments she was placed in.

Impact of Treatment and Personal Growth

Reflecting on her time in treatment, Malika acknowledges the transformative impact it had on her. She gained valuable tools for communication, empathy, and self-awareness that have been instrumental in her personal and professional life.

"I practice feedback and an empathy statement... being able to communicate when I don't think something is going well." [66:04]

Malika also highlights the role of horses in her healing process, describing how purchasing and caring for a horse named Dante provided her with responsibility, purpose, and a means to rebuild her social life.

"Horses are magical. They are empathetic creatures who can sense what you're feeling." [60:32]

Coping Strategies and Current Outlook

Today, Malika advocates for a balanced approach to mental health, emphasizing that life is a series of fluctuating moments rather than a constant state of balance. She shares her philosophy of treating oneself with the same kindness and patience one would offer a friend.

"Sometimes you have to treat yourself the way that you would treat others." [75:24]

Malika discusses the importance of hobbies, planning, and flexibility in maintaining mental wellness. Whether it's horseback riding or engaging in other fulfilling activities, she underscores the necessity of dedicating time to personal interests as a means of grounding and self-care.

"Finding whatever your thing is, just try it again." [64:00]

Conclusion

Malika concludes the conversation by stressing the importance of vulnerability and honesty in mental health discussions. She encourages listeners to embrace their imperfections and recognize that seeking help is a sign of strength, not weakness.

"No person is made up of the worst thing they've ever been or done." [73:46]

Her journey serves as an inspiring testament to resilience and the transformative power of seeking support. Malika's openness about her struggles aims to destigmatize mental health issues and provide comfort to those who feel alone in their battles.

Notable Quotes

• "When life gives you lemons, you find queso." [04:50]
• "No person is made up of the worst thing they've ever been or done." [73:46]
• "It's okay to sit in what's wrong for a little bit." [74:32]
• "Everybody deserves the opportunity to say I'm sorry." [70:21]

Key Takeaways

• Mental health struggles can arise even in seemingly perfect environments.
• Seeking help is a pivotal step towards healing and should be met with understanding and support.
• Therapeutic interventions, including wilderness therapy and personal hobbies, can significantly aid in recovery.
• Embracing vulnerability and practicing self-compassion are essential components of mental wellness.
• Sharing personal stories of mental health challenges can inspire and comfort others facing similar issues.

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Squeeze offers a poignant exploration of Malika Andrews' journey through mental health challenges. Her candid discussion provides valuable insights into the complexities of mental health, the importance of seeking help, and the ongoing process of healing. Listeners gain a deeper understanding of the human experience behind a successful career and are reminded that they are not alone in their struggles.

Transcript

[Malika Andrews]

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[Tay]

Today is hosted by an Emmy winner.

[Malika Andrews]

ESPN host Malika Andrews I'm Malika Andrews. I'm Malika Andrews. Because you're the first woman ever to host the NBA draft. This is incredible. You won an Emmy and were the first woman to host the NBA draft. Did you ever think your career because for a long time time I really didn't want to talk about it. Everything seems to be going right and yet there is a piece of you that feels so incredibly off and it's a little bit scary.

[Unknown]

What do you think it was that it felt like the right moment to start? Like speaking about it.

[Malika Andrews]

I didn't feel like I was offering up a holistic view of myself. The question I get the most is how could you not be upset with your parents for sending you to a place like that? There are no showers out there. You have a Nalgene bottle over your head when I talk you how badly I wanted to be normal. I didn't want to be a petri dish that people were like examining and so I didn't talk about it. My parents hired two people to escort me because they were told that for my safety, that would be the best thing to do. I'm really thankful for people like Paris Hilton who have had larger conversations about what regulations need to happen at these sorts of places. No person is made up of the worst thing they've ever been or done.

[Unknown]

Malika, welcome to the Squeeze.

[Malika Andrews]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[Unknown]

We're equally, if not more excited.

[Malika Andrews]

It's not possible, but I'm looking forward to squeezing into that space between excitement with my excitement.

[Tay]

Okay, so we start each episode off with this jar. It's a game called Citrus Got Real. If you want to pull one of those little pieces of paper out.

[Malika Andrews]

Okay.

[Tay]

And read them.

[Unknown]

Drum roll.

[Malika Andrews]

Drum roll, please. Ooh. Guacamole or queso.

[Unknown]

Easy.

[Malika Andrews]

As a Californian, I think this is a probably a really controversial take.

[Unknown]

Okay. Wow. You're going to say queso.

[Malika Andrews]

I'm going to say queso.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Malika Andrews]

I love cheese.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Malika Andrews]

I love cheese. And I think that. Here's the thing. Bad queso is still good. Bad guacamole gets a little funny.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I hear that.

[Malika Andrews]

So I'm going to go. I'm going queso.

[Tay]

Do you like queso? Like, just. Just the cheese queso or do you like queso with, like, the meat bits?

[Malika Andrews]

I will. I don't. I don't discriminate. All queso is good queso, but the bits in it really, really adds to it.

[Unknown]

Remember when I was making queso for a sec? That was random. I need to bring that back.

[Tay]

I mean, yeah, maybe like, once or twice, but not a lot.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

I can stay for dinner.

[Tay]

You were on a queso kick. I forgot about that.

[Unknown]

Yeah, but I think it was around, like. I don't know. I think I started it around, like, a Super bowl time. And then after I made it for Super Bowl.

[Tay]

We should make that for Super Bowl.

[Unknown]

Hey, Super Bowl's coming up.

We'll be here.

Fortunately, we will be home.

[Tay]

Now we will be in our home.

[Malika Andrews]

I'm sorry.

[Unknown]

As will our Lions. But I can make my queso. There's a plus.

[Malika Andrews]

See, look, it's the bright side. It's binding. When life gives you lemons, you find queso.

[Unknown]

There we go.

[Malika Andrews]

There you go.

[Unknown]

Life.

[Tay]

Life with lemons leads to queso. Yeah, mine's going to be guac, but I do like queso. But I am lactose intolerant, so I can't have too much queso.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

Dairy free queso probably isn't. Doesn't hit the same.

[Malika Andrews]

That doesn't have the same sort of ring to it, I don't think.

[Tay]

I also, like, love lime, so. Like a limey wok.

[Malika Andrews]

Yep. And that helps with the freshness as. As we were talking about. If you want to have a fresh guacamole, then add a lot of lime.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, I'm probably. I'm guac here. I do agree with you that it's that you can have bad guac, but. Yeah, that queso still is.

[Malika Andrews]

Is. Yeah. Even the ones that you get in the jar, like, you, like, forget about.

[Unknown]

Do you have Chipotle's queso?

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, I would. I. I really. Yeah, I think I do. I've never. I've never. I've never been asked about Chipotle's queso before. Like, much thought into it, but now that I'm thinking about it, I think if people. If, If. If it was put down in front of me, I wouldn't say no.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

How's that? Yeah, for sure. I would go for it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tay]

That's a good answer. I like it. Okay, well, as we already said, we are super excited to have you for two reasons. One, I mean, both of us, but for me especially, I've looked up to you as like, a woman in sports. Like, I just think I love. I. I love sports. And I've watched you for a very long time, so I'm just, like, really excited to, like, get to talk to you and, like, knowing you and watching you for all these years, I'm excited for that. But also because your story is just. I'm super excited to hear more about your story from you and for our.

[Unknown]

Listeners to hear because.

[Tay]

It'S just cool to see where you've gone through in life and to have you sitting here with us today is really cool.

[Unknown]

I second that. When jumping off of that, when Tay asked me if I would want to have Malika Andrews on, I was like, duh. But just. Just from what I know about you from the outside. And she was like, yeah. Like, have you heard about her mental health journey? And I was like, no. And she filled me in a little bit.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And it just kind of reminded me. And I feel like we all need this reminder ever so often that, like, you can't judge a book by its cover because, like, for me, from what I'm know about you, I'm just like, you're just a boss. Like, I'm just, like, just so freaking smart and has everything going for you and then she tells me, like, you know, what you've gone through and where you've came from to get to this today. And it just, like, I never would have thought that in a million years about you. And it just goes to show, like, you don't know what people, like, have gone through and what, like, happens to make them the humans that they are today.

[Malika Andrews]

So it's kind of funny that when I was. And we'll talk about it, my. My boarding school years, sort of the time after trying to sort of find my. Myself being hospitalized, all of these sorts of different things, because that's. You're in it, right? When you're in it, that feels like it's what's going to define you forever. And then you. Hopefully, you're able to continue on to another chapter, and then that chapter starts to be what defines you. And I think that if you can sort of take a little bit more with you along the way and remind people of sort of all of the pieces of you that leads to this.

[Unknown]

This.

[Malika Andrews]

This puzzle and this tapestry and this mosaic, I think that that's what I'm trying to do. Because for a long time, I really didn't want to talk about it, right? And I didn't want to talk about. Wasn't so much shame as it was. I wanted to find other definitions of myself. And that was such a boarding school. Malika, right. Was such a prevalent piece of my life for so long that I worried. I didn't know how I was going to find other parts of me. I didn't want to be defined by what I didn't get to be able to do. And for a long time in my head, that was it, right? I didn't go to high school. I went to boarding school. So when people would ask me a totally innocuous question, when everyone's from the Bay Area, oh, where'd you go to school? I don't wanna, like. I don't wanna talk about that. I wanna redefine what that story is. And so it's interesting to me to hear you say you came to me through sports because it all felt so. My story felt so muddled for so long that only now does it feel like I can hold all of these different pieces of it. And so that's sort of what I'm trying to do by talking about it a little bit more.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's so cool. So. And you. You kind of somewhat recently, like, opened up about it for the first time, right? What was. What do you think it was at that Time that it felt like the. The right moment to start, like speaking about it and being honest.

[Malika Andrews]

Well, I. I was always honest with the people that were closest to me, but I felt like at times the hour that I appeared, or on some days it's six hours, but the hour I appeared on television every day was how I was being defined. And it started to nag at me maybe a little bit that I didn't feel like I was offering up a holistic view of myself. And so I think there is some accountability that happens for you in all of that. But also, you know, the people that come up to you and say they enjoy your work or how do you do what you do? And I wanted to maybe take away some of the perfection sprinkles that kind of go all over this, because I think that so often when you see people who maybe are doing what you want to do or have had some success, there's this thought of, well, that just appeared. And I hope that by talking about it a little bit more, particularly, you know, I think that in black and brown communities, mental health isn't something that's talked about as much. I hope that I can be helpful to other people, but also that's something that sort of holds myself accountable as well. So it was a little bit of both of those things, I think.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tay]

Are you happy with your decision to talk about it?

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, I am. I. I don't think that means that there aren't. I was worried. Okay. Once something is out there, you can't control or where it goes, where it goes, how it's heard. But I love that saying what other people think of me is none of my business. So there's a little bit of that. And also it was overwhelmingly hearing from people who found something that resonated with them, I'm sure. And that was also something that. That felt good. And it also felt like my story was landing with the people who needed to hear it. And so that also was something that. I'm happy with it. And also, it doesn't mean you can't decide tomorrow. You know what? I know I've talked about this in the past, but today I need to just close that door for now. It doesn't mean forever, but I'm not today. I need to do this for me today. So I think that. That having. Having that sort of ownership over it also was something that was really helpful to me.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah.

[Tay]

Other people's opinions are none of my business. Is that what it is? I want to remember that.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

I haven't heard that before.

[Tay]

Love that.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah. What other people think of me, that's none of my business.

[Unknown]

It's so funny. It sounds like I was gonna say it's Mel Robbins. Let them theory.

[Malika Andrews]

Stop it. If you just told me that I have anything in common with Mel Robbins.

[Unknown]

Literally, what she came on here.

[Malika Andrews]

It's only. It's only January year. It's only early in the year, and my year is already made if you say that.

[Unknown]

So funny.

[Tay]

Oh, my gosh. No, that literally is it.

[Unknown]

You would love her. Her new book then.

[Malika Andrews]

I'm so excited to read it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, it's good.

[Tay]

Okay. I feel like we should just dive in and start from the beginning.

[Malika Andrews]

Back up. Okay.

[Tay]

Yeah, I think we should. We think we should go right back to the beginning, honestly. Maybe just start with before any, like, warning signs or struggles were happening. What was your childhood like?

[Malika Andrews]

I had the best childhood. I really did. I have a younger sister, Kendra, who also works at ESPN now. And I remember my dad telling me when I was younger, and you have siblings. And I remember my dad telling me when I was younger, your sister's gonna be your best friend. And when you're in kindergarten, first, second, third, fourth grade, and then when you get in your teenage years, you're like, yeah, right, dad. You don't know what you're talking about. This person in my class, that is my homegirl. That is my best. He was absolutely right. And it started when we were really little. We have always been incredibly close. We had wild imaginations. We would go outside in the backyard and just play for hours, just the two of us and our imaginary friends. My dad is a big, outdoorsy guy, and so he built us a swing in the backyard, and we would climb trees and play soccer. And I just had. My mom is an artist, and she would draw us paper dolls and we would color them in. And I just had the best and happiest childhood. And I think that when I did start to struggle and people would ask me what's wrong or what happened or did someone. I think that. And understandably and rightfully so, so many people, it starts from a place of a relationship and childhood where something went wrong. But I think that that particularly confusing for me is I have. And as I've gotten older, I have the best parents. They're not just, like, good people. I have really good parents. They're good as people, for sure. But my parents didn't miss soccer games, and they didn't miss the school plays and the drop offs and the volunteers, and they worked Incredibly hard. My dad left the house in the morning before I got up and he was back just in time for dinner every night. And sometimes we'd have to hold it a couple of minutes around 7, 7:30 to eat all together as a family. But I never recognized how special that was. I never recognized all four of us every night having dinner together. That was something that not everybody had. And so my parents were incredibly close. My sister is still my best friend to this day, even when she steals my clothes and all of that stinky sister stuff. But when I started to become angrier, was the term I had then. I think now there's much more complex words that I can use to describe was really confusing when understandably therapists or other people would ask you about, well, like, what's going on at home? And truly at home was the best and school was pretty great. It was just this fire that kind of started that I didn't know where to put or how to describe. And it made it really confusing, I think, both to people trying to help me and to myself. When everything seems to be going right and yet there is a piece of you that maybe you don't even have a term for that feels so incredibly off and it's a little bit scary. And so that was for me what it was. Because, yeah, my child. I had the best. I had the best childhood. I really did.

[Unknown]

So how did it start to show at its beginning?

[Malika Andrews]

I got suspended in middle school.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Malika Andrews]

I don't think I've ever told this story before.

[Unknown]

It'll stay here.

[Malika Andrews]

Well, it's sort of. Yeah, I think it's sort of. But truly I'm laughing now, but I think it was. I got suspended in middle school just for a day. Someone called my friend a name at a school dance and I hit them. And I remember being then called into the office a couple of days later. And you know, I was 12, right. And I had no idea why I was there because it was one of those things where you just like, oh, stop it. And like, I didn't take that as something, but this other person really did. And I remember, you know, I went into the principal's office and it was a whole to do and. And they said, you know, you're going to not come into school tomorrow. And it was that. But then it was more little things. I started to withdraw and those family dinners, I didn't really talk anymore. And my grades really started slipping and I started being dishonest with my parents because I didn't know. I'm a People pleaser. And I didn't know. I didn't want them to worry about me. Your teacher called. What's going on in this class or that class, and really it's just that, like, my brain, I couldn't juggle it all. I couldn't balance it all. And I felt like my emotions were starting to grow outside of my body and I had no place to put them and I didn't know what to do with them. And then that sort of continuously spiraled. And I think that when you're like girls on the front end of all of this and you're changing and everything's changing in your life, you don't really know what to do with all that. When you're the first. When you're the first. And I don't know, but when did you. Anxiety or you know, those sorts of words. Do you, like, remember when those words came into your life?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

No, because I wasn't 12.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

Definitely not.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

And so I didn't have the words for any of those sorts of things. You know, I feel like it's only been in the last couple of years that that's become something that people are comfortable talking about so early.

[Unknown]

So then it was just confused.

[Malika Andrews]

Right.

[Unknown]

You're just like, what is this feeling?

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, it's like.

[Unknown]

Like you were saying, it's like bigger than you.

[Malika Andrews]

Right.

[Unknown]

And where do you place it and put it to understand what's going on? Especially at, you know, that age.

[Malika Andrews]

Exactly. Because there's not really a good answer. You know what I mean?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

And nothing. It wasn't. You know, again, I kept being asked what happened, and I was so frustrated not to have an answer to what happened.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Malika Andrews]

But I think that's probably true for a lot of people. It's not so much what happened, it's who am I and what are my makeups that I have to contend with, Both the good and the things that need to be improved. And for me, that was just part of my makeup and I didn't know where to put it or what to do with it. Especially with all this happiness around me.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

If you see so much happiness around you, you don't want to be the wet blanket.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Malika Andrews]

And I didn't want to be the wet blanket.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

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[Tay]

Off when you say someone like asking you, is something going on at home? Was that in therapy or who was. Who was asking you?

[Malika Andrews]

I mean, my parents would ask. It was like from every, every place looking for the other place. So your teachers would ask you what's happening at home? And your parents would ask you what's happening at school and your friends would ask you what's going on? And then of course it got more formalized way on down the road. But that's. It's. It's sort of like it was sort of. Everyone could tell something was wrong. Yeah, but I didn't have the words for it. And so I started. My parents got my. Because my parents, they're the best. They got very worried.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. What was. Cause you I mean, jumping, this is a jump forward, right? But you, you end up being gone for a total of three years. But what, where was the first place you got sent to? And what was kind of that breaking point that happened that your parents were like, we don't know what to do ourselves, we need help.

[Malika Andrews]

I called my mom at school, actually. I got in a fight with a friend just over. You don't seem like yourself and you're not being very nice and what's going on with you. And I called my mom and I said, I think I might need a little bit of help.

[Unknown]

How old are you here?

[Malika Andrews]

I was in eighth grade, so I was like 13 or 14.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Malika Andrews]

I called my mom and I said, I think I need a little bit of help. I had no idea when I was asking for that help what journey that was going to take me on. I just felt like I needed to pause and maybe if I could just pause for a little bit and take a breath, then I would figure out how to not feel the way that I was feeling. And so she picked me up and she called my therapist. I was going to, you know, weekly therapy at the time for an hour. And my therapist said, okay, these are some recommendations. And I ended up going to a hospital in the Bay Area. And what started as a 72 hour psychiatric evaluation ended up being a month long stay. So I was there for a month and for, you know, various insurance reasons, at the end of a month it was like, you need to either go somewhere else because we, you need to go somewhere else because we're not helping you the way that you need to be helped. And also because this isn't what these facilities are meant to do. They're not meant to be long term solutions for people. So after a month I was transferred down to Downey, California. I came down here, my parents brought me down to Downey, and I was in a eating disorder residential treatment center for three weeks. And I was told there that we're not equipped to help you. And so I was asking for help and my parents were trying to help me, but there wasn't just that, it wasn't straightforward. And so from there I went to wilderness therapy. And I was in wilderness therapy for three months. Yeah, in Utah. And from there I went to my first boarding school which was a residential treatment center that was all girls in northern Utah. And I was there for two years, 22 months. And then from there I went to sort of a step down program that was co ed in southern Utah. And I was there for 16 months. So from 14 to just shy of my 18th birthday. That was sort of the road that I took.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

And you know, what's. Like, I'm talking about this and I feel my voice getting all serious. And, you know, now it's just sort of part of my story. Like, it's just kind of like that's how it happened for me. But it's not something that I think about now with this sort of. It's people. Well, what do you think would have happened if you did? I have no idea. It's just the. I think it made me. Me in a sense. And we can back up and go through any one of those steps a little bit more because I know it's a lot, but I think that part of it too, when I was. When you asked me at the beginning of this, how do you want to start telling your story? I think it's because people. I started to feel good about telling what happened. And it wasn't just this. This story. It was. Well, no, this is. This is just what it was. And when people met that with curiosity and with wonder and also with questions and also with their own vulnerabilities and also with their own relating to what I was saying, that felt very different than people sitting and being like, oh, poor you. Because I didn't want that. I wanted to be myself first. Before I was the boarding school girl or the treatment girl or the different girl. I didn't want to be different like that because I've been different my whole life. And so I think that was part of it too. Now that we're, you know.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

Sending you my therapy bill.

[Tay]

You don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but I'm curious if you're willing to share what. What were some of those things you were struggling with when you were in the first psych ward at the hospital that they were like, no, we can't like.

[Malika Andrews]

So with eating disorders, they. Once you are medically stable, oftentimes they say the. The psychological aspect is for elsewhere. You know, these hospitals are. Are meant to help people who are in danger to their self or other people. And once you have sort of cleared that. That threshold, that's where they start to say, okay, these are places that we can help you go for a longer journey. And for me, that's what it was. And I also think that, you know, there's a lot of people struggling with a lot of different things there. And so when one coping mechanism is taken away, you start to sort of look at what others could be. And so by the time I was in boarding school, it was certainly food, but it was also self harm and I, I didn't feel less sad. And my dad especially really, really wanted to figure out a place to help me with that. And for him very differently. But wilderness and the mountain. My dad's a ski patrolman and a rock climber and an outdoorsman. And so he was like, yes, like the wilderness is a place that people heal.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Malika Andrews]

Because quite literally, you're stripped of everything except for being able. You know, you, you show up and you're in a, you know, this was the, the 2000 and, and, and singles, like 2008, 7, 8, 9.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

So you show up in your, your tracksuit and you're looking around and you are handed a pile of clothes and it's okay, change into, change into these clothes that have the zip off cargo pants and the, you know, athletic long underwear. And here's six pairs of underwear to change into. And here's three shirts and here's your Crocs and here's your hiking boots and here's your backpack with your food in it. And off you go. And that's kind of it. You're sort of forced to look in at yourself, even though I, I'm not sure I totally was ready.

[Unknown]

That's what I was gonna ask is did you know what you were getting myself into going to this wilderness?

[Malika Andrews]

I had no idea. I don't think any of my parents didn't know. I didn't know. I had no idea.

[Tay]

Where, where did it come from?

[Unknown]

Where did this.

[Malika Andrews]

My therapist at home combined with the resident, the, the treatment center I was at. This was their recommendation.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So what did like daily life look like at this wilderness camp?

[Malika Andrews]

That's an interesting question. I would wake up with the sun because you're outside and there's no blackout shades in the wilderness. And we would hike every day from water source to water source. And in your backpack, it was like a big pack, like the size of me. You'd have to sit down on the ground and strap it to your chest and get like pulled up by somebody else when it was full because they were pretty heavy. You would wake up and you would go down. You had a, you got a food drop every week that had dried beans, oats, rice, dried cheese, not good for queso, dried milk, an apple, a tuna packet container. Prized possession was your little Ziploc baggie of brown sugar. And you would make some sort of breakfast over the coals from the night before you would pack up camp, you would put sand over the fire you would strap your pack on and you would hike anywhere from two to nine miles to the next water source. You would hike with there's six to eight other girls out there, two or three staff members. You would hike to the next water or the next water camp site. The staff had sort of mapped out where you were going next and had walkie talkies in communication back with the folks who were at base out of the staff who was at base out of the desert. You would hike there. You would see and survey the place that you were going to set up. And when I say campsite, I mean area with less bramble. It wasn't a, you know, like where you would pull up an RV to. This was exactly. Not glamping, not glamping. You would find flat ground, you would take rope that was in your pack and hang up rope from like one tree to another was ideal. And you would take other rope and put a tarp over that as an, A frame tent, a makeshift, A frame tent. And you would put that down with rocks on all four corners. And you would set up your mat and your sleeping bag. I was really good at making coals. And so that's the. We would work with a bow and spindle and top rock to create downward pressure to create coals for fire with another person. And we'd set up our fire with that. And then you would make dinner and you would do it over again the next day. There was a therapist who would come out once a week. We all had journals, a lot of journaling, a lot of reading like Man Search for Meaning and that sort of book. And that was, that was pretty typical. I know, you know, a lot of people have had a lot of different experiences with wilderness therapy. Some really horrific and some. A little bit more like me. That was just sort of a stop along the way. Some helpful, some things that in hindsight are a little bit adult to ask a 14 year old to do so. I certainly respect that. A lot of people have had a lot of different walks through this sorts of therapy. And I'm really thankful for people like Paris Hilton who have had larger conversations about what regulations need to happen at these sorts of places. But for me, it was sort of a three month break. You're hiking through snow, you're hiking through rain, you're in the desert in Utah. I got letters once a week from my family. I got to write letters back. So it was a very, very much a, a reflective thing. It's Just, it's so. It feels so far away from where I am now. But, yeah, that's what, that's what it, it looked like a lot of the time. You earned beads for doing things, reading a book. You earned a black bead. Earning a. Yeah, so it was. Yeah, that's what it was like.

[Unknown]

So you can find. Because I was curious about that, but it sounds like that this is the case. Looking back at that, you can definitely find positives that you took away from that experience.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, I, you know, it was. It was 15 years ago. And I think with time comes a lot of healing. The question I get the most is how could you not be upset with your parents for sending you to a place like that?

[Unknown]

Right.

[Malika Andrews]

Because my parents were doing the best that they could with the information that they had. And because ultimately all of this was building blocks to who I am. I. I can't fault or be upset with that. And I also have plenty of empathy and want to hear other people's experiences because that's the way that these sorts of things will be a force only for good. So I think we need to continue to talk about these sorts of things. But for me, that was what the experience is like. And, you know, one day I got a letter from my parents saying, you're gonna leave and you're going to this boarding school and we're gonna come pick you up. There are no showers out there. You have a Nalgene bottle over your head, like for three months. That was the. So there's definitely. It was definitely a. It was not what other 14 year old girls were doing at that point, for sure. Which is why when people say, well, what was, you know, prom like? No idea. Didn't go right. Never had one.

[Tay]

Yeah. Wow.

[Malika Andrews]

14.

[Tay]

Did you have. Because I know we've watched like some documentaries and people talk about, like being like taken like from their homes, like to. Did you have that?

[Malika Andrews]

My parents hired two people to escort me because they were told that for my safety, that would be the best thing to do. I was told that these folks were coming, so it wasn't very surprising as I think a lot of the experiences that my peers have had.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Tay]

This is my brain just going out of curiosity, do you know why they. Why it would be safer for people to transport you rather than your family?

[Malika Andrews]

You know, everyone's more likely to push back on their parents.

[Tay]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Malika Andrews]

And I also think that my parents had a really hard time sending me away. And so if your child asks you, I know I asked for help, but I don't want to go anymore. They were going with the best information they had. And the experts were saying, you know what? This is the process here. And so they said, okay, we're going to go with that process. And so they did.

[Tay]

Throughout your time there, did you feel like you were improving at all, or did you just kind of feel the same?

[Malika Andrews]

Can I answer that by saying my mind felt quieter, I think for whatever, like. And again, like, it's hard to. I'm doing my best to. I kept really good diaries back then, and I have them. They're all in my closet. My mom, like, shipped me a box at some point of. And I kept really, really good at, you know, notes and diaries, but I haven't gone back through all of them. I think I will at some. Yeah, I also smell like campfire and not like, good, like. But, you know, I think I'm definitely giving you guys the time has healed all wounds version just because, you know, I'm sitting here getting to do everything that I do. And, you know, my road through all of this maybe doesn't look the same as a lot of folks. You know, I cover the NBA now, but there's a lot of people in the sport that have all sorts of stories of overcoming, and mine is definitely my own version. And we can have all sorts of conversations about the expense and access to these sorts of therapies and needing to be able to find a way for people who have less resources to get help, because that's a really, really important conversation to have. And whenever I talk to guys who have had a different experience, but there are similarities. It's something that we kind of find as a way to kind of come together and have conversations about our upbringing. So I don't even remember what your question was, but I hope I answered.

[Tay]

I love to answer.

[Unknown]

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[Tay]

No, I was gonna ask what. So would it be normal for after, after the wilderness camp to go to boarding school or.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Tay]

Okay.

[Malika Andrews]

It was I think one, one girl that I went to wilderness with that I recall maybe two. And I was there. Like I went from being the newbie to. I'd been there the longest amount of time and not everyone had that experience right. And some people always were somewhere in the middle. I only saw one or two people go directly home from wilderness because it's, it's going from that then showing up to like high school the next day. I couldn't imagine. Yeah, I couldn't imagine.

[Unknown]

Yeah. No, that makes sense.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah. It was sort of a in between program.

[Tay]

And you were. When your parents said you were gonna go to boarding school, you were just.

[Malika Andrews]

Like, I was excited to get out of wilderness.

[Tay]

Yeah, I guess.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, I was excited to get out of wilderness and I was curious what was next, you know, and they Told me that there were going to be horses there. And I have always been an equestrian. It is my lifelong love. And I was really excited for that part too.

[Tay]

Wow.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah.

[Tay]

So you go to boarding school. You're there from 14 to 16?

[Unknown]

Ish.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, I think 14 to 16 and then 16 to close to 18 for my second boarding school.

[Tay]

Okay. At this boarding school. This was the all girls one. Yeah, right. I think I read that they had these things where it was like positive and negatives.

[Unknown]

Like Hogwarts, that was in the doc that we watched too, was like, you get rewarded points that get you like.

[Malika Andrews]

I think we saw the same documentary.

[Unknown]

Okay, I know I'm forgetting what it was.

[Malika Andrews]

It was on. Yeah, I remember. I don't remember the name of it. We watched that documentary different. But also a point system.

[Unknown]

Right. That can allow you to call home or.

[Malika Andrews]

So we didn't have that. So we didn't. We. There wasn't. Again, there are so many. There's a breadth of experiences in these types of boarding schools. And I am so in awe of the people who have come forward to talk about those sorts of things. Losing those sorts of privileges, because that would be awful. In my boarding school, you could earn positive points for cleaning your room and for helping somebody out and for doing your chore and a whole myriad of things you can earn positive points for. Yeah, you could earn negative points for. On the flip side, if you left or left your sock out, even if it wasn't intentional. There were things that you could earn negative points for. For, you know, your room comes to get checked. And we, we understand you tried, but this big brown spot in the middle of the floor should have been cleaned up, therefore. Yeah. So you could lose privileges which were socializing with other girls, wearing makeup, eating dessert. All of your extra time on days you didn't have privileges would be spent trying to make up your privileges for the next day or the next week. But family calls with parents were not something that you could lose. You could lose like a friend call once you'd gotten up to earning that. But family calls weren't something that they took away. That didn't mean. At times there were systems that were a little bit baffling, but it was, you know, you would earn negative points if you failed a test. Like those sorts of things, by the way, like the school aspect of it. I went to school. You know, some houses have a separate garage. The separate garage had been converted into a schoolhouse. And so that's where I went to school. And I would sit next to you know, if I'm in ninth grade at this point, I would do my individualized schooling, but the person to my left might be in sixth grade, and the person to my right might be in 12th grade. And so you would do your individualized schooling, which is another reason, I think, you know, assimilating back to what's college going to look like or a normal high school. I put that in air quotes. Was a little bit interesting.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tay]

It'S. It's so. I mean, I just. I grew up so normal in public school, so, like, trying to, like.

[Malika Andrews]

But like, to imagine, like. Yeah, it's not. It's not. Not normal. But I. When I tell you how badly I wanted to be normal and how much I worried about. We've been talking for, I don't know how long, and I've, like, skimmed the surface of what all this looked like. I didn't want to be a petri dish that people were, like, examining. And so I didn't talk about it because I just wanted to be me, and I just wanted to be 17, and I just wanted to be, you know, all of these different things. But, you know, when you start unraveling a little bit, it's different. It's different than what most people go to, but to me, like, going to. I want to hear all of, like, what was your prom like? And when did you get a car? And. Because all of that was different for me.

[Tay]

Oh, yeah, Driver's license.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, I didn't get a driver's license until I was 18.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah.

[Tay]

Okay. Sorry.

[Unknown]

No. Oh, well, I. I was just gonna ask about Dante. What was. So was that.

[Tay]

Do you want to tell.

[Unknown]

Dante is a horse, FYI, he's a horse.

[Malika Andrews]

Dante is a horse. That my mother at some point put in an email. D, O, N T E. And so D, O, N T E. And Dante is spelled with an A, not an E. And I've never, like any article, anything, has always said D A, N T E, because that's how you actually spell Dante. Oh, my God. But he was D O n T. Oh, funny. And that's what made him my computer password for many, many years. Not anymore. But of course, threw people off. Anyways. Dante the horse, of course.

[Unknown]

Was that. Was that in your. The final boarding school?

[Malika Andrews]

So my final boarding school in this long and winding chapter was in southern Utah. And at that school, you could earn a lot more privileges than at any of my previous boarding schools. The other boarding schools, they. They were lockdown facilities. Still, they were. Every thing was as a group. There Were very specific off campus activities that you could do, but never by yourself.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

When I was at my final stop, my final school, you could earn having a cell phone, which by the way, wild, because the amount that I went from, I left and it was like typing out razor.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

And I came back and there were iPhones.

[Unknown]

Oh, wow.

[Malika Andrews]

Whoa. What is. Yes. I never. Yeah, I had no. I had no idea.

[Unknown]

Like, touch screen.

[Malika Andrews]

Touch screen was crazy to me. Social media, I had no. My sister, my little sister was like, yeah, there's this thing called Instagram. You should, you know, be on it. And so, yeah, my last boarding school, you could earn off campus activities. And one of the activities that I was really focused on earning was being able to horseback ride. And there was a woman who taught horseback riding lessons, lessons at a barn close by. And she used three horses that a family owned. And one of them was this horse named Dante. And Dante was a little bit of a devil. He had a little bit of a mean streak in him. He was a little sassy. He was a little bit difficult. And I started riding him when I was there. And then I left and I went home after. In August. The August before I turned 18. So this was August of 2011, maybe. Yeah, August of 2011 and 2011. 2012. Somewhere in there. And a couple of months after, I decided to take a gap year because I graduated high school early because I went to year round school just doing that independent study. I decided to take a gap year to let my grade catch up because again, I was tired of being. I didn't want to be the young, different girl anymore. I wanted to be with my peers. So I came home, I worked for a year and lived with my parents and got to see my sister, you know, in. In high school. And I got a call from this woman who I rode with, and she said, hey, Dante's owners are moving and they just don't have the space or the time to put into this horse. Would you want him?

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Malika Andrews]

And you know, he'll be $1,000, which was all the money I had in my bank account. And you have to pay for his transport from Utah to California. And so I bought him and transported him back and found a place to stable him. And it was pretty awesome because that became my life for that year. All of my friends there's. So you grow up so much between 12 and 17. It's so rare to have lifelong friendships like that. And especially when you go cold turkey and kind of disappear, because it wasn't like I told my Friends. I was leaving. I just left, and I never came back. And so I don't have a lot of friends after coming back from that experience. And I was able to make friends at the barn through Dante. And that was how I found my people and a social life and girls my age that I could be friends with, that all that mattered was our commonality in horses. And not all of, where'd you go to high school? And all of these other things. And so I made two really good girlfriends, and I brought Dante back to California with me. And for that year, that was my. That was my whole social life. That helped me kind of rebuild a social life. Was. Was Dante. Wow. Yeah, That's.

[Tay]

So we have some friends that have done, like, horse therapy, and they just absolutely swear, like, by it. It's.

[Malika Andrews]

I think horses are magical. I think. I mean, they're. They're empathetic creatures who can sense what you're feeling, and they're super, super sensitive. And I never thought I was gonna have another horse. I sold Dante. Actually, I gave Dante away when I was a sophomore in college because I was working all the time to try to afford him, and I just couldn't anymore. And my parents had always said, if you're getting a horse, that is your deal. We can't. You know, my wonderful teacher and my wonderful trainer dad were not in that sort of position, and so they wanted to support me, but they couldn't support me in that way. And so I was working all the time, and I just. I didn't have any time to ride them. And so Dante, he's still alive. He's retired now. He's in his late 20s, and I get pictures from his new owner every once in a while of him just, like, fat and happy and chilling in a backyard. I didn't think I would get another horse, and I just recently got another horse.

[Unknown]

Really?

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah. And he looks scary. Like Dante, actually. Oh, wow. But, yeah, that was a recent thing. Charlie.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Malika Andrews]

Charlie. Because my Dave thought it would be funny to have a horse named Charlie. Horse, like a cramp funny. And.

[Tay]

Oh, my gosh. That's so funny.

[Malika Andrews]

He also, like, is a little mouthy, and so. Charlie, you bit my finger.

[Tay]

Oh, my gosh. That's a perfect name.

[Malika Andrews]

So, yeah, he's Charlie. Charlie the horse.

[Unknown]

That's great.

[Tay]

Oh, my gosh. So that definitely helped. Having Dante at the stables definitely, like, helped integrate you back.

[Malika Andrews]

I was working and going to the barn every day, and it gave me a responsibility and a purpose and a reason, and it was. And Friendships, like, I really can't stress enough. Friends are everything when you're a teenager. They really are. And maybe that's where it comes full circle of, like, my sister really is my best friend. Because, you know, you. You lose friends, and people, you know, have their lives that are right in front of them. And it's easy to feel like, you know, people moved on and the world moved on without you.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

And he was a very centering, grounding part of my life. I don't know. Do you have hobbies like that?

[Tay]

I need to get a hobby like that. We talk about this all the time. I feel like I'm in, like, one of those weird places where. Who was I. I was just listening to someone talk about this. Like, I don't. I don't know what hobbies I have, like, other than, like, organizing and cleaning things. Like, like, what are my hobbies? Like, what's my favorite color? What's my fit? Like, I feel like I'm not. I'm not forgetting who I am, but, like, those basic things, I'm like, I don't. I need a hot.

[Unknown]

Like, what.

[Tay]

What is my hobby?

[Unknown]

We're gonna get back into pickleball again.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, get back into pickleball. I know that's a good. You know, for me, with horses, it was that I told myself this story that I didn't have time because it's a. It's a commitment. You have to go out there and you ride for an hour, and you should take a shower after, otherwise you're gonna smell like barn. So you can't just, like, zip off to the next thing. Yeah. And so I told myself this story for years with my job, which I love, but I feel. And I feel that you need to put into it in order to do it at the level that basketball fans, that players deserve. And so I told myself the story that I didn't have time for horses or a hobby for years. And a couple of years. Two years ago, my. Almost three. My. No, two years ago, my husband got me horseback riding lessons as a gift for the holidays. And he said, here's, you know, three lessons. Just, like, get back into it and see what you can find. And what I found is that I had two hours a day that I was just 10 minutes of not paying attention here and 30 minutes of meandering there and 20 minutes of lollygagging over here. All of a sudden, you put all of that together and you have time for this really beautiful, rewarding hobby. And I started slowly. I started with lessons and then I leased a horse and then just recently I got a horse and he plays pickup basketball. That's his thing. A hobby where you can't look at your phone. A hobby that's all consuming of your mind and your body is a really. I think it's a necessary thing, particularly in the world we live in today. I think that finding whatever your thing is, whatever your jam is, if it's pickleball, like just try it. Yeah, yeah, just try it again.

[Unknown]

Do have to do a better job finding something like that.

[Tay]

Yeah, no, I think that's such a good reminder because I'm so like all the time, like I'm just always thinking of things I could be doing or work and I'm like, I don't, like I don't have the time to do that. But you do.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah. And I think as women in particular, I mean how many times which well intentioned question are we asked about our balance, our work life balance. And I think that everybody is asked about it, but I think women in particular, it comes up in a, in a different way.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

And I think this, the sooner or louder maybe we can be honest that there is no balance. Balance doesn't exist. Lately I'm trying to reframe it as what's my work life recipe? Because the recipe is going to be different every day. It's going to be a dash of, of horseback riding, a hefty load of studio time and basketball games, a sprinkle of movie night with the husband, a little, a little additive here of some exercise. And that's the recipe for today. But tomorrow the recipe is going to be all work and the next day the recipe is going to be all bar, whatever that is. I think that the sooner that we can stop putting the pressure on ourselves to when is the last time everything was in perfect synchronicity? It doesn't happen. It's just a recipe. It's. It's never going to be balanced. And I think when we can remove that pressure, we're going to be in a better place.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. That's a cool album.

[Malika Andrews]

Love.

[Tay]

That's so good. I love that. So sitting here today, I'm curious two things. One, I guess this kind of goes back but when you left, you know, when you finally finished boarding school, you came back, did you feel equipped with tools to assimilate back into everyday life? And then I guess the fast forward is what are those tools and mental health outlook look like for you now?

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah. Yes, I know that was not very convincing. I'm Gonna move my very loud pants. The short answer is yes, I do think I came out with tools that I didn't go into boarding school having. Yeah. Even something as simple as this is so silly. But practicing feedback and an empathy statement is something that I learned in boarding school. So being able to communicate when I don't think something is going well. Right. Instead of just saying, I really don't like the way you did that, it's Tay, I understand that you took a lot of time in crafting that question and you put a lot of work into it, and I really appreciate the time that you took. However, to me, it feels like the way that we should talk about coping mechanisms. It's okay to talk about them as changing over time, and I really understand that, you know, So I think that there's a lot of, like, very concrete tools that I learned. I also am really grateful that therapy became something that is normal for me and that I've been able to go back to at different points in my life, including now. And I think that when you leave a controlled environment like that, there's new and different things that come up. And I want to be really clear. I love my life. I'm happier now than I have been in a very long time. I have the most supportive partner. I have the best colleagues. I have a get to job, not a have to job. I am afforded the privilege of going out and riding horses in the hills. And I can call both of my parents, which is something that so many people aren't able to do. And some days I still struggle. And so while I feel like I have the tools and I have the ability and I can put one foot in front of the other more days than I don't, I think it's okay to say, like, in three or four, I might have. You know what I mean?

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

I just don't feel like this. This isn't an After School special, and I want to be able to hopefully help someone who feels that they've gone. Because. Because the thing that I told myself, I struggled again my sophomore year of high or college.

[Tay]

Okay.

[Malika Andrews]

I. I got out of boarding school, got into college, went to college, started to struggle a little bit my sophomore year. And the thing that I told myself is, you can't. Oh, gosh, you can't be doing this again. We've already. We've already put in the work. We've already got there. We're already good. And you're doing this again. Again. And not being so hard on yourself. If there is an again, if there is a new finding of something new that you need to work on. Because I was so petrified that needing to work on something meant I was going to have to go away again. And that was not the case. It just looked a little bit different. So it wasn't like leave boarding school, like shut the door, fresh prints, style. And then like you're done. It was, it was like a little messy. Because this is a, I've said before, depression, anxiety, sadness. It's a shape shifting monster that could show up in all different ways. And you just have to be open to and honest with yourself when it does. And other people that are in your circle. And I think that that's how you move forward kind of together.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I love that outlook of yours. And I saw you talk about that and refer to it as that, that like it's not like a before and after. Like this, that's the old me, this is the new me thing. It's not that black and white. Like it's. You know, some days I can be like this, but then it can hit me a different way tomorrow.

[Malika Andrews]

Right? Yeah.

[Unknown]

And you know, it's a constant evolving thing that's being human.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah, right.

[Unknown]

Yeah. That you're probably for the rest of your life gonna have to figure out.

[Malika Andrews]

I was reading a book recently, really, really good book. The Sun Does Shine by Anthony Ray Hinton. He was a completely innocent inmate on death row for 30 years. Insane, crazy, maddening story. His autobiography, and just insane. But his attorney was a man named Bryan Stevenson. There's a movie, a book, just Mercy on Brian. And Brian has this quote. No person is made up of the worst thing they've ever been or done. And I really, truly, whatever that thing is, I really, truly believe that. I do not believe that any person is the worst thing they've ever done. The darkest time in their life. Everybody deserves the opportunity to say I'm sorry. Whether that is to yourself or someone else, say, I'm not okay, I need help and would you please assist me in moving forward? Everybody deserves that opportunity. And then once you get that light, you get to be it for other people. And that is the biggest and greatest and I think most important gift that I get to have because I just so happen to have this platform. There's like a million people who have this journey. I and we, in a lot of ways, like mental health struggles aren't special. People are remarkable. What people overcome and do is over is remarkable. But I think finding that commonality, like I hope there's someone listening Right now who's like, yeah, I've been through all that and I'm doing all this. Or I empathize with this part of that part, because I'm very nervous, by the way, like, doing this whole, like, talk still, like, talking about it now. Like, I'm definitely sweating. But I just think that, that, that vulnerability and honesty is the best I got and the best that we can all do, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tay]

I mean, I think we're so thankful for people like you that share your story because, I mean, you're the. Your story is one of the first. Like, we haven't had someone with your story. I mean, we've never heard, you know, people have some similar stories, but we've never had someone like you, like your story on our podcast. So I'm thankful for you for sharing your story and for opening up. And I just love the whole shape shifting thing. And I've recently had to, like, learn because, you know, anxiety, depression, all of these things. Feeling numb. Like, I went through it. I struggled with PTSD really bad. Went to therapy, got through it, and I got better. And then when those little things start to creep in, I remember the first time I, like, couldn't get out of bed one day. I was like, oh. Like, I started panicking, like, oh, my gosh, is this, like, really gonna come back again?

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah.

[Tay]

And I've had to learn. And I continually remind myself, it is gonna happen again. But I'm equipped now, and I know the tools that I could use to help me get through it better. And that's kind of the way we have to look at it. Like, it's not going away. Life. Life is gonna life. And, yeah, we gotta just get through it. It's gonna. Life is lifing.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tay]

But knowing, hey, I actually got through it. I survived and I got through this, and I learned how to get through it. And just knowing that that's okay and it's gonna. It's gonna come up, and when it does, like, I have those tools and I'm equipped to get through it.

[Malika Andrews]

Totally. And by the way, when you're having those days and you know, deep down, I have the tools to do it. I am worthy. I deserve to be bullish in my belief in myself. It's okay to put those tools off an hour.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

You know what I mean? Like, I think that we're all so conditioned to spring into action.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

Which is good and important and keeps us from the scariest parts of our own minds.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

But if you need that hour in Bed.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

That's all right.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

You don't have to immediately jump to, what's wrong? Nothing. Let me fix it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

It's okay to sit in what's wrong for a little bit.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

Because when you. When. When you know what's wrong and when you feel that you have a greater appreciation for the right and the good.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

Because sometimes. Sometimes we all just need a little. Little hour of that pity party. Like, it's okay to have that feel. Yeah.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I mean, because as soon as you stop feeling, that's when you become numb.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And as soon as you, you know, start viewing it and treating it as a what's wrong with me? That's like when you.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

That's the numbness, and that's the, you know, probably the dissociating and everything.

[Malika Andrews]

How would you treat your best friend? Yeah, right. Like some. We are so much kinder oftentimes to strangers than we are to ourselves. If your best friend called you and said, I'm in bed, and I really just am not feeling good, and I don't know what to do.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

Take your time. Call me back if you need me. I'll be over in a couple of hours to check on you. But it's that couple of. You know what I mean? Like, how. How would you treat somebody else? Because we're so. Oftentimes we have so much more patience for other people than we do for ourselves. At least I feel like I do.

[Unknown]

That's so good. Because that's so true. Because if your best friend called you and said that you wouldn't. Your response wouldn't be, well, use your tools.

[Malika Andrews]

Right.

[Tay]

Get out of bed.

[Malika Andrews]

Use those tools.

[Unknown]

You say it's okay. You're allowed to feel that way. You know, cry like it's important. You'll get through this. But you won't say that to yourself immediately.

[Malika Andrews]

No. I said this to someone the other. The other day. I'm trying to remember who. You know that phrase, treat others the way you want to be treated?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

Sometimes you have to treat yourself the way that you would treat others. Oh, my gosh. Because.

[Tay]

So true.

[Malika Andrews]

We're so. We're so conditioned to be the hardest on ourselves.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

It's okay to forgive yourself. It's okay to hear this, Malika. It's okay to show up imperfectly. You still showed up.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. You're challenging Mel Robbins for some wisdom right now.

[Malika Andrews]

I'm sitting up a little straighter.

[Unknown]

Mel, watch out.

[Malika Andrews]

Oh, I get the glasses. Next. Is that the next. Is that the Next level. I'm really excited.

[Unknown]

Oh, man, the glasses.

[Malika Andrews]

That's so good.

[Tay]

Do you have anything else you want to touch on?

[Unknown]

No. I mean, no, I just. Yeah. I think you. You sharing your story is so cool, and I can certainly relate to it because I. For so many years, especially the height of when I was in the spotlight, I thought that I had to be perfect. And anything that was. I viewed as wrong or whatever in my life, I did not want anybody to know about that. And only recently in the last few years did I feel like it was okay to start talking about those things. And I know it's, you know, somewhat of a new thing for you to be openly talking about it. And I can relate to it, like, making you feel, like, sweaty and, like, it's tough.

[Malika Andrews]

It's just, you know, you're start giving out, like, little, like, dove deodorants or something as people walk out of here. That's got to be. So you were known, and people would come up to you, I'm sure, and not even know your name, but know you as a character that you played.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

I feel like that has to be such a. That has to be such a different experience, like, what's projected onto you.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

And not even give it. Give. Getting the space to, like, be yourself, you kind of become a character, I imagine. Yeah. I.

[Unknown]

It's bizarre. It's bizarre, for sure.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah. That's. I can't. I can't imagine.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Maybe that's where, like, the needing to, you know, be perfect is coming from. Because people don't view you as a human. They view you as this, like, character that they love, and you're like, well, I want to live up to that. I don't want to disappoint them. They already are surprised that I'm shorter in person.

[Malika Andrews]

Like, you know, people are surprised I'm taller in person. See, it's.

[Unknown]

Right. We all got it.

[Malika Andrews]

No, it's. Yeah, I don't. I think that's part of it. I think that I decided at some point, probably when I joined my school paper in college, I think I made the decision. I was. My story was. I don't even want to like, my story. My story. It's just me. It's not even. You know, I think I say my story. It's. It's. It's just. It's just me. It's just my walk. It's just my. My walk through life. But my walk was so. Wow. That's exceptionally different that I wanted to channel that into something that I felt like could be accepted as opposed to being like, this anomaly for that walk. I sort of poured everything into the work that I do. And I fell in love so quick. I was always a writer. Diaries and all of these different things. But that's what made me. I always loved sports, I always loved exercise. But people's stories and knowing my story. Here I go again with the story. But, like, knowing that's where I wanted to be able to do people justice in the way that their story entered the world. And, you know, I'm human. It's all sort of everything. But I think that that's part of where it came from for me is wanting to be able to. I have. Everyone has a story. I want to be someone that helps people tell theirs. And that sort of gave me this drive, because after Dante, the next thing I poured into was this. This work. And I think that that's probably a lot of where it came from.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

Was that.

[Unknown]

Well, you're pretty dang good at it. And I'm actually. My last question is. I'm curious because just being just like, you know, as somebody who watches you and is a fan of you, you. I find it so crazy that you just turned 30 years old and you are. What feels like like you're. You're the pinnacle. Like you are. You were just like, crush it so much. How do you. Like, I don't know. Not how do you keep yourself hungry? But, like, what's your. What's your goal to, like, where do you go from here?

[Malika Andrews]

I have had many. You know, it's funny is that every time I went from school, University of Portland to the New York Times, and I told myself how, again, worried about. I care entirely too much what other people think of me. And I worried about, you know, once they told me that I was there as an intern, I stayed on for an extended amount of time. And once they told me that I wouldn't be staying, I worried, one, what would people think? And two, this is all I've ever wanted was to work at the New York Times, the paper of record. How can I do better than that? How can I find more credibility and better reporting and better writers than the paper of record? And I went to the Chicago Tribune from there and found one of the. The best basketball beat writers in the country. And I worked with him, and I found that there. And then once I left newspapers, I worried again, going back to my insecurities working in television and all of this different stuff now that my words aren't walking in. Before I do. Is that something that I'm going to be okay with and how will I be judged? And then I ended up at ESPN and I became, you know, you see the, like, youngest sideline reporter to ever host the NBA Finals and the first woman in, like, the 80 year history of the draft to host the NBA draft. And what I found is I'm a planner. I am. I sit down and I write out my goals for 2025. And I'm very intentional with my time and what I am moving towards and what I hope for and what's within my control and what's not. But I think once I started just to worry a little bit less about how about perception and just focus in on, well, what's a good story? How do I make people laugh? How do I leave people with the emotion that I felt when I first heard from this person or that person and stopped maybe putting so much pressure on what's the next thing? It all started to work. I think that once you, you know, the game respects game, you put into it what you get out of it. And trusting hard work, I think is something that I am not conditioned to do. I don't think that a lot of women are conditioned to feel like I put in the work and therefore I've earned it and good will happen. I'm trying to trust that just a little bit more because truly, I've never been more at peace than I am right now. And I think that part of that's my very ripe age. But I think most of that is just trusting that process of putting sort of one foot in front of the other. I still have my goals on my piece of paper, but I think you need to allow yourself the freedom to dance and not just to rigidly march toward them.

[Tay]

Yeah, I needed to hear that part too, because I have goals. I have goals on my list that I didn't, like, hit last year. And part of me was like, like, what? They're gonna sound so silly.

[Malika Andrews]

No, no, there's no.

[Tay]

They're just like big, absurd. Like, big, absurd things.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah.

[Tay]

And I was a little bummed that a couple of them didn't happen. And Taylor was like, why, like, you accomplished so much this year? Like, don't get stuck on.

[Unknown]

Like, she knew when writing them down. Yeah, she knew. I'm gonna write down, like, the little things. I'm gonna write down ones that, you know, will take some work I can definitely achieve, and then I'm gonna dream. I'm gonna put, you know, some stuff down here that it's Shooting for the star. Absolutely on there. When she was writing the list, she knew that. But then when the year's over, in a couple of those, even though she hit 95% of them, you know, there was two.

[Malika Andrews]

But isn't that funny how we focus on what we didn't do versus all the things that we did achieve, achieve or accomplish.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

And you have to be hungry. Like, that's what makes. Ambition is good. Ambition is fuel. But you can be ambitious and kind to yourself.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tay]

Yeah. That's why you marry someone that reminds.

[Unknown]

You of your accomplishments.

[Tay]

Because when I feel that Taylor is like, no, you did this, you did that. Oh, I forgot I did that.

[Malika Andrews]

Yes.

[Tay]

Like, this, this. This one.

[Unknown]

Look at the list.

[Malika Andrews]

That is a height literally hit you also. So you have to check off the things that you did on the list. And sometimes you put things on the list that you're like, I know I'm gonna get these. Just, like, to give yourself a little starter.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

When I make a to do list, sometimes I put things on that I'm, like, just finished those.

[Tay]

Literally. Even if I already did them and I'm making the list after. Like, if I, like, do my whole little morning routine on wash the dishes, do this, I'll still add it to my list. Just to, like, check it out. I gotta feel. I gotta feel the little motivation.

[Malika Andrews]

Yeah. Because it's a building block. It makes you go to the next thing on the list. Check it off, check it off. Boom, boom, boom.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tay]

Oh, I love a list. Okay, last question, and then we'll let you go. I'm curious. If you could go back to one moment in your life, what moment would that be? And what would you say to yourself?

[Malika Andrews]

That's a very good question. There was a time in which I would have told you that I wanted to go back to the day I called my mom and asked for help so that I could have had a normal childhood. And there was a time in which I would have told you, I want to go back to this time, that I was unkind to someone else in my industry and felt like I made things more difficult as opposed to easier. Or the time I, like, threw something at my mom, which, sorry, Mom, I definitely regret that. But. And maybe it's just because I have more peace than I've ever had. I don't think I would go back to any of them, because I don't think that you can enjoy mountaintops when you haven't dug out of valleys. And I've dug out of a lot of alleys gonna create a lot more. And I think that being okay with making those mistakes, those. Some of them are mistakes. Some of them are oopsies. Some of them are, I could do better next times. I wouldn't be who I am without both. Some of the best lessons I've learned the hard way. I've become a kinder, more generous, better listening, better friend, better colleague, better reporter because of the times that I've tripped and because of the people that have caught me so that I'm better equipped to catch other people and to catch myself. So I'm running through a laundry list of oopsies right now, and there's some, like, I don't. I don't. I. There's a lot of I'm sorrys I wish I got to quicker.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Malika Andrews]

But I don't know that I would fully take those back. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Getting to know you over the last hour, as soon as you asked that question.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I knew that was exactly what you were gonna say.

[Tay]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And it just. Yeah, it makes a. It makes a lot of sense, and I think it's an important reminder to all of us. And. Yeah. I just. Thank you for sharing your story, and it's an honor to be sitting here with you today.

[Malika Andrews]

Well, thank you. I appreciate you guys making the time and having me. And now we can have queso.

[Unknown]

Queso. And game nights.

[Malika Andrews]

Sam.