B (2:41)

If you struggle with conflict boundaries or feel stuck repeating unhealthy dynamics and are ready for real change, then this conversation is for you. We've both learned so much about how attachment styles impact relationship dynamics, how they literally have impacted our relationship directly, and we can't wait to dive into it with Thais in the special bonus episode.

C (3:06)

I know we've talked about attachment styles before on the podcast and in life, but this episode specifically, we're really diving into it. But what I feel like I learned the most about my attachment style is the that one. I'm now definitely a secure attachment because I think we've both done a lot of work and we're in a healthy, open, honest.

B (3:27)

Can you go through the attachment styles?

C (3:29)

That's for the episode.

B (3:30)

Okay.

C (3:30)

I can't give those away.

B (3:31)

Okay, then. Is secure what you thought you were?

C (3:35)

No. Well, secure is what I feel like I am now, but because I'm in a healthy place. But hearing the other three attachment styles, I thought I was one, which I get into in the episode, but I really am anxious. I thought I was anxious, but I'm not.

B (3:52)

Right.

C (3:52)

Which was really insightful.

B (3:55)

I think the biggest thing that we learned is can't, like, the unhealthy side of yourself be one attachment style and the healthy version of yourself be another?

C (4:04)

For sure.

A (4:04)

I think you have to do a.

C (4:05)

Lot of work to get too secure. But I think when hard times come up and things get bumpy, you kind of resort back to what that, yeah, negative attachment style is. But it's really eye opening because Tyce gives a lot of ways to actually heal from those and become secure in your attachment style.

B (4:23)

So is secure, like the end all be all?

A (4:26)

Does that mean you want to be secure?

B (4:27)

So you're, like, above us?

C (4:29)

You're secure too, honey.

B (4:30)

I am?

C (4:30)

I think so.

B (4:31)

Oh, okay, great.

C (4:34)

Guess you'll have to take the quiz to find out.

A (4:36)

Yes.

C (4:37)

Thais, welcome to the Squeeze.

A (4:39)

Thank you for having me. Excited to be here with you.

C (4:41)

This is very exciting because I feel like we've kind of touched on attachment styles throughout the seasons, but we've never really, like, done a full, deep dive into it and everything. So I'm really excited to do this just, like, selfishly, because I love learning about all of these things. But for our listeners, can you give us a little background on your history and what got you so excited to kind of, like, dive into this Specific type of work?

A (5:11)

Line of work. Yeah, yeah. So I basically was always really interested in people and like, I love meeting people and talking to people and connecting with people. And I went through a lot of just chaos in my own childhood, honestly, and so went through a lot of like, wondering why people do what they do and why things were so difficult. And coming out of my own childhood, I was insecurely attached to myself. Okay, I was a fearful avoidance. I was a very hot and cold one. And we'll get into all the types for the listeners, but I think I just sort of grew up being like, why are relationships so difficult? Why is it so hard for me to be in a healthy relationship? And always felt like I was scared of getting married or having kids or all these things that I just sort of had this resistance to. And so I went through my own healing journey at a pretty young age. And one of the big things that kicked it off is that I was going through a lot of different struggles with addiction, all kinds of different things as a teenager. And I heard somebody say, your conscious mind cannot outwill or overpower your subconscious mind.

C (6:06)

Oh, whoa.

A (6:06)

And I was like, oh. So like that means all of those times where I say I'm going to change or I'm going to do something differently, and then I don't. That's because my conscious mind is intending one thing and my subconscious mind has different motives and different conditioning. So when I heard that, I think I was in a place in my life where I had all of this internal self judgment. I was like very mean to myself in my internal dialogue and always critical. And if I made a mistake or didn't follow through on something, I would give myself a really hard time and really beat myself up for it. And then hearing that was almost like relieving, like to recognize that, oh, well, then it's not that I'm like weak or not good enough or not capable. It's that like, I. I just don't understand how my subconscious mind is working. And so I went on this quest to learn about it and learned that 95% of all of our beliefs, our thoughts, our emotions, our actions on a daily basis are literally coming from your subconscious mind. And your subconscious mind is like your habituated self.

C (6:57)

Yeah.

A (6:58)

Whereas your conscious mind is your logical, analytical, thinking self. And so I went through thinking like, okay, so how do I understand what's going on in there and how to change it and how to rewire things that are not working for me? And it was so profoundly like life changing. For me to understand how neuroplasticity works and the neuroscience of how you can actually change your brain and change your patterns. Because a lot of really hard things going on internally.

C (7:20)

Yeah.

A (7:21)

And I was so amazed at like, I guess my own results in my life. Yeah. That at just before I turned 21 years old, I started being like, I'm going to teach about this for free. And I would go and I would like, go to little spaces or later on, like library spaces and things like that and rent them and just have people come and give free workshops. And funnily enough, that caused all these people after these workshops to be like, oh, do you see clients? And I was like, I'm still in school. I'm still doing certifications. I did a whole bunch of certifications in like, hypnotherapy and neuro linguistic programming and cognitive behavioral therapy and somatic experiencing, like, nervous system regulation work. And I was trying to like, compile all these things and where they intersect. Yeah. And I was still in school at the time too. And people were like, we don't care. We'll see you as a. Like, come see us as clients. Anyways, we liked your workshop. So I sort of accidentally started a private practice at a young age because I just was so passionate about it and then quickly had a very long wait list of like two years. And people were getting frustrated. Rightfully so. Like two year wait list. It's not very nice.

C (8:21)

Yeah.

A (8:22)

And so I was like, well, package content and put it online and I'll teach it in little classes and I'll do weekend workshops where people can come in and sort of groups. And that caused us to then have a YouTube channel by accident. And everything just kind of unfolded from there. And then obviously we were like, well, how do we make this into something more accessible to people? And that's how we went down the route of creating the personal development space School.

C (8:42)

Oh my gosh. That is. That's kind of crazy. I love hearing when people that get into this space, like, as a professional, really it was something that they personally went through. And I feel like it just fuels you differently. Like, kind of gives you like, purpose behind your work. Like knowing that you went through all of that in your life before, it's probably just so rewarding to thank you. Get to see people's lives change.

A (9:09)

Thank you. Yeah. And I think, like, I just never get tired of it. Like, I. I literally love it so much. And yeah, I love meeting people and sharing and teaching and like watching people change and go through the Transformation. And I think it hits home because I, like, know what it was like to be on the. The other side of that myself. So.

C (9:22)

Yeah. Okay, so tell us a little bit about this personal development school. And then maybe we should just like, get into exactly what attachment styles are and you can kind of share with us the different ones.

A (9:34)

Yeah. So the personal development school is basically a whole bunch of online courses. So I wrote 60 different courses for different areas of people's lives. So things that they're facing, whether it's like boundary issues or communication issues, but it's all addressing the subconscious mind. So instead of just understanding information, it's like, well, how do you rewire? How does neuroplasticity work? How do you actually get the same results that you would get in hypnotherapy, for example, without ever having to be hypnotized? Yeah. And so it's all designed for that purpose, but where we really situated and focused on, because that's what the market was like asking us for the most, was how do you rewire your attachment style? So a lot of people ended up coming in with relationship patterns. And it's interesting because I actually worked with clients for quite a few years before even revisiting attachment styles. Actually revisited attachment styles. When I met my husband and we started living together and I felt like everything was great at first. And then when we moved in together, I was like, oh, like we're having these kind of blips in communication and things are changing. And yeah, he had done a good bit of work on himself and, like, spent some time figuring himself out. And I had done a lot of work on myself already at that point.

C (10:34)

Yeah.

A (10:34)

But I still had my own remnants of fearful, avoidant attachment style. And I realized that, like, sometimes I still wasn't communicating my needs or setting boundaries or speaking up, and I would retreat or be hot and cold still. And so I revisited it, and it was interesting because at the time I had been working with clients on rewiring their triggers and relationships. So some people fearing abandonment or betrayal or being trapped or engulfed, and I would help people rewire those things so they didn't have to chronically fear those things. And I would help people learn their needs, and I would help people regulate their nervous system so they felt more like calm and grounded all the time and improve their window of tolerance and all these things. And when I revisited attachment styles, I had learned about attachment theory in first year university psychology class. And you learn about it at such a high level. And the original body of work Is so amazing because it really talks about, okay, your attachment style is basically this set of rules that you learn about how to give and receive love, but it doesn't tell you anything about how to rewire it. It's like, here's your attachment style.

C (11:33)

Good luck.

A (11:34)

And for me, I almost think sometimes labeling things, it's helpful for context, for sure. But sometimes people over identify with the label and then they're like, I just am this. And it almost becomes problematic saying things like, oh, I'm anxiously attached, or I'm dismissive, avoided. And almost as if it's like an excuse, like, okay, then I can just be this way. And I understand, like, it's not anybody's fault. I was the probably craziest insecure attachment style there is out of the three of them. But it's also our responsibility. And I think that what I felt was so incomplete is like, okay, there's this body of work and it tells people these things and they have these patterns. But like, the whole point of understanding your patterns is so that you can change them.

C (12:13)

Yeah.

A (12:13)

And so I got really focused in on when I learned about people's attachment styles. These things I was already working on with them, like their wounds and fears and relationships and the things that trigger them and their needs and their nervous system and how panicked they feel. All of those things are very solvable problems. And I realized when I revisited attachment theory, if I knew somebody's attachment style, they would actually each fit into these specific buckets. So, for example, anxious attachment styles, and we'll get into them in a second. But they had very specific wounds. They would fear being abandoned, alone, excluded, disliked, rejected. Whereas, for example, a dismissive avoidant would fear being trapped or engulfed or unsafe in a conflict or weak if they were vulnerable. And so people had different triggers. And so when I actually learned about people's attachment cells, and I'll go through the profile of them, it was like, oh, well, here's exactly the profile. And then I knew exactly what to change more quickly. Ye it gave me this sort of insight into, okay, well, here's the depths of, like, your personality and characteristics and patterns. Now let's talk about the neuroscience of how to change your attachment style. So that's sort of what our school became focused around in the end, because that's what most people were looking for. So that's a personal development school. And then for the other part of your question, there are four attachment styles. And I'm sure you probably know this, but for your listeners, the first one is the Securely attached style. So securely attached individuals make up roughly 50% of the population. Very interesting. Interestingly, it goes in lockstep with the divorce rate. So it's really interesting, not only the divorce rate is roughly 50, but as the secure attachment cells are sort of on the decline a little bit over the last couple of decades, the divorce rate is on the incline. So they're moving right in lockstep with one another. And securely attached people, they report not just having the longest lasting relationships, but also being the most fulfilled in their relationships. And I feel like you need both. Like both are really important.

C (14:06)

Yeah.

A (14:07)

So that's the first part. So that's your securely attached style.

C (14:09)

Yeah.

A (14:10)

Then how a securely attached individual sort of forms, if you will, is in childhood they get a lot of what we call approach oriented behaviors in psychology. And it sounds like a small thing, but it has a huge impact. So what this means is that children in secure homes, they grew up with parents who are really attuned to them. So they notice when they're feeling emotionally off, they notice if the child is stressed or sad, and they pick up on this and they're able to move towards the child to try to suit them and make sure they feel better.

C (14:39)

Yeah.

A (14:39)

And what that actually conditions a child to believe about themselves is like, oh, I'm worthy on my good and bad days, my emotions are safe to express. I can be open, I can be vulnerable, and that's a safe thing. I can trust and rely on other people to be there for me. And I'm worthy of love just as I am. I don't have to be performing or achieving for it. I can be distressed and still have love.

C (15:00)

Yeah.

A (15:00)

And so it actually teaches a child that like, oh, relationships are safe. I can lean in, I can lean on people. And because that's modeled to them, they learn how to do that too. Yeah. And so securely attached people grow up with all these really adaptive coping strategies when it comes to love and connection. And that is what allows them to then have these really healthy relationships long term.

C (15:17)

Yeah.

A (15:17)

So. So that's 50% of people. Okay. Then you have three insecurely attached styles. And I like to think of them in a way as existing along a continuum. So basically at one end of the continuum is the anxious attachment style. And so anxious attachment styles, they end up in situations where they have a lot of either real or perceived abandonment. So real abandonment is the really obvious stuff. Like God forbid a parent passes away when a child is young or they have a parent who leaves at a young age. And just never really returns or comes back. But then what's really interesting about how our wiring works is our neural pathways are built through repetition and emotion. So somebody could have this really acute experience of losing a parent. But also, if there's a lot of inconsistency repeatedly enough, it fires and wires a similar output as real abandonment over time. And so what you have is a lot of children who have perceived abandonment, which is usually in the context of things like you have really loving parents, but maybe they're working all the time. And it's like you're constantly left with the grandparents or things like that in your childhood. And so what a child is feeling is, oh, love is really good when it's here, but it always feels like it's being taken away. And so that perceived abandonment through repetition across time causes this individual to be like, oh, love is always gonna be taken away. And they're always bracing for it. And so they cope with this by trying to people please, trying to win people back over and be good enough and fit in. And this causes somebody in their adult life to have these big wounds around being not good enough, being abandoned, being alone, fear of being rejected, disliked. And we found this in our body of work through what we call integrated attachment theory, which this sort of deeper neuroscience of all of this. And so they end up as adults feeling very anxious in their relationships, kind of fearing that somebody will pull away from them or change their mind. And they're sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop in that way. And then they cope with this by sometimes self abandoning further. Cause they're trying to win people over. But like, if you're so preoccupied with other people's opinions of you, you kind of forget about yourself, right? And so there's that sort of subtle self abandonment that happens. And a lot of times they are dysregulated. Their nervous system's a little bit flighty because of course they're constantly bracing and scanning for those things and a lot of their needs in relationships, and we found this from integrated attachment theory, are to feel wanted and prioritize and to have certainty and to feel like they're loved and they have closeness and they're constantly trying to activate or cling to people around them. So of course, like, everything exists along a continuum, right? You can have somebody who's a little bit anxiously attached, but then you can have people who are extremely anxiously attached and they can become really needy, really clingy in relationships. And of course they're like, usually the most lovely, charming, sweet People, but a lot of times they cling because they're so scared of losing somebody. And the very clinging itself often accidentally pushes other people away. And so a lot of them go through these like self fulfilling prophecies of having those cycles move through things over and over again. And I feel like everybody kind of knows somebody who's anxiously attached in their life. Or maybe it's a family member, friend or things like that. No, I'm waiting to hear the other.

C (18:19)

Ones to tell you what I am and what I think my husband is.

A (18:24)

Amazing. And so, so that's the anxious. And then on sort of the other end of the continuum in a way, and it's not quite like this, but in a sense it is. So is the dismissive avoidance. So dismissive avoidance in a lot of ways are kind of the opposite of the anxious attachment style and dismissive avoidance. They go through childhood emotional neglect as their like, dominant theme of their childhood. And a lot of people hear emotional neglect and they think like the kids are Left alone at 3 years old for the whole evening. Like, it doesn't have to be so overt and extreme. Yeah, a lot of times, of course, you can have this really overt, obvious emotional neglect that's really extreme. But the vast majority of the time when it's a dismissive avoidant, it's much more covert. It's sort of like fly under the radar. And so what this would look like in somebody's childhood is that they are in a family where the parents might have a lot of stability and structure. Like, food's on the table, kids are at school on time, but the parents are completely unattuned to the child. So they are not noticing when the child's distressed or they're not making space or time for it. And the child, if they are distressed, they're basically taught, like, your emotions are yours to deal with. Go figure it out. You hear themes like children should be seen and not heard, or things like, oh, don't be a crybaby, get over it. Or like, oh my gosh, don't cry in front of people, go back into the other room and come back when you've got it together. And all of this messaging causes this child to be like, oh, this part of me is not acceptable. And because in behavioral stages of development for children, what you'll actually see is that children personalize everything. When they're young, they don't know how to differentiate. So you don't have a child who has the wisdom or awareness yet to be like, oh my Parents are emotionally unavailable, and they should be attuned. Like, children don't know that. So they personalize it and they go, this part of me, this vulnerable emotional part of me is not acceptable. It's not okay. And so I have to reject it, and I have to push it away and I have to shut it down. And so they basically reject their own emotions.

C (20:15)

And.

A (20:15)

And they actually end up having this big core wound. From an integrated attachment theory point of view of fearing being defective, they're like, oh, if people see me deep down and see my emotions, they're gonna think I'm weak. They're gonna think that I'm shameful or defective. And they kind of feel like deep down they're kind of broken and they actually have a lot of insecurity. But at face value, they work so hard to not show their emotions that, like, on the outside, they're very stoic and you often won't even know.

C (20:38)

Yeah.

A (20:38)

And so their biggest core wounds and fears in relationships are being defective, weak, trapped. They need a lot of space and independence. They fear being helpless. They do believe they're not good enough, and they feel really unsafe in a conflict. So a lot of times you'll see dismissive avoidance. They don't act like they're afraid, but they like. Like, get out of here. Like, I don't want to have to deal with the conflict of my own emotions, let alone somebody else's. And they. They just sort of shut down as their coping mechanism because that's all they really know how to do.

C (21:06)

Yeah.

A (21:07)

And in their childhood, that's what gave them a sense of control. So if they could just shut down and choose not to need somebody, because obviously if they grow up with neglect, they're trying to need. Children are wired for attunement, and it keeps getting rejected. So their strategy that created relief was like, let me learn to not need anybody. Let me learn to be hyper independent. And at least that gives me a sense of control and relief from this just, like, ongoing rejection. And so they adapt to that by being like, okay, I'm going to be really independent. And then as adults, you end up seeing that they not only have those core wounds and triggers we talked about, but a lot of their behaviors are to create distance. So what you'll see is, like, anxious attachment styles. They're constantly trying to create proximity and closeness and dismissal avoidants are constantly trying to minimize their attachment needs. They're, like, trying to prove to themselves they don't need people, and they actually do that and convince themselves of it. And in doing that, they get this sense of relief again, okay, I'm okay, I'm safe. I don't need somebody if they do hurt me or they can't be there for me, I'm fine without them. And a lot of their inner world is trying to convince themselves of that. And so as adults, you can see them end up in healthy relationships sometimes, or at least like enter into a relationship where if somebody else is really healthy, it can work, but also it's not what it could be if somebody's securely attached. Right? And a lot of times, even if they enter into long lasting relationships, there can be some turbulence or difficulty and dismissive avoidance. More often than not, don't even get into long lasting relationships. They're often the ones that before a real big commitment, they'll sort of get out of there or run or sometimes have these like year long or two year long relationships over and over again. But then as soon as things get too real, they try to get out of there. A lot of times they even have this initial pullback period around the four to six month mark of dating. But the real pullback is usually in the power struggle stage a little bit later on. So you'll see a lot of these themes. For the dismissive avoidant and I guess to make it really practical too, for an anxious attachment style, the type of responses you'd see to them texting. They'll text, text, text, right? Though, like if somebody doesn't text them back, they'll feel the panic in their body. They'll get really stressed and text more and call more. If somebody doesn't text back a dismissive avoidant, they're like, nice, don't have to talk, this is fine. And they're very independent that way. And how they both handle conflict too is like in a conflict, the anxious attachment cell wants to resolve things immediately, like right now. And a dismissive avoidant is like, no, let's talk about this in three days. Like they want to let it. They really want to talk about it. Never. But they will need some space and time to sort of deal with it. So those are those opposite ends. And then there's a last attachment style. Unless you want to dive into anything first.

C (23:43)

No, no, no, no, keep going.

A (23:44)

Okay, okay. So the very last one is the fearful avoidant attachment.

C (23:47)

I'm so excited. Like, no, keep going.

A (23:49)

So the fearful avoidant is sometimes referred to as the disorganized attachment style, but we'll call it fearful avoidant, the most common name for it. And the Fearful avoidant. Their overarching theme in childhood is chaos. So whereas an anxious attachment cell was like, okay, you know, real or perceived abandonment, dismissive wobb and neglect, the fearful witness, like, you never know what you're getting in your home.

C (24:09)

Yeah.

A (24:09)

And so what you'll see, for example, or sort of as different analogies, could be a parent who's in active addiction, parents who are alcoholics, a parent with narcissistic personality disorder or mental health issues. And it's like, you never know what version of them you're gonna get. So you can imagine, for example, that the mother's an alcoholic. And let's say mom comes home one day and she's had a few drinks and she's in a good mood and she's really loving, and the child's like, oh my gosh, love is safe. Love feels so nice. I feel so connected to mom. And then other days, mom's had a lot to drink and she's angry, drunk, and she's cruel and she's scary and she's really mean. And you're like, oh my gosh, like, I need to get away from this. Love is terrifying. Love is, is painful. And then another day, mom's detoxing and she's not doing so well. And you're like, cause mom gonna be okay. And you're worried and you're distressed. Maybe another day mom's been sober for a little bit and she's in a good period and she's apologetic and sweet and you're like, oh, mom's nice today. And. And so a child doesn't know what version of a parent they're getting. Same thing if you had a narcissist as a parent. Right. Like one day they're love bombing. One day they're really mean and cruel and it's like you just don't know.

C (25:12)

Yeah.

A (25:12)

So as the anxious attachment style, their strategy is to maintain closeness and keep it in closer and proximity. The dismissive avoidance, like, keep distance. The fearful avoidance attachment strategy is basically to become hyper vigilant. They learn to think three steps ahead. They're always on. They really notice any little change in micro expressions, body language, tone of voice. I spoke to somebody not too long ago and they were like, oh my gosh, when my mom would come home, by the way the door closed, I knew what version of mom I was getting from upstairs in my room. And I knew to either shut the door or leave it open. And like, it's like you learn to hyper attune to all of these little Signals because you can't really trust your environment and you're always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

C (25:52)

Yeah.

A (25:53)

And what's really interesting for fearful avoidance is they get these really mixed signals about different things. And actually a lot of people get their attachment style mixed up. A lot of people think that they're anxious, who are fearful avoidant or think that they're dismissive or fearful avoidant because you kind of see these themes. But fearful avoidance, they're very hot. So they have moments of those anxious attachment dynamics where they're like scared of abandonment and scared of being alone and they have those wounds. But they also can go really cold and they can be really like shut down and pull away. And you know, I almost think like dismissive avoidance, pull away and fearful avoidance, push away. They're like, get back. And so, you know, fearful avoidance as adults, they become the very hot and cold partners. They flip flop a lot in their mind. They're like, should I stay? Should I leave? Is this the right thing or is it the wrong thing?

C (26:38)

Yeah.

A (26:39)

And honestly, a lot of the times they're like the roller coaster partners. Right. They're the ones that are like picking fights or you know, don't really know how to deal with calm. Cause their nervous system is so used to chaos. And when things are calm, they're like, wait, is this when I was a fearful avoidant? I remember being in a relationship for a period of time and we hadn't had an argument in a while and I remember being like, does he even love me? Why isn't he like arguing with me? Where's the passion? Like, you conflate a lot of time, the chaos to connection because that's what love and connection was for you in your childhood. And so, you know, fearful avoidance as adults, they're really all in and then they suddenly pull away and they give a lot of mixed signals to people and they can be really confusing partners to be on the other end of the. Um. But you know, in summary, those are the, the four attachment cells. They have a huge impact on our adult relationships. But for anybody who hears themselves in this and is like, oh no, just rest assured, like it's, it's a solvable problem. You're not born with an attachment style, gets conditioned into you through repetition and emotion. And like our whole body of work and what we've studied forever is how you can change your attachment style and not even, like, it's not even that difficult to do.

C (27:46)

Yeah.

A (27:46)

For people who feel a little overwhelmed by some of it.

C (27:48)

Yeah.

A (27:49)

And the types of results that you see are like, what we see reported from people in our programs are like, people report doubling their relationship satisfaction after healing their attachment style and reducing conflict because of their triggers by 50%. So, like, these are not. I know it feels confronting for people at first, but, like, it's good to know. And then it's good to know that, like, hey, you can do something about it too.

C (28:11)

Yeah, no, that's great. I know. I was thinking of what. Because I feel like now I'm the secure attachment style. Because my husband and I were talking about it last night, and we were, like, trying to figure out what the other one was, and we were both like, just feel very secure in all of these little points that you've said. But when I look back on when we first started dating, it's so funny, because I always thought I was the anxious one, but I definitely think I'm more of the dismissive.

A (28:42)

Interesting.

C (28:42)

Yeah. Just from, like, what you just said, because I'm definitely. My husband is the one that is more clingy, but. Clingy. Like, he's the one that will always.

A (28:51)

Want to be with me.

C (28:51)

He always, like, he loves being with me 24 7. And, like, he could. We could be handcuffed together for a month, and he would. It would be the best thing for him, and I would be like, I need space. He's had to learn about me that it's not something I'm not. You know, I don't need space from him necessarily. Like, it's nothing he did wrong. It's just like, I'm. I need space 100. I need me time. I need just, like, alone.

A (29:17)

And that's what's so helpful, I think, for people to hear is because oftentimes we all, like, project love from our perception.

C (29:24)

Right.

A (29:24)

So if you're anxiously attached, you think, like, I want to be with somebody 24 7, so if they love me, they want to be with me 24 7, too. We assume people to be as we are. And so sometimes when people don't know about this in their relationships, if you were to be in a position where you, like, needed space or distance, because that's super normal, and that's how you recharge. And, like, yeah, a lot of dismissive avoidance seem to go inwards. They learn to soothe on their own.

C (29:44)

Exactly.

A (29:44)

And so when you're going through something or had a busy day, you're like, oh, let me retreat. And you kind of go into yourself. That's, like, your way that you've learned to adapt through life and your conditioning. And somebody in that situation would be like, I wouldn't need to do that. They must not like me. And then they can get personalized really badly. And so you see that in a lot of situations, but also when people are, like, aware and willing to do the work and show up and learn to work through hard conversations and, like, be open and share things, often we end up, like, healing together, which is a really beautiful thing. And what's interesting, too, that we put in our body of work. It's not in traditional attachment theory, but an integrated attachment theory, which is each attachment style generally has needs they respond the most to. So if you want to get really, like, granular with it. Yeah, anxious attachment styles, they feel the most loved when they feel wanted, prioritized when they have certainty. So if somebody cancels plans with them, that's okay, but if. But you have to say, like, but I'll see you tomorrow, or, yeah, but let's do this next week, or have some kind of certainty there.

C (30:40)

Yeah.

A (30:41)

Reassurance is really big, especially if you pull away. It's like giving somebody the reassurance that, oh, honey, I'll be back, or, you know, whatever it is, or, I really care about you. I just need time and space, especially for people who are, like, not as far along, for example, as you are in the situation. Like, people who are hearing this for the first time, having, you know, the ability to give your partner that reassurance if you're not living together yet and you're not going to see them for a couple of days, like, giving that reassurance is really huge. And then also they want to feel like they're wanted, validated, seen, understood. Like, all those things are so important. And then dismissive avoidance. A lot of their big ways that they most feel loved is when somebody, like, honors their freedom and autonomy and independence and, like, honors their need for space and. And meets it with understanding and isn't, like, shaming them for things or giving them a hard time. So that's a good baseline. But then really how they feel the most loved is when they feel accepted. So being judged is something that causes dismissive ones to want to just run away and not talk to people at all. And so acceptance is a huge thing, even if you have something. I think people hear acceptance and they think, oh, so I can't ever have an issue with something in the relationship? No, you can be like, hey, I want us to be more open and more communicative. But. But I also get where you're at and I love you anyways. And that kind of acceptance is really big for dismissive avoidance. And then also sincere forms of appreciation and acknowledgement are really big, like noticing the ways that you're trying or the ways that you showed up and also making them feel seen without being too in their business. So it's kind of this funny balance. But, hey, I noticed that this really means a lot to you. Well, let's do more of it. Like, that kind of thing goes a really long way for dismissive avoidance. It's like meaningful forms of closeness, but not too much or too engulfing in the process.

C (32:31)

Yeah.

A (32:32)

And then fearful avoidance. Their big needs in relationship, they're kind of, like, contradictory because they have both sides to them, in a sense. But, yeah, they really want to feel prioritized and, like, they're important to their partners, but they also really need their autonomy and independence and their time to do their own thing and sort of have their freedom.

C (32:49)

Yeah.

A (32:50)

And they really want, like. Like, depth of connection. They don't know how to do surface stuff very well. They want, like, ask me the real questions. Let's talk through the real things.

C (32:57)

Yeah.

A (32:58)

And they really care about passion and novelty and loyalty in relationships. Those are huge things for them. And so you'll see, like, each. People say, like, you've probably heard of the five love languages. Like, Dr. Gary Chapman's work needs go so much deeper in how we give and receive love than love languages. Because, for example, I have a big emotional depth. Depth need.

C (33:18)

Yeah.

A (33:18)

Having been a fearful avoidant in the past. And, like, we could. I could spend quality time with my husband, and we could spend five hours watching Netflix, and that's quality time, the love language. Or I could spend, like, 30 minutes having a really meaningful conversation. That's enriching. And I'm like, give me the 30 minutes all day, every day. Because emotional depth of connection is such a bigger need for me than, like, the love language of quality time is still a little more of an umbrella, if that makes sense.

C (33:44)

Yeah. Do people with certain attachment styles tend to date people with other certain attachments? Okay, I want to go.

A (33:51)

It's a really good question. I get this a lot. So it's really interesting. And it's like, the subconscious mind is so important. So your subconscious mind is that habituated self. It's all of your conditioning. It's sort of like the warehouse of all of your stuff. Right. And. And what's interesting is that your subconscious mind is running the show. So your conscious mind, like, people can relate to this in a really practical way where, like, if you've ever said a New Year's resolution and you're like, I'm gonna quit eating chocolate, or I'm gonna go to the gym every day, or you say you're gonna do things, but then you don't follow through.

C (34:19)

Yeah.

A (34:19)

I think the stat is like, 88% of people fail their New Year's resolutions in the first seven days.

C (34:23)

Oh, my gosh.

A (34:23)

And. And it's because that's a conscious intention. You can want something or yearn for something, consciously desire something, but actual habits are when things get wired into your subconscious mind. And that takes time and repetition. And we can talk about how to rewire your attachment style. And I'll give some tools if you want, but. But that. That's not like this. Oh, I decided I want this. And it just happens. And so what's really interesting is that your subconscious mind is running the show. And ultimately we're survival wired. So not only do we have a negativity bias, like, when you think of, like, the idea of those core wounds, so those triggers, like somebody feels afraid of abandonment or being alone or being trapped. These core wounds or triggers, I always give the analogy that they're like a bear in the woods. Like, if you go into the bear and you see. Or you go into the bear, you go into the woods and you see a bear and you run and you're safe from the bear, that's great. But then if you have to go back into the woods the next day, as soon as, like, the trees move, you're like, oh, my God, the bear. Right. Like, we, like, re. Project out these wounds because our subconscious is literally wired to hang on to those things and focus on them.

C (35:27)

Yeah.

A (35:28)

But interestingly enough, you know, so we have that right. Like, oh, if you felt abandoned as a child, you're always waiting for abandonment as an adult. If you felt trapped as a kid or neglected, you're like, assuming that as an adult. But what's crazy about all this is that your subconscious mind also, because it's constantly fixating and focusing on these things, tends to end up feeling like those things are most familiar. And at the end of the day, we are literally survival wired. So we associate. Familiarity equals safety equals survival. So what's wild? And this is a long answer to your question, but what's wild is that what happens a lot of the time is consciously we say, I want the emotionally available person who's ready for a good relationship. I want the good communicator. I Want, you know, the healthy person. Well, if you're not in a place where you're ready for that yourself, you're instead going to invest in what's familiar.

C (36:20)

Yeah.

A (36:21)

And what is most familiar is the way you treat yourself.

C (36:24)

Yeah.

A (36:24)

So what you'll often see is like anxiously attached individuals. A lot of times they're kind of dismissing their own feelings and needs because they're fixating on others. So they often end up being most attracted to people who are also a little dismissive of them because that's most familiar. It's how they treat themselves. Dismissive avoidance. Who are a little bit more anxiously attached to themselves. In a sense. They're like, do I have enough time to myself? When will I get time to myself? What kind of commitments do I have to have? Like, do I need to. They're really concerned or preoccupied with time to themselves to regulate. So often they end up subconsciously being attracted to people who mirror that back to them. And then fearful avoidant attachment styles. Their nervous systems are in chaos. And so a lot of the time when they're a true fearful avoidant, like really fearful avoidant, they're attracted to other chaotic people. And so other fearful avoidance and securely attached people because they're in a place where they're secure and stable and did the work. They, if somebody exhibits any of those traits that are not secure, they usually don't stick around. So they're looking for other and securely attached people. And securely attached people usually end up dating and staying in long term relationships together. Yeah.

C (37:27)

Wow, that's interesting. So how does the rewiring work? I think everyone's like, tell me how I can change.

A (37:32)

Yeah, exactly. So basically there's a few things. So the first thing is we go into five main pillars. And it'll take a long time to go through each of the pillars. So I'll give it at a high level and maybe do a couple practical exercises for one or two of them. So the first pillar is rewiring your wounds. And this is the thing that brings the most relief. So it's not nice to have to feel like you're constantly bracing for abandonment, constantly bracing for betrayal, or these big core wounds that people are carrying, and honestly, they're what create the most dysfunction in our relationships. Because, you know, for a fearful avoidant who has a big betrayal wound, for example, and abandonment wound and a fear of being trapped.

C (38:11)

Yeah.

A (38:12)

What happens? Their beliefs create patterns of thought. And like, let's just use a really easy analogy. If somebody believes they're not good enough Then if they go into a social event and they're going to meet a bunch of people, they're like, oh, my gosh, am I going to be interesting enough? Am I funny enough? Am I attractive enough? And they oscillate and think all these things, and then those patterns of thought create emotions. Right. How do we feel when we're thinking those things? Yeah. And emotions are made up of neurochemical reactions. So the beliefs that are wired into us at a subconscious level will actually. I compare it to like a tree trunk.

C (38:44)

Yeah.

A (38:45)

And your thoughts are kind of all the tree branches coming off of it. Yeah. And then your emotions are the tree leaves that color your experience. And then this actually creates, you know, this. This neurochemical output in your brain. Yeah. And the neuroscience has actually proven that every single action we take, a neuroscientist name and Antonio Damasio, proved that every action we take is actually based on our emotional state. So what's wild about that is even people who think they're very logical, rational thinkers, everybody's just making emotionally based decisions at the tipping point, and then they're just quick to rationalize or justify through logic after the fact. So you can make a pretty good argument for if you're not in charge of your triggers at a subconscious level, you're not even in charge of your actions. On that thread that follows outwards, and we see this, right. People raise their voice and they're like, why did I do that? Or people retreat in Stonewall and they're like, I wish I could talk through in real time, or all these different themes. So first pillar is to rewire those things, and maybe we'll start there. I'll give an exercise that people can do. So first things first. I do not believe in affirmations too much, to the distress of most people. And here's why. Your conscious mind speaks language and your subconscious mind does not. So if I say to you, okay, whatever you do, Tay, do not think of the pink elephant. You probably have a pink elephant. And your conscious mind hears language and hears do not. And so in retrospect, you're like, oh, I shouldn't have just thought of the pink elephant. But your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and imagery, so you just flash the image of the pink elephant before you could even consciously think of it.

C (40:15)

Right.

A (40:16)

So what's interesting about this is that when we use affirmations, they're only language. They're not reaching the subconscious mind. So if you are saying you're working on the wound, I'm not Good enough. And you just say, I'm good enough. I'm good enough. I'm good enough. Well, that's just reaching conscious mind. Your wounds are at the subconscious level. Nobody in their right mind would ever wake up and be like, I'm gonna tell myself, I'm not good enough all day and see how I feel. Like, that's not a conscious choice. And so what happens is we actually need to use to. We need to learn to use our conscious mind to speak to our own subconscious mind. And how this works is we need to leverage emotion and imagery and repetition. So there's three steps. Okay? First step is find your wound and its opposite. So let's just use I am not good enough. I am good enough. Second step is we actually leverage memory. Because if you look at old memories, all memories are containers for emotions and images. So if you were to say, oh, my favorite childhood memory was me playing at the beach with my family, you'd see the images of the waves in your mind's eye. You would see the images of the sand and maybe the sandcastle and the red bucket. And we've all seen people, when they recall old memories, smile or they laugh or they have this sort of thing that comes out. So what we do is we say, okay, I am not good enough. I am good enough. I need 10 memories of times I did actually feel good enough. And if we say, oh, you know, last week I was a really good friend and I showed up this way, we see the image of what we did. We feel the pride or satisfaction of being a good friend. Oh, you know, three days ago, I had a hard conversation with my spouse, and I'm proud of that. And I felt good about that, and that was good enough to. So we actually want to look for 10 real pieces of evidence in our life also so that we can take it in and it's believable. And then neuroscience tells us that we need to leverage repetition because repetition and emotion is what fires and wires neural pathways. And neural pathways in your brain are much like muscles. If you work out your bicep, it grows. If you stop, it atrophies over time. Neural pathways in your brain do the exact same thing. So what we do is step one, I am not good enough. I am good enough. Step two, ten pieces of evidence that you are good enough. Step three, we record ourselves saying it into our phone or somewhere we can listen back. And for 21 days, in the morning, first hour that we wake up, or last hour before we go to bed, because our brain is Producing more alpha brainwaves. At that time, we're more suggestible. Our subconscious is more open to taking in information. And so what we do is we listen to ourselves having said that out loud, and recording it. And our main focus is in that suggestible state to feel about it and visualize about it. And it takes two to three minutes a day. It's very simple and easy to do. It's repeatable, and it has a massive impact. We saw people in our programs who did this. People who actually stuck to the entire thing and did it for their 21 days and reported working it through, reported a 99.7% NPS score, which is like a satisfaction score with their output. And so, like, if you really stick to it, it's not hard to do. It really works. And it's so relieving because as somebody who, like, had all the core wounds at one point in my life, it takes up so much mental, emotional, real estate all the time to have these wounds that are shooting out these thoughts and then emotions that are then in turn causing these neurochemicals to come out and dysregulate your nervous system and put you in fight or flight mode. Like, by working through these core wounds at the root first, it changes how you think about yourself and your environment, changes how you feel, can affect your neurochemistry. And it's ultimately our neurochemistry that's dysregulating our nervous system. Right. If you're feeling like all this cortisol that actually triggers you to move into sympathetic nervous system or fight and flight, which then refeeds these painful thought cycles, and it just gets caught in this loop. And so they're actually very solvable problems, but we just need to commit to that. 21 days of doing the work.

C (43:58)

Yeah.

A (43:59)

Just from sharing personal experience, like, I couldn't believe how much more still my mind became. Like, I used to have so much drama in my mind, like, oh, no, people are gonna think this or I'm this or I'm that. And you get in these loops and these cycles, and you're in stress. And then because you're in stress, you, like, eat too much junk food or binge watch television or you avoid things, and you're just in these terrible cycles. But by changing those things at the root, all of a sudden you have all this room and mental space back to focus on, like, creating and connecting and being more present in your life and world. And it's like such a beautiful shift and change. So. So just want to encourage everybody to try it at home. Yeah.

C (44:33)

No, that's good.

A (44:34)

So the second pillar is to know your needs like we talked about. And I kind of said them all for the attachment style so people can go back and listen to that. But actually it's not just the intellectualization, the conscious awareness. Because that's just conscious mind stuff.

C (44:47)

Yeah.

A (44:48)

It's actually that people have to learn to meet them themselves. So what's really interesting about our relationships is the things that we struggle to give most to ourselves, we tend to put the most pressure on others to do for us. So you see for an example, anxious attachment cells, they struggle to self soothe. So what do they do? They're like, soothe me, soothe me, come back, make it okay, I need closeness. Dismissive avoidance. They often end up struggling in conflict. They don't like conflict and they feel quite uncomfortable in conflict. And so they're like, we should never have conflict. Let's not, why should we ever have a conflict? Let's just sweep it away. And so we all tend to put this accidental pressure into our relationships and things that we struggle to self source and actually be able to show up for in the relationship to self first.

C (45:31)

Yeah.

A (45:31)

And so what's really important is that in our childhood, when we don't get access to these things and we don't get needs that are really fundamental to our security as human beings, there's almost a void left behind in our subconscious mind. There's something really important that's missing. And so the next step of healing is not to just go out to your partner and get these from other people. It's actually to learn to give these things to yourself through repetition across 21 days to wire in these habits and patterns. So, for example, you know, if somebody is an anxious attachment style, they really struggle to self soothe, but they really struggle to make themselves feel seen and known and be present with themselves and emotionally connect to themselves. And that's part of what's underneath all of that. And so we get anxious attachment styles for 21 days to like get a journaling strategy, do meditations where they're practicing noticing sensations in their body and actually self attuning.

C (46:26)

Yeah.

A (46:26)

And it sounds like such a small thing, but has such a powerful impact because these are things they didn't get from their childhood. They didn't get to resource. Yeah. And once we wire that in and pattern that in across that 21 day cycle, all of a sudden we fill this void that was left behind from our own childhood and we're more regulated as individuals, as adults and so it's very powerful to do. And then I'll just say the last big one is. Every attachment cell has different boundary issues. Dismissive avoidance boundaries are a little too extreme sometimes. Anxious attachment styles have no boundaries most of the time. And fearful avoidance have all or nothing boundaries where they are very people pleasing. And then they get frustrated and then their boundaries become extreme, and they're kind of like one or the other. So helping individuals get back into healthier boundaries across time is a big deal too.

C (47:11)

I love that I. I got lucky that I feel like I was the opposite. Like, when I learned I had ptsd, I felt so validated because I was like, I'm not actually going crazy. Like, this is. There's something going on in my head. Like, I could see it on the brain scan. And it helped me really then take the proper steps to heal. So I hope lemon drops, that's what you hear. If you've heard you are one of these attachment styles that maybe aren't in the healthiest state that you take those steps. Because when you say the different pillars, they are approachable. It is just the smallest change. And the repetition of it really is what can do it.

A (47:52)

Exactly. And you should be so proud of yourself, because it's not easy to be diagnosed with PTSD and have PTSD and go through all that that entails. And it takes a special type of person to be like, I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna do the work and I'm gonna address it and confront it and go through it. And I always say to people, it's always way more work not to do the work. Like, it's way harder to carry what you're carrying. And whether it's something as extreme, as intense and hard as PTSD and to move through that, or your attachment's not like, it's a lot. It's carrying unhealthy maladaptive patterns because of trauma, because of hard things. It's nobody's fault that they had that. But also only we can take responsibility and do that. And so it's work that you get that relief and you get that stress full time to do the work back. You get your time back, you get yourself back. And so it's. Yeah, I love that you said that. I couldn't agree more.

C (48:43)

What would you say to someone that's listening to this right now that is curious about healing and learning more about themselves, but is kind of too scared to make that jump?

A (48:55)

I would say, to be honest, Cause I'm more intense about things But I would say, like, to look at what it's costing you not to, and you want to have an honest conversation with yourself. Like, you know, what are the costs of staying in the same place right now, going through the same patterns, the same themes, and what are the costs? Not right now, but in one year, if I didn't change in five years, in 10 years, and my, you know, 20 years from now, if I didn't do anything to make a change, and sometimes really evaluating that and then being like, well, what would my life look like? How would it actually serve me if I could drop these things, if I could change these patterns and to sort of see how like your world would open up. I kind of joke with people sometimes in our programs. I'm like, I'm like, if you're not changing or you're not gonna do the work to change, especially like the first day when people come in, I'm like, just so you know, your parents are still running your brain.

C (49:44)

And that's so funny. That's good.

A (49:47)

Cause like, you got your patterns.

C (49:48)

That's motivation right there. Kids don't need the motivation. Parents running the brain, that's the motivation.

A (49:53)

Exactly, exactly. So what I like about like doing the work is just that, that you get to decide who you want to be. Right. Like how I want to design my life on my terms and evaluate it and then do the work to get out of the way anything that's blocking you from it and like your peace and fulfillment can be there on terms that are yours.

C (50:08)

Yeah, I love that. Well, thanks for coming on and explaining all of this. Obviously you guys could tell, you could tell I loved learning all of this. And I think if you guys are listening to this right now, we'll leave a link below to go check this all out. But. But it's never too late to start this.

A (50:25)

Absolutely. And like, I see people all the time who are like in their 70s and come in and change and they'll get. It's so worth it. And I love that about people. It's like, it feels confronting, but absolutely, you can change at any time. Yeah, I love it.

C (50:35)

Where can people learn more about all of this?

A (50:38)

So I am at the personal development school. So people can go to personaldevelopmentschool.com they can actually get a full free in depth attachment report that will say what their attachment style is, their wounds, their needs, all their profile in detail and how to start taking those steps to heal and change. And then on YouTube, Thais Gibson T H A I S Gibson Personal Development School and on Instagram at the Personal Development School.

C (51:01)

Love it. We'll link all of that down below as well for you guys to go.

A (51:04)

Thank you so much. I love it.

C (51:06)

Well, thanks for sitting down with me.

A (51:07)

Thank you for having me. It was so fun to talk with you. Foreign. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.