11 Great Ways to Build Wealth (SB1692)

Summary

Episode Summary: 11 Great Ways to Build Wealth (SB1692) | The Stacking Benjamins Show

In this engaging episode of The Stacking Benjamins Show, hosts Joe Saul-Sehy and Doug explore "11 Great Ways to Build Wealth" through a dynamic game show format. Joined by special guests Doc G from Earn and Invest, financial expert Paula Pant from Afford Anything, and Jesse Kramer from Personal Finance for Long Term Investors, the trio delves deep into practical strategies for enhancing personal finances. The episode, released on June 6, 2025, balances informative discussions with lighthearted banter, making complex financial concepts accessible and entertaining.

1. Boost Your Income

The conversation kicks off with strategies to increase earnings. Jesse Kramer emphasizes the importance of long-term growth over immediate but limited earnings:

"If you can zoom out to a slightly wider lens, like, say, over the next year... might be a way to boost your income somehow." [12:04]

Poignant advice from Doc G suggests asking for a raise as a straightforward method to enhance income:

"Prove that you've been showing up at work regularly and doing a good job... maybe it's time to say, hey, I'm worth more than you're paying me." [13:03]

2. Spend Less and Budget Effectively

Managing expenses is crucial for wealth building. Doc G advocates for keeping a budget to understand spending patterns:

"Almost anyone can look at their budget and say, do I really need to spend that much?" [17:03]

Paula Pant introduces the concept of an "anti-budget", where savings are prioritized before discretionary spending:

"With the anti budget, number one, when I say savings, I'm referring to anything that boosts your net worth..." [17:29]

This approach encourages setting aside savings first, fostering disciplined spending habits.

3. Invest Wisely

Investing is a cornerstone of wealth accumulation. Doc G recommends starting simple with broad-based index funds:

"Picking a few broad-based index funds or even one very broad-based index fund and jumping in." [20:04]

Joe Saul-Sehy echoes the sentiment of starting easy to build confidence in investing, emphasizing the importance of long-term growth over short-term gains.

4. Pay Down Debt vs. Invest

A critical decision for many is whether to pay down debt or invest. Jesse Kramer highlights the importance of evaluating the interest rates and risk associated with each option:

"The mistake... is like, oh, well, if I invest in the stock market, I will get 10%... whereas this debt I have, maybe it's my car loan, is only 7%, so I'd rather invest." [45:35]

However, both Doc G and Paula Pant counter that paying down debt offers guaranteed returns by eliminating future obligations, making it a safer bet compared to the unpredictable nature of investments.

5. Homeownership as a Wealth-Building Tool

The traditional view positions buying a home as a primary method to build wealth. Doc G acknowledges the statistical correlation between homeownership and wealth accumulation:

"Buy a home is my answer. It is actually the most successful way to build wealth in the United States." [54:10]

Contrarily, Paula Pant challenges this notion, emphasizing geographic specificity:

"I strongly disagree that it is a good path to building wealth, particularly if you live in a high cost of living area... in Manhattan, it's a slam dunk to rent." [55:38]

This debate underscores the importance of evaluating local real estate markets and personal financial situations before deciding to buy a home.

6. Keep Investment Costs Low

Minimizing fees and expenses associated with investments can significantly impact long-term returns. While not deeply elaborated in the episode, this principle aligns with the overall theme of maximizing efficiency in financial strategies.

7. Polish Your Credit

Maintaining a strong credit score is essential for financial health. Regularly reviewing and managing credit reports can prevent unnecessary rate increases and ensure eligibility for favorable lending terms.

"How often do you look at your property casualty insurances... it's like right after your birthday is a great time to take a look." [44:47]

8. Save for Other Financial Goals

Beyond retirement, setting aside funds for diverse financial objectives ensures a well-rounded wealth strategy. Paula Pant emphasizes goal-based investing, allowing individuals to allocate resources according to specific milestones and aspirations.

9. Insurance Review and Optimization

Regularly reviewing insurance policies helps safeguard against unforeseen expenses that can derail wealth-building efforts. Guests discuss the importance of:

• Property and casualty insurance: Ensuring adequate coverage to protect assets.
• Using brokers: Leveraging professional assistance to find optimal insurance rates.

10. Reduce Living Expenses through Smart Living Choices

Adopting cost-saving measures in daily life can free up significant funds for savings and investments. Ideas include:

• Living in rent-stabilized apartments: Beneficial in high-rent areas.
• Geo-arbitrage: Moving to areas with a lower cost of living to maximize financial efficiency.

11. Maintain Low Investment Costs

Keeping investment-related expenses minimal ensures that more money stays invested, compounding over time to build substantial wealth.

Notable Moments and Quotes

• Anti-Budget Strategy: Paula Pant's innovative approach to budgeting highlights the importance of prioritizing savings to boost net worth from the outset.

  "The anti budget is pulling off savings first and then spending the rest freely." [17:29]

• Debt vs. Investment Debate: The hosts and guests engage in a lively discussion about the merits of paying down debt versus investing, providing nuanced perspectives based on individual financial situations.

  "There's some gray area, and it depends on the person and their personal risk tolerance." [46:54]

• Homeownership Controversy: The differing viewpoints on buying a home versus renting spark an insightful conversation about market-specific strategies.

  "In Manhattan, it's a slam dunk to rent." [55:38]

Concluding Insights

The episode wraps up with a humorous yet thoughtful conclusion to the game show segment, reinforcing the key takeaways:

1. Prioritize Savings and Investments: Implementing strategies like the anti-budget and investing in broad-based funds can set a strong foundation for wealth.
2. Evaluate Debt Carefully: Understanding the dynamics between debt repayment and investment opportunities is crucial for optimizing financial growth.
3. Make Informed Real Estate Decisions: Recognizing when homeownership is beneficial based on local market conditions can significantly impact wealth accumulation.

Overall, Episode SB1692 of The Stacking Benjamins Show offers a comprehensive and entertaining guide to building wealth, enriched with expert opinions and practical advice. Whether you're new to personal finance or looking to refine your strategies, this episode provides valuable insights to help you navigate the complex journey of wealth building.

Transcript

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

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[Doc G]

Here we go.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hold your ears, folks. It's showtime.

[Doug]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And how do you grow your wealth? We found one publication that describes 11 ways to do just that, and we've asked our gold medal roundtable participants to share their views. Unfortunately, none of them were available for today's taping. We pulled these three losers out of line at the DMV and we'll get their completely uninformed opinions.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I did not write that. Just so you know where the blame lies. I did not write that.

[Doug]

But that's not all. Halfway through this discussion, we'll pause briefly for another dollop of my amazing trivia. He wrote that. Can Paula and Jesse catch og you're about to find out. And now the guy who found out a long time ago how not to grow your wealth, it's Jo Sal Sia.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That would be a great top 11 list ways Joe's practice to not grow your wealth. Yeah, it could be like 27. Hey everybody. Welcome to Friday on the Stacking Benjamin Show. Let me be the first one to welcome you. Sit back and relax because we have a special episode today and we've got three very special contributors. Mr. OG is not here today, so filling in for him is a good friend in Chicago from Earn and Invest. Doc Gee, Jordan Grumman joins us. How are you, brother?

[Doc G]

I'm good and I'm really looking Forward to tanking OG's trivia score. So this couldn't be better.

[Paula Pant]

Better.

[Doc G]

OG, you're going down because I'm getting it wrong.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's so funny, Doug, that we're like, who should fill in for O? Oh, we know somebody who's really bad at trivia. It could be. Could be Doc G. Speaking of bad at trivia, Paula Pants here. Manhattan is in the house. How are you?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, I'm fantastic. I am looking forward to this episode. This. This is going to be my episode. I know it.

[Doc G]

This is the one.

[Paula Pant]

I'm feeling good.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You could get two points in today's episode.

[Doug]

Ooh.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, I know.

[Doug]

This is a bad one for OG to miss. This is heavily weighted scoring opportunity.

[Paula Pant]

It's a great one for the coalition. Remember, there's a coalition to defeat og.

[Doug]

Oh, God.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hey, here's the question, though, Paula. This show's been on for 15 years. How many times have you said, I'm feeling good about today?

[Paula Pant]

Over the span of the last 15 years, I've said it many times, and nearly every time, if not every time, I was incorrect. Which means that we are due for a reversion to the mean.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

She's due.

[Paula Pant]

Right? We're due for a reversion to them. Just probabilistically speaking. We have to mean revert at some point.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think she said that the last eight years, Doug.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, probably.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes. And way up in the frozen tundra of Rochester, New York, our good friend Jesse Kramer is here. How are you, man?

[Jesse Kramer]

It's great. It's really nice. We just got above freezing for the first time last week. And so the snowbanks are melting. Most people put their snowmobiles away and we're. We're ready for summer.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Just a slight amount of hyperbole there. Just slight. By the way, I was in Boston just recently, if some people hear this, about a week and a half ago, and I do wear my coat part of the time. Jesse is still not summery there. Then I come back to Texas to 91 degrees.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, it is unseasonably cold here. I mean, you know, it's chillier than it is down south. But I still think right now, I was just. I just saw something yesterday because it's kind of making some headlines. Like the average high temperature right now is like mid-60s, high-60s, something like that. And this whole week has been like low 50s, even high 40s. So it's definitely chilly still. But it'll get nice. It'll get nice.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And the Rochester, New York Weather Report brought to you by we have a special episode. It's called a Game show episode. I'll explain it in just a minute. We're going to talk about all the different ways to grow your wealth when we get back. But before then, the Weather Report is brought to you by these two sponsors that give you all Jesse's Rochester weather goodness and the game show and our trivia segment all for free. So sit back, let's hear from them and then it's time to pit these three crazies against each other talking about growing wealth. This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal can help you find and finance the right vehicle with ease. With Navy Federal's car buying service, Powered by True Car, you can find the vehicle that's right for you as you search through inventory, compare models and you could get an amazing rate when you finance with Navy federal. Visit navy federal.org truecar to learn more. Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Credit and collateral subject to approval I know personally that debt isn't just about money. It's about stress and sleepless nights and that constant weight on your shoulders. It can affect your relationships. It can shred your confidence. Truly. It can overshadow your whole life. So know that if you've ever felt any of that, you're not alone. There are millions of Americans struggling with debt, but there's a solution that can help. Beyond Finance was founded with a simple mission to help those struggling with overwhelming debt find a pathway to financial freedom. They can help you escape that endless cycle of making just minimum payments. Typical Beyond Finance clients see their payments on enrolled debt lowered by 40% or more. So you can expect immediate relief and the chance to start saving. The team prioritizes a hands on compassionate approach coupled with a focus on helping you get out of debt as soon as possible, save money and establish long term financial wellbeing. They offer personalized 24. 7 support and financial wellness sessions and with accredited financial therapist. And you know you're in good hands with a Trust pilot rating of 4.6 out of 5 stars. So if you're ready to take that first step or learn more about achieving financial wellness, visit Beyond Finance.com not available in all states. Fees vary by state. Results may vary. Oh, you guys know what that sound means? It means it is time for the game show. And if you're new to stacking Benjamins, what we do is we take a piece from the popular press that some stacker found online this one I actually found myself. I can even do it myself, Doug. I don't have to have Doug feed me all the pieces. I actually found myself. I know. And generally, by the way, if you're new to our game show, the pieces a lot of the time are kind of bs. They kind of truly are not that great. And what I love about the game show, and Paula's done many of them. Doc G's done a few. This is Jesse's first game show, so Jesse's getting in on this. Goodness. What I really like is the banter between the three of you because often the stuff you come up with is way better than the things in the piece. I think this piece is no exception to that rule. These are 11 ways to grow your wealth.

[Doug]

Basically, Joe is serving up rage bait for you 3.

[Jesse Kramer]

I've done one of these.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You have done one.

[Jesse Kramer]

Ben Carlson wrote one. It was the 15 mistakes that people make in the market or something.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But you have. It's been a while.

[Jesse Kramer]

I forgot about it so much. This might as well be my first.

[Doc G]

But you've been re virginized.

[Doug]

Oh, whoa.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yo, that's what.

[Jesse Kramer]

That's a medical term. He's a doctor, guys. That's a medical term.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's what Jesse tells all the podcast he goes on. It's been so long, you might as well be my first. Yeah. So 11 ways to grow your wealth. Doug and I have them in front of us. Hopefully you don't have them in front of you, but we will go because, Paula, you are. Well, let's see what the score is, by the way, because the rules are you're going to get one point for this game. And then the meta thing we always do during game show week, we stop the game halfway through to play a different game so you can get two points. And the way the game show works is we're going to have three rounds. Round one, answers are worth one point. Round two, they're worth two points. And in round three, answers are worth three points. But Doug, what is the score of our trivia contest thus far?

[Doug]

Currently, we have OG sitting at six. We have Jesse at five and a half points and Paula at four and a half.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Anybody can take the lead today.

[Doug]

Today. That's right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So that means, Paula, while there's 11 names on the board, you get to guess first which title. So for everybody new, what Paul is trying to do is guess one of the 11 points that were on this piece. 11 things you can do to help grow your wealth.

[Paula Pant]

The pressure is on being the first to guess who. Okay. 11 things you can do to help grow your wealth. Where was this published?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I can't tell you. I will tell you later.

[Doug]

Can I get a country of origin?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Could use it in a sentence.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

11 things you can do to help grow your wealth. Invest in your 401k.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hmm.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, no.

[Doug]

I don't think we can give it to her, Joe.

[Doc G]

The article's wrong. The article's wrong.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You don't think so? Because here's the deal, Doug.

[Doc G]

The judges are talking now.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's too specific.

[Paula Pant]

I was too specific. I should have said investors.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It is too specific. So, Doug, do we give her a different. Another chance, or do we just say nae nae?

[Doug]

Well, I think I. I know. I. I think we have to say nae nae. Because if we give her this one.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It could be a bunch of different ones.

[Doug]

It could be a bunch of different ones.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It could be a bunch of different ones. So we got to do this. Paula. Yeah, these are. These are a little more general than that. So let's go to Jesse. You get to go second. Paula opened it up for you. I think she did, but I'll let.

[Jesse Kramer]

Paula reclaim that one later if she wants. I'm gonna go with. I'm gonna go with work more.

[Doc G]

Work more, work more.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is work more on the list? Yes, it is. They don't call it work more. They call it boost your income.

[Doug]

Right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And what's funny, Jesse, is that, you know, sometimes in financial planning, it is an income problem. It is. It can be an income problem.

[Doc G]

I'm already having problems with this because boost your income is like 10, 15, 20 different things we talk about on personal finance podcast, so.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, these are going to be great. You're going to hate all these.

[Doug]

Falling right into our rage, babe.

[Doc G]

Now, like, that got rid of, like, five of my choices because I was thinking of specific ways to raise your income.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But, Jesse, let's check. Well, and doc, we can go into some of those to the different ways to do that, because I'd like to pause on each of these for a second. We get one right. But Jesse, a lot of the time we'll find stackers are very interested in how do I cut more, how do I cut more, how do I cut more? And often when I talk to these people, it seems like they've cut to the bone when clearly it. I mean, it's blue sky if you just increase your income.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I mean, this is funny because it's. You hear this discussed a lot. And the one thing I'll give People a lot of credit for is if you're thinking in the short term or if you like, if you want to start taking action this weekend, the thing to do is to cut, right? The thing to do is to look at your budget and cut. But if you can zoom out to a slightly wider lens, like, say, over the next year. How do I do something over the next year? Well, all of a sudden there, there might be a way to boost your income somehow. Additional hours, additional certifications, more training, a better job. I mean, all those kind of things that in the long run, that's probably the better use of your time and energy.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Doc, you were talking about different ways to boost your income. What's a favorite one? If you need money quick, and maybe a better one if you need money, more money longer term.

[Doc G]

So longer term, I think we all agree, ask for a raise. Like, prove that the easiest thing to do, right, Is to prove you've already been showing up at work regularly and doing a good job and maybe you deserve a raise. Do a little bit of research. Find out what other people getting paid to do what you do. Look at the last time you had a raise. Look at whether you've delivered on your deliverables, and if you're checking off all those boxes, maybe it's time to say, hey, I'm worth more than you're paying me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, Paula, I don't love driving Uber, but I think it's a great thing if you just need money in the next two weeks.

[Paula Pant]

You know, when you. When it comes to side hustles, there's a couple of different buckets that these belong to. So there's gig economy, which is what you're talking about when you discuss driving Uber. Gig economy. The benefit is that you get money in the door immediately. The drawback is that the upside is limited. Beyond gig economy, there are also side hustles where you're selling a service or a product. The benefit is that there's much, much greater upside. The drawback is that there's a much longer, slower ramp to getting there. And there could also be startup costs or some startup capital. The way a lot of people play it is they might start by offering a service which has low cost of capital, and then eventually use the cash flow from that to develop a product. There's a whole gamut when it comes to side hustles, ranging from gig economy, drive for Uber, get money today versus start a side business, get money next year.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Our good friend Justin Peters, who was on the show a few weeks ago, Justin just Had a great episode with Nick Loper from side Hustle Nation. The two of them really dive deep. So we can link to Justin's cool episode on that very topic in the in the show notes. Another thing I like about side Hustle is if you're thinking about whether I like something or not doing it as a side hustle part time to see if you truly like it. I love what Austin Kleon said when he was on the show. The guy that talks about steel like an artist about everything doesn't need to be a side hustle. In America. We see somebody who's great at baking cupcakes was his example. And we immediately go, oh, you should sell cupcakes. And if you read a book like the E. Myth, you learn very quickly that there's a difference between selling cupcakes and making cupcakes and running a cupcake business can suck all the joy out of all the cupcakes that you were having fun just giving to your friends.

[Doug]

I think we're overcomplicating this. I mean Paula was halfway there. I mean it could just be good old fashioned street hustle. And I mean think of the upside. The, the, the wardrobe is amazing. You get to wear these baller clothes and it's instant cash. I mean whether it's like three card Monty or that.

[Doc G]

I like the shell game. I like the shell game. Yeah, the shell game.

[Doug]

Or maybe you, maybe you got a banging body and you're just like out there.

[Doc G]

I mean it's instant cash only fans.

[Doug]

I mean 15 minute increments. I, I mean don't, it doesn't always have to be that complicated.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, just a second. We have a last minute disclaimer coming in. Duck's opinion is not endorsed by the Stacking Benjamin show. Sorry, just don't know where that came from. Jesse's on the board with one Doc G. There's still 10 left.

[Doc G]

I mean if we're going as broad as make more money then we have to talk about what Jesse said was the thing that everyone brings up but spend less then. Right? Budget or spend less. I mean if you're going to really build wealth, that's one of the other ways. If we're looking at broad, very broad categories and don't tell me that's not on there because this is not a good article if it's not on there.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, we already know it's not really a good article.

[Doug]

Well, now I kind of want to say no.

[Doc G]

That'S not on there. It just disqualifies the article. I quit. I'm done.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That is so funny, Doug, because I was just about to hit this button for fun, when in truth, it's actually this button. Yeah, he got it right. Stick to a budget is on the list, you know, especially for our stackers Doc. Just getting started, just knowing how you spend money, I think is. Is job number one to being able to shove more away.

[Doc G]

Yeah, I mean, look, it's wonderful if you have all these sources of revenue. It's wonderful if you can ask for a raise, it's wonderful if you can do a side hustle. But all those depend on possibilities that may or may not be in your hands. But almost anyone can look at their budget and say, do I really need to spend that much?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, it doesn't have to, Paula, be a quote budget per se. You do it kind of the opposite, which is pretty cool.

[Paula Pant]

So I'm a big fan of what I refer to as the anti budget, where you pull your savings off the top first and then spend the rest. And so with the anti budget, number one, when I say savings, I'm referring to anything that boosts your net worth. So it could be literal savings in a savings account. It could be contributions to a retirement account. It could be extra payments on a debt above and beyond the minimum required. But any net worth booster is what I include in this savings. And you just pick a number, either a raw dollar amount or a percentage of your income. You pull it off the top first and then whatever is left over is yours to spend freely.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jesse, do you like that approach? Apollo's the anti budget. If somebody's brand new to the world of trying to get more money saved. Yeah.

[Jesse Kramer]

I mean, just from experience, there are, there are a lot of people who, if they see money sitting in the account, will feel the temptation to spend it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Me.

[Jesse Kramer]

Right, right. And so I think there are. I mean, the anti budget is one of a few different ways that it really helps people like that ensure that they check the right boxes first before they go off and spend their money.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I still think there's value though, in seeing those expenses and how you spend money, which is why I've advocated like a 20 minute meeting once a week. Just go, take 20 minutes, set a timer so that you don't go over that. Just review how you spent money last week, think about how you spent money the next week. Boom, you're done. Very, very simple. Because I found subscriptions early on that I forgot that I had. I found opportunities with my phone bill that I didn't realize that I had like, just I think that that conscious. 20 minutes, Paula, can go a long way if somebody's new.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah. And I will say, you know, the anti budget tends to work best if you have a little bit of discretionary income. If you're really paycheck to paycheck, sometimes it requires a much tighter budgeting because you just have less margin there.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right, at the end of round one, Doug, what's the score?

[Doug]

We have Jordan with one point, Jesse with one point, and Paula with zero points.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I feel bad making Paula go first now because it was so, so close. It was so, so, so, so, so close. But we're gonna turn it around the opposite way in round two. And Doc G, you get another guess here.

[Doc G]

Oh, well, geez. I'm gonna go for the low hanging fruit then. Invest. You're gonna invest.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is invest a key to building wealth? It certainly is. I know you guys find this shocking. Do we need to take a second, Jesse, and talk about why investing might be important if you want to build your wealth?

[Jesse Kramer]

To be honest with you, it wasn't on my list. No, I mean, yeah, I mean, clearly it's. We want assets that will work while we sleep, and we want assets that will grow hopefully in excess of inflation. And the whole idea is that you set some capital aside and you let someone else do something productive with it. Usually, sometimes you're the one doing something productive with it, but in the long run, you kind of benefit from this. Great. Instead of paying an opportunity cost, you're really benefiting from an opportunity cost.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jordan, where does the new person start when it comes to investing? Because it looks like this big, wide field we can freak out over.

[Doc G]

Well, there happens to be a book that's being republished very soon, or actually was May 20th. So. J.L. collins book, the Simple Path to Wealth. Basically, the Stacking Benjamin Show. All sorts of podcast blogs can really talk to you about basic investing. It is much easier than you think, especially when you're new. As we know, Joe Salsihai is a big fan of starting out simple. And then as you understand investing better, you can actually build a better portfolio, a better asset allocation. But in the beginning, it's getting the easy things right, picking a few broad based index funds or even one very broad based index fund and jumping in.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The way you phrase that answer, I feel like I owe you 20 bucks. Like, do I owe you money now?

[Doc G]

You and J.L.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, both of us. Like, Doug's like, oh, God, yeah. This is why Jordan's my BFF right there. All right, we Go to Jesse Now, Jesse, we got eight of them left on the board. Things you can do to build your wealth.

[Jesse Kramer]

I just want to point out I was saving Invest for Paula, going around.

[Doug]

The horn because of the coalition that's breaking.

[Doc G]

I need the points, man. I need the points.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is the coalition breaking up?

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm going to go inherit it.

[Doug]

The old fashioned way.

[Doc G]

Real passive income is kill a relative on the list.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Ouch. Inheritance did not make the list. You know, a lot of people think when they first get into the building wealth game that, that, hey, you know, these rich people around me, they inherited it. And sometimes that's the case. But looking at some of these books that have come out that have studied people becoming millionaires, the number of people that have inherited wealth is just a sliver. It's a small, small, small number.

[Jesse Kramer]

No, it definitely is. And I mean, just in general, most people, is it fair to say most people would rather take their fate into their own hands? You know, we all have heard the stories of their times where someone was kind of depending on an inheritance in a certain way and maybe they just made a wrong assumption about how wealthy their, their family was. Or maybe they didn't realize that the estate plan that their family member put together actually left a bunch to charity or, you know, left a bunch to cousin Rick instead of them, like those kind of things. So I'm a little surprised it's not on the list. But still, I don't think it's something that people should really depend on. Maybe with the one exception of if you've had really clear discussions with others in your family about how you are written into estate planning documents, like maybe then you can plan on it in some way, shape or form. But that's probably the only exception.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right, last guest before we take a quick break. Paula, we still got eight of them hanging out there.

[Paula Pant]

All right, we've covered the basics. So we've covered earn more, spend less and invest.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, I would submit there's eight more really basic things you can do.

[Paula Pant]

I'm going to take the other half of my perhaps too specific initial guess. Initially I had said invest in your 401k. That was too specific. We've established that the first part of it, invest is one of them. But what about with regards to the 401k? What if save for retirement or plan.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

For retirement broadly is broadly save or did you have more?

[Paula Pant]

Did you have more save plan dream of.

[Doc G]

She's trying to be as broad as possible aspire to. I think save is what you want to say this is a very broad thing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is safer retirement on the list? It is. And actually they're even more specific, Paula, which is start with retirement. When you start out, prioritize financial independence over everything else. Like, you've got all these other goals. The other goals are fine. But saving for retirement should be the number one thing when you start investing. Do you agree with that sentiment?

[Paula Pant]

Yes, I believe that at. So a lot of people who are starting out often start out with some amount of debt. Like oftentimes if you're 18 or you're 22, it's not uncommon that you would have student debt, maybe a car loan. You know, a lot of young people at the beginning of their life do have that. So I believe that debt payoff should be a major, major piece of the focus. But I also believe that some amount. If you have an employer with a match, get the employer match. If you don't, you're still. You're so young. Put a little bit into a Roth IRA, just 50 bucks a month, whatever. Just put something into a Roth IRA even though you're also paying off your debt because it builds that habit.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is that what you did, Doc?

[Doc G]

I. I didn't actually listen to her answer because I was thinking of what the next thing is, so I wasn't even paying attention. Darn it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Did you prioritize retirement? Did you? I realize this game show thing is.

[Doc G]

A lot of complicated for me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm.

[Doc G]

I'm really. I'm thinking about the next answer. Like, I'm thinking, that's right. Maybe if I get the next one right, I could win.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, the good news is you've got a whole break here coming up.

[Doc G]

Before that, I was not good, actually. I. You know what I told my accountant when I first started practicing? I'm not putting money in the 401k thing. I don't think it's necessary. Seriously. I said that at the beginning of my career. Yeah. So I had no idea what I was doing, doing on that level. But I was really good. I was saving tons and I was investing tons and I was even buying real estate. But I actually was late to the 401k game. I started about 5 years into my career. My wife already was and I was already getting some match already. Like, I was already getting. It was a match, but I was getting some free money in my 401k. So I did have something there. But I did not follow that advice because I just didn't know.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's cool, though, that you, I mean, you actually did Very well. I'm saying that because it was public in a piece of recently, despite himself, despite yourself, you still did very well.

[Doc G]

Yeah, I was lucky. My parents really modeled great money making modeling. They were really good about just saving, investing, side hustling, et cetera, et cetera.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

How did you finally get on the 401k train?

[Doc G]

I think I just finally realized I'm like, this is dumb. I'm looking at my taxes, I'm looking at how much I'm spending, I'm looking at the fact that I could have this tax deferred growth and just realized that this was a gift and I should be taking and using that gift as opposed to ignoring it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jesse, did you get started early on prioritizing retirement?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, pretty early. I mean, I know at my first job I was using a 401k and getting probably maxing out the match, but for my experience was kind of in my mid-20s. This combination of trying to figure out how to prioritize my dollars, like pay down debt, save for fun stuff, save for retirement. But then also this is kind of what Paula alluded to, like building the habit of investing. And I think something that comes along with that is your account balance gets to a certain point when you're like, oh, there's a lot of money on the line. And if I don't learn what's going on and try to like systematize what's going on, I might shoot myself in the foot in a pretty big way. So that's what happened to me was, you know, it only takes a couple years in those, you know, it was 2012, 2013, 2014. If anybody remembers what the market did during those years where a couple years of diligent 401k saving and next thing you know you've got like 30 or 40 or 50,000 doll in there and you're like, oh, I should really figure out what this is. So that was, that's how I, how I got started.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is it funny how that positive experience makes you go, I like this, like this is great. I mean it's way better than. But you, you read about this. People that walk into a casino and if they put a little bit of money in a slot machine right away, like that's not good. Well, excuse me, they put money in the slot machine, they win right away. That's what I meant. If they win early on in their gambling adventure, not a good thing. Like, not because you're going to learn the wrong things, but heck, if you get it. Investing, Jesse, that's Way better. All right, Doug, we're two thirds of the way done with that game. And what does that mean our score is?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, we have Paula with two points. We have Jesse with just one point. And Jordan, who is failing in his attempt to sink OG's ship. He is leading. He's leading with three points.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What happened to all this talk about the coalition?

[Doc G]

And we were getting brainstorming answers for this next round too. I'm not even in the trivia now. I'm thinking about the next round.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

He's like, who cares about og? I get to win.

[Doc G]

I'm trying to figure out which one of my choices to pick here.

[Paula Pant]

All right, well, Jesse and I are firmly coalition to defeat og.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Gonna have to. You guys are gonna have to.

[Jesse Kramer]

So Doug, Doug said we could combine points.

[Doug]

No, we did not. Just Jesse. I never said that.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah, Joint forces. You texted me like Parliament.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It never, never happened. What does happen, though, every Friday, most Fridays on the Stacking Benjamin show, is we have this year long competition between our three frequent contributors, og, Paula and Jesse and Doc G. Today you're playing on team og. We have this year long trivia competition where we ask them a question, a money related question that is gonna usually very, very, very difficult to get the answer to. Today's maybe no exception. We're about to find out. Doug, what is today's trivia question?

[Doc G]

Foreign.

[Doug]

Doug. And today is my buddy rapper 50 Cent's birthday. Ah, me and 50 Cent, we go way back. I mean, he'd make an album and buy it. He'd rap the song, I'd rap along. It's just two besties collaborating and having a great time. 50 Cent, like me, is a great investor as well. Check out today's Trivia question. In 2007, Coca Cola purchased Glassau, the maker of vitamin water, and one of the brand's celebrities, investors. 50 Cent, my good friend, walked away with a tidy payday thanks to his minority stake in the company. If his earnings from the sale were paid entirely in US $0.50 coins, how many $0.50 pieces would $0.50 have received? I'll be back right after I help Joe's mom clean change out of the junk drawer.

[Doc G]

50 cent coins?

[Paula Pant]

Are you kidding me? Is this a trick question?

[Doc G]

Can I use a calculator?

[Paula Pant]

Is this a trick question? Are there 50 cent coins?

[Doug]

Oh, that's one of the best questions Paul has ever asked.

[Doc G]

What was that? What was the question Paul asked?

[Doug]

Are there actually 50 cent coins? She thinks this is a trick question.

[Paula Pant]

Is it a trick question? And they're actually.

[Jesse Kramer]

It's the one with JFK on it.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Doc G]

Half dollars. Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

Huh. All right.

[Doc G]

There's silver dollars and half dollars. Yeah.

[Doug]

Produced regularly until 2022. Now, minted only on special request, but there are still a massive number of them in circulation.

[Doc G]

Can I use a calculator to calculate how many 50 cent coins is my number? Or do I have to do it all in my head?

[Paula Pant]

Well, you could probably talk it out loud, like. Okay, so. Okay, let me.

[Doc G]

That's too much pressure, Paula. That's too much pressure.

[Paula Pant]

For example, so $1 is $2.50 coins. So $10 is.

[Doc G]

That's true. It's just multiply it Is true. It's just multiplied by two.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes. Multiply it by two.

[Doc G]

Just multiply by two. Yeah.

[Doug]

Joe, we have to let everybody know the order. Like who gets to guess when.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right.

[Doug]

We can't just let them take over. They're running with this thing. Get a hold of the reins, man.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What are you doing, Doug, man. All right, Doc G. Playing on behalf of OG you unfortunately have to go first. So the parent company of Vitamin Water purchased by Coca Cola. If 50 cent was paid in 50 cent pieces, how many 50 cent pieces did he get?

[Doc G]

So he had a minority stake. I'm gonna go with his payout with $75 million. So I'm gonna say that's 150 million pieces.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And 50 million. What do you think about those? I was gonna say those apples, Jesse, but I should say those 50 cent pieces.

[Jesse Kramer]

It's a tough position because it's like if I go one over, I'm just trying to think. It's like, you know, do I go one under? Maybe Paula goes one over.

[Doc G]

That would make one of you win. I mean, it's cruel, but it would.

[Paula Pant]

Or unless he's right up here, a coalition victory.

[Jesse Kramer]

Right? It would. For some reason, I'm thinking higher. I'm thinking higher than you. OG I'm going to say OG or Sorry, Doc G's, we got all the G's. I'm sorry, Doc G, that was mean of me to say. I'm going to say 250.

[Doug]

250 million. 50 cent coins. That's your answer. Okay.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yes.

[Doug]

Got it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Paula. We got what? 250 million and 150 million.

[Paula Pant]

Okay, so, yeah, so Jesse thinks that he made US$125 million.

[Doc G]

Yes.

[Paula Pant]

And Docji thinks that he made 75 million. I'm actually going to take the under. So let's see, Doc cheese guess was 150 million. So I will be 1-499-9999. How many nines is that? 999-9999.

[Doug]

At some point we can't divide the 50 cent piece that many times, so we're going with 149.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The judge has spoken. All right, we've got them locked in. 149 million 50 cent pieces from Paula, 150 million from Doc G and 250 million from Jesse. Who's getting the point? We'll find out. Just a minute.

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[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And now word from our sponsors at Betterment. When investing your money starts to feel like a second job. Betterment steps in with a little work life balance. We're the automated investing and savings app that handles the work so you don't have to. Your money's diversified and optimized day after day, again and again. Because your money doesn't need a work life balance, you do. Plus, new investing customers can get up to $1,000 with a qualifying deposit. Terms apply. Make your money hustle with Betterment. Get [e-mail] investing involves risk performance not guaranteed. Small business owners. State farms there with small business insurance to fit your specific needs. Whether you're starting a new venture or growing an existing one, State Farm helps you choose the right coverage to protect what matters most. Working with a local State Farm agent helps you understand your coverage options. Offering local support to help you achieve your goals. Focused on turning your passion into a thriving business. Knowing your insurance can change as your business grows. Stay Farm here to help you succeed with your business like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Doc G. You kicked this off with 150 in the coalition immediately split. They were supposed to come in like both on either side of you and.

[Doc G]

They didn't do it. Surprised? I'm surprised. Jesse. Jesse, man, you could have. You could have made it a loss for sure. Who knows? I have no idea. Maybe he made like a billion dollars for all we know on his minority. Although I don't, I, I don't know. 50 Cent I think went Bankrupt at some point. So hopefully, you know, you still don't.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Have a lot of room. I mean, you got. He's got, what, $50 billion.

[Doc G]

But that's why I'm planning on winning the game show. My head's not even in this now. Now you dangled something else in front of my face. That's where my brain is.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So, Jesse, you dangled in front of his face. Oh, boy.

[Paula Pant]

Sorry.

[Doug]

He did what?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I can't even say it. You dangled a slightly smaller answer. No, a slightly larger answer in front of his face.

[Jesse Kramer]

I did. I did dangle a slightly larger answer. Definitely larger than originally anticipated. Surprising, even, the amount of dangle. You know, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good about. You know, for some people, it's the. Guess it's probably too much, but for me, it's the right amount.

[Doug]

I mean, if I had. If I had that much to dangle, I. You know, I'd be both proud and a little embarrassed.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But, Paul, you dangled.

[Paula Pant]

I mean, I took the underground.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, my. What just happened? Do we know what just happened?

[Doug]

This is all your fault, Joe.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Doug, quick, get us an answer. Who's gonna win this thing?

[Doug]

Hey, there, Stackers. Get your minds out of the gutter. I'm not that rare coin collector and guy just helping a pal celebrate his B day. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. It's my old pal 50 Cent's birthday today, and to celebrate, we're focusing on how he cha ching the cash register. When Coca Cola bought a company he'd invested in, Vitamin water back in 2007, the question was if 50 cent. And yes, that's exactly how you pronounce his name. Were paid his proceeds for his minority stake in the deal, all in 50 cent pieces, how many 50 cent pieces would 50 cent have received if a woodchuck could chuck the answer? According to both Business Insider and Forbes, $0.50 portion of the payout was a cool $75 million, which means the answer in $0.50 pieces is. This is unbelievable. This is a tragedy. This is the worst possible outcome of all of this. Because the answer is 150 million 50 cent pieces, making Doc our winner. Which means, really, we're all losers because he's helping OG what the hell happened?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right out of the game.

[Doug]

Suck at this, Doc G. You were.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Supposed to come on and lose.

[Doc G]

I'm speechless for once.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Seriously, Doug, when he got it with the first answer, I said, mother.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's like I was listening.

[Doug]

I didn't hear any keyboards. He wasn't googling.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow.

[Doc G]

Doug, I need to give you a compliment here. You're game face. I was like, if I had hit it, Doug would be losing his right now. So I'm like, I must have lost. I was like, I must have lost because Doug's gonna be losing his if I'm right. So I have to give you a lot of credit, man. You maintained that game face.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I saw it just briefly, Doug, by the way, I saw. I think we might have exchanged the look, like, oh, okay, Jesse, you're gonna lose. What do you want to.

[Jesse Kramer]

I felt like I had a chance. You dangled it right in front of me.

[Paula Pant]

It would have been exceptionally funny if we had taken exactly either side. 149 and 150, and it still wouldn't have mattered. We could have done that, and he still won.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And you even debated it. You got so close.

[Doug]

You guys are the lamest coalition of all time.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right, let's wash off from that competition, get to another competition, see if Doc G can actually win two competitions at the same day on the show. That would be a new record. But, Doug, remind us, what was the score of our main competition today?

[Doug]

Well, in third place, we have Jesse with just one point. In second place, we have Paula with two points and Jordan currently leading with three points. And let's just be clear, whoever wins the game show portion of the game wins one point. So the maximum take home today is two points, right, Joe?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's right. So it's a tie.

[Doug]

One point for the trivia and one point for the game show is the maximum take home for this.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jesse and Paula got to step up because you guys at least got to get a tie. And you got to keep pace.

[Doug]

Correct answers in this round are worth three points. So you're all still in it.

[Doc G]

Everybody's got a shot to go first.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Nope. Paul is first. We go back around again.

[Doc G]

Yeah, but you never got. I never went first.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You did go first.

[Doc G]

Then Jesse went first, and then we had a break.

[Doug]

Jordan went first in round two and took the easy investment.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You did.

[Doug]

You took the best.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. The person who's second, Jesse will always.

[Jesse Kramer]

Not remember because it was Paula's idea, Jordan. So it might not have really sank in.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right. Remember the point Jesse gave you?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Typical, man.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right, all right. So the person who won't go first is Jesse. He's going to stay second the entire way. So, Paula, you've got a chance to take the lead and put pressure on these two yahoos.

[Paula Pant]

Yikes. O Pressure is on. Okay, so I Know that this list writer writes in broad generalities.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Seven things you can do that will help you grow your wealth.

[Paula Pant]

So far we have covered earn more, spend less, invest. Oh, what was the other one?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

There was one other Focus on retirement first.

[Paula Pant]

Focus on retirement. Pay for retirement. That's right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It was yours.

[Paula Pant]

That one was mine. That one was mine.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Welcome to Paula the short term memory loss.

[Paula Pant]

I may live to regret this answer. Be properly insured.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Be properly insured. Is that on the list? Check your insurance coverages. This piece goes on to talk about Paula, about that, you know what's going to wreck you building your wealth is that you get disabled, you have a car accident, you have a problem with your, your rental place or the house that you own. Not having good insurance is, creates a lot of horror stories.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

How about that? Jesse, how often do you look at your property casualty insurances, your homeowners renters insurance and, and annually. Annually. Once a year.

[Jesse Kramer]

Annually. Yep. Annual renewal. I might have talked about it here before, but I I re. Two or three years ago I started working with an actual, with a broker who kind of shops around on our behalf and at least, you know, someone to bounce some ideas off of. You know, for all I know, this is one of those things like, you know, how we all kind of have some potential leaks in our financial plan or some holes or some places where we might not be optimizing. I don't know if actually I'm, I'm saving money by using him, but the costs seem reasonable compared to the research I'm doing. And he does shop around on my behalf and we do that every year.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I like a broker because they're looking at lots of different companies, not just one. Paula, how often do you check your property casualty?

[Paula Pant]

Never.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Never.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, there's an opportunity, Paula.

[Paula Pant]

I know I need to get on it. I absolutely need to get on it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Doc G, how about you?

[Doc G]

Every few years, usually something comes up or something happens and we're like, oh, that looks a lot more expensive than we thought it was. And we shop it around and get it cut down until they start raising it again.

[Doug]

Doug, I unfortunately very rarely, probably every three to five years and often I don't do anything about it. But it's inertia's powerful when it comes to insurance and I think they're counting on that because it's a pain in the butt.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, I had an actual insurance agent tell me, you know how sometimes your insurance rate will spike. They have to raise your insurance rate on an entire class of People. And generally what happens is this agent told me was that nothing changed except you had a birthday. And because the insurance company was really focused on this set of people and you're no longer a part of that target group, you all of a sudden will see a rate increase because everybody that has that same birthday has the rate increase. Which is why he said, Jesse, that the answer there of your answer and generally doing it just after your birthday is a great time to take a look. And having a broker makes that very, very easy.

[Paula Pant]

I thought he was going to say the answer is get a fake id.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's perfect. Yeah. Is get a fake ID on this list. That could be side how make fake IDs. No, that is not also sponsored by us. All right, Jesse, Paula now has taken the lead. How often do we get to say that Paula has taken the lead? So, Jesse, you can grab the lead back and be in charge.

[Jesse Kramer]

I don't think I can. I don't think I can grab the lead back.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Kenny, grab the lead back. Doug?

[Doug]

Nope, he's toast.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, Jesse, you can be the spoiler then and take one away from Doc.

[Jesse Kramer]

G. I was gonna say, yeah, I was thinking about just giving an off the wall answer, but I'm gonna go for the lowest hanging fruit. I have a few ideas written down here on my notepad. And I don't think anyone's discussed debt yet. And I have to think that is somewhere on the list.

[Doc G]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Jesse Kramer]

So I'm just going to say avoid debt is minimize debt.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is minimize or avoid debt on the list? It is. Paying down debt is a great step. But Jesse, when you look at paying down debt versus investing, like how does somebody determine which way to go there? And they age old either or question.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I mean the math is just. You kind of look at the rates of return or the interest rates, but then you really do have to think about risk. And so what I mean is that, you know, the mistake that I see too many people make is like, oh, well, if I invest in the stock market, I will get 10% per year because that is a long term historical average. Whereas this debt I have, maybe it's my car loan, is only 7%, so I'd rather invest so I can get the 10 instead of paying down the 7. And the thing they overlook is that the 10 has a lot of risk with it. There's no guarantee that you're going to get 10. Whereas paying down a loan is a guaranteed. Right. A prevention of future debt payments is a guarantee. So if someone's coming to me and saying, should I throw money in the stock market or pay down my 7% car loan, I'm actually probably going to encourage them to pay down the loan. There does get a point when the interest rate's low enough that I actually think it'd make more sense to invest. But there's some gray area, and it depends on the person and their personal risk tolerance, how much they want to avoid debt, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So that's my take, Paula.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Invest or pay down debt.

[Paula Pant]

I'm strongly on the pay down debt side, but I think that that's contextual with the type of occupation that you have.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh.

[Paula Pant]

So for a person like myself, I'm a small business owner. Being a small business owner is a highly volatile income means I have a highly, highly volatile income stream. So I think that for somebody like myself, avoiding debt is more important.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Keeping your cash flow obligation low.

[Paula Pant]

Exactly.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is really the focus for you. Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

Whereas if I were a tenured professor, where I would have a very stable job with very stable income, I think you could take on quite a bit more debt. So I would make that occupation specific.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I love that as an add on, because I love, Jesse, that you said, you know, interest rate might not look the way you think it is, but compare interest rates. And then, Paula, looking at cash flow. Doc G, there's something interesting in your book which really I think is attractive to people as they think about retirement, which for people that don't know, Doc G wrote this great book called the Purpose Code. And talking about what's our purpose in life, you know, bigger than just your occupation. One thing that you and I have shared, which is wealthy people, when they're looking at retirement retirees, they're, they're not dumb, but they still pay off their debt. I think that leaves people a lot more time and energy and focus because you wonder if people know the math, right? They know the math around, hey, this is at a low interest rate. Should I keep it? But they pay it off anyway. It's like the happiest retirees are able to spend more time thinking about their purpose because they kind of don't have these mosquito bites all over them of these, you know, low interest debt payments.

[Doc G]

Yeah. I mean, I think people get to risk mitigation space. Right. When you're getting towards retirement and you are wealthy and you're like, I don't want to spend my time worrying about these possible debts or these possible, as you were saying, mosquito bites. I think a Lot of people start thinking about risk mitigation, which gets back to what Paul was talking about. Depending on what your career is, if you're an entrepreneur in a similar way, you might want to risk mitigate if, you know, you're not having a lot of active new income coming in. Sometimes taking care of that debt and not leaving anything to chance, I think is what even wealthy people sometimes do in these situations.

[Doug]

You know, Joe, I got a question for the Roundtable. I'd be interested to get some feedback from the roundtable on the 6% rule or the 6% kind of as a high watermark for helping you determine when you pay down debt versus invest. I've heard this for years now where if you have debt that is at an interest rate greater than 6%, it probably makes sense to pay that down because there's sort of a gravitational pull there if that debt may grow faster than what you can earn in a conservative typical return in the market. So if you have debt that's less than 6, you know, that's, that's the number I've always heard. What do you guys think about that?

[Paula Pant]

So that number to me sounds a little arbitrary. I might tie that to what is the interest rate that you could get in a high yield savings account or maybe what type of interest could you get from Treasuries? Like, what kind of returns do you think you could get from Treasuries?

[Doc G]

That.

[Doug]

What? I. I bristle at your accusation of arbitrariness. Walla. I've taken umbrage. Oh, I go toe to toe with you and vocabulary.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, wait a minute, Doug. You started off saying this is like a rule of thumb, and now it seems like. Was this a rule of thumb you made up because you're so sensitive about it?

[Doug]

No, no, no, not at all. I haven't made it up. It was. I mean, I don't recall where I heard it, but it has been several years now and I think it's a very, very conservative assumption of what you might earn in the market. You know, we often on the show talk about 8% as a typical long term return on investments in equities in the market. But 6% is just a more conservative version of that. I think that's, that's where that six came from. Not just pick a number out of random and throw a dart at it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I thought you were, you were taking a bridge, to use your words.

[Doug]

I didn't like the accusation because of.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The fact that you made like. It's not your rule of thumb. Doug, you don't need to be mad because you didn't come up with this rule of thumb.

[Doug]

Well, I guess not, but felt like she was, she was sending slings and arrows my way.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, no, I, I didn't mean to imply that you had made up an arbitrary number. It just, I didn't see any rationale behind the specificity of the number six.

[Doug]

Somewhere in there was an apology. And I accept. But anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

[Jesse Kramer]

Jesse, I'm just wondering, and this is something I know you spent a lot of time talking about, Joe, but when you look at the efficient frontier, Joe, of just like stocks and bonds, stock bond portfolio, what allocation has the best risk adjusted return?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Do you know what allocation has the.

[Jesse Kramer]

Best risk adjusted return on this efficient rent here? Because I think if I remember right, it's like depending on what timeline you look at, it's actually like 20 80. It's like 20% stocks, 80% bonds, where.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It starts turning more to the right. You're saying where you're right on the curvature.

[Jesse Kramer]

I think it's like the furthest left point on the efficient frontier.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

To be very honest, I have never paid attention.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, that's okay. So here's my theory, here's my working theory. I think if you pull it up and I'm kind of looking right now, yeah, it's usually around like 75 to 80% bonds, 20 to 25% stocks. And if you look at that portfolio, you can almost do it in your head and you can say like, okay, 80% of bonds, that's like 80% of a 5% return. That's four 20% stocks, 20% of a 10% return, that's two, four plus two is 6%. 6%. So, okay, it's like, I don't know if that's the rationale or not, but I could see someone saying like, hey, my, my reasonably conservative but like mathematically prudent portfolio is 2080 and that's going to give me a 6% long term return.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Now Doug goes, Jesse, 10 bucks.

[Doc G]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, but all this put together really depends on how long term this debt is. So if you're talking about for instance, paying off a mortgage and it's going to be 30 years, that's a probably pretty decent bet. But if you're talking about paying off maybe a smaller amount of college debt or something like that, where it's only going to be over three to five years, statistically, you don't really know how returns are going to be over three to five years. But I like a little bit more chaotic.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. And I think, Jordan, it's even deeper than that. I mean, I like Paula's argument about it also depends on your profession. I like the cash flow argument and I like the retirees argument. Like who cares what the interest rate is? Get rid of it. Like, if you're going to be okay, let's just get rid of it so that you can focus on your purpose and not on this stuff. Jesse, nice job swatting one away and making it harder for Doc G to win this thing on behalf of OG So that means, Doc, there are five left. Doc G gonna win or is Paula gonna take this thing home for the coalition?

[Doug]

Think very carefully about your answer here, Doc.

[Doc G]

Yeah, so basically, right, we're talking about things people can do to build wealth. I know in America what the number one thing people generally do to build wealth. It's actually something I don't necessarily. Wouldn't be the first thing I'd suggest to people. But there's a bunch of other. I have like four or five here. I don't know how to choose between them. I'm gonna say buy a home. I mean, I think that's what Americans do to build wealth. And it is actually the most successful way to build wealth in the United States. So buy a home is my answer.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is buy a home on the list? It is.

[Doug]

He can never come on this show again. Wow.

[Doc G]

Can I say my other ones? I'm wondering if they're right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hold on a second. Let's do that. Let's talk about buy a home first and then we'll talk about the four that you guys didn't get. But buy a home in this piece that even start, by the way, the piece was in Kiplinger and we'll link to it the 11 things you can do to grow your wealth. It even says at the beginning of the piece that a lot of experts will disagree with this and that renting can be a better way to grow your wealth. However, the numbers show historically that homeowners have amassed way more wealth than non homeowners. Now, correlation and causation, I think there's a lot of discussion around why that is, that homeowners have that. And you even said, Doc, you said, I don't know that I agree with this, but buy a home on the list.

[Doc G]

Yeah, I mean, we know statistically it's that way. Statistically we know that that's the way Americans build wealth. Maybe part of the reason is it's for savings. Right. So someone like any of us, we could go rent and we take all that extra money that we're not paying on taxes and that we're not paying on upkeep, and we could put in the S&P 500 and we could come out just as good, if not better, depending on how much that house appreciates. But your average person isn't going to do that. Your average person who doesn't buy a house is going to rent and then spend that money and not invest it wisely. I think that's why Americans build wealth that way.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I got to believe, Paula, you strongly disagree with this one, that I strongly.

[Paula Pant]

Disagree that buy a home is a path to building wealth.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Buy a primary residence is a path to building wealth.

[Paula Pant]

You're correct. I strongly disagree that it is a good path to building wealth, particularly if you live in a high cost of living area. I live in Manhattan. The median price to rent ratio here is 55,0. So price rent ratio means the price of a home divided by what you would pay annually in rent for that Same home is 50. It means that renting is a much better deal in a place like Cleveland where overall citywide, the median price to rent ratio is 11. In Cleveland, it's a very, very good idea to buy. It's a slam dunk to buy. But in Manhattan, it's a slam dunk to rent. So it is highly geographically specific.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jesse, what do you think about this correlation of people that have built the most wealth and the fact that they own homes?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I think it's a really good question because I'm not necessarily convinced that the act of home ownership is the thing that led them to be wealthy. But instead the things they did to be wealthy allowed them to be homeowners. Right. I mean, that's the argument, the correlation.

[Paula Pant]

For causing the correlation of yacht owners who are wealthy.

[Jesse Kramer]

Right, right, right, right. And that's a really good point because it's like depending on what the asset is that we're looking at, that's great. You know, it becomes really obvious now. Homes are a much more kind of broad middle class. You know, a lot more Americans own a home than own a yacht. But I still think that if I had to guess, it's probably like 80, 20. I would bet that the forced savings aspect that, that Doc G pointed out is actually pretty important and is a big factor. But I also think there's some of that going on where it's like, well, these people probably are doing some financially smart things anyway and would have been wealthy anyway. I just, I Have one question, just a point of parliamentary procedure. You said this was a Kiplinger article, right?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes.

[Jesse Kramer]

So I just, I went and looked it up and I did see. So number three, and we talked about this in the show, but number three was prioritize your retirement. And then it spends a lot of time talking about investing in a 401k in. In number three. Just, just wondering about that one.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It does spend a lot of time. But here's the deal. We had three different ones that that answer fit because she said invest in your four. So we had invest. We had prioritized retirement, and then we had a specific one that you guys haven't gotten to yet that is also on the list. And by the way, Jesse, we changed the name of the next one down for this exercise.

[Doug]

Jesse, like an auditor.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I know.

[Doc G]

I do want to go back to one thing about the housing, though, because I think it's important. And I remember, Joe, you and I both interviewed John Hope Bryant, and there are definitely people, especially when they talk about minority populations, that talk about homeownership and building wealth and will point to things like redlining and the inability of minorities to get mortgages as basically one of the main factors in why there's such a despair between wealth between different racial groups. And so I don't know if it's true or not, but certainly there are many people out there who feel that homeownership very positively correlates like a first.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Step on the rung.

[Doc G]

Yeah. And I don't know the answer, and some of that has to do with the appreciation rates of houses over time in certain areas, et cetera. But I think it's a complicated. What. I guess what I'm trying to say is. I have no idea. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I just, I do know that there's a lot of theory and speculation about that being kind of a main divider in wealth.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, and here's the interesting thing on that note, Doc, is that, Jesse, what you said about inheritance, I mean, owning a house where at the very least, the proceeds you pay into the mortgage for, let's say, 30 years and now you have some inheritance for the next generation, can be a way to, at the very least maybe build some intergenerational wealth to get people on the right track that way. I don't know enough about the statistics, but that's an interesting argument.

[Doc G]

There's also tax benefits, too. Don't forget the fact when you sell your house, as you get older, you don't have to pay taxes up to.

[Paula Pant]

A certain percent regarding the intergenerational pass on in rent stabilized areas. Again, I'll use Manhattan as an example. You see that happen with rentals where a rent stabilized rental unit will get passed on from grandparent to parent to child to grandchild. And so because it's locked in at a rent stabilized price, the child or grandchild ends up getting that rental at a significantly below market rate.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And their ability right away to live in a area that might be more conducive to building wealth.

[Paula Pant]

So you get to spend less on housing, which means. Right. You get to live. I know somebody actually.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, it actually could be. It could be both.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, Yeah. I know someone who lives in the Upper west side and his apartment is 1100amonth.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh my goodness.

[Paula Pant]

A beautiful one bedroom apartment. It's on the 18th floor. It's got these gorgeous views. It's $1100 per month. That's what happens when you have something that's rent stabilized that somebody in your lineage has held for decades.

[Doc G]

Yeah, that happened with my family. My grandma lived in the same place in New York for like 40 years and then handed it down to my cousin. And so she lived in a rent stabilized apartment for a while too.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. So I just wanted to make the point that intergenerational transfer can also apply to rentals effect that way.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's interesting, Doc. You said you had some other ones, so I have.

[Doc G]

Should I just rattle them off? I got three or four other possibilities.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Doc G]

Sell things, right. Put stuff up on ebay, et cetera. Another one is. Hold on a second.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hold on. Let's take these. Doug, did sell things make the list?

[Doug]

It did not.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It did not make the list.

[Doc G]

Another one I had was do it yourself. Do it yourself. Instead of hiring someone to do it, people remodel their own houses.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That was not on the list.

[Doc G]

And then last I had was move Geo arbitrage.

[Doug]

My God, you could have picked any of those. Any of those if you'd picked.

[Doc G]

I knew Buy Home was up there because Buy Home is what everyone talks about building wealth in America. Like whenever you talk about anyone, like who's looking at general trends, they'll talk about home buying and building wealth.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So the other one's on the list. Keep investment costs low.

[Doug]

That's annoying.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Polish, your credit is on the list.

[Jesse Kramer]

Polish. I thought it was Polish. I didn't understand that one.

[Paula Pant]

Polish credit. Develop a credit score in Poland.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And Polish, your credit is different, by the way, than check your credit.

[Doc G]

Right.

[Jesse Kramer]

I like that.

[Doug]

You're all weak, ladies and gentlemen.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Actually, what's interesting, the opposite to do it yourself, get help from a pro is on the list. And then the last one we changed slightly because right underneath. And Jesse, you see this on the list because Jesse's looking at the list, it says prioritize retirement. But then the next one is save for the rest of your goals. But then it gets into the idea of use goal based investing. So we changed it so that we could decouple those, change it into use goal based investing, which is really the point of save for the rest of your goals. So those are the four very generic. But you know what? We had a very not generic conversation. And for that I thank all three of you. Let's talk about what's happening where all you work. Let's start off with it's weird calling him the special guest because he's here all the time. Doc G, what's going on at the Earn Invest podcast? Man?

[Doc G]

This week we are having on Daniel Crosby the Soul of wealth to talk about his book and talk about various different investing, saving, earning philosophies. And of course, when you're hearing this, the Monday episode will be a solo episode, a pre episode, usually in run up to that Thursday episode. But since we are doing this in advance, I don't know what it's going.

[Jesse Kramer]

To be about yet.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

When you said Dr. Daniel Crosby is the soul of wealth, I'm like, I think there might be other people.

[Doug]

Wow.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Too.

[Doc G]

It's the book the Soul of Wealth.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That is his book, which is a collection of essays, very thoughtful essays about wealth and just a fascinating guy. Dr. Crosby. Love that guy. Jesse, what's going on at personal finance for long term investors?

[Jesse Kramer]

I've been mixed up these last few weeks and I think the last couple times I was on I was like, oh, we're about to release an AMA episode. And I was wrong. But for now I can say that depending on exactly when this episode publishes, we either recently released or are about to release one of our well received AMA episodes. And then the other exciting thing is I recently wrote a little white paper.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wait a minute, are you. Yeah, did you just say. So if I say AMA episode enough episodes in a row, it'll at some point finally be true.

[Jesse Kramer]

Essentially, it's that when I said it on the last few stacking Benjamin's episodes, I was just misinformed about my own podcast scheduling. Whereas today I am informed.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes. So it is either just happened or it may be happening soon.

[Jesse Kramer]

Correct. It was kind of like back when you were talking about insurance coverage, you said a really good time to check is right after your birthday. Yeah, and I totally agree. Once my birthday hits in those next 12 months, I usually check my insurance coverage.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's such a key. But an AMA episode, you also have another episode coming out with a bunch of contributors that I just sent you.

[Jesse Kramer]

That is true. That is true. So that one I think is going to be. If the AMA just happened, then this next episode that you alluded to will be. I'm calling it the Keeping up with the Joneses where I asked 5, 6, 7 contributors to send me a fun story about a time where they kind of fell into some sort of spending trap. Or maybe they had a really good spending lesson. They, they kept up with the Joneses and realized it wasn't something they should be doing. So a few well known people, I think, including some stacking Benjamin's talent, I got caught there. I was going to say dangle talent contributing to that episode. So that'll be a good one.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's awesome. And that's at the Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast. My contribution, by the way, was, my big mistake was the time I thought the minibar was free.

[Jesse Kramer]

It's a really good story, which is a.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Was a huge mistake. My bad.

[Doc G]

It was free before checkout.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, it was free until it wasn't. And then I realized, well, you got to listen to that episode. But Paula, what's going on at Afford Anything?

[Paula Pant]

Well, before I talk about the Afford Anything podcast, I want to answer a question from somebody in our live audience.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's funny, I always say hi to people. Live audience. And today, been so focused, so focused on.

[Paula Pant]

On running two games simultaneously.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, right, right, right.

[Paula Pant]

Both of which put OG over the top. Carlos asks, hey, Paula, how is your cat doing?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Paula Pant]

So, yeah. So, Carlos, thank you for asking about her. My sweet. For. For those of you who haven't heard, my sweet, beautiful 15 year old cat, Tassie has large cell lymphoma. She has now undergone two rounds of chemotherapy. She's done really well. She has gained weight each week over the past three weeks, which is like, it's hard to gain weight when you're on chemo, but she is gaining weight. Every single checkup, she weighs a little bit more than she did the last time.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, that's fantastic.

[Paula Pant]

So, yeah, that's a really, really good sign. She was supposed to go in for her third round of chemo yesterday. We had to delay for a couple of reasons. So her third round's gonna be next week, but yeah, we'll see. We're taking it sort of a. A week at a time. Overall, her prognosis is between six to nine months. So I'm just trying to give her the best life possible. But that being said, thank you for asking about her. On the Afford Anything podcast, we have an interview with Sebastian Page, who is the chief investment officer at T. Rowe Price, and he talks about leadership. So we actually don't discuss investing per se. We talk more high level about leadership, about personality, about psychology, you know, about all of those quote unquote soft skills that make the big difference.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's funny, I, I always, whenever I hear those called soft skills, like those are some of the hardest skills, right?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow. And that's on the Afford Anything podcast, by the way. Jessica takes umbrage, Doug. Yes.

[Doug]

She lost her shazizzle there, didn't she?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Because it is 50 cent. Not 50 cent.

[Doug]

So I knew I was gonna get somebody's feathers ruffled. And yes, I'm glad I succeeded.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thank you, Jessica. Hanging out with us on YouTube says Jebus Doe finny, all caps screaming just like calling you dough. So good. Well, thanks for hanging out with us. If you want to hang out with us, Normally we're here Wednesday afternoons, but because of some recent travel, we're here on Thursday, but generally Wednesday or Thursday afternoon most of the time around 4pm Eastern Time. All right, that's going to do it for today. Doug, lots of takeaways from this one. What are our big three?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, first take some advice from Paula Pan when she advised using an antifa budget. Paula, can you summarize that for us?

[Paula Pant]

Yes. The anti. Antifa budget, that is antiques for the win. So your budget should be full of antiques, meaning you should go to yard sales, you should go to garage sales. You should buy lots and lots of antique furniture.

[Doug]

I did not catch that the first time. Thank you for clarifying.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And Jesse's like, wait a minute, I can't get away with that. But she can.

[Doug]

Yes. Right. Let's give him a chance to redeem himself right now. Second, Second. Jesse said some smart stuff about deciding when to pay down debt versus investing. Let's see if lightning can strike twice. Jesse, can you remind us what you said?

[Jesse Kramer]

I think we settled on somewhere in that 6 to 7% range is a rule of thumb, break even if your debt is over that you should probably focus on paying down your debt. If your debt interest rate is under that, you might be better off investing.

[Doug]

See, Paula, that's how you do it. But the big lesson, if someone offers you 150 million half dollar coins, here's what you do. You say thank you. You rent a forklift and you clear out a spot next to Joe's mom's canned green beans because that would weigh 3.75 million pounds or about six 747s.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Holy. Really?

[Doug]

Yeah, I did the math.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Holy.

[Doug]

A 50 cent piece weighs 0.4 ounces. So I did all the math. I did a whole bunch of research. 747 stackers and green beans.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Doug's on it.

[Doug]

Yep. Thanks to Doc G for joining us today. You'll find his podcast called the OG Fanboy show wherever you're listening to us right now. He's also got a show called Earn and Invest. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. She's like, oh crap, what's he gonna say? You'll find her totally arbitrary podcast. Afford anything wherever you listen to mid podcasts.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh man.

[Doug]

Yeah, I'm still a little bit raw from that one. Thanks also to the Jesse Kramer for joining us today. You'll find Jesse's podcast Personal Finance for Long Term Investors also exactly where you're listening to us right now. Hey everybody. Pause this and subscribe to all three of them, why don't you? You won't regret it. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh yeah.

[Doug]

And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.