Doug (2:17)

Yes. Lime flavored Kirkland sparkling water coffee. Yeah, that's what I'm drinking.

Joe Saul-Sehy (2:23)

On behalf of the men and women making podcast in Mom's basement and the women and women at Navy Federal Credit Union as we do every Monday, here's a big salute to the troops that kept us safe all weekend. Thank you so much. And now it's all head out and stack some Benjamins together this week.

OG (2:41)

Stack them.

Doug (2:42)

Let's get some stacking going. This is hot, Ray. Symmetrical book stacking. Just like the Philadelphia man's turbulence of 1947.

Joe Saul-Sehy (2:52)

You're right.

Doug (2:53)

No human being would stack books like this. Listen, you smell something? Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and last week, we mourned the death of longtime personal finance columnist Jonathan Clements. But we can do better than that. Today we dive into five of Jonathan's shiniest pearls of wisdom that'll help you create a better financial plan. Plus, we'll answer a question from Stacker Cat with a K, who thought, you know, I'd better call Saul. See? Hi. And OG Kat's worried about her emergency fund and her investments. How should she prioritize them? And don't you worry one little bit, because of course I'm gonna rocket this show into the stars with some absolutely nuclear trivia. And now two guys who are the pumpkin spice of financial podcasting. Well, one is shaped like a pumpkin, and the other is pretty spicy. It's Jo and. Oh, Jaja. Ja, ja, G.

Joe Saul-Sehy (4:17)

I gotta be the spicy one in that one, I think.

Doug (4:20)

Well, I mean, with the mini skirt. Yeah. I mean, naturally, you're the spicy one.

Joe Saul-Sehy (4:23)

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Super happy you're here. We do have a great week of shows this week. We have, of course, our great headline today and those pearls of wisdom, Doug, that you just so brilliantly mentioned. Mel Dorman stopping by to talk real estate on Wednesday. How. How long has it been since we've discussed real estate on the show? It's been two or three days.

OG (4:47)

Yeah.

Joe Saul-Sehy (4:49)

And then our friend Sean Mullaney joins our round table on Friday. But that's what's coming up this week. Who's coming to the mic right now? You heard him. He's here, ready to go. The OG Is with us. How are you, brother? It is super to be back on a Monday, isn't it? Always so excited about getting into stacker land.

OG (5:13)

This is kind of like the middle of the chaos for me. It's fall. We're not to the holiday stuff yet, where it just kind of really. And for us, you know, like the podcast stuff, our chaos is a little different because. Because we, you know, we have to do some recordings ahead of time so we can, you know, enjoy some family time and that sort of stuff. And that'll be crazy too. But all of the stuff right now, like, it just rolls into another week for me. It's like, oh my God, is it Monday already? Like I have like restart my week and yeah, it's so. Yep.

Joe Saul-Sehy (5:41)

I did see a motivational speaker this.

OG (5:42)

Morning though, and other than me, but go ahead.

Joe Saul-Sehy (5:44)

Well, and you guys know this is true. The guy's like, if you nail Monday, and this has been true my entire life. If you nail Monday, the rest of the week it's like running downhill. You just got this momentum. If Monday you've trouble sit, you know, you want the weekend to extend. You're like, what am I doing? You spend the morning trying to get organized, you know, and you're having trouble getting the lead out, you know, getting the rust from the weekend out. Like it is, man. Make the Monday count. So if you're listening, make your bed.

OG (6:12)

It's like the make your bed guy. Just make. Make Monday great again. No. All right.

Doug (6:20)

I can make my bed in like nine seconds. I got to do that for the whole day on Monday. That's asking a lot, Joe.

OG (6:28)

Navy SEAL guy from the.

Doug (6:29)

I understand, but I mean that he's not asking me for much when he just wants me to make my bed to like get off on the right foot. Joe's telling me I got to nail the whole day.

Joe Saul-Sehy (6:39)

Oh, boy, it's, it's going to be trouble for Doug. Well, guess what? What we are going to nail is this headline. Jonathan Clements. A lot of people paying tribute to Jonathan Clements. We did last week, but we're going to do it even more today. Wonderful piece by Ron Lieber in the New York Times. We're going to walk through. So let's get to that. But before that, we have some sponsors to make sure we can keep on keeping on. You don't pay a dime for any of this. We're going to hear from them and then we're going to dive into five pearls of wisdom from Jonathan Clements. This episode is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. Buying a car could be like a long road trip. There's negotiating prices, lots of fees, and a difficult process. But with the auto loan from Navy Federal, you're on the highway to higher savings. We want our members to save more on their next auto purchase. That's why we offer great rates, military discounts, and pre approvals that are good for 90 days. Plus, we offer most decisions in seconds. You could even get $200 when you refinance your auto loans from another lender with us. So if you Want to save more on your next auto purchase? Learn more and apply for an auto loan@navy federal.org auto loans Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Credit and collateral subject to approval. Terms and conditions apply for Military Discounts Refinance Loan must be at least $5,000 to be eligible for the $200. Terms and conditions apply. Visit navy federal.org auto loans for details. Tonight on NBC, Jimmy Fallon and Bozema St. John host the incredible new competition show.

OG (8:16)

I hired 10 creatives from all walks of life. They will be battling it out to.

Joe Saul-Sehy (8:21)

See who can impress the world's biggest brands.

OG (8:23)

This is a huge opportunity.

Joe Saul-Sehy (8:25)

This is the battle for the next big idea.

OG (8:28)

This play Play.

Joe Saul-Sehy (8:29)

We're spending millions of dollars. I'm so excited to embark on this adventure with all of you.

Doug (8:33)

May the best idea win on Brand.

Joe Saul-Sehy (8:36)

With Jimmy Fallon tonight on NBC. For people who don't know who Jonathan Clements is, he was the longtime personal finance columnist at the Wall Street Journal. I knew of Jonathan Clements. We hadn't had him on the show yet. He'd been on the show a few times, of course, throughout the years. But Jonathan before, before I knew him, he started sharing my tweets, which was really wild. It was really neat how you knew you made it.

Doug (9:08)

I wouldn't have thought a man of his caliber was that desperate.

Joe Saul-Sehy (9:10)

Me neither. I was like, you're following what?

OG (9:13)

You must have confused you for someone else.

Joe Saul-Sehy (9:15)

I know that my stuff was actually important. Ron Lieber in the New York Times, writes, Jonathan Clements, Wall Street Journal personal finance columnist who may have done more than nearly anyone who didn't work at Vanguard to bring index funds to the masses, died a couple weeks ago after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis. He was 62. UK native with a dry wit and a sharp tongue for fools who chase stock market fads. Mr. Clements was resolved to see out his days in the wake of his diagnosis, much like he lived them before in a cheerful state of frugality. Five pearls of wisdom that Ron wanted to shine a light on. I love these guys and I thought for our stackers. They these can all help your financial plan so much. So let's dive in. Number one from Jonathan Clemens. Doing the thing you're passionate about is overrated for the young, jonathan writes. When I talk to college students, I don't tell them to follow their dreams, Mr. Clemens wrote in how to Think About Money in 2016. Instead, I tell them to focus on making and saving money. He goes on to consider the assumption that pursuing your passions is better to do in your 20s than. Than in your 50s. I think that's nonsense. He wrote. In fact, I think just the opposite is true. If you can get yourself into great financial shape early, far from a sure thing in some economic environments, you can spend the last quarter or more of your career worrying less about money and more about happiness at work. What do you think about that?

Doug (10:44)

Yeah, I. Oh, okay, fine. Go to OG first.

Joe Saul-Sehy (10:47)

Yeah, yeah. Hey, Doug, you're starting to talk, so I'm going to pivot away from that.

Doug (10:51)

I'm open, I'm open. Go deep, Doug. Keep going.

OG (10:56)

No, next time. No, you got it. Go ahead, Dougie.

Doug (11:01)

Yeah, I love that because the other important piece there is that your passions change and you probably don't have a really great sense of what is truly satisfying your soul at 20 ish versus 50 something. I just think you have a whole different perspective on life. You're much less impulsive later in life and I think not only will you have that financial base to work from, which will allow you to explore more options, but it may not be quite as fantastical, you know, as based in fantasy as it would have been in your 20s if you went off chasing windmills in your 20s. So I love that notion.

OG (11:48)

I'm thinking about this like a 20 year old because I have a 19 year old at home. Well, he's not at home, but I can see his eyes rolling as we talk about career choices and like, yeah, it's not like that anymore, dad though, you know, whatever. And so I get the these old guys don't know what they're talking about type of thing. But I'll give you some real world examples or the way that I think about it from a planning perspective, the idea that I want you to have when you're in your 20s and 30s and maybe even early 40s. It's all about trying to build in the potential for flexibility from 45 on. And like you said, Doug, at the end of the day, maybe the things that you are really excited about will change. But more importantly, you have to recognize that your circumstances are going to change. And when you're 25, you might not know if you're going to be married one day, you might not know if you're going to have a family one day. You might not know if you're going to have a health issue like Jonathan had one day, or you're going to have a family issue that requires, you know, you to move back home, you know, you live in the big city. And now you got to go back to the small town to take care of mom. Or so, you know, there's like, all sort of stuff happens that you don't.

Doug (12:56)

Have any became a Hallmark movie.

OG (12:58)

Well, it is. And then you find your high school crush and turns out she's just recently.

Joe Saul-Sehy (13:02)

Divorced your current boyfriend or girlfriend isn't living up to.

OG (13:06)

Yeah. And then chaos happens. So you don't know any of that. And maybe none of that happens. But the idea is you want to build in the opportunity for flexibility. And so rather than saying, like, don't follow your passion or don't do these things that make you happy, think about it the other side and say, I want to be able to have the flexibility to do whatever I want in my 40s and 50s. And I can point to two examples of this. Recently we have a client who works and has been working for some time, full career, and for many years has been kind of kicking around the idea of being done working. But he likes his job. And recently, within the last year or so, has found something that really he finds way more exciting and interesting than work. Takes about as much time as work, but is a complete volunteer project and kind of a passion thing. Now, we had an opportunity to chat. I don't think he'll mind me telling this story, but we had an opportunity to chat a couple weeks ago. And all the time talking about work, you could almost see it. It was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, work, work. Anyway, but let me tell you about this cool thing. And then we did this, and then I have this, and then we're doing that and then this, and you're like, I can see the difference in the energy here. Like, just go spend time on the energy thing. Well, he's a young guy. He's not 65. He's not retirement age. So the flexibility to be able to do that and to say, hey, I'm going to cut down from full time to 80% so that I can spend more energy on this other thing. That's all because of the decisions in your 30s and 40s. I mean, that's where that happens.

Joe Saul-Sehy (14:33)

Well, and some people are going to ask with that story. Oh, gee. They're like, well, wait a minute. Why doesn't he just go do the thing that lights him up and find a way to monetize it? Like, why doesn't he find a way.

OG (14:43)

To make that going to money and not monetization possible? It's all charitable.

Joe Saul-Sehy (14:50)

I think there's a whole nother way to look at that. Another multiple Time guest of the show, friend of the show, Scott Galloway, had a feeling about this. I want to play this clip from Scott here recently talking about this idea of following your passion when you're young.

Scott Galloway (15:04)

The less sexy an industry, the greater the return on your capital. I mean, we're just talking about the creative industry. You have to be in the top 1%, if not the top point 1%. Last year, 83% didn't qualify for health insurance because they didn't make $23,000. And basically it has almost an 80% unemployment rate. You want to be in modeling, sports, nightclubs, hospitality, fashion, anything that sounds cool. I don't want to crush your dreams, but if you aren't getting bright, bright green signals that you might be in the top 10 1.1%, go do something that sounds much less romantic. At NYU, we invite two types of speakers. One really impressive credentialed people or billionaires. And they always end the session with the worst advice you can give to a young person. Follow your passion. Anyone telling you to follow your passion is already rich. And the guy telling you to follow your passion made his billions in iron ore smelting. Here's what you do when you're young. You want to find out what you're good at and what you could be amazing at. And ideally, in an industry that has a 90 plus percent employment rate, no kid dreams of being a tax lawyer. The top 10% of tax lawyers probably make over a million bucks a year. The top 1% fly private and have a much broader selection set of mates than they deserve because they went into something that didn't have an overabundance of human capital. Every tax lawyer is employed.

Doug (16:16)

My favorite line in that whole thing is have a much greater selection of mates than they deserve.

Joe Saul-Sehy (16:21)

Well, you know, I mean, he advocates a lot for, and talks about how your average person has a problem. The way that we, the way that we date today, we have big problems like trying to find a significant other. So he's like, hey, you want to be rich and you want a bunch of people that want to sleep with.

OG (16:40)

You, hang out with you.

Joe Saul-Sehy (16:41)

Be a billionaire in iron ore smelting, which is boring as hell, but you're good at it. And there's a huge employment rate.

OG (16:48)

That's the biggest thing. Find what you can be excellent and unique at and just make a crapload of money.

Doug (16:56)

And I'll just add one last point to this. And I know we need to move on because we have four other pearls that we need to get to, but there is often an opportunity to find the intersection between the thing that you're good at, that you can earn a living at and make some money at, and the passion. My oldest and I are way, way into music. We've huge broad musical taste. We're constantly sharing music back and forth. We go to concerts with each other. It's just a major happy spot, you know, driving point for us. And when he was in business school and focusing on finance, they had a great speaker come who was in the music industry. And he called me right afterwards and decided, dad, I think I'm going to change my major and go into, go into music. And it was really hard as a parent to squash that excitement that he had. No, but over, but over. But over a couple of discussions, I just said, what about this? What if you stick with finance, which is a hard skill that is can be used in any industry, get your feet stable in the finance industry and then go into music and own a record label or be a major promoter or work for the devil Ticketmaster. But you can take that finance background and be in the industry you want to be in at. Then you get the best of both worlds.

Joe Saul-Sehy (18:21)

I remember when Oscar Munoz was on the show, the former United Airlines CEO, and he was talking about doing that very thing. Doug, he went into finance, he had a degree in engineering, and he did then a business school. So he ends up getting all three areas. He knows the numbers, he knows the people count and where to put people in the right places and logistics. And he knows how the system works because of his engineering background. And that's what you need to be a good CEO. And what's funny is that goes beyond just the degree as well. It goes beyond the degree. It goes into really diving into your career. And Bonnie Hammer, the former vice chairperson for NBC Universal, was on the show on Memorial Day and she talked to this very fact.

Sponsor Voice (19:12)

Those that just basically assume the world's going to be giving to them on a platter just because they went to college, got a decent degree. It's not happening, especially in this world right now. When you think about all the restructures.

OG (19:24)

That are going on right now, you.

Sponsor Voice (19:25)

Think about AI taking over so many jobs, companies being closed, restructured, things changing around us.

Joe Saul-Sehy (19:32)

You can't be that fussy.

Sponsor Voice (19:35)

And if you try different things and try out different opportunities, and it's just going to help you grow and be prepared to move in a variety of different directions.

Joe Saul-Sehy (19:43)

She talked about, Doug, I think what you were getting to, which is follow the opportunity, don't Follow your passion. Your passion might start the journey a little bit. But, you know, like Scott Galloway said, if you want to go into hospitality, tons people are employed or they're not making any money. You have to look for opportunities. She was interested, like you are, Doug, in photography, but photography was going nowhere. It was far more boring than she thought it was going to be. Setting up these ads for, for, you know, corporate accounts. And then she gets this opportunity in television. And so before long, she's working full time in this behind the scenes role in television, making good money for the industry that 25 years ago when she was beginning is rocking. You know, not today not rocking, but back then was rocking. So you have to be open to going where the water's flowing. But Jonathan Clement saying that back in 2016 saying that, I think. What's that? Nine years ago?

Doug (20:42)

What? No. No, it wasn't. You did your math wrong.

Joe Saul-Sehy (20:45)

I know. Isn't that, isn't that horrible? Two years ago, the year before last, 19. Whatever. Jonathan Clement, second one here. Winning isn't everything, but not losing is really something. So what he says here, og, is that you don't need to hit a home run. Everybody's looking at a home run with their money. You know the better thing to do? Stop effing up all the little things. If you automate that makes sure the money goes to the right way, you're not losing dollars in the process. If you re examine your car insurance, your homeowner's insurance, once every other year, you're going to make sure you're not losing there. If you are not panicking during the next market downturn, you're just staying the course. The problem is, is that people get off the. Gonna use that golf analogy again. Even though I'm not a golfer, people get out of the fairway, they get in the bunkers of life, they get behind the trees.

Doug (21:39)

No argument here.

Joe Saul-Sehy (21:40)

You are not a call. Not a golfer. They get in the rough patches because they tried to mix metaphor here. Swing for the fences, right? And they miss.

OG (21:49)

And they end up hit a dungeon.

Doug (21:51)

Joe's out of control, dude, you gotta reel it back in here in the.

Joe Saul-Sehy (21:55)

Third period, they try to slam the dunk. Touchdown. And they get in a bunker.

OG (22:02)

Yeah, I don't know what to do with any of that. It was good for a while.

Joe Saul-Sehy (22:06)

Favorite sports team.

OG (22:06)

It's crazy. I just like it when the Dodgers score a bunch of safeties. Those are really fun. I mean, there are plenty of people out there who make it. Can I say buttload is that an accurate term of money by being super concentrated and, or being super risky and getting lucky. There's a reason why Iger has $500 million net worth or Tim Cook does. It's not because they diversified. It's because they were the CEOs of very giant companies who largely did well while they were there. You know what I mean? And if you would have told Tim Cook to diversify, you know, back in like 1998, like, yeah, you know, I know you got this Apple stock, but we should probably put it in an index fund. He'd have, you know, a tenth of the money that he does now. But for every Tim Cook, there's a thousand or ten thousand other people who aren't lucky, don't have the same volume of stock options who aren't at the top. And all of this, I think, stems from the feeling that you're behind. And if you just squash that idea that I need to catch up for some reason, oh, I'm 30 and I haven't done anything. I need to, I need to be aggressive because I'm a little behind. I'm 40, I haven't done anything. I, you know, I need to need to be aggressive because I'm behind or I'm 50 and I'm behind and I need to do this thing. You don't have the flexibility to do that. You, you can't afford to have another 10 year period where things don't go according to plan. So the only rational solution is to be diversified and stay out of your own way. You know, I would add one more to that. You talked about different ways of investing. I would also add avoiding high interest credit card debt. Yeah, it is profound, the amount of money that you have to make every single solitary month to pay the freaking interest bill on your credit card. You know, it's not the payment. Like, people go like, well, I can afford the payments. Like, but you're not doing anything with that. Like, it's not like it'd be one thing if it was like, it's a payment and I'm paying down the principal, you know, and it's just even at 0%, like, I can, I can sign off a little bit on the 0% stuff where you're like, yeah, I'm just spreading this cash flow out over 12 months. Like, okay, cool, I can kind of wrap my head around that. But when it's a 30% interest rate or 27% interest rate, and you're like, well, I can afford that payment. Payment's only four grand a Month all in. I can afford that. It's like. But you're not doing anything with that. Four of that four, 3,800 goes to the bank. Like you are just literally pissing that $3,800 away every single month. So it's really trying to avoid the big mistake, right? That's the bombing out of the market when it goes down 30% and you can't take it. So you put going cash and you're sitting there waiting, waiting for the market to recover. There's people right now that have, that did that in April. Oh, this is crazy.

Joe Saul-Sehy (24:53)

The tariffs.

OG (24:54)

You don't have any idea. The last time this happened was in 1970. And you know, the market was chaotic for an entire decade. And I'm just going to get out and wait. And they're still waiting.

Joe Saul-Sehy (25:03)

We spoke two weeks ago on Friday about using your 401k butter. We had a fantastic roundtable discussion to help people tweak their 401k choices and decisions. And Jesse Kramer dropped this little nugget about high interest credit card debt and how it might make sense. The only time he might see you skipping the match on your 401k is if you have high interest credit card debt. And I don't know if you guys saw this, but our friend stacker David in the basement Facebook group brought this up and actually did a spreadsheet showing $20,000 in a fund earning 8% per year systematically and a credit card at 25. Now what you know OG is that you don't get 8% systematically. You might get 3% and then 12% and then whatever. So that's going to grow in an uneven way. But that 25%, you're paying off credit card forever. But you only have half the credit card debt that you have at 8% in the market. By year number five, that credit card debt is ahead of even though it started only 50% of the money that you had in the fund. By year number five, it's crossed over and the high interest credit card debt just killed your plan. You now in year number five, you've got 29,386 doll in the fund and your high interest credit card Debt is at 3517 now, not talking about payments and there's some stuff there. But if you just let that high interest roll, you're, you're, you're dying. It's ugly. Let's move on to number three on this, which is. Jonathan wrote also famously, the text man favors the patient quote the tax Code is stacked in favor of savers. Mr. Clements wrote in the Little Book of Main Street Money. This is awesome. It was one of the big takeaways for me, not just in Jonathan's writing, but also in a book that I have a love hate relationship with called Rich Dad, Poor Dad. They talk about this idea of tax savings over long periods of time and about how taxes can be such a friction. But oh gee, if you're a saver, your money works so much more efficiently than you can. Like the payroll tax. There's so many taxes on a payroll tax versus the tax that your money pays. That man, having a bunch of money go to work for you every day just lets that compounding happen much faster than if you just try to get raises at work.

OG (27:35)

I do find it interesting. People say like, well, I'm only in the 22% tax bracket plus the state, plus FICA, you know, so you're really in the 35ish percent, you know, 30, 32ish maybe, depending on what state you live in. And contrasting that to somebody who says, well, I don't want to rebalance this because then I have to pay a little bit of taxes on this, or I don't want to sell that because I've paid. It's like this is the cheapest money you can possibly pay taxes on.15% straight to your point. Like, like it's done right. Even on retirement distributions. You just pay federal taxes on there. There's no employment taxes.

Joe Saul-Sehy (28:10)

Right.

OG (28:10)

There's no FICA on that as well. So yeah, investment taxes are, are the best taxes there are. And I was reading a post the other day on a finance blog and one of the questions was, when do you start noticing the compounding? You know, I'm saving money, I'm investing it. I'm at X dollars. I don't remember what the author said, maybe a hundred thousand or something. So like when do you notice that it's kind of that snowball starting to work? Somebody said that for them it was around 3 or 400,000 because a simple 1% move in the market, which happens somewhat frequently at 400,000 is a $4,000 day. And the person who responded was like, that's more money than I make in a week. So when my money, I look and I go, golly, this thing, even a quarter point change in a day is a thousand dollars. That's a full on second paycheck. The market's open 270 days a year. So if your money makes a thousand bucks a day, you know, That's a pretty, you know, that's $270,000. That's, you know, more than most people make every single year. Obviously, it's not linear like that, but you get the idea. Just you have to keep on doing the systematic stuff. And there is a day coming where you're looking, you'll go, wow, my money made more money than I put in. My money made more money than I made. My money made more money than I made for the last two years. You know, it's like you just have to follow the process when it comes to saving and investing and let that little teeny, tiny snowball start working in your favor.

Joe Saul-Sehy (29:44)

Number four on Ron Lieber's list of pearls of wisdom from Jonathan Clements. Want to enjoy life more. Mr. Clements wrote in From Here to Financial Happiness. Put down the remote back slowly away from the television and do something where you're a participant, not an observer. Oh, gee. This isn't just about having more money. In fact, it's funny. The show's called Stacky Benjamins, but really we take a wider view, right? We're looking at Benjamin's life. Look at all the things Benjamin Franklin did, not the money that he had. Stacking Benjamins is truly about stacking more life. And looking back at Jonathan Clemens, you don't know when all of a sudden, you know, the. The reaper comes, right, Shows up at your door and says, it's your turn. You don't know that. So stack those experiences.

OG (30:28)

Adventures, maybe.

Joe Saul-Sehy (30:29)

Yeah, stack those adventures. Number five is no, really. Do something. Four and five. Lieber's like, no, really. Let's put an exclamation point on this quote. There's a reason the world's gardens are full of benches that nobody ever sits on, Mr. Clements wrote, and how to think about money. We aren't built for leisure, built to relax. Rather, we're built to strive. This realization can be key to a happier retirement, given how much we humans love the feeling we're making some kind of progress. Retirement can be like a kind of continuation of one's career. We still need fulfilling work, he wrote. The only difference in retirement is we don't have to worry so much about whether it comes with a paycheck. Now, OG and this goes back to point one, right? Now that your buddy has the flexibility to do this thing, that lights him up, it's still work. But now he's glowing. And who cares if there's not a paycheck attached? It doesn't. It doesn't matter. But you're still accomplishing something.

OG (31:25)

Yeah. And that goes back to the first point, which is all about flexibility. You know, just vacay when the sun shines, try to think about the future a little bit and squirrel some away for a later time. Do it in a manner that's repeatable and systematic and keeps you out of the ditch most of the times and let the process do its thing for two decades and you'll wake up and go, oh, I have all this money and this flexibility and I can choose my own adventure from here.

Joe Saul-Sehy (31:51)

Jonathan had a great point about this the last time he was on the show, which was he said that you really have two choices. You can live it up in your 20s when you don't have much money and you can go to nice places, you can spend a ton of money, but realize you're not going to be able to do that later. Then you're going to be locking down the later years of your life. There's no free lunch for 99.9% of us. On the other side, you can be very frugal when you're young. You can squirrel that money away. And not only OG does that give you the flexibility later on, but it also, and I love when Jonathan said this, you're nearly as happy out camping as you are at the Four Seasons, because you did camping when you were in your 20s. But now you can also stay at the Four Seasons, which Jonathan said, I do a lot now and it's really nice. It's super fun. But if I ever want to go back to camping, it's different than if I partied hard in my 20s and I only did the four seasons. I'd be like, oh, campground. Well, gross.

Doug (32:53)

Can't do that now you're camping unwillingly.

Joe Saul-Sehy (32:56)

Right?

Doug (32:57)

You would be right because you'd have no money to do anything else.

Joe Saul-Sehy (33:00)

Right. Great points there, Mr. Lieber. Ron Lieber nails it as always. We will link to Ron's piece in the New York Times in our show notes@stacking benjamins.com and of course in our newsletter, the 201. Not only do we have a guide to Wednesday's interview with our mentor Mel Dorman, but we also are going to dive more into this headline as we do every week in the 201. Stacking benjamin.com 201. Time for us to take a quick break for Doug's trivia so you can be the smartest person at the virtual water cooler on your next zoom call. Doug, how are you going to help people get smart this week?

Doug (33:33)

I have no idea. Joe. But let's find out. Sometimes I just stumble upon stuff. Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and on today's date, I learned that people discovered potassium. I'm sure. Yeah, it had been there the whole time. But before October 6, 1807 and some dude named Humphrey Davy, everyone thought some foods just tasted really good. They didn't know that they contained potassium. That sounds great. I'm gonna go grab a potassium filled food right now and eat it while seeing what Joe's written me for trivia. Okay, well, that's. Yeah, that's good. That's. That's a good one. Okay, there's that question. Here. Here it is right here. What is the potassium filled food that has so much potassium in it?

Joe Saul-Sehy (34:26)

So much potassium.

Doug (34:29)

That's. Oh. Whoa. That they're technically radioactive because of how much potassium they contain. Oh, God. Oh, gee, not for nothing, but am I glowing right now?

OG (34:45)

It's the lotion.

Doug (34:47)

I'll be back after I go see if everyone needs protective coverings now. Can't be too safe around Joe's master.

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Doug (36:32)

Hey there, stackers. I'm former potassium lover and guy who may be a basement based Chernobyl problem chose mom's neighbor Doug. Well, either it hasn't worked its way through my body yet or my stomach is every bit as solid as they tell me down at the Sizzler after my third shrimp platter. But my question was this. What food was I just eating that is so potassium rich that technically it's radioactive? The answer? Of course it's bananas. I mean like the fruit, not crazy. It's bananas. And now two guys who are bananas for a good solid exchange traded fund, Joe and Og.

Joe Saul-Sehy (37:15)

Oh check this out guys. We just got a letter. We just got a letter. We just got a letter. Wonder who it's from. Kat sent us a note and said hey Joe, longtime listener Stacky Benjamins. I have a question that I thought could be an interesting one to debate. So gee, ready to debate? Let's debate.

OG (37:37)

Doug's a master debater.

Joe Saul-Sehy (37:38)

It was I was recently laid off and given a severance of three months. If Doug doesn't stop debating so much, he will go blind.

Doug (37:47)

Go blind.

Joe Saul-Sehy (37:48)

I was recently laid off, given a severance of three months. Since I live frugally and I have a small side hustle, I should be able to stretch that severance to six months. However, having seen the writing on the wall given the industry I'm in is a downward spiral. I have one year of expenses saved in my high yield Savings account, making 3.75% in interest. My thought and question is to take the chunk of money from my severance and put it my brokerage account, which averages 9.2 in growth currently and draw from the one year of emergency savings only making 3.75 seems like simple math to me.

Doug (38:22)

God, no. God, please no, no no no.

Joe Saul-Sehy (38:31)

But is there something more I should be considering before I take the plunge? If it's valuable to the question and conversation, the current job market. My industry's dim with most executives at my level taking approximately 18 months to find another position. However, I do have a side hustle that brings in between 30 to 50% of my needed monthly nut. So realistically, I can likely make this one year emergency fund last 18 to 24 months provided no other emergencies happen. Also, I'm not necessarily interested in returning to my industry. It's too unstable for my taste. And while I'm keeping my options open and applying to jobs in my current industry, I will also be devoting my fun employment time to building my side hustle a new full time thing. So, thoughts? 9.2. That's greater than 3.75. Is that all I need to consider? So I think halfway through that question, we got OG's take. But OG, why? To quote you and Michael Scott. Oh, God, no.

OG (39:27)

No.

Joe Saul-Sehy (39:27)

Oh, God, no.

OG (39:30)

The reason is because of all of the things that she mentioned before. I don't know what the future is going to hold. I don't know if I can find work. I'm pretty confident that I can do this. Why wouldn't you want to have the continued flexibility and safety of being able to extend that and not have to go find work? Because the risk that you run in a relatively short period of time is you take that severance money. And I'm going to say. I'm going to say you made $10,000 a month, and so your severance check is $60,000. There's a very real chance that you can take that $60,000, dump it in the market, and five months from now, when you are out of cash, or eight months when you're out of cash and you're like, I'm going to go back to this other account, that 60,000 is worth 40. Very much can happen in that short period of time. Now, if you said, I've got 10 years on the 60,000, okay, I believe that in 10 years from now that 60 will be worth 120 that I will sign off on, but I can't promise it in the next 10 weeks or 10 months. And the impact is so profound in terms of how that affects you from a cash flow standpoint and from being able to extend your unemployment. You know, to be able to find the thing that you really want to do or to build up the side hustle to make it your main hustle. Or like, you need to have that Runway in case everything doesn't go exactly perfect. And the other thing that I would think about here is, what exactly are you getting? Like, what's the delta? And just to make math easy, I'm going to say it's 4% and 9% just to. So I can do it in my head. If you put that $60,000 and you're making 4%, that's 2,400 bucks, right? So you got $2,400 sitting in the account. If instead you make 9%. So nine times 60,000 is $5,500, $5,400. Right. The Delta here is three grand. I get that. That's not zero. $3,000 is not an insignificant amount of money. But what do you gain? You gain three grand of potential return. You know, four versus nine in exchange for minus 30, potentially happening, you know, where you're 60 turns into 42,000.

Joe Saul-Sehy (41:37)

Like that's not a good trade specifically to our new stackers, because there is a piece og that I think you jumped right over, which our experienced stackers already know. But new stackers might be going, wait a minute, Cat didn't say anything about the market. They just said 9.2 versus 3.75 and 9.2 is higher. You immediately went into, well, that means it's in the. How do you know that Kat's talking about a market and the potential for loss when she says 9.2%?

OG (42:09)

Well, because there's nothing else that would have that. There is no savings account that pays 9. There's no CD that pays 9. There's no guaranteed outcome at 9. And the reason you know that is because all the banks are paying 3. If, if, if all the banks are paying 9, then the stock market will be producing 20, because there still has to be that delta there.

Joe Saul-Sehy (42:29)

But, and I think that's the key here that you're Getting at is 9.2 carries risk a profound amount.

OG (42:34)

You know, on the surface you say, well, nine is better than three or nine is better than four. And it is, if you extrapolate it for the next 30 years, you know, if you said, well, I could put this money here for 30 years and I get nine or I get four, like which one's better? You know, you eliminate virtually all of the volatility risk because it's a 30 year time horizon. And the compounding effect of growing at 9 instead of 4 is profound. But in a 12 month period, you have all the volatility risk, all the ups and downs, and you don't get a lot of compounding benefit in that time. I understand that it's still more money. 3,000 bucks is maybe another month worth of expenses. But the trade is I might get a minus 18. You would never go to the casino, you would never play a game where you said, I'm going to give you either $3,000 or you give me 18 and any number in between there. We're going to just roll a dice and whatever comes up is going to be what it is. Because you look at that, you go, the number scale doesn't work. I'm plus 3 on one side and minus 18 on the other. There's so much more minuses than pluses. It's not worth it. If you take that timeframe and make it from a year to 30 years, you go, I'm going to give you, you know, plus 100 or plus 85, you go, well, okay, I'll take that deal. Like, there is no downside to me ever. This has too much more. Too much downside. So anyways, I just belabored that. Too much. Michael Scott said it best.

Joe Saul-Sehy (44:08)

Well, I don't think you belabored it too much at all, because this goes back to Jonathan Clements earlier today. We think we need to hit a home run. We think that we need the 9% where the potential outcome is so bad. If there is another emergency, Cat said, if there's not another emergency, this will be great. There's always another emergency.

OG (44:28)

And she's right. Yeah. If there is no other emergency, it would be awesome.

Joe Saul-Sehy (44:32)

Yeah. And if we knew 9.2 was a straight line, which we also know it's not.

OG (44:37)

What's the phrase? If hopes and butts were coconuts or something? I don't know.

Joe Saul-Sehy (44:41)

Wow. That was back to your second grade teacher.

OG (44:43)

Somebody said that.

Joe Saul-Sehy (44:44)

Is this a lesson? So she got in second grade. I want to talk for a second about something Cat's doing, though, that's really good that I think a lot of stackers forget about. And we gloss over this all the time, but, you know, we talk about these little fundamental moves. They don't make a lot of money, but they give you stability. And while you have stability, you actually are getting a little bit of a return. So you said $3,000 isn't insignificant, but there's all that risk attached to it. Oh, gee. For people that are leaving a bunch of money in their checking account or at a savings account with a major bank, the fact that Kat has a high yield savings account paying 3.75% is fantastic. Like that is. That's probably the optimal place for her to. Well, I think that is the optimal place for her to be with this money and to add that money to. But having that high yield savings account, we forget about this advice all the time, but go get one if you don't have one. What are you. What are you waiting for? This is free money you're giving away, correct? Yes.

Doug (45:47)

Well, I actually was just thinking of as OG was recommending that to me. I don't know, three, four years ago, you know, I had the standard savings account and checking account with my primary bank. He's like, you got to move most of that to a high yield. And initially, I wasn't comfortable with moving most of the savings to a high yield savings until two things. One, the one that he recommended had great flexibility. Like, I could Move money overnight. And he just said, what's the biggest check you think you're ever going to have to write? Like overnight in, in less than 24 hours? It's not as big as you think it is. I mean, you're not going to have to write a $7,000 check like this afternoon because something happens. If it's a co payment, you know, on your insurance for your car or something like that, or deductible, you got time on that one to transfer money from your high yield back to a more transactional system that you can write a check out of. So really a vast majority of your savings, if not entirely all of it could be in a High yield savings account because they're so flexible and fluid now. They didn't used to be.

Joe Saul-Sehy (46:55)

I don't think it was the same thing, Doug, with Cheryl at first when we got our High Yield Savings. Guys, I don't think I want to do this.

Doug (47:01)

Yeah, feels weird.

Joe Saul-Sehy (47:01)

And then she did it with a little bit of money that she thought was, quote, extra money. And I would say within three months, almost all the money went into the. She's like, why did I wait so long for this? Now not a sponsor of the show. We have no affiliation with this company. I use Ally. I really like it because we can use buckets inside of 1, 1 high yield savings account and I can bucket our money. So we've got this for the next trip fund. We got this for our home improvement fund. We're doing a big home improvement project right now. And you know what's cool, Doug, to your point is that every other week on this project, the builder comes to us with the money he needs for the next two weeks, right? He's like, hey, I've got this. That is due on today. If I can pick up a check. And Cheryl tells him every time. She's like, great, I'll give you a check. Can you hold it till Monday so she can transfer the money to la? This is going to come as a big shock, Doug. Guess what the builder says every single time. Yes. Yeah, of course.

Doug (47:57)

Right?

Joe Saul-Sehy (47:57)

No problem. Yes, I will. So we hand him the check after we transferred over to our regular bank where we can write the check out. It's super easy, super duper easy. I want to address Cat, you going into the side gig because, you know, you spent a lot of time talking about how much you may not want to go back into this field that you were in. This idea of turning your side gig into your full time gig, I think is a great opportunity. I love it when somebody opens up a whole different chapter of their life to try out the thing that they always wanted to do. A book I'm reading about that right now is written by one of the creators of Doug, a coffee firm that's up by where you are. Not OG where you and I are in Texas, but up in Michigan. One of the creators of Big B Coffee.

Doug (48:43)

Oh, no kidding.

Joe Saul-Sehy (48:44)

Big B Coffee. Expanding all the time. Love going into Big B Coffee. By the way, also not a sponsor of the show. I would love it if Big B Coffee sponsored us, because I like that. But this. This guy wrote two really good books. First one is called Grind Get It Coffee. But it's about when you have a new business that you're trying to make succeed. And I feel like as I'm reading this book, it's all the advice I would have wanted to give to a new entrepreneur that if I had it to do over again, I would have done. Everything it says in this book, it is so good, and it gets rid of all the horrible stuff that you see failed entrepreneurs preach. Like, as an example, everybody in a big business is great at everything about massaging the product, making the product look better, making the product feel better, taste better, whatever it is. You know what the number one job is, Doug? Sales.

Doug (49:35)

Oh, yeah.

Joe Saul-Sehy (49:36)

Number one. He goes. But in a big business, nobody's good at sales. You got a lot of great people who can do a lot of great stuff, but the one thing you need to get comfortable with and get good at is sales. Because if you don't have sales, you don't live.

Doug (49:49)

Yeah.

Joe Saul-Sehy (49:50)

Period. Full stop.

Doug (49:51)

My mind immediately went to what I think of as an analogous mindset of Dan Gilbert when he was building up Quicken Loans. It's now the rocket companies, but as listeners may have heard, I. I worked there for a while, and he said, I could put a lot of you smart people in a room and you could figure out how you could save, you know, a couple thousand dollars a month on coffee to stick with that, because he used that as an analogy, and we could find a cheaper supplier for our coffee. But I'd rather take those same smart minds and put you in a room and figure out how we can generate.

Joe Saul-Sehy (50:27)

More revenue, more business.

Doug (50:29)

Yeah. So it's not always sales, like, because you may not have a sales role in your title, but there are ways you can think about generating revenue in the role you're in. And even not. I mean, how. How much would a company appreciate your enthusiasm to think outside of your role? And how the company.

Joe Saul-Sehy (50:49)

Those are always the most valuable people in any company.

Doug (50:51)

Absolutely.

Joe Saul-Sehy (50:52)

But if you're the founder, you are most often, even when you have your first three or four people working for you, you're going to be the salesperson. You're more passionate than anyone about it and you can't afford to delegate sales to somebody else. You need that to come in. And if, you know, if I hired Doug to do it and he takes a day off to eat bananas and go nuclear, well, then we've gotta, we.

Doug (51:14)

Gotta sign the contract, Joe. I get to do that.

Joe Saul-Sehy (51:17)

See, it's exactly what I'm talking about. But anyway, Cat, good luck with the business and love, love, love this question. If you've got a question for us, you know what? You can call in stacky benjamins.com voicemail is the way to call us. And if you call, we're going to send you some swag. And you see our sweet new store, the stacker supply company, stackinbenjamins.com swag. What a fun store. We were looking at it together, Doug and Tina and I yesterday.

Doug (51:47)

Just right behind how great some of those swag items are, the products are, is the writing. Like just go to the website just to read some of the descriptions. The team has just knocked it out of the park. There's some really clever stuff in there.

Joe Saul-Sehy (52:02)

It's so damn over the top. Yeah, it's so over.

Doug (52:05)

I mean, that's not us at all. We know it's not on brand, but they just went their own direction.

Joe Saul-Sehy (52:10)

Just another boring financial podcast. What's going on in the neighborhood? Doug, before we say goodbye.

Doug (52:16)

Yeah, Joe. One thing I want to make sure we point out is we've got another great meetup group. A Stacking Benjamin's group that has started and we definitely want to give props out to Chris for putting that all together.

Joe Saul-Sehy (52:29)

Chris and our buddy Cole Ferrier. Chris and Cole doing a great job with help from Stacker Rebecca, who actually founded this group, came up with the idea and wanted to get it rolling. So it's rolling this coming month.

Doug (52:41)

I think it's like a week from Tuesday. So October 14th, the Seattle group is meeting at the Poodle Dog restaurant in the bar. So I'm already a fan of this group because they're just getting straight to the good stuff. 7:00 clock specific time at the Poodle Dog restaurant in the bar. And it's in Fife, Washington, which is down kind of Tacoma ish. Gig harbor ish.

Joe Saul-Sehy (53:06)

On the way to Tacoma.

Doug (53:07)

Yeah, yeah, right. So if you're anywhere in the Pacific Northwest. I mean, it's so close to everything in the Pacific Northwest. It's easy to travel around. I mean, you're in San Francisco, just drive San Fran, as they like to say. Just get there, get to the park.

Joe Saul-Sehy (53:22)

That's all you got to do.

Doug (53:23)

Yeah, just try. I mean, it's like New England, right? Everything's 20 minutes away. But anyway, if you're anywhere in the, in that area, get to the poodle dog restaurant, 7 o' clock on October 14th and go straight to the bar.

Joe Saul-Sehy (53:35)

It's perfect. And by the way, our Twin Cities group. So now we have two meetup groups, Seattle and Minneapolis St. Paul. Just put in Stacking Benjamin's Twin Cities or Stacking Benjamin Seattle. Go join those groups. We also do online activities with each of these groups. So we get everybody together, have a great time, meet like minded people.

Doug (53:55)

Yeah, for sure do that. But Joe, we also, before we finish our drinks here on the back porch, there's some really big stuff happening with guides, right?

Joe Saul-Sehy (54:03)

Oh yeah, the guide update. Every month we update these guides. So if you are somebody who gets the guides, guess what, go to your email, make sure it's not in your spam. If you have the company benefits guide, we just added professional development. A lot of companies pay for professional development. Even if they don't. We've got this great checklist to try to get your boss to send you to professional benefits, to conferences, to whatever it is. I got to use this checklist with OG every time I want to go to fincon or any other thing. So I thought that we'd make a checklist on the tax guide. Man, the obbb. We keep digging into this thing and people keep coming out with, oh, here's another creative way to use it. Here's another way. So we dive into Trump accounts, more child tax credit changes, good stuff out of the OBB in this month's guide and then in the College Planning Guide, October 1st, the FAFSA. You can finally send in your FAFSA. And here's the deal with the FAFSA that people, if you're new to this idea of college, you may not know financial aid is first come, first serve. They don't wait till everybody submits their stuff by X date. And they compare years with everybody else. They evaluate yours on the merits of does it fit or not. And if it does, they give you the financial aid, they allocate it to you. So these funds do run out of money. So if you think that there's any chance for financial even if you don't think there's a chance for financial aid, you want to fill out the FAFSA. October 1st was the first day that you could do that last week. So got to get on it. By the way, on Wednesday, Doug, Robert Farrington from the College Investor and I are going to do a FAFSA 101 for people to get comfortable with this. So if you're brand new to this FAFSA game, join us stacky benjamin.com FAFSA and that's going to be a YouTube live event Wednesday the 8th. Yep. In two days. So two days, 8:30pm Eastern, 5:30 Pacific. And sign up. As I said, stacky benjamin.com Fafsa it'll be about an hour long as we intro this and make it a little less scary.

Doug (56:09)

Joe before we're done on the back porch, I have to say Michelle posted perhaps the greatest dad joke of all time in the basement. She said, what do you call a man who has finished digging?

Joe Saul-Sehy (56:20)

I don't know.

Doug (56:20)

Doug.

Joe Saul-Sehy (56:21)

Doug.

Doug (56:21)

The best joke of all time.

Joe Saul-Sehy (56:23)

Hold on a second.

Doug (56:24)

That thing needs a whole drum solo.

Joe Saul-Sehy (56:26)

On that great note. Thank you. Who. Who posted that? Michelle.

Doug (56:29)

Michelle.

Joe Saul-Sehy (56:30)

Nice job, Michelle. Thanks to Michelle. Thanks to everybody for lending us your ears. Coming up on Wednesday, we're back talking about real estate that we haven't talked about in a few months. Mel Dorman's here. She had a amazing TEDx video that went viral with her incredible story. She's gonna talk about helping your community and helping yourself at the same time. So wonderful story from Mel that you've got to hear. But the first thing you got to hear to get out of this episode are the three things that should be on your to do list now that our time here is done. Doug.

Doug (57:00)

That's right, Joe. First, take some advice from Jonathan Clements. Don't follow your passion. Follow what you're good at and exploit that advantage. Extra points if you choose something boring. Second, take a big win that Katz had that emergency fund. Keep it in a high yield savings account. Sure, it isn't huge money, but it could pay for a few more groceries each week. But the big lesson. You know how Imagine Dragons have that song where they say they're radioactive? Who knew they were that big on bananas? Coming up on Wednesday, we're talking real estate. It's been months since we've covered that topic. Mel Dorman gave a huge moving TEDx talk about her real estate journey. Now she's coming down to mom's basement to chat about helping build your Community and your life using something called seller financing. How does it work? She'll share on Wednesday, so don't miss it. This show is the property of SP Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025, and is created by J. Joe Saul Sehi. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome team@stackingbenjamins.com along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh, yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

Joe Saul-Sehy (58:56)

SA saw some weird news over the weekend, gents. In the Czech Republic, they found an envelope from Czechoslovakia's founding father. Listen to this.

Doug (59:44)

Did it have the original recipe for Chex mix?

Joe Saul-Sehy (59:47)

Well, that's the thing. This is from Prague. Unknown musings of the founding father of an independent Czechoslovakia's first president, Tomas Garig Messeric. I'm sure our Czech fans are gonna say, Joe, you missed on that one. Are believed to have been unearthed. An envelope whose existence was unknown to living members of the family was unveiled at a live broadcast two Fridays ago with President Peter Pavel in attendance. Speculation squirreled about what it may contain. Guess what they decided to do? They decided that they wouldn't open it for another 20 years. So they're not going to open it for 20 years. I think we should speculate as stackers. About what? What's in that envelope.

Doug (60:38)

Yeah, I think in 20 years, this is going to be a Geraldo Rivera moment.

Joe Saul-Sehy (60:42)

It totally is my first choice for this one, Doug. They're going to open it up. They're going to have all the nation's TV cameras on it. And the top line is going to say toilet paper. The next one's going to say cheese slices. And the third line is going to say birthday card for mom. It's like a grocery list or something.

OG (61:00)

Or the ink will have run out somehow and, like, go like, ah, I guess we can't read it after all. We should have done this 20 years.

Doug (61:05)

Ago to see the ink all faded. Yeah.

Joe Saul-Sehy (61:10)

What if it says, like, invest everything in a Roth ira? Like this is scribbled down, but only if you don't have an hsa. And then it says republic.

OG (61:18)

Thing is a really terrible idea. We should go back to communism.

Joe Saul-Sehy (61:25)

I have no idea what a Roth IRA is or an hsa, but that sounds good. Or don't under any circumstances loan money to cousin Pavel.

OG (61:34)

Bitcoin. Ftw.

Joe Saul-Sehy (61:36)

Bitcoin. I got this idea for a cryptocurrency. Well, I guess we'll find out in 20 years what's going on.

Doug (61:46)

We'll still be making podcasts.