8 Signs You're Winning With Money SB1854

Summary

The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: 8 Signs You're Winning With Money (SB1854)

Date: June 12, 2026
Host(s): Joe Saul-Sehy & Josh “OG” Bannerman, CFP (OG not present)
Guests: Paula Pant (Afford Anything), Jesse Kramer (Personal Finance for Long Term Investors), Anthony Weaver (About That Wallet)

Episode Overview

This lively episode dives into the "Eight Signs You're Winning With Money," with personal finance experts offering both practical and psychological insights into what true financial progress looks like—beyond flashy displays of wealth. Drawing inspiration from an article on wisdom.com, the crew challenges the conventional “rich on Instagram” narrative, instead focusing on small but meaningful financial wins. As always, the Stacking Benjamins trademark blend of fun and function keeps things engaging and informative.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Instagram Wealth: Myths vs. Reality

• Hosts and guests kick off by examining how social media distorts our perception of wealth.
  • Anthony Weaver: “You see those nice drone footage... you just sitting home in your couch... man, I wish I could be there… They never explain how they did it.” (11:02)
  • Jesse Kramer: “It’s a highlight reel... If all you do is watch the top 10 on SportsCenter, you’ll get a false understanding of what sports look like.” (11:48)
• Key Takeaway: “Ostentatious displays are often rented or staged—don’t judge by the Instagram highlight reel.”

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2. The 8 Signs You're Winning With Money

Inspired by wisdom.com’s article, the panel breaks down eight meaningful financial milestones:

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Sign 1: You Can Handle a $1,000 Emergency

• Statistic: Almost 60% of Americans can’t do this.
• Anthony: “A thousand dollars can really go a long way… Even with inflation, you can still get a tire replaced…” (13:31)
• Paula: “If you have enough to cover a thousand, you are doing better than most Americans.” (14:15)
• Jesse: Details the value of a larger emergency fund depending on job security. (14:54)

Timestamps:

• [13:31] – Anthony Weaver on emergency funds
• [14:15] – Paula Pant on appreciating financial progress

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Sign 2: Your Debt-to-Income Ratio Is Under 36%

• Jesse: “Those rules of thumb—they're very broad, generic… If you draw the number at 36%... I’d still want to know more.” (18:01)
• Discussion: Mortgage debt is nuanced; context matters.
• Paula: “Would you rather have low debt and no savings, or higher debt and a million-dollar portfolio?” (19:11–20:13)

Timestamps:

• [18:01] – Jesse on DTI ratio rules

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Sign 3: You’re Not Living Paycheck to Paycheck

• Paula: “At the lower end of income, it’s almost inevitable… this needs to be contextual.” (21:23)
• Jesse: Connects the idea to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs—a foundation for financial stability. (22:02)

Timestamps:

• [21:23] – Paula Pant on context for paycheck-to-paycheck
• [22:16] – Jesse Kramer on foundational stability

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Sign 4: You Stop Comparing Yourself to Others

• Jesse: “Build the life you want, not someone else’s highlight reel… There are ways where your desire to not be a social outcast via personal finance choices can get you into trouble." (27:02)
• Anthony: On budgeting intentionally and resisting FOMO purchases for status. (29:14)
• Paula: “Comparison can be motivating… If it’s handled the right way.” (30:08)

Timestamps:

• [27:02] – Jesse on psychological impact of comparison
• [29:14] – Anthony on purchasing for validation

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Sign 5: You Have Good Financial Habits (Automation, Regular Review)

• Jesse: “Create a system, make it automated, try to remove your fallible human self out of the system…” (44:21)
• Anthony: Automation is especially important for those without early exposure to investing. (46:26)
• Paula: Specifically highlights automated retirement investing and building friction to prevent access. (47:56)

Timestamps:

• [44:21] – Jesse on systems over willpower
• [46:26] – Anthony’s personal story of learning about investing

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Sign 6: You Prioritize Less Stress Over ‘Looking Rich’

• Jesse: “There are a lot of people… who'd say, ‘I’ve got enough good things going [financially]... I’m going to prioritize peace of mind.’” (49:19)
• Discussion: Paying off a low-interest mortgage might not be optimal on paper but can aid sleep and reduce anxiety.
• Paula: “There’s a low correlation between numbers in your portfolio and your actual peace of mind… If you’re still anxious, there are often deeper roots.” (51:55)

Timestamps:

• [49:19] – Jesse on prioritizing peace over math
• [51:55] – Paula on peace of mind and deeper issues

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Sign 7: Your Trend Is Positive

• Anthony: “I focus on zero balances on the credit card and increasing the gap between income and spending…” (53:19)
• Jesse: “We track net worth and big monthly expenses, not just the aggregate.” (54:05)
• Paula: Does a detailed net worth review twice a year—a “moving meditation.” (55:21)

Timestamps:

• [53:19] – Anthony on cash flow
• [54:05] – Jesse on tracking net worth and expenses
• [55:21] – Paula on semi-annual manual tracking

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Sign 8: Money Is a Tool, Not Your Identity

• Discussion: The panel discusses how status symbols like luxury apartments become proxies for self-worth.
• Paula: “To obtain that level of wealth, there has to be a certain degree of obsession…” (58:08)
• Anthony: Shares a client’s story emphasizing money as a resource, not a defining characteristic. (60:12)
• Jesse: “Money is easy to measure. That’s why it’s tempting to use as a scorecard—but it shouldn’t define your worth.” (61:53)

Timestamps:

• [58:08] – Paula on obsession and identity
• [60:12] – Anthony on using money as a tool
• [61:53] – Jesse’s thoughts on money as a scorecard

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Foundation of Financial Wellness:
  • “A thousand bucks gets you in the top 40 percentile… that’s a huge win.” —Joe Saul-Sehy (14:06)
• On Debt-to-Income Ratio:
  • “If you draw the number at 36 and you say below 36 you’re okay... I’d still want to know more.” —Jesse Kramer (18:46)
• On Social Media Comparison:
  • “Build the life you want, not someone else’s highlight reel.” —Jesse Kramer (27:02)
• On Automation:
  • “Try to remove your fallible human self out of the system…” —Jesse Kramer (44:21)
• On Financial Peace Over Perfection:
  • “There are times where the spreadsheet might not be the dominant factor anymore.” —Jesse Kramer (50:58)
• On Money as a Tool:
  • “It’s about survival and peace of mind. Money is there as a tool…” —Anthony Weaver (60:12)

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Fun Segment

• [32:31]–[43:10] Trivia Break:
  • The group laughs about the eBay sale of a 10-year-old grilled cheese sandwich resembling the Virgin Mary, which sold for $28,000 to an online casino.
  • Winner: Jesse, whose guess was closest.
  • Quote: “That’s Mount Everest in feet!” —Jesse Kramer (42:59)

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Final Reflections: Which Signs Matter Most?

• Paula: “Living paycheck to paycheck” matters at every income level.
• Anthony: Focus on financial behaviors and understanding your own habits.
• Jesse: Prioritize stress reduction and happiness over ‘optimal’ numbers.

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Episode Takeaways (Doug’s Top 3)

1. Use separate, high-yield savings accounts for emergency funds.
2. Automate retirement savings to build real friction.
3. Don’t get distracted by status symbols or “scorecards” like net worth or Instagram; focus on happiness and stability.

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Where to Find the Panelists

• Anthony Weaver: About That Wallet podcast — upcoming episode with his mom on financial resilience.
• Jesse Kramer: Personal Finance for Long Term Investors — recent episodes on retirement risks, listener AMA.
• Paula Pant: Afford Anything podcast — recent interview on outdoor time and productivity.

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Conclusion

The “8 Signs You’re Winning With Money” offer a holistic map—not just for financial survival, but for building a life that prioritizes well-being, resilience, and genuine progress. Rather than focusing on flashy external markers or perfect spreadsheets, the episode reinforces that real wealth comes from consistent habits, a strong foundation, clear priorities, and self-compassion along the journey.

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For deeper dives and expert resources, check out the episode partners at stackingbenjamins.com/201

Transcript

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

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[Anthony Weaver]

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[Joe Saul-Sehy]

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[Anthony Weaver]

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[Doug]

Hey everyone, just a reminder to tell Joe's mom she looks like she lost weight because I accidentally parked on the grass again.

[Paula Pant]

Hey, guys, mics are hot.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Quiet on the set.

[Doug]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and what are the signs you're actually winning with your money? Today we'll detail eight ways you'll know you're on the right track. But that's not all. Halfway through this extravaganza, we'll have some fun seeing which of our contributors will win this week's trivia question. And now, a guy who's excited to help you win with money eight days a week, it's Joe Salci.

[Anthony Weaver]

Eight days Joe.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hey there, Stackers. And happy, happy, happy Friday. So happy that you're here with us that we're actually doing this. Doug. Happy Friday to you, my friend. How are you doing?

[Doug]

Thanks, Joe. Thanks, Joe. Lovely of you to say so. I am enjoying this afternoon and I hope you are, too. Hope you are well and everybody in your home is happy.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

God bless us, each and every one. Who the heck are you?

[Doug]

Birds are singing, butterflies are flitting about, children are playing, and there's a warm feeling of love embracing us all.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Are the birds singing in New York City right now? Polypant?

[Paula Pant]

I don't think I've ever heard a bird here. I'm sure in Central park there must be some.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I've Never heard a bird in New York City. They're like, too many people. I'm out of here.

[Paula Pant]

Well, it's just. It's. There's a lot of traffic and a lot of people. And I mean, again, in Central Park, I'm sure it's different. It's just, you know, outside of my window, I don't exactly get birds.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Not right there. A place where there's lots of birds flitting about. Mr. Jesse Kraber is here. How are you, man?

[Jesse Kramer]

Hey. I'm doing well. I'm looking out a window right now. Beautiful blue sky. A bluebird day. I think they call it a bluebird day, actually. Not a cloud in the sky.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is it a bluebird day? I don't know. It's a bluebird day for us. You know why, guys? Because a friend of mine who I've. Every time I see him, I'm like, we got to get you on the show. We got to get you on the show. And then for whatever reason, our paths go different ways, and he's not on the show. He's finally on the show today. From about that wallet. Mr. Anthony Weaver joins us. How are you, man?

[Anthony Weaver]

Hey. I'm doing good. I mean, y' all talking about birds. Home of the O's and the ravens over here, so it's actually pretty fun.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's right. You are bird capital in Baltimore.

[Anthony Weaver]

Oh, yeah, Absolutely.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm coming to see you. By the way, you don't even know this, but in just after 4th of July, I'm gonna finally get Camden Yards. I'm a baseball fan. I'm finally going to see Camden Yards for the first time.

[Anthony Weaver]

Nice. Well, make sure you get ready for the squeegee boys. That's all I gotta say.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Perfect.

[Doug]

Fantastic.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, tell everybody about about that wallet. I love what you do, and you have a great show.

[Anthony Weaver]

Oh, yeah. Thank you. So about my show, it's really to help the sandwich generation build strong financial habits so that they can talk about money, spend money, and really enjoy that money with confidence. So just try to give them practical exercises that they can use every day, after every episode.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It is super. And you can find it on YouTube. You can find it wherever you find finder podcast. So super happy you're here. And we're going to be talking about eight signs. You're doing very well with money. I've got four signs we're doing well with money. Doug, Paula, Anthony, and Jesse. There's four right there that you're hanging out with us, and we have many more because we're doing this live on YouTube. So we're super happy that you're here. And we're going to surf into today's discussion, sponsored by. Wait for it. Jesse. Guess who today's discussion is sponsored by.

[Jesse Kramer]

State Farm. A bird Doug's wallpaper.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Surfing into it's Surf Shark.

[Jesse Kramer]

Surf Shark. That was gonna be my fourth guess.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes. If you're like us, you're spending a lot of time online right now watching the financial markets bubble. You need to turn that stuff off. Watching talking heads turn that stuff off. Maybe talking yourself into The Lions winning 11 games this fall. Anthony, instead of the Ravens. We don't need the Ravens to win 11. How about the Lions? Much better to focus on that. But while you're doing that, your data is basically out there for anybody to grab. And that's where Surf Shark comes in. Surf Sharks, A VPN that encrypts everything you do online. So whether you're working on Stacky Benjamin at home at a coffee shop, or scrolling your brokerage account on airport WI fi, I just, I. I can't imagine doing that. But with Surfshark, I can't imagine doing that. Because your info stays private. Think of it like having an insurance policy before you step on the Internet. You're protected. And here's one thing I really like. One account covers unlimited devices. So your phone, your laptop, your smart tv, everything's locked down. They also have a strict no logs policy. So the people at Surf Shark are aren't tracking what you're doing either. Plus features like clean web block ad to malware before they even hit your screen. So if you want to browse smarter, maybe even find better deals on travel or online marketplaces by changing your virtual location, go to surfshark.com stackingb or use code Stacky be at checkout to get four extra months of surf shark VPN. That's surfshark.com stacking B code stacking B. Jesse, you got that?

[Jesse Kramer]

Got it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right, well, we got a great show. We got a couple more sponsors who help us keep on keeping on.

[Jesse Kramer]

We're gonna.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

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[Paula Pant]

Yeah, I think the number one thing to do is block yourself from Instagram for a little while. I installed the Freedom app on my phone and initially I blocked myself from instagram just from 8pm to 9pm 8pm to 9pm was the only window of opportunity.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And I thought you were saying it's the only time you're blocked for me tonight, I'm not on Instagram.

[Paula Pant]

But the rest of the day, 23 hours a day, that was my only window of opportunity. But what that meant was that I would look at the clock and it would be like 9:17pm and I'm like, oh, darn, I missed my window for today because, you know, it's not like I've. I have a calendar reminder at seven.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, but that's great, though.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, exactly. And so that was how I initially did it. And then eventually that just led to just being off for several months. So, anyways, to go back to your point about sometimes you think that you're not doing as well because you're comparing yourself to people at Instagram. I mean, selection bias, sampling bias. Like, the way to get away from that is remove yourself from the distorted pool by just removing yourself from Insta.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, there's things when you go to Instagram, Anthony, that make people think, make all of us think. Well, you're wealthy because you look wealthy. Let's walk through with everybody, and I'll start with you first. What are some of these signs that are ostentatious displays of wealth that maybe aren't real? Like, you might not be really wealthy even though you're trying to brag that you're wealthy?

[Anthony Weaver]

Oh, yeah. One of the things that I always see because I like to travel and you know when you see, like, those nice drone footage of, like, the greenery and you see the water is blue and you just sitting home in your couch and just like, man, I wish I could be there.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes.

[Anthony Weaver]

That is one of those moments where you be like, what? How did you do it? They never explained how they did it. And you think, like, man, I really need to spend some money right now and buy my plane ticket. And then you do not get the same experience. And that is one of the things that. That gets me every time.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, They're. They're coloring the viewpoint. They're. They're getting this perfect shot. You can't see the landfill behind them. It's. Yeah, yeah. Something different. Jesse, what's another Instagram groaner Ostentatious display of wealth that might not be real.

[Jesse Kramer]

Oh, I feel like there's so many. It's just like it's a. It's a highlight reel or it's just a non stop highlight reel. Of all the best things, all the coolest things, all the prettiest places, the prettiest people. Makeup is on, muscles are pumped. Windows out of the private Jet are extra shiny. It's like watching the top 10 on SportsCenter. If all you do is watch the top 10 on SportsCenter, you will get a false understanding of what sports look like. And I don't know, I don't spend much time on Instagram and. But when I'm there, it's like all you see is versions of everybody's individual Sports center top 10.

[Doug]

Doug, when he said private jet, I just, I groan and roll my eyes every time I see the 23 year old walking onto a private jet. Like, yeah, like it's theirs and like they own it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Come on, what is that? Isn't that there's a jet in Los Angeles, isn't there, that you can rent for not very much money to make it look like you have a private jet. It's like in a studio.

[Jesse Kramer]

In the chat, they're asking me where I am right now because it looks different. I'm in a private jet.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You're in a private jet. I'm recording a private jet with a drop ceiling.

[Jesse Kramer]

That's correct.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's correct. It's pretty amazing.

[Jesse Kramer]

This is the kitchen. This is the kitchenette.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But I remember that guy. You guys remember that guy? Tai Lopez?

[Jesse Kramer]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

By the way, who's. We did a story, Doug, just a few weeks ago. Under investigation with SEC right now. Yeah. For some pretty serious stuff. But shock. When Ty was starting out, he would rent Lamborghinis, Ferraris and expensive mansions to do his videos. You know, he'd rent it for an hour just so he could stand in front of it and you would assume that it was his place. Like, that's awesome. So those are not the ways that we're going to be talking about wealth. Let's do number one. Number one is you can handle $1,000 emergency. That is sign number one that you're doing really well. How come, Anthony, first of all, you

[Anthony Weaver]

got to think about it, that it's not such of a burden and realizing that almost 60% of Americans can't even handle $1,000 emergency fund right now. And if you think about it, a thousand dollars can really go a long way. I mean, when you really, even with the inflation is still like, you can still get a tire replaced. You can get get kid that actually come to you for that last minute when they say, oh, I got a field trip around the corner, you'll be like, yo, why didn't you tell me last week?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No, it's tomorrow, Anthony. It's tomorrow.

[Anthony Weaver]

Yeah, it's tomorrow, right? You gotta find your last $20. But it's okay, you're gonna make it work.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. It is interesting, Paula, that a thousand bucks gets you in the top, top 40 percentile. Like that's all you gotta do. Like that's a huge win.

[Paula Pant]

I think this is where people, people who can cover a thousand dollar emergency, even if you might feel financially stressed in other areas of your life, like take some time to appreciate how far you've come, because the stats are that the majority of Americans could not cover a $400 emergency. So if the majority can't cover even $400, then if you have enough money to be able to cover a thousand, you are doing better than most Americans, Jesse.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But $1,000, I mean, it is a good start. And that's what we're talking about today are some of these motivational baby steps, right? These little things that we can do. But where do we really want that emergency fund to be?

[Jesse Kramer]

Where do we want it to end up being? Different strokes for different folks. I've heard, you know, pretty consistently I feel like you hear three to six months worth of expenses. So if your household spends $8,000 a month, right? Three months of that is 24 grand. Six months of that is 48 grand, which is a big number. And it's a lot a bigger of number than the $1,000 kind of starter emergency fund. And for what it's worth, there just some, maybe some. A practical takeaway that listeners might help is one of my tidbits that I'll tell people is to evaluate your own personal job security and, and your own personal ease with which you could find a replacement job if you needed it. So for example, if you're like a registered nurse, which is you can work in a lot of different places, they're pretty highly in demand. You probably got some good job security and you could relatively easily replace your job if for some reason you lost it. You could probably get away with a smaller emergency fund. But if you're one of the 20 professors in the United States who's studying Uzbekistani architecture, there might be only so many professorial positions in the world where you could go find your replacement job and you might need more time to replace your job if you need it, which you might need to have a bigger emergency fund in that place.

[Doug]

Did Uzbekistani architecture, did that just roll off your brain?

[Paula Pant]

I think it would be Uzbek.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Uzbek architecture.

[Paula Pant]

Uzbek architecture.

[Jesse Kramer]

Well, see, that's actually a very hot topic in the Uzbek Uzbekistani architecture scene.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Paula.

[Jesse Kramer]

If you were one of the 20 professors, you would know that.

[Paula Pant]

Well, but if that professor had tenure, then they're covered.

[Jesse Kramer]

It's true.

[Paula Pant]

Then they can spend down that emergency fund.

[Jesse Kramer]

I believe it's tenure.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Let's talk emergency funds. Because if you get Anthony, that larger emergency fund that Jesse's talking about, that's a lot of money sitting at no interest rate. How do we get that interest rate up a little bit?

[Anthony Weaver]

Yeah, so I wanted to go back because Jesse talked about just having that six months. But really you got to think about your profession as well, because definitely in a tech field, it's always tough to find that job within that next three to six months. If you have a job because of high demand and AI is coming through

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

where you're in Uzbekistan Tech.

[Anthony Weaver]

Ueck. Oh, UBEC Tech. Yes, you can make it happen. And on top of that, a place to actually put it was one of the things, is a high yield savings account. We gotta definitely lean into those. There's so many out there and you just don't want to put it in the big banks where you only get 0.01% so that it can actually grow a little faster and really have that moment. So it can actually be a true emergency fund if things really hit a ride, depending on your career.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, I like that. Having it separated away from your day to day spending money. And it's funny that bank of America, in a recent quarterly earnings report, said the part out loud. They don't pay more on their savings accounts because nobody asks for it. Like they, they said the quiet part out loud. Like, no, we, we don't care because people don't demand it. So I would be all over the high yield savings account sign number two on this list. Your debt to income ratio is under the 36%. Jesse, when you saw that one, what was the first thing that came into your mind?

[Jesse Kramer]

I know that the 36% number is widely cited. I know it's like part of the CFP curriculum. It's like, all right, we draw this one line at 36%. We draw another important line at 28%, another one at 20%. So that's well and good. I still think those rules of thumb are. Well, they're just rules of thumb, right? They're very broad, generic, kind of one size fits all. And I think it's very possible to have less debt and still kind of be in a precarious position. It's probably possible to also have more debt than that and find yourself in a reasonably okay position that one might be a little less likely But I guess my point is that, you know, it's hard to just take that one rule of thumb and be like, oh, I'm only at 35%. I'm golden. I'm great. I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So you're saying that somebody could have a great debt to income ratio and still be a hot mess?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, yeah. Or at least like. Okay, well, you just said great, Joe. Like, if someone's got like, no debt, wonderful. But I guess what I'm saying is, like, if you draw the number at 36 and you say below 36, you're okay. And someone's out there at 35.5, I still would want to know more about their situation to see if they're okay. That's what I'm saying.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right, Paula, so here's kind of a fun question. Would you rather have a 10 debt to come ratio? Right. Very low debt, but no savings, or a 45% debt income ratio and a huge investment portfolio?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, how big is the investment portfolio?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Let's say you're 35 years old and $1 million.

[Paula Pant]

And you said 45% debt.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

45% income ratio.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, man. I think I'd rather go the opposite. I think I'd rather do the 10% DT.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

35 years old, no savings.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, geez. Okay. Oh, that's a tough one. You know what? I would need to math this out. I think I need to math this out. Depending on what my income is. I need like 10 minutes with a spreadsheet.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But that is the question, right? I mean, one big question on that spreadsheet would be, I think, what type of debt is it?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. Because we're talking 0 net worth, 10% DTI and 0 net worth. Okay, I changed my answer. I think I'd rather have the 1

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

mil at the 45.

[Paula Pant]

I'd rather have the 1 mil with the 45. Yeah. Final answer. 1 mil with 45.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, what type of debt it is I think brings up something, Anthony. You know, a lot of people look at mortgage debt differently. Do you look at mortgage debt as quote, unquote, good debt?

[Anthony Weaver]

That is debt? Whether which way you look at it, it depends on the game plan. If your systems are set up properly to actually pay it off if things go awry. Sure, have it as all you need to, but honestly, it's like I say, it's still an asset or an also a liability if you're living in that house. If it's an investment property, it's another thing, because it depends on location. If you can sell it, if the bank even want it, when you're trying to sell it, if nobody wants it, then what? You're going to sit here with a empty house? I've heard so many different stories about when it comes to real estate. So it depends. That's why we do it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Just like everything in personal finance, it totally depends on number three on this list. You're not living paycheck to paycheck. We're talking about foundations, Paula. And for me, this actually took quite a long time because I was so bad with money that getting out of that paycheck to paycheck lifestyle changed everything for me. But what was the first thing you thought when you saw this as number three on our list?

[Paula Pant]

At the lower end of income, it is almost inevitable for paycheck to paycheck living to emerge because you can only shrink. You can only shrink down so far. Like there's a certain base under which like your food cannot get any cheaper, like rice and beans from Costco. Still, it has a certain floor. And so I think a lot of times this needs to be contextual to how much you're making. Because it is one thing to be not making very much and be paycheck to paycheck, it's another thing to be making a lot of, but spending in a discretionary way a lot.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I feel like this couples nicely, you know, like I'm thinking of a good wine with a nice meal. Jesse. Like this couples well with that thousand dollars. So you got $1,000 in the bank and you're not living paycheck to paycheck. You've got a nice little foundation to begin from.

[Jesse Kramer]

Definitely. And foundation, I think, is the perfect word for it because again, it's having these things doesn't necessarily mean that you've built a skyscraper yet. It doesn't even mean that you've built a, a one story house yet. But it does mean that you've got a solid foundation from which to build from. And especially it's just like not having these things in place is a precarious, It's a scary place to be. Right. Living paycheck to paycheck is a scary place to be. So it's almost like, is it maslow, Is it the hierarchy of needs?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The hierarchy of needs. Right, right.

[Jesse Kramer]

And I, I almost feel like in, in a financial sense, like some of your hierarchy of needs are get past the point where you're paycheck to paycheck. Get to the point where you have a thousand dollar emergency fund just to get by. Like, there's a similar tone to these things. Just because what you're doing is you're eliminating some of these like lowest hanging emergencies that can strike you in a way where it's like, okay, if I have shelter and I have heat and I have some food, at least I'm okay a little bit. I think that there's some maslow in there. So I kind of see some similarities between the two.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I got those two things in order in my life, Anthony, and life just started picking up. A, I felt really empowered, but B, it was such a solid foundation. Let's say you're coaching somebody. They have the thousand bucks in the, in the bank. They're not living paycheck to paycheck, which means now they have some discretionary income to start saving. What's the first thing that you do to build on this platform?

[Anthony Weaver]

All right, so you say they don't have debt.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

They got a great debt to income ratio. So let's just take the three things that we've got. Debt to income ratio looks solid. They've got a thousand dollar emergency fund. And now they have. They also have not living paycheck to paycheck.

[Anthony Weaver]

Okay, so with the. Because that, that the income ratio is still kind of there. Even though you say healthy, I still would like to know what that debt is. Going back to what Paula was mentioning, it's like really the layout of their foundation. Then really I will start looking into the habits and I'll talk. I walked them through what it calls like a dream walk. I call it the dream walk, where they say, what does retirement look like? What are you doing now that actually can align to your future needs? That would actually help fund that. Are you taking action now? Are you investing in yourself? Are you taking that education to learn what it takes to do what you want to do in your future? Are you having a separate account in your high yield savings account to make sure that you are saving for those actual fun events so it doesn't impact you. And then also what are the mitigations that you're missing or overlooking so you don't go into a higher debt to income ratio? Those are the things I'll kind of talk to them for. Just kind of. Even though they have the foundation right, but still set up those barriers and rules for the friends and family that will kind of sneak in when they start talking about the vacations that they have.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I like that because then we're setting actual parameters on what we're saving toward and not just saving it into Some random bucket which would be much easier, much easier to stop. We played a game earlier with Paula about would you rather have this or that? Anthony, how about this one? Who would you trust more financially? Somebody making 60,000 bucks and they have a two month buffer between them and paycheck to paycheck or somebody making $250,000 and they're living paycheck to paycheck.

[Anthony Weaver]

I'll trust $6,000 person any day because they, they know what they want to do with their money and they pretty solid. Which means that I can, if I were to give them the same paycheck as a $200,000 person, best believe they will still probably live the same lifestyle as if they had 60,000. And maybe they might splurge and get like a nice cashmere sweater or something from Quint.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Paula.

[Paula Pant]

Yes, exactly. I'm wearing one right now. Actually,

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

when we talk about this stuff, you know, the person with $250,000 and no emergency fund, there's living paycheck to paycheck. It would be easy for me to believe that person might not be thinking about their values when they're spending. True, false.

[Anthony Weaver]

True, Paula.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's all right. We got Anthony's. Anthony says true.

[Paula Pant]

So the question is, might not be thinking about. This is. Again with the negative. Okay, so it's true that they're not thinking about their.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

True that they are not thinking about their negative.

[Paula Pant]

True that they are not. Yes, the negative and sometimes the double negatives.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I have a bad habit of that, don't I? I totally do. By the way, for people not here live, Andrea hanging out with us on YouTube says kind of distracted by the workout class going on behind Paula right now as we record.

[Paula Pant]

I'm just trying to inspire people to get to the gym.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's right. Fitness and finance go hand in hand.

[Paula Pant]

Exactly.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Number four here. We started off, Jesse, with Instagram, but number four is you stop comparing yourself to others. I think psychologically this is a big one. Yeah.

[Jesse Kramer]

And I'm reading through it right now. Build the life you want, not someone else's highlight reel. It's so true. It's. I just, I see it in my own life and sometimes I feel it myself, certainly, which is like, why do I want to buy that thing? Why do I want to go to that place? Why do I feel the need to spend money on this or that, the other thing. And a lot of times there is that comparison. You know, it's so human. It's part of our psychological makeup. It's part of the Whole social primate thing is comparison. And in a lot of ways, we. We want to fit in. We need to fit in. It's not like you want to make yourself a total social outcast via your personal finance choices. Dog, I feel like you can back me up on this one. But at the same time, there are certainly ways where your desire to not be a social outcast via personal finance choices can get yourself into personal finance trouble. And so it's kind of about finding that happy medium where you're still making really smart, even, like, you know, optimal, you're making 98th percentile personal finance choices while still being a normal social primate.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What do you mean that that can lead you into trouble? You mean you become such an outcast because you just do nothing? Because you do absolutely nothing. It leads to, like, you become a curmudgeon who's never doing anything.

[Jesse Kramer]

Correct. You become a curmudgeon. You're wearing old, crusty clothes. Not only are you eating rice and beans, but you're being outwardly critical of others who choose not to eat rice and beans. I mean, I'm painting a very kind of stark, goofy picture here. Yeah. And like, probably an unrealistic picture, but yeah, there are ways where, like, I mean, Scrooge, the whole story of, what is it, A Christmas Carol, Charles Dickens. And Scrooge is like, here's a wealthy guy who didn't spend any money and became a total social outcast because of his. It's not even frugal. But, yeah, like, curmudgeonly attitude. So I don't think that's an outcome that we necessarily want.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

How the hell do we have no Dickens references for 10 years and then we have two in the same episode? Like, what are we. What are we doing with the Charles Dickens stuff today? I got no idea. But, Anthony, what Jesse's talking about. You know you mentioned the drone footage earlier, right? The FOMO that you get from Instagram, watching somebody in this beautiful location that you want to fly to, like, asking yourself why I want to do that is. Is huge.

[Anthony Weaver]

Yeah. I can say even with the. Just because of the scenery that you see, it's like almost like, how can you recreate that with your budget? And sometimes people just go in to increase their debt to income ratio just to kind of feel like they doing something. And ultimately, when you look back at it, is it really worth it?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I thought you were talking about buying, like, a couple of ferns for your apartment to make it look like you're in the tropics.

[Anthony Weaver]

Well, actually, I did Buy two extra lamps from the thrift store to make it look like I have a antique.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Perfect.

[Anthony Weaver]

But I was like, I'm not going out and buying them fresh. But I was like, let me check the value of it on as if I were buying it first. I was like, oh, these are 300 lamps. Let me go and get two of these for $5 and I'll be okay. They don't need to know.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Perfect. No, nobody knows what it costs. It's just what the value is. Right, and cost versus value, two totally different things. Paula, is comparison always bad?

[Paula Pant]

No, I think comparison can be very motivating. If you use comparison as a method of inspiring yourself to achieve greater, greater heights, whatever that may be. Maybe professional success, maybe, maybe fitness. Comparison can be very healthy if it's handled the right way.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Something else that's very healthy is the fact that we take a break halfway through this show for this incredible trivia competition that's been going on all year. Anthony, it's your first time playing our trivia. You get to play on behalf of OG My co host who's not here today. And that means some good news and bad news. Anthony, you want the good news or the bad news?

[Anthony Weaver]

I always go with bad news first.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, in the bad news, speaking of first, the bad news is you're going to have to guess first. And I really don't like our guest having to guess first. But that's because you guys are in the lead. In fact, OG Is, well bordering on record breaking territory. The record for the year is 18 trivia wins. And Doug, what's the score here? With more than half the year to go?

[Doug]

Well, with just a little more than half of the year to go, OG Slash Anthony by proxy has already reached the halfway mark at nine wins. Jesse not far behind at five. Paula is might as well be in South Dakota because she's got three wins and she's got a long road ahead of her.

[Paula Pant]

But always wanted to go to South Dakota actually.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And everybody in South Dakota is like, it's beautiful here. I'll take it.

[Doug]

Kind of is. It actually is.

[Paula Pant]

I've heard it's beautiful. I've always wanted to go.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, super.

[Paula Pant]

It's like high on my list. It's one of the state, one of the four states I have not yet been to.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, the good news is Doug put you there metaphorically already, Paula, So you're halfway. You're halfway there. It is funny. When I went to North Dakota for the first time, we stopped in this little shop and they had Stickers. And this is how well the Dakotas know themselves. Think about when you make stickers. You know you're going to sell the sticker, right? So you know there's going to be market for this. This sticker said, North Dakota, I saved the best for last. They know. They know.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And honestly, they're probably happy about it. Like, who among us want more people coming to our state? We want more. Like, sure, we like the tourism dollars, but nobody in northern Michigan says, come on over.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We're lonely. Everybody in the Dakotas right now is like, shut up about it.

[Doug]

Right, Right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right. We're not going to shut up about this week's trivia, though. Doug, you've got the question.

[Doug]

Sure do, Joe. Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and I know what you're hungry for. My trivia question. Let's get right to it. It was on Today's date in 2004 that a woman in Florida, definitely not OG's hometown, sold a 10 year old grilled cheese sandwich on ebay because she believed it contained an image of the Virgin Mary. Now, the real question should probably be something like, why in the hell did this lady hold on to a half eaten grilled cheese Sammy for 10 years? But here, sacking Benjamin's, we don't go for the obvious, do we? No, what we're interested in is the final selling price of this miracle food. So my question to today's roundtable is how much did this holy lunch sell for?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right. At auction, half eaten grilled cheese sandwich look like the Virgin Mary. Anthony,

[Anthony Weaver]

let's see what I'm going with. Let's see. This is 10 years ago. Well, she held it for 10 years.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

She held it for 10 years. And it was in what year, Doug? 2004.

[Doug]

You said 2004.

[Anthony Weaver]

Did she use Wonder Bread? I mean, because, you know, it doesn't mold. So let's see. And we know cheese is already mold, so we're gonna have to go with. I'm thinking of a solid 900 bucks.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

$900. Well, Jesse, what are you gonna do with that number?

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm gonna go higher. I'm gonna go higher, but I don't know how high. How many people climb Mount Everest? 70. What was it? 70? What's the 7300?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow. Take it to dig at, Paula.

[Jesse Kramer]

I think it was 7300. I'll go with 7, 300.

[Paula Pant]

I can tell you the height of Mount Everest in both feet and meters.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's such a weird Flex. So how much money, Jesse?

[Jesse Kramer]

$7,300 for grilled cheese.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

7,300. So we've got 900 and 7,300 for a half eaten grilled cheese sandwich, man. Okay, 10 year old, half eaten grilled cheese sandwich.

[Paula Pant]

I'm gonna take the middle, but I'm gonna flank the lower side. So I'm gonna go 901.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, my goodness.

[Anthony Weaver]

Price is right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's the pain in the ass to going first. Anthony, right there. Nice job, Paula. Just run our guest off his first episode. All right, Anthony Scott, 900. Jesse, 7300. Paula, 901. But what's your what'?

[Jesse Kramer]

Guess.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What do you think it really is?

[Paula Pant]

I'm thinking maybe two grand or 2,500.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

$2,000. Is that person on the floor behind you okay?

[Paula Pant]

I think so. I think. I think he's doing a plank.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, is he okay?

[Doug]

Is that what the kids call it these days?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We'll be right back. As you know, I love living in Texarkana. But you know what I really don't like a lot is the heat. Except when it comes to how I get dressed. I want pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. Things that are easy but still put together. And that's why I keep coming back to quints. They focus on high quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Think breathable linen, soft, organic cotton, well made basics, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still effortless. Quince European linen pants and shirts. The perfect warm weather upgrade to add to your rotation. Starting at just $34. Their tees are soft and easy to wear, and their lightweight cotton sweaters are perfect for cooler summer nights when we head north. Everything in quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories. Cut out the middleman. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Quince goes way beyond clothing. Custom upholstered sofas, ceramic cookware, premium bedding. It's kind of brain you had to recommending to everyone for everything. You've heard me talk about quints so much. Somebody on Spotify even said, all I want to hear is you talk more about your pants, Joe. About how much you like your quince pants. On my recent trip to New York City, just so I don't talk about the pants, you know what? It's the cashmere sweater that I absolutely loved and got to sport that thing not only to a Yankee game, but also a nice dinner out with our friend Crystal Hammond and the whole South Sea High Clan. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.comsb for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-I-N c e.comsb and you'll get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com sports I had a breakfast mentoring meeting yesterday with a young woman who was just amazing. She is graduating from college with a degree in wealth management and she reached out hoping for some pointers. And listen, if somebody's in Texarkana and wants to go into this beautiful field of personal finance and helping people get their money together, that is incredible. But even more incredible is how she reached out, how she was trying to network and I was having a discussion that finding the right person and avoiding the wrong person for a role, that's what can make or break an organization. And we just don't see that many qualified people. So how do you find them? Well, Indeed Sponsored Jobs is a boost whenever you need to find quality talent. If you're hiring, Indeed is all you need. You can stop struggling to get your job post even seen on other sites you'll match with quality candidates with Indeed. Sponsored Jobs. Get matched with and higher quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Reach candidates who meet your specific criteria like skill, certifications or location. Drives me crazy when I'm matched with all kinds of people who aren't a fit. I don't have that kind of time. People are finding quality hires on Indeed right now in the minute I've been talking to you. Companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed. According to Indeed data worldwide, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed are 95% more likely to report a higher than non sponsored jobs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all the boxes. Less stress, less time, more results when you need the right person to cut through the chaos. This is a job for Indeed. Sponsored Job and here's what's cool. Stackers. You're going to get $75 in sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support Stacking Benjamins by saying you heard about Indeed right here at stacking Benjamins. Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the right way with Indeed. All right, Anthony, you started at 900. It looked pretty good until Paula went 901. How you feeling now?

[Anthony Weaver]

I'm. I'm feeling like I I should have just went High just to kind of bump her out, I guess.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And, Jesse, you got the high end. If it went for a million dollars, I mean, grilled cheese sandwich, like the Virgin Mary could have went for a lot.

[Jesse Kramer]

Well, that's what I'm thinking. You know, there's a lot of Christians in the world who maybe they see that Virgin Mary as well in the sandwich, and they think to themselves, like, I need that for my mantle. I need to donate that to my church that is going to build a shrine around it. You know, you don't build a shrine around a $900 sandwich. Do you build a shrine around a $7,300 sandwich? Maybe. And so that's where I'm thinking from the shrine, and I'm working backwards to the car cost. And I like my odds. I like my odds.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Paula, 90901. Do you build a shrine around $900? $901 sandwich?

[Paula Pant]

I think he'd build a shrine around maybe like a $2,000 sandwich.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Do you feed it to the person behind you doing planks?

[Paula Pant]

I mean, he probably needs some. Some carbs, some fats, and some proteins, all of which would be contained in a grilled cheese sandwich. So.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right, our answers are locked in. 900 for Anthony. 901 for Paul. 300 for Jesse. Who's taking this home? Doug.

[Doug]

Hey, there, Stackers. I'm aged cheese connoisseur and fraternity brother of the holy Trinity, Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Before the break, we asked our esteemed panel of ne' er do wells who does well, they ne' er do well about the selling price of a miracle. And not just any miracle. Talking about a sandwich that had been preserved for a decade without any visible mold, which means either it was divine intervention or it was mostly preservatives. Either way, one of those explanations is significantly more on brand for American cheese. The winning bidder wasn't a church, an art collector, or a hungry college student. It was goldenpalace.com, an online casino. This is the same casino that also bought a French fry that supposedly resembled Abraham Lincoln for over $75,000. They bought naming rights to a newly discovered monkey species. They paid advertising revenue for tattoos on people's foreheads. And here's my personal favorite. Honestly, they bought a kidney stone from William Shatner. I mean, if you want to build a shrine around something, it's Shatner's kidney stone. But anyway, how much did the casino pay for this grilled piece of orange polymer? Allegedly. Well, I can tell you that it was $27,100 more than what Anthony guessed, $27,099 more than what Paula guessed, and just 20,700 more than what Jesse guessed because the correct answer is $28,000, making Jesse our winner.

[Jesse Kramer]

Wow, that's Mount Everest in feet.

[Paula Pant]

Mount Everest is actually 29,028ft.

[Jesse Kramer]

That's a great guess right there. That's a winning guess.

[Anthony Weaver]

That's good.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Do you put the shrine on Mount Everest, Paula, to this grilled cheese sandwich?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, no, the shrine is. There are a couple of other holier mountains that you can't climb. Those are where the shrines are.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And Anthony, all that, all that wonder bread preserving it for a decade, it's still holding up.

[Anthony Weaver]

I mean, I'm sure I'm still somewhere

[Jesse Kramer]

kept the valley shrines in Uzbekistan,

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

of course. Let's get back to our eight signs that you're on the right path with money. You might not be finished with your journey. You might be starting out, but these are some great ways to know that you are checking the boxes. So the first four that we had just for people with short term memory problems, you can handle a thousand dollar Emergency was number one, your debt to income ratio is under 36% so you keep the debt low. Number three is you're not living paycheck to paycheck. And then number four, you stop comparing yourself to others. Let's kick this half off with sign number five. Jesse, you have good financial habits. You pay bills on time, you automate savings, you review your statements regularly. So now that you've got that, that foundation, you are now creating a machine.

[Jesse Kramer]

It looks like, yeah, super smart. Create a system, create a habit, make it automated. Try to remove your fallible human self out of the system as much as you reasonably can. Not to say that it's mandatory in order to achieve financial success to follow those steps. But like it's so, so helpful. And I think more often than not, when you talk to people who seem to really know what they're doing or just have a good handle on their finances and have built financial success over time, these systems, these automations, you know, we forget stuff all the time. So if you can set up your personal finances in such a way that forgetting stuff doesn't punish you as much, I think you'll be better off for it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Let's walk through some of these systems because you know, we don't have any date. There might be data on this, I don't know. But let's take somebody in their 20s and we now can project 30 years in the future. What single habit, what single system that somebody built or a habit that they built is a maybe the best predictor of future wealth?

[Jesse Kramer]

Me, a single habit in their 20s that over 30 years is the best predictor of future wealth. I am going to go with automated investment contributions.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Automated investing. Anthony, you're nodding your head.

[Anthony Weaver]

Yeah, and I was going through that, thinking about it growing up in impoverished environment and really it would have been nice to even know about how to invest or even know where to begin. So it would have been great to even know that I could even put away $10, like $5 even if I could find $5 to think about investing. But it really depends on, you know, the neighborhood that you're in and also the mindset and the knowledge and the access. And so if you're coming up and you didn't know about it, nobody's around you and your circle is talking about it. It's just kind of how do you get to that knowledge? And I'm thinking that by finding people that can actually introduce a podcast such as this and really trying to introduce that little nugget that they can actually start investing. Like, hey, it's so simple. Just open up the app, set it on, set it and forget it and go into a nice low cost ETF and just kind of let it ride.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That is sadly though, a predictor is access to information.

[Anthony Weaver]

Yeah, I didn't know all this stuff till I got to college. So, you know, this stuff wasn't really available. Like, I heard about it in high school, but my teachers never said like, hey, you can actually go in and log into this account and actually get your own. They knew about it, but we experienced it, what a trade looks like, but we never were walked through to actually say like, hey, go to this website, go ahead on and get your parents to sign up as a guardian or a parent for your account so that you can start investing. That was never taught in class.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Who was it in college? Was it a class you took? Was it a, a bookstore you went into? Was it a friend?

[Anthony Weaver]

It was my old teacher actually. I just kept in the going by his office doing office hours and he was just talking about investing and how to create seed money. And then start with the seed money that you create, which is like saving a dollar a paycheck or saving $5 a paycheck and just having that money regardless of where you're putting it at. And then take that pool of money once you're at the end of the month and then start your investments that way. So that's what he kind of helped me out with, the seed money process, because I never was even taught about that and then take that to invest. And that's when I started learning more and more about finance from that point.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I love that analogy because, you know, think of it as seed money. You're not done. But much like these tips today, you're on the right path. Paula, we talked about access to information. We talked about automation. What's another predictor of an early habit that can help you get to future wealth?

[Paula Pant]

Related to automated investing, but a little bit different is specifically retirement investing, since, like, automated investing could be taxable, brokerage account, could be any possible container, but specifically automating a portion of your paycheck to go into a 401k, a 403b, any type of a workplace retirement plan, or if you don't have one, into a Roth ira. I think that locking that away from yourself into something that you realistically cannot touch, as opposed to a taxable brokerage account, particularly in your 20s, is very important.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Building some friction, right?

[Paula Pant]

Exactly. Building friction. Building the guardrail. So it does two things. Number one, it prohibits you from touching it until you, you, you know, reach retirement age. There. Technically, there are ways to do it, but if you're at the point where you're figuring out those ways, like 72T, you've already won the game at that point.

[Anthony Weaver]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. The sixth one on this list. You prioritize less stress over looking rich. And at first I thought this was about comparison, that they were talking about the piece. But I really like where they take this. It says lower stress, better sleep, and fewer money worries are legitimate financial wins. And when you realize that, I start thinking, Jesse, that it might be about more than math. Right. I mean, is paying off a 3% mortgage a good idea if it helps you sleep at night?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yes. Is paying off a 3% mortgage a good idea if it helps you sleep at night? Certainly is from one way of looking at it. And that's where I just find it so interesting. I feel like I've kind of come full circle. Like, my background was engineering. And at one point in life, I really did approach all my own finances like an engineer. And just like the hard what are the numbers? What is correct? I'm a spreadsheet with legs. Right. It's that kind of approach.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's the way we describe you, by the way. People are like, who is Jesse, I appreciate you.

[Doug]

Oh, my God, there's four jokes there.

[Jesse Kramer]

How many columns wide am I? Because I have a feeling you guys talk about me behind my back and I do not appreciate it.

[Paula Pant]

I'd say to column E,

[Jesse Kramer]

not bad.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

How many meters tall is Jesse's spreadsheet?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, how many Himalayas tall am I? Where was I? Oh, both in my own finances, but then also just the wonderful conversations I get to have with other people. That's when you realize like there are a lot of people out there who, getting back to the way this article is structured, they'd say, well, I've got enough good things going in my finances right now that I'm going to prioritize something that the spreadsheet might not prioritize, but I'm going to prioritize it because it's going to help me sleep better at night. If I was just starting on day one and I didn't have any long term savings and I didn't have that much put away for investment like long term investing, would I prioritize my 3% mortgage? Maybe, maybe not. I probably wouldn't. But once I get to the point where maybe I'm coast fire, let's say maybe all of a sudden prioritizing that mortgage payment makes a lot more sense. I've got kids at home that I'm worried about. Prioritizing the mortgage makes a lot more sense. It's just interesting how these, these feelings ebb and flow and there certainly comes a time where the spreadsheet might not be the dominant factor in what you decide to do anymore.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Did you agree with that? Take Anthony, that I think what Jesse's kind of saying is that math is better when you start out, but the closer you get to financial freedom, the math means less.

[Anthony Weaver]

Yes. Especially in a relationship if you feel as though like the partner that you have is a spender and you really have this goal that you trying to pay off the debt and the other person was like, well, we are so close, we already there. Like just let 3% be there. That can cause some, some clashing there. And I think that's where the communication right to sit down and actually really get back in alignment with each other. I think that would really help out from an emotional standpoint and that's where it becomes beyond the dollars at that point.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Paula, this reminds me of a call that we took over on the Afford Anything show where this woman was really worried about her peace of mind and she keeps refreshing her app over and over and over. Do you think peace of mind is underrated in personal finance?

[Paula Pant]

I wouldn't say it's underrated. I do think that many people discuss peace of mind. But I think that perhaps one aspect of the discussion that is under acknowledged is that there is a very low correlation between the numbers in your bank account or in your portfolio and your actual peace of mind. I think peace of mind as a concept is discussed, but I think many people erroneously believe that that peace of mind comes about through debt payoff, adequate retirement savings, et cetera. When in fact it might be that objectively your numbers are great, but subjectively you're still anxious, you're still worried, you're still hypervigilant because you have some early childhood trauma or some memories or some deeply embedded lessons that your body still remembers that cause worry that exceeds what the spreadsheet would. Would warrant.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The. The seventh sign on our list, and I really like this one. Your trend is positive. I feel like we get. We get caught up, Anthony, and reaching the top of the mountain, right about reaching the place. But really the trend and the journey is so important. But that also means that you're tracking, right, that you're tracking the trend. What are some of the numbers that you track? And that would be important for our stackers to track to make sure that trend's positive.

[Anthony Weaver]

The trend positive. Well, for me, I would say one of the things that I track mostly is not so much the debt to income ratio, but zero is on the credit card. So as long as it's zero, I don't care what the debt to income ratio is. And that's one of the things that I track the most as well as my income. And one of the things that I try to do is try to figure out how can I increase my income, but by maintaining what I have in my day to day and whether it's to kind of work overtime or if I need to pick up a second job. And so those are the things that I'm tracking.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So you're focused on the gap between income and spending, like building as big a gap as possible.

[Anthony Weaver]

Yes.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah.

[Anthony Weaver]

So that's my, my goal.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jesse, what do you track?

[Jesse Kramer]

Let me just trying to think here. I guess the two big things are on a monthly basis, net worth just, you know, account balances, investment balances, cash balances. And one interesting is I do I make an effort to separate out all the cash balances, the investment account, because investment accounts, because sometimes like you can see, oh, my net worth is going up month over month. If your cash balance is going down month over month, there's probably a sign that you're spending more than you're earning. And so Sometimes if you're just looking at the net worth all by itself, it can kind of cloud what's going on under the hood on a monthly basis. And then the other big thing that we track is just what I would kind of subjectively call the big monthly expenses. So like, on any given month, I'll sort our spending right in our budgeting software. I'll sort our spending from lowest to highest, and I'll just look at like, what were the big things we spent money on? You know, multiple hundreds of dollars and up. Just so sometimes in review, we look backward and we're like, oh yeah, like did we want to spend money on that? Like, those things kind of add up. So we track those big ticket items too, just for review and just to see where money is going over time.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. Cheryl and I talk about the big items in our weekly meeting. What are those big things? So I love the idea of tracking your net worth and looking at that ladder. I also love tracking your income, Paula. Anything else you track besides those two?

[Paula Pant]

I'd say, I mean, on a month to month basis, predominantly I'm just looking at cash balances particularly I have to move money around sometimes between accounts. So a lot of it on a month to month basis, a lot of it is just cash flow management. But then twice a year I zoom out and bigger picture look at net worth. But I only do that as a manual process. I will literally log into every single account and transcribe those numbers onto a spreadsheet. And I know there's network tracking, there's lots of network tracking software. But I think that there is a moving meditation to manually doing it. But because it's so labor intensive, I do that twice a year.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You know, it's funny, I listed a few just as I was prepping for this net worth tracking cash flow. So we got Jesse's, Anthony's. Well, that really has Paula's too. A debt reduction. The one that I wrote down that nobody mentioned was savings rate. Do any of you really track savings rate changes and try to be more saving this month and then next month?

[Paula Pant]

I don't because my income fluctuates so much.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Gotcha.

[Paula Pant]

If anything, I'm tracking my income rate, not my savings rate.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Okay, Anthony?

[Anthony Weaver]

Yeah, the same. I just make sure how much I can contribute, not so much to Jesse.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Do you watch your savings rate annually?

[Jesse Kramer]

What I try to do, mainly for my wife's benefit too, because she's not in the weeds as much as I am. So I put together this like brief quarterly report and Then a slightly longer annual report for her, just so she feels like, okay, I've got a pulse of all the different moving pieces. And especially in the annual report, I'll pull out all the savings data so that we can both understand our kind of annual savings rate.

[Doug]

Do you guys do this over like a zoom call, or is this with investors?

[Jesse Kramer]

My people. Call her people.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Okay.

[Doug]

All right.

[Jesse Kramer]

Agenda. Very official.

[Doug]

Sounds romantic.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The last one on this might be my favorite. I'm watching this show on Netflix, this reality TV show, Ryan Sirhant. It's Owning Manhattan. You look at all these people with these, and Paula, you get a firsthand look at this every day. $9 million for this apartment. And that's not even one of the nice ones, right? The super nice ones. 50, 40, $50 million to get into these places. You start looking at that, and it makes you think of this, this eighth sign. And the eighth sign is money's a tool, not your identity. But I get this strong feeling from the show how much this piece of property is their identity. And it isn't, by the way, how beautiful the property is. It's the fact that it costs $50 million. That's their identity. It's this. It's this weird flex. I don't know. Is this maybe, Paula, the hardest lesson in personal finance, that money is a tool and not your identity?

[Paula Pant]

Well, I think when you're talking about that level of wealth, in order to obtain that level of wealth, there has to be a certain degree of obsession for most people. You know, there has to be a certain, like, all in. On typically, the business or businesses that you are building to such an extent that all else goes to the wayside. And in fact, you may or may not even be doing that for the money per se. It might be that you're just really interested in. You're. You're very, very invested in the. In growth and in seeing how far you can take this. I think that is actually more often the case. Because if it's simply a means to

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

an end, then I think that definitely is the case. I think their job, in a lot of ways, is their identity. And when I see the people in these apartments, though, I think the apartment is like a status symbol, though. It is 100% a status symbol.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. Well, I think Paulette and I were talking about this the other day. One of the things that you talk

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

about, the writer, Paulette, perhaps for people who don't know which Paulette we're talking about.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah. She was the replacement for me on the stacking Benjamin's podcast a couple years ago, I took a one year hiatus and so Paulette was the new Paula over the span of that year. But we were talking the other day about the fact that in New York throwing a dinner party is a huge status symbol because you are implicitly saying, I got room, I have enough space to have a dining table. You know, and that is such a flex to have a dining table, any dining table, even if it's a fold out card table. Like the fact that you've got enough space for that, that is a huge flex.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's interesting, Anthony, because you and I apparently based on what you said earlier, we both grew up in the opposite side of that. I grew up in a fairly poor part of west Michigan and I just thought wealth wasn't for me. Like it just they were talking to other people. I didn't know anything about any of this stuff. How do you teach that money is a tool and not your identity? For some people on one side, like you and I, that it is a tool and we should be using it, but on the other side it doesn't have to control everything.

[Anthony Weaver]

Yeah, I had a client recently reach out to me and they were just trying to figure out like they had credit card debt, but they were trying to take care of their kids at the same time. But they also had investments. And I was like, well, you already invested in your 401k, this extra money that you just throwing around to invest and you have some dollars that are flexible there. I just thought there as a possibility. I didn't give them advice because I'm not in their advisor, but I was just saying it's like if the money's there as a tool to kind of help you and your family to be comfortable, then just sell the stocks because you got what you need far it's on the back end. You have your retirement set up, you have but your kids need food on the table. And I would rather for you to have food on the table and you can build that up later. But again it each level money as a tool will look differently. And for this moment, this is money is there, it's a tool. You put it as not to look at your investment as a savings. But this is one of those options to look into it just kind of say like, hey, you haven't invested, you have the free money, you don't have the time. And things came up as an emergency. You need this money to, to survive. And I would for the peace of mind going back to using it as a tool in the mindset of this is more than the money at this point. It's about survival and peace of mind. She went on and did it and she said, she said, thank you for the option. I even thought about it that way and she was able to be able to have like, you know, put food on the table, still continue to invest and build that back up.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So, yeah, pretty powerful moment. Jesse, why do so many people tie self worth to their income in their net worth statement?

[Jesse Kramer]

One reason why has to be that money is easy to measure. It's so easy to measure, you can count it. How am I supposed to count my self worth, Joe? I, I just think, you know, I think it's much harder to. Right. It's obviously it's a much harder question.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It is an easy scorecard, though. It's an easy scorecard.

[Jesse Kramer]

Money is. Yeah, it is. It is. I also think there's probably a uniquely American part of this question too. I mean, I am swimming in American waters. I'm sitting inside the American frame. I can't speak as an outsider, but when I hear outsiders speak of American culture and American, you know, the stock market, our corporate culture and capitalism, all that, it sounds like we're probably more money obsessed than a lot of the rest of the world too. So I think some of it might have to be. Some of it probably is uniquely American where it's like, well, yeah, we compare each other in a personal finance sense more than other people in the rest of the world compare one another in a personal finance sense. There's some of that too. I probably need to go, you know, cuddle up with some philosophy books to really start answering your question, Joe. But I think some of it's probably just in that of what other measuring sticks are there? There's my height, there's how far I can throw a baseball, and then there's the. That number at the very bottom of my net worth statement.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We got eight of these today. It strikes me that three of these on the list are stability, that foundation. Three of them are behavior, two of them are mindset. Of the eight, which one of these really speaks to you the most? We'll start. Ladies first, Paula.

[Paula Pant]

You know, going back to the one about living paycheck to paycheck.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

The reason that I like that one is because it's a lesson that applies at all income levels. If you're at a very low income level at a certain point, you can't shrink down any further. So you've got to income up, right?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

But if you're at a higher income level, then it's more a matter of adjusting your spending and adjusting your. The way that you're managing your money. So that lesson applies no matter where you fall on the income spectrum.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Anthony, which one speaks to you the most?

[Anthony Weaver]

For me, it's definitely the money behaviors, mostly because growing up we didn't have much. So that has been my focus, is really trying to make sure that everybody understands their, their triggers, their habits and their needs to kind of make sure that whatever they do and it's actually aligned with all of that so they don't go beyond that or if there's a way to kind of replace that need and trigger.

[Jesse Kramer]

So, yeah, Jesse, my initial answer was exactly what Anthony just said. It was the money behaviors 1. But to mix it up, I will go with prioritizing time and stress reduction over optics. Yeah, because again, I think there, there are different races you can run. And the, the race that says I want every single number to be as optimal as possible so I can get to the finish line the fastest also comes with other types of stress. And so I think when people find a way to balance and say, I actually want to reduce my stress and buy back some of my time, even if it means my numbers aren't perfect, I bet those people actually have better long term outcomes.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's the one that speaks to me the most. Too many of you know, I've been working on this retirement project and putting together a happier retirement, but then just. Jesse, this idea of just solving for happiness is something that gets lost in the weeds. We solve for more money, we solve for more longevity, we solve for so many different things and we forget solving for happiness is a big part of the equation. Great discussion. I hope this helped a lot of our stackers, you know, stop comparing yourself to other people. But also, you know, it's funny to also stop and measure how good it is, what you've done. I think often we're so busy looking at the horizon and the horizon continues to move. The more we move and we just think, oh, I got to hit that next thing. I got to hit that next thing. So if you're able to sit and stop and look back and go, you know what? I've started to build a pretty kick ass foundation. Sure, there's some things I'm not doing as well as I could, but I'm on the road and I'm working on it every day, which is pretty, pretty awesome. All right, let's find out. Speaking of awesome, what's going on? Where all you guys work. We will have our guest of honor, Anthony, go last. So let's start off with Mr. Jesse Kramer over at the Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast. What acronym did we settle on last week? Did we change it up, Doug?

[Doug]

We did. His podcast is now Filthy.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes. What's going on at the Filthy podcast?

[Jesse Kramer]

I know it depends on what day today is. I still think we've had some recent episodes on the 14th, 14 risks that you face in retirement using the Charlie Munger principle of inversion. But if we're past that one, then we've got an AMA coming up. You know, just kind of a classic AMA episode. Four or five questions about retirement planning that I kind of dig in some of the details and help my listeners out.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You know, it's funny, you'd have an ama. Anthony would have an aaa. Ask Anthony anything. You just be aaa.

[Anthony Weaver]

Yeah, aaa.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Paula over there. On the Afford Anything podcast, what's cooking?

[Paula Pant]

On the Afford Anything podcast, we aired recently an interview with Dr. John La Puma. He talks about the importance of going outside. Touch grass. He talks about how your office is killing you. Too much time spent indoors is bad for your health and it's actually bad for your productivity. And he lays out the scientific and medical reasons why that's the case and why you need some outdoor time.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Doesn't specifically talk about basements, does he?

[Paula Pant]

No, no, not specifically basement.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, thank God. Oh, good.

[Paula Pant]

But given that basements are indoors, I think basement is included under category.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, no, I thought we had the little asterisk because basement, really the house? I don't know.

[Paula Pant]

So, yeah, that's on the Afford Anything podcast.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We're finer podcast. Like the filthy podcast. Our phone.

[Paula Pant]

Exactly.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Anthony, thank you so much. We finally got this done, man. It's about time we finally got this done.

[Anthony Weaver]

Like three years late.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Totally. Like the last three fincons in a ro. Hey, we gotta do that. And then we don't. And then I see a podfest and then we don't. And then. Yeah, but we finally did. So what's going on at about that wallet? What's coming up?

[Anthony Weaver]

What's coming up? I got my mom episode coming up. She's finally being on the show. She's always been in the comments and always give me side comments, like, hey, where did you know this person? Where you beat this person? I was like, well, you finally get to be on the show. So we actually talking about her childhood, growing up, having kids and being a underage. Well, I'll say underage. You know, being a 17 year old mom, a teen mom and then just kind of how she's getting ready for retirement. So it's pretty cool.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I was looking at the some statistics at Miller County, Arkansas, which is 800 yards from here, and the statistics of if somebody's a teenage mom, how difficult life is going to be and how much struggle you're going to have. And the struggle is real. Those numbers are pretty ugly as you, you know. First, your mom knows firsthand.

[Anthony Weaver]

Yeah, called the bus everywhere. So that's what we had to do.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, it's good. I love those personal stories and I can't wait to hear mom's story on on the show. Thank you everybody for hanging out with us. We do these live on YouTube. The YouTube audience has been awesome. Great seeing all of you. We are here Monday afternoons reliably. So if you'd like to join us. It's always fun pretending it's Friday on a Monday in mom's basement. We always end the show though with Doug telling us, man, what are the top three takeaways from today's show?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from Anthony Weaver. If you're the leading expert in Uzbeki architecture and you lose your job, make sure your emergency fund bucket is separate from your day to day spending bucket and that it's earning the highest possible interest rate. Second, don't forget when Paula said the thing about automating a portion of your paycheck check to go into a retirement specific fund that'll prohibit you from touching it better than mom whacking your hand with a wooden spoon. But the big lesson, when you're looking for some decorative rocks for your turtles aquarium, maybe don't grab the extra ones in Joe's mom's kitchen. How was I supposed to know those were your favorite kidney stones, Ma? God, put them somewhere else.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh man, who needs William Shatner's kidney stones when you can get moms?

[Doug]

Ma's got a pile of them up on the counter.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Nope. Oh man.

[Doug]

Thanks to Anthony Weaver for joining us today. Be sure to check out his podcast called about that Wallet on just about every platform known to modern man. Still can't find it? You got bigger problems. But don't worry, we'll help by including links in our show [e-mail] thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fabulous podcast afford anything wherever you listen to finer podcasts. And finally, thanks to Jesse Kramer for joining us today. Want to get filthy rich? You'll find his podcast personal finance for long term investors. It's filthy. Wherever you listen to your finest podcast, we'll also include links in our show notes@stacking benjamin.com this show is the property of SB Podcast LLC, Copyright 2026 and is created by Josal Sehai. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello and oh yeah. Before I go. Not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[Paula Pant]

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[Jesse Kramer]

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