A Sandwich Guide to Navigating Inflation (plus how to plug 401k "leakage") SB1717

Summary

The Stacking Benjamins Show: Episode SB1717 – A Sandwich Guide to Navigating Inflation (August 4, 2025)

In this engaging episode of The Stacking Benjamins Show, hosts Joe Saul-Sehy and OG delve into the real-world impacts of inflation through an innovative lens—a sandwich! Joined by guest Len Penzo, an award-winning blogger renowned for his insightful take on personal finance, the trio explores how rising prices of everyday sandwich ingredients mirror broader economic trends. Additionally, the hosts tackle the concerning issue of 401k leakages and offer valuable advice for families grappling with the student loan crisis.

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1. Sandwich Inflation Survey with Len Penzo

Understanding Inflation Through Sandwiches

Joe introduces the segment by highlighting Len Penzo's annual Sandwich Survey, which compares the cost of common sandwich ingredients to gauge inflation's effect on household budgets.

[09:00] Joe Saul-Sehy: "The most fun way to look at inflation? Comparing prices of the products we use every day, like sandwich ingredients."

Key Findings: Significant Price Fluctuations

Len presents the survey results, revealing a 5% overall increase in average sandwich prices. However, the breakdown shows notable volatility:

• Lettuce: Up 40% – A head of lettuce now costs $2.49, translating to 25 cents per BLT serving.
• Eggs: In Southern California, prices surged by 35%, making egg salad sandwiches pricier.
• Tuna: Up 30% – Reflecting ongoing supply issues, the cost of albacore tuna has risen markedly.
• Ham & Bacon: Both up 25% and 20%, respectively, affecting sandwiches that feature these meats.
• Bread: Up 20% – The staple base for all sandwiches.
• Mayo: Up 3% due to shrinkflation, with servings per container reduced from 61 to 59.

[14:03] Len Penzo: "The price of lettuce went up 40%, almost. But the price of tomato came down 25%. So it's interesting how this stuff works when you put it all together."

The Cheapest Sandwich: PB&J Takes the Crown

Despite widespread price hikes, the classic Peanut Butter & Jelly (PB&J) sandwich emerges as the most economical option at 44 cents per serving, continuing its dominance as the go-to budget-friendly lunch.

[23:56] Joe Saul-Sehy: "Peanut butter and jelly went down. As we talked about earlier with the ingredients, I didn't know if it would go down enough, Len, that it would bypass the increased cost of the bread, but it did."

Comparative Analysis: Sandwiches vs. Fast Food

Joe emphasizes the cost-effectiveness of homemade sandwiches compared to fast-food alternatives:

[27:26] Joe Saul-Sehy: "The average price of a Big Mac this year in the United States is $6.20 for just a Big Mac. That's without the fries, without the drink. Compare that to a delicious BLT for $4.20. It's a bargain."

2. 401k Leakage: A Growing Concern

Rising Hardship Withdrawals from Retirement Accounts

Transitioning to financial security, Joe discusses a worrying trend highlighted in a Wall Street Journal article about the outflow from 401k accounts, termed as "leakage."

[44:42] Joe Saul-Sehy: "Americans see their 401ks not just as nest eggs, but as rainy day funds. There's more leakage from the $12.2 trillion in these retirement accounts."

Statistics Highlighting the Issue

• Hardship Withdrawals: Increased from 2% pre-pandemic to 4.8% last year.
• Liquidation Rates: Nearly one-third of employees leaving their jobs cash out their 401ks, incurring taxes and penalties.

[46:08] OG: "This doesn't surprise me because as we've gotten data recently from TransUnion, Experian, and Equifax, we've seen the amount of credit card debt after the pandemic ramp back up."

Implications and Solutions

The hosts discuss the reasons behind this trend, such as increased credit card debt and rising living expenses outpacing wage growth. They stress the importance of having a separate emergency fund outside of retirement accounts to prevent such leakages.

[48:09] OG: "If we did this backwards and maybe should have a cash reserve. Or is it that we burned through our cash reserves and now we're on the next layer there?"

Joe underscores the opportunity costs associated with withdrawing from 401ks, illustrating how long-term financial growth is sacrificed for immediate needs.

[58:57] Joe Saul-Sehy: "He gave up almost half a million bucks. He gave up four between nine and $10,000 for a car."

3. Listener Insight: Navigating the Student Loan Crisis

Caller Christine’s Advice for College-Bound Families

In a unique twist, the episode features a caller, Christine, who offers dual perspectives from her experience in higher education and her husband's success post-community college.

[65:07] Christine: "I would recommend a few things. First, complete the FAFSA. Twenty to 30% of college students don't actually do the FAFSA and could get aid if they actually completed it."

Key Recommendations:

1. Complete the FAFSA: Essential for accessing financial aid, yet underutilized by students.
2. Research Financial Aid on US News: Utilize resources to understand potential aid and average student debt.
3. Align College Choices with Career Goals: Ensure that educational investments are strategic and purposeful.

[66:31] Joe Saul-Sehy: "Don't be among the 20 to 30% she mentioned who don't even apply for aid. You could receive more than you think."

4. Practical Takeaways

Top Three Takeaways for Listeners:

1. Shop Store Brands to Save: Len highlights that buying store-brand products can save up to 40% without compromising on quality.

   [73:53] Doug: "You can save up to 40% by buying the store brand."

2. Complete the FAFSA: Essential for unlocking financial aid opportunities for college students.

   [73:54] Doug: "If you're applying for college, complete the FAFSA."

3. Avoid Complaining About Minor Issues: A humorous reminder to focus on substantial financial strategies rather than trivial complaints.

   [73:53] Doug: "Don't complain to Joe's mom about hot dog buns."

5. Conclusion

Joe and OG wrap up the episode by reinforcing the importance of proactive financial planning, whether it's navigating inflation through everyday purchases, safeguarding retirement funds, or making informed decisions about higher education expenses. They encourage listeners to visit Len Penzo’s blog for detailed Sandwich Survey results and to access their comprehensive financial guides available on StackingBenjamins.com.

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This episode of The Stacking Benjamins Show underscores the multifaceted nature of personal finance, blending practical advice with relatable analogies to empower listeners in managing their money amidst economic fluctuations.

Transcript

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal can help you find and finance the right vehicle with ease. With Navy Federal's car buying service, powered by Truecar, you can find the vehicle that's right for you. As you search through inventory, compare models and you could get an amazing rate when you finance with Navy federal. Visit navy federal.org truecar to learn more. Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Credit and collateral subject to approval. Small business owners State farms there with small business insurance to fit your specific needs. Whether you're starting a new venture or growing an existing one, State Farm helps you choose the right coverage to protect what matters most. Working with a local State Farm agent helps you understand your coverage options, offering local support to help you achieve your goals. Focus on turning your passion into a thriving business, knowing that your insurance can change as your business grows. State Farm here to help you succeed with your business like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. It's Monday. We're talking sandwiches and, you know, pairs great with sandwiches. Beer, a salute to our troops. And thank you stackers for writing in. After Doug, we had the trivia about the number one beer on college campuses.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Ashley said it's probably Bush light.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And Stacker John went to his authority, which is his son who's in college, who said it's probably Natty Light.

[Doug]

Dad, we don't drink beer.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No, not that anyway. No, not beer. A salute to our troops, the people that kept us safe all weekend long. So raise your mugs, everybody, because on behalf of the men and women, make a podcast in Mom's basement with these cool Stacking Benjamin's mugs. And the people serving our troops at Navy Federal Credit Union, our troops, veterans and their families, here's our salute. Let's go stack some Benjamins together now, huh?

[Doug]

Clink.

[OG]

Hey, what you got here that's worth living for? True love. True love. You heard him. You could not ask for a more noble cause than that, Sonny.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

True love is the greatest thing in the world.

[Len Penzo]

Except for nice MLT Mutton, lettuce and tomato sandwich.

[OG]

When the mutton is nice and lean and the tomato is ripe.

[Len Penzo]

They're so perky. I love that.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And what's the the most fun way to look at inflation? How about by comparing prices of the products we use every day, like the ingredients of a brown bag? Lunch. Today we welcome the man behind the best sandwich survey since Wonder Bread, Len Penzo. And in our headline segment. Oh, no, not again. We got leakage. Money is leaking out of one popular account type. The Wall Street Journal shared the story and we'll explain why. You may want to plug that leak. It just. It's gross no matter how you say it. Plus, we'll answer a call from Christine, who thought, you know, I'd better call Saul, Seehi and OG to share advice for college. Thanks, Christine. Wow. All that and my amazing trivia. It's your lucky day. And now, two guys who just turned the water heater into a DIY sauna and called it sweating the dead out. Jo and oh, JJ Juja G.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The DIY Sono works every time, 60% of the time. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Stacking Benjamins. We're so happy that you're here with us. We are the show that teaches you about money, whether it's earning, saving, spending. Get your plan together. We are going to dive into all that today because the man across the card table with me is ready to help me say hello to Len Penzo. Who's back.

[OG]

OG it's about time. I'm very hungry. Skipped dinner yesterday, but we just get.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hungrier when we hear about roast beef and cheddar, turkey and Swiss.

[OG]

We eat a lot of Jimmy John's in our house, by the way. Jimmy John's. If you want to sponsor the show, reach out to us, please. I always get the roast beef and they just added horseradish sauce. So now you can take off the mustard and the mayo, which is awful with roast beef, and do a horseradish sauce. So I'm optimistic that old Lenny's got a horseradish and roast beef sandwich. Sadly, I know how much they are at Jimmy John's. I just wonder how much they are when he makes them.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, if you've listened to Len in the past, he has these static sandwiches he's used for the last many, many years. What's fascinating? Stackers.

[OG]

Come on. Olive loaf.

[Doug]

Liver. Worst. Liver. Worst. Come on, baby.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

If you're new here, you're wondering, why are we talking about sandwiches? Well, it is a fun way for me, the funnest way to think about inflation and to see inflation. What's more real than inflation at the grocery store? And so every year Len shows up, there's one or two sandwiches that spike up. One or two that come down from last year. We talk about why and how that impacts your wallet. This year, I've already seen, guys, the results of this year's study. It is slightly different this year at the grocery store than it's been in the past. So buckle up Stackers, because we're about to have some fun. Len Penzo is, for those of you who are new, an award winning blogger. He's won two Plutus Awards for lenpenzo.com his offbeat blog for responsible people. Len, also called by CBS Money Watch number one blogger in America. Of course, we've been collaborating with Len for 14 years. We've collaborated with the Len Penzo. This is for our Long Term Stackers, one of our favorite recurring shows every year. So let's say hello to him in just a minute. The man, the myth, the legend, Len Penzo coming up. But before that, we have a couple sponsors that make sure that we can keep on keeping on. You have to pay a dime for our wonderful mentors like Mr. Penzo teaching us about inflation and the grocery store. We're going to hear from them first and then Len Penzo, you, me and Sammiches. Do you remember the time before the Internet ruled our lives? Well, before that time, AOL brought America Online with email and Instant messenger. By 2000, AOL was so powerful it set its sights on media giant Time Warner. Deal was supposed to bring us into the future, but instead it became one of the messiest corporate disasters on record. But what went wrong? Was it culture clashes, the dot com crash, or something deeper? Business wars gives you a front row seat to the biggest moments in business and how they shape our world war. Because when your flight perks disappear, your favorite restaurant chain goes bankrupt, or new tech reshapes everything overnight, there's always a deeper story behind the headlines. Follow Business wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can binge all episodes of Business wars, the AOL Time Warner disaster, early and ad free right now on Wonder Plus. This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal can help you find and finance the right vehicle with ease. In this summer, you're in the driver's seat with savings. You could get a $250 bonus when you buy your next car through Navy Federal's car buying service, powered by TrueCar and finance with Navy Federal. With this tool, you can find the vehicle that's right for you as you search through inventory and compare models. And you could get an amazing rate when you finance with Navy Federal. Navy Federal strives to support all active duty veterans and their families to achieve their personal and financial goals. And this partnership with TrueCar is is one of the many tools Navy Federal uses to help its members. Make your plan with Navy Federal in True Car today Navy Federal Credit Union our members are the mission to Qualify for the 250 bonus car purchase and financing must be completed by September 2, 2025. Terms and conditions apply and are available at Navy federal.org truecar Credit and Collateral subject to approval. Navy Federal is insured by ncua. Well, you know what time of year it is we're doing this interview. The sandwich survey is out and that means Len Penzo's back in the basement. How are you, man?

[Len Penzo]

I'm great. I'm getting ready to start school again.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

How about that? Time to bring out the sandwiches again.

[Len Penzo]

Yes.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I want to jump right into the study. We will get back everybody about the common sense math around packing your own lunch versus sending your kids to get the school lunch. Although school lunches in some places. I don't know, man. I see so many school lunches line, they look great other time. Other ones I look at, they look awful.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, it's hit and miss, man. You see those ones with a chunk of cheese and a slice of bread, it's like, who? Oh, it's disgusting. And I bet you if you bite into that piece of cheese, it's all dry and crumbling.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is this school or prison? Yeah, right. Maybe both. I don't know. Here's what I expected, Len. I expected to see more inflation just because I've seen so much inflation just in my own life. I go to the restaurant and I go, what the hell? Like, every time I get a bill, like, what the hell? I see the price of gas that's come down a little bit in our area. But I just feel like my life generally is more expensive than. Than it was a year ago. And yet when it comes to this year's survey, that seems to be wrong. Am I reading that right?

[Len Penzo]

Well, I was expecting the survey to show lower prices.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You were expecting prices actually to recede?

[Len Penzo]

Yes, I was. I really was. And while I was doing the pricing at the grocery store, I was like, wait a minute. What the heck?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What?

[Len Penzo]

What I do is I take all 10 of the sandwiches. I think most people know. I'll go over them real quick. The sandwiches are the peanut butter and jelly, the bacon, lettuce and tomatoes, the ham and Swiss. There's a turkey and Swiss egg salad, salami by, say, bologna, roast beef and cheddar. Roast beef and very good. Yeah, that's a good one. Roast beef and cheddar, the tuna salad.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Salami and then famously, the American cheese.

[Len Penzo]

And of course, the American cheese. And again, I'm going to bring this up every time I said, not just a boring American cheese, folks. It can be a grilled cheese sandwich. It's bread and cheese. You can get creative with it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Okay, we have to laugh about this every year, Stackers, because somebody gave us a review of the show that said sending your kid to school with a cheese sandwich is borderline child abuse, which is. I love.

[Len Penzo]

I love grilled cheese sandwiches. I like a cheese sandwich, too.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But even a cold grilled cheese sandwich is fine, of course.

[Len Penzo]

Yes. Delicious. And as part of the survey, I don't count the tomato. I put a tomato slice on my grilled cheese every time.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, my God.

[Len Penzo]

It keeps. It makes it so good.

[OG]

Where was I?

[Len Penzo]

Oh, yes. So I was expecting a lower price this year for the average price of all 10 of these sandwiches. It actually went up 5%. So if you take all of the prices of all those sandwiches to construct those this year, the average price of this. The average Sandwich went up 5%, which is a shock to me because I really thought it would drop.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I thought it was going to be all time high, and yet it wasn't. It was higher two years ago than it is today. So I expected even higher. But the one thing that we did get, Len, and this I think you're seeing at grocery stores all over the place, some of these prices went down by a ton and some went up by a ton. Like the big lesson I got from this year's survey, we'll dive into it, Stackers, was volatility at the grocery store is real.

[Len Penzo]

Oh, it's crazy. Yeah, it's amazing. Some of these price changes from year to year to year. And some of these price changes, most of these are national. You know, I'm here in Southern California. Most of the prices translate well nationally. However, one item on this list does not. It's usually very local. It's the price of eggs here in Southern California. Again, this is where I was really. My jaw hit the floor. In Southern California, the price of eggs went through the roof compared to last year. Went through the roof. Up 23% over or I think actually up 35%, the price of eggs here in Southern California. So if some of you were out there in, say, Salina, Kansas, or someplace like that, you'll be going, what are you talking about, Penza? That's because the price of eggs are local. So that's the one item. I think I have 18 items on this list. Ingredients, you Know, I get the peanut butter, the salami, the individual, the price of lettuce, turkey, all that stuff. So 18 different ingredients. And I think 10 of those ingredients, 10 or 11, went up, and they went up big. I mean, if you see it, Joe, these prices are, you know, ham up 25%, bacon up 20%, tuna up 30%, the price of lettuce up 40%. These were some huge increases in price.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Generally. When you've done this in the past, the volatility is kind of the exception. It sticks out. I remember the year that salami. Remember the salon, the great salami year?

[Len Penzo]

Yes.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It just went through the roof. And we've had some cheeses from one time to another go through the roof. But now. But now staying. Staying the same.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Staying the same is the thing that is shocking because these prices are all double digit down or double digit up. So let's dive into this. You've got all of the pieces of the sandwich, and if you want to follow along stackers, we'll link to Len's blog post@stacking benjamin.com just go to the show notes and click on. And you can just look through this with us. But big picture here, eggs not up the most. The most is lettuce.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, it was a big jump this year.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

39% increase in the cost of lettuce. We're just talking about head lettuce, right?

[Len Penzo]

That's right. It's a head of lettuce. Yep. What I do is you go, well, how do you figure that out for the price of, you know, a blt, Right. That's the, that's the only item on this list where I use lettuce as a formal ingredient, the blt. And what I do is I take the price of a head of lettuce. I use 10 servings per quote container. So a head of lettuce, there's 10 servings. One serving of lettuce for a BLT would be 25 cents. That's how it would work in this case because the cost this year was $2.49 for that head of lettuce.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I had neighbor friends of mine give me free tomatoes from their garden last year. And, you know, just the taste, Len, as you know, of a garden tomato versus a grocery store tomato, so, so good.

[Len Penzo]

Oh, my gosh. That's the only way. That's the best tomatoes in the world. Homegrown tomatoes.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It was so incredible. Go to a farmer's market, people. But in the grocery store tomatoes, they're down the second Most. Tomatoes down 25%.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, it almost canceled out. The price of the lettuce went up, and that affected the overall price of the blt. So, you know, you'll see that this year the price of the BLT barely budged. Yeah, the price of lettuce went up 40%, almost. But the price of tomato came down 25%. So it's interesting how this stuff works when you put it all together.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We're talking about produce there with lettuce and tomato canceling each other out. But when I said tomato was the second biggest dive. The biggest dive, though, was in the meat department. Salami down almost 30%, I don't think. Have we had a survey yet where we've seen salami price move that much.

[Len Penzo]

In the up direction? Yes. The other way it was back in 2000.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

$19.

[Len Penzo]

Yes, exactly. Very good, Joe. Remember, I've been doing this survey for 17. It's hard to believe. I started this survey in 2009. So I have 17 years worth of data here, which is, you know, each year it gets more and more interesting because there's more and more data to look back on. But, yeah, in 20, Salami just had a terrible year. The price of a sandwich back then was $1.19. That is not inflation adjusted. Compare that to this year. The price of that salami sandwich is only 72 cents. It made a huge move this year. It's one of the cheapest sandwiches you can buy this year.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It cost about the same as it did in 2010. It was 73 cents. Yes, back in 2010. That's incredible.

[Len Penzo]

A lot of these things, it's based on growing seasons or farm. You know, the markets for pork or whatever, I mean, they go up, they go down. You have a bad year in growing season, or you have your. The cattle or whatever, the pigs or whatever, have a bad season for whatever reason that, you know, prices move in one direction or the other. So it's. It is volatile.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You know, just thinking about this, by the way, as an aside line. Have you ever been to one of these bars? They have one in Kalamazoo, Michigan, where I'm from, called a beer exchange. So there's a ticker tape around the top of the bar. At least the one in Kalamazoo has this. And it also has a menu where the prices change. And every time somebody buys a beer, the price goes up. And every time nobody buys a beer for X amount of time, the price goes down.

[Len Penzo]

Very cool.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And so you find yourself, if you stay there for an hour and you have a Couple different beers. You will change beers just based on. Just based on the price tag at a couple times a night, at random times, they will have a market collapse, they call it, where the whole market goes down and they just kind of wipe it out. But every night is different. You have no idea. It depends on what everybody's drinking. It's pretty cool. But anyway, that's what I think of when I think about this salami price fluctuation. Like, I should be chowing on salami now, but maybe just for the next 12 months, I would.

[Len Penzo]

I use the dry salami. This isn't the cheap bologna salami that it's like bologna but they spice it like salami. That's. You can buy that kind of slime. It's super cheap. Now this is what's called the dry hard salami.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This is very good on a charcuterie tray as well.

[Len Penzo]

Yes, exactly. This is really good, high quality salami that I've been using for the survey forever. I'll spoil, you know, spoiler. This obviously didn't come in first, but it's one of the tops. And this is probably for me, this is the best value sandwich this year, is the salami sandwich.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, sure, it looks like it to me. Let's go back to the ones that went up the most again. Lettuce up the most, eggs up second. Third place is tuna. Tuna was already expensive, Len, and Now it's up 30% more.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, tuna has been. It's been in a bad spot in the past few years. It went up 97% in 2022. The price of tuna. This is albacore tuna. Now, this is the good stuff. It fell back 90 cents over the following two years, which gave a little relief to us tuna lovers because I love tuna. But now it's back on the rise again and it went up 30% again. So after a couple years of relief, we're feeling the pain again with tuna, unfortunately.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. Back in 2022, and I remember this because there was some nationwide tuna fishing issue. It went from 155 to. Not nationwide, excuse me, worldwide tuna fishing issue from 155 to 283. And it's headed back there again to price of a tuna salad sandwich. And we'll get to the overall sandwich prices here in a minute, but coming back strong and not in a good way. And then next. And this is the one that's going to make most people grown, Len, number four on this list. I look. Oh, no, wait a minute, I almost forgot. Ham. Ham. Up 25% from last year.

[Len Penzo]

What can I say about ham? The price, it dropped pretty good last year, but it's back up. It's one of those middling sandwiches. It's a good. It doesn't really go up a lot. Doesn't go down a lot from year to year. This year it did see a little. The price of ham did go up a bit. But it's not one of those sandwiches that it's always going to be in the middle of the pack of. Of all the sandwiches.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And then tied next and again, 20% increase in. Tied for fifth. Tied for fifth on this list. That's crazy. A 20% increase is tied for fifth. Wheat bread. And the one I said people are going to grow in at 20 increase in bacon. Say it ain't so, Len. Oh, I say it. Come on.

[Len Penzo]

It's a shame and I'll be honest. Okay, so what I do when I do this survey, I don't stick to one brand. What I do is I look at all the bacon on the shelf or anything, whether it's mayonnaise or mustard or turkey, I look at everything being offered and I pick the lowest per unit cost item and that's what I go with. Whatever the cheapest was. So in this case, for bacon, there was one available. There was this huge pack of 32 slices of bacon. I can't remember how many pounds that was. It was basically four strips of bacon per serving. There was almost 31 slices of bacon in there.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Huge container.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, it was a huge container. And the price still went up 20% with that huge container. If you bought the basic 1 pound bacon, it went up even more. It went up like, you know, 40%, I think it was.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So if you're cooking for one or two and don't have a lot of storage, oh my gosh, this number is going to be way bigger.

[Len Penzo]

It's painful. It's painful. Usually they don't have this huge package of bacon there on the shelf, but this year they did. And it was. Like I said, it was still up 20%, which is just amazing. Shows you how high the price of bacon went up this year.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's crazy. But again, tied for fifth. Yeah, tied for fifth at 20%.

[Len Penzo]

Bread. And the thing with bread is when the price of bread goes up, every sandwich has.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Every sandwich.

[Len Penzo]

So right off the bat you're. There's a 20% increase just on your most basic ingredient of the sandwich. So, yeah, that's when bread hurts, when the price goes up.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The only other increase and the only increase I Would call normal mayo went up by 3%. Big deal.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah. Now, here's the interesting thing. On mayo, the price went up 3%. If you looked at the previous year, the price didn't change. The cheapest mayo on the shelf there at my local grocery store was 499, just like last year. But what changed was the servings per container. The servings per container went from 61 to 59. And there's your 3% shrinkflation. So if you're not paying attention, you'll say, oh, price of mayo didn't go up at all. No, it did because they reduced the servings per container. The container size fell.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm just thinking about. We just went to the grocery store last weekend, and I even remember thinking, is this mayo container smaller than before? 2, 3, 4. Ingredients did not change. Price of mustard didn't change. Price of roast beef, thank goodness, did not change. The price of baloney did not change. And the price of American cheese did not change. And then let's talk about what actually fell in value. Unless you've got any comments about those. Any weirdness in those. Zero out.

[Len Penzo]

No, it's interesting. It's American and cheddar cheese tend to go in lockstep pretty close. If Swiss cheese is the outlier. If you're a Swiss cheese lover, that price can go up or down in large movements from year to year. And I don't know what the difference is there. I know American cheese isn't really. Unless you're getting it from the deli. You can't get good deli American cheese. But usually the processed stuff. The stuff I'm talking about here is the processed American cheese. But the Swiss cheese. Yeah. It tends to make big movements compared to the other two cheeses.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But it's wild because versus everything else. Len cheeses were pretty mild. I mean.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

In a normal year, you and I talk, talking. And if I told everybody Swiss cheese and cheddar cheese went down by 8%, I would say, wow, that's a big move. That ain't a big move because we. We're gonna dive into some other ones that went down a ton. More like, down 8%. Okay, big deal. But more Swiss cheese, though, is good. I. I'm one of those Swiss cheese fans, like.

[Len Penzo]

Oh, I am too.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. Speaking of Swiss cheese, Swiss cheese is twin. A turkey on a sandwich down 17. And strawberry jelly down 17%. Only eclipsed by peanut butter down 14%. Peanut butter and jelly down.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah. That's good news. If you're a young kid and you like your PB&J's.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I mean, I can be 57 years old, like my PB&J.

[Len Penzo]

Well, let's face it, the PB&J, we all know this. It's always the top three sandwiches every year, bar none. It's the cheese, it's the PB and J, and it's the bologna. The question is, and you're probably gathering what's probably the top dog this year, but those are the three most economical sandwiches year in and year out. Although there's a very interesting trend that's occurring and it's been occurring over the last five years. And we can talk about that when we go through the individual sandwich rankings.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, the thing is starting to strike me. This is a hypothesis. We'll see if it makes it to the end of the show. But this is a case of the cheaper sandwiches get cheaper and the more expensive sandwiches get more expensive. Like looking at this list of ingredients, the ones that tended to be on the high end, like, there's a big difference in sandwiches. The delta between them seems to be spreading. But we can talk about that later. All right, 14% decrease in the price of peanut butter, 17% in strawberry jelly and turkey. And I love it. Len, people have fought with you about why you would use strawberry versus grape. That's for a different day.

[Len Penzo]

The grape lovers, please hold your emails. I'm tired of it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The Grape Growers association all up in arms. And then the tomato we mentioned at a 25 drop, and salami, 29 drop. All right, Len, let's put these together. Last year we saw the blt. I think almost every year the BLT is most expensive, isn't it?

[Len Penzo]

I think one year it crept to number nine. But yes, other than that, the other 16, 15 times it's been the most expensive sandwich. Yes.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So before we get into this cost per sandwich, let's just make the case, Len, for the idea of packing your lunch versus buying a lunch, what is the savings you think for the average person when it comes to buying a lunch? Before we get into this cost per.

[Len Penzo]

Sandwich, I go to howmuch is it.org every year to see what the average price across the nation is for a high school lunch. Not just high school, all the schools, primary and secondary and high school lunches. And this year they said is 350 again. So that's the price if you went to school and got a lunch there. Generally, the sandwiches, my sandwiches in this list range from $0.44 to $4.20 per sandwich. Okay. You throw In a banana, you can get a banana for probably 25 cents to 30 cents at the store. On a per banana basis, you get a little small bag of chips. You know, you buy a big bag of 30 of them at Costco, it's probably another 30, 40 cent. So let's say 75 cents for chips and a piece of fruit and then the sandwich. What do you got there? The 75 cents and 44 cents? You're just over a buck, maybe a buck 50 per lunch. Per brown bag lunch. If you bought the one of the cheapest sandwiches, a fruit and some chips.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, you want the dollar menu. There it is.

[Len Penzo]

There it is. Yeah, absolutely. And I always point this out every year as well. Even the blt, which we know is the most expensive sandwich year almost year in and year out. This year it's $4.20. But the average price of a Big Mac this year in the United States is $6.20 for just a Big Mac. That's without the fries, without the drink. So compare that to a delicious BLT for 420, and it's a bargain. The BLT is still a bargain. And it's healthier for you too.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I just even looked up the price of the Whopper. The average Whopper right now cost $8.19.

[Len Penzo]

Oh, holy smokes. Wow. Whopper's good, though. I like Whoppers.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I do like the Whopper as well. It doesn't help that we're doing this right before lunch. Yeah, that's true. All right, next time, we got to schedule this for right after lunch. Of course. That will be sleepy. Let's jump back into this. You compare the prices of these sandwiches. Bacon, lettuce, and tomato. Still the most expensive sandwich. $4.20. That price went down 4% from last year. Went up or went up? I'm sorry. Yeah. Red is up.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah. Only listen, there's only two sandwiches went down this year. The price of two sandwiches went down. One we already mentioned was the salami, and the other, you can. Based on what we just talked about, you can tell it's the PB and J. Other than that, the roast beef and cheddar stayed the same. Everything else went up, and most of them went up a pretty good chunk. Most of these sandwiches went up in price.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The sandwich is far more expensive this year than last year. It was number five on the list of cheap sandwiches last year. Now it's number six. Ham and Swiss.

[Len Penzo]

Correct.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Up almost 30%. 29% increase in ham and Swiss.

[Len Penzo]

Yep.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And that's the price of the ham. That's the price of the bread.

[Len Penzo]

The ham and the bread. And a little bit. Well, the mayo's 3%. Yeah. That didn't really make a big difference.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No. Egg salad up 23% was number four on the list last year. It's number five now.

[Len Penzo]

Right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And again, the price of eggs, the price of bread, and the price of mayo all went up.

[Len Penzo]

Yep.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The salami sandwich went almost cut in half. Point 72 went from seventh most expensive on the list to third on the list. What a move.

[Len Penzo]

I'd have to double check that. But I am almost positive this is the biggest move any sandwiches made in any year is remarkable. It went from number seven to number three this year. And again, this is good quality salami. This is, you know, hard, dry salami. Just delicious. This is the type of salami you could put on a charcuterie. How do you say charcuterie?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Board charcuterie.

[Len Penzo]

Really good stuff. And it came in at third at 72 cents for one sandwich. You can't beat it. Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Peanut butter and jelly at 44, winning the day again. It's always peanut butter jelly versus bologna. But peanut butter and jelly went down. As we talked about earlier with the ingredients, I didn't know if it would go down enough, Len, that it would bypass the increased cost of the bread, but it did.

[Len Penzo]

It did. And let me. So I kind of hinted at this earlier in the skip, but there's a real interesting Trend. In the 17 years, Bologna has either shared the top spot or had the top spot on its own. I think it's now 13 of the 17 years. Maybe it's 12 of the 17 years. Baloney was always the king. In the last five years, PB&J has been creeping up. And now PB&J is the cheapest sandwich at 44 cents a sandwich. This year. It's the second year in a row.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, three of the last four.

[Len Penzo]

And over the last five years, there's been a change. And it looks like the PB&J is exerting its dominance now in the cheapest.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Sandwich race over the period of time, 2009 to today. Baloney still, though, on average has been the cheapest at 40 cents. PB&J at 42.

[Len Penzo]

That's correct. That's over all 17 years. 40 cents.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Len Penzo]

Over the five years, though, PB&J is the five year rolling average is 45 cents for the PB&J and 48 cents for the baloney. I mean, we're equivalent over three cents. But hey, if we're going to award a crown here. You know, give, give PB and J it's due. There's one other sandwich that has dropped in price the last three years. There's been. There's two sandwiches that over the past three years have dropped in price every year. PB&J was one. The turkey is the other. There's only one sandwich in the survey that has gone up three consecutive years. That is the baloney sandwich, which is very interesting. That's the only sandwich that's gone up three years in a row. And two sandwiches this year hit their all time high prices ever in the.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That was my next question. So you beat me to it.

[Len Penzo]

Okay. And that's roast beef and egg salad. In the 17 years of the survey, they've never been higher. Those prices. So roast beef and egg salad are at all time highs.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It'd be interesting. We didn't look at Arby's, you know, with roast beef prices up and roast beef sandwiches, they have the meats.

[Len Penzo]

I used to get those coupons in the mail for Arby's and it'd be five beef and cheddars for $5. And then somewhere on there then it was five, just five. Was it beefs without the cheddar for $5. And now I don't even think you can get one beef and cheddar for $5, you know, but I remember those coupons. Five beef and cheddars for five dollars. Yeah, I'm old. I'm old folks.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But inflation is real and it's wild because through most of my lifetime and years, Lamb, we really didn't notice it. But the last few years, man, I don't think it's just getting older. I think we have seen some inflation.

[Len Penzo]

And if you come to my site and you look at the charts, I have all kinds of charts here. And I have one, a graphical chart showing from 2009 to 2025. You can see a line chart of how the price has gone up and down and up and down of the average sandwich price over those 17 years. It's trended up almost the whole time. But you'll notice that starting in 2018-2025, it's basically been going up at a 45 degree angle, that price. Except there was that spike during the COVID period there. 21 and 2022 and 2023, it spiked up. Then last year it came back down and it's resuming that 45. It's almost a perfect 45 degree angle that the prices have been going up since 2018. I don't know if we're going to see any more relief in prices at this stage of the game.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And I remember during the pandemic, I remember hearing Marco Rubio saying this. And it's interesting because I think this was at the time a bipartisan len. Republicans, Democrats, everybody saying, listen, we're either going to have to fix the climate for businesses later or we're going to have to help businesses now. And the way that we're going to do that is we're going to flood the system with money. And what everybody said is, obviously there's no such thing as a free lunch. I was very happy to see. Yeah, I was very happy to see people use that money in great ways. They paid off debt. You saw people get out of debt. You saw people do. Wait. My belief in humanity went through the roof during that period when I saw how people actually used it versus the way I thought people would use some of that money that was spread in the system. But you're seeing it come back. Everybody at the grocery store, I mean, it's right here in front of you. You flood the system with money and that creates inflation. And that pandemic, period. Pandemic ish period, really shows up on this graph.

[Len Penzo]

It's really wild. But like. And then the year before, it corrected, but it didn't correct that much, and now it's just resuming its upward trend. It's fascinating, actually. The longer the survey goes, the more fascinating the data becomes to me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Anyways, the thing that I liked about the difference between 2024 and 2025 in aggregate, if I just look at your line graph, the line is not that hella up that we had during the pandemic. It's up, but it's more like the 2012, 2013 Up. It's a milder up this year. Yeah, but that, that disguises the fact to me, and this is what I found interesting about this year's study. While this looks like a calming down overall, you go to the grocery store land, it's a show. It's either way up or way down. Yeah, there's not much middle ground.

[Len Penzo]

Like I said, when I went to the bacon section this year, my jaw dropped. I couldn't believe, you know, and it's not like I haven't been eating bacon, but I don't do the shopping. You know, the, the honeybee does the shopping in this house. So, you know, I don't see it. I see the final bill, but I don't see all the individual components of that bill and boy, what an eye opener for me this year. That's just crazy. Crazy.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

One thing you know here, Lem, is that you can save a ton of money if you focus on store brand products. I know all the years you've done this, you found buying the store brand saves you a lot more than I think the average person thinks it does.

[Len Penzo]

Yes, it saves you a lot. And as my taste tests have shown over the years, you know, I do these blind taste tests with my family. I think I've tested probably 40, 50 products over the 17 years that I've had my blog. Many times the store brand actually tasted better. So it was cheaper and it tasted better. Not every time. Sometimes it the store brand was crap, but many times the store brand actually tasted just as good or better. It's at least always try it the first time and if you don't like it, then you can go back to your national brand. But the discounts usually for a store brand, typically 30 to 40%. It's incredible items.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thank you again, Len for sharing this with us. Super fun. You can see all the [e-mail] we'll have a link, but it's really easy. Lenpenzo.com just go there. If for the next week it'll be on the front page. Just scroll down and you will find the links to all this. Goodness. This is so fun. One of my. Well, not just mine, the stackers that have been here forever. I now share the fact that they always look forward to this, this episode and what happened this year. So thanks a ton, Len.

[Len Penzo]

You're very welcome, Joe.

[Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom, neighbor Doug and I was just flipping through the calendar of today's date in history and we got some great ones today. First, back in 2006, the Shizuoka Meat producers of I gotta make mistake just.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Like, just like a native, and I.

[Doug]

Gotta say it again, of Shizuoka, Japan. And this is now. They made it easy for me. And the All Japan Bread association collaborated to create what was at the time the biggest hot dog of all time. Listen to this, guys. It was 197ft long.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Holy cow.

[Doug]

I know you guessed it. The bun was still too long, measuring 198ft. So even then they couldn't get the bun to fit the damn hot dog. You gotta be kidding me. That record, by the way, was broken in 2011 by an even longer hot dog. I mean, I don't want to brag, but. And you pick up what I'M laying down there.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I did just keep going. Please God.

[Doug]

But that's not today's trivia question. Because we need it's got to be about money, right? Not an existential conundrum like why is there a difference between the size of the hot dog and the bun? Or why are there more dogs in the package than there are buns in the package? Those are like life's bigger questions. But how about this one? Back in 1916, the USA entered into a treaty to buy what group of Islands for $25 million. I'll be back right after I check to see if we got mustard. Time to bring out the dogs and celebrate that you are about to nail this trivia question.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

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[Len Penzo]

Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're getting carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I almost couldn't breathe when I saw.

[Len Penzo]

The discount they gave me on my first order.

[OG]

Oh, sorry.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.

[Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Mam Mustard, only fanatic and guy who knows a Chicago dog is an affront to humanity. Tomatoes.

[OG]

Come on.

[Doug]

Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. While my mind is on hot dogs, it should be on the USA entering into a treaty back in 1916 to purchase a nice little set of islands from Denmark for 25 million bucks. I have it on good intel that they didn't even need to take out a home equity loan to afford that. Nice work, usa. It's manage your finances. What islands were they? If you said the US Virgin Islands, you'd be correct. And now back to two recent virgins who somehow found a way into the incredibly manly world of personal finance podcasting. Joe and og.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I was just waiting for it. I knew we couldn't have trivia about the Virgin Islands without Doug. Somehow I'm surprised that you didn't do the Virgin Islands and hot dog and do something there. I don't know. But thanks to Len Penzo for joining us.

[Doug]

That would be low brow Joe. We don't play that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Low brow. Never. Oh, gee. PB&J. You big PB&J fan.

[OG]

You know, not. Not as much anymore. I do like putting a scoop of peanut butter in like a protein shake or something. Padding a little bit. But, you know, we got a peanut allergy, kid, so it's a lot of fun around here.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

One of those.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So the BLT loser. Mind him every day. If it weren't for you, we'd be having a lot more fun.

[Doug]

And this is why you're not my favorite kid.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You were so close. So the BLT rebounding back upward a couple years ago, it was at five bucks sandwich. Yeah, but you know what's fun? The blt.

[OG]

Crappy salad.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Are you kidding me? What if I had the choice between a BLT or a Big Mac? I think I'm with Lenny. I'll go BLT over Big Mac any day of the week.

[OG]

I'd go hungry.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You do neither one of those.

[OG]

No, I mean roast beef. I'd pick a Big Mac, but only because, you know, why not? But a bacon sandwich with a tomato and lettuce on it.

[Len Penzo]

Mighty tasty.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Okay, let's go through these. Second second most expensive sandwich was tuna salad. Do you like tuna salad sandwich? Yeah.

[OG]

Yeah. I could put down a can of tuna.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Toasted bread. I can do that. Doug's. Doug's going now.

[OG]

Well, pickles. Pickles in there.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes. Oh, yeah.

[Doug]

Chicken salad. That exact same thing, but chicken salad. All about it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I can do both. I'm. I'm an either or. I'm equal opportunity.

[OG]

There's a Matthew McConaughey video not too long ago about him making tuna salad. He's got a pretty sweet tuna salad recipe.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, yeah. Roast beef and cheddar is next. How about that one?

[OG]

Yeah. All day, every day.

[Doug]

Swiss. Got to be Swiss, not cheddar.

[OG]

Roast beef and Swiss.

[Doug]

Yeah, absolutely.

[OG]

God, they do stuff freaking backwards in the backwoods of Michigan.

[Doug]

Basically all Swiss all the time on sandwiches.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It doesn't matter. And how about the Costa salami sandwich going from a dollar 35 to 72 cents. Yeah, salami sandwich. I like salami on a charcuterie board with a glass of red wine. But the sandwich.

[OG]

Salami on a sandwich on top of another piece of meat.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

There you go.

[OG]

Yeah, like a turkey sandwich with a little salami on it.

[Doug]

Interesting.

[OG]

Wow. But not Swiss.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hey, let's do a headline. Hello, darlings. And now it's time for your favorite.

[Len Penzo]

Part of the show, our stacking Benjamin's headlines.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Our headline today was written by the anturgeson and comes to the rescue. Again, just a fantastic writer over at the Wall Street Journal and says leakage, guys. Leakage. Not a term guys want to hear. But Americans see their 401ks not just as nest eggs, but as rainy day funds. There's more leakage from the $12.2 trillion in these retirement accounts. Ann says last year, record 4.8% of workers in 401k plans took a hardship distribution for financial emergencies, up from a pre pandemic average of about 2% according to the Vanguard Group. And nearly one third of people who leave jobs annually liquidate their 401ks paying taxes and often penalties rather than keeping the money in a retirement account. I want to pump the brakes here. OG Part of this doesn't surprise me because as we've gotten data recently from Transunion, Experian and Equifax, we've seen the amount of credit card debt after the pandemic ramp back up. So we've seen families go back to spending more than they make in some circumstances. So that doesn't surprise me. But to go OG from a pre pandemic, 2% of people taking hardship withdrawals to 4.8% of people taking hard chip withdrawals, that's a significant increase of people going, you know what? This is my new emergency fund.

[OG]

Yeah, don't do that. I think it's a good reflection on the fact that people have been saving in their 401 plans. Maybe out of order. Maybe we did this backwards and maybe should have a cash reserve. Or is it that we burned through our cash reserves and now we're on the next layer there?

[Doug]

Yeah. You know what I suspect is did everybody get addicted to that sweet, sweet tarp money or whatever it was called? And then when that ran out during the co. During COVID people were seven.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That sweet gov.

[Doug]

Mint money, that government money, that cheese, the cheddar, that's the only time I ever saw.

[OG]

I mean, that's washed through the system years ago.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's gone.

[Doug]

I mean, honestly, who knows? But I mean, people got a whole bunch of money in 20, 20, 20, 21, and they got kind of used to that. And then once the thrill of the new car, the new house that they bought with all of that. That money that they had, maybe they're now looking for the next cash infusion and they're getting it from the Doug.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The data shows that people actually did good things with that money. We paid down debt. You know, debt levels actually decreased during that time. People built emergency funds. Like, that was exciting. And then it was almost the second the pandemic. It was almost the second the pandemic ended. That, according to, you know, the numbers we saw from TransUnion and Experian, was people going, hey, oh, the party's restarted again. It's time for me to go spend a bunch of money that. That I don't have. But I really like where you're rolling here. OG that, okay, we're saving money into our 401k, which is a great thing. Like, what about that do we like. And can we replicate that but in an account where it actually makes sense? So I think the key here is that we're taking money out of our paycheck before we see it. I think that's probably the magic sauce. Right? Get that direct deposit working for you. And once the money is in a separate account that you think of that, it's for emergencies, aka people thinking the 401k, you can kind of replicate that, but with a separate savings account instead and would probably be a ton better.

[OG]

Yeah. The data suggests that defaults are starting to increase a little bit in some areas. Student loans are the primary default location. Makes sense. That's the thing that hurts you the least. Auto loan defaults are the next. And then credit cards and mortgages are on the rise. Still low. What's interesting though, and I haven't really spent a lot of time on this, and maybe you guys can think about this with me, but overall percentage of household debt to income is still pretty low. So you can kind of think about how it's gone through waves. It was really high in 2007, 2008, 2009. Cratered down as everybody kind of washed the books. Kind of trickled back up again a little bit before COVID cratered down again. To your point, Joe, where people said, oh, I got an extra 2,500 bucks, I should pay off my debt with this. And now it's back to 10, 11%, which is historically not bad. It's below average. So why is it, do you think it's just inflation and wage growth not keeping up? That debt service is still a low percentage, but like living expenses are higher and that's causing people to, you know, to have to think about these longer term buckets. I think about it like, you know, short, medium and long term bucket. And if I burn through all my short, medium money and I still need money, I mean, it's, you know, I got to get. I got money, I'm going to use it. Right?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[OG]

So is it just inflation? Is it just wage growth? Not good.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I don't know. I went to Mexican restaurant last night downtown. Two of us now, admittedly we had a couple drinks.

[OG]

You did go with the guac?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, yeah. We went ahead of time with the queso, the baked queso. We both had an entree, we had two drinks. Each was a fun little night for Cheryl and I.

[OG]

125, a hundred bucks.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It wasn't 125. It was a hundred bucks for two of us. It's incredible.

[Doug]

Here's the thing. You're not dipping into your 401k because your cost of Restaurant visits have gone up. If you are, it's, I mean, because your major month to month cash flow items on your, on your books as a person living anywhere is housing, transportation, health care. Yeah, those are going up some. But all the other stuff, it's because you're spending money where you probably don't really need to be spending money. It's, I think it's easy to blame on those things that are put in front of our faces every day, like the cost of baloney going up. But that's not what's really causing you to dip into, in my opinion, in not what's really causing you to dip into your 401k. You're spending money you don't need to spend somewhere else.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But I think that's why, I think that is why I think it is the restaurant. I didn't need to go to a restaurant last night. Don't get me wrong, we could afford it. We had a good time. But if I'm spending $100 at a restaurant and I don't have the money in my bank account to afford that hundred dollar night out, and I'm not really tracking it, I think that is the, I think the inflationary effect for a person that doesn't track their money is this. Prices go up. I don't really notice it. I kind of notice it, but I don't really notice it. But I keep my habits exactly the same. I'm not tracking it. And a few months later I'm like, what the hell? How come I think, yeah, all of a sudden I got the credit cards. I'm not paying off every month.

[Doug]

Yeah, maybe we're, we're agreeing with each other, but I think you're dipping into the 401k not because your core things in your budget are going up, but because of poor spending habits.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But I think that is move number two, Doug, that you're pointing out. Move number one, I think is automating to a place where you have the money available outside the 401k if it's an emergency fund. And then number two is you got to start tracking your expenses just to see how it differs from week to week.

[OG]

OG no, I was just going to agree with both of you. I think to your point, Joe, it's. What's that?

[Doug]

You're agreeing with us. This is awesome.

[OG]

No, I think that it's the combination of not seeing the death by a thousand paper cuts and also just continuing to live your life when something is askew somewhere else. Either income hasn't increased or you had a one off expense that was higher than you had the ability to cover. And so that sat on the credit card. And now to your point, you're still going out to the Mexican restaurant on Tuesdays because that's what you do. And you haven't accounted for either that one off thing or the slow increase of something, whatever it is, you know, whether it's food or whether it's auto costs or you have an adjustable rate mortgage and adjust. I mean we just, my middle kid, everybody knows, probably because we talked about it a lot, just turned 16 and you go online and you say, okay, he doesn't have a learner's permit anymore, he has a driver's license. We added zero cars. We've not purchased another car. So we have still three cars, but now we have four drivers for three cars. Our car insurance went from an extremely obnoxious thousand dollars a month to now an even more extremely obnoxious $1,900 a month. It doubled almost by adding one more person without another car. And so then when I put in the model of like, oh, what if we bought a Toyota Camry for William? It's like, yeah, it'll be like another 70 bucks. So it's not even the. It's the fact that he exists. It's not the fact that he has a car to drive. It's the fact that he exists.

[Doug]

Again, this is the peanut allergy kid too, right?

[OG]

Yeah, I know.

[Doug]

I think he is plummeting down the chart.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Another strike.

[OG]

And yes, we are shopping it. In fact, I think shopping for a new kid, no auto insurance. I think I've got a bit on this for a week or two from now about the power of shopping for it. We haven't settled on it yet, but anyways, all that to say that's unavoidable, right? Like you just, I mean, I could make it so my kid doesn't have a driver's license, I suppose, but you know what I mean, like it's just life. And maybe the extremeness of that is unique to me, but I think the ratio is the same. I think if anybody else has an 18 year old, a mom and a dad, and then adds a 16 year old boy to it, the effect is the same, plus or minus a little bit. And so if we're not counting on that, if we're not going like, oh, that's another $900 a month to dump into the budget if we're already, you know. Right. Even money, where's that going to go? Well, it's going to get added to the credit card bill and then that rolls forward. And if we don't go, hold on a second, we have to take a few months off of the. Off the Mexican restaurant.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This is where I think the family meeting comes in. Because that weekly meeting where you're looking down the road and going, oh, let's look ahead in the future and see what the bump's going to be. That $900 bump isn't going to be nearly as egregious as it is when you're just blindsided. Right?

[OG]

Yeah, I mean, I was blindsided usually pretty good about this, but I didn't know it was gonna be that bad. I was like, that one's a two.

[Doug]

By four to the face for sure.

[OG]

Wait a second, that cannot be true. But I use, and I've talked about this quite a bit. I think there's tracking, which is super important. Right. Get a sense of where all the bodies are buried. If you don't have Monarch or they don't even mint anymore. But you know, something that like literally just downloads stuff automatically. Pay cap and you can.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah.

[OG]

So with your bank app, what we do is I take a calendar like this right here, like that, and I literally write on the calendar when stuff comes out of the bank account. Because I think about it like from a planning standpoint in advance. If you're budgeting backwards, you know, that's good. If you're cash flow planning over the next quarter in advance and you can say, hey, you know, I got five grand in my checking account. I get paid on this day. This is when the mortgage comes out. This is the Amex bill. Da da da da da. When you get to the end of that month and you see what the outcome is, hey, I'm plus a thousand, I'm negative 900. Whatever. It gives you the power to make the choice proactively. And maybe the answer is there is no choice. I'm going 900 in the hole. I need to take this from my savings account to account for it. I need to take this out of my 401 to account for. At least you're proactively managing that in advance as opposed to it reactively happening. But the unique thing that happens with all this is your brain already solves the problem. Your brain doesn't know the difference between imagination and reality. So the fact that you've solved this for the next quarter and you go, at the end of the quarter, I'm negative 1000 bucks, your brain goes, we're out of money. Bro, you will stop seeing things on Amazon. You will stop having the idea of going out to dinner because your brain goes, we don't have the money. We know that In September we're 1000 bucks in the hole. So how we can't go out to dinner this week ever. Very powerful to do. So if you're not doing some, some sort of ongoing, you know, in advance cash flow planning, I think, I think you're missing out.

[Doug]

I like everything that he just said, Joe, but here's what offended me. He just held up a piece of paper with handwriting all over it for his planning. And we're the old guys on this.

[OG]

Podcast you should see have these little cards.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The tactile miracle of just writing stuff down is so there's value to that.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

By the way, og, it's funny how we do things very similarly there. I also have written when the big chunks are coming out of my account on my Google calendar.

[OG]

So each week is a Google calendar. It's just a printed Google calendar.

[Doug]

The printed one, yeah. It's all that he wrote with ink.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The last thing I want to talk about here because I like the idea of automation. I like the idea of tracking. I like the idea of training your brain ahead of time and knowing where the levers are. The last piece Ann writes about, she said this 401k leakage has become so common that people often post about it on social media. A woman who said on Tick Tock that she cashed out her 401k savings to pay off debt reported being happy with the decision despite paying taxes and the 10 penalty people under 59 and a half years old typically owe. I love the way Anne writes because she leads us into. I think the other thing we don't understand, we make these decisions is opportunity cost. And I want to walk through one more time for our stackers. There was a gentleman named Tom who was in my office. I don't remember the exact numbers. I actually have the exact numbers back in my book. But I'm going to make them up for now because I didn't go through and re verify. But it doesn't matter. Let's say Tom at 25, I think it was roughly $14,000 he had guys. And by the way, at $25,000, at 25 years old, $14,000 in your 401k. Is that good?

[OG]

Hell yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That we just don't see it. We just never saw. If you're at 25 years old and you've got 14,000 there, it's great. Well, he got let go by this small engineering firm. Now, the cool thing is he got hired almost immediately by a bigger firm, and he was going to have some decisions to make. So he's got this 14,000 sitting in the old 401k and the three legal things he can do. Number one, he can roll it over to the new place. Number two, he can leave it alone if the company will let him just leave it there. Third thing is, he could roll it to an ira, which is generally, usually the right choice, but he didn't like any of those. Guess what he did. Took it out. Like this woman here. And he was happy. He took it out because he was buying. Guess what he was buying?

[Doug]

Salami boat.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, close. It was a car. Yeah. So buying a car, when you've got $14,000 in a 401k and you go to buy a car, A, that doesn't cover the cost of a new car, and B, it's not even 14,000 bucks because you have the tax bill and then you have the 10 penalty. So you have all of this money. At the end of the day, he's got what, maybe nine grand? Ish.

[OG]

Yeah, 10. Maybe.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, yeah, maybe. Take the nine or 10,000 and he still has a car payment versus he could have left that money alone. This is why we weigh opportunity costs before we, quote, feel good like this woman on TikTok did. Women on TikTok felt good because it feels good. Hey, guess what? I didn't put as much money down on the car. Let's make you feel like crap. Because if you get 9% on that money, which over long periods of time, not tough to do, Use this rule called the rule of 72. You take the interest rate you think you're going to get divided into 72, tells you how many years it takes it to double. So nine divided into 72, divided by 72 is eight years. So his money would have doubled. He's 25. His money would have doubled at 33, at 41, at 49, at 57, and again at 65. Right. So five times by normal retirement age. Tom, who is the son of one of my clients who sent him to me, goes, you just got to go. You just got to go. See Joe about this, because I don't think this was a good idea. $14,000. That first doubling makes it 28. The second doubling makes it 56. The third doubling is 112. The fourth doubling, 224. 448,000 bucks. He gave up almost half a million bucks. He gave up four between nine and $10,000 for a car.

[OG]

It's a sweet ass Taurus though, bro.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Now if this woman on TikTok had done the opportunity cost, which she still quote, feel good about it. I feel great about it because I gave up half a million bucks so that I could take out a little today. I don't think we weigh opportunity cost, OG if we did, I think we'd make different decisions.

[OG]

Well, I mean, I'm guilty of this. I did this when I was a kid. I did dumb things with money. Some might argue I still do dumb things with money. I just have a lot of margin of safety now. But the future feels so far in the future and reality is so close to today. I think a lot of this has to do with the language that we use. I need to have a car versus I want to have a car. Like there's a thousand ways to solve transportation problems. Buying a brand new car doesn't necessarily have to be the answer, but we convince ourselves that it is. In this example that you gave. I'm sure he convinced himself that. Well, but no, no, the new one, you know, there's less maintenance and there's, it's got a warranty and you know, da da da, da, da da. This is better than spending half the money.

[Doug]

They're safer. You know, actually you just used a word that sparked a thought, og which was transportation. I wonder if we rephrase some of these things and say I need to solve a transportation issue versus I need a new car. It might change how you solve the problem. Because when you think about transportation, it's just a utilitarian value of how do I get from home to work or something like that versus a new car, which is something we see on TV all the time.

[OG]

You know, I wonder, I've thought about this because of the car insurance issue. And I thought about it. With the pending car insurance issue, not knowing how profound the existing car the actual issue is going to be. But I wonder, and I don't know that I'd have to look and see if there's a study that somebody's done on this. What if you just always used Uber Black? You know, it's like, oh my God, it's a hundred dollars. Like, okay, yeah, for every two weeks going to the grocery store. Yeah, that's a lot of money.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You'll be fun about that.

[OG]

Versus a 900 car payment plus gas, plus maintenance plus car insurance. You know, I don't know.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think back to last Wednesday when Ted Dinter Smith was here, though. What I like about that OG is even if it's less expensive, just going through the math as a life problem, what that does is shows you how much money you're actually spending on the car cost versus what you think you're spending when you're comparing the two. And so doing that math is I think, a fun way to see, you know, what, I'm actually spending X amount on my car. And if I add in depreciation on the vehicle wear and tear, if I take my maintenance and spread it out over on a monthly basis, like, what does that add to it?

[OG]

That's why you have to track all this stuff, because you can't eyeball.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, that's a whole language.

[OG]

You can't just go, well, I think my food cost is this. I think my transportation cost is. If you track it, you can literally just run a report and go, I actually spent this in 2020 on transportation. I spent this on my house. I spent this on Amazon. So tracking and then doing something with that, tracking, I think is really the key to all of this.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And that's, I think, where the weekly meeting comes in. Another great piece from Ann Tergeson. We'll link to it on our shownotes page at Stacking Benjamin's. Sadly, of course, you need a Wall Street Journal subscription to read Ann's work, but I think you got the point. Stackers. I think number one, building that emergency fund outside of the 401k, taking money from your 401k, I think that's the leaves of the problem. I think what we covered today is you got to get to the root of it. And it's going to be something completely different than just, I want money out of the 401k. Hey, just briefly here, let's answer a call from a stacker who said, I better call Saul.

[OG]

See?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hi and OG Normally this is where a caller calls in because they have a question for us. Today we actually have a stacker who's going to help us. This is a fantastic contribution. Christine works in higher education, has some advice for families that are staring at college. Oh, gee, this is for you. This is for you. Staring at it already among everybody else.

[OG]

I literally got the bill two days ago.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Here it comes. Hey, Christine.

[Christine]

Hi, Joe, OG and Doug. This is Christine, longtime listener, third time caller. I wanted to call in to talk about the student loan crisis. As someone who's worked at a higher education institution for 13 years, I feel like I have a pretty good perspective on some cost saving measures at the Same time, my husband went to community college and has a really successful business now, so I feel like I can speak to both sides of the coin. For students who are interested in attending college, I would say that's great if it aligns with your career trajectory. The most important part is to try and resist pressure to do something that doesn't align with what you actually want to do. And if you do want to attend college, I'd recommend a few things. First, complete the FAFSA. Twenty to 30% of college students don't actually do the FAFSA and could get aid if they actually completed it. The other thing is to look at the US News and World Report website in their cost section for the universities that you're interested in because you often get more financial aid than you would expect and they provide this kind of information on that site. And then you can also figure out the average amount of debt that students graduate with. For example, at the university I work at, 68% of students graduate with no known debt. So it can be a better deal than you would think if it aligns with your career goal.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Christine, I think our minute and a half limit I'd speak by.

[OG]

Cut you off.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, yeah, Stopped her there and I would have loved to have heard more. So please write me and we can finish up your thought there. But, oh, gee, that's a big one that she mentioned. The fafsa. I remember my parents didn't complete the FAFSA because my dad's like, this is a pain. Like, this is horrible. Do we need to finish this? And then when I did it myself later on when I was paying for college on my own, just taking it one line at a time. Don't look at how long it is. Just look at one line at a time and get it done. And you're so surprised by the huge amount of resources that are available just once you get that completed.

[OG]

And the reality is that it's profoundly simpler now than it was when you guys and I were in college. And it's even easier, Joe, than when you were doing it for your kids.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

My kids, just a few years ago.

[OG]

I don't think that it was but 30 minutes, you know, if fabulous. And I know it was way longer before. You've got to fill that out. I don't know what else she was going to say there, but I think the other piece that I would add to this on the front end of it is don't discount the ability to have a good showing in high school affect your college. Also, there are A couple of universities that Alex applied to that just purely based on his gpa, they had a program of like, if your GPA is between this and this, or your SAT score is between this and this, we will give you X dollars, period. There's no application. I mean, you still did do that, you know, whatever the fafsa. But it wasn't a competition. Right. It wasn't a scholarship you'd write an essay for. It was just like, if your GPA is between 3.7 and 3.8, we're giving you 10 grand.

[Doug]

Miami of Ohio does the same thing.

[OG]

Yeah, and that wasn't super public at the universities that he applied to. It was once we did the tour and we were interested in. And then, you know, you have the meeting, you know, as part of the tour, and they tell you about this stuff. So doing well in freshman, sophomore, and junior year of high school is also super important. And I know a lot of people will also put an emphasis on AP classes or dual credit and that sort of thing. I'm personally a little torn on that. I think, you know, kids are kids for a period of time and then you have to be a freaking adult. Like, is there a rush? I'm a sophomore. I already got my associates when I graduated high school. It's like, good for you. You get to go to work at 20. Trust me, it's not as great as you think. But I understand that from a cost standpoint, it would be helpful. And frankly, especially if you're kind of undecided, if you're not seriously considering knocking out a bunch of the prerequisite classes, the entry level ones, the freshman, sophomore ones at a community college. I don't know why you wouldn't be thinking about that. So much less expensive.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thanks so much for the help, Christine. If you've got a question for us, that's what this segment normally is. Head to stacking benjamin.com voicemail or email me joestackybenjamins.com but we definitely prefer the voicemail. Let's wander out on the back porch, Doug, where we talk about our community. We've got a bunch of stuff.

[Doug]

I got a bone to pick with you, man. I can't wait to get to the back porch. Every time you know this, you're changing everything. Can you just let stuff just sit still for a little bit and just let it be great the way it is? Why do you have to just mess with everything? I heard you made changes to the tax guide. Change the HR guide. Come on, man.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Every month you buy it one time every month we make changes to our guides. And if you just messing with it, if, if you get our guides, you go blind.

[Doug]

Stop touching it. If you, if you get, if you.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Get our guides, you may have missed the email. So which is why we're going to go over it here. If you don't get our guides, you might want to know this as well. Speaking of college, Christine, our college guide is live. We're super proud of it. Debany, who is in college here locally at Texas A and M Texarkana, was helping us flip through it going, this is amazing. She loves it. But again, every month we're going to continue to make this guide better. But our tax guide, what do we put in there? A lot of the tax law changes that are coming we've added to the guide this month we put in the AMT changes, the senior tax deduction, the auto deduction, the SALT deductions we put in there. In the HR guide, we added mental health benefits. A lot of companies adding mental health benefits for workers lately. So we added a whole section on how to use your mental health benefits. If you have those available, how they work.

[Doug]

I haven't had a chance to read those yet. Do you say in there you're good enough, you're smart enough and gosh darn it, people like you? Is that what the change you made in that mental health?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We got a flow, a flowchart in there. We do have a flowchart, but the flowchart should have went Are you smart enough? Yes. Darn it. Do people like you? Yes it does. It does not.

[Doug]

Do we do good hugs?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We do have a flowchart in there about how to use it. Buy them once we update them every month. Stacky benjamin.com guides Joe, a second ago.

[Doug]

You mentioned salt deductions when you were talking about the tax guide. We got a great note from Allegra on Instagram who asked if we talked about the new salt changes in our tax guides in episode was it 1714? And she was wondering how that affects her. Oh gee.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. We talked about some of the lesser known things in there, but we didn't talk about salt. State and local tax OG the state and local tax deduction has been expanded. There used to be a cap at 10,000. It's been expanded to 40,000. It truly is. For people making over six figure. If you're making over six figures and you're in a high state tax area, I'm looking at you, California, Connecticut and a couple others. These could significantly affect you because there's not the big cap. And it might make sense to itemize now, but definitely for more people, you're going to want to start looking at itemize more carefully again.

[OG]

Yeah. The only thing that I would add to that, Joe, that's a really good summary is that there is also there's an income cap on the salt cap. There's a phase out and that's a really quick one. I think it's five to 600, the.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

New law made even quicker.

[OG]

Yeah, well, it's great if you're kind of mid six figures. Once you get above six figures, like mid six figures, it goes away again and no suit for you. As they say in the irs, it will make a lot of sense this year to start your taxes early, start.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Your tax prep early. But to answer you directly, Allegra, if you live in a high state or local tax area, the thing that you do with this is starting this next year when you're doing your taxes, you're going to want to pay more attention to itemize. Again, a lot of people just went to sleep on itemizing. There's a whole host of our listeners now who are going to want to do the math between itemizing and taking the standard deduction. But thanks a ton for that question. And Doug, I think that's does it for the back porch today, but it doesn't do it for your contribution because this is a point of the show where Doug takes it from here. Coming up on Wednesday, we have another big mentor. We're talking negotiation with Paula Pant on Wednesday. So stay tuned for that. But we've got your to do list, your takeaways from today, stackers. Doug, what are our top three?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, first take some advice from Len Penzo. There's something I've never said before at the grocery.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All these years.

[Doug]

No. Had to be a first. At the grocery store. You can save up to 40% by buying the store brand. Does anyone else know about this? Second, take some advice from Stacker Christine. If you're applying for college, complete the FAFSA. Don't be among the 20 to 30% she mentioned who don't even apply for aid. You could receive more, more than you think. But the big lesson, don't complain to Joe's mom about hot dog buns. That woman will begin a joke about hot dogs and buns that well, you straight up don't want to hear. I promise you don't want to hear it. Thanks to the Len Penzo for joining us again today with this year's sandwich survey. Find the results in writing at Len's site, lenpenzo.com we'll also share link link. We'll share link. We give good link. We'll also share a link to that and our Wall Street Journal headline piece, the link to our guides and [e-mail] this show is the property of SP Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025, and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighbors, neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh, yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Sam.

[OG]

How is Park City PC as the cool kids call it?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is that what they call it, PC these days?

[OG]

I don't know.

[Doug]

No, I don't know. They don't.

[OG]

They have. They have the. I mean, that's what they have written on the mountain, you know, like it just says PC.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Sure, it's spray paint.

[OG]

It's rocks or something. I don't know.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think kids went up there on a Tuesday night, got crazy.

[OG]

Yeah, you know what would be awesome? Come up with an abbreviation.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The problem is I can't spell Park City. Let's just do PC.

[OG]

That's where they did the Olympics in 2002. For the people that are young enough not to know that, but it's a huge ski town. But in the summer, obviously there's no skiing, but it's where the. They do a lot of Olympic training. And so there's. As you're coming off of the highway from Salt Lake City into Park City, on the right hand side is where the mountain is and you see a bunch of Olympic stuff, including where they practice. And then you can see the ski jump. I think this is where the ski jump thing actually was. It's just there's not snow there, so it's kind of, it's all green and you know, they have like, like turf.

[Doug]

Please describe more for us what the earth is like without snow.

[OG]

No, no, no. I mean like it's like artificial turf.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, like Doug's lawn. Like Doug's Lawn.

[OG]

What I'm saying is, I don't know if this is the actual place where they do the ski jump or this is just where they practice the ski jump, but it makes sense that it would be the actual place. It's very prominently displayed, but you can go up there and see the training facility and that sort of thing. But what's neat, I didn't know this was the case. They're practicing, and so they practice by skiing down this thing and doing flips off the ramp into a pool.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, wow.

[OG]

So, you know, these guys are wearing.

[Doug]

Swim shorts and a weighted vest.

[OG]

And a vest? Yeah, not a weighted vest. A floaty vest. And they're like. And just, you know, you're like, oh, that dude's going splash. And everybody's like, wow. And then, you know, he climbs his ass up the ladder and does it again over and over and over again. So that was kind of. That was kind of fun to see. But in that whole village area, you could do. They had zip lining, they had tubing, a little mountain coaster thing, like a bobsled type of experience.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Bobsled, yeah.

[OG]

The tubing was probably the most intense because in the ski jump, it appears, and I'm not a ski jump expert, but it appears as though they have two different variations of ski jump. They have the scary one and then the less scary one.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, and the super, super scary one.

[OG]

Yes. There are two options. The death defying one, you can't go to, but the scary one, you can tube down. They, like, put your ass in a tube and they shove you off. You're like, okay, this is an. Oh, my God. This straight vertical. Down you go.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Remember when we had Olympian Taylor Fleming on a Winter Olympian, and he did the ski jump? I wonder if he's listening today and listening to your description of ski jump. Just rolling. This is the way I describe it to everybody.

[OG]

I'm telling you. Like, when you see it, you're like, that is. I could do that. And then you get up there and you look down, you go, nah, I shouldn't be here.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So, Taylor, which event are you in? I'm in the super scary one.

[OG]

The super scary one where I go.

[Doug]

Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, Splash.

[OG]

Yes. Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, splash. It does appear that Salt Lake City has the Olympics again in 2032 maybe or something, because they have all the signs up for it. Yeah, 20, 34, 32, something.

[Doug]

I am absolutely in favor of the IOC picking, like, four different cities around the world, some limited number of cities and just rotating between those.

[OG]

Just having a high probability of quality snow or quality weather for that. Because. Because wasn't it a couple of years ago where they had the Winter Olympics and it was like, well, it's just not a lot of snow that's happened.

[Doug]

For the last several Olympics. It happened in Sochi, it happened in Beijing, it happened in Vancouver. In Vancouver, where they were stockpiling snow even back then. I mean, they're notorious. You see all these great pictures of that part of the world with snow, but they're notorious for having sketchy winters. So, yeah, I mean, pick a few spots and we don't need to get into the whole climate change thing, but maybe you do a winter and a summer in each continent and then just rotate between those.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

If only Doug ran the Olympics.

[Doug]

It's just so simple.

[OG]

Well, we were actually talking about that with my boys too, because, you know, we were talking about like the economic impact of how huge it is, all the build up to it, and then how everything goes in disarray after it. Because it's like, well, we don't actually need 77,000 hotels. We need 7,000 hotels. We don't need this big stadium anymore. Because that was.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What was fantastic was the engineering fee of Paris. How almost all of that was taken down. 90% of that stuff.

[OG]

Oh, yeah, okay.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Did not stay up.

[Doug]

But they built that for disassembly.

[Len Penzo]

They did.

[Doug]

They designed for disassembly, which is a whole engineering process.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Designed it specifically, which I thought was fantastic.

[Doug]

That part's great. That's a recent thing, but you could go as recently as like the Rio Olympics and look at some of those soccer stadiums. Sorry, football. They were growing weeds inside of a year.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Doug]

After they were done using them.

[OG]

Anyways, it's a really cool town. Weather was freaking awesome coming out of Dallas, where it's 100 and something.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Not as great as here.

[OG]

In the morning it was 50, and the afternoon it was in the upper 80s, which is really cool. So did that. We went whitewater rafting.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, wow.

[OG]

I didn't say white water rafting. We went rafting.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. Yellow water rafting.

[OG]

We took the family version and about 20 minutes into the family version, we were like, yeah, we should have taken the teenage version. This is cool and all, but maybe just a little more something. So that was neat, seeing this topography of the different areas up there. And then. And the boys and I went, not an atv. It's basically like a four seater deal. And you drive up the mountain and it's guided cool to go through. I'll show you a picture of what.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We did there, but wow. OG did all that cool stuff. I went to see how to train your dragon, the live action movie.

[Len Penzo]

Oh.

[OG]

And we watched as a family, Happy Gilmore one and two.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

How is two? Oh, my God.

[Doug]

Wait a minute. Are you kidding me? I love that movie.

[OG]

I loved it.

[Doug]

Happy Gilmore 2, you loved it was.

[OG]

Every bit as stupid as you would expect it.

[Doug]

You're an idiot. Did you watch? I did watch it, and it was freaking horrible.

[OG]

Oh, it was not. It's not gonna so bad. It's not gonna win any awards, Doug.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Isn't that the point?

[OG]

Weren't there, like, 120 cameos? It was so fun to, like, find out, like, oh, that's cameo. Oh, that's a cameo.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, I know who that is. That's a.

[Doug]

There were so many of them and all. It got to the point where you just had to realize what? Well, I can tell that's not an actor, so that's somebody famous. You know, famous golfer or somebody. But I can't recognize who it is. I didn't chuckle a genuine even like, until probably 40 minutes in when they were at the Gold Jacket dinner. As he was walking into the Gold Jacket dinner and talking to the guy who's supposed to be the league, you know, runs the. The tour. That's the first time that I laughed. Prior to that, I was just watching it for the cameo.

[OG]

Such a stick in the mud.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow.

[Doug]

And I mean, and with Happy Gilmore 1, I genuinely laughed a lot.

[OG]

My. My daughter was laughing at the variety of flasks. You didn't. You didn't find that funny at all.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Because, Doug, she collects flasks.

[Doug]

Yeah, right. That's. I think we just got a good window into the house. Dad, you could learn some things from him.

[OG]

He's just like you.

[Doug]

You could do it in the tv.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Look where he's hiding that one.

[Doug]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Yeah.

[OG]

You suck, Doug, you jackass.