Are Money Gurus Feeding Us Lies? (SB1701)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show - "Are Money Gurus Feeding Us Lies?" (SB1701)

Episode Information:

• Title: Are Money Gurus Feeding Us Lies? (SB1701)
• Release Date: June 27, 2025
• Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy and OG
• Platform: StackingBenjamins.com | Cumulus Podcast Network

Overview: In this insightful episode of The Stacking Benjamins Show, hosts Joe Saul-Sehy and OG delve into a critical analysis of the advice dispensed by financial gurus. Drawing inspiration from Christine Lucan's piece titled "Four Lies Money Gurus Tell," the panel dissects and debates each purported lie, offering listeners a nuanced perspective on personal finance strategies. The episode is enriched with expert opinions from special guests Paula Pant, Jesse Kramer, and Doc G (Jordan Grumman), alongside engaging interactions and a lighthearted trivia segment.

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage (00:00 - 02:00)

The episode begins with the customary sponsor messages before transitioning to the hosts' warm banter. Doug, introduced humorously as Joe's mom's neighbor, sets a playful tone by referencing the classic saying, "There are liars, damned liars, and statistics," gearing up for the main discussion on financial misinformation.

Notable Quotes:

• Doug (00:27): "Today we're talking about lies that financial gurus tell us. What are they? How do we see through the lies?"

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2. Discussing Lie #1: "You Need a Budget to Make Yourself Behave with Money" (09:44 - 18:31)

Main Discussion: The panel addresses the first claim that budgeting is essential for financial discipline. Paula Pant strongly disagrees, advocating for an "anti-budget" approach where savings are prioritized automatically, allowing for free-spending thereafter. Jesse Kramer offers a middle ground, suggesting that while rigid budgeting may not suit everyone, some form of financial tracking and intentionality is beneficial.

Notable Quotes:

• Paula Pant (09:44): "I am in total agreement. Total agreement. ... But when the advice which you so often hear is phrased as everybody must need a budget, no, not everybody needs one."

• Joe Saul-Sehy (10:26): "I couldn't disagree with you more, Paula."

• Jesse Kramer (10:45): "To some extent you're doing something intentional to divert money, to measure your money in some way and then react accordingly based on what you're measuring."

• Doc G (Jordan Grumman) (12:37): "It's not about prosperity. I don't think there's anything wrong with budgeting. I don't think it's a negative thing."

Insights: While acknowledging the effectiveness of budgeting for certain individuals, the panel emphasizes the importance of adaptable financial strategies tailored to personal preferences and lifestyles.

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3. Discussing Lie #2: "Follow This Exact Formula and Get These Results" (19:49 - 25:16)

Main Discussion: The conversation shifts to the second lie, challenging the notion that there exists a one-size-fits-all financial formula. Doc G criticizes gurus who sell rigid plans, arguing that personalized approaches are crucial given the diversity in individual financial situations. Paula Pant reinforces this by highlighting the danger of absolute rules, suggesting that peeling back the layers of financial advice to understand underlying principles fosters better decision-making.

Notable Quotes:

• Doc G (19:49): "Anyone who's coming at you saying this is 100% the way to do it, and I'm the only one who can tell you how to do it, they're selling you something."

• Paula Pant (21:07): "If the statement is made as an absolute... it's a major red flag."

• Jesse Kramer (21:33): "It's still fun conversation... great discussion starter."

Insights: The panel advocates for critical thinking and flexibility in financial planning, warning against the pitfalls of adhering strictly to prescribed formulas without considering personal circumstances.

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4. Discussing Lie #3: "Exercise Your Willpower to Save Money and Get Out of Debt" (38:49 - 43:54)

Main Discussion: The third lie examines the emphasis on willpower as the primary tool for financial management. Jesse Kramer expresses skepticism, noting that while willpower plays a role, establishing emotional and habitual systems can be more effective. Paula Pant introduces the "waterfall" model, prioritizing automation and habits before relying on willpower, thereby creating a sustainable financial framework.

Notable Quotes:

• Jesse Kramer (38:49): "I just see the truth in opposition to this lie is to utilize the power of emotion and habit to easily save money."

• Paula Pant (39:46): "Automate anything you can, and then if you can't automate something, try to form a habit or a system around it. ... nothing moves up a waterfall."

• Joe Saul-Sehy (40:54): "It wasn't until I developed systems... I never had any money left to spend; it was way better."

Insights: The discussion underscores the importance of structured financial systems over sheer willpower, suggesting that automation and habit formation are more reliable for long-term financial health.

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5. Discussing Lie #4: "Cut Up Your Credit Cards to Keep from Overspending" (44:51 - 50:12)

Main Discussion: Addressing the final lie, the panel debates the effectiveness of eliminating credit cards as a strategy to curb overspending. Paula Pant recommends alternative measures to create friction around credit usage, such as physically storing cards in challenging places. Jesse Kramer critiques the credit card points system, highlighting its inherent flaws and the reliance on debt from others to fund rewards. Doc G offers a balanced view, suggesting that while cutting up all credit cards may be excessive for some, maintaining limited and responsibly managed credit can be beneficial.

Notable Quotes:

• Paula Pant (45:27): "If a person has a difficult time with managing their spending, then getting rid of credit cards, or at a minimum, sticking them in a jar of peanut butter, ... creates friction."

• Jesse Kramer (46:27): "The only reason why some of us are able to benefit from the credit card points game is because there are other people on the other side who are losing the credit card game terribly."

• Doc G (46:35): "If having credit cards around is something that's going to tempt you to no end and you're going to spend more, then you got to get rid of them."

Insights: The conversation reveals the complexity surrounding credit card usage, advocating for personalized approaches that consider an individual's self-control and financial habits rather than blanket solutions.

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6. Trivia Break: LaserDisc Anniversary (26:00 - 37:39)

Midway through the episode, the hosts engage listeners with a fun trivia segment celebrating the 50th anniversary of the movie Jaws and its association with the LaserDisc format. The panel attempts to answer the question: "What year did the last LaserDisc hit the North American market?" Despite humorous guesses ranging from 1990 to 2008, Doc G correctly identifies the year as 2000, receiving playful ribbing from his co-hosts.

Notable Quotes:

• Doug (26:16): "What was the last year a laserdisc was released in the USA?"

• Doc G (34:44): "I don't know. I was feeling unconfident and then I was looking at Doug's face and he seems kind of bummed. So maybe I'm closer than I thought."

• Joe Saul-Sehy (38:00): "By the way, it's 2000 for the US and in Asia, where there was more penetration in the market, it was 2001."

Insights: The trivia segment adds a layer of engagement and entertainment, showcasing the hosts' camaraderie and sense of humor.

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7. Conclusion and Takeaways (55:12 - End)

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the discussions, emphasizing the importance of personalized financial strategies over rigid adherence to guru-prescribed methods. They encourage listeners to continue exploring diverse financial advice and implementing what resonates with their unique situations.

Notable Quotes:

• Doug (56:25): "First, take some advice from our Sith Lord, Jesse. Don't fall victim to the laws of absolute absolutes."

• Paula Pant (50:12): "Telling you lies is a strong word. Number one, the word lie implies intent. ... these are statements that ought to be presented in a more nuanced manner."

• Jesse Kramer (51:33): "It's still fun conversation... great discussion starter."

Final Thoughts: The panel reinforces the episode's central theme: critical evaluation of financial advice is essential. By dissecting the so-called lies of money gurus, they empower listeners to adopt financial practices that align with their personal values and circumstances.

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Additional Information:

• Guest Promotions:
  • Paula Pant: Hosts Afford Anything podcast, focusing on personal freedom and financial independence.
  • Doc G (Jordan Grumman): Hosts Earn and Invest podcast, featuring in-depth interviews with financial experts.
  • Jesse Kramer: Hosts Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast, offering strategies for sustainable wealth accumulation.

Listeners are encouraged to explore these podcasts for further insights into personal finance management.

Disclaimer: The advice and discussions in this episode are for informational purposes only and should not replace professional financial consultation.

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Connect with the Hosts:

• Website: StackingBenjamins.com
• YouTube: Engage with live audiences and additional content.
• Social Media: Follow for updates and financial tips across various platforms.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

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[Paula Pant]

So you'll pick me up tonight at 7:45 Jo?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, no, I got a few things.

[Jesse Kramer]

To take care of first, but why.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Don'T we make it quarter to eight?

[Paula Pant]

Stop it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Okay, 7:45.

[Doug]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And what does mom say? The there are liars and damned liars and then there's statistics. I don't know about the third part of that, but today we're talking about lies that financial gurus tell us. What are they? How do we see through the lies? We'll debate that on our Friday panel today. Plus, halfway through what's sure to be the best conversation you've heard since Wednesday, we'll pause briefly to see who's this week's champ in our year long money trivia competition. And now a guy who believes your financial future is brighter than your phone screen. At 2am it's Joe Salsie High.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And you know, it's funny Doug, I know how bright the phone screen is at 2am because I just got home from Greece and they are eight hours ahead. So it's like I am wide awake at 2am like hello.

[Doug]

It's like having a hangover. You can't sleep. You're like damn, I'm gonna look at my phone. And even when you have the setting where it turns the brightness down a little bit, it's still just glaring.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What was that little Jerry Seinfeld piece where he's like you're up late at night and the only thing that's still awake is your thumb. Is your flipping channels on the tv.

[Doug]

That's right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The rest of your body's asleep, but we're not putting you sleep on this. And we don't want you to sleep, by the way, on any of the topics we talk about today because we're going to talk about financial gurus and one blogger who talks about the lies, lie, li. Lies that financial gurus tell. So we have a packed house of phenomenal guests today. Let's meet our panel. Let's start with a woman who joins us from the great state of New York. Paula Pant is here. How are you?

[Paula Pant]

I am great. And you know what I think lie number one is that these guys have been traveling because show as you, as you just admitted to you, you were in beautiful, beautiful Greece.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But if you remember, I told that to the YouTube audience, not the podcast audience. Oh. Because everybody's like, what are you talking about? Ah.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, oh, oh. This has been selectively selective. Lies ninja.

[Doug]

Paula. Now we gotta start over.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We'll fix it in post. So what's going on, Paula? What did you do while I was gone for a whopping 18 days?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, man. I am trying to make it through the heat wave in New York. It's, I think about 100 degrees today. I've got my thermostat set literally to 80 degrees. And the air conditioner is chugging like it's running non stop just to try to cool the apartment to 80.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I head to Detroit tomorrow. It's like 93 there. Doug, you're, you're, I think in Detroit right now, aren't you?

[Doug]

I am. I'm just outside of Detroit yesterday, actually, the thermometer on my back Porch got to 101. It's pretty rough. It's been pretty rough here, but we're, we're getting through it. Took the dogs to the river today. Let them get dunked a little bit.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And welcome to stacking Benjamin's weather on the eights.

[Doug]

Yeah, weather and traffic and a guy.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Who also has a heat wave in Rochester, New York, because I think it's probably, what was it, 16, 17, 18, 20 degrees there, Jesse? Like super hot.

[Jesse Kramer]

20 degrees Celsius right now. It's about 70 degrees Fahrenheit. The snowbanks are shrinking for now. They might return soon. No, it's been, it's been really where it's been in the 90s for the last two or three days. And it's going to break Tomorrow we're going to get down into the 80s Fahrenheit. Tomorrow no longer in Celsius. That would be too hot. But yeah, this has been chemistry on the nines.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And the guy who is the 10 on this podcast from Chicago, Illinois, Doc G, aka Jordan Grumman joins us. How are you, man?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I'm doing well. I'm just staying cool here in our nice new air conditioning. We just mostly finished like a year long remodel and the air conditioner is actually working so we're good.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And it's usually cool there on the lake in Chicago, but not today, I.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Would imagine it is in the summer. It's really nice in the winter or as it's like springtime, everyone's getting to the 70s and 80s and we're still in the 60s. So, you know, it is what it is, man.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, let's tell everybody what the mission is here today. This blogger, Christine Lucan, wrote a piece called Four Lies Money Gurus tell you are these lies and our money gurus spouting these all the time. We're going to talk about these lies. We're going to dig into all four of them that Christine talks about. I think we got a lot of meat here for the next hour, so sit back and relax. Before we get to this piece, we've got some sponsors that make sure we can keep on keeping on. You don't pay a penny for any of the goodness that Jesse, Doc G and Paula bring to the show. So we're going to hear from them and Doug, we're going to hear from them. And then let's talk about four Lies Money gurus tell you. This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal can help you find and finance the right vehicle with ease. With Navy Federal's car buying service, powered by Truecar, you can find the vehicle that's right for you as you search through inventory, compare models and you could get an amazing rate when you finance with Navy federal. Visit navy federal.org truecar to learn more. Navy Federal Credit Union, Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Credit and collateral subject to approval. Well, as you know, stackers, we talk a lot about finding careers and finding work that you love. I think that's the basis of a great time on this earth. To me, it's way, way, way better than just figuring out how can I just check out and do nothing. And science actually backs that. So if you're feeling stuck in your career and worried that your team can tell, well, jumpstart your growth with IDO you. Their online courses draw from design and innovative company IDO's award winning methods and you can dive in whenever you're ready. There's never a bad time to transform your professional life. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by all that AI hype that we've talked about here on the show, you know it's important, but you're struggling with how to use it in your day to day work. Well, IDO Use AI and design thinking programs are designed for leaders like you. People want to stay ahead but keep problem solving human centered. It's practical, it's hands on and it's built for real world impact. In fact, I'm beginning an IDO U AI course as we speak. IDOU has a whole suite of AI and design thinking programs that show you how to combine AI tools with human centered design to boost creativity, speed up insights and solve problems in new ways. And remember Stackers. IDEO is focused on design and how people actually learn. So IDO use courses are designed to seamlessly transition from theory to practice, ensuring that you can apply those new skills right away and spark immediate progress. Classes start soon, so enroll today. For a limited time, IDO U is offering stackers 15% off site wide. 15% off? Go to IDO u.com/sb that's IDO u.comsb for 15% off. IDOU.comsb There are four here, so I thought a great format is we'll talk about two, then we'll break for our year long trivia competition guys, and then we'll cover the last two. This is the intro to the piece from Christine lukin. It'[e-mail] She's a financial dignity coach. You might be avoiding your financial issues because of the lies money gurus tell you. Christine writes, maybe you think that rescuing your financial dignity is going to be the equivalent of crawling across broken glass rather than the amazing adventure that it is. Here are the four lies money gurus tell you and the real truth about rescuing your financial dignity once and for all. Paula, let's start with you here on lie number one. You need a budget to make yourself behave with money. She says that is a lie. Do you agree or disagree?

[Paula Pant]

I am in total agreement. Total agreement. Now I will say do what works for you. If the advice is a budget can work for some people, sure, I would agree with that. But when the advice which you so often hear is phrased as everybody must need a budget, no, not everybody needs one. And in fact I'm A big proponent of what I call the anti budget, which is you pull your savings off the top first. And in this context, savings is anything that improves your net worth. It could be extra payments towards the debt above and beyond the minimum. It could be retirement contributions. It could be literal cash in a savings account. But any net worth improvement, you pull it off the top first and then you spend freely with whatever.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I couldn't disagree with you more, Paula. I agree with everything that you said, except when somebody is trying to crawl out as she writes and get some financial dignity. I'm thinking about somebody just starting out. I don't know. Jesse, do you agree that everybody, to crawl out of the gutter needs a budget? Crawl out of the gutter. Oh my God.

[Jesse Kramer]

You need a budget to make yourself behave with money. That's the way the lie is phrased. You need a budget to make yourself behave with money. Yeah, I suppose that's a lie. But again, just directionally, if this is black and white, I think most people are better off in some form or fashion measuring their money. You can call it budgeting, you can call it anti budgeting. To some extent you're doing something intentional to divert money, to measure your money in some way and then react accordingly based on what you're measuring. So I'm not sure if I, you know, she alludes in this explanation, the, the author alludes that she was doing financial coaching at a church. Oh, maybe she says this in line number two. She was doing financial coaching at a church based on a course from a well known money guru. I have a feeling I know who that money guru was. And I know that money guru does espouse. Budget, budget, budget, budget. I think there is a lot of benefit to be had from budgeting. One side note though, I don't know if I'm the only one. When I read this article, I'm given an ad that looks to be a permanent ad. It's for reprogramming your unconscious mind with hypnosis. And so again, if we're talking about gurus, to me, hypnosis, you know, William Bernstein says people say guru because charlatan is too hard to spell. So anyway, I'm a little on edge right now when it comes to these lies, but the budgeting one.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wait a minute. Are you saying that hypnosis won't help you reprogram your unconscious mind for financial abundance?

[Jesse Kramer]

That. I have questions, Joe. I'm just here to ask questions.

[Paula Pant]

You are getting very rich.

[Jesse Kramer]

Exactly.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Exact.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm not sure that's how hypnosis works, but it looks good in the movies. Doc G, are you on board? So far we've got. Paula says, yeah, I think that's a lie. Jesse's like, yeah, kind of qualified to lie. Where do you come down?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I agree. You don't have to have a budget. In fact, for some people, not having a budget works really well. You know, what I don't really like actually is some of the reasoning she goes into kind of the more prosperity view as of, you know, if we're thinking budget, all of a sudden it feels scarcity. But then if we do it outside of a budget, maybe we're thinking more prosperity wise. I think it comes down to simplicity. I think some people like me are bad at budgets because I don't like complexity. And so I don't want to keep track of three or four or five or six different categories. For me, it's just easier to say, I'm going to spend this many thousands of dollars this month, put it in a bank account, and that's how I know how much money I have to spend and I'm going to save this much and it gets, you know, whooshed off into my investing account and I don't even see it. So for me, it's more of a simplicity. It's not about prosperity. I don't think there's anything wrong with budgeting. I don't think it's a negative thing. I don't think it's a scarcity thing. I just think when it comes to complexity versus simplicity, I always choose simplicity. And some people are going to do better with that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I know. Here's where I come down on this. Doug, you worked in corporate America. Did you ever do that thing that productivity experts would have you do? They'd have everybody in your department write down what you did, like in 15 minute increments to see, like, where time might be bleeding through.

[Doug]

Yep.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Did you guys do that? Yeah.

[Doug]

Absolutely.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Did you find that to be effective?

[Doug]

I hated every second of doing it and I did find it effective.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Me too.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Wow.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

100%.

[Doug]

Kicked and screamed, argued with it. I would just be the biggest pain in the ass in the room. I know that's difficult to believe. Bear with me. But then I finally just got on board and look back on it and shoot.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Every time my boss at American Express brought one of those to me, I'm like, hell, no, no, no, no. And every time I was like, huh? That is very insightful. That was very insightful. I think when we first start out, Paula, I think having A budget just for a little while so that you apply some science to this, so that you can see where the cracks are. I agree with everything you said, but I think that's for somebody who already kind of knows where the holes are. But my problem was when I was bad with money, I just didn't understand how freaking big the leaks were. I thought when I just use my ATM card, like, oh, this is just a one time thing. Then when I started keeping track, I found out the one time thing was like a 25 time thing.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah. I think we're both saying the same thing. Because I think of budgeting as something similar to like calorie counting, which is to do that long term is very, very difficult. I mean, to use measuring cups, you know, to, to weigh and measure. To use like a little kitchen scale and measuring cups to weigh and measure every single gram of food that you eat. You can do it for a couple of days, you can do it for even a couple of weeks. But it's incredibly difficult unless you're a professional to do that year in and year out. Jesse's holding a banana, but Jesse, have you weighed that banana?

[Jesse Kramer]

That's why I was holding it up here. It's. I didn't, but maybe I should.

[Doug]

I can't tell. I feel like I want to disagree with you guys, but I can't really tell where you're landing and I can't really tell. It's. It's stated so succinctly by the author. You need a budget to make yourself behave with money. I read that and I hear an. An implication that you're not already good with money. And I think you guys are all so ingrained in personal finance that you forget the time. Except Joe. Joe still right on the edge of being good with money and not so good money.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We all have a dream.

[Doug]

I don't think you remember when you guys really sucked with money. You need major behavior behavioral changes. And I think to do that, it probably takes a good year or more. Not a couple of weeks or a couple of months. I think it probably takes a year or more. Really trying to constrain yourself with something that looks like a budget before then you can do Paula's famous anti budget, which is how I live right now, Paula, like I'm with you. I do the same thing. I kind of check in on it once a year, make sure I'm allocating proper things to investments and savings, and then I just spend whatever the hell I want to spend.

[Paula Pant]

Right.

[Doug]

Because I've automated all the rest of it. But when that wasn't the case, when I was just kind of getting smart with my money, I had to force myself to use a budget. So I. I don't think it's a lie the way the author has stated it. I think you do need to have that to change your behavior. Hot take.

[Jesse Kramer]

Two thoughts for you, Doug. I mean, the curse of knowledge is what you kind of just described there, which is like, once someone knows things, like Doc G might be familiar with this, with med school stuff is like, once you know something and you're like an expert on it, you forget what it was like to no longer to not be an expert. And like, that's a well documented thing. The curse of knowledge, then the second one is only a sith deals in absolutes. Right. But it's like to some extent, you know this lie.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Exactly.

[Jesse Kramer]

Didn't we have a Star wars trivia recently?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This is super.

[Jesse Kramer]

This lie is an absolute. You need a budget to make yourself behave with money. Thinking back to this guru, who this author is probably referring to, who deals in a lot of absolutes, in your defense, Doug, a lot of that guru's audience needs absolutes to really provide these guardrails for them to get out of the trouble that they've. The financial trouble that they found themselves in. So there might be some. Some efficacy there.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think that brings up something big, Jesse, too, which is, you know, when these people are talking to large audiences, you know, you look at the size of Dave Ramsey's audience, Susie Orman's audience, Jim Cramer's audience, they'll speak in much more black and white terms because they have to, because they're talking to these huge numbers of people where I feel like on our shows we're able to kind of get into the gray area a little more. I mean, I actually enjoy being more in the gray area. Like, it's not an absolute all the time. But I do think that any money guru telling you when you first start off to get a budget, that's not bad advice. And the implication, the title to me, Jordan, is that, you know, she's saying lies. I think it's a good thing to tell somebody who's not good with money, why don't you do a budget for a while?

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I mean, again, I think we can always find someone who doesn't fit in what the rest of us look like. But I agree. I think, again, you don't have to have a budget, but it's not a bad place to start.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Let's say hello to the Stackers hanging out with us on YouTube as we make this show. We're here a day early. We were on Tuesday, and we still had some cool people show up. Carlos here from North Carolina. Heavy is here from Minnesota. In fact, Minnesota's here too. I met Mike is here from St. Paul. So we've got Minnesota in the house. Heavy says it was 110 degrees heat index in Minnesota.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

But in Minnesota, they can take everything. Minnesota goes coldest to the cold and hottest of the hot, and they just smile.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And Heavy. Also, Jesse echoes Doug saying, you're a nerd.

[Jesse Kramer]

That's coming from Heavy.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Who?

[Jesse Kramer]

We know who Heavy is. I mean, that's quite the insult. Mr. Video Games Playing in the background. I see you, Chris.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Which is why. Why we love you more, Jesse. Exactly. Love the street cred. Let's go to lie number two on this list. You know what, Doc, we'll stick with you here. Lie number two, follow this exact formula and get these results. She's saying gurus out there peddling exact formulas.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Oh, they are. And the reason why is because they have that formula all formulated for you, and for just 1999, you can buy it from them. So I think this is very consumer oriented. I think anyone who's coming at you saying this is 100% the way to do it, and I'm the only one who can tell you how to do it, and this is exactly how you do it, they're selling you something. And we all know that people's lives are different. Their budgets are different, their income is different, their needs and spend is different. So it's really hard to encapsulate everyone in one specific plan. It's just too regimented.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm gonna assume, Paul, that you agree. I can't see you disagreeing with that, with that statement. So let me ask you the next thing, which is how do you know, though? Because when somebody has either a podcast or a YouTube video or a book and they're telling you this is how you get more successful, like I feel like when I look at lie number two, I then go read Ramit Sadie's book, which I think is really good, or Scott Trench's book, or Aaron Lowry's book, or some of the, you know, great Joe Salsihai's book, you can go, doc G's book. You can go and look at these books and you can go, oh, I was told that they're lying to me. What's your kind of rubric to know that some guru's formula is sending me down the right path versus the wrong one.

[Paula Pant]

You know, I think I would have to echo what Jesse said about only a sith deals in absolutes, even though I don't know what a sith is, but I assume it's something bad. But I think that's the rubric, because if the statement is made as an absolute, and particularly if the warning is, like, if you don't follow this, then, like, there will be hell to pay. It will be, you know, you. You can't do X or Y or Z or, you know, it's. I think that when that is presented as follow me or there will be consequences otherwise. Oh, you know, I think that's sort of the. The. That's the major red flag.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You're focused on the my way or the highway aspect of that.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, whereas I think, and I like what they say in this article, where if advice is presented by taking. Peeling back the onion and taking a deeper look at the why and the motivation that's underpinning some of the behaviors, then it's likely to be more effective.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jess, you work at a financial planning office. How do you get people to kind of peel back that onion so you know where to start?

[Jesse Kramer]

Peel back the onion. So I know where to start. I mean, I suppose having them just share all their financial details, income expenses and assets and debts and goals and timelines and blah, blah, blah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Social Security numbers, mother's maiden name.

[Jesse Kramer]

Exactly right. Exactly right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What elementary school you went to, all.

[Jesse Kramer]

The security passwords, second cat's first name, all that kind of stuff. But, I mean, I don't know, going back to what doc she was saying, it's like there's the lie itself as it's presented, and then there's the explanation of this lie. And when I think of some of the quote, unquote, exact formulas out there, especially some that are espoused by some gurus, I think of things like the order of operations or these proper ways to kind of save money or maybe in retirement, the general rules of thumb about how to withdraw money and when to take Social Security or like, some of those questions. And I'm like, well, it's okay to have these general frameworks, these general rules of thumb with some explanation behind them to act as guideposts so people can kind of understand directionally what they ought to be doing. I don't see that as a problem, per se. I mean, granted, I. To your point, though, are there some true gurus out there, some actual charlatans who are espousing a specific formula for 49.99 and promising the world with. I'm sure there are, but there are other parts of personal finance and financial planning that are very much like, hey, this is well trodden ground and we know the best way to approach this problem. Here's the framework, here are the steps you ought to take. And I think it's kind of good that we've gotten this far in personal finance.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I want to focus on what you said at the very beginning. I liked all of it, but I really want to focus on what you said at first, Jesse, because I think that's really important. I think a good advisor is somebody who asks you first what problem you're trying to solve. A bad financial advisor tells you, I have a solution to all your problems for 1999, Jordan's thing. And Roger Whitney said this on the show several weeks ago now, he said, if an advisor leads with product, you need to run. Right? If they lead with process. To your point, Jesse, here's the process. We use this as a framework. Here's the why, and here's why we might violate that for you because of the fact that you're different. I think that's a much, much, much better way to handle it. Jordan, any more thoughts on line number two here?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I think something I hear you, Joe, say all the time is you've got to kind of know the rules when to know to break them. So the only positive thing I can say on the other side of this is what I think Jesse was pointing to is I think a lot of these rules and these stepped plans are really good for us to understand, and then we can decide whether they really fit our situation or not. So it's that having a method is bad. And so to give a little credit to some of these quote unquote gurus, I mean, finding simple ways to help people organize their thoughts and plan for the future is a good thing. And I think we should pay attention to that. But then our big question should be, does that fit us? Does it fit our situation? And when does this not work for us? And then know when to break that rule.

[Paula Pant]

Can I add to that? Because listening to you describe that, it makes me think of the metaphor of the cook versus the chef, right? A cook might follow a recipe exactly as written, whereas a chef would look at a variety of different recipes, figure out what some of the common underlying themes or trends or, you know, what are they really trying to get at in the construction of this, and then riff on that to come up with something original.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's fantastic. You're making me hungry. Well, luckily what I'm hungry for is trivia. How about that? We're halfway through. Halfway through today's show. That would be the worst fricking segue ever until I've been gone a couple weeks. At the halfway point of every show, Stackers, we dive into this year long trivia competition. And Paula, what are you holding up to the camera? Oh, it's.

[Paula Pant]

It's a box of cherries. It's a box. It's. It's not exactly the same as a banana, but I mean that's. Three out of the five of us are just sitting here with fruit. Two out of the five. Two out of the five. Oh my gosh.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I was about to say I need to hold up like a piece of pizza or some chocolate or something. What's going on?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What's this happen on our show? Why I can't figure it out.

[Doug]

How am I not supposed to make a joke about that? A box of cherries.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

A box of cherries.

[Doug]

Seriously, you cannot do that to me.

[Paula Pant]

A box at life is like a box of chocolates.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is.

[Jesse Kramer]

Is.

[Doug]

Yep. Oh, yeah, that's what I was thinking.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What? And what? And Jesse holding up his banana.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is that what you're saying?

[Doug]

Exactly. You guys are killing me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow. Doug is 12 years old. He is seriously 12 years old. We at the halfway point of every show, we call a halt to the incredible discussion that we're having because we have this year long trivia competition between our three frequent contributors which include OG and Jordan. You're playing on behalf of OG today. Which means like last time you were here, dude, you have one job to lose to lose.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

But I didn't do it last time, did I?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You did not do it last time. And Paula and Jesse and Doug, you've got the score between Doc G/ OG all the G's and Jesse and Paula. What is the score so far this year?

[Doug]

I do. At the moment, OG has a commanding lead with eight and Jesse and Paula are trying. They are running neck and neck at 5.5 points. So five and a half points and.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Two of those points come down to Dr. Jordan Grumman who just, just. I don't know what happened that day. That was a dark day in stacking Benjamin's history. But where there's a will, there's a way. Jordan, you can get back.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I promise I won't win again.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You can get back your mojo. But Doug, we need a question this week. What's going on on today's date.

[Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. And because it's hotter than beach sand in the afternoon and everyone's thinking about how fast they can run from their towel to the water, let's celebrate the one thing that made everyone get to the water's edge and say, nope. The movie jaws was released 50 years ago last week and broke sales records across the world, bringing in tons of money for Steven Spielberg. Yes, audiences across the world went to the theater their pants and never visited the beach again. Not a joke. Beaches across the world world lost tons of traffic and all on account of a fake shark that barely worked enough to complete the film. So here's today's question marking this anniversary. Jaws was the first movie widely released on a format called LaserDisc. These LP sized discs doubled the resolution of popular formats of the day like VHS and Betamax and was also the first to include CD quality, digital audio audio and surround sound. While laserdiscs didn't end up making nearly as many Benjamins as creators had hoped, it stayed around four. Well, there's a question. What year did the last laserdisc hit the North American market? I'll be back right after I go find a pen to rewind this cassette tape. Hey, Gen X, explain that one to all the young punks listening, would you?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right, Jordan, you are up first.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I have no clue.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What was the last year a laserdisc was released in the usa?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Last year a laserdisc. This is just for movies. I mean, last year a laserdisc was released in the usa.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, North America.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I'm sorry, North America. I'm gonna say 2008.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

2000.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

And I have no reason, I have no reason for that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jesse, you think that's early or late?

[Jesse Kramer]

I was born in 1990 and I don't think I've ever seen a laserdisc.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

There it is.

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm gonna say 1990 and that's my reason why 1990.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Because they were extinct To Jesse already. Have you seen the laserdisc since or you've never seen one? Still have never seen one.

[Jesse Kramer]

I don't think I've ever seen one. I'll google it after this and just see if I recognize what it looks like.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think I read, Doug, there were 2 million people in the United States that had one. I believe in Japan it had 10% of the population actually embraced that technology just so they could make sure they had to get rid of all those before they went to DVDs and DVDs. And onto the next thing before streaming. But I think I knew, Doug, one person who owned a laserdisc player. Did you know anybody?

[Doug]

I only knew I saw one once.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Yeah. I was at somebody's house, they had one, and I thought, well, that thing's huge, Jordan.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You ever see one?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I'm having trouble figuring out the difference between a laserdisc player and a CD player.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

A laserdisc is like the size of an lp. Like it was seriously huge.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Okay.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

A CD is, you know, much, much, much smaller.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I'm vaguely remembering them, but I think Jesse's more right. I think it was probably gone by the 90s, but I'm vaguely remembering that.

[Jesse Kramer]

Could you guys give some more context and hints to Paula before she gets.

[Doug]

Are we going to get Paula's answer here? What the heck are we doing?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Oh, sorry, I forgot.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, Paula, I guess that you should probably go too.

[Paula Pant]

Well, okay, so in Doug's question, he mentioned that jaws was released 50 years ago. So that would have been 1975.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That was the first one.

[Paula Pant]

That was the first one. So if the first one was 1975, then the question is how long would a given piece of. What then was new technology? Like, what is the life cycle of a piece of technology from birth to death?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That kind of is what we're asking Paula.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I think she talks herself out of getting the right answer.

[Doug]

Go ahead, ask Joe how long his Microsoft Zune player last game. That'll give you an idea. Both of the ones that he owned.

[Paula Pant]

Back in those days, tech didn't iterate as quickly as it does today. So I'm going to take the over and say 1991.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

1991. All right, we got 2008. 1990, 1991. I love how the people in last like cannibalize each other. What are we doing?

[Jesse Kramer]

Take the under. Take the under on doc.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Let's see. Let's see who's right. We're gonna get to that in just a minute. We'll be right back.

[Progressive Insurance]

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[Joe Saul-Sehy]

As a contractor, I don't pay for materials I don't use so why would I pay for stuff I don't need.

[Jesse Kramer]

In my mobile plan?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's why the new My Biz plan from Verizon Business is so perfect. Now I can choose exactly what I want and I only pay for what.

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[Joe Saul-Sehy]

30, 2025 I think you're on mute.

[Doug]

Workday starting to sound the same.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think you're on mute.

[Doug]

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[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Docji, you kicked this off with 2008. Jesse and Paula said nay, nay. They think it was way earlier. What do you think? You feeling confident?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I don't know. I was feeling unconfident and then I was looking at Doug's face and he seems kind of bummed. So maybe I'm. Maybe I'm closer than I thought.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I don't know.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

See his poker face? Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jesse, how are you feeling at 1990?

[Jesse Kramer]

Not as good as I was before Paulo's guess, but yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So you think it's after 1990?

[Jesse Kramer]

Well, I just think that half of my. Half my probabilities just got cut off. You know?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That is true.

[Jesse Kramer]

I've been bisected.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Why?

[Jesse Kramer]

Why?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Why?

[Jesse Kramer]

Like. Like a shark. Like a shark. It's like Jaws just cut me in half, you know?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Paula, how you feel it?

[Paula Pant]

You know, I'm. I'm. I am maybe regretting a little bit. Maybe I should have just taken the average between the two, right? Maybe I should have just gone for like 2,000 or something, you know, square. I mean not that's not the exact average, but somewhere in the middle.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Paula, 12 years of futility at this can't be wrong.

[Doug]

Why change your strategy?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Turn over a new leaf today. Doug, who won this thing?

[Doug]

Oh God, this whole answer is going to be so painful for me to do. I'll just grin and bear it here. Hey there, Stackers. I'M home movie lover and guy who probably owes blockbuster about 145 bucks in rewind fees. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. It's the anniversary of the hit movie Jaws, which came out an incredible 50 years ago last week. One stat about the film because the mechanical shark didn't work right. That forced Spielberg and company to create a better soundtrack and allusions to the shark without showing it until about an hour into the movie. Because you didn't actually see the shark, it actually made the film that much more frightening. Speaking of frightening, one thing laserdisc owners feared was the death of their beloved machines. While collectors still dot the landscape. What year did the last laser disc hit the North American market? Well, the correct answer is Paramount's Bringing out the dead on October 3rd. I'm not going to tell you the actual year, but I will say Jesse was off by 10 years. Paula was off by nine years. Doc was off by just eight years because the correct year was 2000. God.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm going to throw away.

[Doug]

Why are we inviting this guy back?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I'm telling you, Doug's face said it all. That's the only reason I thought I was totally off. And then Doug kept on. He kept shaking his head. He just kept on shaking his head.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

If you're not with us on YouTube, you totally missed the best video of Doug's face.

[Doug]

I'm so pissed. I don't know. How hard is this? I don't know who to be mad or at, Doc or Paula.

[Paula Pant]

Because, Paula, seriously, I can't believe I actually prefaced that by saying I regret not choosing 2000.

[Doug]

Yeah, I know.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So do we.

[Doug]

If you had said, doug, can I change my answer? I would have implored you to Change your answer 100%.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We're hoping, anyway. Well, that was fun. Let's. Let's rinse and get back to the piece, shall we? Doc G. Congratulations, man.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

He's got to be sending me a gift. I think I'm just handing this one to him.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

By the way, it's 2000 for the US and in Asia, where there was more penetration in the market, it was 2001.

[Progressive Insurance]

You guys are 12.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I swear to God, 12 years old. I just. It's. Wow. You can't say anything without just the. All right, let's see if we can re rail this conversation with two more lies. While, Christine, we can speak lie number three. Exercise your willpower to save money and get out of debt. Jesse, we even started with you with one of these lies yet. So let's have you Take this one. Is this a lie? Exercise your willpower to save money and get out of debt.

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm not sure how that's a lie, to be honest with you, because I. I think in order to make decisions, good or bad in life, you need some willpower to get off. Off the couch and do stuff. I just see the truth. The truth in opposition to this lie is to utilize the power of emotion and habit to easily save money and.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Pay off debt, which sure sounds like willpower.

[Jesse Kramer]

Well, I don't know. It just. It sounds like. It's exactly. It just sounds like a little bit of semantics, a little bit of wordplay, like, don't use willpower. Just use emotion and habit. I don't know. So this is a lie. I can't. I think this lie is a lie.

[Doug]

It also directly contradicts lie number one, which is don't use budgets, which all that is, is a tool to build habits.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I agree. So this one did throw me for a bit of a loop.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I don't know, though. It's funny, Jesse, I do think that this is a lie. I do think it's a lie. Paula, what do you think?

[Paula Pant]

I think the waterfall is number one, automation, Number two, habits, and then number three, willpower. So first, automate anything you can, and then if you can't automate something, try to form a habit or a system around it. And if it's something that you can't form a habit or a system around, then willpower is what's required. And sometimes willpower is what gets you from step three to kind of up the waterfall. I guess that's where the waterfall analogy falls short. Nothing moves up a waterfall. Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hey, we've had lots of great analogies that didn't work so far today. So just throw another one on the fire. All right.

[Paula Pant]

Throwing waterfall on the fire.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jesse, that was totally my thought, too. Was that like in the hierarchy of things, people that think. And this is what I thought. I thought I just got to have more willpower and be better with money. It wasn't until I developed systems and I realized the power of systems and not leaving it to willpower because willpower was too easy to break, you know, I mean, there were too many opportunities for me to go spend money, but once I set up system, so I never had any money, it was way better. That was where I thought this was actually a lie.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree with the explanations that you guys have provided. I'm just trying to sit here to myself and Just try to understand how someone can get started on these kind of journeys that we're talking about here. Again, kind of going back to. Going back to basics, going back to square one. We're talking to people right now who are just trying to get behind the eight ball and kind of reorient their financial lives. And to think that willpower isn't going to play a role in that process. My just gut reaction is like, what do you mean? It has to play some role. You have to want to improve. And it's going to take a little bit of willpower to initially break your bad habits, for example. Well, that's going to take a little bit of willpower. So it's not necessarily that you guys are wrong with your explanations. It's just that this lie is written. I'm not fully in agreement that it's a lie.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's funny. It's kind of the basis of David Bach's book, which is about people focus too much on willpower and not enough on systems. Doc.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

G. Yeah, I mean, I think the mistake we're making here is the author is saying whether they're saying right out or not is that gurus believe in absolutes and absolutes don't work. But then the author themselves is putting out a whole different opposite set of absolutes. I mean, the truth of the matter is it's both, right? You have to be able to budget and not budget. You have to be able to follow what other people do and not follow what other people do. I mean, you have to be able to do both. You need willpower. But then you also have to save yourself from having willpower all the time. I think that's where this article becomes what it's criticizing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But this is the difficult part for me is that I hear exactly what you're saying, Jordan. But I also think I'm like, okay, if I'm sitting here listening to us talk about this, we say this all the time, right? We're like, well, that works for some people, doesn't work for other people. So. And then, you know, you get to the end of the episode, you're like, what? So what the hell do I do? Like, where do I go with this then? So, Paula, if I gotta know when it's an absolute, when it's not. Like, again, how do I frame my starting point?

[Paula Pant]

The author, Gretchen Rubin, I think, has very good advice about this. She talks about how start with your personality, because some people are better at having absolutes and some people are better at living in kind of a World of moderation. Right. So, for example, some people go back to the diet analogy. For some people, it works really well for them to just have a rule that says, I will never eat dessert or I will never eat chocolate. And that level of absolute is what allows them to stick to it. Because if it were. If it was a sometimes, maybe then it would devolve. And there are other people for whom it's the opposite. There are some people who just. Their personality is. If it's an absolute, I'm going to rebel against it. So I think Gretchen's point is start with that self knowledge of are you the type of person who thrives with absolutes or who thrives with moderation and gray area and then take it from there.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You're nodding your head, Jesse, you agree with that?

[Jesse Kramer]

Well, a lot of what Paula was making sense, especially I was thinking about my own diet and I was like, yeah, I certainly. It's just funny too, how different kind of like realms. So diet versus finances versus something else. I feel like in finances, I can thrive under moderation. I can be like, I know what the rules are, and I know that 90% of the time I'm supposed to do this. But yeah, 10% of the time I'll break that rule and I'll be fine for it and I won't devolve into this bad slippery slope habit like Paula was saying. But on the diet side, I feel like if I don't have absolutes, then I devolve pretty quickly. Like, I could be on a good diet for a week, and then it's like, whatever, yeah, I'll just have some chips and salsa. I'll break my rule because I, you know, I've had a good week, and next thing I know, like a day later, the whole bag is gone. That's just me. But it's just funny too, you know, in one area, in one realm, I'm okay with moderation, and in the other one, I need some absolutes to really stay focused. But so I agree, I agree with. Was Gretchen Rubin. That's.

[Paula Pant]

That's Gretchen Rubin. Yeah.

[Jesse Kramer]

Good thoughts.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It is funny, though, when you talk about, like, hey, I'm just going to have the chips and salsa or whatever. And it is the thing that goes directly against your diet. That is the thing that you crave at the end of the week because you did really well. You know what I mean? How ridiculous that is. I just want to break the thing that is working. Like, if I could stop doing the thing that's working, that would be really, really great. We see results and then we, I don't know, we undercut ourselves. Yeah, lie number four on here. Our last one is cut up your credit cards to keep from overspending. Paula, what do you think?

[Paula Pant]

I disagree with the author. I think that if a person has a difficult time with managing their spending, then getting rid of credit cards, or at a minimum, sticking them in a. You don't necessarily have to cut it up, but stick it in a jar of peanut butter, stick it in a block of ice, give it to a friend to hold on to.

[Doug]

Disgusting.

[Paula Pant]

You know, you're creating friction around your ability to use it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You're like, paula, that's your eighth peanut butter and jelly sandwich of the day.

[Paula Pant]

So that way, if there's truly, truly an emergency, you can still get to it, but it has to really be an emergency.

[Doug]

It would take you like 20 minutes to clean the peanut butter off of that to buy that lipstick on Amazon.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, come on. It would take Doug four minutes. It would take you four minutes if it were crunchy.

[Doug]

I love crunchy peanut butter.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm gonna stick it in the crunchy one. Yeah, the diet goes to hell. But hey, the credit card's safe. It's all protein for 4 minutes.

[Paula Pant]

Use it to buy more peanut butter.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Doc G. Cut up the credit cards. Is that a good prescription?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

I can go either way on this. I don't think you have to get rid of the credit cards, but I guess again, you need to know yourself. And so if having credit cards around is something that's going to tempt you to no end and you're going to spend more, then you got to get rid of them. On the other hand, if you can manage it, credit card points, travel stuff, all the good things credit cards can do for you, and you can still budget and plan and be wise spends who you are.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But those points, Jesse, are what get new, new people to credit cards into trouble quicker.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I mean, on that. We've probably talked about this here before, but the only reason why some of us are able to benefit from the credit card points game is because there are other people on the other side who are losing the credit card game terribly. And they're in debt. Right. Their debt payment, their debt service to the credit card company is what funds our points.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yay.

[Jesse Kramer]

So there's definitely some losers to the game, you know? Do you disagree? I mean, that's. Well, you guys were American Express guys. Am I wrong on that?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No, not at all.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah. What were your thoughts, Doug? I could hear you.

[Doug]

I Was saying, yay. Like, I'm glad those saps are out there. Absolutely. Keep sucking America.

[Jesse Kramer]

You heard it here first.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Doug's like, why aren't we lying to people every meeting we have? He's like, we need to lie so that we can keep ahead of somebody.

[Jesse Kramer]

I did like the truth here in lie number four because it kind of resonated with me. The payment method is rarely the problem. I was thinking about that and I'm trying to think to myself, like, well, one of the problems with credit cards is just the access to easy credit, Right? Or it's almost like in investing, it's like the access to easy leverage or like in the whole sports gambling thing, like, here's some free money, Go bet. The access to easy anything can be a problem. But then I'm like, okay, so if. If this person gets rid of credit cards, do they still have a way to do like buy now, pay later? Because that's the same thing. It's access to easy credit. Even if you remove credit cards, I think some people would still have a spending issue that they would need to somehow resolve. But you are taking away one of those avenues to easy credit, which probably on net is going to help a.

[Doug]

Lot of people, in fact, to support the notion that the payment method is rarely the problem. Or maybe it's the opposite. But FICO just announced they're going to be incorporating BNPL data into their credit score algorithm.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow.

[Doug]

So it's. Yeah, it's the same thing, really, when you think about it. It's just another name for credit. They absolutely should.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Sure. It's 100% credit. I mean, klarna equals credit. Affirm equals credit. You know, I'm glad you talked about this piece, Jesse, again, because right below what you read. Listen to what she says. I do have some clients who know they can't trust themselves with a credit card, so they choose not to have one. Which is kind of where I come down. You should choose not to have one. So cutting it up, I think is a great idea. But then she says, I recommend that if my clients do decide they can handle a credit card responsibly, they keep one card with a reasonably low limit and pay it off in full monthly. Okay. Jordan, isn't this pretty much the same thing as cut up your credit cards? I mean, isn't she. I mean, really saying yes?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Yes. I mean, I. And this is. I had the problem with this. Is it. There's. I don't know if the point actually holds on number four. I think she's kind of speaking out of both sides of her mouth. And the reason why is because there's really not an argument to be made. I mean, again, we're talking about nuance. Really. People are different, and so it's hard to give one specific rule that fits everybody.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, it's funny. So on point with all four of these, Paula, where do you come down? Are these generally lies or are they not lies? Are these lies? You're seeing a bunch of money gurus.

[Paula Pant]

Telling you lies is a strong word. Number one, the word lie implies intent. It implies the intent to mislead. I think what these truly are are statements that that are often phrased as absolutes, but that actually when you unpack them, are statements that ought to be presented in a more nuanced manner.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

They're good discussion starters, right? They're just good discussion starters.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Jesse Kramer]

My first instinct was this is a great clickbait title, 100% right. I think if she threw an MFER in there too, it would have made it even better. Here are four lies that dirty mfing money gurus tell you sign me up, right? I'll read that article every day. No, I totally agree with what Paula said and what docji agreed with. Like these are four pieces of general guidance that certainly apply to a large lot of people. But it's just like presenting them as absolutes. What this is is a straw man, right? Presenting them as absolutes and then coming in and beating the piss out of these absolute rules. That is definition, strawman arguing. It's still fun conversation. I've had a blast today. Have you seen my banana? But the podcast audience will be they have no idea what's going on here on the video version. But anyway, it was a good article in terms of just like Doc G said, great conversation starter.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, I thought that when I when I saw this I was so angry when I read it. I'm like, this is a bunch of. Oh wait, this is a roundtable. So good. Want to say a shout out to some more stackers hanging out with us? Rocky? Rocky says Doug likes your new background. Apparently Rocky watches enough Stalk much?

[Doug]

Rocky.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And Leonidas Annette is here from Pennsylvania hanging out. Glad you guys are here. And anybody else hanging out. Usually we are doing these on Wednesday afternoon around 4pm Eastern Time. Do the math on your time zone and we'd love to have you and tell friends that maybe need to get their financial house in order that it's a fun way to chat on these episodes about how to have more money and by the way the chat doesn't end here, it also is on the channels that these fine contributors of ours have of their own. So let's find out what you guys got going on because it's always fun. Paula, what's happening over to Ford? Anything?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, well, of course, every other episode. Ish of Afford Anything. You join me, Joe.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Every other episode. Asterisk Ish.

[Paula Pant]

Well, you're on most of our Tuesday episodes.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes.

[Paula Pant]

So, yeah, most Tuesdays Joe joins me and we answer listener submitted questions. Then on Fridays we interview guests. Typically on Fridays we interview guests. And so Katie from Money with Katie joins us. He talks about just a wide, wide variety of, like, personal finance ideas. Later, J.L. collins is going to be joining us. We have an hour and a half, at least close to two hours, conversation where we unpack the simple path to wealth.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow. J.L. collins getting deep. That's weird.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

That's strange.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That guy doesn't have any feelings about any of this stuff. Yeah, that's fantastic. And that's all at Afford Anything. Jordan, what's happening at the Earn and Invest podcast?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

So, as always on Mondays, I do my 10 things episodes that can be 10 things about anything, but usually have something to do with the Thursday interview. I've got all sorts of Thursday interviews coming. I am interviewing Steve Eisman, who is played by Steve Carell in the Big Short. And so I'm looking forward to asking him all sorts of questions, like, was Steve Carell a good representation of him? Yeah. So he was an investor and he shorted the real estate market. He was one of the big winners. But if you watch the Big Short, which I rewatched recently, you know, he really is more the ethical one who thinks like, all sorts of horrible stuff is going on and he's kind of taking the money, but it's almost a sugar pill because he feels really bad about it because he sees the system breaking down and hurting people. And so it's a really interesting character. I'm looking forward to talking to him personally about how much of that reflects who he is.

[Doug]

Can you also ask him his plans to bring the Detroit Red Wings out of irrelevance? Because I think he's also the general manager of Detroit Red Wings, isn't he?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Joe Izer, man, not eyes, man. I knew Doug was going there. I could see in his face like, oh, Eisen.

[Doug]

Oh, I got one.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. Whole different party. But that's fantastic. I remember the scene where he stood up at the shareholder meeting and he's just like questioning the dude going, you don't think these are going underwater.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Yeah, that's what I want to ask him when I interview him. I'm like, did this actually happen? Were you actually standing there, like, questioning? Because it should be fun.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Was he in the scene where they interview the woman who works at the. At the strip club?

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Yes, that was him. Yeah, that was him interviewing the woman at the strip club.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Yeah, that was Steve Carell.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Yeah, for sure.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

They're asking all these different people. It was so crazy. Wow.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Yeah, it was a fun. I mean, it was a really fun movie.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's it. Earn and invest. And last but not least, of course, Jesse has the incredible Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast. What's going on at the PFLT podcast?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I'm still working on that. I need a good word. I need a good acronym. The piffle and listeners, there's a competition. I will send you a free T shirt if you submit a winning acronym to me. There we go. You heard it here first. Zach and Benjamins so recently last week released a cool Keeping up with the Joneses episode featuring, I think it was, six unique spending stories. And it's been really well received so far. So I might do more episodes like that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Those were fun stories, by the way.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

Because you had such good guests.

[Jesse Kramer]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Doc G (Jordan Grumman)]

That's what it was.

[Jesse Kramer]

Exactly. Right. Next week is going to be a deep dive ode to Warren Buffett where I kind of go into eight individual kind of ideas of his that he just contributed so much wisdom to over the years, like Circle of Competence and Margin of Safety and some other investing ideas. And we do a deep dive.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

There's. I love what all you guys do. It's just so fun to see, like, where your brains take you and the people that you talk to and the way that you interview them. And it's super fun to follow. So we will link to all those on our show notes [e-mail] but as always, Doug's got the last word on Friday to end the week. Doug, what should be on our to do list as our takeaways today?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from our Sith Lord, Jesse. Don't fall victim to the laws of absolute absolutes. There are no specific formulas that work for everyone. Understand and follow the general frameworks and you'll be fine. Second, hopefully you heard the sage advice from Doc G. Make sure you know all the rules of the game so you know where you can cheat without getting caught. Just like he's cheated in the last two trivia sections he's been on.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That might not be the takeaway was for me.

[Doug]

Keep learning for me. But the big lesson, don't tell Joe's mom you're headed to the beach. She'll immediately begin lecturing you about appropriate sunscreen and appropriate bathing suits and how to prep a cooler full of gin and tonics. Well, she got one out of three of those right. I was talking about the bathing suits. Thanks to Doc G for joining us today. You'll find his show Earn and Invest wherever you're listening to this podcast. We'll also include include links in our show [e-mail] thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fabulous podcast Afford Anything wherever you listen to finer podcasts. And finally, I'll slow things down a little bit here. Thanks to the Jesse Kramer for joining us today. His amazing podcast Personal Finance for Long Term Investors is also available amazingly wherever you're listening to us today. You know what? I'm going to also make sure personally that this show is added to our show notes. You're completely welcome. Don't mention it. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin show. And finally, I'll slow things down a little bit here. Thanks to the Jesse Kramer for joining us today. His amazing podcast Personal Finance for Long Term Investors is also available amazingly wherever you're listening to us today. You know what? I'm going to also make sure personally that this show is added to our show notes. You're completely welcome. Don't mention it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow.

[Doug]

Get all of that? I just really wanted to promo Jesse. I wanted to make sure that people got all the details so they could go listen to the Fault podcast.

[Jesse Kramer]

That's the first submission. Not going to make it very far, dog. I think you're eliminated in the first round of the bracket.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No, you got to put the eye on the end of it. Faulty.

[Jesse Kramer]

Faulty.

[Doug]

The faulty podcast. Yeah.