Doug (9:56)

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And last week we helped you set better goals and stay focused. So today we'll teach you how to conquer those goals with a woman who's taken on immense challenges and climbed literal mountains. International speaker and author Jen Drummond for our TikTok minute. More 2024 predictions following the avalanche. OG just loved last week. And in our headlines, climbing the job market is getting more difficult. According to the Wall Street Journal, what should you do to enhance your career when opportunities are shrinking? We'll share. Plus, we'll throw out the lifeline to a stacker who needs help scaling Money Mountain. And then, speaking of share, I'll share some relatable trivia. And speaking of mountains, here's a guy who's Pete and Joe Salsiha.

Joe (11:09)

Hey there.

OG (11:10)

Happy Monday to you. Nice one there. And we didn't get a smile.

Doug (11:13)

I don't think he got it. We didn't get a reaction out of it. Right over his head.

Joe (11:17)

Nothing.

OG (11:18)

Everybody happy Right over his head Day on the podcast. I'm Joe Salsi. Hi. Over Joe Money on Twitter on X and across the card table from me, not the fake OG on X, it's Mr. OG. You're looking a little tan, a little relaxed, like your your hair has been swinging in the breeze. In Pasadena, California, it was cloudy and

Joe (11:39)

rainy and very cool for all but the last two days.

OG (11:43)

The game looked phenomenal and they look great. They kept talking about how amazing the weather was during the Rose Bowl.

Joe (11:49)

The tour guide on the bus that took us from the parade to the game said this was her 35th time doing this tour and she can remember it misting only one day in 35 years. She said it's for whatever reason, it can be smoggy and crappy and rainy and cold on the 31st, and it can be smoggy and crappy and cold and cloudy and nasty on the second. But when those cameras come on January 1st at 8am Pacific time, it is. The sun's coming up over the mountains. It's perfectly clear. And everybody moves to California because of that. Nice video.

OG (12:22)

The universe knows how to light it up for the Rose Bowl. Hey, speaking of the universe lighting it up, not a lot of mist on the top of the mountain she climbed. Well, maybe a lot of mist. We'll find out. Jen Drummond has climbed some literal mountains, as Doug said. Oh gee. And she's going to talk about being resilient when it comes to your goals. You know what's funny? Kevin, who brilliantly writes our newsletter, I love at the top of our newsletter last week, a section we call the 41 1. This is just a list of statistics. Third statistic down. I don't know if you guys saw this. The number of people that give up on their New Year's resolutions in the first week. 900. No, 9%. But still, it's a big number. 9% of people. It's like, yeah, I can't do that. Go to the gym. Hard pass.

Joe (13:08)

It's day eight. It's very tough.

OG (13:10)

Yeah, fantastic. Time to talk about getting more resilient. But man, we got the TikTok minute. We got a headline that are both juicy. So let's jump in as soon as. As soon as OG you tell us about writing. You went to Disney, I think you

Joe (13:25)

wrote It's a small world and you'll never get this. And then they sing the song again, but in a different language.

OG (13:32)

Wow. Really?

Doug (13:33)

That's the best.

OG (13:34)

Wait a minute, which language?

Joe (13:35)

Well, first and then finally it wraps up.

OG (13:39)

That's fabulous.

Joe (13:40)

Yeah, it's 17 minutes of pure bliss.

OG (13:44)

Unbelievable. You came out with both your eyes intact. That's the amazing part. We got Jed Drummond waiting for us, but as I mentioned earlier, big headline today. Hello, darlings.

Joe (13:56)

And now it's time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamin's

OG (14:01)

headlines headline from the Wall Street Journal this morning. This is written by Gabriel Rubin and Harriet Tory. A little bit disturbing news. OG finding a new job is getting harder, they write. Employers finished 2023 with far fewer open positions than at the start of the year, according to private sector estimates, as businesses filled more jobs and decided not to hire for others. Total job postings as of the end of 2023 declined more than 15% from a year earlier, according to data from job listing site. Indeed, through December 29, quote, the pace of descent seems to have leveled off a bit in the second half of the year, said Nick Bunker, an economist at the job site. So while jobs kind of have been level lately, 2023, not a great year for, for the job market and next year, a lot of people say, isn't going to get a lot better. I think it's a good time, oh gee. To really focus on maybe love the one you're with, as the old song goes.

Joe (14:56)

Well, that or networking, right? I mean, at the end of the day, most professionals will find their next thing through people that they know or people that know, people that they know. And if it's not raining job opportunities, the next best thing is to make sure that your networking is up to date. So make sure your LinkedIn looks good, make sure you've updated your progress at the end of the year, that sort of thing. It's a great time right now. I was working on something for my side hustle that I do and just kind of sitting down and recapping, you know, just putting some bullet points of how 2023, with the side hustle, sent it to a mentor and said, what do you think about this? He's like, oh, my gosh, this is great. Except I would take this part out and, you know, just kind of get a little refresh on. Keeping track of your network is a great way to spend the first couple weeks of the year, I think.

OG (15:42)

I like the idea that you mentioned kind of casually there of having an outsider look at it, right? Somebody with fresh eyes. You've seen your LinkedIn profile a hundred times, your Facebook profile 100 times. People come spy on you all the time, right? Look you up, who are you? What's going on? So having somebody else look at that and go, you know, what this needs is a great idea.

Joe (16:02)

Yeah, absolutely. Especially. Especially somebody that's in the, you know, at a higher level than maybe where you are and knows what the next level is looking for. You know, what are the. What are the buzzwords these days? Right? You want to make sure that that stuff's included in your profile, so to speak.

OG (16:17)

When I was at fincon, which is an industry conference that we attended, as we've mentioned to everyone back in 2023, 2022, 2021, attending industry conferences, I don't think for most of us is optional. If you get the opportunity, you really. Networking is much better OG face to face, right? Yeah. I don't know what it is. There's some chemical thing. We've had experts on the show that have talked about this. Scientists talk about something different happens when you're face to face in the same room. Then even on a zoom call, way, way, way different energy. But a guy named Brian Feroldi, who has been on this show, was talking about just looking through his Twitter profile, like, what that looked like. And for him, he's trying to attract an audience because he's teaching people about stocks. He's like, you know, a lot of this doesn't have to do anything with stocks. It's kind of soft skills, right? Do I seem approachable? Do I seem like somebody people want to be around? Do I seem like a person that you would want to learn from? Like, think about your role and then think about, does your. Does your online presence match your role? And I started laughing because you guys remember that, you know, you hear about this all the time from HR people. The person who doesn't get the job because their name was hot, sexy, butt 87 or whatever, you know, @gmail.com AOL.com

Doug (17:32)

I said not to reveal that. Come on.

OG (17:35)

Like, you just gotta clean that up. You might have said something when you were young and stupid 10 years ago. They're gonna go find that.

Joe (17:42)

Yeah. And I think it's also important to recognize what if you're trying to do something different, if you're trying to move somewhere, you have to tell people you just can't keep that to yourself and say, oh, you know, I really hope that promotion comes through. I think I'd be a real great fit for that, that new role up in Seattle, you know, I hope they pick me. It's like, tell everybody, tell the world. This is what I want to do. And I think I'd be really great at it. Let me tell you the reasons why. Because they don't know either if your boss or a different company, they're trying to put together a new role or promote somebody or find a new position. They don't know what they're looking for either. What they hope is that they get somebody that's really excited about it. And if you show up with a pretty good profile and a pretty good referral source and a really great enthusiasm level, I say you have a pretty awesome chance at moving up.

OG (18:28)

I had to do that personally last year, and I don't like doing that. And I know I'm, you know, I'm not the only one likes going, hey, og, you know what I need? You know what I really want? Like, I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be the needy person.

Joe (18:38)

Seems funky, doesn't it?

OG (18:40)

It does. But you're right, you have to. I had to put it out after several years of thinking, hey, people are going to call me, because I'm a pretty good speaker. I used to give talks all the time when I was at American Express.

Joe (18:50)

I do say so myself.

OG (18:52)

Well, last year I had to tell people I'm interested improving this part of my business. By the way, there is another story there, which is when I first gave a talk, the first talk I gave, dusting it off, thinking, Joe's still a good speaker. I was like the tennis player that hadn't played in 30 years and used to be a semi pro and come out like, I got it and then just completely crap the bed. The first speech I gave, just absolutely. I'm like, wow, maybe I have to practice this stuff. So there were definitely some lessons there, but I had to tell people. And because of that, I did some great MC gigs. I did some Great headlining speaking gigs, but I had to tell people, which was tough. And then from those.

Joe (19:28)

Nobody can read your mind.

OG (19:29)

No. And from those referrals came. But you got to do it, you know? And to do that, though, I think it's a good time. Speaking of dusting off your LinkedIn profile, good time to dust off some of the basics. And nothing more basic guys than Dale Carnegie win friends and influence people if the job market gets tight. And I know sometimes they're going to lay off a whole department. Doug, you've seen this before. They're going to lay off everybody. So you can be the nicest person out there and your job still isn't going to get saved.

Doug (19:53)

Oh, yeah, that's got nothing to do with it.

OG (19:55)

However, being easy to work with makes it less likely that you'll be the first person off the island. Right? You want to be the person whose name they want to. Oh, we really can't let. No, we got to do it. So these are some of the big tips from Dale Carnegie that I just pulled up. Avoid criticizing, condemning, or complaining. Give, give. There's so many jokes there. Give. Honest, sincere appreciation. I love you guys. This one. Arouse in the other person an eager desire. Oh, God, I think that's 1920s writing right there.

Doug (20:29)

I was gonna say we need to update that language.

OG (20:33)

I would like to arouse in you guys an eager desire.

Doug (20:36)

Well, I've got an eager desire about you right now. Joe, it's not what you think.

OG (20:40)

Talk in terms of the other person's interest. I have a family member. You could tell them you could go, hey, guess what? Yeah, I was on this plane and it started going down, so I had to grab a parachute and jump out. It was amazing. And she will go, oh, that's good. You know, my back really hurts. And I. You're like, yeah. Then like Jen Drummond, I scaled one of the world's tallest mountains. Oh, that's neat. How's your cat doing? Like, totally misses all the cues to be interested in somebody else's life. Speaking of that, remember names. Can't remember your guys names. Become genuinely interested in other people. Avoid arguments. Be a good listener. Those. Those seem basic OG, but OG's face

Doug (21:23)

is blank like this. None of these words are registering with og.

OG (21:27)

Wow.

Doug (21:28)

Sounds like a waste of time to me, guys.

OG (21:30)

Maybe I should look up this book. What's it called?

Joe (21:32)

Whatever your names are. I'm not listening. Let me tell you a little something about me, though.

OG (21:38)

Just keep reading, Harry. Get on with it. We will link to this book if you haven't read it, you can so

Joe (21:43)

old it's out of copyright. You could literally write the thing yourself and sell it on Amazon. Did you hear? Speaking of things out of copyright, Mickey Mouse is out of copyright now. Steamboat Willie.

OG (21:54)

Steamboat Willie.

Joe (21:54)

Yeah, Steamboat Willie. Did you hear about the first fair use thing that they're doing with it?

OG (22:00)

No.

Doug (22:01)

It's like a slasher movie or something, isn't it?

Joe (22:03)

Yes, it's a slasher movie. It's like a. It's like a horror flick. And Steamboat Willie is supposedly the antagonist.

Doug (22:11)

I wonder if it's the same outfit that did the slasher movie for Winnie the Pooh last year.

OG (22:15)

Oh my goodness. Really?

Joe (22:17)

That one out too?

OG (22:18)

Yeah.

Doug (22:18)

And then Tigger. Tigger just came off copyright. So in the sequel, because we have to have a sequel to that movie. Tigger is going to be.

Joe (22:27)

It's Winnie the Pooh and Tigger too.

Doug (22:29)

I don't know if Tigger gets it or if he's a new protagonist.

Joe (22:34)

I don't know.

OG (22:34)

You could have said there was in the sequel. Like what the hell are you talking about in the sequel? You know, a book that needs a sequel. CNN called Stack the book to read in 2023. And if you did and haven't implemented the steps in that book, the fantastic steps I should say in the book or if you haven't, guess what? We're going to start. We're doing an organized book club with. Wait for it, the author himself. I wonder who that is. I bet it's some really good looking dude.

Joe (23:02)

It's a her.

OG (23:03)

Who wrote that?

Joe (23:04)

No, it's a her.

Jen Drummond (23:05)

Yeah.

Joe (23:05)

Isn't it Emily somebody or not?

OG (23:07)

Yes it is. Emily's co author who, who I heard is just amazing.

Joe (23:11)

Oh.

OG (23:12)

Head to stacking Benjamins.com book club for more on the book club. To get registered we're going to do 10 weeks, 90 minute sessions. We're going to take it chapter by chapter and go through the book stacks. Decking benjamin.com book club is one of

Doug (23:27)

those steps have more money.

OG (23:29)

Is it that? That is step one.

Doug (23:30)

Is that like step two? If just, just have more money.

OG (23:33)

If you have more money, you wouldn't be broke. It's a two page, one page book.

Doug (23:37)

We figured it out.

OG (23:39)

Time for our TikTok minute. The part of the show where we take a look at a TikTok creator and see whether they're saying something brilliant or maybe air quotes. Brilliant. Doug, we went to og. He's not going to turn over a New Leaf in 2024. Last week. So this week I'm coming to you. Is this going to be brilliant or air quotes? Brilliant.

Doug (23:56)

Air quotes. Air quotes. Yeah, we're going with air quotes. I've checked my panel of advisors.

OG (24:03)

Last week, last week we got 2024 predictions from money manager Jeffrey Gundelach. Right? Is it pronounced Gundelach? Is it Gundalachian? Jeffrey Gundelach? This week we go to a friend of the show, Scott Galloway. NYU professor and commentator Scott Galloway. This is his prediction for 2024. And man, it might be a sad one, guys.

Joe (24:33)

I think the travel industry is going to boom.

OG (24:34)

And unfortunately, there's a very dark side to this. And I think the reason they're going

Joe (24:37)

to boom is I think people in their 20s, a lot of them have just given up on the traditional dream of owning a home. And because they're no longer saving 2, 3, 5 grand a year in hopes

OG (24:48)

of moving into a home in the

Joe (24:49)

late 20s, early 30s, they're going to be. They're going to have more disposable income and they're going to try to spend it on travel. Is the traditional American dream of buying a home is just becomes kind of out of reach for them.

OG (24:59)

And I think the travel industry is

Joe (25:01)

going to be the unfortunate beneficiary of all this additional disposable income that traditionally has gone into saving for people's first home. 14 million homes have been formed in the last 10 years and only 11 million homes have been built. Average cost of a home Pre pandemic was 290. It's now 420.

OG (25:14)

And then you couple that with interest

Joe (25:16)

rates going from 3% to 7%. The American dream is now a hallucination for most people when it comes to homeownership. And I think people are going to spend more money on travel. Travel stocks to boom.

OG (25:26)

Travel stocks to boom in 2024. OG what do you think about that one?

Joe (25:29)

I don't have any idea. Obviously, Professor Galloway is a heck of a lot smarter than the three of us combined and multiplied by double. But I still think that even if you have an idea, if you got a thesis, maybe you don't put all of your ideas in or put all of your money into one idea. You know, if you want to put a little extra, a little sandbox money in your idea and this is, okay, fine, yeah, yeah. But maybe the rest of it should just be diversified and let it ride for 30 years.

OG (25:59)

What's interesting about this, OG so I hear this story, right, about how new home formation, not that many new Homes built cost, housing going through the roof. Interest rates, of course, not anywhere near all time. Highs not astronomical, but certainly higher than they were before. But because of the tight supply, seeing prices going up for the average person, like Scott Galloway just said, I turn immediately to the Wall Street Journal. This is what I get. This is a piece by Carol Ryan. Welcome to the neighborhood. Wall street designed it. Listen to this. Your new suburban rental has granite kitchen countertops built to withstand even the most hard wearing tenant. The neighbors next door, the exact same laundry machine. Welcome the community where every detail has been designed to keep costs down for the Wall street landlord. So Galloway's thinking this. Wall Street's thinking it too. OG they're like, guess what? A lot of people gonna rent now, so guess who they're gonna rent from. How about us? When Wall street starts saying that, I think maybe we, maybe we got something here. With homes.

Joe (26:59)

Again, way above my pay grade, but I have seen a neighborhood that's near us that is all single family houses, that's all rentals. Like it's owned by the developer. They never, they, you know, they built the.

OG (27:10)

Yeah, we have one down the street from us as well. Isn't that.

Joe (27:12)

Yeah, just built, built a whole subdivision, but it's all for rentals. None of them are for sale. All single family homes. So what the heck?

OG (27:19)

I know it is an interesting, scary trend, but definitely, I wouldn't go. Let's talk about what we can do. Don't take your money for your long term goals. Oh, gee. And just blow it on a trip to, you know, wherever, some super expensive YOLO trip. And just give up.

Joe (27:32)

Don't blow money on Rose bowl trip.

OG (27:36)

Well, if you got it. But if this was, but if this was money that was for your retirement or your home purchase or whatever. Like, don't give up on your long

Joe (27:44)

term goals and go put money back in. 401k from Rose bowl trip. Noted.

OG (27:52)

Please don't, please don't do that.

Joe (27:54)

Now you got to have the future, but you also need to be thinking about now a little bit because I don't know. Do you think that it's that big of a deal that people don't buy houses? I don't, I don't think it matters.

OG (28:03)

I don't think it's a huge deal. No.

Joe (28:04)

We rented a apartment for a while like in the middle of our 30s. It was awful. And that was what was required at the time. You know, it wasn't just is what it is.

OG (28:15)

Well, and given you don't have to

Joe (28:17)

go buy A new house.

OG (28:18)

And given the number of times we're probably going to move for a new job opportunity.

Joe (28:21)

Right?

OG (28:21)

You know, maybe that changes here. Post pandemic, as people increasingly work from home and your opportunities are online. But. But still, if you're going to change jobs seven times, investing in a house in this neighborhood, when your job might be across town, across. Halfway across the US across the world, why, why spend all that money on those huge transaction costs?

Joe (28:42)

I pay attention to the flying community on Reddit, you know, and there's a lot of private flying stuff, but there's also a lot of corporate and professional pilot stuff on there, too. People who are interested in getting into the field and people that have progressed and, you know, kind of AMA type stuff. So I like reading that stuff. And one of the overarching themes is, hey, I just got a job working for Delta out of Atlanta, but I live in Sacramento. Yeah, what do you guys think? And everybody goes, move your ass to Atlanta. You know, why do you want to have a commute? I mean, even though you get a free airline ticket, it's awful, you know, like, you don't want to have a commute that's a half hour, let alone a day and a half, you know, because you got to fly from, you know, wherever to Atlanta. It's silly that pilots would consider that. You would never do that. Right? You would just. If you got a job and it's in Philadelphia, you're going to move closer to your job, so.

OG (29:33)

Well, especially not three time zones away.

Joe (29:36)

Holy wow. Yeah. So I don't see the big issue with. Because people still need to live. You know what I mean?

OG (29:44)

Like, yes.

Joe (29:44)

It's not like everybody's just going to go live in a yurt or something. It's like they still need houses, and it's just, who owns it? Who cares who owns it? Owning a house is not all it's cracked up to be. There's a lot of maintenance and insurance and all that other sort of stuff that you have to deal with. I'll tell a story a little bit later about some fun we've had in the last week about house maintenance and just how much of a pain in the butt it is versus picking up the phone and going, yeah, that thing that you have that's here, it doesn't work, come fix it. I mean, there's some power in that,

OG (30:15)

too, you know, We've now heard from Jeffrey Gundelach, we've heard from Scott Galloway, a couple. Couple of smart dudes, maybe the smartest dude of all is a guy named Real Dan Yang on Tick Tock. It's a special Tick Tock twofer to help kick off the new year. This is real Dan yang's predictions for 2024. How about these guys?

Joe (30:36)

Here's where I think we'll be in in 2024. First up, we have just sort of wandering around, you know, going from point A to point B, maybe a point C even. I think that'll be big. Second up, we have drinking 12, 13 beers. I think people are going to really enjoy doing that. I think having 13 beers is going to. It's going to be a big year for that. Third, we have kind of just looking at stuff. You'll see a lot of people just looking, looking around, looking at stuff. Things even. I think that's going to be a trend you see a lot of in 2024.

Doug (31:08)

Things even.

Joe (31:09)

And finally, I think the big trend in 2024 will be just sort of sitting around, you know, posting up, probably with bad posture, a lot of craning your neck. I think that's going to be a big year for that. So those are my predictions.

Doug (31:22)

I am so far ahead of the trend line here.

OG (31:25)

Once again, I think Dan nailed it. I think Dan's got it. Coming up next, our mentor today is the amazing even things she might do more than just look at stuff. She's going to tell us about a car accident she had in 2018, which really changed her life. She was in a situation where rescue workers couldn't imagine any scenario where she came out alive. But not only did she come out alive, she came out transformed. And you know what? Hopefully we can learn from her today that it's so much better to not just maybe sit around and look at stuff. Maybe we need to get moving, post up on those goals. Post up. Yeah. Judd Drummond mentoring us in just a minute. But while she's getting situated as she comes down the stairs, Doug, you've got today's trivia.

Doug (32:16)

Sure do, Joe. Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. On Today's Date In 18, 1935, the United States achieved something it has never done since. It was completely debt free for that day and that day only. Which means they've only got me beat by a day. I'm gonna round it down and call it a tie. Today, the national debt is over $33 trillion. Imagine the airline points on their credit card. Let's see, like on American Express, that math would be. Or, oh, even better. I know that $33 trillion equals at least three flights using Capital One's program. Cha Ching About a third of our debt is owed to foreign countries, with Japan holding the highest percentage among them at $1.3 trillion. And here I've been stressing out over owing Joe's mom 100 bucks. Imagine owing someone a trillion dollars. At some point you're just better off faking your own death and going into the witness protection program. Can you just sign up for that? No, seriously, can you just sign up for that? Asking for a friend Anywho, today's trivia question is. On the one and only day the US has been completely out of debt, who was the president? I'll be back right after I come up with an alias and a cool backstory for myself.

OG (33:37)

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These are the versatile pieces that make a wardrobe actually work season after season. Quince works directly with top factories and cuts out the middlemen. You're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail stores, just quality clothing. Cashmere is 100% Mongolian. Same stuff luxury brands use. The Pima cotton is long staple, which means it stays soft. It doesn't pill up. The European jersey linens. Breathable, lightweight, everything is built hold up to regular wearable and still look good. Their clothing's rated four and a half and five stars by thousands of people wearing it every day and they only partner with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. This sweater has become my go to and these pants? Absolutely the same. Right now go to quince.comsb and you're going to get free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it. And you will love it. Now available in Canada too. 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Doug (40:09)

Hey there Stackers. I'm retiring professional hockey player and a guy named Rodrigo Guacamole, Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, who put my name in the script. Lisa, you blew my cover. I had a whole new life planned out for myself already. I was gonna move to Canada, work as a hockey coach, maybe do a little Tim Hortons as my side gig. Maybe I'd learned to track moose and even become a wildlife expert. I could even have my own TV show one day where I teach people survival skills. If only someone had it blown my cover. Lisa, Today's trivia question is on the one and only day the US has been completely out of debt, who was the president? The answer immortalized on the $20 bill after ironically vehemently opposing the use of paper money during his lifetime, Andrew Jackson was the President. On that one and only day the United States had no debt. Sounds like he was so happy to finally get us out of debt that he celebrated by going on a spending spree on Alibaba. And now, here to teach you how to take on the seemingly insurmountable to achieve your financial goals, it's our mentor, Jen Drummond,

OG (41:30)

and I'm super happy she's joining Us at mom's basement. Our mentor today is the Jen Drummond. How are you?

Jen Drummond (41:37)

Good day. Good day. Thanks for having me.

OG (41:40)

I'm so happy you're here with us, teaching us to be resilient about your goals. But I just want to dig right in, Jen, to your story. It's 2018. How did your life change in 2018?

Jen Drummond (41:52)

Yeah. Well, let's start quick on the standpoint of. I read this book called the Surrender Experiment. And for two months, I journaled the word surrender because I thought it was waving your flag and a sign of weakness. And then all of a sudden, I realized, like, actually, it's a sign of strength and how much power there is in surrender. Fast forward. I get into a car accident on December 18th of 2018. I watch my car hit a semi, and the first thing that comes to my mind is the only way I'm going to survive this accident is if I surrender.

OG (42:24)

Wow.

Jen Drummond (42:24)

So I literally put my hand on the steering wheel, put my head on the headrest, and I just try to stay as relaxed as possible. And I count through the flips. I'm going end over end. And I'm like, I'm going to flip once, I'm going to flip twice. I'm going to flip three times. And then I'm like, okay, I'm out of energy now. I'm going to start doing these sideways rolls. So I started doing sideways rolls, about 10 of them, and then ended up upside down in the median. It was crazy.

OG (42:50)

How did this even start? Was it an ice. You're in Utah, right?

Jen Drummond (42:53)

Yeah, I'm in Utah. It was my, like, my fault at some level. Maybe the driver's, I don't know. No one was at fault for the accident, to be honest. Yeah, I was coming up a hill. I was paying attention to the reservoir. I had the green light, so I kept my speed. A semi pulling a trailer must have hit the red light. So they were under the speed limit. Probably only going 30 miles an hour on a highway. And so then all of a sudden, I get see him. I go get into the left lane, and there was something on the side of the road. So his second trailer bumps out a little bit, and it clips the passenger side of my. My car, and I go end over end, sideways, sideways. And when the police got to the accident, they said, there's no way there's a human alive.

OG (43:36)

Yeah, Right.

Jen Drummond (43:37)

But I was alive. And I got a phone call from that police station a few weeks later saying, listen, we have rebuilt that accident every way possible. We cannot Build a scenario where you live, let alone walk away. We just want you to know. And they're like, buy that car again, because that's why you're alive. And they said, you know, just be great at every moment. Since that moment has been such a gift. Like, even the yucky moments, I'm like, hey, at least I'm here to have this experience. Because my other choice was never to have whatever I'm experiencing right now.

OG (44:13)

I think it takes a certain person then to think, okay, I'm going to go from I'm barely alive to go to climates where I could probably die again many, many, many times over. Like, where did the obsession begin with climbing some of the biggest peaks on Earth?

Jen Drummond (44:30)

Yeah. You know, so I got into this horrific car accident and survive. My good girlfriend goes running on a trail about three weeks after my accident, asked me to go with her. I said I couldn't. That day, it's wet out, she slips, she hits her head, and she never comes home. And so I'm metabolizing these two extreme events, and the only thing that can make sense to me is I don't get to choose when I die, but I sure get to choose how I live. If I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die living. Like, I'm not gonna die eating bon bons, watching a television show, or walking down the street. Like, I want my death to be epic, I guess, but I just truly fe. I don't get to choose when I die, but I do get to choose how I live. And it's time to start choosing to live.

OG (45:18)

It sounds like your kids were completely on board with this. In fact, I think the story goes your son was the one that challenged you to take on Everest. Is that true?

Jen Drummond (45:27)

Yeah. So I'm training for a mountain named Ama de Blomm, and my son hears it as I'm a dumb blonde. And so one day he's angry and he's like, mom, if we do hard things, why are you climbing a mountain called I'm a dumb blonde instead of a real mountain, like Mount Everest? And I looked at that little, you know, and I'm like, are you kidding me right now? I'm a de Blam, honey, not I'm a dumb blonde, but thank you. And we looked at Everest, and then he went to bed, and I was still looking at Everest. And I thought, hey, if this kid thinks Everest is the hardest mountain in the whole world, I'm going to climb it, and I'm going to show him that whatever our Everest is, we're capable of summiting. And so I call a coach. He's like, yeah, I can get you ready. He sends me a book about becoming an uphill athlete. And in the front is a lady who got a Guinness world record. I was homeschooling at the time because Covid was happening, and I wasn't feeling good about myself. And I told the coach, like, if I got a Guinness world record, my kids would think I'm cool. I wish I would have known about that one, because that's something I could have done. And the coach is like, oh, I'll think of something. Don't worry. I'm like, okay, fine. He calls me back a few weeks later, and he's like, jen, I've got the perfect world record for you, because I think you should be the first female to climb the seven second summits. And that sounded like a tongue twister. I didn't even know what he was talking about, right? I'm like, what? And so then he goes on to explain it. He's like, they're harder than the first seven. It's only been done by one male. You'd be the first woman. And think about it. Seven continents, seven mountains, seven children. Sounds like a jackpot. And I thought it did. And I got one of those whole body yeses, which still makes no sense because I hadn't slept in a tent before. Okay, and here I'm gonna go climb, like, the second highest summit on every mountain of every continent. Like, what am I doing?

OG (47:20)

I just can't imagine the training. And I don't want to spend really almost any time on Everest. But, you know, a lot of us on social media, we've seen pictures from this year's Everest season of just these lines of people, right? And some dangerous areas. On Evans, Everest, was it that packed when you went? No. No.

Jen Drummond (47:37)

So we waited, right? Like a lot of people that go early, if you wait, you gamble, maybe the weather window will open again and you won't get up to the top. We waited because we didn't. I'm like, I don't want to do Disney World up Everest. That just doesn't feel right. And so we summited on one of the last days, and there's 14 people that summited the day that we summited. So it was beautiful. You had the whole mountain to yourself. And we. We played the gamble and won.

OG (48:03)

You talk about the 7 second summit, which is a tongue twister. These are absolutely. When you said they're harder than the first seven, they're harder for two Reasons number one is many of these summits that we'll touch on a couple of them for our stackers here. They're harder technically. But also you mentioned, Jen, you've got a lot less support at these mountains because they're not the. They're. They don't get the fanfare of the first mountain.

Jen Drummond (48:26)

Right. Which is kind of fun, to be honest with you, because it is authentic climbing. When you climb Everest, you're on a fixed rope. So you walk up and you click onto the rope. And you click onto the rope. Somebody else set it up, made sure it was safe. When I'm climbing in Antarctica or Russia or in Canada, I'm tied to my guide. So my guide and I are tied to each other. So if either one of us makes a mistake, we're pulling the other one down with us and we have to self arrest to keep both of us safe and on the side of the mountain, not off the edge. So it's just a different game that you're playing entirely.

OG (49:01)

There's a great comedian. I don't know if you've ever heard of this guy, Nate Bergazzi. He just hosted, he just hosted Saturday Night Live. Recently you climbed Mount Logan, the second tallest mountain in North America. But let's listen to Nate talking about the third tallest mountain. This is his appearance on the Tonight Show.

Joe (49:19)

I was in Seattle recently, and if

OG (49:22)

you ever go to Seattle, they have a.

Joe (49:24)

Mount Rainier is about an hour away. It's the third biggest mountain in America. It's a good one to go to. I don't know who number one or number two is, but maybe one day it'll be number one. You know, do mountains keep growing? I don't know. That's stuff that I don't know. But it's a good time to see.

OG (49:41)

Doesn't have the attitude of a one or two. So I think your, your mountains definitely had a little bit of an attitude. K2, which we'll get to in a second, had a hell of an attitude. But let's talk just briefly about Mount Logan. What was the biggest challenge you found climbing Mount Logan?

Jen Drummond (49:57)

Oh, my gosh. Like, if I knew what I was getting into climbing Mount Logan, I'd be like, never mind. We're gonna find the seven nicest beaches in the world and call that a record. What happens when you climb Mount Logan is that it's so far that you put skins on skis and you actually ski up large sections of it and you have to carry all of your gear on your back or in A sled. Okay. And it's windy on Mount Logan. You're exposed. We get there, we set up a tent, and then we dig a hole to put our gear in so it doesn't blow away. And then the cubes that we pull out of the hole, we build an igloo around our tent because we're afraid the tent's going to rip in the wind. And there's five camps that you have to establish, every single one of them. You have to build an igloo around your tent because you don't want the tent to rip. And then you have to bury your gear and you have to go. I mean, it is just bananas. I'm so sick of building igloos. I'm like, I'm not in kindergarten. This isn't fun. I don't know who convinced us that it was, but this is crazy.

OG (51:00)

One of your takeaways from early in your project here, bulletproof. And we'll get to actually some lessons from the book here in a second. But one of your takeaways is always safety first. Like, you're. You're worried about safety every second of the way, I gotta imagine.

Jen Drummond (51:13)

Yeah. No, you really are. And it's interesting because when you climb the mountain and I say this, and if you're listening, you own a business or you run a family or doing whatever, getting to the top is only halfway. Like, every step I take, I need to make sure I have enough energy to get all the way back home. So when I get to the summit, I have to have enough energy to get back home and anticipate that something might go wrong when I'm coming back. That might take longer than I'm expecting. So when we're building a company and we're testing out a product or something along that line and we're going forward, do you have enough energy to make it home? Because only when you're home are you still alive.

OG (51:53)

Let's transition to K2 for just a moment. How much preparation to go to a country like Pakistan, which isn't currently a country that, frankly, most Americans would probably go to, Number one going into Pakistan. Number two is it's in a remote area of Pakistan. I was going to attempt to go to base camp once, Jen, myself with a friend of mine who, frankly, changed my life because he said he had other mountains to climb and change the course of my life. But I know that we were going to fly into Islamabad and just plan it. Tell me about how long it would take you to plan just even getting to K2 and the equipment and the. Who's going to take care of your kids? Like, tell me about planning.

Jen Drummond (52:36)

Yeah, it's all of it. Right. So interesting for me is Everest was my training ground for K2 because K2 stows steep and aggressive and actually has climbing sections that you can't test gloves or gear or make sure everything fits. And then yeah, you have family at home that's taking care of kids. Nice thing is that K2's climbing season's in July, so my kids were shipped off to summer camps to have different experiences. You fly into Islamabad, then you take a flight to a town called Skardu. This flight is 45 minutes, but because there's an 8,000 meter peak in the flight path, if there's not pure sun and no clouds, the plane won't go. So the plane goes less than 50% of the time. And if that plane doesn't go, that 45 minute flight turns into a 31 hour drive with like razor sharp edges on the side of the road. And anything you can imagine that you're just like, this is real life. Like, are we sure this is where we want to go? And then you like drive to another little town and then you start a 60 mile trek into base camp. There's no tea houses, there's no little places along the way. You have to set up camp every day, take it down. You're acclimatizing because you're gaining altitude. It's just rough. I mean it is a rough trek in. It's a rough mountain. I got sick on my second attempt. Right. Like, I mean it's just all of it.

OG (54:04)

Was it two months, three months? Like how much time did it take to just, just prep for this?

Jen Drummond (54:09)

So I'm lucky. I do a lot of acclimatizing at home. There's some technology that you can purchase that allows you to convert your bed into an oxygen deprivation tent. And so then your body. Yeah, like, lucky me, huh? Just want to have a sleepover.

OG (54:24)

So I've also seen those masks. Have you hiked? Do you hike with those masks too?

Jen Drummond (54:29)

I train with the masks or train with the masks.

OG (54:31)

Yeah.

Jen Drummond (54:31)

So then that allows me to bop into base camp as fast as I can go. So that cuts out time. So I was gone for both expeditions to K2 because it took me two attempts, no longer than four weeks, but most people are eight weeks.

OG (54:45)

Wow.

Jen Drummond (54:46)

Yeah.

OG (54:47)

When you attempted it the first time, what happened? What went wrong? And then how did you change the plan on the second attempt to make summiting happen?

Jen Drummond (54:59)

Yeah. So the first time, there was not a lot of teams that climbed in 20, 21 because Covid ran through Everest base camp. So then Pakistan said, hey, we're not going to do this. So they limited the number of teams there. I joined another team then that was local. We were on the mountain. I was actually a day ahead of everybody because there wasn't enough campsites on the mountain for everybody to sleep. So I'm like, oh, I'll go a day ahead, and we'll catch up to each other once there's more space on the mountain. And I got a radio call. And when you get a radio call, you have 15 minutes to answer it before you call back down. I get another call and another call. I get four calls within five minutes. So then your brain's running. Something's wrong. I hand the radio to the porters. The porters are talking Pakistani. I'm straining as if I can understand what they're saying. They finally hand the radio over to me, and something was wrong. One of my teammates was caught in an avalanche. Another one was injured in that avalanche, and another one was stuck until the weather would get colder so that if a helicopter came in to rescue him, the blades wouldn't trigger another avalanche. So here I'm on the mountain. I just lost one of my dear friends. Another one's hurt. We get this news. I'm trying to metabolize it and understand, how did this happen? What do we do? Another team comes up and they said, hey, Jen, we're going up the mountain. Do you want to join us? And I was kind of dumbfounded. I'm like, do I want to join you? What are you talking about? My teammate just died. I'm not joining you. Like, I'm going to put people over peaks. Like, I'm going down to take care of my team. Thank you. The mountain will always be here. So we went down, we buried a human. We helped another one get rescued. Then we started the trek out. I came back to the States. I didn't come home right away. My kids weren't back from camp yet. So I called the nanny that was kind of running the show if something went wrong and said, hey, I need a little bit of time. And I just started metabolizing everything that was going on. I called a grump dump. I got everything out that didn't go well. And I started looking at it and analyzing what was the same thing manifesting different ways because I knew I had to go back. When I went back, I picked a different team that had different safety precautions, different experiences. But I wasn't excited about going back, Right. Like, I had PTSD of what happened the year before. Lucky for me, there was a phone call that I took about three weeks before it was time to leave. And it was an individual that was training to climb K2 that didn't have the resources to make it happen. I'm like, oh, I'm here. There's tons of gear in the US I'll bring stuff over. Happy to help. And I tell you, when you don't want to do something, find something bigger than you that gets you motivated to go do it, because then it makes it easier. So I go back to K2 in 2022. I bring gear for this person that's on my team. I get sick. I got sick. I got sneezed on by a donkey. Apparently, donkeys can carry anthrax in third world countries. Who knew? It presents like giardia. So we just thought I had an intestinal, like, thing that we couldn't beat. I lost 30 pounds in that time frame. I mean, it was crazy. It was time to go climb the mountain. I'm so glad I was so sick because I think it kept me from thinking about my friend who had the tragedy the year before. I was just trying to get to the top. I got to the top. There's a third American female to summit K2. And 30 minutes later, the first Pakistani female stood on top of her country's prized peak because I helped sponsor her to make it possible. And so, like, I was excited for two seconds, but I was more excited about what that provided for her, for Muslim women around the world, and just that story in general. And I came home so proud because I think a lot of times failure happens in our lives or in our story, and it's a reason to give up or to not continue. And that story is a speed dial story for me realizing, no, the universe is using me for more. Like, I need to continue. I just don't see the full story way is the universe going to use me to make more possible for others? And that was that scenario.

OG (59:06)

You have an analogy from Antarctica, and, oh, man, your trip to Antarctica is. I was reading your story on Antarctica. My stomach's in a complete pit, Jen. Just. I'm like, holy cow. I mean, they drop you off in the middle of nowhere. This is the second biggest peak. So literally nobody goes there. The information is sketchy. Nobody. You know, it's. It's. You're relying on just your. Your wits. But tell me about blue ice And I love this for all of our stackers, Jen, because life throws blue ice at us all the time. Right. 2024 is going to throw a bunch of blue ice in our way and we got to find our way around it. But if you could tell everybody what blue ice is and how you change the game plan when you encountered this would be won.

Jen Drummond (59:47)

Yeah. Okay. So when you're climbing in Antarctica, for example, we used Mount Vincent, which is the highest point to climb first to acclimatize for Mount Tyre, which is the second highest point we get there. We know from previous records, like, I think we were the 15th to 20th people at the summit. My team was five. So we don't have a lot of records like you said. We know from previous records that it takes 24 to 36 hours to reach the peak and get back. So we're planning on this and we're like, okay, well what's the, you know, we're going up the mountain and we're doing great. Like, timing's working out, everything's going well, we're feeling really confident. And then we hit blue ice. And the blue ice is ice that doesn't have oxygen in it. It's this solid, hard brick that when you throw an ice axe at it, it gets rejected back because there's nothing in the ice that's not pure. So it just doesn't have a place to grab. And we're on 60 foot ropes essentially. And so you climb one at a time. So one person climbs to get to the top, they lower the rope and then you're the next person to climb. When you climb blue ice, like they put me last because I was the least qualified. Thank God you have to be so precise. Like, we lost speed, we lost momentum. Every single swing, every single kick into that ice counted because if you hit it wrong, you were sliding down till that rope caught you and then you had to start over again. And so that section, like there's blue ice in our pursuits and that's a chance to slow down, change the speed, get very deliberate, be very calculated and just do the motion, get through it and understand that the whole mountain isn't blue ice. There's never been a whole mountain that's blue ice. Unless you're climbing a waterfall. But then even that's not blue ice, that's regular ice. We got through it. And I'm the second female to climb that mountain. And I was, I felt like my mom and grandma were with me that entire time saying like, come on, girl, you're doing this for all of us ladies, let's make it happen. It was awesome.

OG (61:54)

That's fabulous having that, just that voice in your ear, you know, the people cheering for you. But I think there's a huge lesson there, because when I look back just on my career, Jen, I just think about. Everybody expects it to be this, you know, smooth up past. Like, I can take that sled like you were talking about on Mount Logan, just sled up. But, you know, this hill of my career. But it always is blue ice followed by blue ocean, followed by blue ice, blue ocean. Like, it's the stair step thing. It's never straight ahead.

Jen Drummond (62:22)

It isn't. And it's honestly, like, that's the story you remember. The story you remember is the blue ice section. Like, the smooth sailing, making progress. Those aren't that. You don't tell stories from that section of your life. You tell stories from the struggle.

OG (62:38)

I want to go over some of your takeaways here. Number one, and these are great stackers for your 20, 24. Number one, establish clear goals and milestones. Clearly, when you're looking at all seven of these peaks, Jen, clear goals and milestones had to be instrumental to everything you did.

Jen Drummond (62:54)

Yeah, definitely. Well, and I learned it quick on because when you climb a volcano, which is Ojos del Salado, the second highest point in South America, it's a volcano. It's like climbing an anthill. There's no visual reference that you're making any kind of progress for hours. And it's exhausting. And, like, it's amazing how much that can suck your momentum. Where you climb a mountain like Everest, that has sections, you know, you have the ice fall, you have the lot say face, you have the balcony, you have these different pieces. Just having those little milestones along the way that give you momentum of saying, hey, I made it here. We're making progress. Let's continue. It's really important when you're setting goals to keep that excitement about them.

OG (63:33)

I love this idea you present of looking back, because I feel like too many people look at the horizon and the horizon always moves anyway. I mean, if it's not a mountain, if it's just going, like, anytime we reach a goal, we just. What's in it? What's the next thing? Like, looking back shows you that you actually made your way up the mountain.

Jen Drummond (63:49)

Yeah. And here's the thing. Like, I climbed Everest. I was on the top of that mountain for 10 minutes. I trained 12, 38 hours for 10 minutes on the top of that mountain. And like, if that's not a lesson and enjoying the journey. I don't know what is.

OG (64:06)

Well, a second is learn from others experiences, which I have to tell you, I had trouble with this when I was young. And for our younger stackers, I wanted to reinvent the wheel, Jen. And if I would have spent more time learning from others who went before me, man, I would have gotten there faster, definitely.

Jen Drummond (64:22)

And it just makes it more possible. I mean, when I climbed Everest, when I first looked at Everest, I didn't even know it was a possibility. I didn't know anybody that had climbed it. I called the coach that did. I went out to lunch with some people that did. They spilled ketchup on their shirt. All of a sudden, it, like, humanized my ability to climb Everest. And I'm like, okay, we're good. So then when I called mom to say, hey, I'm gonna go climb Everest, I had the confidence that I was gonna climb Everest. And she could hear it in my voice and wouldn't, Wouldn't battle me.

OG (64:50)

We talked last week to Eric Qualman about focus. And one of your big points here is to minimize distractions. What did you do along the way to make sure that you didn't get distracted?

Jen Drummond (65:03)

Yeah, you just, you. You book it in, right? So, like, if friends wanted to go out and hang out with me, they'd have to come do a workout with me. They're like, oh, if you want to go with Jen, you're going on a hike. Like, if you want to see Jen or whatever. Or like, if Jen's going to go to a soccer game, she's going to bring a 12 inch step and a backpack full of water bottles because she's going to turn that into a workout as well as a soccer game. So there's only so many hours in a day. I decided that I was going to be an athlete, a mom, and a business owner. And so everything had to fall under those categories. And then anything else was bundled.

OG (65:38)

You've got a lot of great lessons here, but I want to go to the last one. Embrace the moment. Embrace. I want to talk about one moment. Jen, it's June 1st, 2023. You become the first woman to scale all the seven second summits. I just can't imagine you taking those last three. I can't imagine you taking those last 3 steps, but I can't get inside you and imagine what you felt. Share with us how you felt those last final steps of this amazing journey.

Jen Drummond (66:05)

Gosh, I still get goosebumps. Like, I still get them. I'M so grateful. So you see the summit, right? And you're these steps away and you just become more quiet and more intention and more purposeful with each step. And then you get to the top and you take this deep breath in and everything disappears. Sound, sky, distance, like separation between the earth, the sun, the moon, me, all of it. Like, you're everything in one moment. You're the feeling of awe. And then you have to breathe out. And you breathe in and you breathe out and everything starts to come back to the world and you start separating and you stand there and you realize how magical this life is. I remember taking my soul, like, out of my body and throwing it to the world and saying, I can't wait to find you next. Like, where is that going to be? Because it's truly in these goals that we set for ourselves that we get to have these moments of really living. And that's where it's at.

OG (67:10)

I think it's a great mantra for 2024. I do have one more question, because this is a money show, is you have had a long career in the financial services industry. You've. You've run a successful financial company. You know the difference in this arena between good help and bad help, right? And you had some great help. Like your coach was great help. Along the way, you talked about how in Pakistan you didn't trust your porters. That's a whole different story. Tell me about the importance of the help around you to the success of this journey.

Jen Drummond (67:44)

Big mountains take big teams. So if you set a big goal for yourself, it's going to take a big team to get to the top. You can't do it all yourself. Why do you have Sherpa? Why do you have support? Why do you have these people in our lives? It's because they're part of our story to have that success. When you don't have a strong person that you can rely on, you're carrying all that weight for that person and yourself, and you're just not going to get as far. So the team matters probably even more so than you as the individual.

OG (68:13)

How often did you have to fire bad help?

Jen Drummond (68:15)

Oh, you have to become expert at it. And it's my least favorite thing to do. Yeah, I mean, you. I mean, it is. Seriously. And I had to use the lens of my son. Would I want this person watching my son or climbing with my son or taking care of my son? And if I couldn't say yes, then I wasn't allowed to risk my life with that person either.

OG (68:36)

There it's. It's called Break Proof seven strategies to build resilience and achieve your life goals. And I believe it's available everywhere, right?

Jen Drummond (68:45)

It is. It is. It is. Buy it. Send me a message, let me know what you love.

OG (68:50)

Awesome. And we'll also link to your website Jen drummond.com it was spelled with two ns. Jen, thank you so much for being our mentor today and helping us get those tough goals. I really appreciate it.

Jen Drummond (69:00)

Thank you. Have a great day.

OG (69:03)

I'm Liz, the chief mom officer and when I'm not busy being the breadwinner

Jen Drummond (69:06)

of my family of five, I'm stacking Benjamin's.

OG (69:10)

Big thanks to Jen Drummond for joining us. Hey guys, let's throw out the lifeline to stacker in need, somebody climbing Money Mountain. If you'd like us to help you climb Money Mountain, head to stacking benjamin.com voicemail and not only will OG answer your question, but we'll also throw in some swag for being brave. Stacky benjamins.com voicemail Today we're going to throw out the lifeline to a stacker partway around the world. Christian, how are you?

Joe (69:41)

Hey Joe and Og calling in from Germany and would love to hear your thoughts on a real estate matter. A couple years ago I bought two rental properties, little condos with a 0% down. Of course not because I chose to,

OG (69:57)

it's just because I had no money

Joe (69:59)

at 25 years old. My question now is how risky is the situation? How can I reduce my risk without going down the full Dave Ramsey rabbit hole of paying everything off and almost not building any retirement on the side? What do you think is a good savings rate to keep up before throwing money at the mortgages?

OG (70:22)

I'm now 34 years old and would

Joe (70:24)

love to hear from you guys. Thank you for your time and a big fat kiss.

Jen Drummond (70:31)

Wow.

Doug (70:33)

What just happened?

OG (70:36)

That ended a little differently than I expected. I'll take it. I would say that Christians got down arouse in the other person in eager desire. I think he has that downs blowing a kiss all the way.

Doug (70:49)

I feel like we just have to just answer his question. OG, just answer the question.

Joe (70:53)

So 34 now was 25. I don't know anything about mortgages in Germany, but let's just assume they're 30 years like they are in America. Who knows, maybe they're 50. So you're 10 years basically 10 years into the debt repayment and then you also have the appreciation of the properties over the past 10 year ish period. And I'm guessing they must Cash flow.

OG (71:18)

Okay.

Joe (71:18)

Otherwise you might have sold them or thrown them back. So my question would be is what are you doing with the cash flow that comes from the properties? If it's just breaking even, then no harm, no foul, right? Because you've probably established a little bit of a gap of equity between paying it down, the market appreciation, if there's been any. So if you feel like selling them, you're not out any money. Basically, if they're cash flowing a little bit of extra cash, then maybe you're using some of that extra cash to fund your retirement or to save for retirement or use for spending or whatever you could, if you wanted to, just experiment with accelerating a little bit of additional principal payment. One of the things that I found really interesting was the difference between the minimum payment and paying something off in 15 years or 17 years or 20 years. The payment isn't that big of a difference. A few hundred dollars, Few hundred euros. Deutsche marks. I don't think they use those anymore.

OG (72:18)

Francs.

Joe (72:19)

They definitely don't use francs in Germany,

OG (72:20)

but they eat francs.

Joe (72:21)

Some sort of weird money that involves lots of coins and very few dollar paper bills.

OG (72:26)

Monopoly money.

Joe (72:27)

Yes. It's colored. It's not green anyways, so I would say. Isn't that true? It's got different colors on it. I mean, how do you know it's real? It's too complicated.

Doug (72:38)

It's like a comic book. They're built.

OG (72:39)

That's why I love going to Europe. Everything's like, free. I just, I'm like, how many of these do you need?

Joe (72:44)

Exactly.

Doug (72:44)

Like making it rain in the deli.

OG (72:47)

Like, it's weird because I just, I show them all the money. I'm like, what does it take? And they generally take all of it. So it's wild.

Joe (72:52)

They're like, that's the exact amount, correct? Yes.

OG (72:55)

How did you nail it?

Joe (72:56)

Correct, sir.

OG (72:56)

I'm like, not my first rodeo, buddy.

Joe (72:59)

It's not my first rodeo. Exactly. Anyways, so if you're thinking, hey, I want to pay this off a little faster, then throw a little extra cash at it, you'd be surprised at how fast a little bit of extra principal payments will accelerate that pay down. I've had this theory for a while that I don't like paying the bank more than I like paying myself. So on our mortgages, even the ones that are not in our favor, the 2 percenters, as we go through the year, I look at how much interest I've paid and I make sure that we pay as much in principle as in interest. That's just kind of a personal yardstick for me that I can just use to make sure that we're more aggressively paying it off. But with a quick calculation, you can see how fast you can pay it off by adding just a few extra dollars above and beyond your current payment. And if you've got any sort of extra cash flow in the property or at the next rent increase, just use that or use just kind of build in a strategy for maybe not this year, but the next time I raise rent, I will take that extra raise and allocate 50% of it to extra principal. I don't think that you have to blow the whole thing up and go all Dave Ramsey. But if it bothers you and it causes some sleepless nights, then I don't know why you wouldn't just kind of rearrange it a little bit.

OG (74:19)

I think there's two factors here. Oh, gee. That we need to consider. First, one is if it's. You said you don't know how long the mortgage is, is also if it's adjustable or not. Right. Because if that mortgage is going to adjust, I'm going to adjust my strategy while that interest rate is low to maybe get as much toward paying it down as I can before the interest rate pops up.

Joe (74:38)

Yeah, I mean, obviously all those are characteristics there that we got to be concerned with. But I think the first thing that I want to know is what's your margin of safety right now? How much have you paid down? How much is it worth? Where are you? And if it's not a comfortable enough number, put together a plan to how can I widen that gap so that if anything happens or if there's market decline or I want to sell the properties or whatever, you've got some flexibility in there to. To withstand some fluctuation.

OG (75:05)

I think there's also some room on the other end, which is when he talks about savings rate and saving toward financial independence. What does that cost like? I'd want to know what that cost as well and maybe put that away separately before I even get into this, don't I? I mean, I think I want to just put away enough to make sure I get that minimum financial independence away and then work this plan.

Joe (75:26)

Yeah. 100.

Doug (75:27)

Joe, I know times are tough. Stacking Benjamins. What kind of swag are we giving out now? Is it like one of those little pencil grippers you use in elementary school? It says Stacking Benjamin's on it. What do we got going out to our callers now?

OG (75:39)

It is still the T Shirt we still have the greatest money show on earth shirt.

Doug (75:44)

You told me we ran out of those and we couldn't afford to get more.

OG (75:46)

Well, we can't have any here because they're now limited edition. Now that obviously things have changed around the lifeline. So stackybenjamins.com voicemail gets you one of these limited edition shirts and please come and get them. You've got limited time on this edition of the shirt. Hey, that's gonna almost do it for today's show. But if you're not here for just one question, you really have a question about your entire financial situation. You know what? OG and his team are taking clients. So head to stacking benjamin.com OG that's the calendar for OG and his team so that you can see how his team will help you make better financial decisions in 2024 and maybe get that plan moving not just on the mortgage, but more. Oh, gee, does that come with a. With a big kiss? Would people go to stacking benjamin.com OG no.

Joe (76:38)

For sure. Maybe.

OG (76:41)

Sure. Sure. Probably not. Stacking benjamin.com OG all right, time to transition over to the back porch, man. We've got some. We got some fun stuff. First of all, Doug, this joke competition. We're doing the joke off. We've got some.

Doug (76:55)

We've got to hear that and not laugh.

OG (76:57)

We got some great jokes for the joke off.

Doug (76:59)

The joke.

OG (77:00)

These math jokes. I was a little concerned, though. Kathy posted a fantastic math joke in the basement Facebook group. What are you doing? We're giving away prizes for this and we only have a few spots left. We're gonna wrap up talking about this, I think this week, get this thing going here hopefully this week so that we can in two weeks start having the competition here. But kind of last call this week, guys, for the joke off. Don't you think, Doug?

Doug (77:26)

Yeah.

OG (77:26)

Gotta get here soon. Email me, Joe. Stackybenjamins.com just put joke off in the. In the subject line and then. And then tell your joke.

Doug (77:36)

Hope your spouse doesn't see it as you're sending it.

OG (77:38)

I did have. I have had some that I think people need to remember that this is a family show. I got a fantastic one from Mark today. By fantastic, I mean freaking horrible

Jen Drummond (77:51)

and

OG (77:52)

definitely not a joke that we could use. So, Mark, Mark, send in. Send me in another one. Send me in something we can use. All right. And we. We've only got a few spots left, but really what I want to do, guys, is I'd love to hear more about. Oh, gee, your Trip to Pasadena.

Joe (78:08)

Oh, this little trip right here. That little trip.

Doug (78:33)

Oh, you went to a John Philip Sousa convention.

OG (78:36)

It's weird. Wow.

Doug (78:38)

I didn't know you were into that.

Joe (78:39)

OG so we went to California, went to the Rose bowl, which was pretty awesome, all said and done. I mean, we were gone for an entire week as a family. We went to Michigan to see everybody for Christmas, had a couple days, flew across the country with the kids, surprised them the next morning, getting them up and saying, oh, I know we just got to la, but we have something to do. We're going to go on an adventure. Like, dad, we just got here. We just want to sleep. It's like, nope, it's adventure time. We're in California. We're going on an adventure. We're going on a California adventure. And Caroline was the one that got it. She goes, we're going to California Adventure.

OG (79:15)

Like, we're going to go, oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Joe (79:17)

So we got there and their top seven rides were all down inexplicably. We eventually did all the rides. So we did the Lightning McQueen ride. Basically, it's you and you're kind of trying to get to the town. Yeah. And you get pulled over by the cars.

OG (79:31)

Land ride that everybody, like, wants to ride that ride.

Joe (79:33)

Yeah. It's super cool. So you get pulled over, you go cow tip in all this stuff. And then finally at the end, you do a race. So the last little bit of it is a race with another. With the other car that started. So that was a cool ride. We did a. You have to do a fast pass for that. What if it's called Genie? Plus we did the Incredicoaster, which is their best coaster there.

OG (79:51)

Yeah, yeah.

Joe (79:52)

It's all about the Incredibles. So we did that twice. We did the Guardians of Galaxy ride, which is very, very much like Tower of Terror.

OG (79:59)

Yes.

Joe (79:59)

But way smoother than Tower of Terror. Caroline opted out. So did Lissa. She was like, I don't like these types of rides and all this stuff. It was very smooth. It's very cool. It's not scary. You know, you go up and down like Tower Terror, but it's a lot smoother than that. So, I mean, the scariest part is, like, walking through the whole thing to get in line because they're telling this whole story and, you know, like, Tower Terror is.

OG (80:22)

Yeah.

Joe (80:22)

And it's all dark and dingy and there's noises and kind of freaked out. And you just get on the ride.

OG (80:27)

I would think that week og the park's packed. I would think the park could be just insanely packed.

Joe (80:31)

Well, we went. It was raining like hell on the drive there, so we were hoping that it wouldn't be so busy. It was, it was pretty busy. But in California Adventure is incredible small. And I understand Disneyland on the other side is also incredibly small relative to what you're used to. So we only had a park pass for the California Adventure. We didn't go to the other side. Either way. It was kind of an all day thing. We got there at, I don't know, 9 o' clock in the morning. We left about at 4 after eating a little bit and buying some ice creams and whatnot. It was, okay, cool, we're good. Time to go. So we did that. The 31st was kind of a low key day for us. So we were there. Disneyland on the 30th and then the 31st kind of laid low because we had reveille at 4:20am on January 1st. Turns out they're a big fan of fireworks on New Year's Day in Los Angeles. That also is really super awesome. At 3, 2, 1, 12am Whatever time they decide to do it, you were

OG (81:31)

awake whether you wanted to be or not.

Joe (81:33)

Yeah. Well, what's funny is that we had this big plan of watching the ball drop in New York. We're like, oh, we'll just watch it on TV and be like, oh, happy new year. It's 9 o', clock, let's go to bed. But they delay the telecast in la, so in Texas you can watch it and it's an hour ahead, right? And you watch the ball drop. It's 11, you can go to bed like a normal person in la. They delay it. So we're watching. I go, why does it say three hours to go? It's like 18 minutes. What are they talking about? So we finally figured out that we were like, we're not going to watch this whole thing. So we founded a YouTube stream, watched it at 9, I was asleep by 9:10, which is par for the course. Got a great night's sleep, got up at 4:30 downstairs on the bus. And so they take you to the Rose Parade right at the beginning of the Rose Parade. Like the. Literally the street where they're all lining up, but they've got these passes where they can drive the buses right to the road. So our walk from the bus to our seat was a block and a half. Maybe a block and a half? More like a block. We got to the Rose Parade maybe around quarter to 6, 6am Something like that. And the tour guide was like, just stay here. There's no need to go out there and sit in the cold. They had a movie going on the bus. They're like, when the movie's over and then we can go. So about 7:30, 7:40, we wandered off the bus, got in our seats and they kicked it off right at 8:00'.

OG (82:54)

Clock.

Joe (82:55)

So just like you watch it on the east coast at 11 and it starts out, boom, started and off they went. So parade was really cool. Exactly two hours later, you could tell they were running way behind schedule because they had the final two floats and a couple of bands. So it was like a couple of bands, the final two floats, and then the police cars and whatever that kind of wrap it up with like four minutes to go. The parade director's like shoving all the band people out of the way so the last two floats could go by with the celebrities on it. The final two floats before the buzzer end at the two hour mark. And then we walked down, got back on the bus and they drove us right to the right to the Rose Bowl. So we were there from probably about 11:30. And then kickoff was about 2:15 local time.

Doug (83:38)

You left the hotel at 4:30 and then all the way through the game you had to be ready for the entire day away, which was kind of

Joe (83:46)

also the weird, stressful part of it because at 5 in the morning or Rose Parade time, it's 41 degrees and the bowl game was 65. And you can't bring backpacks, you can't bring any of that stuff. And you can't leave it on the bus because you don't know what bus you're going to get back on. So it was literally like packerwear, what you want to keep or be okay with throwing stuff out, basically. So, wow. It was fine. It was fine.

OG (84:11)

It was good.

Joe (84:11)

We got a, you know, we had a bag that everything could fit in.

Doug (84:14)

So what you probably did is you wore all your red and white outerwear in for the morning so that you were warm. And then you could just throw it away and reveal all of your maize and blue for the game. Right? Am I right?

Joe (84:28)

I would say where we were for the parade was 80, 20 Michigan to Alabama fans.

Doug (84:33)

Yeah, that makes sense.

Joe (84:34)

And maybe it's because Alabama has gone to semifinals like every year since it started.

Doug (84:38)

Basically, they're all like, we'll wait for the championship, whatever.

Joe (84:41)

This is just another one. The stadium was probably 60, 40 or 70, 30 Michigan. There's definitely the section of Alabama fans. But then you know, sometimes you just see the interspersed. You know, it's like, well, they got tickets last minute and they are where they are type of thing. All the people who got last minute tickets are all Michigan fans. It seemed so. It was definitely, definitely overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly Michigan at the game. But the, the weather was perfect. It's so beautiful out there with the, I mean, the hills and the topography and the bright blue skies and the mountains in the background. Some of the mountains had snow on them. I mean, it was like a postcard. It was crazy. B2 bomber flyover for the parade and then also for the Rose bowl, which is super cool.

OG (85:27)

Oh, I saw the Rose bowl fly over from above it and it's a really cool phone.

Joe (85:33)

Yeah, I saw that picture. I saw it from below it, which is even cooler. Wow.

Doug (85:40)

On that flex you just got dunked on.

OG (85:43)

I did on Netflix. Besides, don't question OG's authority on Rose bowl stuff. Maybe we should wrap this up and ask what we should have learned.

Joe (85:53)

Well, the coolest thing out of this whole trip, by the way we were talking about homeownership was the day before we left. I opened the refrigerator and it made a beeping noise like beep, beep, beep. Like, huh, that's weird. I opened up the freezer and I went, why is all the meat warm? Anyways, the long and the short of it was that our refrigerator broke. So in the final five hours that we were home, we had to figure out what we were going to throw away, what we were going to donate, what we were going to send to a friend's house to keep cold, what we were going to. We had a small refrigerator, beer fridge outside to put stuff that full of the stuff that we wanted to keep empty out the entire refrigerator. And all I could think about was a, this is going to be a pretty expensive fix when we get back, and B, I'm so glad this happened on the 26th at 8 at night and not the 27th at 8 at night. Because when we got home and opened up the refrigerator, which was completely empty because we emptied it all out, it was 68 degrees in the refrigerator.

Doug (86:48)

Oh.

Joe (86:48)

And I'm thinking if that would have been off by a day, it would have smelled to high heaven. So homeownership.

Doug (86:56)

I think it's cute in Texas how your beer fridge is just a little thing in the Midwest. Our beer fridge are the two previous fridges we had in the garage completely full of all the old Milwaukee that'll fit full size.

OG (87:10)

Yeah.

Joe (87:11)

Well, it came up in discussion that we need to.

OG (87:13)

Don't throw it in the yard yet.

Doug (87:15)

Well, the third old fridge is on the front porch. That's our front porch light. When we open the.

OG (87:20)

Open the door. Yes.

Joe (87:23)

And to wrap it up, in case you care, here's the final play. The rose pole, which by the way,

OG (87:29)

Alabama's got the ball. Trying to like the three yard line. Yeah, I like the. Yeah guy. Fabulous.

Joe (87:56)

I know what I learned this week, Doug. What did you learn?

Doug (88:00)

Well. Oh, gee. What's stacked up on our to do list for today? First, take some advice from Jen Drummond and commit to your goals. Do it now. Go tell someone what you're gonna do. Set milestones on a calendar. Pause this to do list right now and go get it done. Second, wanna shore up your career? Working on your interpersonal skills never hurt. Go back to the basics and win some friends and influence some people in your workplace. You won't regret it and you'll worry about your job less. So what's the biggest to do? Settle up your debts before you find yourself daydreaming about starting a new life under a pseudonym. If you do, make sure you pick a cool name like Rodrigo Guacamole. Thanks to Jen Drummond for joining us today. You can find her book Break Proof wherever books are sold. We'll also include links in our show notes at Stacking Benchmark. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2024 and is created by Josal Sehai. Our producer is Karen Repine. This show was written by Lisa Curry, who's also the host of the Long Story Long podcast with help from Me, Joe and Doc G. From the Earn and Invest podcast, Kevin Bailey helps us take a deeper dive into all the topics covered on each episode in our newsletter, called the 201. You'll find the 411 on all things money at the 201. Just visit stackingbenjamins.com 201 wonder how beautiful we all are? Of course, you'll never know. If you don't check out our YouTube version of the show, engineered by Tina Eichenberg. Then you'll see once and for all that I'm the best thing going for this podcast. Once we bottle up all this goodness, we ship it to our engineer, the amazing Steve Stewart. Steve helps the rest of our team sound nearly as good as I do right now. Want to chat with friends about the show later? Mom's friend Gertrude, Stacey Doe and Julia Garab are our social media coordinators and Gertrude is the room mother in our Facebook group. Called the Basement. So say hello when you see us posting online. To join all the Basement fun with other stackers, type stackingbenjamins.com basement for more interactive fun. Join us in Instagram every Tuesday and Thursday for our Instagram lives. Kate Younkin and Joe host these weekly. Not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

Joe (90:57)

Thank you for your time and a big fat kiss.