Joe Saul-Sehy (3:40)

Why?

Doug (3:41)

I was out of breath at the word sprint and all the rest of it was just.

Joe Saul-Sehy (3:46)

You get out of breath thinking about sprinting?

Doug (3:49)

Yeah. Makes me panic.

Joe Saul-Sehy (3:51)

Hey, everybody. Welcome to Doug is Phat and Fad Fat Podcast. Such a great Wednesday we're gonna have. We're gonna have so much fun today. You know, I knew OG today was going to start out fun because I was downtown by our historic, our historic courthouse, which is half in Arkansas, half in Texas. It's one of the unique structures, government structures on earth. In fact, when people come to Texarkana, if you come, you're going to want to take a picture out in front of it. But there was this wonderful Chinese couple there. They handed me their camera, which was really cool. I have no idea what they were saying, but I thought it was really nice of them. I thought it was super. Got today started off great, just got a free camera. It was, it was incredible. These people were amazing.

Doug (4:36)

They know how to tourist. Like, that's what you should do is go to somebody else's country and just give out free stuff.

Joe Saul-Sehy (4:41)

Nice people over there. If there were more people in America like these people, then it'd be an even better place than it is. How are you this morning, OG?

OG (4:51)

Awesome.

Doug (4:53)

Pause for effect.

Joe Saul-Sehy (4:54)

It took him 30 seconds to figure out awesome. Wait a minute. Let me take the temperature.

OG (4:58)

I was thinking of something to say. Just finished a Costco branded egg white egg cup, which are very delicious, I might add. Good protein in the morning and a fair life. So feeling pretty good. And a couple of Omega 3.

Joe Saul-Sehy (5:13)

I had a similarly nutritious meal. I have my nephews here a couple weeks ago and they left some Cocoa Puffs. So I mean, Cocoa Puffs, egg whites, same thing. Pretty same thing. Jesse, if you're listening by Cocoa Puffs, I mean egg whites. That's specifically what I'm talking about with.

Doug (5:32)

Ground up Cocoa Puffs in them.

Joe Saul-Sehy (5:35)

Yeah, just a little, little flavoring on it. If my diet coach is, is paying attention to the show, man, we got a great show today. We're going to talk about this stock market because we hit a high water mark on December 16th at 6:07 674 ticker symbol SPY. And as we record this ticker symbol SPY trading at 581 down about 4%. And OG looks like he's pretty excited about the fact that it's down because he gets to back the truck up. We're going to find out exactly what you should do with this information. Plus a headline that bitcoin also is down today. Maybe because OG ranted about it on Monday.

Doug (6:19)

He's definitely a market mover that I'm.

Joe Saul-Sehy (6:22)

Sure that's what happened. That's why it's down. So we've got all that. But before that we have a couple sponsors to make sure this show is free so you don't have to pay for it. We're going to thank them and hear from them and then we're into today's headline about financial markets on a roller coaster. Well, debt can really take a toll on you. Between minimum payments and interest rates, it's really stressful and I've been there stackers and at times it feels like you just can't get ahead. Well, Navy Federal Credit Union understands that's a huge stressor and they're here to help. Navy Federal Credit Union has all the financial tools and resources you need to dominate debt. Here's what you do. Put together your strategy. One piece of a strategy might be to lower those interest rates as much as possible so you can sock even more toward those principal payments. Right? And right now Navy Federal Credit Union is offering a 0% intro EPR on credit card balance transfers for up to 12 months. Plus you can get $250 when you spend 20 $500 in your first 90 days on a cash rewards or cash rewards plus credit card. Don't let that drag you down. Visit Navy federal.org to start dominating debt today. Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. After the intro rate expires, variable APRs are 15.15% to 18% based on creditworthiness. Rates are subject to change. ATM fees for cash advances are up to $1 at non Navy Federal ATMs.

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Joe Saul-Sehy (8:29)

Hello darlings.

OG (8:30)

And now it's time for your favorite.

Progressive Insurance Ad (8:32)

Part of the show, our Stacking Benjamin's Headlines.

Joe Saul-Sehy (8:35)

Our headline today comes to us from Bloomberg. It is written by Emily Nicole. Emily writes Bitcoin slumped to an almost two month low last week as investors dumped riskier assets following a sharp rise in bond yields. The original cryptocurrency dropped as much as 5.3% to $89,329 last Monday, its lowest since November 18, and well below the peak of 108,316 it reached in December. Other crypto assets were down even more, with Ether and Solana down as much as 10% stronger than expected. US jobs data last Friday prompted traders to curtail bets that the Federal Reserve may cut interest rates again anytime soon, exacerbating an already choppy start to 2025. There's a lot to unpack here, OG because the stock market down since mid December, cryptos down since November, we're looking at this data. It's, it's weird that Friday before last the US Comes out with this US Jobs data, which is stellar. And all of a sudden everybody goes, oh my God, it's stellar. And it seems like everybody went into sale mode. Why would people be selling? Because more people have jobs. When I first think about that, I'm like, what are traders thinking here?

OG (9:57)

I don't have absolutely any idea. I mean, I don't understand why we would pay attention to the stock market fluctuations over the course of 30 days or 90 days or 60 days or any length of time shorter than 20 years. What do you gain by being freaked out about, oh my gosh, the S and P is down 5% or Bitcoin's down 10 or whatever. Like, what are you going to do differently about it? You thought it was a great idea when it went up a whole bunch in a short period of time. You love that kind of volatility. So when it goes down by a little bit in a short period of time, all of a sudden we don't like that kind of volatility. You don't get it Both ways. If you're invested in an asset class, that's going to bounce around a little bit. It bounces around. You don't get to just have it bounce up. That's just not how it works. And if you look at your investment account and you're having any sort of emotion, there should be no emotion whatsoever associated with your investment account. But if you're having some, just expand the time horizon a little bit. Just be like, well, I'm not going to look over last month, I'm going to look over last quarter. If that doesn't make you happy, look over the last six months. If that doesn't make you happy, look over the last year. And if you're not happy with a 22% return in the S&P over the last 12 months, I don't know, I don't know what you're thinking about because, you know, everybody loves that, right? It's like, oh, we love the fact that it was up 20%. It's like, that's not normal. That is abnormal for it to have a 22% last 12 months. So guess what else is abnormal for it to have? -22%. Like, that also can happen. It's just part of the deal.

Joe Saul-Sehy (11:34)

I love your focus on broadening the lens and looking longer term because I think that to your point, if I'm in the stock market, I don't want to be thinking about the short term moves. I also think, oh, gee, there's a problem here with the media. And that is that the media. The media developing. Wow.

OG (11:57)

First TikTok is crazy and now, hold on, the media.

Joe Saul-Sehy (12:02)

Well, hold on. I mean, just not true.

OG (12:04)

Joe, you're ruining my whole watching career.

Chris (12:07)

My.

OG (12:07)

What do I do on my phone if I can't watch TikTok or NBC News? Oh, my God. Oh, what do I do? I think partly the media's fault.

Joe Saul-Sehy (12:20)

It is. No, it's not the media's fault. Hold with me for a second.

OG (12:23)

Okay?

Joe Saul-Sehy (12:23)

The media wants a narrative. And it's amazing how sometimes when you look at the stock market, we get data, right? And the stock market goes job growth. And we have a Fed move coming up, let's say, which is what they're talking about here. Oh, well, they shrugged it off because, you know, they shrugged off the good news because there's this bad news. So on this particular day, the stock market decided, as if the stock market is a brain, the stock market decided that the bad news of this trump the good news. And yet during more bullish markets, you and I have seen this. You could have those same two things. And, and what does the media say? The stock market shrugged off the fact that the Fed is not going to lower interest rates more because they were too busy applauding the fact that everybody's got jobs and we're about to see more money into the system. So there's got to be this narrative. I will tell you what does happen with traders that I think frankly a little bit here is true. You said og that that run up that we had doesn't happen that often. It doesn't happen very often. And what do I know that traders do? Not long term investors like you, me and our stacker community. But traders, they buy on speculation and they sell on the fact. So traders place a bet and when the bet comes true, they sell. And so what do we have here at the start of the year we got job growth where we want it. That's also impacts the Fed. You also have bitcoin which went up over a hundred thousand. It was crazy. On our Magic 8 Ball episode last Friday we talked about how crazy it was how much crypto went up last year. Traders sell on fact. When they get data, they go, okay, everybody else is going to panic. We're going to lock in our game. And that's what I believe was happening. I believe that these short term traders went, you know what? I've had this run up that was unbelievable. I'm not a guy who's in there long term, I'm in there short term. I'm going to cha ching the cash register while I can lock in these big huge gains even with this little 4% drop. I, I talked about that we had in the stock market over the past month. They had a monster gain. If you're a trader, you must think you're brilliant right now over the past couple years.

OG (14:39)

I mean it could be even less sexy than that. And there's a bunch of gains and you got to sell some to pay your taxes.

Joe Saul-Sehy (14:45)

Could be that too if you made.

OG (14:47)

A whole bunch of money and it's tax time and now's the time to pay the piper on the tax season. I mean it's completely useless to spend any amount of time and energy trying to unravel the day to day. Like if this then type of scenarios to your. Yeah.

Joe Saul-Sehy (15:04)

What's the narrative? Do not try to figure out the narrative.

OG (15:07)

No, because I mean and I don't have this handy but I had a resource for this some time ago where it was like literally the same exact headline CBS Money Watch used the same headline two days in a row. One was down 2%, one was up 2%. And it wasn't like they just didn't refresh the content. It was this. It was a different story, but the same headline. Like, oh well, we don't have to change the headline. This fits both. You know what I mean? And to your point, the whole idea of financial news media or any news for that point anymore is really revolved around eyeballs. You know, it's like, how do I get you to stay and listen and work yourself up into a tizzy so that I can sell you whatever the commercial is going to come up next? There's a great thinker. His name is Deval Ravikant N A V A L on Twitter. He's got some podcasts you can listen to, I think probably most famously, I shouldn't say that, but some good ones anyway. We're on the Tim Ferriss show. He's been on a couple of those long form, three hour long interviews. And Scott's just a really good thinker, man. He's got a great take on media and how it's changed over the years from being the place where you'd get your news right. You'd have to go home and then the guy on the news channel would tell you what happened that day. And it has Internet.

Joe Saul-Sehy (16:24)

And then you had two or three choices.

OG (16:26)

Yeah, yeah, Tom Brokaw, Peter Jennings or Dan Rather. Those three guys. One of those three guys or you know, if you're older than that, Walter Cronkite and whoever the other people were, you had to see what happened. And when the advent of the Internet came out and you could get information instantaneously, you didn't have to wait until 11:20 to find out the sports scores. You just pull it up on the computer and find out the sports scores anytime you wanted. And so that turned into changing the business of, of news to be more dichotomous and more like we need to have a reason for people to stay here. So, you know, you can see that transition from it being fact based and people would say maybe even those people I mentioned weren't always even keel. But at the end of the day it was a little bit more level than, than I think everybody would say. If you watch the three different media channels now, you can kind of feel the bent on, you know, what's happening. But it's more around advertising and sensationalism than it is on necessarily the information. So it's the same thing true in the financial media like cnbc doesn't get paid unless you stay through the commercial, you know what I mean? Like they need you to watch the advertisement in between. So what do they say? Hey, after these messages we'll tell you why this one trader thinks that the market's gonna go down next week. Stay tuned. And you're like, oh, the market's gonna go down. Oh, I'll just hang up for a quick second, you know what I mean?

Joe Saul-Sehy (17:51)

Surprise. And then it turns out that it's a U.S. treasury manager, it's a stock.

OG (17:55)

Influencer who's trying to tell you what crypto coins to buy. But none of this matters in your plan because this is part of the deal. When you think about it from a fact standpoint, like when you just kind of piece this together. We know that on average, so that means that sometimes it's more than this and sometimes it's less than this. We know that on average the stock market goes down 15% from its high water mark in a year. So whatever the highest point was to whatever the lowest point was, that drawdown intra year is minus 15 on average. So if you're looking at your account and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm down 10%. You're not even to the average number yet. Oh my Gosh, I'm down 14%. You're about average. Like that's an average normal ups and downs of a year. That doesn't mean it's going to average down for the year. I'm just saying like that roller coaster ride, right? You know, and so until you get to that average number, like everything below that is, it's, it's, it's, it, you should pay. I can't even imagine why you'd want to pay any attention. And so then you get to an average number, you go, oh, we're down 15 now you go, oh, something's going on, right? Maybe this is different than average. So minus 4 in 30 day, like wake me up when it's down 20.

Joe Saul-Sehy (19:20)

And I think because there's so much less data, in fact there's very little data when it comes to crypto that will give you any tea leaves whatsoever, even for traders. When you look at crypto, seeing the volatility, there just should be a even bigger part of the game, right? Volatility even more, more. So I think the people who might be new to the stacking Benjamin's universe are wondering right now, okay, if I'm not paying attention to this data and I'm looking long term, what do we do? There is a thing that we mentioned a couple weeks ago on our roundtable live from New York City. And it's called investment policy statement. And I really like these og. I think at the start of the year it's a great time to set up your investment policy statement. Can you explain to everybody what this thing is that you see pros use all the time? And we'd encourage all of our stackers to create one.

OG (20:06)

It doesn't have to be fancy. I think about it, it's just like the rules for what you're gonna do when things don't go your way. It's, it's generally pretty easy to invest when the market's going up. You feel pretty excited about it. And the downside of it going up is sometimes you can get a little speculative. But, but think about it like the guardrails or the rules around here's what we're going to do when things don't go exactly as planned and how often are we going to rebalance and what sort of things are we going to own and not own? And it could like literally just be a, a few bullet points in a notebook. It could be on a sticky note. It doesn't have to be a 75 page document submitted for publication. It's just, here's what we do. We rebalance on my birthday once a year, any new money we're going to use to invest and make our asset allocation get back to the way that we want it to be. Our asset allocation is going to look as follows. We're going to rebalance anytime our allocation drifts by more than X percent. You know, whatever. We're going to invest in low cost passive ETFs or equivalent mutual funds if we need to. We're not going to own more than 10% of any of our net worth in a single stock. Whatever rules you think you need to do. And the idea is that you think about that while things aren't crazy. Look at your estate plan for example, and you sit down with your estate planning attorney and they go, well, what happens if something bad happens? What do you want to have happen to the money? And you think about it and you go, oh gosh, that's crazy. But I guess I'd want this person to be in charge. And then you have this discussion, right? You have this reasonable discussion about who's in charge of what and what you want your kids to do. And you know all the rules, right? You think about it, when you're somewhat level headed, you can't run into the Hospital room and go, Grandpa's about to go. Let's think about his estate plan right now. Like, there's too much chaos. You're not going to get a good outcome. So the same thing is true when it comes to your investing. If you can sit down now and just say, all right, well, what. What are the things I'm going to invest in? This is a great example of something. I had a friend of mine who had brought to me a kind of a private equity thing some years ago, and as fate would have it, it was about investing in bourbon manufacturing. If you guys remember, stuff from the bourbon world. Three years ago, it was like all the rage, right? It was like, oh, my gosh, there's more drinkers of bourbon than there ever has been. And this is the cat's meow. And I just said, well, this is really interesting, but does this fit in your investment policy statement? So just that question. He's like, what's an ipo? You know, we just talked about it. He goes, I guess if I was making rules, I really wouldn't invest a lot of money in something so speculative. Okay, well, then how much money would you want to invest in this? He's like, well, I guess none. Based on that, it's like, okay, so just yesterday, I saw an Apple News. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal that said bourbon is down like 30% in the last couple of years. It's cratering. And I sent him the link and I went, good thing we didn't buy a bourbon company, right?

Joe Saul-Sehy (22:51)

Wow. Yeah.

OG (22:51)

Maybe that one's doing well. I don't know. But I'm just saying it just sets the stage for. Well, if I'm going to do speculative investments, maybe I do want to do that. Maybe I do want to have some private equity or I want to do that. All right, cool. But what are the guardrails around it? How am I going to say yes to things and say no to things?

Joe Saul-Sehy (23:08)

The piece that I like about it, OG, is that when you look at successful businesses, they don't just come up and everybody gets in a huddle and goes, okay, what are we going to do today? How's this going to work? What's going to happen? And then they read the headline and they go, oh, God. Well, I guess we, you know, it looks like the Fed's not going to do this thing, so we got to. No, a successful business is policies. And pro is standard operating procedure. Right. Standard operating procedure is what they're going to use. And this is your standard operating Procedure. So when things don't go your way to your point, or you want to change things, or you want to pay attention to this news, instead of going, oh, what's the Fed going to do next? You go, okay, is it really relevant to my success what the Fed does? And you're allowed to answer yes or no. It is part of my success or it's not. And if it is, how am I going to respond to that? When am I going to respond? What's my standard operating procedure of the response that I have? So if you decide to respond to the stuff that we're telling you probably shouldn't go for it, but at the very least, I think it gives you this, this working on the engine feel versus I wake up and, you know, my Cocoa Puffs didn't sit right with me. So I'm going to all of a sudden sell everything because who knows what the Fed's going to do at the next meeting.

OG (24:25)

Yeah, I don't know. It's. You don't need much more proof of the long term market efficacy than, you know, pull up, pull up any Warren Buffett interview, like where he's talking about this stuff. I just saw one the other day where he's, he was saying he bought his first three shares of stock for a hundred bucks and the S and P was at like 4 or 40 or some number, ridiculously low number. I mean, think about it. In 2009, Joe, in 2009, what do you remember the S and P being at? I have a distinct memory of this because I think it's a little sinister. But what was the low, low point of the S and p? March of 2009. Without looking it up, don't look it up. Don't Google, what do you remember?

Joe Saul-Sehy (25:08)

Yeah, so if we're sitting at just below 6,000 now, so I'm going to say 2,800.

OG (25:18)

Yeah, it was 660. 660 in March of 2009. Like what? That was on the heels of a minus 50. Right. So it was 1200, it went to 600 and everybody freaked out. You don't have to have that happen to you, but just a few times in your life where you look backwards and you go, well, let's see. That was a 10x return. Damn it, missed it. That was a 10x return. Damn it, missed it. I mean, why would you not believe, based on all of the history that, you know, why would you not believe that sometime in your kid's lifetime. I get that you don't believe it's. Going to happen in your lifetime again, but it's got to happen to your kids, right? So how do you not believe in your kids lifetime?

Joe Saul-Sehy (26:00)

Is that just an offhanded old guy joke?

OG (26:03)

No, no, not at all. I'm saying. I'm saying we look at things and we go, you know, when things go up or things go down, we look at it and we get it. Right. It'll come back. But not in my lifetime.

Joe Saul-Sehy (26:11)

Right. Yeah, I see what you mean.

OG (26:13)

Okay, cool. You look, you go, yeah, I get it. That's. That's back. Then it went up 10x and then it went up 10. I get it. It happened. It happened twice already. It's not going to happen again in my lifetime. Do you think it might happen in your kid's lifetime if you knew with a very high degree of certainty that the S and P was going to be at 60,000 at one point in time, how much money would you invest today?

Joe Saul-Sehy (26:33)

Used a phrase there. Also, I think that is. Is a phrase that I've had difficulty with my entire career because I hear it from investors over and over and over and oh, gee, I've never found a time when this paid. And it was. That was then. These are the new rules, right? How many times have we seen the new rules and the new rules always go bye bye and we revert back to the same old rules over and over and over. So if for some reason you think this time is different, it's an even bigger reason to have an investment policy statement. Because the odds are not in your favor.

OG (27:06)

Yeah. This is not Hunger Games.

Joe Saul-Sehy (27:08)

Not at all. We can all win here. We don't have to put everybody in arena and we go after each other.

OG (27:14)

I was going to say that the odds in your favor is a line from Hunger Games. Right? May the odds be ever in your favor.

Joe Saul-Sehy (27:19)

Let's put all those TikTok crypto influencers we were talking about on Monday and put them in an arena together that we should do Hunger Games and then.

OG (27:26)

We can take over all their TikTok channels.

Joe Saul-Sehy (27:29)

Perfect.

OG (27:29)

Some meme coins. Picking up what I'm laying down some.

Joe Saul-Sehy (27:32)

Of that basement coin. Hashtag basement coin gets you a guaranteed 86% rate of return.

OG (27:38)

860%. You're. You're off by a factor of 10.

Joe Saul-Sehy (27:41)

Oh, I. I screwed up. Yes. We had to have a specific return and no expertise in the area. We're perfect for this. This is awesome. You know what? We dive into topics even deeper than we did today. And our newsletter, the 201 it comes for free every week. Stackybenjamins.com 201 we also give you some special episodes of the 201 like we did last week. And when we come to town, it's also the way we communicate that we're on our way. And I'll be coming to Seattle on February 6th for a meetup. I will have that location shortly. But mark your calendar. And on February 8th, I'll be at retirement with our friends from the Talking Real Money podcast all day, along with Apollo Creed Lepescu.

OG (28:27)

Apollo Creed? Yes, please.

Joe Saul-Sehy (28:28)

Yeah, Apollo Creed.

OG (28:29)

Wow.

Joe Saul-Sehy (28:30)

Apollo Lepescu. Along with fictional characters Apollo Creed and Katniss Everdeen.

Doug (28:37)

And Apollo from Magnum PI he was one of the Dobermans.

OG (28:40)

Oh, that guy.

Doug (28:41)

Magnum, P.I.

Joe Saul-Sehy (28:42)

Yeah. Wow. That was a pull right there, too.

Doug (28:46)

Apollo.

Joe Saul-Sehy (28:47)

Yes. And all the Apollo mission astronauts. All the Apollos, but Apollo PSCU from Dimensional Funds. Paul Merriman will be there. And yours truly. Talk about what the happiest retirees know. All right, one more thing to do before we get to Doug's trivia time for our TikTok Minute. Well, you know what?

OG (29:07)

Sweet.

Joe Saul-Sehy (29:07)

We're not going to do. Yes, we will. We'll do the TikTok minute now.

OG (29:10)

Do it. Let's do this honorarium.

Joe Saul-Sehy (29:11)

I don't Even know if TikTok's a thing or not anymore. So this is actually a Facebook reel. And, oh, gee, we heard on Monday how you feel about TikTok. I shouldn't even ask him because I think he went after all social media. Doug, do you think we're about to hear brilliance or air quotes? Brilliance.

Doug (29:28)

I. I mean, you already know, Joe, I get all of my education from social media, so I think this is going to be amazing. I love it. Can't get enough of it.

Joe Saul-Sehy (29:37)

On a podcast that I enjoy from time to time called Smartless, Will Ferrell was on, and he was talking about the New year, and he had some things that he was thinking about for the new year, and one of them, I think, specifically applies to our show.

Doug (29:54)

Start of the Year.

OG (29:55)

So I thought I'd read my New Year's resolutions. Stop saying pun unintended. That's right, because I love puns. Yeah. Whenever I use it, I mean it. I really want to commit this year to referring to all money slash cash as cheese or cheddar and $100 bills as blue cheese. Pretty much.

Joe Saul-Sehy (30:23)

I think we. I think we need to rename this then. The Blue Cheese Podcast. Welcome to the Blue Cheese Podcast. Yeah, all this cheddar coming, people's. Way. Just because you got an investment policy statement. And it works. It absolutely works. Coming up later, we are going to help a stacker with a big question about order of operations on his retirement money. Where should the funds come from? That's always fun. And I love this topic. We haven't talked about this in a while, but before we get to that, I think, Doug, you have some little piece of history for us.

Doug (31:01)

Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and on today's date, Sam Cook was born. Oh yeah, Amazing singer, right? And Sam and I never heard of him have soma. Don't know much about history. Right. That guy Sam and I have so much in common because I too, I don't know much about history.

OG (31:21)

True.

Doug (31:21)

I don't know much about biology. And on that note, really, does anyone know what a slide rule is for? It seriously makes my head spin around just thinking about it. Speaking of head spinning, today is also the birthday of Linda Blair. See, that's how you do segues, Joe. That's how you do Segways. She played a young girl whose head spun all the way around in a horror movie that not only won two Academy Awards back in 1974, but also Cha ching the cash register for years and years. Here's today's question. In honor of this year's Academy Awards being announced tomorrow and Linda Blair's birthday, what's the name of this horror classic? I'll be back right after after I find out exactly what grade I got in that French I took. How high is the interest rate for the new Laurel Road High Yield Savings Account? This high. The air is really, really thin up here. The Laurel Road Very High Yield Savings Account.

OG (32:28)

Variable annual percentage. Percentage yield APY is subject to change at any time. No minimum balance required. Fees may reduce earnings on the account. For full terms and conditions, see laurelroad.com savings. Laurel Road is a brand of KeyBank member FDIC.

Joe Saul-Sehy (32:41)

Many of you may remember that MetPro founder Angelo Poli is on our show a ton. And the reason we have Angelo back is because he is such an expert on the science of diet and exercise. You may know or you may not know that a few years ago when I asked about metpro, they agreed to furnish me with a coach for a while named Jesse. And to this day, I still work with Jesse because diet and exercise are such an important part of my regime. And they should be, frankly, of years too. In 2025, you want to achieve big things. You need some big health to go with that fat wallet that we're trying to help you create. The team at metpro has just helped me. They've helped thousands of individuals help perform their bodies by hacking their metabolism. If you're looking for a high touch experience working with a metabolic expert or you want access to the tools their industry leading coaches use, visit MetPro Co SB. You'll get a complimentary assessment like I had and then speak to their team to learn which option is is best for you. Here's what I like. Whenever I'm eating stuff that shouldn't go in my mouth, whenever I'm avoiding working out, which is something that I aspire to always do, I think of Jesse and I think about I don't want to let myself down and Jesse's going to hold me accountable. We all need accountability coaches in our corner. But even better, Jesse's not just holding me accountable, she's holding me accountable to a more scientific approach. And if you haven't heard Angela Poli on our show, not only should you sign up for the assessment with MetPro, but you should also go back and listen because you'll hear the science. One of my favorite Angelo Poly lines. Everything works until it doesn't. All those fad diets work until they don't. And when they don't, the boomerang effect is pretty horrible. So to take advantage of this opportunity to get a complimentary assessment from MetPro, go to MetPro co. It's not.com, it's.com sb and you're going to get a complimentary metabolic profiling assessment. A one on one consultation with a Met Pro coach like my coach Jesse to help you achieve your goals this year. Course results may vary. MetPro is not a medical organization. The service is not intended to treat any illness, disease or adverse medical condition.

Ryan Reynolds (35:11)

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Progressive Insurance Ad (35:35)

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OG (35:39)

Extra Speed slower above 40 gigabytes.

Joe Saul-Sehy (35:41)

Details.

Doug (35:46)

Hey there stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. The guy who doesn't know Much about history, biology, or why Joe's mom keeps threatening me with a slide rule. I mean, seriously, what is that thing? It's definitely not for sliding on anything fun like down a water slide. Just thinking about it makes my head spin. Speaking of head spinning, today is Linda Blair's birthday. Did it again.

Joe Saul-Sehy (36:07)

So good.

Doug (36:07)

So good. Had to do it twice. She played a young girl in a terrifying movie that made head spin literally. This horror classic not only won two Academy Awards back in 1974, but also grossed an incredible $441 million worldwide, making it the first horror movie to be nominated for best picture. Another fun fact, if you adjust that for inflation, Joe, it's the highest grossing R rated movie of all time.

Joe Saul-Sehy (36:34)

Wow.

Doug (36:35)

So here's my question again. What was the name of this iconic film? It was the Exorcist. Oh, and those two Academy Awards, they were for best sound and best adapted screenplay. Not bad for a movie with enough pea soup and head spinning to make even me feel. Feel queasy. And there you have it. Now, if you'll just excuse me, I'm off to figure out why Joe's mom's fridge smells like something straight out of the Exorcist. So back to Owen. Oh, Owen, Joe G. Back to Owen. Joe G. I'm terrified.

Joe Saul-Sehy (37:09)

That's how the pros do it.

Doug (37:10)

I'm so terrified thinking about that movie, I can't even speakify afraid of that.

Joe Saul-Sehy (37:15)

Movie or afraid of the fridge because it reeks. I don't know what's going on in there, but there's something going on. So thanks for solving that mystery for us. Oh, gee, big fan of the Exorcist.

OG (37:25)

It's been so long since I've watched.

Doug (37:27)

It, I can't say that's worth a rewatch. It's. It's just. I mean, yeah, it's horrifying and there are some incredible, incredibly terrifying imagery, but the story and the way it's good movie, it's just a good movie. It really is.

Joe Saul-Sehy (37:39)

Yeah. And. And that movie came out at that time. That is when Barry Diller and Michael Eisner, when they were working together at Paramount, came out with this idea of, hey, if a movie does really well, we'll do a. We'll do a sequel. So this was kind of the birth of sequel movies.

Doug (37:54)

Early sequel, true story.

Joe Saul-Sehy (37:55)

I don't know if Doug, you may know this, but United Artists owned the rights to the Exorcist, so they went to Peter Blatty, the creator, and said, hey, we need to do An Exorcist too. And Peter Blatty said, oh, hell no, we're not doing it.

Doug (38:08)

Yeah.

Joe Saul-Sehy (38:08)

And UA said, yes, we are because we own the rights. And so they made this awful, awful movie so bad. That is the Exorcist 2. And then a movie that most people didn't watch because Exorcist 2 was so bad. Peter Blatty went to them and he said, okay, if I was going to make a sequel, which I wasn't going to make a sequel until you completely angered me, I would have done this. And he came out with Exorcist 3. Right. Which is some years later, not as good as Exorcist 1. But man, a return to form Exorcist 3 is a.

Doug (38:40)

Since we're on the fun fact train, do you know how he got the money to originally write the book?

Joe Saul-Sehy (38:46)

From the Catholic Church. That would have been great.

Doug (38:50)

That would have been a great answer. That answer is almost better than the real one. He was on a game show hosted by Groucho Marx called you Bet yout Life in the 50s. And he won $10,000. And Groucho asked him, what are you going to do with the money? And he said, I'll probably take some time off to write a novel.

Joe Saul-Sehy (39:06)

And he wrote the Exorcist.

Doug (39:07)

And he wrote the Exorcist.

Joe Saul-Sehy (39:08)

How about that? There's. There's a piece of trivia I didn't know.

OG (39:11)

Didn't take some time off to write a novel.

Joe Saul-Sehy (39:13)

Isn't that what Doug says every time he hits up the bathroom?

OG (39:17)

I got to go write a novel. Hey guys, I got to go take some time to write a novel.

Joe Saul-Sehy (39:22)

I thought that was a euphemism. Hey, time for us to help a stacker who said, you know what, I better call Saul. See? Hi. And Og. On this segment of the show, we answer a call from help from member of our community. And today we've got a. We got a great question. This one comes from stacker Chris from Georgia. Hey, Chris.

Chris (39:46)

Hi Joe and Og, quick question for you. In what order should I tap my retirement funds? Most advice I've found is to withdraw taxable accounts first, then the tax deferred accounts second and then Roth accounts last. I get the reasoning of giving your tax advantaged accounts time to grow and compound. But what if you are an IRA millionaire with no Roth accounts? I have twice as much in my taxable accounts than in tax deferred. I've got no idea what the tax rates will be in the future as no one can predict What Congress might do that includes taxing Roth accounts at a lower rate, possibly. So I'm not inclined to do a Roth conversion and pay taxes now. Does it make sense to pay estimated taxes from the deferred accounts to cover 100% of the tax burden of the taxable accounts, thereby depleting the tax time bond that's awaiting me when RMDs kick in. My thinking is that it should I pass. At least the taxable accounts should get a step up in basis while the tax deferred accounts would need to be depleted in 10 years. Would love to hear your thoughts on this. Oh, and Doug, Boiler up.

Doug (40:58)

There we go. Man, did he save it right at the end? Because I was all, I was in a kerfuffle at the beginning when he didn't acknowledge me. But nice job, Chris.

Joe Saul-Sehy (41:07)

Doug, just like Cooper Mom's basement wants to be acknowledged. Like he just wants you to acknowledge him and then he's off doing his own thing. But Chris, nice save there at the end. But, but og, this is a great question because he's got no money in Roth accounts, says he's not really interested in the Roth conversions and really doesn't like this one size fits all advice that you just hear from people out there to defer, defer, defer, defer, deferred. Where does he go?

OG (41:34)

Well, I mean, ultimately, if you don't want the generic advice, you have to like work on a specific plan, you know, specific for yourself, but apologies in advance is going to be kind of generic because we don't know a lot about all the other circumstances that go into this decision. But I would give a little pushback and I don't want to do Roth conversions because to his point around, I don't know what the tax rates are going to be. You do may want to consider paying your IRA taxes at the lowest rate possible. So let's say, for example, he has $500,000 in a brokerage account and a million and a half dollars in an IRA, right? And the conventional wisdom is spend all your $500,000, let the million and a half grow. And he's doing the proverbial 4% right? So he's living on $80,000 a year. What he might choose to do is while his tax rates are low for the first few years of taking money from his brokerage account, living on dividends and that sort of thing, maybe do a little bit of a Roth conversion so that he's using up maybe that 12% bracket or you know, maybe touching the 22% bracket of IRA conversions. If your income's zero, you can convert $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 at a pretty low rate and still be okay with Social Security taxes, still be okay with Medicare. The risk that he's talking about, of course, is what if they decide to tax Roth conversions in the future? Stretch, but it could happen.

Joe Saul-Sehy (43:00)

There's still no downside, though.

OG (43:02)

Well, if he got double taxed, it could be right. If he pays the tax to the convert. His point is, if I pay taxes to convert it and then they decide to tax it again, then I might as well have just left it in my Roth. And I get that. But you could also say, well, I can take this money at 12% and use that as my first. That's my first money. When I run out of brokerage money, it's about developing flexibility into the future for whatever happens. And now, at the end of the day, if you only have two buckets to draw from, and they're not even, you're going to run out of one before the other unless you. In all likelihood. So at some point, it just kind of is what it is. But if you're looking at it into the next five to 10 years and you've got a little bit of a Runway, you can start setting up another bucket, a third bucket there, potentially. With Ross to say, well, maybe I'm going to have a little bit here just in case, you know, I need it in the future.

Joe Saul-Sehy (43:56)

Yeah. I like the idea of Roth conversions as well, only because of the fact that he's taking advantage of exactly what he said he wants to take advantage of, which is, I don't know where tax rates are going to be in the future. Well, then why wouldn't I pull out as much money at that lowest bracket? I don't want to go into the next bracket, but if I've got extra room above what I'm spending in this current bracket and then I can just flip it into the Roth. I'm with you. It could happen. We've. We've only seen one time where people weren't, quote, grandfathered in to a scenario, and that was in the 1980s, and that was around oil exploration and some of these limited partnership opportunities. That's the only one I know of. I've never seen it happen. Yeah.

OG (44:37)

And if you look at what they're doing, the excess contributions, if you make so much money, it's got to be Roth. The government is very much focused on getting tax money in today and less focused on worrying about tax money into the future. That doesn't mean that they're not going to change it in the future. And I understand if you're 60, you know, you still got 2/3 of your life left where. Or a third of your life left where? They're like, you were just about to.

Joe Saul-Sehy (45:02)

Give Chris some really good news.

OG (45:03)

You've got like five presidential cycles, you know, 10 congressional. I mean, who knows what they're going to do? Like, I get that, but I feel like to your point, there'd be some grace. And there's no rule that says you have to have that be your last dollar. You could say, well, this is my money for 2032. That's a much closer pull from than saying, well, I'm going to defer this until the end of time. So your options are somewhat limited as you have just one or two different buckets. But I would encourage you to, from a juxtaposed position here, I'd encourage you to run a scenario of what happens if my IRA does continue to grow, give it some growth rate, and then say, well, what is my required distribution going to be in those future years? Assuming that I don't touch it, if I don't do any Roth conversions, if I, you know, I've got a million bucks and I let it sit there for the next 15 years because I don't need to touch it, you know, till I'm 75, when the government says I have to, what's that account going to be worth? And what are those RMDs? And then decide, do I want to have a little bit more control over that right now and get money, if nothing else, out of the RMD world, right? Like, you know, think about if all of a sudden you have a $3 million IRA, your required distribution, year one's 100 grand, that changes the taxability of your Social Security. It changes the taxability of or not taxability, but it increases your Medicare premiums, you know, in the subsequent years. Like, there's some downstream effects to just having a tax return that says, congratulations, you're a 1 percenter. It's like, well, I don't feel like it. I'm being forced to do this. It's like, well, tough. You know what I mean? So even if you just regain some control over the timing of that income, even if, God forbid, they tax you a little bit, I bet you can make a case for why that. Why having some flexibility there will make you feel better.

Joe Saul-Sehy (46:53)

This is where our tax control triangle comes in, where we look at tax flexibility versus tax Optimization. I agree totally, Chris, that when you try to optimize for today, which is what that very generic let it grow, let it grow, let it grow, it creates problems. Oh gee, to your point, can create some really, really big problems. Compounding problems because of the fact that you optimize just for today to get the tax control triangle, we have that available for free. It's stacking benjamin.com tax triangle. Just go to that page and you can download that. And that's on us because we think that's something everybody needs to know about to manage your money better. Thanks for the call, Chris. And if you've got a question for OG, head to stacking benjamin.com voicemail and that's the link to have OG and I tackle your question here at the end of our Wednesday shows. And you know what, for doing that, we also throw in some Stacking Benjamin swag for, for doing it. So Chris, got some swag headed your way. You'll get to go pick out which one you like best. And thanks for calling in and what a great question. Doug.

Doug (48:03)

Joe, time for us to mostly out.

Joe Saul-Sehy (48:05)

To the back porch, my friend.

Doug (48:06)

Are we just saying names we know?

Joe Saul-Sehy (48:08)

Oh gee, I thought you were going to say something. You were, you had this look on your face and then I started, I was like, okay, is it coming? And it didn't come. So I went on with it. What's, what's going on the back porch?

Doug (48:19)

Well, we've still got lots of travel plans going on. You're still headed out to the what, Northern California or no, Pacific Northwest. Right. You're going to meet a whole bunch of people in Seattle. Oh gee. And I are headed out to Lake Tahoe, cross state lines. Probably break some state and federal rules in that region, I'm sure. Transporting things across state lines.

Joe Saul-Sehy (48:43)

I don't know what we're even referring to.

Doug (48:45)

I don't know. But it's, I mean it's an option, right? We're going to be right there. Like I just want to do it just because it'll be a little risky.

Joe Saul-Sehy (48:52)

I'm going to make a last call, by the way, for the book club Q and A tonight, 7pm Central Time, 8pm Eastern. That's 5pm Pacific. If you're interested in learning more about what this 10 week course, walking through my book Stacked and building your financial plan is all about. It's stacky benjamin.com info session or go to our YouTube page that is at 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific tonight. If you're listening to this on Wednesday when we we put this out, some more praise from people that did this last year. General I was skeptical if this class would be helpful to me or not, but decided to give it a try. Turned out to be a great decision. I've improved my budgeting skills and mindset, but the best part was the part on investing. I think the changes I made will really be helpful down the road as I'm better diversified and lowered my fees too, ready for whatever financial storms headed my way. That's Jen and we had a lot of fun. It's a small group experience. We go 10 weeks through lessons from my book Stacked Stacking Benjamins.com book club is where to go to learn about it or to just sign up. But if you want to go to the information session tonight, it's stackingbenjamins.com info session info session Joe if we can.

Doug (50:07)

We have an info session about the show and then make the URL info fo show.

Joe Saul-Sehy (50:14)

I think we have to. I think we're contractually obligated to do.

Doug (50:18)

Show.

Joe Saul-Sehy (50:21)

Doug, what are the big takeaways from today's episode?

Doug (50:24)

Well Joe, first, take some advice from og. Don't make short term decisions with long term money. That'll always bite you in the a really bad place. Second order of operations for taking money out of your IRAs. That'll depend on how much you have in different corners of the tax triangle. Use tax brackets as your friend to make good decisions today that will spill into great decisions for later as well. But the big lesson? Don't talk to Joe's mom about manufacturing numbers. I did that earlier and she ranted on and on about nothing's made in the USA anymore. In fact, then she pointed to her TV and she's like, see, even my TV isn't made here. On the back it says Built in Antenna. Where the hell is Antenna? Shake my head at her.

Joe Saul-Sehy (51:14)

So good.

Doug (51:15)

Not that good.

Joe Saul-Sehy (51:16)

Come on. Nothing's made the USA anymore. My TV says it's made in Antenna. Nothing from Josh.

OG (51:23)

I don't care it.

Doug (51:26)

I hope we keep all of that in. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Joe Saul Sehi. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome team@stackingbenjamins.com along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.

Joe Saul-Sehy (51:52)

Oh yeah.

Doug (51:52)

And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin show.

Joe Saul-Sehy (52:15)

Sa I found something online that might remind me even though it said that.

Doug (53:07)

Your state senators are not allowing this to be displayed in your state. State that I got you. You found that online.

Joe Saul-Sehy (53:17)

I don't know that we want to know that any of that about you, but hey, this is. Well, this. This just reminds me of some people I work with.

Begley Jr. (53:31)

Okay, let me ask you a few questions. Let's talk about restaurants. Would you be willing to wait for a really good restaurant a half hour or would you just eat somewhere kind of crappy because you could get in right away.

I (53:41)

What do you think? The look on people's faces when they wait in line, just like, is this what are you going to eat? Or to stand quietly?

Begley Jr. (53:49)

Have you ever uttered the phrase get off my lawn?

OG (53:52)

No.

Joe Saul-Sehy (53:52)

Okay.

I (53:53)

I mean, yeah, I've said, but I didn't mean like old man, like get off my lawn. I meant more like, this is my property, so get off my lawn.

Begley Jr. (54:02)

I'm not going to sugar coat this for you. You have early onset grumpiness.

I (54:07)

What?

Begley Jr. (54:08)

Early onse grumpiness. Eog. You're going to begin to enjoy fewer and fewer things in your life. You'd be saying things like, who are these people?

I (54:16)

Who are those people?

Joe Saul-Sehy (54:16)

That's the.

I (54:17)

I mean, it's a real question.

Begley Jr. (54:18)

The only reason you leave the house is to see classic old movies. And even then you'll say it had some good parts, but all in all, it was fairly uneven. You're very young, taviog. Your life is going to change forever.

I (54:30)

Is there anything I can do?

Begley Jr. (54:32)

Normally we try meds, but you're too young for them.

I (54:34)

You seem kind of grumpy. Are you a grump?

Joe Saul-Sehy (54:36)

Yeah, but.

Begley Jr. (54:37)

But I'm a very old man. I'm 83. I'm sorry. I'll notify your family.

Joe Saul-Sehy (54:43)

That's Begley Jr. I think he. Is he 83?

Doug (54:46)

He's maybe not that old, but he's old.

Joe Saul-Sehy (54:47)

Yeah, he's up there.

Doug (54:49)

But this goes back to. I mean, I don't know how he didn't catch on, but I mean, we said OG stands for original grump.

Joe Saul-Sehy (54:57)

All those things reminded me of OG until he got to the. The classic movies and then it turned into Doug.

Doug (55:03)

That was totally. What?

Joe Saul-Sehy (55:05)

Well, I just thought it was uneven. It was. It was pretty good, but it was uneven.

Doug (55:08)

You think that's me and not you?

Joe Saul-Sehy (55:10)

That's totally you. That's a hundred percent you.

Doug (55:12)

I don't even watch classical.

OG (55:14)

Says the guy who knows all the. Oh, you guys probably saw this obscure movie that's the fifth nominated for best sound design for.

Doug (55:23)

From the Libyan director.

OG (55:25)

Yeah. From the. Yeah. Bolivian Oscars. Right. Listen to it. It's amazing.

Joe Saul-Sehy (55:31)

It is amazing. And it's not at all uneven.

OG (55:33)

But it's uneven.

Doug (55:35)

But I'm the guy who's apparently the movie critic.

Joe Saul-Sehy (55:39)

Uh huh. Get off my podcast.