Can You Save Too Much? Finding the Sweet Spot Between FI, Spending, and Life (SB1866)

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: Stacking Benjamins Show (SB1866)

Episode Title: Can You Save Too Much? Finding the Sweet Spot Between FI, Spending, and Life
Date: July 10, 2026
Panelists:

• Joe Saul-Sehy (Host)
• Diana Merriam (Economy Conference)
• Paulette Perhach (NYT Writer)
• Doc G (Jordan Grummet) (Earn and Invest Podcast)

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Overview

This episode dives into a nuanced, lively discussion about the dangers of taking personal finance “to extremes”—be that saving, spending, or earning. The panel debates whether you really can save “too much,” explores the notion of “enough,” and teases out why finding a middle ground between financial independence (FI), spending, and enjoying life truly matters. Each guest brings a distinctive angle, drawing from their expertise and life experience, creating a thoughtful yet fun roundtable.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Intro – Defining “Enough”: The Episode’s Big Question

• Main Theme: Can you save, spend, or work too much—and how do you avoid sucking the joy out of life in pursuit of optimization?
• Host Joe Saul-Sehy sets the stage:

  "How do you know when enough is enough? Can you save too much, work too much, optimize so hard that you accidentally optimize the joy right out of your life?" (00:40)

2. Panelist Introductions and Tone

• Diana Merriam (Economy Conference) updates about her event curation and life as an entrepreneur.
• Paulette Perhach jokes about her spending habits and discusses her new projects.
• Doc G sets a humorous, relatable tone, bridging serious financial topics with real-life stories.

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3. The Dangers of Extremes (Saving, Spending, Earning)

a. Reducing Expenses – Where’s the Line?

• Doc G: “There is no black or white. There are lots of shades of gray... The problem is you can go just about too far with everything.” (13:46)
• Diana: The tipping point is deprivation, but the depriving line is personal:

  “When it starts to feel like deprivation, then you know that's that line for you.” (15:33)
  She also warns we must examine if that “deprivation” is shaped by values or just social norms (re: throw pillows anecdote).

• Cultural and Mindset Angle:
  Paulette points out that adaptation matters, and that for most Americans, global standards mean we’re already living large, so “I could never do that” is almost always false.

  “If you could do it if you had to, you can do it if you choose to. It just is how it feels.” (17:58)

• Cheap vs. Frugal:
  Paulette contrasts “cheapness” (extracting value from others, e.g., car dealership coffee) with true frugality (resourcefulness + contribution).

  “That, to me, is the difference between frugal and cheap. I hate cheap.” (21:45)

• Gamification & Online Echo Chambers:
  Diana notes that online communities sometimes glorify extreme optimization, but “in person...they are rare. They just have the loudest voices online, I think.”

b. Saving – The “FI” Middle Path

• Doc G’s Hospice Perspective:

  “Most of us will probably die with too much money as opposed to the other way around of dying with not enough.” (27:08) He stresses the importance of enjoying the ride and not putting off all joy for “someday.”

• Paulette balances YOLO with slow, steady saving, especially as an entrepreneur.

  “We don’t want regrets, but we also don’t want regrets on either side of the coin.” (28:10)

• Automatic, Pay-Yourself-First Saving:
  Doc G advocates: Wall off savings so you can safely “YOLO” with the rest:

  “There are ways to YOLO responsibly...” (29:47)

• Perils of Over-Saving in FI Community:
  Diana warns, “There's this perception that once I reach my FI number, I'm going to give myself permission to live differently. And that is not how it works.” (30:41)
  The frugal habits you build stick. If you can't enjoy spending now, you might not ever.

c. Earning – When More Isn't Better

• Diana: It’s easier at first to focus on expenses, but earning more can be a better lever:

  “There’s definitely a lot of value in building that gap between your income and expenses by increasing your income. It definitely makes things easier.” (45:57)

• Job Switching & Knowing Your Worth:
  Diana shares her experience of asking for a raise, being denied, and realizing it was her cue to move on, which led to her becoming self-employed.
• Toxic Hustle:
  Doc G (from his medical/hospice viewpoint):

  “If you really get into that hustle culture of I’m going to make more and more and more, it can really consume a lot of your free time in your life. You got to be careful with that.” (51:25) “No one on their deathbed says, ‘I wish I worked more nights and weekends.’” (50:10)

• "Coast FI" as a Healthier Middle:
  Diana explains that for some, reaching “Coast FI” (where investments will grow to meet retirement needs if left alone) gives permission to rebalance and live more fully now.

  “At a certain point, your risk flips from running out of money to running out of time.” (52:17)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Doc G (14:02):

  “There is no black or white. There are lots of shades of gray... you can go just about too far with everything.”

• Diana (15:33):

  “When it starts to feel like deprivation, then you know that's that line for you.”

• Paulette (21:45):

  “I hate cheap. Is like this. Me, me, me, my. Like I'm not going to like let it flow at all.”

• Diana on extreme savers (30:41):

  "You're building habits that are going to be ingrained for long periods of time. It's not just like you reach your magical FI number and flip a switch... that's a skill you need to build slowly on your path."

• Doc G on regret (50:10):

  “No one on their deathbed says, I wish I worked more nights and weekends... is it a fair trade, you putting in that extra time, those extra hours, that extra energy, for the amount of extra money you're going to accrue?”

• Diana on CoastFI (52:17):

  “At a certain point, your risk flips from running out of money to running out of time.”

• Paulette on Balance (53:29):

  “It's almost like meditation, where you just catch yourself when you're off on either side... Coming back to that balance... That's the base, like a safe base on which you can build enjoyment.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:40 – Joe introduces the “enough” theme and guest panel
• 15:33 – Diana: Expense cutting, deprivation, and throw pillow metaphor
• 21:45 – Paulette on the difference between cheap and frugal
• 27:08 – Doc G: Hospice stories, regret, and why most die with “too much” money
• 29:47 – Doc G: “YOLO Responsibly” strategy (automatic saving, mindful spending)
• 30:41 – Diana on FI milestones and lifelong habits
• 45:57 – Diana: Earning more as a strategic lever
• 50:10 – Doc G: Why hustle culture can be a trap
• 52:17 – Coast FI and the time vs. money equation
• 53:29 – Paulette’s meditation metaphor for keeping balance

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Tone, Humor, and Culture

The conversation is lively, irreverent, and self-aware, bouncing deftly between practical financial wisdom and comedic asides (from “Ballin’” jokes to stories about ironing bread and stealing car dealership coffee). Each panelist brings not just expertise, but relatable vulnerability—emphasizing that “the messy middle” is a normal (and often overlooked) stage of everyone’s financial journey.

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Actionable Takeaways

• Track when optimizing starts to feel like deprivation (and question if those feelings are intrinsic or conditioned).
• Focus on your personal “enough”—value-based, not peer-based.
• Building balanced habits now (with both saving and enjoying) prevents regret and “extreme” missteps later.
• Don’t shy away from “Earning More”—sometimes the gap needs to increase from the top, not the bottom.
• If you’re coasting, check if you’re running out of time, not money.
• Balance isn’t static—it’s a constant, mindful recalibration.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode encourages listeners to pursue FI, frugality, or career ambition—but with mindful self-checks, community, and compassion. The “sweet spot” is rarely at either extreme.

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Where to Find the Panelists

• Diana Merriam: Economy Conference & Optimal Finance Daily
• Paulette Perhach: New York Times, writing and coaching at pauletteperhach.com
• Doc G: Earn and Invest podcast, Wealth With Purpose mastermind

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For New Listeners

For a deeper dive on all things money, subscribe to the Stacking Benjamins newsletter "The 201" (stackingbenjamins.com/201) and check out the panelists' individual projects.

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This summary captures all the major discussion arcs and best quotes, so you can take away both the wisdom and the entertainment of the episode—no headphones needed!

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.

[B]

Well, today's show is a little different and that's part of what makes it special. First, we're tackling one of the biggest questions of personal finance. How do you know when enough is enough? Can you save too much, work too much, optimize so hard that you accidentally optimize the the joy right out of your life? Well, to answer that question, we pulled together a panel that doesn't happen very often here. Mom's Basement. You're gonna hear Diana Miriam, creator of the hugely popular Economy conference that I will be at this coming March. Can't wait to see everybody again. New York Times financial writer Paulette Perhaps, which, while Paula was on a sabbatical,

[C]

sat in for her for a while.

[B]

So we haven't heard from Paulette in a while. And Doc G. Jordan Grumman, the host of the Earn and Invest podcast. And if you've been listening to Stacking Benjamins for years, you're going to recognize all three of those voices. They've each been terrific contributors to the Basement over the years, but we almost never get to hear them around the same card table. This is rare and so I think for that reason you're in for a treat. Every one of them brings us completely different perspective on money, success and what a rich life actually looks like. Now, somewhere along the way, you're probably also going to recognize that this conversation originally happened a while back and we left it that way on purpose because the references are a fun snapshot into another moment in time. But the conversation itself, well, it might be even more relevant after everything we've experienced during the first half of 2026. What a last six months we've had. Which is also why Monday, when OG and Doug and I are back here live, it's the perfect follow up. Len Penzo is going to join us as guest co host and we're going to break down the first six months of 2026. Which investments actually delivered? Did your portfolio keep pace? And more importantly, is there anything you should change because of what happened? So today's discussion is really about defining what enough looks like. Monday, we'll ask whether your investments are helping you get there. So let's get the show on the road.

[C]

Steve fired up.

[D]

Hello, honey, I'm at the mall now and I found this beautiful leather coat. And it's only a thousand. Can I get it?

[C]

Well, sure, if you like it that much.

[D]

Okay.

[E]

I also stopped by the Mercedes dealership

[D]

and saw the new model.

[E]

You know, the one I really like?

[F]

How much?

[D]

120.

[C]

Well, at that price, I want it with all the options. Great.

[D]

Oh, and. And one more thing. The house we wanted last year is back on the market.

[G]

They're.

[D]

They're asking 1.5.

[C]

We'll make them an offer, but come in at 1.4.

[D]

Okay? I love you, baby.

[C]

I love you, too. Okay, bye. Does anybody know whose phone this is?

[H]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And today this podcast goes to 11 because we're talking about extremes. Saving too much, spending too much, and working too hard. And to help us dive in, we welcome the queen of the Econome Conference and my ex girlfriend, It's Joe's mom's cousin, Diana. Plus the guy who can actually raise his hand when a flight attendant asks, is there a doctor on board? It's Doc G. And finally, a woman who puts the UN in unlucky. It's Paulette. Perhaps Joe wrote that, but that's not all. Halfway through the show, I'll share my holy trivia. And now a guy who we're all lucky to have leading the show, it's Joe. Oh, Saul. See High.

[C]

Hey, everybody, and Happy Friday to you. I am Joe Salsihai. Average Joe. Money on X, slash Twitter, slash thread, slash whatever you want it to be. It's a wonderful Friday because

[H]

we've got

[C]

a team of fantastic contributors here today, all of which are familiar voices to you, but none of which are part of our usual weekly roundtable. Let's start with the woman in Cincinnati who's bringing the economy conference to a city near you. As long as you live near Cincinnati. Diana Merriam's here.

[B]

How are you?

[E]

I'm so good. How are you doing? It's amazing to hear Doug being on this side of the mic. You know, I'm used to Being in your seat. So you're making me think I need to come with a little bit more enthusiasm next time.

[H]

Yeah, you bringing enthusiasm would maybe have kept our relationship going a little longer.

[C]

Is this going to get awkward?

[E]

Still a little salty about that.

[H]

Okay, I got the old it's not me, it's you line.

[C]

I think, Doug, it was probably completely you. Diana, let's transition off that topic really quickly. How's things going? How's things lining up for March? We're coming to Cincinnati in mid March.

[E]

That's right. So good. We are very close to finalizing the speaker lineup. I have, like, two spots left. So I'm very excited to go to. To fincon with you next week because I'm looking for my last two speakers and we are over halfway sold out. So looking really good for this far in advance.

[C]

I was. I'm just home from Bali as Doug May Now, Doug, did you know that I went to Bali and I was at Amy Minkley's retreat, and all anybody could talk about Diana was getting back together for the reunion in Cincinnati.

[E]

So go on.

[C]

Yes. The name Dinah Maria might have come up about 50 million times. And another name that comes up all the time because she filled in for a nearly a full year for Paula Pant on this show. And it's about time we had her back for reunion. Paulette perhaps joins us.

[B]

How are you?

[E]

Hi.

[D]

I'm doing great.

[C]

We have had this scheduled, I know, for a long time, Paulette, nearly minutes you've been scheduled to be on the show. How have you been?

[E]

I've been really good.

[D]

The software I've been working on for a long time is like, almost ready to go. And things are like, like, you know, being an entrepreneur, it feels really hard and hard and hard. And you look around and you're like, oh, like we have systems set up and it's feeling a little bit easier. And I'm kind of in that place in my entrepreneurial life and did my speaking of events, I did my first big speakers thing last weekend at a place called Creative Works. It was so fun. I just love all that stuff. It was no Bali, but.

[C]

Yeah, but it was Ballin. It was Ballin, right?

[D]

I refuse to say that. But if that's what you think

[I]

that

[C]

is, fine, I'll say it. And the man behind the microphone at our brother podcast, Earn an Invest, is here. Doc G, how are you, man?

[I]

Good. And. And I'll say Ballin, so perfect. Something that you and I do. You know, maybe we'll. We'll go to fincon or something. That'll be ballin.

[C]

There it is. Absolutely. Paulette's gonna be at fincon as well.

[D]

So excited.

[C]

We're having a. A reunion next week, as it were. All right. We're gonn about extremes. When does it sounds.

[I]

Doug is just salty. He's just so.

[D]

Are you not going, Doug?

[H]

No.

[G]

Not going.

[D]

That's where we first met.

[H]

I know.

[G]

Yeah.

[C]

We've got Paulette here, we got Diana, we've got Doc G. You know what, Paul? It's been a while since you've been on. I think we need to maybe review what's changed since the last time you were here. You want to go over that?

[D]

No.

[C]

Well, I do. So hold on. Let's. Let's do that right now.

[B]

We spend a lot of time making smart financial decisions, but here's one that doesn't get nearly enough attention. Your water. Think about it. We obsess about the ingredients in our food. We compare investment fees down to the tiniest fraction of a percent. And then a lot of us just assume whatever comes out of the tap. Well, I'm just gonna drink it. Here's a surprising statistic. Three out of four U.S. homes of potentially harmful contaminants in their tap water. And even when water looks perfectly clear, it can contain things like chlorine, lead forever, chemicals, and even microplastics. When I was in college, I worked for a group that would go out and do water testing. And the different things we'd find even in city waters just blew me away back then. And the sad news is, in many cities, we haven't had any change to our infrastructure. It's safe enough to pass quality standards. But is it what you really want to drink? This is why I was interested when I learned about Aqua True. Aqua True is a countertop water purifier that's been tested and certified to remove 84 contaminants. It's patented four stage reverse osmosis system goes way beyond standard pitcher and refrigeration filters. The best part, no plumbing, no installation. Just cleaner water from a system sits

[C]

right on your counter.

[B]

Aquatrue has been featured in Business Insider and Popular Science. Good Housekeeping named it the best countertop water filter. Plus, 98 of customers say their drinking water is cleaner, safer and healthier. Go to aquatrue.com now for 20 off your purifier using promo code stacking. Aquatrue even comes with a 30 day best tasting water guarantee. That's aquatrue.com spelled a Q U, A T R U promo code stacking.

[C]

But that's only the half of it. Hold on, wait. There's more.

[B]

It's summer and you know what that means. Everything feels just a little more relaxed, a little easier. I find myself reaching for the same comfortable go anywhere pieces again and again. And that's why I come back to quince. Quince is 100 European linen pants and shirts are breathable, easy to throw on and the summer upgrade your rotation needs starting at just $34. Everything in Quince is priced 50 to 80% less in similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for exceptional quality, not brand markup. I was super excited to see the number of Quints users in our Facebook group the Basement. First, it makes me feel good when I give you a great referral. And then second, I feel even better when you take it and you report back just how well it worked out. Stacker Ken purchased, like me, some badass pants. Andy gives thumbs up to Quince. Says whoever's behind the buying for that outfit, they're good. Still haven't bought caviar from Quince yet, but they brand it neighbor Doug Caviar. I'm totally buying a bunch. And stacker Nick, third thumbs up here. We bought a super comfortable set of linen sheets and a duvet from them last year. They developed a hole probably due to our dogs, and Quince replaced them free of cost and super quick. Fantastic customer service. This Stackers is exactly what I love to hear when I make a recommendation. And that is that you have the same amazing experience that I'm having. And as you heard, it's not just clothing. Quince has become a trusted favorite for everything from home to travel to everyday essentials. So make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.comsb for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comsb for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.comsb oh God.

[C]

Not the response I was.

[H]

I was expecting.

[D]

Who does your blurring?

[C]

That response might have been extreme, but Paulette Peratch is here. Dynamarium Doc G. Jordan Grummett joins us. Let's. Let's chat.

[H]

I'm here too. I'm here.

[C]

Today's piece comes to us from a website that I don't think we've gone to before for [e-mail] Getting the most out out of life. Mr. Stingy, aka Aaron, has a piece that is called Too Much of a Good Thing, Taking It Too Far. And it seems like. Let's start with you, doc, that some of the things that we're going to go over here, saving, spending and earning, all fantastic stuff until you maybe, maybe go a little too far.

[I]

You know, it's all about the sweet spot. There is no black or white. There are lots of shades of gray. And so when we look at things like savings and spending and even earning, the problem is you can go just about too far with everything.

[C]

Yeah. This piece begins. Aaron writes about the jackfruit and about how people love it because its texture feels like meat. It contains a large amount of protein packed with other healthy nutrients. Well, in July of this year, a 39 year old Russian vegan influencer who'd been living reportedly on jackfruit and durian without drinking water for years suddenly died. Turned out that he had, he had too much. Too much jackfruit but also no water.

[E]

Like, don't you think that's a part of the problem?

[D]

Like anything plus no water is like. I don't think that was about the diet.

[I]

His benefit. The fruit does carry lots of water in it, right?

[D]

I don't know.

[C]

And if you guys ever smelled durian.

[E]

No.

[D]

What does it smell like?

[I]

Oh my God, I've never even met him.

[C]

It's. You ever sat next to somebody that has funk? Like Bo Funk. Durian smells like funk.

[D]

Doug is right here.

[C]

Joe, if you, if you've got no water and you've been eating just durian and jackfruit, just imagine the sweat of that person. Oh God, I, I don't know. Not much of a Russian.

[D]

Who is he influencing stinky people?

[C]

Yeah. I don't know. Let's start off here with Diana with reducing expenses. That's where he goes first. Let's talk about the sweet spot. Reducing expenses can be a great thing. I mean, I remember lots of times in economy people talk about reducing expenses. The guy last year who talked about riding your bike every day lives in Minneapolis, riding your bike. That guy was taking reducing expenses to a whole new level and was just speaking about reducing expenses and the joy of reducing expenses.

[E]

Yeah. Well, I think it's highly personal for me. I think what the line is, is when it starts to feel like deprivation, Right. And that line is going to be really different for everyone. For me, I just don't like riding bikes. Right. I don't enjoy it. So, like, he clearly is like, I

[C]

just don't like exercise. Exercise yeah, totally overrated.

[E]

No, I'm like a hiker and I like hot yoga. Like getting on a bike. It's just. I've tried it plenty of times. It's just not my thing.

[D]

And Minneapolis is the one place I've seen, like, an ice scraping vehicle for sidewalks. Like, not riding a bike there every day.

[E]

Exactly, exactly.

[C]

Remember how happy was about it, Diana?

[D]

I mean, he was.

[E]

No, he was. But that's what I mean by it's. It's highly personal. Right. Like, when it starts to feel. To me, when it starts to feel like deprivation, then you know that. That's that line for you. But I think you also need to question, why does something feel like deprivation? Is it because it's something that, you know, I truly am not enjoying, or is this due to my cultural conditioning? So, for example, we were talking about the podcast I host, Optimal Finance Daily, and I just read an article this week from Liz over at Frugalwoods, and she was talking about minimalism in her home. And that for years she had all these throw pillows on her bed. And they hated these throw pillows. Like, they took them off the bed every night, they put them back on every morning. They had to, like, store them in a box when they were sleeping. You know, it was just this dance that they did because they thought you're supposed to have throw pillows that literally no one ever saw in their bedroom. And so that to me is like, you know, would she feel deprived if she didn't have throw pillows? No, because she didn't want them to begin with. So I think we have to kind of question, why do we want what we want? Is it because it's a cultural norm, or is it because it's something that we actually enjoy?

[C]

Are you saying that no throw pillows is a good thing?

[E]

I don't have any.

[C]

Well, I got to go grab Cheryl. I'll be right back. Because we had throw pillows and I'm. Why do we have this stuff? I have no idea. She's like, because they're great. They're fantastic. They're horrible. I'm on Team Liz Frugal woods on that one. Paula, you must have, in all the writing you've done, though, written about gamification. Because Diana's talking. She doesn't like the bicycle. The gentleman's name was Jeremy, right? Was his name Jeremy?

[E]

No, Kevin. Ha.

[C]

Kevin swinging a miss. Was his name Bill? I couldn't have been further off because Paulette, Kevin loves bicycles. Diana doesn't. Does this come down to just mindset?

[D]

To me, it Comes down to about negative 3 degrees. So I would not do that. But, yeah, it's like, I have lived in tiny places, and when people say, oh, I could never do that, and you learn to do things by just doing them, you know, And I think there's a big part that's like, for me, it's really important to acknowledge, like, you know, I just heard this statistic again, that to reach the global 1%, you have to make $32,000 a year. Right? So anything we say, like, oh, I could never do that. It's like, okay, well, then why do millions of people do it? Right? Like, they have to. So if you could do it if you had to, you can do it if you choose to. And I think it just is how it feels. So I have a roommate, and I actually really like that. I freelance, I work by myself all day. So I don't really mind having someone around as long as they're not. We all know.

[C]

No, it's gotta be somebody you can match up with.

[D]

Well, yeah, and I've been lucky, like, twice with the last two ones. It's been so fun, you know, and it's like a dinner buddy, a grocery shopping buddy. I don't really need a really nice car, and there's stuff where I spend a little extra. I've actually started buying myself nicer clothes, and I'm like, you know what? Like, I'm a professional, and I'm like, the face of my brand, and I like this investment, and it feels good. So I am going to do that. Right? So whereas some people would look at my balance and be like, oh, I would be saving up for a house way before I bought a new dress. I'm like, I literally don't even know if I ever want to own a house again. So, yeah, I don't know. It's just all about. Yeah. Where it feels good for you.

[C]

Or doesn't we exist in this. This rare community where people brag about how bad their car is? Right. That's not a bad thing. That's a fantastic thing. Aaron writes in this piece. Doc. Hetty GRE was once the richest woman in America. She was also known for being a miser. Legend has it that her son Ned had to have his leg amputated because she was too stingy to send him to a proper hospital. Like, we have the 1 audience in America, and I'm not talking about the stacking, Benjamin's audience. I'm talking about the financial podcast audience in general. Has a lot of these people in it.

[F]

What's.

[C]

What's up with the extreme here where we're like, no, I'm not paying for that. Make my life better. I'll still pass.

[I]

My favorite story, and this comes directly from the financial independence retire early community was the people who use credit card points to go on this luxurious vacation. But when they got there, they didn't want to pay for breakfast, so they bought a loaf of bread and used the iron to toast the bread. This is a true story.

[C]

This is real.

[I]

This is real. So, I mean, the truth of the matter is, right, there's a calculus. And so the idea behind saving money is so that you have money as fuel to do the things you want to do, live the life you want to live. So what happens if the process of sa saving actually causes you to do things you don't want to do and live the life you don't want to live? And so I think there's a calculus there. Like, we understand this idea of deferred gratification. I love this idea of being smart and saving and only buying things that are important to you. And that's all great because we're thinking about the future. But if you live too much in the future and then you're despising or loathing your current situation, it's no good.

[C]

Two of my favorite stories, Doc, back to your ironing.

[I]

Ironing the bread.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I read in one of the online personal finance forums, somebody who had kids and they were playing sports, and they had to bring the Gatorade. And the Gatorade they said was super expensive, so they wanted to know how to make your own Gatorade, so we didn't have to buy it if you're making your own Gatorade. And then my favorite of all time was the gentleman that said, am I the only one who goes to a car dealership on the way to work for free coffee? Like, if you're. If you're stopping by a car dealership to steal coffee because you don't want to pay for it, it is like,

[D]

it's kind of a level of, like, contribution, right? Where it's like, I think that there's ways to do things on the cheap. Like, last summer, I was in Seattle for five weeks. And so, you know, I pet sat a little bit. I hosted a writing retreat. And then there was, like, times where I was at, you know, my good friend's houses for, like, five days. I wasn't just there to, like, steal housing. I cleaned their house or I made them dinner. And I don't Love this. How can I sneak through the world with this attitude of I'm going to contribute the least, get the most out of it. Like the car dealership that's obviously there for people who are buying cars. Right. So I just. That that to me is the difference between like frugal and cheap. Like, I hate cheap. Is like this. Me, me, me, my. Like I'm not going to like let it flow at all.

[C]

I feel like some people, Diana, in the. In the fire movement have kind of made it like a race to the bottom, you know. Well, seriously, the fire movement, you know, at its about learning about value and what really makes sense to you and spending money on those things. And yet in that community, I feel like there's that subset that I can make my life suck worse than you can make your life suck.

[E]

Yeah, I definitely think that they're out there from, you know, going to a lot of events and hosting economy and the people that I meet in person, I don't see a ton of that. I think that that kind of cheapness where you're stealing coffee from a car dealership like that, to me they exist.

[H]

I.

[E]

But they are rare. They just have the loudest voices online, I think. And they contribute to this perception of the fire movement, that we're all that way or that's the way you save such a large percentage of your income. But no, I think where this comes from is there is a bit of a thrill in optimizing, right? There is a bit of a thrill in how can I get this need met in the most efficient way possible. It's kind of like extreme couponers, which I don't do that either. I don't really use coupons unless it's like super easy for me, like while I'm at the store. But people that are super into extreme couponing, I would say a small percentage of that activity is about the money they're saving. I think they really get a thrill out of the game of it.

[C]

Is there a way to. Paulette, if you've got people like this in your life, anybody who's hanging out with us, listening or watching on YouTube, is there a way to get through to these people that you know what, your life could be so much better if you didn't iron your toast?

[D]

Yeah, I don't. And I want to say, like, that hasn't been my perception of the fire community as a whole at all. I have a hard time because I'm so extreme on the other side. And that's chilled out quite a bit. So I'm kind of medium at this point, but on the other side.

[C]

Meaning you spend.

[D]

Meaning I'm such a spender.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, you'll get the foo foo toast.

[D]

I will get. I'll put avocado on that toast. So probably never going to have a house. So going crazy over here. High roller. High roller. You know, and so someone could be like, okay, miss, you know, nsfe, like, don't tell me how to spend my money. I think we all need to go for that happy medium. But one thing that I see is like, how it alienates you from other people. Right? Does it, does it alienate? Like, for example, if I say, hey, instead of going out to brunch, why don't you just come over, let's sit on my porch, I'll play some music, I'll make us brunch. Right. That saves as much money as. Or maybe not as much, but a level rather than, hey, let's sneak into this hotel and put breakfast on a room that's not ours, you know?

[H]

Yeah.

[E]

Maybe you just gotta find different friends.

[H]

There's a thrill in that too, though. I mean, you're getting big entertainment. Adrenaline rush.

[D]

Yeah, that's true.

[H]

Trying to put it on the Rosen Rosens tab.

[I]

The Underhills.

[H]

The Underhills. Underhills.

[C]

Wow. You're the third guest of the Underhills here at the Courtyard by Marriott this morning. Yeah, it's weird. And you're all making your own waffles. The second one on this piece is about saving money. And obviously, Doc, back to you. I love what Aaron says here. The greatest thing the financial independence Retire early movement taught me is you don't work until 60. And in my latest keynote talk, I spent a lot, lot of time talking about this. We have learned that you don't have to wait until you're well, well, well into your senior years to enjoy life. I mean, I think that the pioneers who are going to be on the show soon, they're going to actually be hanging out here in Texarkana with me for a couple days. It's going to be super fun. But they talk about this about, you know, don't wait until later. So saving money, you clearly from these people have this great, great middle ground. Talk about that about saving money versus, you know, people tracking their savings rate.

[I]

So I used to be a big fan of only saving. Right. And I think the opposite of saving is yolo. Right? You only live once. And I've thought a lot about this because I was very anti yol for a long Time. One thing for me, though, is I also happen when I'm not podcasting and talking about finances. I'm a hospice doctor. And so you start realizing when you're dealing with dying people that they would give anything to have just another experience or another moment where they could go out and enjoy themselves and not worry about things like money. So my stance has changed a little bit. And I think as you're talking about the finers, and a lot of us really are moving towards lifestyle design. So the idea is how do we

[F]

both save some money, defer a little

[I]

gratification, but also be in the moment and allow us to use the money we have to truly enjoy ourselves. And so I think, again, this gets

[F]

to that messy middle of trying to figure out how to both be savvy enough to not have to work till 60, 70 or 80, but also to realize that money was meant to be spent and these moments passed. And once, once those moments are past or those seasons in our lives are gone, it's hard to come back to them. And so I think we have to be cognizant, especially those of us who listen to podcasts like this and people who tend to have. Have investments and savings and are really more savvy and thinking about these things. We probably have to push ourselves actually to spend more because most of us will probably die with too much money as opposed to the other way around of dying with not enough.

[C]

Well, Paula, you'll appreciate this because I know you come at this from the exact opposite side, right, about trying to get money saved. You've talked about very publicly. In fact, Lisa Curry, who's writes a good piece of this show now, she's like, people have this problem. They actually save a lot of money. Like, who are these sickos? Like, like you struggle with that middle ground of I actually got to put some money away.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. And I recently did a piece for the New York Times about ADHD and figuring out that I had ADHD and then seeing all the ways that that affected that. And it was so amazing to write that piece. And it really helped me, like, the research helped me really have like a lot of self compassion. And there's even a neurodivergent finance group where I just saw my same story over and over, like, why can't I save money? You know? And it's like, because it doesn't produce dopamine and our brains are like, starved for dopamine. So having that, I was like, okay, I can work with that. I can understand that structure. And yeah, Because I'm like, super yolo. And, you know, what if I die before I see Machu Picchu or do this? And it is. We just, like, we're all just rolling the dice with how long our lives are going to be, how long we'll have the opportunity to do things, you know, and. And we don't want regrets, but we also don't, you know, we don't want regrets on either side of the coin.

[C]

Is that what you had to do? Did you have to up the second side of that game? Like, I don't want to regret not having money later, so I got to put some money away.

[D]

Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. And I mean, I do like the slow and steady, you know, just like that weekly payment to my retirement. And, you know, I mean, the thing is that when you're an entrepreneur, you don't really put a dollar amount on your business unless you want to pay to have your business valued, which you can. But, I mean, I've put like, like 20 to 40,000 into an app for writers. And, like, now I have a piece of software. Right. So I have been creating assets. It's just not on the balance sheet, so. But just making sure that, you know, I want to be safe and happy and comfortable in my retirement.

[C]

Yeah. When I figured out that my business was sellable, that changed the game a ton. It changed the game a lot. Doc.

[I]

I was just going to say, you know, Paulette brings up an important point. Like, there are ways to YOLO responsibly, which sounds funny because there shouldn't be such thing as YOLO responsibly. But what a lot of people do is what Paulette was talking about is, you know, they kind of pay themselves first, right. So that portion of their paycheck goes away into savings or investing before they see it. And so that takes care of some of the savings. So that if they do YOLO with the money that is sitting in the checking account, they've already started being responsible. So the idea of walling off a certain amount of money to be spontaneous, to enjoy yourselves, to splurge a little bit, but doing that within a structure that also supports saving and your future.

[C]

I feel like there's another letter there. It's like yolo kinda. Is it yolo, yolo. I. I don't. I don't know, Diana. Economy, you see these people all the time, right? People saving 50 to 70% of their salary. I get fired up when I see this. But is that. Is that the wrong approach?

[E]

It depends on your circumstances. Right. If saving 50 to 70% of your income means you're eating rice and beans every day and you're miserable, then, yeah, it is too much. I think it really depends on, you know, your income and your expenses and how do you play that dance of making sure that you're living for today but also saving something for tomorrow. I think that in the fire movement, there is obviously, you know, a celebration of savings and people bragging about their savings rate and how long it's going to take me to reach fi. And I see a lot of questions in the forums about, like, oh, this thing happened. It's going to delay me reaching my FI number. And. And what that says to me is I think that there's this perception that once I reach my Phi number, I'm going to give myself permission to live differently. And that is not how it works. Right. You are building habits that are going to be ingrained for long periods of time. And so it's not just like you reach your magical phi number and flip a switch, and all of a sudden you're able to enjoy spending. You're able to enjoy the fruits of your labor. I think that's a skill that you need to build slowly on your path to reaching your Phi number.

[C]

This goes back to Doc giving yourself permission to spend some.

[I]

Yeah, I mean, for sure. And I think that's the way Diana just put it is perfect. It's like you have to build in those habits of giving yourself permission and enjoying. Right. Because it's a boon. Having extra money is a boon. And if you don't actually eventually use it to have a better, happier life, then you're kind of wasting the whole purpose for doing it in the first place.

[C]

Paulette, I think you were in on the roundtable that we had this spring with Wes Moss, where you guys were kind of on the. We were talking about your 20s. Do you remember this conversation?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Where Wes was like, I think you should really work your ass off in your 20s, try to save as much money as you possibly can. And actually, we had Jonathan Clements on, the former personal finance columnist for the Wall Street Journal. Jonathan said it's easier to be frugal when you're in your 20s than it is to have to frugal when you're in your 70s. Right. The fact that living in a campgr when you're in your 20s and 30s is fun. Living there because you have to in your 70s and 80s is no fun. So if somebody's in their 20s and they're listening to this, would you tell them, go for that 50 to 70% lifestyle and learn to dial it back later.

[D]

Yeah. And like, get your friends in on it. You know, I think that's the big thing where it's like, let's have this focus on this big fun. Let's all say, hey, we're actually gonna go to this one cheap night and do this so that we can all spend a summer in Europe in three years. Right. So kind of just creating a culture of that, but not just being like the cheap friend who never wants to do anything, but really helping your friends understand and like visualizing together because you guys are creating a culture around your spending together. And that's a really big deal and affects you a lot.

[C]

I love the visualization part of that because it's not the race to the bottom or the race to the top. Right. It is a race towards some end goal, which I think is fabulous in that way. Then delayed gratification. The fun is getting to that goal. So I mean, doing creative stuff to, to make that happen is, is awesome. We got one more topic here which is earning. We're going to talk about that after our break. At the midway part of the show though, for people that are new to the Stacking Benjamin's universe, we have this amazing competition between our three regular contributors, all of which have stand ins today. Len Penzo, Paula Pant and OG man, we got quite a competition that you're all in the middle of. So let's go through this. Paulette, you usually were the surrogate for Paula Pant, and Paula has done amazingly well on her own this year. I have no idea what happened. You left her in a great spot, but she has actually maintained it, which is not the Paula Pant way. Paula's amazingly smart, but when it comes to our trivia competitions, usually in last place, she's got 12. She's tied with OG which we're gonna put Diana in the OG shoes today. So you've got 12. And Doc, you're gonna be Len Penzo today. You've got 13. So the score is Doc G. Len Penzo 13. Diana, Miriam and OG 12. And Paula slash Paulette 12. So it's a tight one as we are now in the fourth quarter of the year. Fourth quarter of this competition. We need a question, Doug. What trivia do we got today?

[H]

Sure do, Joe. Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and Happy Friday the 13th. I'm gonna kick off the weekend by watching all the Friday the 13th movies in order speaking Of Jason Vaughan Voorhees. I'm so glad hockey season started this week. It'll make it a lot more sense for my neighbors now that they see me mowing my lawn in a hockey mask. You may already know that the version of the game we've come to love today was invented in Canada, where the first ever indoor tournament was played in 1875. Since then, there've been lots of crazy incidents in the sport from players teeth being knocked out. That's like everybody every game to a guy's throat being slit by a skate mid game. Don't worry, he lived. I guess whoever thought of incorporating knives into a contact sport really like to live life on the edge. See what I did there? Like Diana's breakup talk. You guys probably saw today's question coming from a mile away. It's super obvious here it is. How many holes are there in a standard NHL hockey net? I'll be back right after I see what other blade related sports I can sign up for. It's gonna be awesome.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That'll be. That'll be fun. By the way, Diana, I don't know if you know this, but the word toothbrush was created by a hockey player. Did you know that?

[E]

Now I do, yes.

[C]

Because if any other person had come up with it, it would have been called a teeth brush. Just felt. Anyway, sorry, it's.

[H]

Wait for it. Wait for it. Give it a couple.

[D]

I know Len's not here, but you don't really have to take over.

[C]

Somebody had to fill in Paulette. I had to. Hey, so a lot of people making lots of money playing hockey. Hockey. Big time. Benjamin Stacking sport. Doc G. The average hockey net has a bunch of holes in it. How many are there?

[I]

I have no idea. How the hell am I supposed to know that? So you're talking about the net and the goal, right? The goalie net.

[C]

You're in Chicago Blackhawks country. Of course you know it.

[I]

I'm gonna take a wild guess because I have zero clue and say 350.

[C]

350, he says. Now, OG is last year's champion, which means that Paulette, you get to go last. So even though there's a tie, OG goes second. So Diana, 350s. What? DOC G says, what do you think? More or less?

[E]

I definitely think it's more. I'm not a sports person. I don't watch hockey. But when I think about the net, like, isn't it pretty big? It's definite. Taller than like the person standing in front of it.

[C]

It is not I will tell you that it's not.

[I]

Wait, wait, wait.

[C]

That's cheating.

[H]

Hey, hey, hey.

[C]

Sorry.

[I]

What's going on here?

[E]

Okay, so I don't know what I'm picturing. I'm probably picturing, like, soccer.

[I]

Think of a soccer goal. Yes, that's what you should be thinking.

[E]

Okay, so now I'm thrown off.

[C]

Thanks for the help, Doc.

[E]

Oh, okay. Okay. All right. Now I'm throwing off.

[D]

They kick the puck over it to get an extra point.

[H]

You know, the net at the end of golf driving ranges by the highway. It's like that.

[D]

That.

[E]

So now I'm thinking that maybe it's less. You said 350. 350.

[H]

He said 350.

[E]

I'm gonna say 150.

[C]

150. Wouldn't it be funny, Paulette, if there were no holes in a hockey net? If it really was, like, made of, I don't know, rubber or something?

[D]

Give me a rubber net.

[C]

Yes. Anyway, I.

[D]

So doc G said 350.

[C]

350. And 150 for Diana.

[D]

All right, I'll do the classic move.

[I]

Don't do it. Don't do it.

[D]

D1.

[H]

Oh, you said 3, 5, 1, 1.

[C]

She goes for more holes. 3, 5, 1. All right, we've got three guesses. 351 locked in for Paulette. 350 for Doc G. 150 for Diana. One of these guesses not like the other. We'll be right back.

[B]

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[C]

point, then you can go from a

[B]

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[A]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[C]

Doc, you kicked it off with 350. Feeling pretty good?

[I]

No, I'm feeling horrible.

[C]

Why?

[I]

I lost all my upside and I lost most of my downside.

[C]

What could possibly be wrong with that?

[I]

That sounds like most of my life here. I'm feeling uncomfortable.

[C]

Well, Diana, when Doc said the upside that he lost, Paulette went really close with 3:51. But you're way further down with 1:50. You feeling good there? Less holes. Clearly you're a big fan of hockey.

[E]

Well, given that I couldn't even picture what the. The size of the net. Not feeling great about it.

[D]

No, If.

[C]

If Diana wins and OG gets this one, this will drive me crazy. Just nuts. Paulette. 351 on a hockey night. You watch a lot of hockey?

[D]

Oh, all the time. Yeah, I have it on the background right now.

[C]

Seattle Kraken fan from back in the day?

[D]

No, but I am reminded of when my mom won the like count the beans contest at a Pickwick when I was little. Winning five years of free coffee and 500 lottery tickets, which is why I don't play the lottery. But I was like, if you count up and count across and multiply, I feel like it's going to be more than 350 pretty easily.

[C]

Well, let's see if.

[I]

Depends on the size of the hole.

[C]

Let's see.

[D]

Guys are really lobbing some at me, and it's taking a lot of control, and I'm doing pretty good so far, but one more and my head's gonna explode.

[C]

We're trying to get.

[H]

Oh, let's break her. Let's break her. Come on, gang.

[C]

Tried to get the Paulette back that wrote some of the best jokes we ever had on the Stacking Benjamin Show. Doug, you've got it from here, man. Who's right?

[H]

I sure do have it, Joe. Hey there, stackers. I'm hockey fan and knife sport innovator Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Friday the 13th has long been considered an unlucky day. One of the unluckiest players in the history of hockey was Frank Brophy, who holds the record for the most goals given up to the opposing team at a whopping 16. Considering the average goals scored by a team in a typical game is 3 to 4, it's no surprise that was Brophy's first and last season to play play professionally. I bet he wore his hockey mask to work the next day so he could hide his identity while Frank Brophy let every puck through the one big hole on the front of the net. Today's trivia question was, how many holes are there in the back of a standard NHL hockey net? The answer. While hockey nets come in different sizes for varying levels of play, a regulation NHL net has a hockey 162 more holes than Diana guessed, 39 fewer holes than Paulette Guest, and 38 unbelievable fewer holes than Doc. Yes, it has 312 holes, which means Doc G is our unbelievable winner. Like, how did this happen?

[I]

Three times in a row, baby. Three wins in a row.

[C]

The guy who's so bad at this all of a sudden may. Maybe this was a trap. Maybe this was the. You know, like you're playing pool against a person that can't play, and then all of a sudden they're like, oh, let's start playing for money. Like, Doc G all of a sudden has been fun.

[I]

Yeah, I've been messing with you guys forever.

[C]

I don't know anything about it. Or I'm lucky.

[H]

I lost a semester of tuition money doing that once.

[C]

Congratulations, Doc. You would like to make an acceptance speech.

[I]

I'm. I'm just so over the moon happy about winning, since I never, ever, ever won before, and especially not three times in a row. So this is.

[E]

This is.

[I]

This is my Emmys and Grammys all rolled up in one.

[C]

And I'm happy that we're moving on to the last part of this conversation. Let's. Let's talk about what's even more amazing, which is the third part of this. Earning more. And you see this. Diana sticking with you. Earning more makes a ton of sense. Like, this is when I was a financial planner. A lot of people would come in and they'd say, hey, I've tried to cut my budget. Cut my. But I can't cut anymore. And, you know, they were 100, right? They just needed to earn more money earning. I feel like Diana's the piece of the conversation. Not enough people talk about.

[E]

Absolutely. And I think the reason is because when you're first cleaning up your finances, it is easier to look at your expenses and see, what can I cut? You know, earning more. Maybe that means you're looking for a new job. You know, you're switching companies. You're putting together a plan to ask for a raise. So I think it can be more challenging. But there's definitely a lot of value in, you know, building that gap between your income and expenses. By increasing your income. It definitely makes things easier. It's easier to save when you've got more income coming in.

[C]

Somewhere in the recess of my memory, I think you've either told me a story before or you've written about, like, when you ask for a raise one time, and it was a really weird conversation.

[B]

No.

[E]

Oh, you're talking about when I quit my job.

[C]

Yeah, maybe.

[E]

No. I asked for a raise to be more in line with my fellow employees. I did all the research of, like, what is my market value? I had, you know, put together a whole case of, you know, what I've done for the company, what I've earned for the company, and it was denied. And so that really kind of started me thinking, probably time for me to move on.

[C]

Which is funny, because, you know, Paulette, not getting the raise isn't always a bad thing. Like, in that case, especially when you're an entrepreneur, like, going, you know what? This isn't my market. I shouldn't be working on this stuff because I'm not getting paid over here.

[D]

You know, it's like, failure. What we might call failure is always a good lesson. But I think that is a really good. You Know, like, that makes me so mad, I think, especially because we see how women are just so, you know, less valued in the workforce. And it sounds like, Diana, you really, like, had the argument, you know, and then it is like, okay, well, if you're not gonna give this to me, like, yeah, I'm headed somewhere else. So did you get another job after that you liked more and made more?

[E]

No, that's when I just decided to work for myself, really, and focus on economy and the podcast. Yeah.

[D]

I love not having to ask anyone's permission to make more money, because how hard you work seems pretty disconnected so often from how much you make at companies.

[E]

Right.

[D]

And such.

[E]

To me, it's such a tricky thing because if you ask for a raise and you don't get it, you send the message that I'm just willing to settle than less than I'm worth. And then if you also don't get it, you know, they. They think you're not happy there and you're looking for something else.

[D]

Right.

[E]

It's. I think if you're really unhappy with your pay, sure, you should try to ask for a raise, but really, I think you should just look elsewhere. Like, if you don't feel like you're getting paid what you're worth, I think the best solution is to look elsewhere,

[D]

because the leap can be so much higher than whatever 10 they're going to give you at your current company. Usually.

[E]

Absolutely. Well.

[C]

And also, if you play the game of pitting someplace else against your current situation, even if you stay, lots of HR people go, you're the first person who's going to get cut because they don't think you're on the team.

[E]

Oh, yeah, flight risk.

[C]

And by the way, statistics from nonfiction research, 64% of us think that we are underpaid. And if it. Paula, to your point, if we just make that women, the number jumps up to 75% of women are pretty sure that they're underpaid. So that's a lot of us, Doc. And yet earning more can become toxic. You know, you study the dying. I remember one of my most frustrating clients, people that I just loved, he found out that he had a terminal diagnosis. All of a sudden, he decided he was going to stop working right then. His spouse and I had tried to tell him to stop working forever before that because he had enough money. And he's like, but there's overtime. And when the overtime goes away, that's when I'll stop working. And we're like, please stop working now. So he gets this terminal diagnosis decides that they're finally going to go to Alaska. This big trip they'd had in their head forever. He's going to stop delaying that. He's going to start living. His spouse and I, super excited. He goes for a second opinion, finds out that the terminal diagnosis was wrong, and he's got this very rare condition where he might have a little pain, but he's going to live for a long, long time. Guess what he did?

[I]

Went back to work.

[B]

Went back to work immediately.

[C]

Immediately. It was absolutely horrible. But studying the dying doc, I mean, talk to me about this is earning more. Thing is, can be frustrating.

[I]

No one on their deathbed says, I wish I worked more nights and weekends, right? No one says, I wish my net worth made it to 2 million, but it only made it to 1.75 million. And boy, I'm a failure. Like, those are not the kind of things you will regret when you're on your deathbed. So the big question comes down to, yes, earning more money, again, working harder. Some of this hustle culture can be

[F]

good, but it gets to the point of extremes.

[I]

And so the question is, is it a fair trade?

[F]

Is it a fair trade of the

[I]

time you're giving up? And time is incredibly precious, and it can't be commoditized.

[F]

It just passes. So is it a fair trade, you putting in that extra time, those extra hours, that extra energy, for the amount of extra money you're going to accrue, is it worth it? And I think we have to really come to terms with the fact that if you really want to be in the very highest, upper tier echelon of earnings, that's going to take a lot of time and energy. And if you don't love what you're doing to get there, then you're doing it wrong. And so that's why we love to focus on savings, because savings is a lot easier. You can save, you can cut back on some things, you can be careful, and it won't take up all your time. It'll allow you hopefully to do some of the things you want to do. But if you really get into that kind of hustle culture of I'm going

[I]

to make more and more and more,

[F]

it can really consume a lot of your free time in your life. And you got to be careful that. Because ultimately, again, it all comes down to the fact is the purpose you're doing this for, the reason you're doing it is to use that money to do things you want to do. And if you stop doing the things you want to do because you're too busy making money. I don't know if that necessarily fills your needs either there.

[C]

Diana, you and I have talked about this before. I can't stand all the pet names in the fire movement. But what I'm wondering is this concept of coastfi. So let me explain that to people who don't know what the hell that means. That means getting enough so that you can just live and forget about saving. And as long as your money earns what it, frankly, has earned, historically, if you're in index funds, you've saved enough, Assuming that you're able to let it sit and just make enough to keep paying the bills for today. Is coastfi maybe a better goal for a lot of us, this. This idea of just getting to that enough point?

[E]

Yeah, it's definitely been a switch for me. You know, when I first started pursuing fire, I was very much, like, going the traditional path, trying to get there as fast as possible and reach that, you know, 25 times your yearly expenses. And I think my experience with my last employer really kind of had me looking at my finances and saying, okay, maybe I'm not full fi, but I have too much money to tolerate. Right. And I think at a certain point, your risk flips from running out of money to running out of time. And that line is going to be different for everyone, and everyone has a different comfort level of how much money they need. But, you know, I decided to kind of take a bet on myself and take an ex, you know, have an exploratory period. I'm relatively young, so I could always change my mind later and go back to work if that's what I decide to do. You know, Coast Phi allows for this element of flexibility that I think is really helpful for people to wrap their heads around.

[C]

Paulette, you're going to have the last word in this discussion, but I want to ask you, is the lesson here to just enjoy the journey?

[D]

I hope not,

[C]

Because you're not enjoying the journey.

[D]

I try. I'm in a constant. Yeah, And I think it's more like. It's almost like meditation, where you just catch yourself when you're off on either side, right? Where it's like, oh, I'm coasting too much toward working too hard. Oh, I'm coasting too much toward, you know, slacking off and yoloing and doordashing and ordering on Amazon all the time. And just, like, coming back to that balance between, you know, I don't. People are going to have their extremes for sure. And I don't think being like, I'm going to enjoy the journey is such a. It's a lot of pressure. But knowing that you're building on a foundation that is neither like wasting your entire life trying to amass money that is essentially useless if you don't spend it, or putting yourself in the poor house when you're older. I think that's the base, like a safe base on which you can build enjoyment.

[C]

That is a great place to leave it. I like the idea of guardrails on both sides and gets to this. We can not save, earn, or reduce expenses enough. And on the other side, we can totally wreck ourselves by going overboard. I want to talk about what each of you are doing in the amazing spaces where you work. Let's begin like we. We did at the beginning of the show with Diana. Diana, tell everybody where they can dig into the. Well, first of all, for people that don't even know what the Economy Conference is all about, we talked kind of around that at the beginning. Let's talk about what people are going to get and then how they find out to sign up and join all of us in Cincinnati.

[E]

Yeah. So Economy is a yearly party about money that I host in Cincinnati this year. Well, next year is happening March 15th through 17th of 2024. Tickets are available at economyconference.com, but really what the conference is about is community and inspiration for people on the path to fire. You know, I think when we all first get into it, we're like gung ho and really enthusiastic. And then we're in that messy middle, that kind of boring middle, I guess you could say, you know, we're just saving our money and our index funds and reading the same things online. We want something a little different and new. And I think tapping into this community for me personally has completely changed my path. And so, yeah, come hang out with us and party in Cincinnati.

[C]

It's so fun. I've been the last two years Doc G's been there and it is super fun. We got a wrangle, Paulette, and to come in at some point. Maybe we can get her this year. Speaking of Paulette, Paulette, what are you working on now? Another amazing like Flex. Oh, I wrote for the New York Times or whatever.

[D]

Yeah. So I've been contributing fairly regularly to the personal finance section of the New York Times. I wrote that story on ADHD and money, and I'm working on one about female bodyguards. As the layperson would call them Executive protection specialists is what they're Actually called, which is the career my sister is in. So that's how I know so much about it. Of course, I could not interview my sister, sadly. But that is my next story I'm working on and how people make a living by being, you know, bodyguards as women.

[C]

Then if people need a great writer in their corner.

[D]

Yeah, they should find one. That's really hard, though.

[C]

You're as good as Len Penzo at the. At the sales. Paulette perhaps dot com.

[D]

Yeah, Paulette perhaps dot com, that writer. Paulette dot com. Footfinder slash big blonde Amazon Deal.

[C]

Doc G. Save us, man. What's going on at the Earn and Invest podcast?

[I]

So, still busy doing the Earn and Invest podcast? Jonathan Dio on Mindful Investing is his new book. Last episode was about the Wealth With Purpose episode. The other thing that I'm doing is I have a mastermind which connects to Earn and Invest, called Wealth With Purpose. And last but not least, working on my second book. So all those three things keeping me busy.

[C]

You got so much keeping you busy. And you'll find Earn Invest where finer podcasts are distributed, as you'll also find Optimal Finance Daily, where you'll hear Diana Miriam on a daily basis.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Five days a week.

[E]

Absolutely. Seven days a week.

[C]

Seven. Seven days a. Five days a week is for, like, the only person. One of the few people on earth that can make me feel lazy at three days a week. Talk about extremes, Diana. There's extremes right there.

[E]

Ten minutes or less. So there's the qualifier there.

[C]

There it is.

[H]

Joe can't talk about his trip to the airport in 10 minutes, let alone where he went.

[C]

Time for our last segment of the show, the Back Porch. Doug, we got any community stuff on the calendar today?

[H]

Oh, my God. I wasn't prepared for this.

[C]

Well, then, no. The answer is probably not.

[H]

Well, you're probably traveling somewhere.

[C]

Coming up next week. They can find most of us at fincon. They'll find Doc G at fincon. They'll find Diana Miriam Paulette, perhaps at fincon. Well, I'll be in New Orleans, except for Doug.

[E]

Yeah, that's the third time we've reminded him on this episode.

[C]

That's our.

[E]

You're not coming, Doug Jug of Morton Salt.

[H]

Poured it right into my. My flesh wound. My sucking stomach wound.

[C]

We reminded him of what, Diana? That he's not coming to fincon. Is that what.

[D]

Is that what you're saying?

[E]

I'm pretty sure. Was it the fincon thing? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what it was.

[C]

The one in New Orleans. Yeah, that he's. That he's not going to be at. I did want to ask you guys because we were talking about earning more about fun jobs because I know that Paulette has. Is working on another fun job. But Diana, most fun, kind of weird job because we're going to be headed that way with Per Hatch here in a second.

[E]

Okay, So I only did this for like two weeks in college.

[C]

Oh, boy. I don't know.

[G]

Stop.

[H]

We all experimented in college.

[E]

That's right. It was such a weird job. I would like do kids birthday parties, like dressed up in these huge costumes. But the first one I did was like, I was Mickey Mouse for this like one year old's birthday party. But they didn't give you like an assistant or anything. Like you had to go to some guy's house and grab the costume out of his, like, garage. And then you drive to the party and you have to like, get yourself dressed, but you don't have like. I couldn't see anything out of this big head. And I'm trying to maneuver in a place I've never been. I think I only did like two parties. And I was like, yeah, this isn't for me.

[C]

I was asked Diana, at a Jellystone campground, my kids were little, if they would always have a dad who was camping at the campground if he wanted to play the part of Yogi Bear. And I said yes, not realizing it was like 80. It was like 88 degrees in humidity. We were by Mammoth Cave, Kentucky, and the first thing they did was they put this big belt around me that was made of ice. And I'm like, why do I need the ice? The guy's like, oh, you'll know, like five minutes in this stupid thing. Like, it's hot as hell in those.

[E]

Oh, yeah. And this guy definitely didn't clean those costumes. That was another. Yeah, gross. It was really gross.

[C]

It smelled like durian.

[D]

Oh, yeah, yeah, we.

[H]

I remember.

[C]

So I come out of this. This house, you know, in the outfit, and I jump on the hayride and. And this one little kid, his dad's sitting right next to him, will not quit yanking on my tie. Like, he just keeps. And so I'm trying to. Some guy's playing the guitar and I'm trying to clap and be like all happy and into it. And all of a sudden I just get jerked down to the left, like just so quickly. And I look down and there's this little kid and his dad's sitting next to him and his dad's doing nothing but Laugh. And the kid just keeps doing it. And had there been a YouTube, I'm, you know, I'm glad YouTube wasn't around. I didn't do anything, but I came very close to having a viral YouTube video about Yogi Bear taking down a 7 year old or maybe the 7 year old's dad.

[E]

I don't know.

[C]

Yeah, so no wonder you only did that for two weeks.

[E]

Yeah, it was a very short stint.

[C]

Stinky Mickey Mouse costume doc. Most fun, quirky job.

[I]

I don't know if I've done any well, so I guess it's basically pretty lame. But I worked in an ice cream store for a number of years and I loved it. Like making shakes and eventually like behind the grill, et cetera.

[C]

So thin. How.

[I]

What? I don't know.

[H]

Like, I would.

[I]

We used to, we used that. So of course this was horrible that they hired all the high school kids and we had like shake eating contests. Can you imagine how much money this place was losing? So when we weren't busy, I must have drank like 10 shakes. We would like throw peanut butter in there and bananas and whatever. Like, you name it, we threw it all in and we would, we would eat like, like 10 years.

[H]

Still be farting now if he was in that.

[C]

I'm so lactose intolerant. It's not funny. But my, my, that reminds me, Doug, of the Jim Gaffigan piece about how he's pretty sure he's lactose intolerant because he just drank five milkshakes and boy, he feels like, must be lactose intolerant. Paulette, that was all a lead up too. You've got a really fun gig right now. You're writing reviews of a fun product.

[D]

Product, yeah, Masks and snorkels and that.

[C]

Snorkels, yeah.

[D]

That comes of like my last trip to New York, you know, just doing that, like networking, going around talking to editors. And she's like, yeah, we really need someone to, like, update our snorkel article. I was like, sure. Just like one of those random reminds me of the day that, like a model contacted me on Instagram. Is like, I'm going to be interviewed for Glamour Bulgaria and I need someone to help me write up my interview questions. I was like, like, what? And it was real. She paid me a dollar a word. Did it that day. I was like, that's a random day.

[H]

So what do you do? Do you, like, fill up your bathtub and stick your face down there with the test?

[D]

Take it all down to Key west and try it out with my Friends in Key West.

[C]

Oh, that sounds tough. Oh, and then you write off the whole trip as research, please.

[D]

Obviously.

[C]

Duh. By the way, what do you write about snorkels? Like, how many words does this piece need to be?

[D]

I have written 4000 words about eye makeup remover. I can write anything. If you had asked me if that was possible before, I would have been like, no, it is not.

[C]

Speaking of comedians, writing about snorkels reminds me of Brian Regan talking about refrigerator salesmen. Let's have a listen to this.

[G]

Greater for our new place. And I've never bought a refrigerator in my whole life. I went into the appliance store. There's, like, 900 of them lined up. There's a salesman there. What's this guy supposed to say about refrigerators? Well, you have this refrigerator right here. This keeps all your food cold. For 600, You've got this refrigerator. This keeps all your food cold for 800. Check this out. 1400 keeps all your food cold. So this guy's working me on this one. I've never seen a guy work so hard. This one is a very nice refrigerator. It has a meat straw. And what you do with that, You would. You would put meat. Whatever varieties that. That you would choose, these would be your meats. So there's no requirement on the types of meats. You could pick bacon.

[C]

I can imagine Paulette coming up with words to describe the snorkels. This snorkel set costs 35 bucks, and

[H]

it lets the air through, lets you breathe underwater.

[D]

How about that? I don't know. I'll figure it out. Listen.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

You're gonna know what kind of snorkel would be best.

[H]

This one strawberry flavor.

[D]

That would be amazing. A flavored snorkel.

[H]

They've got flavored other things that don't require flavoring, so.

[C]

Oh, boy, there goes Doug again.

[H]

You went there, not me, man, take

[I]

that guy anywhere, and we're done.

[C]

Doug, what should we have learned today?

[H]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from Diana. Cutting expenses isn't always the answer to reaching 5. Sometimes you need to find a way to increase your income. Just be sure you don't take it to extremes. Second, heed Paulette's sage advice. If you can limit yourself to just six waffles at a hotel lobby, they won't kick you out before they realize you're not a paying guest. But the big lesson. Sword dancing is a lot harder than it looks. Which reminds me. Time to make my annual pitch for health insurance to our podcast, Bigwig. Ouch. Thanks to Diana Merriam for joining us today. Come join her in Cincinnati. Head to economeconference.com to reserve your spot. Know what else we'll do? We're going to include links in our show [e-mail] thanks to Paulette Peratch for joining us today. Looking to up your writing game? Of course you are. Trust me, you need to to learn more about how Paulette can help [e-mail] thanks also to Doc G for joining us today. You can listen to Doc G's award winning Earn and Invest Podcast episodes wherever you're listening to us right now. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2023 and is created by Joe Salcehei. Our producer is Karen Refine. This show was written by Lisa Curry, who's also the host of the Long Story Long podcast with help from me, Joe and Doc G. From the Earn and Invest podcast, Kevin Bailey helps us take a deeper dive into all the topics covered on each episode in our newsletter called the201. You'll find the411 on all things money at the201. Just visit stackingbenjamins.com 201 wonder how beautiful we all are? Of course, you'll never know if you don't check out our YouTube version of this show engineered by Tina Eichenberg. Then you'll see once and for all that I'm the best thing going for this podcast. Once we bottle up all this goodness, we ship it to our engineer, the amazing Steve Stewart. Steve helps the rest of our team sound nearly as good as I do right now. Now want to chat with friends about the show later? Mom's friend Gertrude and Kate Junkin are our social media coordinators and Gertrude is the room mother in our Facebook group called the Basement. Say hello when you see us posting online. To join all the Basement fun with other stackers, type stackingbenjamins.com basement not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[B]

What's wrong with you? It's either this show or indigestion.

[H]

I hope it's indigestion, right?

[C]

It'll get better in a little while.

[A]

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[E]

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