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The Stacking Benjamins Show
Climb Out of Your Rut: Molly Fletcher on Creating Sustainable Motivation (SB1658)
01:21:59
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- [00:00]
Joe Saul-Sehy
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- [01:22]
Molly Fletcher
Y'all are nerds.
- [01:29]
Doug
Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and how do you keep the engine running even when you don't feel like stacking those Benjamins? We'll find out from the sports agent they call the female Jerry Maguire, Molly Fletcher. And later in our headline, are you delinquent on your student loans? If so, your credit score may be about to take a beating. Let's work on that together, shall we? And now, here come three guys who think passive income means getting their kids to mow the lawn. It's Joe OG and Len Pupenzo.
- [02:18]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Hey there, staggers. And happy Wednesday. Mr. Penzo, I know that your kids don't live at home anymore, right?
- [02:25]
Len Penzo
Actually, they do. And let me real quick. I'll share a quick story about that. Funny, you said we were sitting around the table eating dinner the other night. My daughter brings up the fact that we were talking, I don't know. Ruben Studdard. Remember Reuben Studdard?
- [02:37]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, yeah, the guy from American Idol.
- [02:40]
Len Penzo
You're talking about American Idol? Yeah, he was the second winner of American Idol. And my daughter says, well, he's dead. And I was like, no, he's. He's not dead. I don't think he's dead. And she said, yeah, he's dead. And my son's like, yeah, he's dead. And my wife was like, yeah, he.
- [02:53]
Joe Saul-Sehy
He died.
- [02:54]
Len Penzo
And I'm like, no, that. That can't possibly be. Well, it turns out that he's not dead. He's very much alive. And apparently there's this thing called, you've heard this, the Mandela effect, where people think certain people are dead. You ever hear that The Mandela gets.
- [03:07]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Out there on social media?
- [03:08]
Len Penzo
Yeah. And apparently that this is actually a Reuben Studdard is. That's a very common example of the Mandela effect. A lot of people thought he was dead, but what it really turns out is it's just his career that died.
- [03:20]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So.
- [03:20]
Len Penzo
And I. So I can understand why people.
- [03:24]
Molly Fletcher
Whoa.
- [03:25]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Just. Just that singing. He's doing something, Len. You know he's doing something. Yes.
- [03:29]
Len Penzo
I. I don't know.
- [03:31]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Maybe he's. Maybe he's not. Not singing anymore. But the good news is, if he's got dynamic drive, Len, he can get a lot done because Molly Fletcher's here today. Have you seen Jerry Maguire lately? Yeah, no, but did you ever watch the movie?
- [03:45]
Len Penzo
Yes, I saw it. Yes, I saw it.
- [03:47]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, gee, you've seen Jerry Maguire?
- [03:49]
OG
Indeed. Yeah.
- [03:50]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, Great, great older movie. For those of you of a years ago, not of a certain age, but Tom, that guy named Tom. Tom Cruise as a sports agent and Molly Fletcher as Doug, you so graciously said earlier, is a sports agent who has. Has thought a lot about drive and about how to get not just the sugary high, but how do we sustainably stay on top of our game. We dove in on Monday on this topic talking about the fact that if you focus on the right things, if you use your discipline the right way, and if you conquer adversity and resilience, you're gonna. You're gonna get there. So how about that Molly Fletcher coming down here to the basement? Len, how have you been, man?
- [04:35]
Len Penzo
I've been great. I've been busy with my choo choo train and keeping my dog try to behave. My. My wild, super active dog that has got me outside active as ever. I've actually lost ten pounds because of that dog.
- [04:51]
OG
Sweet.
- [04:52]
Len Penzo
Yeah, that's actually a good thing.
- [04:54]
Doug
Did he take it out of your butt when he bit you?
- [04:58]
Joe Saul-Sehy
We've. We've seen the size of that dog, lad.
- [05:00]
Len Penzo
Well, he's big and the, you know, the train doesn't do anything for Me losing weight. So it's actually a good thing that we got the new dog.
- [05:06]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And by the way, the train I thought was on hold because your son was in that room. You were going to use his room.
- [05:11]
Len Penzo
I thought he's out of the room now.
- [05:12]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You've moved him. He's got a tent in the backyard.
- [05:14]
Len Penzo
No, he's down below here on the. He's down below in the game room.
- [05:18]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Gotcha. Awesome. So moving it around to make sure that the railroad finally gets.
- [05:23]
Len Penzo
Railroad takes precedence. Yes, I agree. I know, I'm terrible. Send your emails to Joe.
- [05:28]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Thank you. Does the kids still mow the lawn though? Is that your passive income?
- [05:33]
Len Penzo
That's a good idea. I should, you know, he does the little odd jobs around the house. Yeah, I just had him. I had him dump a whole bunch of hazardous waste. I didn't have any of the hazardous waste clothing. But you know, that's the way it goes when you're living at home in your 20s. That's. You have to buy your own hazardous waste clothes. So he just had to do it on his own without the clothing.
- [05:51]
Joe Saul-Sehy
If the worst thing in your life is that you have to buy your own hazardous waste clothing, I think it's, it's. You're gonna be okay.
- [05:56]
Len Penzo
Have you priced that stuff lately, Joe?
- [05:58]
Joe Saul-Sehy
No, but I bet it's not. I mean, it's no joke. I bet it is. No joke. Coming up in just a minute. Molly Fletcher, you heard all about her on Monday. During her almost two decade career, she represent over 300 of sports biggest names. You've heard of people like the Tom Izzo. I told you, Doug, we'd be able to say the name Tom Izzo. And super. Another guy, a sports pitcher that you've heard of. John Smoltz was one of her clients. So many different people. Today she's a world's top 50 keynote speaker. Her viral TED. A million people have watched Secrets of a champion mindset. More than a million views. Her podcast Game Changed with Molly Fletcher has interviews with experts and celebrities from all over the place. If you want to know about Drive, she's bringing it to us today. Molly Fletcher up next. But before that, we have a couple sponsors that make sure that we can keep on keeping on. And it doesn't cost you a dime for all this goodness for Le Penzo, Squirrel Cam or Molly Fletcher. All that coming. So let's hear from them. And then Molly Fletcher, front and center. She's today's mentor. That can really take a toll on you. I mean, between minimum payments and interest rates. It's really stressful and at times it feels, and I've been here like you just can't get ahead. Navy Federal Credit Union understands debt's a huge stressor and they're here to help. Navy Federal Credit Union has all the financial tools and resources you need to dominate debt. Right now, Navy Federal Credit Union is offering a 0% intro APR on credit card balance transfers for 12 months. Here's the way you use that Stackers. First of all, you create your debt payoff strategy. You figure out exactly how that's going to help you, because a 0% transfer for 12 months can save you a ton. But make that work for you. Plus, you can get $250 when you spend $2,500 in your first 90 days on a cash rewards or cash rewards plus credit card. Again, needs to be part of the overall plan. Don't let debt drag you down. Visit navy federal.org to start dominating debt today. Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission. Navy federals insured by NCUA. After the intro rate expires, variable APRs are 14.9% to 18% based on creditworthiness. Rates are subject to change. ATM fees for cash advances are up to $1 at non Navy federal ATMs. Small business owners State farms there with small business insurance to fit your specific needs. Whether you're starting a new venture or growing an existing one, State Farm helps you choose the right coverage to protect what matters most. Working with a local State Farm agent helps you understand your coverage options. Offering local support to help you achieve your goals. Focus on turning your passion into a thriving business. Knowing your insurance can change as your business grows. Stay Farm here to help you succeed with your business. Like a good neighbor, Stay Farm is there. And I'm super happy she's coming down the stairs. Molly, Fletcher's here. How are you?
- [09:04]
Molly Fletcher
I'm doing awesome. I'm excited to be with you. This is going to be fun.
- [09:07]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, it is going to be fun. But you know what else would be fun? To be called the female Jerry Maguire. Like, do you spend most of your time Molly saying, help me help you or you complete me?
- [09:18]
Molly Fletcher
You know what? It's so funny. Cause I get people that are like, does that bother you? And to me, it's just such an easy way for people to go, oh, totally get what you did. But I'll tell you what'll make you feel old is when you're standing in front of a 21 year old and you're like talking about Jerry Maguire. And they're like, what? Who's that? And I'm like, you gotta be joking me. You gotta know who that. But, yeah, no, it's funny.
- [09:41]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That old. Old movie. Jerry Maguire.
- [09:43]
Molly Fletcher
Yeah, exactly.
- [09:44]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So, so old. I got drunk when I. When I watched that the third time and wrote this mission statement out about my life and about helping our clients back when I was a financial planner and how important that was. And. And, yeah, that my wife found it, and she's like, what was this? Because she couldn't even barely read it. But I remember being so passionate after, I don't know, a couple of glasses of cabernet. Yeah.
- [10:05]
Molly Fletcher
Hey, that's a good thing. A couple of glasses get you drunk. Well done.
- [10:09]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That is a good thing. So let's talk about the stakes in this interview, Molly, and the stakes, really, in what you talk about, because a lot of what you fight is complacency. And I feel like for our audience that's so into accumulating wealth, once you've accumulated a certain amount of wealth and you're a little ways up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Right. You know, the basics are gonna be covered. I'm gonna be okay. There is this complacency that sets in. But what's the. What's the downside of that complacency?
- [10:38]
Molly Fletcher
Well, I think we want to delineate between complacency and contentment. And contentment is totally fine. Right. It's good to be and find ourselves in moments where we're very content with our toes in the sand or after we've maybe done something really unique in our lives. I mean, to be content is fine, but to be complacent. I think what's different is that we're not necessarily aware of it, and that is a scary thing. In other words, we. We've potentially throttled back physically, mentally, emotionally, relationally, spiritually in areas of our lives that maybe really matter to us. And we've unintentionally throttled back without a level of awareness around it. That's a scary thing, because I think what we see sometimes is that you close a big deal, and unintentionally, you sort of stay a little bit comfortable or a little bit complacent, and you sort of drift into this place. And sometimes you get so far down into this place of complacency that you can't get yourself back out of it because of a lack of awareness.
- [11:41]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You know, it's funny. We see statistics about the number of people that hate their jobs. Molly they just hate their jobs. And you talk about, well, you know, complacency lets me continue to sit there maybe another week, another month.
- [11:52]
Molly Fletcher
Yeah. And what I always encourage people to consider who are potentially listening and in that space is what's at risk to make a change and what's at risk if you don't. And, you know, it's interesting because for me, I grew up, my dad didn't really love his job. And so I think, subconsciously, I always thought I want to love what I do, right? Like, emptying the dishwasher takes 15 minutes, and I don't like doing it. So I certainly don't want to do something for 80,000 hours every day, five days a week, that I don't love. And that's so much of my mission. And such a part of my latest book, Dynamic Drive, and the work that I do on my podcast is really trying to help people understand the risk of settling, the risk of staying stuck, and certainly the risk of a lack of awareness around those moments in which we find ourselves a little bit stuck. I was a sports agent for almost 20 years, and in the world of sports, you can't be complacent or you lose your job. As odd as it might sound, I lived in this environment day in and day out with 300 athletes and coaches. They have to get better every day. And so they're constantly tinkering, they're curious, they're navigating feedback and all of these things in service of making sure that they never settle back in. Because if they do, they literally, the guys behind them in AAA or on the mini tours, or the coaches at the D3 level or the assistants down the bench, all of them, they're watching them, you know, and that's what's different in business. You're not necessarily seeing that somebody else is complacent, but in sports, it's right there. You're watching the guy's average drop below 200. You're like, dude, in a minute, my phone's going to ring. I'm getting a call up. So I lived in a world where it wasn't an option, and I thought the whole world was like that. And then when I got out, I was like, this is fascinating. Not everybody is trying to get better every day. And when I would say that to people, they would laugh at me. They're like, you got to be kid. You didn't know that. I'm like, I really didn't. And so I would say, too, living into the best version of yourself every day is one heck of a way to live your life. It's a whole lot more fun, too.
- [14:02]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Can we talk about one of the athletes that you work with? Because I think this is a great story from your book. Matt Kucher, the golfer really is a success story about exactly what you're talking about. A guy that had some complacency early on.
- [14:13]
Molly Fletcher
Yep, yep. Yeah. And Kuch is terrific guy, still out on tour and, you know, having success. But Matt had early success, right? I mean, he had a stud coming out of Georgia Tech, this sort of this big smile, playing in the Masters as an amateur, you know, has a couple wins, and then he. And then he really got a little complacent, got a little bit stuck. And I think oftentimes part of this is a result of the fact that we. We live in a world that's hyper focused on superficial, likes, momentary spikes in achievement. And so I think what happens unintentionally is so many people in the world think that you should focus on achievement. And I don't think Matt was sort of exempt from that. And so you think as a player, gosh, well, when I get to the All Star Game, when I sign my big $100 million free agency contract, when I win my first Tour event, if that is all you're focused on is this particular moment in time, this moment of achievement, which I saw happen with athletes, then when you do it, you can unintentionally become a little bit complacent and sort of throttle back because you've been focused on this moment in time. And that's why I think dynamic drive, it's a different kind of drive. The traditional definition of drive is you set a goal, you achieve it, and it's over, it's linear, it's got a start and an end. Dynamic drive. And what I believe that we all truly want in life and where I think real joy and fulfillment is truly found, is when we recognize that it isn't about a particular moment in time. It isn't about an achievement. It's about who we're becoming as a result of the process.
- [15:52]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And I love that, Molly, because what I see in online forums all the time, these financial forums, is when I get to X, I will be happy. When I get to Y goal, I will be happy. And I think about that Adam Sandler skit from Saturday Night Live where he's like, if you're unhappy before you go to Italy, you're going to be unhappily, you're going to be happy. When you get To Venice, you know?
- [16:09]
Molly Fletcher
Yep, totally. I love that. That's so true. It's true. And anyone that has had any level of success would say the same thing. So it's incredibly important that I think people understand that this hyper focus on achievement, which is what's so fascinating, is that the world sees in the world of sports and in the world today all these moments of achievement. And so you think, well, that's probably what they focus on, but that isn't what the best focus on. And there's plenty of athletes that I saw who were good at what they did. Right. Like they were good at what they did. But talent is maybe enough to get you drafted. It's maybe enough to get you an invitation, but it's not enough to keep you there. To stay there, to go to the All Star Game, to stay out on tour. That is a process by which you're tapping into next level mindset consistently. You're doing what I call tmrs, which is ensuring that you're shifting that limiting belief to an inner coach. You're curious, you're connected to the kind of people that you can lift up and can lift you up. You know, there's seven keys that I unpack in dynamic Drive, but those are a couple that are really critical and.
- [17:24]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I want to dive into a couple of the first ones a little bit later. But I'm also wondering if it was complacency that happened to you when you were accepted into the best university on earth, Michigan State University.
- [17:37]
Molly Fletcher
Hey, listen, you know, we've got a lot to talk about there. I mean, there. We could spend the entire time. Because, you know, I heard there's like another. There's another school in Michigan, I guess like 45 minutes away. I don't know.
- [17:47]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, my loser co host went to. That's why we didn't even invite him here, because we don't need that.
- [17:53]
Molly Fletcher
Yeah, that's right. I was a walk on. I mean, really essentially sort of this hometown kid. Give her a shot. So, no, as a matter of fact, when I got to Michigan State on the tennis court, I wasn't complacent. But I can tell you, I spent a little bit too much time at PTS and Land Shark and. And everywhere else. And I started my fall term freshman year with a 1.8, which with all due respect to Michigan State is kind of hard to do, but I managed to do it.
- [18:20]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You found a way.
- [18:21]
Molly Fletcher
I found a way, man. I found a way.
- [18:22]
Joe Saul-Sehy
But I love the idea, by the way, in that story. What I love is the idea of surrounding ourself with people that love us but also are going to push us, which I feel like a good agent does. Molly, I feel like you were that person, maybe for a lot of your clients in that story, your mom was that person. Because your mom gave you like, this. This nudge.
- [18:39]
Molly Fletcher
Yep, she did. And I'm so grateful for that. And I think that's an important thing to pull forward. I appreciate it. I mean, she looked at me when that came in and said, you can do better. And that was essentially what she said was, you can do better. And what I appreciate about that is, you know, it could have been tempting to do a lot of other things. You're moving out of the dorm, you're coming, you can't handle all of this, whatever, you can't play tennis anymore, which I'd worked so hard to do. But she just simply said, you can do better. And I did. I4 pointed seven terms in a row and graduated with high honors. And so I think we all need people who have no agenda in our lives, but for us to be the best version of ourselves that aren't afraid to tell us the kinds of things we need to hear in service of us getting better.
- [19:25]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It is such an important thing. And I feel like at some level, we're kind of afraid of having that person, you know, but, man, when we get it, yeah, it's so, like, I can point to the times that I've had that in my life. So where do we begin, this path toward dynamic drive? What's the first thing we need to focus on?
- [19:42]
Molly Fletcher
Well, getting aligned. I've been married for 25 years, have three adult children, and early in my journey, we had three kids in 12 months, which is a whole other story at the peak of my career as an agent, which is unbelievable. But we hear an energy is one of the things that I. I think is critical and we can talk about. But where I would, to answer your question, where I would encourage people to start is getting really clear on what you are chasing. To your point earlier about, you know, when I get X amount of money under management, when I do X, when I sell my company, when I have these moments of spikes, I'll be happy. What I encourage people to do is to pull back and say, what legacy do we want to leave? Right? Who's in the front row of our funeral? Who's at our 90th birthday party? What do we want on our tombstone? Get really, really clear on what you're chasing and why? And I think what happens Unintentionally, often is people are running hard and sometimes you ask them that question, and I've done that, you know, to friends and what are you chasing? And they're grinding and they don't know. And that breaks my heart. And that's so much of what I want. Dynamic drive to help solve for people is to gain that level of clarity. So we have to dig deep on purpose. And I think what makes this book different is the fact that this isn't about achievement and success. It's about sustainable high performance, which is very different because I saw a lot of people achieve something, win a golf tournament. There's a really big difference between the guys that are in the big leagues and the guys that are in the All Star game and the guys that stay there for 10 years or, or a player that wins a tour event and then wins again and again. There's a really big difference between that and the difference is they're clearly anchored in what they're pursuing. They're clearly anchored in what they're chasing, and it's anchored in their purpose. So what I encourage people to do is to pull back and say, what are the most important things in your life? Physically, mentally, emotionally, relationally and spiritually. Get really clear on what those are. And then I encourage people to write them down, write those things down. And then consider on a scale of 1 to 10, how are you doing with those? Right. Like if it's, let's say, physically sleep is something that I'm prioritizing or exercises, whatever it might be, get really clear on what those are and then rate yourself on a scale of 1 to 10. And where I encourage people to start is look at some of those where maybe it's a five, maybe it's a six. There's a gap. That's an opportunity to begin to lean into dynamic drive, which isn't a linear pursuit, but rather an opportunity to look at these seven critical components of high sustainability, sustain high performance.
- [22:29]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I had this wake up call about seven years ago, went through a similar exercise, Molly, that you're describing, and it was amazing. I found out that a lot of the stuff that I said on this piece of paper were important to me, were none of the things I was working on. I wasn't working on any of them. Wasn't working on being a great member of my community, wasn't working on being a great husband, wasn't working on being a great resource for my kids. Don't get me wrong, I was working on them, but they were like number six Seven, eight, when on paper they were number one, two, three. And so realigning my time with that was, was phenomenal. But this also speaks to where you begin, which is mindset. We talk a lot about Carol Dweck and a growth mentality here. But for people that aren't familiar with mindset and why this is the important place to kind of begin through your seven, speak to that for a moment.
- [23:18]
Molly Fletcher
Yeah, well, it's critical, right? I mean, I think, and I love Carol's work, of course, but it's critical in service of saying what is that self talk that is clipping in our brains, right. And I think we have like 80,000 automatic thoughts a day. 80,000. So you can imagine if you weren't really intentional about shifting the self talk, what is sometimes an inner critic. It is sometimes a story that we tell ourselves that's keeping us stuck in this place. An example would be, let's say exercise is a high priority to you, but the story that you tell yourself is, I don't have time. I mean, like, how in the world am I supposed to have time to work out? I've got all these emails, I have this job, I lead other people, I have kids, I'm married. How in the world am I supposed to have time to work out? So that's the story that keeps you from doing something that you've identified matters rather than pulling back and saying, wait a minute, wait a minute. When I take the time to exercise, I feel better, I sleep better, I show up better for the people in my life who matter. I might live longer and be healthier, I make better food choices when I exercise. You want to sort of recognize what is that inner critic that's keeping you stuck from what you've identified you want most. What's that story? And then shifting that to a new script that allows you to go after what you really want most.
- [24:40]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I love the tactic that you use, which is when we have this, we have the wrong mindset. Wrong is kind of. Well, no, I guess it is the right word. You can direct me here. But we have the wrong mindset when we say, man, I suck, man, I don't work out. Man, I don't. Where we have this critical self talk, what do we change that toward? Away from this person based stuff. Toward what?
- [25:05]
Molly Fletcher
Yeah, well, I mean, we can pretty obviously consider the fact that saying that to yourself won't go nowhere, right? It won't serve you. And I mean, I played tennis and I can tell you that the minute that I would say that on the court, which I would do sometimes. Right. And we've done that. We've walked out of a meeting. We've done that in sports, in life.
- [25:21]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You see it Molly on if anybody's watched Netflix Break Point, you see these people at high competition level saying it to themselves. So imagine how hard it is for you and I when even they don't get through it.
- [25:33]
Molly Fletcher
Right? Right. Well, the first step is recognizing it. Right. Like you just called it out. I mean, when we say those things, we have to recognize those things that we tend to maybe repeat or say to ourselves. Ourselves. That's going to keep us at a place that isn't taking us where we want to go. The first step is recognizing it. And then we have to pull back and say, I'm going to replace that with something that is, in fact, going to take me where I want to go. So shifting from I've got some opportunity to improve instead of I suck, and then we want to reinforce it. And so maybe it's a whiteboard on your office that has these new sort of scripts that you want to keep front and center so that when you do say I suck, you shift to I can be great or whatever it is for you. That makes sense. But we've got to keep them visible. We've got to keep them in front of us. And I think oftentimes, sometimes the mistake we make is if we don't keep that new script in front of us, then it's easy to slip back in. So I encourage people, write it down. Maybe it's a screensaver on your phone. Maybe it's on your computer. Right. Maybe it's a sticky note in your mirror, but we need it in front of us to be able to be consistent about that shift.
- [26:40]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's funny. We're trying to get better at videos. And I thought, as I was reading this chapter, I thought about the idea that, you know, focusing on the process and, okay, how do I make the process better? What do I do? And how much fun it is to make the process better. Right. What a blast it is. And how much I'm going to be laughing two years from now when I look at our videos from today and go, oh, my God, we did that. Like, we knew with the podcast from 14 years ago. You know, we replayed episode 22. We're on episode 1660 now. And. And, you know, you go back and you listen to episode 22, you're like, oh, my God, we did. What were we doing?
- [27:13]
Molly Fletcher
Right. And you know, what's crazy is you're rocking it. And in five years, you'll look back and go, dude, what were we doing? Right? I mean, but that's what's so fun, isn't it? I mean, it's so fun. I look back at, you know, now I speak probably almost 80 days a year. I do keynotes, and I love it. But, you know, you sort of look back at the video from five years ago or 10 years ago, and you're like, ooh. But that's the dynamic drive journey.
- [27:40]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And it makes it fun too, because then when you look back, you also. I mean, you go, ew. But you also go, look at what's happened. Yeah. Look at how I just took one step after another. Like, how cool is that to focus on the process? Not anything. Anything else. I think that is. Is so huge. What's funny is you see it for people that are in business. We always encourage people to read this book, the E. Myth. I don't know if you've read the E. Myth, but it is don't focus on being great at making cakes. Focus on the process of designing a business that makes cakes. And constantly. So instead of thinking about, I need Molly to be great in this interview, which she totally is rocking it. I need to have an interview process that makes sure that everybody puts their best foot forward.
- [28:21]
Molly Fletcher
Yeah, for sure. And I think sometimes it's helpful to think, how can I focus on progress, not perfection?
- [28:26]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, good point.
- [28:27]
Molly Fletcher
Because I think oftentimes we want the outcome, and we want it right now, and we want it perfect, because that's the world that we're sort of in at some level. And so we just want to focus on progress and not perfection. And what's really astounding, and I'm sure you can relate to this, is when we detach from the outcome, how it changes how we show up. I mean, with my athletes, if they stepped up to the plate and they were totally attached to. I gotta hit a bomb. I gotta hit it up. They're a little tighter. They're a little bit tighter as they're standing there. Versus I took a great bp. I'm swinging the bat well. I'm gonna just. I'm gonna do what I know how to do. And so I think progress is a critical mindset shift that is powerful too.
- [29:10]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You talk in the book a little bit about Jeff Francour, the baseball player, about his struggles in this area.
- [29:14]
Molly Fletcher
Yeah, Jeff, man, I love that guy. He's incredible. But it's dangerous when people are ridiculously gifted at something or talented at something. I think Sometimes what happens is they hear you're such a natural. Literally. That was what was on the COVID of Sports Illustrated with Jeff. You the natural. That was the Sports Illustrated cover. Well, guess what? When you get to the big leagues with 750 other dudes that are pretty good too, they're all pretty talented, they're all the best kid out of their hometown. And so talent and being naturally gifted isn't enough. And so I think there was a component of that for Jeff. Jeff was a stud football player and, you know, headed to Clemson on a full ride and then he got drafted by the Atlanta Braves. But he was the natural, truly. But then he gets into the big leagues and he never struggled. He really never, ever struggled as a baseball player. And when he started to struggle, he hadn't had the reps to know how to recover. And recovery is so critical. And I think for us as parents, for us as leaders, it's so important that, yeah, we want to be there to help people get back up, but it's okay to let people fall because that's how we build our resilience muscle. And I think part of living into pursuing better every day, dynamic drive, progress, we're not always going to nail it, right? Like, we're going to have hiccups from time to time. And resiliency is such a critical component and strengthening that resilience muscle so that we know how to recover from tough moments because we're going to have them. And I think fundamentally Jeff got to the big leagues and was like, dude, I've never been zero for my last 18 at the plate. I was smoking everything, hitting.400 coming out of it. So when that started to happen, there wasn't a real muscle there to lean into, to reset. It's interesting because I compare him to McCann, who was another local kid who was a stud. And Brian was sort of this guy that, you know. And it was a fun story to share in the book because I know them both incredibly well and represented Jeff. But like, Brian was this guy that was sort of underrated, always kind of behind Jeff's shadow, physically a catcher. So he's behind the plate with a mask on. Jeff was this gregarious, sort of good looking, fun, big personality guy. Brian was kind of a little bit more quiet when they got to the big leagues, though. Brian was actually sort of had the formula to thrive a little bit more because of some of these things that maybe other people wouldn't have necessarily seen. He'd always been sort of in the shadows and truly with A mask on. So they had different resilience muscles. No question about it.
- [32:03]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's empowering to hear that adversity really is your weapon. You know what I mean? It's such a great tool. And I also feel blessed, Molly, because nobody's ever told me at any point that guy's a natural, like, never ever. Which is hugely why I went. I never have to worry about that.
- [32:19]
Molly Fletcher
Well, you know, I haven't had an opportunity to tell you. You're a natural too, man.
- [32:23]
Joe Saul-Sehy
No, stop, stop. Don't do that.
- [32:25]
Molly Fletcher
Yeah, exactly. Just don't tell your kids that, that's all.
- [32:29]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, well, you know, you've got kids. You'll get the eye roll immediately, right?
- [32:32]
Molly Fletcher
Yeah, totally.
- [32:33]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I want to touch on the second piece of this. Once you get past mindset, you go into energy. And I just think energy is so important to control our energy and think about our energy. How do we do that? How do we make sure that we have enough energy that we show up at the right time?
- [32:47]
Molly Fletcher
Yeah. And energy, to me is key to performance. I think really good leaders, good salespeople, they're super locked. And we live in a world that's time based, so people sort of lean into that. Right. Great leaders, great salespeople, to me, focus on energy actually more than time. In other words, they ensure they have the kind of energy they need to perform at their best in the moments that matter most. And I often at a keynote, I'll ask an audience like, does anybody ever get to a meeting and a zoom call, whatever it might be, and you show up and you're like, what am I doing here? Why am I in this meeting? And then you get to the one the next day that's like the big pitch, the really critical conversation moment, whatever it might, and you don't have enough energy for the one that really, really matters. What I encourage people to do is to pull back and say, number one, who deserves your energy and who doesn't? What are the things that are worth chasing and what's not? And then I encourage people to pull back and say, what gives you energy? Physically, mentally, emotionally, relationally, spiritually, professionally and personally identify those things. And then what are the things that drain your energy? And what we want to do is something I call an energy audit, which is just pull back and say, I'm going to go into my calendar for the. And I would challenge your listeners to do this. Go into your calendar for the next 30 days. Put the things that give you energy in your calendar first. Put them in first. Protect the Things physically, mentally, emotionally, relationally that give you energy. And then I encourage people to really pull back and say, what are those things that are maybe under 30 minutes and over 30 minutes? Drop those in. We need micro breaks in our days. We can't go back to back to back to back. You know, it's not the work that'll get us truly, it's really the lack of recovery that will burn us out, that will fry us, that'll get us. So energy is so critical to high performance. And it starts with getting really clear on what are the things that allow you to show up as the best version of yourself and then protecting those like your life depends on it. The truth is, for me, that came from a lot of mistakes. I was finding myself fried, exhausted over scheduled, overbooked, not sleeping well, and then crashing and just completely exhausted. And that was when I pulled back and said, I've got to create a system that I can lean into so that I can pour into the things that matter most, show up for the moments that matter most in the way that is most optimal for me to create the outcomes that I want most. And that's just a remarkable amount of intentionality. And that's the way great athletes and coaches operate. Great leaders operate that way. And it's very simple to execute against it takes some discipline, but it's very possible. And I would argue it helps ensure that we are more clearly pursuing what in fact matters most and leaving the legacy that we want to leave and connecting with the people and the relationships that matter most to us.
- [35:55]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Those are the first two stackers. I'm so happy, Molly, that you were able to mentor us today. The book, which is funny, I told Molly this before we hit record. I was at Barnes and Noble and I just see this book and I was like, I think I need this right now. And creating this sustainable machine, not like a sugar machine, like a, you know, self help, hey, you can do it machine, right? But I need to keep going, going machine. The book is called Dynamic Drive, the purpose fueled Formula for Sustainable Success. It's available everywhere. Molly, I got one more question for you. We're starting out on, you know, we just got through the Big Ten tournament as we this we got no idea how much, you know, Michigan State probably won it all by man. I hope so.
- [36:39]
Molly Fletcher
That's right.
- [36:39]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You know, Tom Izzo. I know Tom Izzo's reputation. And even if they lost the Big Ten tournament, you know, I think Tom's head is in the right place. But recently Tom Izzo broke the Record for most wins ever by a big ten basketball coach. You've had a front row seat to Tom's career, to a good part of it. What do you think he got right?
- [37:00]
Molly Fletcher
Oh, my gosh. I mean, how much time do we have?
- [37:03]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Is that another 45 minutes?
- [37:04]
Molly Fletcher
Well, I mean, what did he get right? I think there's a few things that really stand out. You know, this is a guy from Iron Mountain, Michigan. What I think he got right is he isn't chasing hanging more banners. Right. He isn't chasing a statue out in front of Breslin center. What he has gotten right, which is truly so many things, he wakes up every day and wants to pour in to every young man that he has an opportunity to influence. And. And for Tom, does he love to win basketball games? You bet. But what he loves the most is to help those guys do things that they never thought they could do, be better than they ever thought they could be, both on and off the court. Tom cares so much. I remember one time he had a guy who. It was one of the stars on the team. And it was a few years ago, and the guy, you know, went out and they played a. It was a critical game, and the kid just didn't. He didn't play well. I mean, he just did not show up. I mean, just was missing. Offensive defense didn't play well. So after the game, Tom could see was really bummed, and the kid was disappointed. He team lost. He didn't show up. He's kind of the star. So Tom told me like 30 minutes later, after everybody leaves the locker room, he calls this guy up, and he was like, hey, man, what are you doing? And he's like, dude, coach, man, I'm sorry, dude, I just didn't show up. He goes, what are you doing? And he goes, I'm in my dorm room, coach. I mean, go, man, I just did not get it done. And Tom goes, hey, dude, come down to the lobby. I'm down here out front. Let's go for a ride. And the kid comes down, jumps in his car, and Tom drives him around campus for an hour and a half at 11 to 12:30 at night. I mean, you know, it's just who he is. I mean, he is an incredible leader. And, you know, I think for people who haven't ever seen him, if you see him on the sidelines, it is absolutely remarkable. Like, you go off on these guys, like, it is like, I'm like, oh, God, he's gonna have a heart attack. I mean, he goes insane. And now, candidly, a little less so thanks to the transfer portal and 24. 7 free agency that we're in now. But. But then I'm like, Tom, but they love you. Draymond Green, you know, Steve Smith, you pick anybody that's ever left that school that he has a lit up, they write checks, they call recruits, they will do anything for him. And I go, how do you do that? How do you do that? He said, molly, I spend time with him. He loves them. He loves them so much. And he helps them be the best version of themselves and do things that they never thought they could do. I could go on and on. He is 100% an incredible coach, community leader. And I think what's incredible is people that follow Michigan State and maybe basketball and see the kinds of things Tom's done over the years for our community. And the truth is that's 10% of the things he does for people, for other people. Picking up the phone and calling a football recruit because the coach needs help. I mean, I could go on and on. I mean, he is, you know, he is Michigan State in so many ways.
- [40:24]
Doug
Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And what's all this talk lately about a bear market? I'm not sure why the consternation. I've never been in the market for a bear. Never even thought of him as a pet. So here's today's question. What is a bear market exactly? You know, I'm asking for a friend. I'll be back right after I go over here and whisper something totally unrelated. With og.
- [40:57]
OG
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- [41:27]
Molly Fletcher
I can say to my new Samsung.
- [41:28]
OG
Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto.
- [41:31]
Molly Fletcher
Friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve. And it does without me lifting a finger so I can get in more.
- [41:37]
OG
Squats anywhere I can.
- [41:38]
Len Penzo
1, 2, 3.
- [41:41]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Will that be cash or credit? Credit. 4 Galaxy S25 Ultra, the AI companion.
- [41:48]
OG
That does the heavy lifting.
- [41:49]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So you can do.
- [41:50]
OG
You get yours@samsung.com compatible with select apps. Requires Google Gemini account.
- [41:54]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Results may vary based on input.
- [41:55]
Len Penzo
Check responses for accuracy.
- [41:57]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life. At Capella University, our game changing flexpath learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to pursue your professional goals. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.
- [42:25]
OG
Edu.
- [42:31]
Doug
Hey there stackers. I'm financial definition lover and guy who's way smarter about this than he was five minutes ago. It's Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Turns out that my friend's gut instinct about bear markets was way wrong. That guy thought it was all about selling bears at a market. What a maroon. Remember that today's question was what is a bear market? Well, a bear market is a financial market experiencing prolonged price declines, generally of 20% or more. And it usually occurs along with widespread investor pessimism, large scale liquidation of securities and other assets, and a weakening of the economy.
- [43:13]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
- [43:15]
OG
Wait.
- [43:15]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Did you just go on Investopedia for that?
- [43:17]
Doug
I definitely didn't just read that verbatim from a trusted financial source.
- [43:21]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Anyway. Continue, sir.
- [43:23]
Doug
Definitely didn't. So there you have it. Just like I already knew. Knew I knew it. Get this though. Oh gee. Tried to get my friend to believe that when the market goes up, it's called a bull market.
- [43:33]
Molly Fletcher
Ha.
- [43:34]
Doug
Not falling for that load of bull, og. Try harder next time.
- [43:38]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Man, oh man, so much there to unpack. But speaking of unpack, we got a headline to unpack. Hello darlings.
- [43:47]
OG
And now it's time for your favorite part of the show, our stacking Benjamin's Headlines.
- [43:52]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Our headline today comes to us from CNBC and it was written by Annie Nova. Annie writes millions of student borrowers are behind on loans and may see their credit scores tank. Vantage score fines. Yeah. For the first time since the pandemic becoming past due on your student loan payments will hurt your credit again. The more than 9 million borrowers who are late on their payments may see their credit scores tank by as much as 129 points as the US Department of Education ramps up collection activity again. I bet all these people are hoping that with the workforce count at the Department of Education being being down like please, please, please cut the people that are gonna look at our credit score. Please, please, please. The credit Score company analyzed a U.S. department of Education data. Vantage score, by the way, is the credit score Co. Analyzing U.S. department of Education data. Meanwhile, those who are paying their student loan bills on time will likely benefit from a rise in their credit scores by as much as eight points according to Vantage scores. A lot of people, Len, you know, we had all this forgiveness around and after the pandemic and the student loan crisis and now they're seeing these things come online. I mean, if I'm somebody who's hasn't paid my student loans in a while, like what's my maybe, what's my first.
- [45:15]
Len Penzo
Thought, well, you better get back on track and start paying late payments is one of the primary factors in your credit score. The longer that you're delinquent on paying, the worse it impacts your score. So if you're going to have a 30 day delinquency, don't just give up and say, oh well then I'm already delinquent. I'm just going to, I'm already late, I might as well just go completely delinquent. No, don't do it, pay it off. Because 30 days is less impact on your score than 60 days and 60 days less impact than 90 days and 90 days is less impact on total delinquency. So do everything in your power to at least keep up on those payments. I think the good news is, you know, the interest rates on those loans are very low. So if you are going to make minimum payments, that's probably, you know, it's a lot less. I know it's bad to make minimum payments, but if you're going to do it, do it for student loan, not some credit card where you're paying 29% interest.
- [46:08]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Around 9.2 million borrowers. And he writes 43% of the roughly 22 million borrowers with payments due are behind on their payments according to the Vantage Score report. I gotta think og that, you know, my goal's gotta be, especially if I'm in college, to make sure that I've got credit for all the things that I'm going to need after college. You know, if I need a reliable car and I can't afford to pay cash if I end up, you know, they're going to check your credit when you go to rent an apartment.
- [46:37]
OG
Even despite what Dave Ramsey suggests that you can live your life without a credit score, I think you can if you have profound amounts of cash. But for the rest of the real world, everything is credit score driven. They're going to check your credit score for Your insurance to see if you're a responsible person when it comes to insurance, they're going to check it for renting houses or apartments or everything that you need to do is going to revolve around your good, bad or indifferent. And I'm not saying it should be that way. I'm just saying that's what it is presently. And to Len's point that the unraveling of one single mistake takes two years. And I know you look at it and you go, well, if I'm already 30 days, I might as well be 60. If, if I'm already 60, I might as well be 90. That sort of thing. But every step along that rung to Len's point gets worse and worse and worse and you restart the clock. If you have a 30 day late, it will take you two years to have that completely removed from your credit file. In terms of the impact, the credit score impact. If you have a 60 day late now, it's going to take two years and another two months. Right. Because you're 60 days into it by the time you get.
- [47:53]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So even the amount of time it takes to get it off your credit magnifies.
- [47:56]
OG
Yeah. Because you now are 60 days days behind. So you've had this issue. And student loans, again, not advocating for them or saying they are too much or too little or shouldn't be there or whatever the case may be. It's one of those things where you just are where you are at this point and you can fight the battle a different way. But student loans are quite often the most gracious things for forbearances and lower payments. And just working with you now, that I wouldn't do that, by the way, they don't go away. Some people are under the impression that like, well, if I just don't make enough money, what are they going to do? I'll tell you what they do. They will take it from your Social Security check eventually. That's where they get the money from. Unless you die between when you take the student loan and filing for Social Security, when you go to file for Social Security, they'll say, whoa, hold on a second. Looks like you owe us 87,000 from your undergrad in 1982. You know, even though you borrowed 10 grand with all the interest, we'll just take your Social Security checks until you get caught up. So there is a plan to have it paid off. The government has that for you. You can credit card surf this with loan refinancing, refinance it at one bank, make a payment Refinance it at another bank, you know, at that period of time, you know, if you're like really, really, really struggling, you can get creative with that transit time of when I'm refinancing it. So the loan isn't due during this 30 day period while it's refinancing. Like you can try to do all that sort of stuff if you need to, but the fact remains, eventually you're going to have to start paying this back. If you let it just sit there and continue to compound with interest, even at low interest rates, it's going to turn into more and more money and just becomes that much more difficult to get after.
- [49:38]
Len Penzo
So, you know, I don't think people realize how bad credit, you know, when you let your credit go, it can get really bad. I know somebody, their credit is so bad that even the credit card offers they get in the mail, they're pre declined.
- [49:51]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Pre declined. You've been pre declined. Don't even bother. Could you see getting that from Citigroup?
- [49:59]
OG
It goes into everything though. You'd be surprised at how much stuff has affected your ability to get the water turned down in your new house, in your apartment. They're going to run and they'll say, and where it manifests itself is extra payments for you. They'll say, well, we'll turn your water on, but you got to pay us 500 first.
- [50:17]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, you got to have some kind of a security deposit.
- [50:19]
OG
You got to have a security deposit to do this, you know, and so what does that do? That like continually puts you if you're already behind on your payments. And now the water company says, by the way, to turn the water on, we need an extra 500. I'm guessing you don't have 500 lying around. And now that puts you, you know, it's just like this never ending thing. I don't think that's right. But it, you know, you got to be careful with your credit score because of all those things.
- [50:46]
Joe Saul-Sehy
This is why the first step, I think is to get that emergency fund in place. Because things are going to happen that are going to disrupt your ability to pay off debt. I mean, life is just going to happen. There's no way your muffler's not going to be dragging behind your car at some point or the, you know, the refrigerator is going to stop running or whatever the thing, something stupid is going to happen. It's always going to be out of the blue. And if you don't have that emergency fund, then you can't continue to get your credit in order. And I always get pushback on that. I always get people going, no, no, no. I'll just use my credit as my emergency fund. But if you do that, then every time there's something, you're taking that thing out again. And I think the first thing to do is change the habit. You got to change change the habit. Before we go further, though, I gotta ask the question every stacker is asking right now. Len, is your dog snoring? Is that what we're hearing? Are we hearing your dog snoring?
- [51:37]
Len Penzo
You can hear that, can't you?
- [51:39]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I could, yes.
- [51:40]
Len Penzo
What? Who did I say was down in the game room right below me?
- [51:46]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's your son story.
- [51:49]
Doug
I thought it was just your breathing. Len, I was going to text you and say, len, hit mute, man. Hit mute. Because I can hear you mouth breathing.
- [51:58]
Len Penzo
I'm sorry.
- [51:59]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's okay. I just wanted to call it out so everybody knows we're not just super happy. But I love talking credit. No, it's good. It's fine.
- [52:12]
Len Penzo
I need to get a microphone. It's not so good. Goes back to the Yeti, I guess.
- [52:17]
Joe Saul-Sehy
No, no. God, no. God, no. Now we're getting nerdy people. Like, I don't even know what they're talking about. Please, God, don't do that. Yeah, we're gonna be fine just as long as everybody knows what's going on. But, Len, sticking with you for a second. You know, you mentioned Dave Ramsey.
- [52:31]
Len Penzo
Yeah.
- [52:32]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I don't think Dave Ramsey's wrong, though. Like, we should try. I understand that a credit score is important, but don't you think we should try to live without credit as much as possible?
- [52:42]
Len Penzo
Well, yeah, you can try anything, right? You can always aspire to do anything you want. But like OG said, there's. It's just impossible. Everything is tied to credit these days. So, yes, it's great if. For your own personal, I don't know, edification. Thank you. Very own pertifle edification. I think it's important that you not rely on credit if you don't need it. I mean, that's a level of freedom that you don't have when you always have to really, you know, use those credit cards as a crutch. So, yes, you should aspire to it, but the reality is I. I think you really do need to try and strive to have as high a credit score as you possibly can, at least to 740. I know. Let me. On credit scores. Let me know.
- [53:25]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I know.
- [53:25]
Len Penzo
People are like, you know, I got to get to 800 or I got to get to 850. It does. There's no bonus points. Once you get to 740, that's it. There's no bonus points for 750 or 760 or 780.
- [53:36]
OG
It's.
- [53:36]
Len Penzo
You're considered an excellent credit risk.
- [53:38]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And so then just after 740, just blow it up, man.
- [53:41]
Len Penzo
Yeah. Then you can get. Then you can. Well, yeah, go ahead.
- [53:45]
OG
I was going to say. What I was saying was where Dave misses the mark is he says, you don't need a credit score to live your life. And I would submit to you, you don't need credit. You can run your life on cash. You can run your life on debit cards, you know, and that's totally fine, but you still need to have a good credit score. And just saying why Dave Ramsey says you don't need a credit score? Well, because Dave Ramsey has $150 million in his checking account. So you're right. He doesn't need a credit score because he's in Dave Ramsey. You're not. And when you go to rent a car, they're going to go, I don't know who Jack Johnson is, but we don't take cash, bro.
- [54:21]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Even when Ramsey was young. When Ramsey was young, employers weren't checking out your credit as part of the hiring process.
- [54:29]
OG
True.
- [54:29]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Which doesn't happen everywhere, but it's happening more and more frequently.
- [54:32]
Len Penzo
More and more. Yeah.
- [54:33]
OG
Well. And it happens in jobs. I mean, there's different jobs, Len. Maybe in your job, there's a background check, and part of your background check is your financial situation.
- [54:44]
Len Penzo
Yes.
- [54:45]
OG
Right. Because that's Right. Depending on what your job is, like if you're a police officer and you're up to your eyeballs in debt, what does that mean? That could mean that you're susceptible to having to deal with that problem. And maybe, you know, you don't. You know, if you're a federal law enforcement guy. I was talking to a friend of mine about airline pilots as he was talking about his son and some medication his son was on. I said, hold on. Just so you know, there are some jobs when it comes to medicine that you become automatically disqualified for if you have taken a certain medication in your life. Not saying you shouldn't do it, because, you know, you got to be healthy, and if you need medicine, you got to have some certain medicine. But I think you got to be aware of what that downstream effect is. The same thing is true with your money. We have clients that work for the government. That every single year they have to submit a report of their net worth for that purpose. Right. Because they work in the government and the government needs to know, are you going to be the senator from New Jersey smuggling gold bars for the Russians? That happens. Like literally just happened, you know, so you gotta have good credit score.
- [55:51]
Len Penzo
You know what's interesting is Mendez.
- [55:53]
OG
Is that his name? Bob Mendez.
- [55:55]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Mendez, yeah.
- [55:56]
OG
Might not have been the Russians, but it was somebody. What? I always carry gold bars in my jacket that says US Senate on it. So who doesn't?
- [56:04]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You don't.
- [56:05]
OG
Sir, that briefcase worth of state secrets, what does that.
- [56:07]
Joe Saul-Sehy
My bad.
- [56:08]
OG
Oh, I was just doing some work from home.
- [56:10]
Joe Saul-Sehy
My bad.
- [56:11]
Len Penzo
You know, it's kind of interesting that especially when you're younger, it's really hard to even get your credit history established. I remember my daughter, it was hard for her to get her first credit card. Why? Because she didn't have credit. I mean, it's kind of like a catch 22. So what she had to do, you know, she had to go off and wherever there's other areas where you can make payments. Like for maybe if you got a car loan, a car. You went to a car dealer and you got bought a used car and you're just paying the dealer, making payments that way, you know, you have to do some. You have to look at other ways to make payments to establish that credit enough so even the credit card companies will approve you. And that's important too, because I think credit cards, you know, they do get a bad rap because of the. And rightly so, because of the interest they charge. But if you use them properly, they're a great tool for managing your money, and they're a great tool for getting rewards or even, you know, cash back or. We were talking earlier before the show about hotel points or airline points and building that if you use the credit cards responsibly, they're a fantastic tool. But you got to have the good credit to even usually get your foot in the door. And you can do that by paying your rent on time or doing things like that as well, paying your water bills and what have you, and that will help you along.
- [57:27]
OG
And there is no faster way to destroy it than not paying your water.
- [57:31]
Len Penzo
Bill on time or your rent or.
- [57:33]
OG
Your rent or your rent on time.
- [57:34]
Len Penzo
The landlords will wreck you as well.
- [57:36]
OG
And that's kind of tying this together. I think if you think you're responsible enough to borrow money, you need to be responsible enough to pay a little bit toward it every single month. And you know, I know. Len, you do this. Joe, you do this. Doug, probably as well. You know, if you're going to go play the credit card points game, you better have a system for making sure that you don't miss a payment. And that system needs to be auto pay, minimum payment. If you're not going to pay the whole thing, you got to pay at least the minimum if you're going to borrow money to go to school. It's really interesting. We're, we're kind of in this right now with Alex because he's on the precipice of making his college decision. One school, pretty expensive, a different school, mucho expensive. There's no like, inexpensive school in there in that mix. But we're reading a lot of Facebook posts and Reddit posts about these things, and people are like, oh my gosh, I got accepted to this place and it's so much money, but I got a free ride to this other place that's not as prestigious. What does everybody think? And the overwhelming response on the Internet is take the free thing, go get the free. Like, don't graduate with $200,000 of student loan debt. If someone's offering you a college diploma for zero debt, take the free thing. But if you're going to go take the $200,000 of student loan debt, if you're going to go to law school, if you're going to go get an mba, if you're going to be a physician, you better have a plan for paying that back. And the plan better not be like, well, I'm assuming the government's going to figure out a way to get me out of this somehow. If you're going to borrow money to go to school, you better plan on paying it back and having the system set up on the back end to do that.
- [59:17]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You $200,000 worth of debt, you got to be thinking ROI. You have to think return on investment.
- [59:22]
OG
Well, I mean, and you have to be getting after it immediately. I mean, think about that. You're borrowing, you're borrowing the, the purchase price of a house without the 30 year time horizon. The meter is running on that day one, so you better have a plan for that because you wake up, it's worth 300,000 in a heartbeat.
- [59:40]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's amazing to me how people won't. And Alex Haro talked about this at the beginning of the year, they won't pay $5,000 to get in the room with the right people that have the 100% ROI. We know what the ROI is ahead of time. I remember, Len, you told me the first year that I was going to go to fincon, you're like, think about the ROI before you go. Make sure that that trip pays for itself. So I made sure to line up enough discussions with brands that I like that it paid for, and it ended up paying for itself because I was thinking about it ahead of time. But the number of people that won't. Won't do that, but yet they'll do a $200,000 college education and not think ROI for one second. Just. No, I, I just want the degree. We're gonna dive more into that and the 201, our newsletter. We dive into all the topics of the show. Stacky benjamins.com 201 in the newsletter. Normally, on the back porch, we. And we've got some letters and some topics, guys, but these are really things that we need to dive into. So we're gonna handle those next week. But this back porch, it's been, what, a couple, maybe three, four weeks since we've talked to Mr. Penzo. What's happening@lempezo.com, man?
- [60:52]
Len Penzo
Well, I got the squirrel. Every Saturday, come see the Squirrel Cam. I got that. And it's the usual stuff, I think I tell you every time. Saturday is my big day where I, you know, that's where we do a lot of fun. Look at the memes and the tweets of the week for financial news. And I share the Squirrel Cam. I also have, just coincidentally, I have something called Top 40 Ways to Improve your credit score. So maybe I'll send that to you, Joe, and you can, maybe you can link.
- [61:17]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Fabulous. Great timing.
- [61:19]
Len Penzo
It's real simple. Remember, this is lenpenzo.com so this is simple read. It's just a list of 40 bullet points that you can do to improve your credit score. So I think you might like that. And let me just. Before I go, I'll give you one more tip. This is for the older guys. So we were talking about the young people and getting their credit established, that's difficult. But if you're older and you have good credit, you get a benefit. All of us, if you've, you know, you never make a late payment and you know, you've been using credit cards for 10, 20 years, and let's say you actually do forget to make that credit card payment, and then they've charged interest on your credit card, guess what? Call them up and tell them to ask them to waive the interest charge. This has happened to me twice in 20 years. And both times they did. The reason, of course, that I give them is, hey, I've never been late. It was lost in. Either I had an oversight or my.
- [62:09]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Dog ate the check.
- [62:10]
Len Penzo
The dog. Right. The check got lost in the mail. But whatever it is, if you appeal to them that you've never made a late payment and you know, this was a lax mistake most of the time, they will waive that payment if. If you've had an impeccable record all through there. So just. It's not all lost if you've actually made a mistake and you have established a very good payment history.
- [62:30]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You know, I'm glad you said that, Len, because another thing you said a long time ago on this show that has become increasingly easier. And it's funny, I was just getting a new credit card a couple weeks ago, upgrading my American Airlines card to a different one, but Citi had to stop halfway through, and they said, hey, it appears your credit's frozen and we can't see it. But for people haven't done it, and that's easier than ever. Like, it literally now is something. I know you. You were freezing your credit back when it was much more.
- [62:59]
Len Penzo
Yeah, it's much more onerous to do, but now you're right, it is absolutely super easy. I've. I've had my credit frozen since 2009, right when I started the blog, because I used my real name and I was like, this is crazy. I'm sharing my. All my financial information. I'm using my real name. So I had to freeze my credit. And it used to be a real pain in the butt to get it unfrozen, but now it is so easy. You go to the three credit card agencies. You can pick the exact time and day that you want your credit unfrozen. Let's say you want to apply for new credit somewhere in. On the same place. You can say, okay, and then refreeze it at this time. It is super easy. It's. It's not a burden at all.
- [63:35]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, to your point, this just happened last week, so I can tell you what happened. They told me specifically which credit agency. They said it was Equifax, so I knew which one. I go directly then to Equifax, not to the other two. And I toggle it and Equifax asks me to keep it. To your point, I could do it for any amount of time I wanted, but just to keep it simple, like, do you want this for 24 hours or indefinitely or a different time? And I just clicked 24 hours. I was like, that's fine.
- [64:02]
Len Penzo
Yeah. If you wanted it for six hours, they would do it. You can say between 12pm and 6pm on this day, I want it unfrozen. And they'll. And they'll do it for you.
- [64:11]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So, so, so simple around credit. And that's@lempezo.com the place where I learn. Number one, don't buy a hot tub. And number two, don't buy vegetables or fruit that have already been cut up at the grocery store.
- [64:24]
Len Penzo
And number three.
- [64:25]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And number three, click on all the.
- [64:27]
Len Penzo
Ads when you get there.
- [64:29]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That's the important one. Doug, take it from here, man. What should we. Besides those, what should we have learned on today's show?
- [64:37]
Doug
Well, Joe, first, take some advice from Molly Fletcher. Don't think about just getting motivated. Ask yourself, how do I keep the drive going? By focusing on managing energy, connecting, overcoming adversity, and most of all, focusing on what you're really playing for. Other than that championship, you'll find you can sustain excellence for longer than you'd expect it. Second, your credit. While it's important to know and maintain, it's better to try and operate without it if possible. Also, freezing your credit when you aren't using it is free and easier than ever. Do it right now. But the big lesson, don't practice your curveball for hours and then grovel on your knees begging Molly Fletcher to watch it. Turns out she isn't a sports agent anymore, which I would have known had I not been outside practicing my curveball during the entire interview. Yeah, thanks for that. Heads up, Joe. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025, and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome team@stackingbenjamins.com along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.
- [65:58]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, yeah.
- [65:58]
Doug
And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.
- [67:09]
OG
I think I'm up to like, 390,000.
- [67:12]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, my God.
- [67:13]
OG
Available.
- [67:14]
Joe Saul-Sehy
All right, Doug, let's do it.
- [67:16]
Doug
Just waiting for Josh to get done telling us his whole entire financial picture.
- [67:20]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Finish flexing.
- [67:21]
Doug
Yeah.
- [67:24]
OG
With Great power comes great responsibility.
- [67:28]
Doug
Three, two, one.
- [67:29]
OG
Doug, are you annoyed?
- [67:30]
Doug
Never by you. Josh, you've never once annoyed me in your entire life.
- [67:34]
OG
You should tell the story about when I skied down by myself and you were concerned that I fell into a crevasse.
- [67:39]
Doug
Oh, my God. Just about tore the whole friendship.
- [67:42]
OG
See, I knew that was gonna poke the bear. I knew as soon as I brought that up that would just totally.
- [67:47]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Wait a minute. Hold on. Len, do you ski?
- [67:49]
Len Penzo
I used to. My knee got so sore I can't do it anymore.
- [67:53]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I have never downhill skied. Just a lot of cross country skiing I've done. So, Doug, what happened?
- [67:59]
Doug
Do you want this now?
- [68:00]
OG
I want to hear Doug's version of this story.
- [68:01]
Len Penzo
Yeah, this was on the bunny hill too. I'm sure you thought he fell into it so bad.
- [68:06]
OG
It was on the magic carpet. The magic carpet one. Where is Og? Oh my God. We can't find him. Go ahead, tell your version of the story.
- [68:14]
Doug
My version.
- [68:15]
OG
There's two versions.
- [68:17]
Doug
There's three because Finn was there too. So there were two of us that both had the exact same story.
- [68:22]
OG
So there's two versions.
- [68:23]
Len Penzo
Are you recording this? Are you recording this? Because this is your after show.
- [68:26]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, this totally is our after show.
- [68:29]
OG
So there we were skiing in California. I'll set the stage. And you guys.
- [68:34]
Joe Saul-Sehy
We went out to Tahoe together. Len, this is like. You should have the Keystone Cops music playing. The two of these guys travel.
- [68:41]
Len Penzo
You just had the picture. You posted the picture on Facebook. I just saw a picture of you guys.
- [68:45]
Doug
That was when everybody was still happy was early on. And nobody knew the dark clouds that were forming at that very moment. What preceded this moment. There were many runs where, let's just say Finn and I skied a little bit faster than OG does. And. And. And there was perhaps a run.
- [69:11]
OG
It's not a race. It's not a race. Just to be clear. Apparently you think it is, but everybody.
- [69:17]
Doug
Has a natural pace.
- [69:19]
OG
Yours is straight line down the down as fast as I can.
- [69:22]
Doug
I am far from straight lining. But anyway, I might have gotten mother several times prior to this family show.
- [69:30]
OG
Once.
- [69:31]
Doug
I know you're going to bleep that out. I was counting on the BLEEP there, but I had been cursed out a couple of times on one run.
- [69:38]
OG
One time.
- [69:40]
Doug
Okay. And so then go to the next day. And we're on one side of Heavenly, which is in California. And we wanted to traverse. There's a long traverse near the top that gets you all the way over to the Nevada side. And we talked about wanting to go to a particular lift. Off of this traverse are several places where it would take you into the back bowls and not necessarily hills that would have been good for og. So we're gliding along down this thing, and my skis are tuned, and I just glide kind of fast without. I mean, you're just on a cat track. You're just. There's no pitch to this thing, basically, but I just kind of glide. I don't know why I do. And so does Finn. And I knew. Oh, geez. Behind us. So I get to a spot where I think, okay, it's time to take a break and rest and make sure that everybody's together.
- [70:34]
OG
Mother henning the group, as it were.
- [70:38]
Doug
I wait for what turns out to be at least 30 minutes. Closing in on somewhere between 30 and 40 minutes. Can't find OG anywhere. Finn has joined me. We're waiting. I know it was 30 or 40 because Finn was behind me, and I had been there at least five to seven minutes before Finn joined me. And then I'm looking at my watch and it's another 25.
- [71:02]
Joe Saul-Sehy
How long are these runs? These must be huge. Long, long, long runs.
- [71:06]
Doug
Well, this particular traverse is long, but it's really just because we got separated. So not all of that was skiing time. It was just me standing there waiting. And it's in the cat track.
- [71:16]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. I'm just saying, for you to wait 25 minutes means there's a lot of mountain up the hill from you.
- [71:22]
Doug
Well, not only that, but there's a lot of places where things could have gone.
- [71:25]
OG
Also, there's a lot of mountain down the hill from where he was during.
- [71:27]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That 25 minutes, it turns out, apparently.
- [71:30]
OG
Turns out.
- [71:31]
Doug
And also a bar. Yeah. And so I stop at this. At this one spot. Finn joins me a few minutes later, and we wait and wait and wait, and there's just hundreds of people floating past us, and we're looking for. For him and. And can't find him anywhere. And I think, oh, gosh, Finn, if he ended up turning right at that. At that spot or that other spot, he's down in the back bowl. And he is in bad shape right now. And we're really getting worried. We were both pretty worried about him. We're trying to text him nothing. I'm trying to find him on Find my Nothing. And I'm. I'm legit worried about this guy. Wait a minute.
- [72:13]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You put a tracker on OG and Air?
- [72:15]
Doug
Well, there's two things.
- [72:16]
OG
Air tag me.
- [72:17]
Doug
Yeah, we did on his Dog collar.
- [72:20]
Len Penzo
Find My is so unreliable anyways. It's totally unreliable.
- [72:25]
Doug
Yeah, we had a couple of different ways of trying to track each other, you know, using the Epic app and using Apple. Find My. Yeah, but we were legitimately worried because, I mean, I'll just try to put this as nicely as. As possible. OG hasn't have as much skiing experience as Finn and I. Absolutely. We were. We were worried about his well being. Finally, we just like. Well, we said we were going to meet down at this spot and we're just getting ready to go. And I think Finn gets a text saying in third person, by the way.
- [72:59]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, geez.
- [73:00]
Doug
At the bar, I. I was immediately just incensed, overjoyed by the fact that.
- [73:12]
OG
I was found safe and sound.
- [73:14]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Overjoyed that he's fine.
- [73:15]
Doug
Oh, my God. We. I was. We actually ended up helping a woman who had taken the wrong turn and she had climbed herself out of the back bowl. Like, I'm like, this is what happened to, like. Did you see a guy down there in a red and black coat who was screaming the F bomb repeatedly.
- [73:34]
Len Penzo
So, Doug, you're the type of guy, time is money on the ski slope, right? I mean, you. So I can see what you're doing. I can see what Doug's saying. It's like, I just lost three or four runs because. Trips down the down one of the runs because I was sitting here waiting.
- [73:47]
Doug
Yeah.
- [73:48]
Len Penzo
So I unders. I under. I feel your pain, Doug. But I also sympathize with OG because I. I'm not the world's greatest. I was never was the world's greatest skier. And I was always like the slowest guy, too. So I. I feel your pain, og.
- [74:02]
Doug
So. And it was very much like having kids because it started, Len, with me being pissed that I missed out on three or four great runs. And then it turned into worry. Like, this guy is. He's in a tree. Well, somewhere, and we're going to find him in June. And I'm.
- [74:24]
OG
You're like, we're going to find him in June. We're going to find. I made my family disappear. I made my family disappear.
- [74:31]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Who wears a skiing outfit in June?
- [74:33]
Doug
Yeah, exactly.
- [74:35]
OG
Sir, sir, you're not supposed to be here.
- [74:39]
Doug
So, yeah, I was. I was pretty pissed. And then we. We get down, we get the OGs at the bar, and I'm pissed that he's speaking about himself in the third person, let alone.
- [74:51]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Which shows you, by the way. That shows you specifically how long he's.
- [74:55]
OG
Been at the bar by that point. Like, These guys are taking forever. I should probably text him and make sure they're okay.
- [75:00]
Doug
How long he's been doing the show. He used his stage name in the damn text. Oh, he is so full of himself. And I'm. I'm just livid. And we get down there and find him at the bar, and then he says, oh, I was standing right next to you guys. I told you that I was just going to go. Go ahead. He claims to have been standing right next to us. And Finn and I are like, no, that never happened. There's two of us. It wasn't just me. Like, maybe I was oblivious or had some altitude dizziness or whatever. Nope, there's two of us. Who corroborated the fact that he was not neither standing right next to us, nor did he say, I'm going to head on down to the bar. And then it came out later that he's like, all right, well, in all honesty, I might have been 100 yards away from you guys.
- [75:48]
OG
I was not 100. I didn't say.
- [75:50]
Doug
I feel like climbing back up the hill to make sure you heard me.
- [75:53]
OG
Didn't say 100. I was probably 20 yards at best from them for about five of those 20 minutes that he was talking about. And I'm going, what are these idiots talking about? Let's freaking go. What are we doing? And then finally, I'm like, all right, I'll see you later. And I just kind of wave. And I went. And then. And then after about 20 minutes, I was like, I hope those guys are okay. They probably took a bad turn into the back bowls. I might find them in a tree. Well, someday in June, I should probably text them. But between all that, I spilled a beer in my helmet. There was a whole thing that I had to deal with personally. And then I. Then, you know, I put my helmet back on, and it was. It was like a beer helmet, but the wrong way. It was. I had my own struggles that day.
- [76:35]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Honestly, this is what it's like working with teenagers, Len.
- [76:38]
Len Penzo
I'm just. You wear a helmet. Is that. Is that what they do now in skiing? Everybody wears a helmet?
- [76:43]
Doug
Everybody.
- [76:44]
Len Penzo
You know, let me real quick before.
- [76:46]
Joe Saul-Sehy
No, no, he doesn't wear skiing. He wore it to the bar. He wears a helmet when he goes to the bar, because you get to that third Woodford, who knows what's going to happen on that stool?
- [76:54]
Len Penzo
You know, people wear helmets everywhere nowadays. I never wore a helmet skiing. We. We did some white water rafting and some pretty. Pretty rough rapids way back when. And I have a picture of us all in the. In the raft. None of us have helmets on. You did that. Now they. They arrest the river guide. And, I mean, it's just. It's funny how that things have changed over the years, Len.
- [77:15]
Joe Saul-Sehy
We were whitewater rafting and a tributary to the Columbia river down in the. In the river gorge by Portland, and we all had helmets on. But we've got this fantastic picture of all of us paddling, and Cheryl's getting ejected out the bag.
- [77:31]
Doug
She is.
- [77:32]
Joe Saul-Sehy
She's maybe 8ft high. And it was amazing. Our guide, who, you know is on the tiller at the back, just very casually reaches out and scoops her up and, you know, she goes under, and he's got his hand on her, scoops her up and pulls her back in as if he does this on every random Tuesday.
- [77:49]
Len Penzo
My buddy's wife fell out. Now, remember, none of us have helmets, and this is some pretty rough. She fell out and she went downriver probably a quarter mile. And she lived to tell about it.
- [78:01]
Joe Saul-Sehy
She went downriver. We've never seen her since. Yeah, that's ugly.
- [78:07]
Doug
I don't know if I did that story justice, but the rage boiling inside of me was as strong as it's been.
- [78:14]
Len Penzo
No, I know. I know.
- [78:16]
OG
He held it together pretty well, though, on the back end, I'll be honest. There weren't any swear words. There was a little silence on the drive back to the hotel.
- [78:25]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I'm glad you're okay.
- [78:27]
OG
I mean, he gave me a very stern talking to. I was very. I was. He was like, listen, I'm not mad. I'm just. We were worried about you. And I'm like, okay. I mean, I'm damn near the same age as you are, bro, but cool.
- [78:41]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I love you.
- [78:41]
Doug
I actually said that, Joe. I actually said that. Go ahead, you finish. What? You. What your version of this was. Og.
- [78:48]
OG
Oh, you. That's what you said. I'm not mad. I'm just. We were very worried about you. And I was just like, okay. I mean, cool. I guess it's not weird. But anyway. Do you need a painter?
- [78:58]
Len Penzo
Hey, you know, somebody called me OG the other day.
- [79:02]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Did they really?
- [79:03]
Len Penzo
Yeah, somebody called me Og, And I was like, oh, you know, I'm not og. And they said, oh, old guy. That's what. OG stands out for me.
- [79:10]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Old guy. You must be old guy. That's funny.
- [79:17]
OG
And then I up my pace the next day. I've decided to let these guys have their fun for the first couple days. And then on the last day, I was like, all right, I'll just ski with them from now on. And Doug turns around, he goes, oh, look at. Learned how to ski all of a sudden.
- [79:30]
Doug
Yeah. Where the was this two days ago?
- [79:34]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That's what I went to a charity golf event. And Josh, you know. You know Tom Smith. So I'm with Tom and. What else his wife's name.
- [79:43]
OG
Amy.
- [79:43]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, Amy. Tom and Amy and one other person. And we're the. We're the foursome on this scramble that we're doing. And, you know, the first seven holes, I just play, like, absolute dribble 20 yards because I don't know what I'd do. And I never golf. And then the back nine, every drive, it's going right down the middle. And my shots all of a sudden turned on. Tom just turns to me very succinctly and very matter of factly goes, joe, you ever heard of a driving range?
- [80:17]
Len Penzo
That's great.
- [80:18]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I'm like, no, the front nine's my driving range. Like, no, the reason we're in last is because you haven't contributed until the last, like, six holes of this. So anyway.