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The Stacking Benjamins Show
Climbing the Wealth Ladder: Conquering Retirement Fears (with Mark Trautman) SB1713
01:03:50
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- [00:00]
Joe Saul-Sehy
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- [00:31]
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- [01:04]
Doug
My podcast has a first name. It's S T A C K. My podcast has a second name. It's B E N J A H. Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the stacking Benjamin. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and all week long we've given you the tools to climb the wealth ladder. Today we'll talk about what's holding you back from climbing the ladder with three experts in this very field. Is it fear? Procrastination? The deep rumble of Joe's mom's Harley surrounding you in a cold blanket of fear as though it were the sinister laugh of some unseen specter of certain failure? I mean, you know, like just off the top of my head we'll tackle smashing these obstacles. It was just an example Ma these obstacles and more over the next hour. Plus, that's not all we'll pause halfway through this riveting discussion for our year long trivia competition. Can our special guest help OG from running away with this prize before the end of the summer? We'll find out. And now a guy who reaches for those big money goals like they're the hidden Oreos above the refrigerator that Cheryl doesn't know about. It's Joe Saul Sei.
- [02:36]
Joe Saul-Sehy
The big question, Doug, is how do you know about those Oreos?
- [02:39]
Doug
Cuz I see your belly hanging out from under your shirt every time you reach up high.
- [02:44]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That is a knife, my friend. Holy cow. Welcome welcome to the More Graphic that We Really Wanted podcast. I am Joe Salsihai and you can see Doug is ready to roll on this. He's not afraid. We're going to hopefully help you not be afraid to climb the wealth ladder. We've been talking about how to invest in different stages of your life all week. We set it up on Monday, Wednesday, our friend Nick Booli was here. And now we have these characters. So let's introduce them. The woman who is not afraid of fear, even though she lives way up in a high rise in Manhattan. Mr. Mister. Mister.
- [03:21]
Paula Pant
Mister. Mr. Paula Pant. Mr. Paula Pant. I mean, my name could very well be Paul, middle name A. And Paul A. Pant.
- [03:30]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Pant.
- [03:31]
Paula Pant
Right, Exactly. So I could be Mr. Paul Pant. Actually, sometimes I get junk mail that is addressed to Paul Pant. So there's a whole like invisible wrong junk mail person.
- [03:42]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Just imagine if your life were different, you would have decided to create like a jeans company. Like that would have been. Yeah, just, you know, amazing.
- [03:48]
Paula Pant
I have a Google alert set up for my name and every now and again I'll get a Google alert about some clothing company that has released a line of pants called the Paula Pant. And so obviously I click. Every time I click the link, you immediately sue them. No, no, no. But I always click the link and I check out what kind of pants around the world are named for me.
- [04:09]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. And are they great pants?
- [04:10]
Paula Pant
They're always great pants.
- [04:12]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And somebody who I'm sure is wearing great pants in Upstate New York, Mr. Jesse Cravers here. How are you, man?
- [04:21]
Jesse Kramer
I'm glad this, this camera is really kind of chest up because we're going to. It's going to be a mystery, you know, the whole pants, no pants, Paula pants. It's going to be a mystery for the rest of this recording. But I'm doing well to answer your question. Doing well.
- [04:32]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You thought pants were optional for this whole stacking Benjamins recording, did you? Yeah.
- [04:36]
Jesse Kramer
Mean, how is my belly supposed to hang out as I climb the ladder to the cookies if I'm wearing pants? I know these are the deep questions.
- [04:42]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That's just graphic. I go to the. I'll have you know, Doug, I go to the gym at least once a month. We are super happy because the man behind the mastermind behind Mark's money mind is finally back. The Mark Tropman is here. How are you, man?
- [04:58]
Mark Tropman
I am doing awesome. How are you guys doing?
- [05:01]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, we're better now that you are here, my friend. I feel like I haven't seen you in forever. What have you been up to?
- [05:08]
Mark Tropman
Well, I moved to Longmont, so that's a big Deal. And I have just come back from two campfires and I'm going back again this weekend for a third. Oh, my goodness. In Colorado Springs.
- [05:20]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So, yeah, Stephen Boyer give you some type of a card and you get like a frequent flyer discount?
- [05:25]
Mark Tropman
No, but we do need a season pass. I have talked about that. It hasn't happened yet, but maybe one of these days we'll have a season pass.
- [05:31]
Jesse Kramer
We'll see.
- [05:32]
Mark Tropman
And my friend Kevin Sebastis said to say hi. He is going to all four of those camps in Colorado Springs.
- [05:38]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So, yeah, I think that guy has the frequent flyer pass or the season pass. And he doesn't let on that he's got it because he's always at those things. So you have been a podcasting, like man on fire lately. You've been podcasting more than I've seen you podcast. What's going on there?
- [05:54]
Mark Tropman
Well, it was just kind of a hobby project. A number of people asked me to kind of put it together. I thought, hey, it'll be fun. I'll do it. I don't really have any advertisers. I have no intention on advertising. So it's just kind of a fun project. I just like to talk into a microphone and if people listen, great. But you know, I go to places like Economy and a whole bunch of people come up and say, I really like the show. So I guess people do listen. All three of them.
- [06:19]
Joe Saul-Sehy
He's got one more listener that we have on Stacking Benjamins. So tell our stackers out there, Mark, exactly what it is that you cover. Is it a wide range of stuff or mostly financial independence? Retire early or what is it?
- [06:32]
Mark Tropman
I teach a financial literacy class in the high school. And so originally I was thinking it would be, you know, for that younger audience, but there was a lot of people in the kind of FI community that listen as well. So it kind of goes basics and beyond, I guess you would say. But a lot of it is just, you know, whatever's on my mind and I riff on topics that are in the FI community or do a live pop up podcast at campfire, wherever, and it just kind of goes from there. So it's. I never know what.
- [07:02]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, I never know what's coming next. And that's the fun of it. And Mark's money mind we can find wherever we listen to podcasts, right?
- [07:08]
Mark Tropman
Correct. Yes.
- [07:09]
Doug
Yeah.
- [07:09]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Good deal. Well, we've got. When Doug said we've got three experts, these are truly three people I think of that have helped a ton of people fight fear. I know. So Many people have talked to mark at these Camp 5 meetings like Mark. They've taken you aside and gone. I don't know if I can retire yet or not. And you've kind of looked at their numbers and helped push them off the quote cliff as it was into better days. Paul won't afford anything. Jesse on the Piff Fit Geeky podcast to put it personal finance for long term investors podcast, you do the same thing. So we're going to dive into this idea of we're trying to climb the wealth ladder. Like why aren't we moving faster? So we're going to do that in just a second. But unlike Mark, we do have some sponsors that make sure that we can keep on keeping on. You're not going to pay a dime for this goodness. So we're going to hear from them. And then Paula, Mark, Jesse, Doug and I are going to cover conquering your retirement fear. Do you remember the time before the Internet ruled our lives? Well before that time, AOL brought America Online with email and Instant messenger. By 2000, AOL was so powerful it set his sights on media giant Time Warner. Deal was supposed to bring us into the future, but instead it became one of the messiest corporate disasters on record. But what went wrong? Was it culture clashes, the dot com crash, or something deeper? Business wars gives you a front row seat to the biggest moments in business and how they shape our world. Because when your flight perks disappear, your favorite restaurant chain goes bankrupt, or new tech reshapes everything overnight, there's always a deeper story behind the headlines. Follow Business wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can binge all episodes of Business wars, the AOL Time Warner Disaster early and ad free right now on Wondery Plus. This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal can help you find and finance the right vehicle with ease. With Navy Federal's car buying service, powered by Truecar, you can find the vehicle that's right for you as you search through inventory, compare models so and you could get an amazing rate when you finance with Navy Federal. Visit navy federal.org truecar to learn more. Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Credit and collateral subject to approval. The inspiration for today's discussion comes to us from a blog post. And again, like one that we did just a couple weeks ago. This is from all the way back in 2016. But what I found amazing was how much this still applies today. So many of the Same concepts from 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, not changing. There's so much less that's quote, new than we think there is. The thing that caught my eye was that this blogger's headline was fear will hold you prisoner. A diversified portfolio will set you free. I'm like, wait, what diversified portfolio set you free from fear? But let's talk about what really happens when fear holds you back. Mark, I mentioned before we got rolling that you've helped people one on one at Camp Fi. You've sat with them, you've encouraged them to jump into the great unknown. What is this fear holding people back back from that they're not experiencing their life?
- [10:47]
Mark Tropman
Well, I think for most people in the financial independence community is running out of money, right? That's the main fear. And there are ways to solve that. The other thing is you're trying to solve for a timeline with an unknown end date. And I think that's usually the biggest issue for most people is will my money last and how long am I going to live? And so forth. And I kind of have gravitated. I've been retired now for 10 years. And that was kind of one of the things that I was concerned about at the beginning. I have been listening to another podcaster who is a professor up at CSU that my daughter went to. So that was actually how I found that first podcast called the Retirement and IRA Show. But they talk about kind of solving spending for your kind of what they call minimum dignity floor, but I call kind of base good life, kind of the Roger Whitney base good life approach. And you can do that through especially as a mighty like me that's older part of it is Social Security. If you have a pension, that's part of it. And then the other thing is you can buy that evil annuity, the single premium immediate annuity, which I actually like, or at least put money aside to do that. And if you have your base costs covered for the rest of your life with kind of secure, guaranteed lifetime income, it is a really big freedom to allow that excess of your portfolio above that to. To do the fun stuff. So that's one of the things that was beneficial to me to kind of learn over time.
- [12:14]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And I was actually. I didn't stop you, Mark, because I love all of that. And those are some big keys to getting to where you want to go. But the question I was trying to ask was we see so many people hold themselves back. She talks about workplace for a lot of people in this piece that we're riffing on where they see it as a prison, right. And you get out of this, quote, prison and now you've got this, this whole different life. But for you, when you retired, like what did you get that you didn't have before? Because I feel like most people when they're afraid, it feels like they're stepping out in the unknown. But truthfully, I think it's holding people back from this world of opportunity that they could have if they just pushed through the fear.
- [12:53]
Mark Tropman
Right. The biggest thing is time freedom. I mean that's the joy of financial independence, is having control over your time. So I think that's really the primary factor that maybe can help you overcome that fear because you will be able to get that time back that you may not otherwise have.
- [13:08]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And is that, do you think, Paula, the main reason people let fear dictate them is that we know what we're going to do in our nine to five, but we don't know what we're going to do with all this time freedom that Mark's talking about.
- [13:20]
Paula Pant
There's an element of that because when you strip away the excuses, JD Roth talks about this, it's easy to tell yourself that I have not achieved X or Y or Z. I don't have six pack abs because I'm so busy working. And then when that goes away, you're like, well, I don't have six pack abs because I like to sit on the couch. Once your excuses go away, you're left facing the truth. And I think deep down many people know that. And so there is an element of fear that comes from that.
- [13:51]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You mean we're afraid? We're going to have to look in the mirror and see that there's a little BS going on.
- [13:55]
Paula Pant
So you see the flabby abs?
- [13:57]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:58]
Paula Pant
What is it? The shirt sticking out over your, the belly sticking out over yours?
- [14:02]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Not even a thing.
- [14:04]
Doug
I'm so glad I started that.
- [14:06]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It is not even a thing. I don't know what the hell. But Jesse, what's interesting that I found especially for some engineers is that when you give them numbers, maybe it's the numbers sometimes help people push through the fear. Like just showing them in black and white, a third party going, you know what, it's okay to be afraid, but look at the numbers, you can actually do it. Some of the things Mark talked about.
- [14:28]
Jesse Kramer
Earlier, for some people, I totally agree with you. Like for some people it is the numbers that will set them free. And but for others though, I don't know, I don't think that numbers really do it. I Think it's maybe more just about, like, stories for other people that do it. Whether it's like a cautionary tale that will help them show, you know, maybe what will happen if they choose not to break free from their career or something like that. But, yeah, ultimately, end of the day, I was, as you were asking Mark and Paul these questions and going through the answers, I was kind of listening myself. And sometimes I think to myself there's this, like, this little, like, bit of existentialism that we all have somewhere in our brain where it's like, it's the same reason why some of us think that the world is going to end. Like, if you go back in history and you read accounts from people for the last thousand years, everybody at some point is like, yeah, I'm pretty sure the world is ending around me right now. And they've all been wrong. It's like, okay, now that I'm approaching middle age, maybe I'm there. I don't know. I'll let you define it, but I kind of feel that too. I think there's something there where it's like people are just worried that bad luck is going to strike them and the worst outcome is going to strike them. And I tell you what, if I'm about to retire tomorrow and part of my brain is convinced that bad luck is about to strike me, well, maybe I won't retire then. The safe choice is to stay employed. So I think there's some sort of. I'm not a psychologist. I just watch them on tv. But I think there's something going on there.
- [15:47]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. How big a part do you think, Mark? Just the fact that the status quo, life is okay. It's a. Like, the fact that life is a 7 out of 10 holds us back. When things are good enough, that it's okay, you realize it's not great, but also it could get worse.
- [16:03]
Mark Tropman
Yeah. And change is very hard for people. It is usually easy to just stay with what you're doing and not make any major changes. I would say that was, for me, there was like a major kind of situation in work that I just wanted to get away from. And that was kind of the, you know, impetus to leave. So usually it's something.
- [16:22]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Were you working with Doug? Were you working with Doug? Is that what happened?
- [16:26]
Mark Tropman
No, no, no, no. I masked it all out. But again, like you were saying, or like Jesse was saying, you're always like, well, what if this happens? And what if this happens? And I find people in the financial independence community are always calculating everything on the absolute worst case outcome and I can retired for 10 years. It didn't happen to me. In fact it was actually a good wind at my back. Now that may not happen for everyone going forward, but certainly the worst case didn't happen. And many of those worst case scenarios really just kind of fall by the wayside. But that is what most people especially kind of the engineering kind of math brain people worry about. And for the most part at least all the retirees that I know that have been kind of doing this for a decade, not only was it it not bad, but it was actually really good. Now of course we had a great, you know, 10 year period over the last 10 years that.
- [17:15]
Joe Saul-Sehy
But you know what Mark? I've been to a few campfires, nowhere near the number you've been to, but it feels like so every time for people haven't been to these camps. Stephen Boyer, the creator, he lets people suggest topics and then you do usually three or four different breakouts based on just what people want to talk about. And I think Mark, every single campfire I've been to one more year syndrome is one of the topics that rises to the top. And one year more syndrome for people that don't know what it is, it's I'm just going to keep doing it one more year. The math already works out. Everything looks fine. But give me one more year. Do you notice that too that that's at almost every campfire?
- [17:54]
Mark Tropman
Yeah, it's usually one of the frequently the case study participants. That's what they're struggling with. So should I work one more year? I have seen a shift in the camps where there's more discussion about actually life after financial independence is becoming one of the top subjects for breakouts. And then of course drawdown strategy is right up there as well. And although side hustles and things like that have not always been on the list when previously they were like number two, number three, you know. So yeah, it's shifting. I think there is a shift in the community a little bit and that's interesting.
- [18:26]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Paula. I do think to Mark's point that if we just examine what we would do after that may calm us down like bleeding retirement or whatever the next step, life away from whatever this thing that I'm in now, like dreaming more about that will help us make the switch and maybe calm some of the fear. Yeah.
- [18:44]
Paula Pant
You know, I think it turns fear into excitement because then you're not retiring from something, you're retiring to something.
- [18:51]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Wow, did you just create that tm? I mean we got to put a TM after that.
- [18:54]
Paula Pant
Never heard that. Many, many minds before me have said that. But I think that if you are simply trying to escape a bad scenario, like let's say you work with Doug, right?
- [19:06]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Right. Oh, yeah.
- [19:07]
Doug
I can see you're all having a good time with this.
- [19:10]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, I'm glad, Paula. Paula. I'm glad we started that one.
- [19:17]
Paula Pant
I love you, Doug, but no, let's say you're trying to escape a bad scenario. Often all you're focused on is getting out of this bad scenario because the day to day experience of your life is being in the muc and being in the stress. And so it's really hard to see what's next because all you want is the absence of what is. The more that you can think beyond that, the more that you can think. All right, you know what? I'm going to volunteer with animals and, you know, I'll be fostering puppies and I'll be going to the gym and I'll be planting a garden and I'm kind of interested in writing children's books. The more you think about that, the more that fear turns into excitement.
- [19:59]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Jesse, you work in a financial planning practice. Back when I was a financial planner, it always drove me crazy when people would say, oh, I'm going to travel and play golf. Like that was for a lot of people, the default answer. And I thought, what Paul is saying, where you're getting more gritty about what you're going to do. So, so much better than just saying, yeah, I'm going to travel. Like if we give it some actual thought, even if you're going to travel, listing off, you know, 10 places you want to go and where you're going to stay and the things you're going to do are so much better. You got to see the same thing. I would think.
- [20:27]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah, the word that comes to mind is purpose. And as much fun as traveling or playing golf is for some retirees, it usually doesn't scratch that purpose itch. And that's why eventually it kind of becomes a little more hollow than they would have otherwise anticipated. Occasionally I'll hear a story from someone who's like, well, I've always loved golf. Right Now I'm a 15 handicap and my mission in retirement is get down to like a single digit handicap. And that actually is kind of maybe if you're not a golfer, that sounds shallow to you, but for some people that's enough purpose to actually drive them, which is kind of interesting. But for most people, it's there's got to be something that's a little more purpose driven in their retirement, whether it's volunteering and teaching, contributing your time to some sort of nonprofit, spending time with grandkids is a huge one. Right? That's the reason why a lot of retirees maybe relocate to be closer to family. I think a lot of people, they think of the leisure. I've used this metaphor before where if you're taking a two week vacation this summer, you know what you're going to do in those two weeks. And a lot of people accidentally or maybe inappropriately, they think of retirement as the series of week long vacations. So I'm going to go golfing, I'm going to go have go eat some nice dinners, I'm going to have some drinks on the deck. And it's like, well, that's not really what retirement is. There's something more to it.
- [21:41]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Jesse Christine Ben's book full of interviews last year, where they began with treating retirement more like a job, like my job is to get to a single digit handicap, gives you this timeline. Last week we talked about good goal setting and setting smart goals, which everybody's heard of, but people don't do all that much. And you know, you start to see the, the milestones on getting there and you start thinking about your technique and the things that you're going to do, like applying that to anything in retirement. All right back Mark, to you and where you were headed though. This woman, this blogger says that a diversified portfolio set her free. Can you explain? I don't want to get too much into this piece because people listening don't have it in front of them. But how the hell does a diversified portfolio help free you from fear moving into retirement?
- [22:28]
Mark Tropman
Yeah, I didn't quite get that link by reading the article necessarily.
- [22:32]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I didn't either. I'm like, wait, what?
- [22:34]
Mark Tropman
Because there wasn't a lot of discussion behind the headline. I have found that having a resource of cash within my portfolio reduces my fear. Like I know where my paycheck is going to come from for a period of time. So in the retirement phase being, you know, whatever it is, 75, 25 or 60, 40 or 80, 20 or whatever. And also I have found personally that having my portfolio's income not reinvested is a nice cash flow element to the portfolio that allows me to comfort. And I'm also spending at a relatively low withdrawal rate. But that's not how I define what I want to spend. I spend what I want to spend, but it happens to be A low withdrawal rate. That gives me comfort. And I guess if you had real estate and you had cash flow coming in from those properties, that would give you comfort. I have a friend, his approach to financial independence was owning a number of properties, and he gets comfort by the fact that all these rents are coming in from a diversified portfolio and, and that lets him be retired. So, I mean, it doesn't have to be just from a portfolio. Just, you know, where is the cash coming from and how are you going to access it, whether it's cash flowing property or cash flowing assets or having potentially a more conservative portfolio. So I think those are the elements of making people sleep well at night and being comfortable.
- [23:52]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. Did you get that from this piece too, Paula, that just sleeping at night because she knew where her consistent income was going to come from?
- [23:59]
Paula Pant
Not quite.
- [24:00]
Jesse Kramer
So.
- [24:00]
Paula Pant
The thing that struck me was when she said earlier in the article that even Mr. Money Mustache himself sent her an email saying, I've looked at your numbers and your numbers are sound. Yeah, your numbers are good. And even that was not enough to make her fear go away. To me, what that says is that she couldn't and probably wisely didn't want to rely on the voices of outside people. She wanted to rely on mathematical projections and spreadsheets. So if an outside trusted person was saying, I've looked at your numbers and they're good, she doesn't want to just take his word for it. Versus, if she herself has a diversified portfolio and can see historically, like, what's the standard deviation on this? What are the range of possible outcomes? All right, let's model this out. What if it performs at the worst that it's ever performed in the last 50 years? What I took from it was that when she saw what that portfolio might be able to produce, knowing that it was diversified, knowing that she didn't have excess concentration of risk, she was better able to calm down.
- [25:09]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Is that something we should be asking our financial planners, Jesse? I mean, should we be asking them not just to help me project and sign off on it, but explain, like, the mechanisms by which we're going to make this retirement income stream a reality?
- [25:24]
Jesse Kramer
I think it's important for people to understand it's not enough just to trust. If you are working with a financial planner, a professional, it's not enough just to, like, trust them and trust that they have their hands on the wheel. That's a really good start. But it's always better if you as the client feel like you truly understand what's going on underneath the hood. Because I think there are, sometimes there are some problems when as the investor, as the retiree, you're sitting there saying to yourself like, well, I've been told I'm okay, but if I had to explain it to my spouse, I couldn't explain why we're okay because they told me so. And that is a little bit of a problem because when it hits the fan, when the market tanks, or if you end up withdrawing a little too much out of your portfolio, if you can't then sit down and explain to yourself why that was a problem, you might either overreact or you just might not react at all when you ought to. There's nothing wrong with working with a professional who can show you why you're going to be okay, who can show you why you shouldn't be living in fear. But you have to be able to understand that well enough yourself to truly internalize it. It's just like in school. It's one thing when a teacher can explain to you what a topic is, but at the end of the day, like, you have to sit down and pass the test yourself using the knowledge inside your own head. And I think that's a pretty good corollary to how I would want people to think about their retirements.
- [26:39]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I love that analogy. I've used a similar one which is, you know, you're the CEO of your life and you surround yourself with these advisors and I don't know any CEO that would say, well, Larry said I'm good. Larry said the car is going to run, so we're fine. The CEO still has to know enough about the car and how it runs to be able to, you know, talk to everybody about exactly why the car is going to run. And so that's, I, I don't need Larry to check the box. I need Larry to tell me exactly. Make me smarter. Yeah, good stuff. We're going to dive in. In the second half. You know, I thought about, okay, what creates a lot of these fears? Well, I'm not the only one thinking that ARP has a piece where they have five fears. And we're going to ask our panel to dive into these five fears that people have when they are ready to retire. How do we conquer those? That's coming up next. But halfway through the Stacking Benjamin show, we have this year long competition between our frequent contributors Jesse, Paula and OG. OG's not here today. So Mark, you're playing on behalf of og, which means I got some good news for you and some bad news, my friend. Which one do you want first?
- [27:51]
Mark Tropman
Oh, boy. Let's go with the bad news.
- [27:53]
Joe Saul-Sehy
The bad news is, and I always hate it when our guest has to guess first, but because you and OG Are kicking these guys ass, you're going to be guessing first because first place goes last. In fact, let's talk about how much Doug, Phil, Mark, and. And our stackers. And what is the score so far in this year long competition?
- [28:15]
Doug
Well, Joe, Paula has an embarrassingly low 5.5 points. Jesse, just a little bit less embarrassing at 6.5 points. OG is sitting back with his feet up on the lanai and a drink in his hand with 10 points.
- [28:32]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Which means, Mark, we really need you to give a bad answer today.
- [28:36]
Mark Tropman
Well, going first is very difficult because you have no parameters to work with.
- [28:40]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, and you've been on the show before. And for people that have never listened to our Friday trivia, these answers are always very close to ungettable. We do that on purpose. So it's a little bit of a dart throwing expedition, but Doug's holding the dart. Doug, what's untapped today for our trivia question?
- [28:57]
Doug
I just want to coach Mark a little bit more. Mark, you probably remember, I'm sure you listen to every Friday show, the trivia questions on Friday shows are the answer is always a number. So that means your answer today needs to be something like, oh, I don't know, grass clippings or rainbows or chocolate chip cookies. Anything that will ensure not giving OG Another point. All right. Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and Joe's mom is thrilled because it's former NFL star Walter Payton's birthday day today. Older brother of another famous Peyton. Peyton Manning.
- [29:35]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Where do you do your research? Walter Payton and Payton Manning to the likeness.
- [29:41]
Doug
I mean, they're practically twins. Walter played for the now criminally overrated Chicago Bears for his entire career.
- [29:49]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Who finished what last? Last. They finished last and they're still criminally overrated.
- [29:55]
Doug
It's. It's possible.
- [29:56]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Please send your hate mail to Doug. Please.
- [29:58]
Doug
Chicago fans, entire city of Chicago. But somehow Walter Payton found a way to still become the second highest paid player in the NFL during the 1979 season. So here's the question. While the most his brother Peyton Manning earned was a whopping 16.
- [30:17]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Not Brother Peyton.
- [30:18]
Mark Tropman
Hopefully these are him.
- [30:21]
Doug
I mean, they got the same name. How could they not be brothers? Anyway, Peyton earned a whopping 16 million in 2016. How much money did Walter Payton earn in 1979 when he was the second highest paid player in the NFL behind O.J. simpson. I'll be back right after I begin writing a resume for the NFL to see if maybe I could host NFL shows as well. I mean, you gotta admit, NFL could use. Use a guy like me.
- [30:47]
Joe Saul-Sehy
They absolutely could. There are days that I. I wonder about just shipping you off to the NFL or somewhere. Well, after. Paula, come on. After he makes a statement about my stomach.
- [31:00]
Paula Pant
Ah. Now I feel bad because it's pick on Doug day, and I. And I was part of the problem. Oh.
- [31:07]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, my God, Doug, how do you do this?
- [31:09]
Mark Tropman
Sad face.
- [31:10]
Joe Saul-Sehy
How do you do this? All right, Mark, I almost said Peyton Manning, Walter Payton, 1979, second highest paid player. How much did he make in 1979?
- [31:21]
Mark Tropman
Is this in today dollars or 1979 dollars?
- [31:25]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah.
- [31:27]
Mark Tropman
So I have to do some math. Well, I am going to go with 16 million today dollars. I'm going to use some of my favorite numbers. $2,280,000.
- [31:42]
Joe Saul-Sehy
$2,280,000. Jesse, what do you think? High or low?
- [31:50]
Jesse Kramer
I'm gonna go lower. I'm gonna say $250,000.
- [31:57]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You went what? You went. Wait, why so long?
- [32:00]
Jesse Kramer
I can explain.
- [32:01]
Mark Tropman
So there's definitely a strategy there.
- [32:03]
Jesse Kramer
A little bit. A little bit is setting the uprights for Paula, but then also Peyton Manning, brother of Walter Payton.
- [32:10]
Doug
Thank you.
- [32:11]
Jesse Kramer
$16 million in 2016. So 37 years earlier. That's. We're talking about 1979, 37 years earlier. So I kind of sat to myself and I said, okay, star players, 37 years apart, how many times did the average salary in the NFL double over those 37 years? I think the NFL kind of professional sports in general, I think, have grown much faster than the pace of inflation. So I'm guessing that the average salary doubled about six times over those.
- [32:38]
Mark Tropman
You know, you're giving the years.
- [32:40]
Doug
I was just going to say, what the hell are we doing?
- [32:42]
Jesse Kramer
Do you think. Do you think I'm not seeding false information in here as well?
- [32:48]
Joe Saul-Sehy
All right, Paul, you got to parse through Jesse's BS to figure out what else is new.
- [32:53]
Paula Pant
Yeah, no, my guess is going to be very simple. I'm going to say that if this guy was the second highest player in the NFL, then even in $1979, I would think it would still be over 2 mil. So Mark's guess was what? It was 2,000,280. 2,280,000 was Mark's guess.
- [33:15]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yes.
- [33:16]
Paula Pant
So mine will be 2,281,000.
- [33:19]
Joe Saul-Sehy
2,281,200 2,080,000. And Jesse, you were at 250,000. So wow. Big difference.
- [33:31]
Paula Pant
I'm taking the over.
- [33:32]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Jesse versus Paula and Mark. Who's right? We'll let you know in just a minute. Upgrade your learning experience during Dell Technologies back to school event with AI PCs like the Dell 14 plus featuring an Intel Core Ultra processor starting at $749.99. Supercharge your studies with features like real time notes, transcription, AI accelerated hardware to run multiple apps without slowing down extended battery life and more. That's the power of new AI PCs with Intel inside. Discover a smarter way to learn@dell.com deals that's Dell.com deals.
- [34:18]
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- [34:54]
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- [35:24]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Mark, you kick this thing off by saying $2.28 million, which looked really good until Paula decided she was taking part of that answer. How you feeling?
- [35:37]
Mark Tropman
I actually feel pretty good, I think still in the running year.
- [35:42]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You think it's on the downside that it's on the.
- [35:44]
Mark Tropman
Yeah.
- [35:45]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Could be a little bit less.
- [35:47]
Mark Tropman
Obviously thinks it's way on the downside.
- [35:50]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. Jesse, speaking of downside, you were way down there at 250,000. How you feeling?
- [35:55]
Jesse Kramer
I'm feeling good. I'm telling you that the average player back then probably made like $81,000 a year in 1979. So a star making three times the average. I'll. I like my chances.
- [36:08]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Wow. Jesse might not have had BS the way that he now. The votes are locked. Paula. He's, like, even more adamant. All right, Paul's, like, good for him.
- [36:18]
Paula Pant
I'm still feeling good. I still think that it's. It sounds reasonable knowing how high these salaries are. It sounds reasonable that even in 1979 that the second highest paid player would be making above 2 mil.
- [36:31]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, 14 years of wrong guesses can't.
- [36:33]
Doug
Be.
- [36:35]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Can'T hold you back now, Doug, is Paula finally going to win this thing?
- [36:41]
Doug
It's incredibly unlikely, Joe, but let's see where this goes. Hey there, Stackers. I'm NFL job seeker and guy apparently looking for a better agent. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Walter Payton was the face of the Chicago Bears for 12 seasons from 1975 to 1987. Quarterback Jim McMahon said that because teams would often assign three people to cover the running back they called sweetness, everyone on the team looked great as a result. In 1979, Walter was the NFL's second highest paid player behind O.J. simpson. I looked it up. Simpson was apparently faster because he used a Ford Bronco to run.
- [37:20]
Mark Tropman
He cheated.
- [37:21]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Again, you need to do better research.
- [37:24]
Doug
But today we're wondering how much money Peyton made. Walter Payton. How much Walter Payton, brother the of Peyton Manning made in 1979. And he earned 1.831 million less than what Paula guessed.
- [37:41]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, my God.
- [37:42]
Doug
1.83 million less than what Mark guessed and just 200,000 more than what Jesse guessed because the correct answer is 450,000, making Jesse our winner.
- [37:54]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Jesse Kramer.
- [37:56]
Mark Tropman
Well played.
- [37:57]
Paula Pant
I'll take it.
- [37:58]
Jesse Kramer
Thank you, guys. Oh, gee, I'm coming for you.
- [38:00]
Paula Pant
I'm happy to see a coalition victory.
- [38:02]
Jesse Kramer
That's right. That's right. We are crushing OG Paula, we're now 13 to 10.
- [38:06]
Paula Pant
Absolutely.
- [38:10]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I love the new math approach to this. If we take our scores and add them together.
- [38:16]
Paula Pant
Well, yeah, it's like, it's like Parliament, right? Where you have. You can create a majority with the alliance of a smaller political party and then a bigger, slightly bigger one. Right. We're Parliament.
- [38:27]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Okay, so it's good.
- [38:28]
Doug
I was thinking more they feel like the axis countries, like one of them is Mussolini.
- [38:32]
Jesse Kramer
I'm sure.
- [38:34]
Joe Saul-Sehy
No, again, no.
- [38:36]
Jesse Kramer
And who's OG in this metaphor?
- [38:37]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Dog.
- [38:38]
Mark Tropman
Oh, I think we know. Yeah.
- [38:40]
Jesse Kramer
Palpatine.
- [38:41]
Joe Saul-Sehy
No. Nope again. Wow. We're on a roll of bad analogies. So let's pivot really quickly. I've got a piece here from aarp. When we talk retirement fears and how to conquer them. Carrie Ann Renzuli wrote this piece just a year ago in 2024. So I want to walk through these and. And I'd Love all three of you to dive into. How do you get through these fears, Mark? You kick this, this one off. Fear your outlive your savings. You actually that was right where you went on the attack out of the gate here today. But you mentioned specifically something a lot of people say, I don't know, you mentioned the, the A word annuity.
- [39:21]
Mark Tropman
Yes, the big A word.
- [39:23]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Where does an annuity fit in in this retirement diversified portfolio?
- [39:30]
Mark Tropman
Well, I think of it this way is that we're solving for this unknown end date and certainly Social Security does that, right? It's cola adjusted, it'll pay as long as you live. Again with all the caveats. I know people think it's not going to be there but I'm not going to go down that road. And buying a simple, straightforward, plain vanilla single premium immediate annuity that are not sold, they're bought because there's not a lot of commission in it. I call them the index funds of annuities is literally like buying more Social Security but unfortunately without the cost of living adjustment. But it's a nice add on and it's kind of like a reverse pension. Instead of taking the lump sum you're just buying more pension. And it's a personal pension if you think about it. So why not add that to your Social Security stack if that will help you cover your base good life needs for the rest of your life.
- [40:22]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I think especially for a very conservative investor who very risk averse investor Mark, this could be a lifesaver.
- [40:30]
Mark Tropman
Yeah, I look at it and actually it's not as expensive as you might think because there's a lot of mortality credits and so forth and I've mapped it out for myself. I will turn on my Social Security at age 70. All I've done is set aside a certain amount to buy that single premium immediate annuity. But I'm going to let my 70 year old self make that decision. If I don't make it to 70, it doesn't get bought. But I'm just going to push some money off to the side to allow myself to buy that if and when I make it to 70 and if I have a shortfall, which I will likely because I'm not a dude, you know, two income or two Social Security household. Yeah.
- [41:07]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So just to be clear, you've said it twice but I want to emphasize this. You're not buying the annuity now. You're, you're buying it and pulling the trigger at 70.
- [41:14]
Mark Tropman
Yeah. And basically what I did was it's 10 years away for me So I just bought a tip that will mature at that time. So, you know, the inflation aspect of that treasury inflation protected securities should match what it would cost me today If I were 70 to buy that. So it's kind of a asset. And again, I'm going to do it only when I want to turn it on. Not. It's not a deferred income in an oe.
- [41:37]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So I remember Ben Stein. You guys remember Ben Stein? Not just from Fedor Sper's Day off. Anybody, Anybody? Bueller. But also, I mean, he's an economist. A lot of people might just think of him as a actor on that movie, an economist. Ben Stein actually said that his parents, there was no way they were going to understand diversified portfolios. He goes, there's just some people that just aren't going to understand it. That immediate annuity, Mark, that you talked about just saved them because there was no way they were going to understand a different strategy. That was just the key for them. And I sometimes during my career ran into those people. What's another way, Paula, that you would get rid of that fear that you outlive your savings?
- [42:18]
Paula Pant
I'm a big fan of rental properties. I mean, I know.
- [42:21]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I didn't know that.
- [42:23]
Paula Pant
I know that shocks nobody. Mark, you made this point earlier. There's a certain comfort that comes from knowing that you collect rental income and that that rental income is, generally speaking, relatively predictable. You know, of course there are going to be vacancies, there are going to be unexpected major capital expenditures, but for the most part, particularly if you have a diversified portfolio of multiple properties, and so you're not overly reliant on the performance of just one property. You know, you then have, let's say, 8, 10, 12 fully paid off free and clear units, and cash flow fairly well from that. And, and what I like about rentals is that the income, you know, you purchase rentals such that the total return, right, which is the. The unleveraged total return. So the appreciation on the home plus the quote, unquote dividend or income stream that you get from the property is about equivalent to what you would get in, let's say, a total stock market index fund or an S&P 500 index fund, right? So even if you buy rental properties with that criteria in mind, the return that you get on that rental property biases towards the form of cash flow. And so it then, I think, psychologically becomes a little bit easier to spend it because it's not like you're selling off a portion of your portfolio. You're simply collecting a bigger dividend, so to speak.
- [43:48]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It is wild, Jesse, because there are some investors that are so mortally afraid of selling any of their portfolio during retirement. And I remember when I was a planner, dude, I could tell the client all day, you're going to outlive your money, you're fine. But just this idea of selling some of your portfolio scares the hell out of them. How do you get rid of that fear?
- [44:06]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah, that's. It's been a hot topic recently. I feel like in some personal finance podcasting circles is that idea of, you know, I've been buying assets my entire life and now I just can't flip the switch to selling assets instead. For example, if it's stocks or if it's a stock bond portfolio, it's like, I'm only going to live off the income. I'm never going to sell the underlying securities. So how do we get over that fear? It might take some time, but essentially, like, I got to believe that 99.9% of retirement plans, they only work. Or at least one of the foundational assumptions in that retirement plan, the entire time it was being put together was that, yeah, you are going to slowly but surely sell off your assets at a reasonable and responsible rate to and through. Well, maybe not to, but throughout your retirement once you need income from your portfolio. The way I think about it is stocks are the easy example. There are two ways. There are exactly two ways that stocks provide a return to those who own them. One is through a dividend stream and the other other is through capital appreciation. And the only way you can really recognize the capital appreciation from your stocks is by eventually selling them. So it's just part of the process. And it certainly doesn't mean that you're retirement plan is any weaker or anything like that, because it depends on you selling assets. That's. It's a feature, not a bug. It's by design.
- [45:21]
Joe Saul-Sehy
This blogger, to your point I mentioned, wrote this in 2016. They were surprised that when they retired and they set up that, that withdraw stream, Jesse, which included selling assets, they were spending $40,000 a year internationally in low cost of living countries. Their portfolio still made another 26,000 bucks even though they were selling. Maybe it's, you know, people from Missouri, the show me. You got to show me.
- [45:46]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah, I mean, it happens more often than not. And that's, that's another good. Just a good tidbit for investors to keep in their back pocket, for retirees to keep it in their back pocket is if they're following one of these 4% rules, 4 and a half, 5% withdrawal rates, whatever it may be. And then they have. I know in this particular blog post, it was a 6040 portfolio as the example. I mean, on average, a 6040 portfolio returns 8 to 9% per year. It won't do that every year, but that's what it's done historically. So if you're withdrawing 5% and your portfolio is growing at an average of 8%, more often than not, your portfolio is going to outgrow your withdrawals on an annual basis. So again, that's something to expect in retirement, not necessarily to be surprised by.
- [46:24]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And I think it's also a reason to set milestones. Right. My portfolio, even if it is shrinking, it can shrink to here. And I'm going to be okay. It can shrink to here. I'm going to be okay. Those milestones, I know, go a long way. Second point on here, Mark. Fear that you'll lose purpose. I mean, this is kind of where we began. I had a purpose at work. I'm not sure what my purpose is going to be after. How did you fight through the purpose game when you jumped off the retirement cliff?
- [46:49]
Mark Tropman
Yeah, well, actually, when I retired, I actually went and got my CFP because I thought I needed to do something. You know, I couldn't just sit idle and do nothing. And that was just to be on.
- [47:00]
Joe Saul-Sehy
The show, wasn't it? You got. You went to get your CFP so you could come on stacking basis.
- [47:04]
Mark Tropman
Isn't it a requirement? I thought it was, right.
- [47:05]
Doug
No.
- [47:06]
Mark Tropman
Okay. But I actually have not used it after I retired because I realized I didn't need the income. But it does allow me to do some things kind of in the educational space at my local high school and some other things I've been working on. And it gives me that kind of credibility, I guess you would say. So, yeah. I mean, I. I guess I did need some purpose. And I still have this purpose of helping younger generations, you know, understand this stuff. It took me a while to figure it out myself. I did it at a relatively young age, you know, in my late 20s, early 30s. I kind of figured it out. But I'm like, wow, if I could help people in their 20s figure this out even earlier, they've got that extra decade of Runway, wouldn't that be great? So that's kind of my new purpose. But, yeah, if I was just, you know, I do a lot of traveling. I enjoy that. But if that's all I was doing, it might be a little Hollow.
- [47:57]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, yeah. But you're traveling, you're meeting with people from the fire community, you're helping those people. Like I love the fact that you went and got a designation right out of work into retirement. How else do you fight that fear of losing purpose, Paula?
- [48:09]
Paula Pant
I think community, the people that you surround yourself with on a day to day basis, that's family, it's friends, it's people at your church or at volunteer groups or other community groups. You know, and this is when we talk about moving. One of the things that you want to be very cautious about because a lot of people say I'm going to retire and then I'm going to move to Hawaii. But you don't know anybody in Hawaii. And if you're very good at meeting people or very intentional about meeting people, maybe you can form a community there. But so much of what your actual experience in a place is going to be is it's not going to be based on the external environment. It's going to be based. It's going to be all about the people.
- [48:49]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Is that why you moved to Longmont, Mark? Was the community?
- [48:52]
Mark Tropman
Absolutely, yes. So I was in Crested Butte, Colorado. I had a lot of acquaintances there, but not any really deep connections. And of course this whole group that I'm involved in in Longmont had always been like, well, just move here. And I finally did so this past fall I moved there. It's been a phenomenal experience. It was one of the best decisions, if not the best decision I've made in my life. Social interaction is so important, especially during this kind of post by slash retirement period. And what I found was back in Crested Butte a lot of people are working. It's very difficult to make it work there. It's a very high cost of living area. So people weren't just around. And here, I mean, you know, on a. What did we do yesterday? We went out to lunch in the middle of the day and some people were out hiking and there's always stuff to do midweek because there are like minded people that have time, freedom. So yeah, that was the absolute reason that I moved, was for the social connection.
- [49:51]
Joe Saul-Sehy
What do you see, Jesse, from the most successful retirees your firm works with.
- [49:55]
Jesse Kramer
As far as purpose goes? Like on this purpose axis?
- [49:57]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:58]
Jesse Kramer
I mean I can think of a few examples of people who they're sitting on nonprofit boards. They're still doing plenty of travel. Like don't get me wrong, they're doing plenty of the travel stuff. They're doing plenty of, you know, the fun Leisure type stuff like golf, but. Right. They're sitting on nonprofit boards there a lot of interaction with their family. In some cases they're even maintaining connections to former colleagues and like former work relationships. Really getting kind of into the community more, you know, like supporting things around here. Rochester, Western New York, stuff like that. Those are all some examples that come to mind. Just staying flexible, staying open minded, I think is another one. Because there's a honeymoon phase too.
- [50:33]
Mark Tropman
Right.
- [50:34]
Jesse Kramer
I do think there are some people who during that first year, during those first few months, maybe even a few years into retirement, they can kind of overload on the leisure activities and they feel fine by it. But that honeymoon phase eventually wears off and purpose needs to play a bigger role. A lot of people too. It kind of feels better to earn your fun, if that makes sense through, you know, people. I just think a lot of people end up feeling better if they're like, yeah, I went and took my walk this morning. I volunteered at the dog shelter midday, and now I'm going to go play nine holes because I've, I've kind of done my work for the day. So anyway, finding that kind of balance and staying flexible is pretty important.
- [51:11]
Joe Saul-Sehy
No, that's great. The research of a gentleman named Ken Dykewald talks about that honeymoon that you're referencing, Jesse, that the first 18 months, he writes, for the average person, they're in this euphoria state, which is often followed if you haven't addressed purpose, by one of the deepest, darkest depressions you've ever had. Just for people that don't go down the purpose trail, I will in the show notes include a link to our discussion with the creators of a great documentary called Join or Die. To all of you referencing community, because all the statistics around longevity and community that you all three referenced are huge. And I feel like we tend to isolate when we get there. You know, there's two more on here. I think we address being lonely, which is another fear. But there are two. One is around healthcare and the other one is around long term care. So generally, Jesse, people really worried about their health and the fear of I'm not going to be healthy in retirement. How do we push past that fear?
- [52:07]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah, a couple things. First, one, I mean, there's the fear of not being healthy and then there's the fear of how will I care for myself? And I do kind of think of them as separate fears because, I mean, there's just more and more research and it's very interesting research coming out about how people can try to maintain some health as they age and how much of a struggle it can be. And a lot of it is how we can start at much younger ages trying to be healthy, such that when we reach an older age, our body is just in a, in a healthier state because, you know, we've been healthier for longer in our life. So that's a big part of it. When you look at some of the most expensive kind of health crises that can happen throughout our life, let alone old age, there are plenty of things that are in our control, kind of preventative healthcare that's in our control to try to maintain some health. But I know I'm not, I'm not a doctor, this isn't a health podcast. But I still think that's something that listeners ought to think about when it comes to the actual health care. I would encourage anyone out there to familiarize yourself with, if you're retiring early, how you're going to bridge that gap between the age you retire in 65 when Medicare kicks in, and then familiarizing yourself with Medicare itself because it's a pretty expansive program. Just about everything that you could or would need done to, to help you out is covered by Medicare. Long term care is a different one. Then I'll, I'll pause there and throw it to the others before we dive into long term care.
- [53:26]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Long term care is a beast. Paula, you, you want to go after long term care. In the last four minutes.
- [53:35]
Paula Pant
You and I, Joe, on on the Afford Anything podcast, we recently answered a question from a listener submitted question from somebody who's really worried about long term care. Actually, you and I just recorded it. I don't know if at this point we've actually released that episode or not. So either that episode just aired or that episode will air soon. One of the two.
- [53:52]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, we do dive much deeper. We also OG tackles this on a Stacking Benjamin show that also came out. So between Afford Anything and sb, I think we've attacked it much more than we can in three minutes here because it's because, because to that point, Paula, it's not a three minute discussion.
- [54:07]
Paula Pant
Yeah, you've got 180 seconds. Go, go.
- [54:10]
Mark Tropman
179 One quick less than three minute comment on that. And what I do personally is my house is paid off and the home equity in the home is earmarked for that. Now that works in a single person household better than it does in a dual person household. But that is in my plan, how I've kind of solved that. At least set aside you sell the property, Mark. Well If I have to go into a long term care facility. Yeah. The property would be sold if I have a separate reserve for kind of aging assistance, which are those things that you may need to pay for while you still own the home.
- [54:44]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. I wondered if it were. If you'd sell it or if you'd reverse mortgage it.
- [54:48]
Mark Tropman
You could do both. I mean, not both, but you could do the reverse mortgage and then ultimately sell it. Yeah, yeah. But it also, that's usually beneficial for a two person household. So first person, if they need help is reverse mortgage. The second person, they sell the house.
- [55:02]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I love the idea, Jesse, what you said about really exploring Medicare because a lot of those Medicare decisions are time sensitive. You have to know the Medicare timeline, how it applies to you. You see people miss these really important dates. The good news is a lot of decisions you can delay. But that those Medicare decisions, man, you got to, you got to be on them. So do your research on those programs. All right, I'll link to both of these pieces. The piece about fear from 2016 and AARP's piece about fighting retirement fears. And of course, we're going to link to what all three of you guys are doing. We'll talk to our guest of honor last. Paula, what's going on at Afford Anything besides you and me talking long term care?
- [55:44]
Paula Pant
Oh, you and I have lots of discussions on a wide variety of topics. We talk long term care, we talk about private investments, we talk about gold investing in gold, or more broadly, how to invest in a reflationary or recessionary environment. Anyway, that's going to be on a variety of Afford Anything shows throughout the month of July. So tune into any of the Q and A episodes in July for that.
- [56:06]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, we're talking about nurses and anesthesia, like putting nurses to sleep.
- [56:11]
Paula Pant
That is not what nurse anesthesia is. But sure, I comment on that episode that I hate the phrase putting to sleep because in human medicine that references anesthesia, but in veterinary medicine that references euthanasia. And so it's, it's very confusing because you don't want to mix the two up.
- [56:32]
Joe Saul-Sehy
No, no.
- [56:34]
Paula Pant
So, yeah, it's a very confusing phrase. Anyway, so all of that is coming out. So the episode in which you and I talk about private investments, investing in inflationary environments and nurse anesthesia, that's the one that's going to air on July 29th next week.
- [56:50]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, and that's it. Afford anything where finer podcasts like the Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast are found. Jesse, what's going on over there, my friend?
- [57:04]
Jesse Kramer
I think we settled on Pfly. Did we settle on Pfly Dog? I think we settled on Pfly.
- [57:08]
Doug
Yep, that's the one.
- [57:09]
Jesse Kramer
Peter Lazaroff is joining us soon. Peter Lazaroff, chief investment officer at plancorp, host of the Long Term Investor. Really? We have a really good conversation. We dive into some details about like, okay, what's happening here in 2025 and what are some good long term investing lessons we can take from it. And then after Peter, we're going to have another one of our well received Ask me anything episodes. So I think. Excited for that one to come out.
- [57:30]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. You know, I love about both Peter and you, Jesse, is your ability to take these complex arguments and just make them straightforward. Like take it this crooked path and go, no, no, no, no. You're thinking about this too. Jumbled and just boom, boom, boom. Peter's great at that.
- [57:46]
Jesse Kramer
Well, thank you, thank you. It's a work in process, but it's a fun part of the whole podcasting exercise is simplifying some of these ideas.
- [57:52]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, and I'm super happy. I feel like we have kind of the Godfather of the fire movement with us today. Mark, speaking of people that calm people down and. Nope, you can do this. What's going on at Mark's Money Mind?
- [58:03]
Mark Tropman
Well, we just released a live podcast from Campfire Week 1.5. My buddy Kevin Sebesta co hosted it and we had a really great conversation and we're scheduled to do another one this coming weekend. So that should probably be out around this. When this one's out, you never know what else I'll talk about. Maybe that new Swedish rock band, Obama, the Obba that's out there. Who knows? Obviously, tax information is always top of mind, so I don't know. That's a crazy name for that. Was it the one big beautiful, big, beautiful Bill? I don't know. I'm sure that'll be a topic of discussion out there. And then I'm also working on a Mountains and Money project that we will be doing here in Longmont next summer is the plan. It's kind of a working project right now, but basically bringing in a number of young individuals in their 20s or college age to talk about, you know, getting started at a young age. So we'll see how that goes.
- [59:01]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, make sure you reach out to me when that's coming because I'd love to dive deeper on an episode.
- [59:05]
Mark Tropman
All about that penciled in for July of next year. So we'll see where it goes from here.
- [59:09]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Fantastic. When you and I and Kevin were together in Bali at a fantastic retreat in Bali. Kevin introduced himself one time as Too much Kevin.
- [59:17]
Mark Tropman
Yes. He's still too much.
- [59:18]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And my spouse Cheryl still refers to Kevin Sebesta as an op. Kevin's listening. She still refers to him as oh, too much Kevin. I go, you know Kevin? She goes, oh, too much Kevin. Yeah, too much Kevin. But there's never enough Kevin, I think. Yeah, almost like too much stuff.
- [59:31]
Doug
I love that.
- [59:32]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah.
- [59:32]
Doug
I was, I was golfing a few weeks ago with a guy. It was just kind of, kind of knew him a little bit, but got to know him a lot better riding in the cart. And we get to the, near the end of the romp over the 17th hole and he goes, you think you could turn down the hole just a little bit?
- [59:47]
Jesse Kramer
Wow.
- [59:48]
Doug
It was hilarious. I loved it. It was spectacular.
- [59:54]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, hey, so one of the big takeaways from today's podcast.
- [60:01]
Doug
Well, Joe, first, take some advice from Mark. Mark Troutman. Don't let the fear of the unknown keep you from achieving time freedom, which sounds to me like Mark's figured out time travel. Second, let's say you work with Paula and you dream of retiring to escape the morass. Turn your fear into excitement by being purpose driven. Maybe by adopting puppies or writing children's books or figuring out your short game around the green. But the big lesson, when you call the NFL, don't tell them what you do at Stacking Benjamins. Apparently now I'm on the short list to become the Buffalo Bills mascot. It's probably my physique, right? Thanks to Mark Trotman for joining us today. You'll find Mark's Money Mind podcast wherever you listen to finer podcasts. We'll also include links in our show notes@stacking benjamin.com thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fat fabulous podcast Afford Anything wherever you listen to. Pretty good pot. Pretty good.
- [61:01]
Mark Tropman
I screwed that up.
- [61:03]
Doug
Cause we already said finder podcasts. You'll find her podcast in all the places. Thanks also to Jesse Kramer for joining us today. His podcast, Personal Finance for Long Term Investors, better known as the Pfly Podcast. Tune in to hear Jesse rap all his financial advice. This show is the property of SP Podcasts LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Josal Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome team@stackingbenjamins.com along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.
- [61:43]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, yeah.
- [61:43]
Doug
And before I go, not only should you not take advice from from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin show.