Does More Money Actually Make Life Easier? (Spoiler: Not Really) SB1773

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: Does More Money Actually Make Life Easier? (Spoiler: Not Really) SB1773

Date: December 12, 2025
Host(s): Joe Saul-Sehy, OG, Doug (Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug)
Guests: Paula Pant (Afford Anything), Jesse Kramer (Personal Finance for Long Term Investors)

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Overview:

This episode dives into the question: Does more money actually make life easier, or does it just bring more chaos? Inspired by a Wall Street Journal article titled "The More Money I Have, the Worse I Am at Managing It," Joe, OG, Paula, and Jesse reflect on their own financial journeys, discuss research showing that people with less money often manage it more attentively, and debate whether good money habits deteriorate with rising income. The roundtable balances lively banter, personal anecdotes, and actionable insights, all with a tone that's light, self-deprecating, and honest about financial growth and stumbles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflecting on Early Money Management Habits

(Starts ~11:45)

• The Article’s Premise: The episode is spurred by Julia Carpenter's WSJ piece; she notes that when she had little money, she managed it perfectly; with more, she was sloppier.
• Panel Reactions:
  • Paula: Never overdrew her account in college. Was "obsessive about tracking my money... sweating over every carton of orange juice, every roll of toilet paper — it all mattered." (12:00)
  • Jesse: Had a similar experience. "I know I've done [overdraft] once...within the last couple of years, which maybe is to Julia's point about getting worse as time went on." (12:12)
  • OG: Not sure but believes he definitely bounced some payments in early adulthood. Notes, "When you don’t have a lot of income, everything counts." (13:06)
  • Joe: Admits he was skilled at overdrawing in college, reinforcing how limited means make you careful.

2. Early Wins, Confidence, and Overconfidence

(15:00)

• Gaining Confidence: The panel reflects on how early financial struggles or wins shape confidence.
  • OG: "There wasn’t a single thing that was going right...it was all self-inflicted struggle....When I finally took responsibility...I got a little bit more control." (15:31)
  • Joe: He was "very confident, maybe overly confident, in my ability to make money...I’ll just go make more money," which led him to neglect budgeting and discipline (17:00)
  • Paula: Contrasts with the others. "Where I was not confident was my ability to make more money...I was too scrappy, too frugal...not thinking about growing." (20:57)

Notable Quote

"Once I realized to your point, nobody's coming to save me...the only person that could save me is me. That was it."
— Joe Saul-Sehy (18:58)

3. Research: Is Scarcity a Teacher?

(24:08)

• The WSJ article references research from UChicago showing that those with less money often track it more obsessively.
  • Jesse: Thinks limited resources force valuation: "It's a supply and demand thing — if you don't have much of something, you value it a lot." (24:08)
  • Doug: "Success is the worst teacher…you learn nothing from success; it’s all the hardships and mistakes that you learn from." (25:16)
  • OG: Chimes in with humor about the disappearance of pennies: "From now on, we have to say nickels. Right? I gotta stop pinching my nickels." (25:57)

Notable Quote

"When you've made mistakes that have caused you to be in a situation to only have pennies, you're going to learn a lot from that."
— Doug (25:46)

4. Does Complexity Grow Along with Wealth?

(27:08 & 30:16)

• OG: Discusses Nick Maggiulli's wealth ladder and the "0.01% rule"—as net worth increases, the focus on minor decisions decreases.
  • Below ~$80,000: Every dollar counts (groceries, gas, etc.).
  • ~$150,000: Worry shifts away from the details (e.g., gas, groceries).
  • $300,000+: Dining and wine list choices become less consequential.
• Jesse: Agrees, “Nothing...frustrates me more than...When someone drives across town to save 11 cents on gas." (31:48)

Memorable Moment

• OG's Steak Brother story: His brother thought “special” meant discount at a steakhouse—turned out to be the most expensive dish; drove home how money assumptions change as income increases. (32:58)

5. Do Good Money Habits Atrophy When Money Is Plentiful?

(46:27)

• Paula: Argues habits should adapt rather than disappear. Recommends the "anti-budget" — focus on just a few big categories (save, spend; or needs, wants, savings). "You can get rid of...granularity...while still having some sense of where your money’s going." (46:27)
• Jesse: Cautions that slippage is almost inevitable as income rises — "You just cut yourself a little bit of slack...to spend more frivolously here or there." (48:17)
• OG: For their family, extra spending is on "freedom-related activities" that reclaim time (help at home, convenience, etc.).

6. Balancing Time, Money, and Attention as Resources

(53:43)

• Paula: Stresses that attention and time become more precious as money grows: "We’ve got time, we've got money, we've got focus...attention is an increasingly scarce resource." (53:43)
• Doug/OG/Jesse: Allude to reframing time as a resource. The goal isn’t just money, but what money can buy in terms of reclaiming freedom, comfort, or joy.

7. The Dangers of Overcomplication

(55:11)

• OG: "As I got more money, I began to overcomplicate it...overabundance of systems...made it a mess." He references investing: "How many different ETFs do you need that say S&P 500? The juice is not worth the squeeze." (56:24)
• Jesse: Jokes about diversification fallacies (“If I have the S&P 500 at Schwab and at Fidelity and at Vanguard, I’m diversified, right?”).
• Multipliers vs. Simplifiers: Joe and OG play these roles in business: Joe tries everything, OG tries to keep it efficient.

8. Joyful, Free Experiences Don't Require Wealth

(58:28)

• Paula: "Just going on a long walk...anywhere outdoors. Long walk, totally free." (58:28)
• Jesse: "Hanging out with people can be really cheap...just socializing."
• OG: "Just being outside is a great use of time and energy...it doesn't cost hardly anything."

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• OG on Personal Responsibility:
  “Once I said, okay, now I can undo some of these things. I think that's where I got a little bit more... control.” (16:58)

• Paula on Income and Mindset:
  “My mistake, really, in my 20s was that I was too scrappy, I was too frugal...I wasn't thinking about growing. I was thinking much, much more about shrinking.” (20:57)

• Joe on Complication:
  “It also strikes me as I got more money, I then began to overcomplicate it...created this overabundance of systems...that just jumbled me up and made it a mess.” (55:11)

• OG on Spending Philosophy:
  “If I’m spending money and it’s not producing a result...in terms of a freedom result...that’s where I find a lot of frustration.” (49:27)

• Doug on Success and Learning:
  “Success is the worst teacher in the world. You learn nothing or very little from success. It's all of the hardships and the mistakes that you learn from.” (25:16)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 11:45 — Panel reflects on college/beginning-of-career money management
• 15:00 — Early confidence (over- and underconfidence) about money
• 24:08 — Are people with less money better at managing it?
• 27:08 — Do problems get more complex with wealth, or do we get lazy?
• 30:16 — When does obsessing over little expenses stop making sense?
• 32:58 — OG’s Steak Brother “special” story (hilarious, teaches about money context)
• 46:27 — Is it ever OK to graduate from budgeting?
• 48:17 — Does “only spend on joy” really work?
• 53:43 — Managing limited time, attention, and money
• 55:11 — Do we overcomplicate finances as we get wealthier?
• 58:28 — Favorite absolutely free or low-cost joys

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Tone & Language

True to "Stacking Benjamins" style, the hosts balance actionable finance wisdom with banter, self-deprecation, and generous sharing of past mistakes. They’re unafraid to poke fun at each other, and themselves, keeping the tone encouraging and relatable: “Nobody’s coming to save me...the only person that could save me is me.” (Joe, 18:58) and “I have no idea how much gas costs...I don’t want to be a jackass.” (OG, 31:48).

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Conclusion

Main Takeaways:

• More money doesn’t always mean less chaos—sometimes it brings the temptation to cut corners or overcomplicate.
• Early scarcity trains you to value each dollar—and those skills (budgeting, awareness) should be adapted but not discarded as income increases.
• True wealth might mean spending money where it matters (buying back time, convenience, or joy) and letting go of minutiae that no longer move the needle.
• Simplicity, attention, and joy can get lost in abundance—keeping habits and priorities aligned matters most.

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“It strikes me…we start off tracking every penny because money is precious, and over time, time becomes the precious resource, and that changes your spending.”
— Joe Saul-Sehy (53:43)

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[Segment Guide with Timestamps]

| Topic | Speaker(s) | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------|-----------------|--------------| | College budgeting recollections | Paula, Jesse, OG, Joe | 11:45–13:06 | | Early “confidence” & missteps | OG, Joe, Paula | 15:00–21:58 | | Research: Poor = better with money? | Jesse, Doug, OG | 24:08–27:08 | | Income thresholds for spending concern | OG, Jesse | 27:08–32:19 | | Losing the budgeting habit? | Paula, Jesse | 46:27–48:17 | | Shifting focus to time, attention | Paula | 53:43 | | The dangers of complexity | OG, Jesse | 55:11–58:10 | | Free joys and contentment | Paula, Jesse, OG| 58:28–59:53 |

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This summary preserves the hosts’ friendly, accessible style and major insights, making it valuable for those who missed the episode but want the full story and actionable takeaways.

Transcript

[A]

Kevin Harlan here. Tomorrow night, 5:30 Eastern, the NBA on prime crew is back as the Emirates NBA action heats up from Vegas for a thrilling semifinals doubleheader. Then on Tuesday night, December 16th at 8:30 Eastern, the last two teams standing will square off in the championship game for a shot at the cup, bragging rights and a place in NBA history. And prime is your exclusive home for it all. Not a Prime member. Sign up for a free 30 day trial to get started today. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details. Don't miss the thrilling conclusion of the Emirates NBA cup live from Las Vegas, starting with the semifinals tomorrow only on Prime.

[B]

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[C]

He's like the perfect combination of Mussolini and Seacrest.

[D]

Easy peasy.

[B]

Poor, lazy, deplorable Doug, who cares more.

[C]

About convenience than the happiness and respect.

[B]

Of his town, of his country, of our sacred holiday.

[C]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and on today's show, does more money equal just more chaos in your life? Sure, it's fun to motor up to your problems in a limousine and ask for the Grey Poupon. But how do we solve the issue of good money management as the zeros begin hopefully to pile up? But that's not all we'll cover. Of course, we'll make time for our year long trivia competition which is coming into the home stretch. Can OG Catch match Jesse? Can Paula make it close? We're about to find out. And now a guy who's just returned from asking the mall Santa for a 15% bump in stock prices this year. It's Joe Saul.

[D]

See?

[C]

Hi.

[B]

Hey there. Stackers. I guess it depends on if we're counting the AI stocks or not, right? If we are, then I think things are great. If we're not, things might not be so great. And Doug, I also like the miracle of because we're live on YouTube. But pre recording the intro.

[C]

No, no, no. I just went and did a wardrobe change because I didn't like the way the shirt what the colors brought out in my skin tone. So I changed my shirt.

[B]

I'm not even talking about the cool wardrobe change like your Tina Turner back in the 80s, like switching eight times during the show. I'm also talking about the year long competition is officially over. Oh yeah, Jesse, on our last show. But we might have, might be promising something in that introvert.

[C]

The other thing that I hope people noticed in that intro was how accurately I pronounced with a French accent. Gray Poupon.

[B]

It is. Fantastic.

[C]

Wait till you hear how I pronounce Italian words later in this episode.

[B]

Well, we can't wait. And somebody else who can't wait is the guy who just got back from a big mastermind trip. We have not seen this man in some time. He hasn't even been on the Monday, Wednesday shows. Mr. OG is back. And Doug, doesn't he look tan?

[C]

He looks tan. He looks thinner. I think he got some hair. I think he was not golfing. I think he went to one of those spas where they do all the cheap plastic surgery.

[B]

Turkey. It was a turkey.

[D]

Thank you very much.

[B]

To get more hair grown out of your nose. Is that the deal?

[D]

Oh, gee, let it grow out for the, for the winner.

[B]

But you did golf very well. I heard, I heard you golf very well.

[D]

Fantastic. I, I want to circle back to this. Somehow I wasn't here for two weeks and I lost a tournament that I always win, though. Well, here I, I don't, I don't.

[B]

Apparently you got to show up to win. Apparently.

[C]

That'll learn you.

[D]

This is a little suspect.

[C]

I must be present to win.

[B]

And let's say hello to the man who is the current champion. First time that the prize, our dollar store trophy is going to leave mom's basement in what, three years? Yeah, three years. Jesse Kramer's here. How are you, man? Hello, Mr. Champion.

[E]

I'm doing well. I'm basking. Do I look like I'm basking? I feel like I'm basking.

[C]

There's a certain glow about you.

[B]

By asking over and over, you might be basking. Just a little bit. But. But, oh, gee, you missed the down the stretch and the. The surrogates. Doc G. Andy. Andy Hill.

[D]

It's November 17th. How. How is the contest over?

[B]

It is December 17th, my friend.

[C]

December.

[B]

Yeah, it's actually December 12th. What are we talking about?

[C]

December 12th.

[B]

It's December 12th.

[D]

Well, in my world, it's November 17th, so I feel that this is wildly inaccurate. And.

[B]

There'S going to be a protest.

[C]

Yeah. This lack of awareness of the actual day and date could have something to do with why you did not perform well in trivia.

[D]

I think the YouTubers are going to be on my side in terms of what day and time it is. But that's okay. I'll be a gracious. Well, I won't be a gracious loser. I'm going to be a very sour loser.

[C]

You're not a gracious loser.

[D]

And I'm going to protest this all the way until January. Just so everybody knows a woman who's.

[B]

A gracious loser for the 11th year in a row.

[F]

Well, I love how a trivia question itself is what day is today? And people are like taking the over or the under.

[D]

Is today December 9th?

[F]

Correct.

[B]

It is bad when due to travel schedules, we have no idea what day it is. But it is December 12th. OG I swear, December 12th. Well, we got a great show. We're live on YouTube.

[D]

Stuff that was at the beginning. I'm like, my goodness.

[B]

Today we're going to talk about a Wall Street Journal piece, guys, that is all about having more money. And what's interesting is as you have more money, does that just cause more chaos? And the answer is yes. But the answer also is, is that some good chaos? And it's. It's really interesting in today's roundtable discussion. Let me just set the stage, Stackers. It's going to be less about asking expertise is I'm going to be asking these three wonderful people who we spent the year with about kind of their money journey and if they had some of the stumbling blocks that this piece goes over. So sit back because we're about to hear Paula, OG and Jesse's money stories. And we'll also hopefully be able to help you make your money story even more fun. But before we do that, we've got a few sponsors who help us keep on keeping on. We're going to hear from them and then we're going to dive into more money, more chaos. That's coming up.

[D]

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[C]

Foreign.

[B]

I'm super excited about this spot because my day has completely changed. In fact, my week has completely changed because first thing in the morning I've taken AG1 just starting in the last few months. And it's funny, while I don't really notice it during the day, at the end of the day I was more productive and I was more focused. I haven't gotten the sleepies. I don't get sleepies every day, but on some days I do and I haven't had those same things. I feel like my conversations have been crisper. I feel like I'm more focused on the right things to do. And after a while I suddenly realized that this is because of AG1. That's the only thing that's changed. So what is AG1? It's the daily health drink that combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants into one simple green scoop. It's one of the easiest things you could do to support your body every day. You just take it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. And man, my days are just about 5 to 10% better every day. This time of year, it's more important than ever to be proactive about supporting your immune health. If you're traveling over the holidays or you have kids that are going to be rolling back home after time in school, you want to spend time with them, the large family gatherings, whatever is up this year, you want to be focused and in it. As we approach the New year, it's never too early to take control of your health. AG wants one of the easiest daily health habits that you can start even before the new year. And if you use our link because you're a stacker, you'll get the newest formula and best price available for AG1 next gen. Right now I love using AG1. I think you will too. And now AG1 has their best offer ever. If you go to drink ag1.comsb you'll get the welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2, an AG1 flavor sampler and you'll get to try their new sleep supplement, AGZ for free, which has been a game changer for my nightly routine. That's drink ag1.comSB for $126 value and free gifts for new subscribers. All right. Our headline are actually just the motivation. The impetus for this episode comes to us from the Wall Street Journal. As I mentioned, this is written by Julia Carpenter, and it says, the more money I have, the worse I am at managing it. I thought, wait, wait, what the heck? We'll get to exactly what her point is here. But she starts off with this phrase. She says, when I was in college, I never overdrew my bank account. So things in college when Julia didn't have much money, very easy. And I thought about how much. That wasn't my story. But, Paula, was that your story? Did you overdraw your. Your bank account when you were in college?

[F]

No. No, never. But when I was in college, I was obsessive about tracking my money. I was sweating over every carton of orange juice, every roll of toilet paper. It all mattered.

[B]

And that's 100%. What Julia is saying in this piece, too, is she's the same way.

[F]

And, you know, and these days, it's much easier to, like, not really pay attention to that stuff.

[B]

Right. Jesse, in college, did you ever overdraw your bank account?

[E]

Not that I remember. I know I've done it once that I do remember, and was within, like, the last couple years, which maybe is, to Julia's point, about, like, kind of, like, getting worse at some things. As. As time went on, I was just still stuck on the imagery of Paula sweating into orange juice. I just could not get my mind off of that. I mean, it's a tough way to start your breakfast, you know, with some salty orange juice. No, thanks. I'm good now.

[B]

She can afford all the oranges she wants. That's the Afford anything. Anything equals orange juice. It could have been Paula, you could have called your brand Afford Orange Juice.

[F]

Afford any juice, but just not every juice.

[E]

Paula, definitely hire Joe as your marketer. He's got great ideas.

[B]

I just came up with that. Jesse, I should have said TM on a Ford. Afford the Juice. I know that in college I was just starting to perfect the art of overdrawing my bank account. Like, I was starting to become a ninja at it, even though I didn't have much money. Oh, gee. How about you overdraw your bank account when you were in college?

[D]

I don't actually remember doing it, but I'm certain that it's happened or certain that it did happen. I'm with Jesse. I just bounced a business Amex payment last week because I was on vacation and didn't pay attention to anything. And it just wasn't connected the right savings account to make the payment. And you feel like a total dweeb because you're like, well, I got the money. Now I got to plead forgiveness to Amex so they don't shut your card down while you're on vacation. But you know, the beginning part of this is when you don't have a lot of income, everything counts, right? Like every single solitary expense is super important in terms of where you're going to spend your money, where you're going to allocate resources, how much are you going to be able to save? And I've got a family member right now that's changing jobs. And it's like just that little bit of that two week period of like the old job isn't there and the new job hasn't started paying yet is just enough stress to be like, well, I gotta get the rent people to be okay with being like five days late. And then this credit card bill I could pay 10 days late. And then if we clean out the fridge, maybe I can make enough groceries, you know, make the groceries last, you know, for the family until the next paycheck. It's like just enough stress with that little bit of income where all of that sort of stuff matters. And I think largely for the people here, you know, on this call, that would be something that really would go somewhat unnoticed, which is a blessing, but it's also a curse. And I know she talks about that a little bit later too. But I think we lose. This is maybe some of the point here. We lose some of that intentionality around spending. And as that I'm going to use the phrase margin of safety. As that margin of safety gets wider and wider, we just lose the, the intentionality there.

[B]

Well, let's stick with you, Og, because she goes into next that there was some things that she was confident about because of the fact that she didn't bounce her her checkbook. She said, if anything, those years instilled in me a glowy kind of financial confidence. I can do this, I thought as I balanced my checkbook and deducted 300 for rent. She goes, yes, I know, those were the days. So you can almost determine how old Julia is based on that. But early wins and confidence, like, I wasn't confident about my checkbook. I wasn't confident, I was Doing way too much back of the envelope math even then with very little money. But I was very confident about some other pieces of my financial picture. Where were you confident early on when it came to your money?

[D]

Oh, absolutely. Nowhere. Nowhere. There wasn't a single thing that was going right for the first ten years of. Well, that's not fair. The first probably five years of my working career from college plus five years. I mean it was, every single solitary thing was a struggle bus. Now the reality was it was all self inflicted struggle. This wasn't because, and I think, and not to sound too like, oh, you've got money, so you say these things or whatever and you don't know what it's like to be there. But I think some of it was, since it was my own doing, coming to the realization that I was also the one that could undo it was a big step in kind of piecing together how to make things work the way that I wanted to work it. Now the reality is, is that I get it. There's not always 100% control over every single solitary thing. There's external factors. But when you have that, I think from like you're talking about confidence. When I finally took responsibility, maybe is a better word, and said, okay, these are decisions that I'm making, right? I'm deciding to go out to eat today. I decided to buy the car for, you know, monthly payment that maybe was outside my budget. I decided to live in this apartment complex that was a little bit higher brow than I needed to in terms of, you know, in terms of spending. Once I said, okay, now I can undo some of these things. I think that's where I got a little bit more maybe you said confidence, I don't know that's the right word. But a little bit more control maybe.

[B]

Well, and I'm right there with you too. I all of a sudden felt this huge amount of control. But, but I was very confident even at an early age and I think you were too. Here, I don't want to speak for you og, but I was very confident and maybe overly confident in my ability to make money. I thought that I could make money and that would solve the fact that I wasn't budgeting. Like I wasn't paying attention to my checkbook. I'll just go make more money was what I was going to go do.

[D]

Well, I suspect maybe there could have been a little bit of that. The concept I think was much more. I distinctly remember different times where I was like, what the heck, this always happens to me. Why doesn't this happen to other people? You know, that kind of little victimy mentality? I remember one time where. So this was before I was married, so early 20s, and I went to go to work and my car wasn't there. And I was like, oh, my God, somebody stole my frigging car. Like, what the heck? Like, how does this happen? Like, why do I hit the unlucky branch on the way down the tree every single solitary time? And so I called my brother and I was like, dude, you're not gonna believe this mess. Like this, the apartment that I'm in. Like, some dude stole my car. And he's like, is there any chance that it got repossessed? And I was like, what? No. I mean, do they do that? He's like, well, have you made all your payments? And I'm like, well, I mean, I might be a little behind, but do they really. Is that really a thing they would do to a guy like me? He's like, before you call the police, why don't you call the bank where the car note is? Well, it turns out it was exactly the 60th day of being late. They were like, no mas, you know, they had tons of grace, and just. That was my own doing to. Now I got the car back, and it was solvable, but it still wasn't. It wasn't inexpensive to do. I don't know how I came up with the money, but it was the towing fees and you had to pay the late payments and all that other sort of stuff to get it back. But the whole time it was like, why does this happen to me? Why doesn't this happen to my neighbor? And then it was like, well, because you didn't make your payments, dumbass. Once I realized that, I was like, all right, I could probably fix this if I get my head out of my rear end.

[B]

That was so funny. Once I realized to your point, nobody's coming to save me, like, that was. The only person that could save me is me. That was it. Jesse, early on, where were you confident?

[E]

Sorry, I thought this was a Monday or Wednesday show. Early on, where was I confident?

[B]

What do you mean? That you were in the audience. You were just gonna.

[E]

I got lost in OG Story there for a second. I was just tuned in.

[D]

I was just tuned in. What else would you like to know, Jesse? I've got all sort of foibles. I was pictured him.

[E]

He was falling out of the unlucky tree, and he also fell out of the repossession tree, you know?

[D]

No, I fell into the repossession bucket while falling out of the unlucky tree and falling out of the tree and hitting the unlucky branch all the way down.

[E]

You landed on the repossession tow truck. I hate when I did.

[D]

Ran me over.

[E]

Sorry, Joe. What was I good at? Where was I bad at?

[B]

What were you confident? No. Julia talks about where she was confident. I was too confident. My ability to make more money, I was too confident.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I equated with, I don't need a budget because of that. Turns out that's a lie. That's wrong. Where were you confident?

[E]

Something I remember being confident in is this. You know, we hear it time after time that, what? Money is simple but not easy. And I knew that at least when it came to, like, my first few months of working and my first few months, really, of being out of college. And now I have this. This budget, now I've got some income, and now I have to really make sure I don't screw myself up. I knew that it's like, okay, if I just pay attention to what I spend and I pay attention to what I earn, and I try to look at that bank account and almost, I think Paula was saying how, like, obsessive you were, Paula, in college, over that. Like, that's how I remember feeling at age 22. So a little bit after college, but right there. And I remember feeling confident that, you know, this is within my control as long as I pay good enough attention. Still to this day, sometimes when I hear stories of where people go wrong and you ask them that question of just like, oh, you're monitoring, you know, the big four, what you spend, what you earn, your assets and your debts. And someone says, no, I have no idea what any of those big four are. It's like, okay, well, that's a good place to start. So I remember feeling confident about that.

[B]

Paula, how about you? Where were you confident early on?

[F]

Where I was not confident was my ability to make more money. Oh, I was totally not confident there because I didn't know how that was going to happen. I had a liberal arts degree from a state school. Like, great, join the club. You know, so does everybody. Like, there's nothing special about that. And so I had no idea how I could possibly do anything that would make money. And so where I felt like I. I did have control was in my ability to live really, really scrappy. And so I think that my mistake, really, in my 20s was that I was too scrappy, I was too frugal. I was obsessed with pinching pennies. But I wasn't thinking about growing. I wasn't thinking about opportunity. I wasn't thinking, you know, your, your twenties, you can really lay the groundwork for dreaming big and building something. And I was thinking much, much more about shrinking.

[B]

Oh, yeah. About just tightening so that it would match your income level so you wouldn't have to worry about your bills.

[F]

Right, right.

[B]

That's funny how some of us focus on one area and some focus just on the other. When did you start to learn that it was a combo? Right. That you're locking your expenses and you're growing the top side? When did that light bulb hit?

[F]

I think that's sort of a lesson in progress. I feel like that there's never, there wasn't a single inflection point. I think that's something that I'm still actively learning every single day. But there were a couple of, like, proof is in the pudding points and, and typically they related to hitting certain income thresholds. Initially it was hitting certain monthly income thresholds, and then later it was seeing my annual income and seeing numbers that I never could have previously imagined. I wouldn't have believed it had it not happened.

[B]

And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, wait a minute, I can look at the other side of the equation. And that's, well, so you weren't one day missing your car and all of a sudden said, I got to change. That's a whole different story. I'm taking the beginning of this piece piece by piece because I just found the beginning fascinating. And I knew that you guys all had different stories and these don't disappoint. But Julia says next, when I started making more money than I'd ever made before, something peculiar happened. At the same time that I scored a hard earned raise and published my first book, ironically enough, one about personal finance, I got hit with those dreaded overdraft fees. So she gets an overdraft at the same time she's writing her first book on personal finance. Now, two years into my freelance career, my income is less than half of what I made while working full time. But just like in those college years, I could tell you where every single dollar I make goes and how much is allocated for what bill. It's interesting because she is not just implying. She talks about research from the University of Chicago that shows that poor people are actually better managing the day to day dollars in their budget than wealthy people are. Jesse, do you think that's a just a circumstance of, I don't have Many pennies. So I better know where the hell every single one of them is. Or is there something else going on?

[E]

Yeah, I. I wrote down a few thoughts, and I think one of them is that whole idea of, like, those limited resources where it's kind of like a supply and demand thing. Like, you know, if you don't have much of something, you value it a lot. And I think there's some of that going on, whether people are, like, actually consciously aware of it or not. I also asked myself, and I know the research is really good to know about, in my own personal circumstances, I thought about causation versus correlation and just like, is one thing leading, actually leading to the other. And now that I sit here and think about it, it's like, how do I explain that? Do. I don't know. I suppose I think to myself, like, do I just have less time? And because my life is just busier and my life is busier because I'm doing these things that are actually earning me more money. Also because I have less time. Yeah. Sometimes I screw up my personal finances a little more than I did before. I think maybe there's some of that going on too. You know, I went through the same thing that Julia went through and, you know, the author went through and what she's talking about, where I think I've. I've made more mistakes as I've gotten more financially comfortable. I'm just not sure what the actual underlying reason is.

[B]

I can't wait for us to dive into that. Oh, sorry, Doug. Were you to say something?

[C]

Only because I wanted to cut OG off and make sure he didn't get to capitalize the mic any longer. But, I mean, I think the short version of what you just said, Jesse, and several other may have said is success is the worst teacher in the world. You learn nothing or very little from success. It's all of the hardships and the mistakes that you learn from. And I think that makes total sense why you're going to watch your pennies more. When you've made mistakes that have caused you to be in a situation to only have pennies, you're going to learn a lot from that. That makes total sense to me.

[D]

OG I just have a problem with this whole penny talk. I was alerted to the fact that we have stopped minting pennies. And so from now on, we have to say nickels. Right? I gotta stop pinching my nickels.

[B]

I think we do.

[D]

Which means a different thing now.

[C]

Start pinching your what?

[D]

I didn't know that going into it but that came out way better than I hoped.

[B]

He's here all week, folks. Tip your weight. Steph. It is interesting to me because there's so many roads that we can go down here. But I think og sticking with you. I know people that don't have a lot of money. I'm thinking about a friend of mine who is a young waiter. He's working two different jobs. He goes and he works at a breakfast place and then he goes and works at a dinner place. He's got two young kids. He's scrapping. He and his spouse both are scrapping to make ends meet. Man, he just is. Is at that, you know, that point with his income where he's working a lot of hours. So for him, he doesn't have a lot of time. Like Jesse was talking about, is it time? And now that he's doing the things to make more money, he doesn't have a lot of time and he doesn't have a lot of money. And yet I'll bet that Jim, his name is Jim, that Jim has, knows exactly where every penny, every, excuse me, every nickel, thank you. Is headed. So is it that the problems get more complex when you start having more zeros in it or do we get lazy?

[D]

I don't think it's laziness or complexity. I think it's the impact on the decision. Who is the person who just wrote the book about the decisions relative to net worth? It was like 0.01% Nick Magiulli. Is it Nick Magi's new book, Part.

[E]

Of the Wealth Ladder?

[D]

Yeah, yeah. And the thesis was, as I recall, basically as your net worth increases, the time and energy you should put on your decisions will change based on the dollar amount. If your net worth is 10,000 bucks, you should be hyper obsessive over every nickel. If it's 100,000, you better be hyper obsessive over every $100 purchase. I don't remember the math, but it was something like that. It's not because it's laziness. It's because the time value, or the value of your time maybe is a better way of putting it is less on those day to day things. And I can just anecdotally talk to this about working with clients for the last quarter century and some change. It seems to me there are three kind of major levels of income that people go through and the first level and the number changes based on your location. But I largely think it's around $80,000. Everything under 80, everything counts. Which kind of supports what we're talking about here. So, you know, if you don't make $80,000, you better be paying attention to every single dollar. And that matters which gas station you stop at. You know, you know, which one in town has the gas that's $0.03 cheaper. You know, which grocery store to shop at, because they have the things that you buy repeatedly a little less expensive than other places. And So I think 80,000 is the first cutoff. At 80,000, I think most people will stop obsessing about which gas station to go to. When the tank says empty, you pull into the next service station, you get gas, right? And if you happen to be next to Costco and you got a Costco membership, you'll go to Costco if the line is short. But you're not going to wait in line for 20 minutes to get gas at Costco to save 10 cents. Or you might do that if you have lower income. I think between eighty and a hundred or eighty and one hundred and fifty. About one hundred and fifty, I think, is when people really stop paying attention to grocery shopping. I think at 150, $180,000, depending where you are. It's like I go to the grocery store, I buy the things that I need to feed the family for the week. And that's what we do, you know? And again, if you happen to find something that's a little less expensive, okay, fine. You might have some concept over is pork cheaper than chicken right now or is beef more expensive than pork? And maybe you guide your meal planning a little bit in that direction. But, you know, Cheerios are Cheerios, and if you need a box, you're going to get them. You're not going to really care. And then I think at about 300,000 of income, you stop caring about dining costs relative to going out to eat below 300,000. You pay attention to the wine list, you pay attention to what restaurant you go to. 300,000 of income or more. Hey, I want to go out to dinner.

[E]

And restaurants have wine lists.

[B]

Is that below the dollar menu?

[D]

I think we just figured out where Jesse Kramer's at.

[E]

Is that like doctor. Is that like Dr. Pepper?

[D]

Yes, yes, Dr. Pepper, exactly. But you'll go out to a steak restaurant, and if the lobster says market price, you just order the lobster. If that's what you're feeling, right, you just don't care. And that's a loose generalization I recognize.

[E]

Sorry. I'm sorry.

[D]

No, you're good. It's because the value of the decision is so low relative to either your income or your net worth at that point. There's no energy in that. There's no benefit in saying, like, I saved 11 cents on gas this week. Who cares? You know, I'm just. I'm going for convenience. I need to get gas. The gas station has on the right hand side. I can turn out right. I can turn out right again. Like, that's an easy transition. Like, I'm thinking about that. Less around, like, well, the corner store over there. I gotta make two left turns to get to that one and cross six lanes of traffic to save a nickel. I'm not doing it. Loose generalization. Don't send me hate mail.

[E]

Yeah, I totally agree, OG I totally agree. And whether I know Nick Magiulli, I mean, I like that he just gives you a number. He says it's the 0.01% rule, which is what, one divided by 10,000? And I think, is it a function of net worth that he uses?

[D]

I believe so. Yeah.

[F]

He uses net worth.

[E]

So it's like, if you've got $100,000 net worth, you shouldn't fuss over, what, a $10 decision or less. And if that's the rule that you want to implement in your own life, fine. Maybe you want to make it a $25 decision, or maybe you want to make it a $5, whatever, but, like, implement that rule in your life and then follow that rule. I think so many people would be better off for it. Maybe it's just me and my brain kind of being wired for efficiency, but nothing, no story in the personal finance world frustrates me more than exactly what you just said. OG. When someone drives across town to save 11 cents on gas, right? They drove 15 miles and they spent 30 minutes of their time.

[D]

It's just, I don't necessarily disagree with it when it matters. You know, it's funny, when I talk to my mom on the phone, she will quote gas prices. She's like, did you see gas prices went up? And I'm like, I haven't. I don't want to be a jackass. I have absolutely no idea how much gas costs. I will notice when it's higher than a number that I remember last time. Like, I was in Michigan a week ago. And gas. Sorry, I was in Michigan 3 1/2 weeks ago, and apparently. And yeah, thanks.

[B]

Smooth, safe.

[D]

Yes. And I noticed that gas was more expensive than Texas. That's all. I couldn't tell you how much more. I was just like, that number looks bigger than the number I remember last. That's all. And it's not because I don't think it's super important. I just, you know, it's a different place. It's hard to say this without sound like a complete ass. I get that.

[E]

Do you notice when the price of lobster changes?

[D]

No. Because it just says MP all the time. It's always the same.

[B]

We perform our Friday shows live on YouTube if you'd like to join us. It's on Monday afternoons. And user 55717 said, ordering a market price item off the menu is not a level of wealth I have reached yet.

[D]

Well, you know, again, just using a story from a restaurant, many people who've listened to the show a long time know the Steak Brothers story. If you don't know it, the quick version of it was we were at a family dinner at a nice steakhouse in Dallas. The server says, would you like to hear the special? And they go through the song and dance of what the chef special is. My brother thinks special is as in blue light special. He thinks this is the discounted special. That's what he thinks. I think largely here, our group, and maybe some people online would think special means cha ching, right? We go around the table. My brother's last order, he goes, I'll have the special steak. And I just kind of look at him like, wow, baller must be nice. And the meal comes out. It's on fire. They got a big tray. There's like fireworks going off.

[B]

There's a chorus line behind the meal.

[D]

He finally figures out like, oh, crap, that didn't mean blue light Special, as in this was the, this was the cheap one. And it came and the price was everybody's meal was maybe $50 and his was like 150. And the bill came and he just got the biggest alligator arms in the universe. And he was just like, oh, I'd love to help with the bill, but I can't reach. I can't reach it from here, nor can I reach my wallet, which is way down there. Also doesn't have any money in it. So we call him Steak Brother because he stuffed me with the bill for going out to dinner. To me, that's not a fault of his. That's not a fault of anybody's, honestly. But that's just, you know, where he was in his life. He thought special was. Oh, this is. I'm going to save some money for my brother by getting this, the discounted special. I'll take one for the team. And he took one.

[E]

All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

The market price Bone in tenderloin on fire with the Himalayan sea salt that was, you know, sparkling when it came.

[B]

Out to him that somebody went to the Himalayas to get and bring back. By the time this is a really.

[D]

Good steak, I was like, I should hope so.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

Better be the best hunk of meat you ever put in your mouth, buddy.

[B]

Stacker Adet says special means an expensive way to sell the food that's going bad tomorrow. If you read Tony Bourdain's book sometimes, that's it as well.

[D]

Oh, that's right.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

That's what you going to say.

[B]

I've got so many questions and I also want to talk about these inflection points a little bit that this is the inflection point between this, this method of keeping track and this method or what you pay attention to. I think there's a lot for us to do there in the second half of this show. But as I mentioned at the top of the show, Doug, our year long competition has ended.

[D]

The.

[B]

Trophy is. The trophy is headed north. It is headed to Rochester, New York, where Jesse's going to have it on the shelf behind him for the next year. The dollar store trophy. Congratulations, Jesse.

[C]

And OG it better have all of the delightful gourmet chocolates that it came with when you received.

[D]

Can't even erase anymore. That's how long it's been out. This is dry erase and it just smears OG So I think, Jess, you're.

[B]

Gonna have to duct tape over it or put some tape on it that has your name. Very special trophy arranged as everybody can tell.

[D]

There you go. It's official.

[E]

Thank you, Paula.

[C]

This thing should become like the Stanley cup where you just keep on adding bases to it as so it just gets.

[D]

You drink out of it. You put bourbon in there.

[B]

B. Wayne said we should have the battle for second place. But you know what? That's over two. Doug and I realize, Paula, you're too far behind to catch OG which means that we just decided we'd have some fun trivia.

[D]

Usually you have one of the ones where it's like a game show at the end so that people get. Did you, did you have a game show?

[B]

Well, here we thought about that, but we didn't tell you that was happening ahead of time. And while we are good at doing gratuitous stuff for no apparent reason and changing the rules at the last second, like how like Andy Hill asked the question that should not be asked last week. He said, how do people get a half point? And we're like, not Going back there.

[D]

Was the final tally, by the way, because the last I saw was I was behind by half a point.

[B]

But you're behind by two and a half now as of Jesse's win last.

[D]

So it was stolen. It's cool. It's whatever. I got the stolen championship.

[E]

It was repossessed.

[D]

Notre Dame in 1986.

[B]

Next year, I think we're gonna. Doug and I are coming up with some December rules to kind of spice it up. So we don't have the last two weeks of the year where we don't have the competition, but we thought this would be fun. We have our Monday Wednesday trivia. I asked all of our contributors to have a blank piece of paper. And here's what we're going to do.

[D]

Hold on, hold on, hold on. Can I have an idea? Is this too quick to, like an impromptu thing? Are we live? Is this thing on? So how about. And we can have maybe Tina do this. How about we play. But then we'll just draw somebody who. From the audience that will play for somebody. How's that?

[B]

Oh, I see what you mean. And they win prizes and they win.

[D]

Yeah, they went, you know, we'll do something shirt or like a thousand dollar gift card from Jesse.

[B]

Yes, yes, let's do that. So the first three people that answer this call live, we're gonna go with them or do you guys just want to randomly select a name of the people that are scrolling right now?

[F]

I want to select the name of the person who says that she's Team Paula.

[B]

Oh, well, there we go.

[D]

We'll just. We'll just have somebody.

[B]

Margaret. Margaret. Now you are Team Paula. So Paul is playing for Margaret if she gets this right. I have now, by the way, a huge stack of books. Debeney, our wonderful intern, took all the books that we have to give away. We have over 50. You get to choose from the master list of books.

[D]

You're getting all 50?

[B]

You're getting all 50.

[D]

Merry Christmas.

[B]

And you're getting my leftover kale salad from yesterday because you lost me a kale.

[D]

So delicious. There's two more. Bruce Wayne and Rocky Mark Ventures. Who do you want, Jesse? You know, Bruce Wayne or Rocky Mark?

[E]

I can be Robin.

[D]

Batman. Batman.

[E]

I'll be Robin.

[D]

Got it.

[E]

And there you go. Rocky Mark wants to be Team OG There we go.

[D]

Let's hit it.

[B]

So B. Wayne is for Jesse and then Rocky. And by the way, everybody could win this because you guys aren't playing against each other. You're just trying to get the trivia Right, So this is like a Monday Wednesday trivia where we just have an answer. Doug's got the question. Let's see how many people are going home with some cool, cool stuff. Doug, what do you got, man?

[C]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and Joe's mom says to respect your elders. Well, the elder we pay homage to today is Googly Mo Macaroni.

[D]

Who?

[B]

That is probably not how you pronounce that.

[C]

That's not it. Let me just sound it out. Guglielmo Marconi. Got it. Marconi, who on today's date back in 1902 transmitted the first transatlantic message. Detractors of Marconi's said it would never work because the curvature of the earth would make radio waves only go about 200 miles. However, Marconi rightfully thought that the waves would bounce off the ionosphere. I was gonna say that to Marconi's first transmission, received in St. John's Newfoundland, all the way from Cornwall, England, was just a single letter in Morse code. The letter S, which I'm sure was insider trading about a cyber security company using that ticker symbol today, Sentinel 1. He was a visionary. He saw the future. However, the following letter in the Alphabet, T, is the ticker symbol for an iconic communications company. What is the name of the company with the ticker symbol T? I'll be back right after I go brew Joe's mom some tea. See what I did there? I nearly forgot. But luckily this question kept me out of the doghouse.

[A]

Kevin Harlan here. Tomorrow, the NBA on Prime crew is back as the Emirates NBA knockout rounds continue. The action heads to Las Vegas tomorrow for a thrilling semifinals doubleheader for four teams remain, but only two will move on. The last two teams standing will then go toe to toe Tuesday night, December 16th in the championship game for a shot at the cup, bragging rights and a place in NBA history. And prime is your exclusive home for all the action. So don't miss the final chase for the Emirates NBA cup coming to you live from Las Vegas, starting with the semifinals doubleheader tomorrow at 5:30pm Eastern. And Prime's also got your front row seat for the championship game, Tuesday, December 16th at 8:30 Eastern. If you're not a Prime member, that's not a problem. Sign up for a free 30 day trial to get started today. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details. And don't miss the thrilling conclusion of the Emirates NBA cup tomorrow only on Prime.

[B]

Hey folks, let me tell you that drinking and driving is A decision that will change your whole world. Things will never be the same once you get a DUI because legal fees and time in court are just the beginning. Getting into a crash is another way your world could be irreversibly changed. After drinking and driving, your vehicle may not be the only thing that gets damaged in that crash. You could face a life altering injury or even death. But you're not the only one who could face those consequences. Your decision to drink and drive could permanently change someone else's world. Whether you injure them or leave their loved ones grieving. The next time you're out drinking, call a ride, share a taxi, a sober friend, or a designated sober driver. Always plan for a safe ride home. The only decision that will change your world for the better is the decision to call for a sober ride. It's never worth it to drive drunk. Don't risk it. Drive sober or get pulled over. Paid for by NHTSA Retirement planning isn't about guesswork anymore. It's about having the right data, control and confidence. Bolden is the modern retirement planning tool built for people who want to plan their future their way. Run your own scenarios, see Advisor Quality insights and make decisions with confidence. Try it free [e-mail] Plan. All right, we are processing our guesses.

[C]

And yeah, we need some music.

[D]

How much did you wager, Paula? Oh, that's what we could have done. We could have wagered points.

[B]

We were talking about that for next year. We are definitely going to do that for next year. So we've got our three contributors trying to win for people in our YouTube audience.

[C]

And time is almost up and Paula looks like she has not written anything down yet.

[B]

Everybody got something written down?

[F]

I got something.

[D]

There you go.

[B]

Let's start with OG. Og the letter T is a ticker symbol. What do you got? A T. And T. He says. We'll see if that's right. Jesse, you have a guess. What's your guess at? And T. He says Paula has a guess.

[C]

T mobile.

[B]

She says T mobile. All right, Doug, who's taking home the bacon?

[C]

This is so good. Hey there, stackers. I'm tea lover and guy who loves saying the word oolong. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Today. Why are there so many O's at the front? Today we're celebrating Marconi's historic first transatlantic transmission from England to Newfoundland of one single letter S. But T is also famous for communications being the ticker symbol for which company. If you said T mobile, you'd be so laughably wrong. But if you said AT&T, that would be correct. So which of our contestants got it right? Turns out it looks like it's OG AT and Jesse.

[B]

OG and Jesse got it.

[F]

Sorry, Margaret.

[C]

That's hilarious. So funny. I wrote T Mobile.

[B]

When I wrote the piece, I was like, somebody's gonna say T Mobile.

[C]

Like, what loser would write T Mobile? I did not say that at all.

[B]

You know, it's funny. Back in the day, we would study ticker symbols a lot, and I just don't look at ticker symbols anymore like I used to. You just. It's so easy to just put it in the name of the company and go buy it. You don't. You don't look at them.

[F]

But yeah, I would have assumed that AT&T's ticker symbol would be ATT.

[B]

ATT.

[F]

ATT.

[B]

Turns out, not the case. But that means that B. Wayne and Rocky Mark, write to me. JoeStackyBenjamins.com I'm going to show you the master list of books, and you're taking one of those babies home. So congratulations.

[E]

Nice.

[B]

All right.

[F]

Sorry about that, Margaret. Next time. Next time.

[B]

I love how Stacker Annette said, go with your gut, Paula. It won't let you down.

[C]

And like it has for the last decade or so, Margaret says, I'm still.

[F]

Team Paula, so I'm still Team Margaret.

[C]

Girl power.

[B]

All right, let's get back to our discussion. Because it strikes me, Paula, that there are sometimes these skills that people have, and we tend to let them atrophy when we think that we're beyond it. And in fact, it's funny, one financial coach says in this piece, quote, people are taught to budget when they're trying to make ends meet. So when you're in that space of making ends meet, you're sticking with the parameters that your paycheck affords you. But then as people make more money, it's like they give themselves the ability to graduate from budgeting. But do you think, Paula, that we. We really should graduate from budgeting ever?

[F]

I think that budgeting can change form. So if you are on an extremely tight budget, really living paycheck to paycheck, then paying very close attention to how much are you spending on toothpaste versus socks versus, you know, like, you do need that level of granularity when things are really tight, because you need to be able to anticipate, like, winter is coming up, and I don't have any socks that are appropriate for winter. And that's going to be $20, and I need to make sure that I've got that 20 bucks. In terms of what do you consider budgeting? I think that as you get more money, you can still quote unquote budget or I sometimes refer to it as the anti budget, which is really budgeting with fewer categories. So with the anti budget, you whittle it down to just two categories, what you save and what you spend. Or if you wanted to add three categories, there's the needs, wants, savings. That's a three category budget. You could go a five category budget, like where you, you have like one breakout for housing, including utilities and all other housing related expenses, a different one for transportation, a different one for food and then savings and then everything else, you know. So there are ways that you can get rid of the hyper focus granularity that you need when you're paycheck to paycheck while still having some sense of where your money's going.

[B]

But Jesse, while I agree with Paula, I also think, you know, we talk a lot on this show about spending money on what you value and if you don't value it, don't waste the money. And there's a piece of me that thinks that if I go anti budget, I might do something that an afford Anything listener accused me of this last week, which is just throwing money at the problem, right? I'm just going to throw money at it because my wallet's thicker and I don't have to think about it.

[E]

I'm certainly a fan of this idea of really, really, really try to boil down your spending to what is it, the least common denominator or something like that. The point is like focus on the stuff that really brings you happiness or joy. I just think that's, that's the kind of like pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that we can always walk toward but we're never probably going to find, like we're never going to reach that kind of nirvana. So I don't know. I again, I'm just thinking about my own life. I'm thinking about people who I talk to at work or listeners or readers whoever. And it does seem like that as you increase your income, you just cut yourself that little bit of slack in the back of your mind to spend a little bit more frivolously here or there. So I don't know. I guess I'm just saying that in theory it sounds great to only spend money on the stuff that brings you the most joy or whatever it is. But I just don't think it necessarily happens in practice, especially when we have just a little bit of extra slack in the budget.

[B]

But oh gee, there's gotta be times in your life. I know there is in mind. When I'm like, what am I spending money on this for? This means nothing to me. This is the dumbest spending I could possibly be doing.

[D]

I'm an expert spender, so I'm really good at it. I don't generally think through a lot of it in terms of. I mean our life is just how our life is. And if there's extra spending that we do, it is on freedom related activities. Whether it's like taking the faster train to what we want to get to instead of the slower train and it costs a little bit extra because it's a better deal. I would rather do that to free up more freedom for me and allow me to spend time. It's more about time than it is about money. I think I would rather spend more time doing the things that I care about. And if that costs money to do, that's a good use of the money to me. If I'm spending money and it's not producing a result in terms of a freedom result of this is what I like to do with my time. That's where I find a lot of frustration.

[B]

Yeah, those are the ones that frustrate me.

[D]

I remember seeing this and I wish I could give credit to this was. Maybe it was in. I think it was in a book that I read. I have so many books around like you. It was a book about a guy who started a tech company in Vancouver. Anybody know what I'm talking about here? It's a guy who turned out to be a billionaire. He worked with Charlie Munger on a deal that was kind of his claim to fame.

[B]

Somebody's yelling to their device right now. They know exactly what this book is.

[D]

Never enough. That was the name of it. Never enough. Anyway, I think this is where this idea was. I could be mistaken. Where he said there's three levels of wealth. The first one is you mow your own grass. And then the second level of wealth is someone else mows your grass. And then the third level of wealth is you mow your own grass again. And I think a lot of us kind of go through those stuff, whatever that is, right. It's like for Jesse, it's shoveling snow. Right. Maybe you get to the point where you're like, I can finally have somebody shovel my driveway. This is awesome. I don't have to get up at 4 in the morning and clear the space. So I feel like That's a good use of money for me because it allows me to not have to do anything on Saturday morning where I would rather pursue other activities that I find more freedom in or find more value in.

[C]

Oh, gee. That comment strikes me, or I guess a strong correlation to the question Joe asked at the beginning of all of this, which is, does having more money make life easier or create more chaos? I think it was the three the cutting the grass scenario that you just brought up. Where you go from you got to do it because you don't have any money to pay anybody. Then you have a little bit of money and you pay somebody because it frees up time. But then you get to a point where maybe you're now financially independent. Whatever that means for you, at whatever level, doesn't have to mean that you're fabulously, extraordinarily wealthy. It's just you've reached a quality of life that is happiness for you. And you want to cut that grass. I do that with firewood. I love cutting my own firewood. I don't need it to heat my house to stay warm, so. So my family doesn't freeze. But I like the work and I enjoy doing it. There was a time when I didn't have the time to do it and I had to pay for it. Now I love doing it.

[D]

I live next to a green space that has. It's probably an acre of grass. You know, that's a utility easement. And every Thursday they mow the grass about six minutes earlier than they're supposed to according to HOA rules. But I'm cool like that, so I'm a bro. So I don't really rat them out. They're just getting their hustle on. But I've said to my wife no less than a hundred times, I'm like, that is my retirement job. My retirement job is going to be to wear like a bright pink shirt or bright orange shirt and wear a mask and goggles and just sit on one of the yard tractors and mow grass at a golf course or something. That just sounds like such a great use of time now versus I don't want to mow my own grass, but I'll go do a golf course at 6. Well, not 6 in the morning. That's crazy talk. So probably I'm not working at a golf course because they do that crap super early. Yeah, I don't get up until the crack of 8 o'.

[C]

Clock. They use headlights.

[B]

I feel like there's some kind of continuum here, Paula. Like we start off early in life with. I'm tracking every penny because money is the most precious resource. And what I'm hearing from our panel is as time goes on, you see how much time becomes the precious resource. And now it changes your spending.

[F]

Yeah. You know, the common thread, really it is. It's resource allocation. And we've got time, we've got money, we've got focus. Focus and attention. And I think attention, especially in. In a world of social media and eight different types of ways that people can DM you on all of these various platforms and kind of an elevated expectation of responsiveness. I think attention is an increasingly scarce resource and therefore increasingly valuable. And so I think a lot of what this discussion is, is how do we. Not just how do we budget inside any of these verticals, but how do we manage across these verticals?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, gee. One more thing that struck me as I was reading this piece was I think about this idea that when I had nothing and I knew the mission was just to have money, that was the mission. I went from very bad at it. You were the same. Very bad at it. To very good at it. Like, I became very good at it all of a sudden. But it also strikes me that is, I got more money. I then began to over complicate it. Right. I began to all of a sudden create this overabundance of systems and all this crazy stuff that just jumbled me up and made it a mess. Do you think that there's the danger of that too? That as we get on in life and more resources, that we forget how simple this equation probably should be?

[D]

I mean, this is very evident in something as simple as your investment portfolio. There's a lot of research to suggest that rebalancing more frequently than once a year provides absolutely no benefit unless there's some compelling reason. Right. The market's down 30% in June and you're like, okay, this is a good time to do it, or I got new cash, I got a bonus. It's time to invest some money. Good time to rebalance. But generally speaking, if you're just dollar cost averaging in your 401k, you should look at it once a year. Any more than that, there's no proven benefit. The same thing is true with investment allocation. How many different ETFs do you need that say S&P 500? I've got the Vanguard one and the Schwab one. It's like, okay, cool. Do you know what they both have in them? The exact same stuff in the exact same ratios. Generally speaking, plus or minus a tenth of a point here. I know, Jesse, you run into this every single day. Joe, you used to, you know, people come in with their statements like 500 pages long. I had this meeting a couple of weeks ago with somebody. I think they must have had 500 different positions. No joke with, you know, let's call it maybe a $500,000 portfolio. Like, okay, what are we doing? Like, stop. This is, you know, the juice is not worth the squeeze to borrow.

[E]

OG If I have the S and P index fund at Schwab and at Fidelity and at Vanguard, maybe you're Robinhood in there too. I'm diversified. I'm diversified, right?

[D]

That's not how that works. But I don't think I'll say who it is, but I have a good friend of mine who is in charge of a bunch of money. And we talk a lot in our group chat. One day we were talking about investment allocations. You're a really smart guy. And I said, what does yours look like? And he's like, oh, I have one fund. I have the such and such a fund, which is a fund of funds. That's an asset allocation fund. That's all stock. It's just basically 70% US and 30% international. But it's three funds in one. And I'm like, well, yeah, sure, for your kids accounts, right? But what do you have for your. How do you trade your brokerage account? He goes, no, I have one fund. I'm trying to simplify my life, not make it more complicated. I think that's my personal calling. That's a strong phrase. But personal belief system I think is I'm a simplifier. Some of us strategic coach has this great book. Dan Sullivan wrote this great book called simplifier multiplier. The theory is, is that, you know, you're one of those two. You see things through the lens of, like, simplification, or you see through the lens of how can I make this blow up? Like, how do I get this message out? Great example is this show. Joe is a thousand percent a multiplier on sacking Benjamin's. And I'm a simplifier. If we did a meeting together, he's like, I've got a thousand different things that we're doing to make this show reach 700 different places. And I'm like, should we just keep it on Apple? You know, can we just do Apple and Spotify? Like, that seems good enough, right? Like, let's keep it easy for the. For the process. And we work that well together. I think, you know, as this evolves, where you're going with this. Joe was around complexity and that sort of thing. Complexity for the sake of complexity is a really bad use of time and money, I think.

[B]

I think we need to do more. It also strikes me that more resources doesn't mean it changes our definition of fun. I mean, there's got to be some things, Paula, which are like the free things in your life don't cost you a dime. That are still some of the funnest things that you do. Name one of those things.

[F]

Just going on a long walk, especially in a park or along the river, anywhere beautiful, Anywhere outdoors. Long walk, totally free.

[B]

Fantastic. Jesse.

[E]

Oh, you're catching me off guard. All I can think of are jokes, you know, making a meal out of the neighbor's dumpster. It's just, I don't know. Hanging out with people can be really cheap. Like, just socializing, right?

[D]

Just.

[E]

Just hanging out with your family. Hanging out with people is always a good time.

[B]

I love that book, by the way. Never eat alone. And they talk about that. Some people, especially when they don't have many resources, they think, I can't invite people over to my house. But people love the idea of a potluck, like, and love the idea of just community more before COVID than after Covid. Community might be a little different now than it was what was before that. But just having this communal time is fantastic, and you don't have to have a ton of money to do it. Og as a expert spender, what's the free thing you like to do?

[D]

I was like, no, don't do it.

[B]

Just skip. You like the bike ride?

[D]

Yeah. I mean, obviously anything. You guys already talked about this stuff, but, I mean, just being outside is a great use of time and energy, in my opinion and to your point and to Jesse's, it doesn't cost hardly anything. And you can probably do it with what's in your house. To have your neighbor sit on the back porch and have a pop or a soda or whatever you're into.

[B]

Yeah, Foamy beverage. Non foamy beverage.

[D]

You choose a solo stove. To borrow something from Joe's vernacular, there.

[B]

It is, sitting around the solo stove.

[D]

You don't even 90 degrees out right now, so you can fire it up with just the sun rays at this point here in December, November.

[B]

Ish stacker. Eric. Hanging out with us says five funds or five podcasters. Which is simpler?

[D]

Exactly.

[B]

I don't. I don't know.

[D]

Should fire Doug.

[B]

I think that's A great place.

[D]

Simplify this.

[B]

End this show. Thank you so much, guys, for sharing some of your story. I thought this was a really interesting piece for us to dive into, and I hope we helped a few people make some better decisions and think a little harder about their money and really what is important to them. Let's dive into. Speaking of diving, let's dive into what all you are doing. Oh, gee, it's the middle of December, remember? What are you doing in December? Somebody's about to have a birthday in just over a week.

[D]

Doesn't feel like that, but. Okay, what are we doing? I think this is Santa brunch weekend, and I have a fantastic surprise for the family. But I can't really say it because I don't want anybody to know, but I was served up one of those Instagram ads of those gaudy, like, sport coats that are like, all Christmas stuff.

[B]

So I bought one. That's. That's a use of money right there.

[D]

Yeah, it was a. It was like $11 or something, but my wife saw it and she's like, what in the sam hell is this? I was like, oh, this is what I'm wearing to Santa brunch.

[B]

Fabulous.

[D]

Please don't.

[B]

I'm like, oh, yes, 100%, yes.

[D]

Everyone else wears a coat and tie.

[B]

That's where I got my bowling shirt, by the way.

[D]

I'm wearing this. It was on Instagram.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Just come get me, Instagram people. Paula, what's happening at the Afford Anything podcast?

[F]

We have an interview with David Bach. He's the guy who popularized the term don't buy lattes.

[B]

Never heard of the latte factor.

[F]

The latte factor. That's one of my favorite recent interviews, and that is on the Afford Anything podcast. And then, of course, Joe, there are all the episodes with you, you and I, typically on Tuesdays, not every Tuesday, but every Tuesday, ish. We will answer listener Q and A.

[B]

Where I. I kind of go off a little bit on somebody who said that. I, like, just, quote, throwing money at the problem.

[F]

That was a fun episode. We hear.

[B]

It was fun for you. I was like, what? What are you talking about? Yeah. And David Bach. What a charming guy, isn't he, Paula? We were talking about this the other day.

[F]

Awesome. Yeah, Yeah, I absolutely love him.

[B]

Fantastic man. Speaking of fantastic men, Jesse Kramer, what's going on at the Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast?

[E]

That's it. Well, right now I'm trying to think what date it is if listeners check out.

[D]

December 12th, obviously.

[C]

Obviously with the program, man.

[B]

So if you go.

[E]

We just published our 11th Ask Me Anything episode a couple days ago on December 10th. Or if you're waiting for the next episode, we're doing a past, present, future Ghost of Christmas Past, present, future, except personal finance related. I still have to figure out what it's going to be. But we're doing. We're dropping that on Christmas Eve. Should be a creative, fun episode.

[B]

Are you kidding me? You're doing Ghost of Christmas Past, present, future.

[D]

Oh, boy.

[E]

I'm gonna, like, tell some stories from my finance past. Some.

[C]

Some stories where we heard that from.

[B]

Because we're. We're dropping Doug in the Three Ghosts again on Christmas Eve.

[E]

Maybe that's where I got the idea.

[D]

Yeah, maybe.

[B]

Yeah. You and I talking about somebody who. Who, like, always comes and talks on your little thing about their own. Yeah.

[E]

Anyway, well, maybe I'll re. I'll share yours. I can repost your episode.

[B]

No, but yours is very personal. So the. The ghost.

[E]

I was gonna say mine is just gonna be personal.

[B]

Yes, present. Yes, exactly. Ours is personal for Doug. He gets visited by three ghosts in a story we totally made up. Not riffing off anything at all. Yeah. Thanks so much for everybody for hanging out with us live. We've got one more show this year and that will be. Well, by the time you hear this, we won't have what's happening live recording.

[D]

When you hear it, it will have already happened. But it hasn't happened yet.

[B]

If you want to go back in time and get some of this, it will be next Monday. But if you can't go back in time, we're going to be doing this again starting early in January. So meet us on Monday afternoons. And if you get the 201 newsletter, we will tell you exactly what time it is on Mondays. We also try to post it in mom's basement, our Facebook group. So hang out with us then. If you're able to give us a review of up to five stars, as Paula likes to say.

[F]

Up to five stars.

[B]

Up to five stars. And if you do give us a five star review, I don't want people to give us a review just so I send them a book. But if you do send me a copy of your 5 star review. I'm trying to get rid of all these. I will send you. But please don't give us a review for a book. Give it. Give us a review because you're a nice person and you just want to help us help other people find out about the show. So thank you to everybody who's done that. Already. And got a lot of books. Got a lot of books. I also got no more time in this episode except to say, Doug, what should be on our to do list after today's episode?

[C]

Well, Joe, the first thing you should do is take some advice from Paula. Don't sweat over your toilet paper. It'll only weaken the structural integrity of that one ply you bought to save money in the first place. And now you got an entirely different problem on your hands.

[B]

On your hands.

[C]

Wait for it. Wait for it. Second. No, no, don't. Don't forget the restaurant hack OG told us about. If you're a little tight on money at the end of the month, be sure to order the special next time you're out to eat. It's always the cheapest thing on the.

[B]

Menu, especially when you go out with OG it's the cheapest thing on the menu.

[C]

That's right. Yeah, things get real cheap when you travel with OG but the big lesson, don't ask Joe's mom whether she wants black tea. She'll reply that you'll get a black eye if you don't. Just start pouring. Okay, Whatever you want, Ma. Coming up.

[D]

Jeez.

[C]

Thanks to the Jesse Kramer for joining us today. You'll find Jesse's Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast wherever you're listening to us now. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fabulous podcast Afford Anything wherever you listen to the finest podcasts. And finally, thanks also to OG for joining us. Looking for good financial planning help? Head to stackingbenjamins.comog for his calendar. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Josal Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh, yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see. See you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin show.