Finding Little P Purpose: A Conversation with Dr. Jordan Grumet (SB1628)

Summary

Summary of The Stacking Benjamins Show - Episode SB1628: "Finding Little P Purpose: A Conversation with Dr. Jordan Grumet"

Release Date: January 8, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In Episode SB1628 of The Stacking Benjamins Show, hosts Joe Saul-Sehy and Doug Midler engage in a profound discussion with Dr. Jordan Grummet, commonly referred to as "Doc G." Recognized as the 2023 Best Personal Finance Podcast by Bankrate.com, the show seamlessly blends financial literacy with engaging, light-hearted conversation. This episode centers on the nuanced exploration of purpose—distinguishing between big P and little p purpose—and its impact on personal fulfillment and financial well-being.

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Guest Introduction: Dr. Jordan Grummet

Dr. Jordan Grummet is a renowned hospice physician and the author of Taking Stock and Purpose Code: How to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness, and Leave a Lasting Legacy. His work delves into the intersection of purpose, life satisfaction, and financial planning. Grummet brings a wealth of experience from his medical background and personal research into helping individuals discover and cultivate a meaningful existence.

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The Concept of Purpose: Big P vs. Little p

A central theme of the conversation is the differentiation between big P purpose and little p purpose.

• Big P Purpose: Refers to grand, overarching life missions—such as changing the world or achieving monumental societal impacts.

• Little p Purpose: Focuses on everyday activities and processes that bring joy and fulfillment without the pressure of grandiosity.

Grummet emphasizes, “Finding little p purpose is about doing things that light you up without being solely goal-oriented” ([03:46]). This distinction is pivotal in understanding how individuals can achieve personal happiness without the accompanying stress of unattainable big P goals.

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Purpose Anxiety: Definition and Indicators

Grummet introduces the concept of purpose anxiety, a phenomenon where the pursuit of purpose leads to feelings of distress and frustration. He cites that up to 91% of individuals experience some form of purpose anxiety, characterized by:

• Job and Career Hopping: Continuously changing jobs in search of fulfillment.
• Imposter Syndrome: Feeling like a fraud despite evident successes.

Joel shares a notable statistic: “Statistically, this last week is the day when people give up on their New Year's resolutions” ([04:52]), highlighting the universal struggle with sustaining purpose-driven goals.

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Distinguishing Meaning and Purpose

A critical part of the discussion is the differentiation between meaning and purpose:

• Meaning: Pertains to how individuals perceive their past and their sense of self-worth. It’s cognitive and thought-based, providing a sense of "enoughness."

• Purpose: Action-oriented, focusing on present and future endeavors. It involves active engagement in activities that provide fulfillment.

Grummet explains, “People who have a good sense of meaning feel like they are enough” ([18:48]), contrasting with those who chase purpose as a means to prove their self-worth, often leading to anxiety.

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Personal Stories and Illustrative Examples

1. Joe’s Journey to Purpose: Joe recounts his transformative year in 2024, marked by a contemplative trip to Nepal and the loss of his mother-in-law and father. These experiences prompted a deep reflection on purpose, aligning his journey with Grummet’s insights on finding meaning through significant life events.

2. The Story of Roman and Baseball Cards: Grummet shares the inspiring story of Roman, an antique store owner who discovered baseball cards hidden in an armoire. Instead of discarding them, Roman embraced this unexpected find, transforming his business focus and creating a community space for local youth. Grummet reflects, “Roman was enthralled. Instead of being angry, he was excited about baseball cards” ([32:14]).

3. Julia Child’s Purpose: Grummet discusses Julia Child as a prime example of little p purpose. Initially working for the CIA and facing career shifts, Child discovered her passion for French cuisine in France. Her pursuit of what she loved led to a cherished legacy without the initial intent of global impact.

4. Comparing with Mickey Mantle: Contrasting Roman’s purposeful engagement with big P goals, Grummet highlights that attempting to emulate a grandiose figure like Mickey Mantle without genuine passion would likely result in persistent purpose anxiety.

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The Purpose Code and Finding Purpose

Grummet elaborates on his book, Purpose Code, which provides a structured approach to uncovering and nurturing one’s little p purpose. Key aspects include:

• Identifying What Lights You Up: Engaging in activities that naturally bring joy and fulfillment.
• Building Communities: Creating meaningful connections through shared interests and passions.
• Flexibility in Purpose: Allowing one's purpose to evolve over time, adapting to changing interests and life circumstances.

He asserts, “When you have a good sense of meaning and you feel enough, then you can walk forward into the present and future and purpose and feel really good about it” ([18:49]).

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Permission to Change Purpose: Permanence vs. Flexibility

A significant takeaway from the episode is the permission to change one’s purpose. Grummet shares his personal transition from being a physician to focusing on podcasting, illustrating that purpose is not static but can evolve. He states, “Little p purpose is abundant and changeable. And you can have one or many versions of it” ([40:40]). This flexibility ensures sustained happiness and prevents the stagnation that often leads to purpose anxiety.

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Final Takeaways and Lessons

1. Embrace Little p Purpose: Prioritize daily activities that bring joy and fulfillment over grandiose life missions to achieve sustained happiness.

2. Recognize Purpose Anxiety: Be aware of the signs—such as job hopping and imposter syndrome—and address them by balancing meaning and purpose.

3. Allow Purpose to Evolve: Grant yourself the flexibility to change your purpose as your interests and circumstances shift, ensuring continuous personal growth and satisfaction.

4. Build Meaning Through Communities: Engage with others who share your passions to create meaningful connections and collaborative opportunities.

Grummet reinforces, “If you find what lights you up, you are going to impact and change the world and help other people. You are going to shine brightly and like a moth to the flame, people are going to be attracted to you” ([43:53]).

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Conclusion and Promotion of Dr. Grummet's Book

As the episode concludes, Joe and Doug express their gratitude to Dr. Grummet for sharing his invaluable insights. They encourage listeners to explore Grummet’s Purpose Code to further understand and implement the principles discussed. Grummet’s work serves as a guide for those seeking to cultivate a meaningful and purposeful life without the pressures of unattainable big P goals.

Additionally, listeners are reminded to check out the show’s resources, such as the Tax Control Triangle and Purpose Code Book Club, available on stackingbenjamins.com, to deepen their financial and personal growth journeys.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Purpose and Meaning: “When you have a good sense of meaning and you feel enough, then you can walk forward into the present and future and purpose and feel really good about it.” — Dr. Jordan Grummet ([18:49])

• Purpose Anxiety: “Up to 91% of people at some point have purpose anxiety. So this idea of purpose caused them distress, depression, anxiety, frustration.” — Dr. Jordan Grummet ([15:26])

• Flexibility in Purpose: “Little p purpose is abundant and changeable. And you can have one or many versions of it.” — Dr. Jordan Grummet ([40:40])

• Building Impact Through Purpose: “When you have a good sense of meaning and you feel enough, then you can walk forward into the present and future and purpose and feel really good about it.” — Dr. Jordan Grummet ([27:34])

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Additional Content: Tax Brackets and Saving Limits

While the primary focus of the episode is on purpose, there is also a segment discussing the 2025 changes to tax brackets and saving limits. Grummet provides practical advice on understanding marginal tax rates and optimizing retirement savings strategies, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and diversification in financial planning. However, these segments are secondary to the main theme and are summarized briefly here.

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Conclusion

Episode SB1628 offers listeners a comprehensive exploration of purpose, blending personal anecdotes, expert insights, and practical advice. Dr. Jordan Grummet’s contributions provide a roadmap for finding joy and fulfillment in everyday activities, mitigating purpose anxiety, and allowing one’s purpose to evolve naturally. This episode serves as a valuable resource for anyone seeking to enhance their personal and financial well-being through meaningful living.

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Transcript

[Joe Salsihai]

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[Doc G]

Nervous? Yes.

[Joe Salsihai]

First time? No.

[Doc G]

I've been nervous lots of times.

[Doug Midler]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And how about a rare Wednesday mentor? We talked about frugality in 2025 on Monday. So let's follow it up with intention today with the guy who's all about purpose. We lovingly call him Doc G. Dr. Jordan Grumman. In our headlines, new tax brackets and savings limits have been announced. What do you need to know when stashing those Benjamins and prepping your taxes? We'll share. And then I'll bring a hunk, a hunk of burning trivia to this heartbreak hotel. And now two guys who are the wind beneath this podcast's wings. Oh, God, it's Joe and. Oh, jj. You make me say these things.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's Doug Midler. Welcome to the Doug Midler podcast on a beautiful Wednesday. Sit back, relax. You found us. It's the Stacking Benjamin show, and we are your midweek Goodness. This is a rare week, OG because as Doug so eloquently said, begrudgingly said, we have somebody who's not the win. We're not the wind beneath your wing. Certainly, Doc G. Dr. Jordan Grummet is here. We normally don't do mentors on Wednesday. That's our Monday feature. But this week, special appearance and OG Special bonus. Yeah, as we saw in New York City, Doc G might be just a little passionate about.

[Doc G]

He has a little energy around this. He has a little energy around this. Just a sc.

[Joe Salsihai]

Just slightly. And you know what? As he points out, you should, too. And most of us, we're spending that energy in the wrong place. We're looking for these big, epic things in our life, and Doc G, I think, is going to help you relax, so. Which is going to be great. Speaking of relax, how relaxed are you OG on? You know, halfway through your first week back at work after the holiday fun?

[Doc G]

I wouldn't call it exactly. Relaxed is more of. It's a haze from the day seven or whatever number we're on of the detox. You know, like, everybody goes through the first couple weeks. When is quitting Friday? That's what I want to know. Like, when do I. Like, I saw the Apple commercial for an Apple watch. They're like, you know, the second Friday of January is quitting Friday. I'm like, yes, let's get there. When do I get to quit this nonsense? I quit quitting being unhealthy.

[Joe Salsihai]

You know what's going to happen on Sunday, by the way? Do you guys know? So January 12th. You know why January 12th is significant?

[Doc G]

What makes January 12th? When you lost your virginity, you're halfway through January already.

[Joe Salsihai]

Doug goes right for that. No, it's. I plan to, Doug. I plan to. Yes. Hasn't worked out any other year on January 12th. January 12th. Statistically, I just read this. This last week is the day when people give up on their New Year's resolutions.

[Doc G]

Oh, thank God. That's what I was talking about. I thought it was a Friday. It's like, literally in six days. All right, I got this. I can make it six more days.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's actually four days, but who's counting? Who's counting?

[Doc G]

I'm going to have a bunch of carbs and a glass of wine. It's going to be amazing.

[Joe Salsihai]

Like, well, that's done. But it was fun for 11 days and whatever number of hours you made it. Well, I got to tell you that even if you give up on your resolutions in the next few days, you know what you're not going to give up on, and that's finding your purpose. Doc G is the host of the Earn Invest podcast, our Brother podcast, where he likes to have these deeper conversations about money, about life, and frankly, a lot about purpose. His first book was about how he discovered a lot about purpose from the dying. He's a hospice doctor by trade, and in this book, he's not going to talk about the dying as much as lessons he's learned from living. And a lot of research. Just a really, really well researched book he's written on the topic. By the way, the top of this book. Oh, gee. This book has been referenced in two different places. Christine Benz from Morningstar, one of the most respected people in the personal finance space, had a book in September that was really good. She interviews Doc G about his findings from the Purpose Code, but he's going to talk about today, and that's one of the chapters in her book. And on the top of this book, Morgan Housel is a guy that writes the blurb on the top of the COVID of the book. Yeah, Doc G. Doing some great work here and you're about to hear it on today's show. But before we got that, this show is free because of some sponsors that pay for it, so you don't have to. So we're going to say hello to them. And then rare one Wednesday, mentor Docty Doc G. Doc, I can't say anything. Wow, man. What's going on? I got a case of the Doug's going on right now.

[Doug Midler]

It's not so easy, is it?

[Joe Salsihai]

Doc G, aka Dr. Jordan Grummet, talking about purpose. Well, debt can really take a toll on you. Between minimum payments and interest rates, it's really stressful. And I've been there. Stackers. And at times it feels like you just can't get ahead. Well, Navy Federal Credit Union understands debt's a huge stressor, and they're here to help. Navy Federal Credit Union has all the financial tools and resources you need to dominate debt. Here's what you do. Put together your strategy. One piece of a strategy might be to lower those interest rates as much as possible so you can sock even more toward those principal payments, Right? And right now, Navy Federal Credit Union is offering a 0% intro APR on credit card balance transfers for up to 12 months plus you can get 250 when you spend 2500 dollars in your first 90 days on a cash rewards or cash rewards plus credit card. Don't let that drag you down. Visit Navy federal.org to start dominating debt today. Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. After the intro rate expires, variable APRs are 15.15 to 18 based on creditworthiness. Rates are subject to change. ATM fees for cash advances are up to $1 at non Navy Federal ATMs. Many of you may remember that Metro founder Angelo Poli is on our show a ton and the reason we have Angelo back is because he is such an expert on the science of diet and exercise. You may know or you may not know that a few years ago when I asked about metpro, they agreed to furnish me with a coach for a while named Jesse. And to this day I I still work with Jesse because diet and exercise are such an important part of my regime. And they should be, frankly of years too. In 2025, if you want to achieve big things, you need some big health to go with that fat wallet that we're trying to help you create. The team at metpro has just helped me. They've helped thousands of individuals help perform their bodies by hacking their metabolism. If you're looking for a high touch experience working with a metabolic expert or you want access to the tools their industry leading coaches use, visit MetPro Co SB. You'll get a complimentary assessment like I had and then speak to their team to learn which option is best for you. Here's what I like Whenever I'm eating stuff that shouldn't go in my mouth, whenever I'm avoiding working out, which is something that I aspire to always do, I think of Jesse and I think about I don't want to let myself down and Jesse's going to hold me accountable. We all need accountability coaches in our corner. But even better, Jesse's not just holding me accountable, she's holding me accountable to a more scientific approach. And if you haven't heard Angela Poly on our show, not only should you sign up for the assessment with MetPro, but you should also go back and listen because you'll hear the science. One of my favorite Angela Poly lines Everything works until it doesn't. All those fad diets work until they don't. And when they don't, the boomerang effect is pretty horrible. So to take advantage of this opportunity to get a complimentary assessment from MetPro, go to MetPro co. It's not dot com, it's dot co MetPro co SB and you're going to get a complimentary metabolic profiling assessment. A one on one consultation with a MetPro coach like my coach Jesse, to help you achieve your goals this year. Course results may vary. MetPro is not a medical organization. The service is not intended to treat any illness, disease or adverse medical condition. And this is always so weird when I'm interviewing him about his topic instead of us deciding what's funny on the Stacking Benjamin show or maybe what the next topic is for Earn and invest, whatever. Jordan Gromitz here. How are you man?

[Jordan Grummet]

I'm good. Is this going to be strangely serious? I mean you and I were just used to laughing. I mean I'm very serious on Earn and invest but stacking Benjamins, all we do is laugh.

[Joe Salsihai]

You are the guy though, that I can very seriously say. We've laughed together, we've cried together, we've done it all. So maybe we're going to be closer to. I don't think it's going to be laugh or cry this, but this is going to get a little deep stackers. But let me frame it this way, Jordan. I feel like 2024 out of all the years of my life at 56 years old was the year of purpose for me. And I think that's because my year started off after a trip to Nepal which is contemplative. You know, you're halfway around the world and you're thinking about is this really what I want to do? And I do want to do a lot of that, see a lot of the world. But you also see how a lot of different people live. And you see these people and you think what if this were me? How would my purpose be different? And then my mother in law died, my dad died. That strikes me as congruent with your thinking, you know, that all these things come together. I start thinking about purpose and maybe because we collaborate so often, but also because your first book was about lessons from the dying. I think that those two kind of go together. But why for you was this a logical next step to go from lessons from the dying to let's talk living purpose?

[Jordan Grummet]

You know, I didn't think I was going to get here. I had written the book taking stock in 2022 and it was all about what the dying could teach us about money and life. And one of the main premises from this book was that we have to put a Sen of purpose, identity and connections before we start building our financial framework. And indeed we need to build that financial framework around those things. And so I'm out there marketing this book, I'm giving talks and people are coming up to me after my talks and they're angry and I never expected this. They're coming up to me angry, they're hot, they're sweaty, they're looking at me and they're saying, will you please stop telling me to find my purpose?

[Joe Salsihai]

We have, by the way, a great friend in the personal finance community who you and I were on a call with him on Friday. I'll leave his name out of it, but he was fighting with you about it on Friday.

[Jordan Grummet]

Well, I feel like purpose has become a four letter word for a lot of people. And I had never even thought about this until I was marketing, taking stock. And it happened over and over again. So the first time it happened, I'm like, it's a one off, no big deal. And it happened over and over again. I realized that there is this paradox. Purpose has been sold to us is this big important thing that we need. And in fact, the studies do show this. If you go and look at purpose in life and look at all the studies, there are tons of studies which show that it is associated with happiness, health and longevity. So this is super important.

[Joe Salsihai]

Let me give you one right now. Purpose has been proven to extend your lifespan. A 2019 study that you cite, using data from the project in the JMA Network Open, looked at the association of purpose in life and overall mortality among US adults over the age of 50.3. I don't know why it's 50.3, but purpose was measured by a seven item questionnaire and individuals were given one of five purpose scores. Based on their answers. The participants then monitor for the next five years. So they've already made it past age 50. They're monitored for the next five years. Health outcomes tracked. The study concluded that a stronger sense of purpose in life was associated not only with decreased overall mortality, but also with a lower risk of dying of heart, circulatory and blood disorders, specifically. Meaning we get hit by a car, that's random, but the internal stuff, not so much.

[Jordan Grummet]

Yeah. So we know on one side that purpose is very good for us.

[Doc G]

Right.

[Jordan Grummet]

If we could take a pill, if someone said, here, take a pill and you're going to have all these good outcomes, you would take that pill. On the other side of this, we have people like the people who would confront me at these talks and these conferences who feel a huge amount of anxiety. And in fact, other studies, Alyssa Rainey was the person who did some of the initial studies on this show that up to 91% of people at some point have purpose anxiety. So this idea of purpose caused them distress, depression, anxiety, frustration. And so the big question is, how can it be both things? How can it be A, utterly important and B, very anxiety provoking.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's funny, you talk about purpose anxiety. A couple of the flags that you might be suffering from that you say job hopping is a flag that you might have purpose anxiety. Why is that?

[Jordan Grummet]

Because people basically think that by getting this job it's going to solve all their problems, they're going to find a sense of purpose and everything's going to be great. And then they get within this job and they're like, something doesn't feel right. I'm not exactly there. I'm not doing the thing I should do. And so what's the answer? It's to switch jobs. And so people go and they hop job to job.

[Joe Salsihai]

I haven't found my purpose. This is not my purpose. I got to go find my purpose.

[Jordan Grummet]

Yeah, yeah. And so, yes, we also do that for money. Right. Some people do it because they want to keep on getting paid more. But a lot of times in career hopping is the same thing, is where people go from career to career to career because they're searching for something and they haven't yet found it. And it feels unsettling.

[Joe Salsihai]

It sounds like you too. Like I still haven't found what I'm looking for. Exactly.

[Jordan Grummet]

They sing about it for a reason.

[Joe Salsihai]

I've climbed the highest mountains well, actually, you think about it, they totally have. I climbed the highest mountains I've gone through the fields Only to be with you But I still have a phone I'm looking for still have no idea. I have some friends like that. Not just job hopping or career hopping, but I have a friend who's a mountain climber and is successful and very happy. But we always think he's climbing the next peak. We can't figure out why, but he's searching for something that we know he's not going to find. He just has this about him, you know what I mean? This feeling. I get this feeling around him that he's on this quest for the thing and he knows it's not at the top of that next mountain. I know it's not at the top of that next mountain. He isn't going to stop.

[Jordan Grummet]

I think this is actually one of the fundamental problems and actually Highlights the difference between meaning and purpose, which I think people really get confused. In the book I talk about this idea that you need both meaning and purpose to be happy. I think they're two of the key components. But people think they're the same thing and they aren't. And it reminds me of your friend, the mountain climber, and here's why. Meaning is about our thoughts and it's about how we think about our past. It's the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. It's very cognitive, not action based, thought based, and it's about our past. People who have a good sense of meaning feel like they are enough, right? So they say, I had trauma when I was younger, I went through bad things, but I made my way through it and I got to this place, I succeeded. And they're very optimistic and happy. Whereas people who are unhappy tend to feel like victims, like they had trauma, things didn't work out, and the reason they're lacking today is because they were victims. But what you're really talking about is having a sense of meaning kind of gives us a sense of enough. Like the happy people, like I always was enough and I got through this, whereas the unhappy people say I wasn't enough. And here's where we get into people like your friend. People who don't have a good sense of enoughness and meaning think they can purpose their way to enough and happiness. They think that instead of going back in their thoughts and cognitively thinking about themselves and telling better stories, instead they move to the purpose, which is about present and future and it's all about actions.

[Joe Salsihai]

I'm going to climb that mountain.

[Jordan Grummet]

If I just climb that mountain, once I get there, I'll finally feel enough and it'll be great. And of course what happens, they don't feel enough. Because purpose is not about enoughness. It's about action and it's about present and future. And you can't purpose your way to a sense of meaning, happiness or enough that has to do with meaning. And you need both. Because when you have a good sense of meaning and you feel enough, then you can walk forward into the present and future and purpose and feel really good about it. Because then all you have to do is find things that light you up. You don't have to rely on some goal or the top of the mountain to prove that you're good enough. You can just enter every day doing this thing, this process you enjoy, and that's enough.

[Joe Salsihai]

This is that let down we all feel when we get to the end of the race, we get to the end of the thing and we realize that. That I still showed up. Like, it's still. It's still the same me.

[Jordan Grummet]

Yeah. And so here's the funny thing. So people who love running don't feel the letdown when they reach the end of the race. But people who reach the end of the race. Cause they're trying to prove themselves enough. Do. And so, Joe, for instance, I have a feeling you really love running, from what I know of you. So my bet is that when you reach the goal, you're like, this is great, but it doesn't change. You still go out and run and still enjoy it because it is what it is. But people who are doing it just to reach the goal, they'll find that they spend a lot of time doing things they don't like. So 90% of your time, you're spent doing things you don't enjoy to get to those few minutes or hours where you're really rejoicing in the goal, and then it dissipates and you're like, now I have to hit the next goal.

[Joe Salsihai]

It is so funny. My son loved running at first when he was young. And then he got to the point that he really liked winning. And when he stopped winning, when running got hard, as he got a little bit older and other kids started maturing, he got incredibly frustrated. My daughter was kicking people's ass while she was running. She didn't care. And it's. It's interesting, just the difference between those two things. I want to clarify this, not just for you, Jordan, but for all of our stackers. I don't enjoy running. I enjoy eating a lot.

[Jordan Grummet]

And that allows me.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's what I like. Yes. And I think about that. So one. One definitely leads to the other. There's one more thing you say which is another red flag around purpose anxiety, and that is imposter syndrome. How is imposter syndrome a flag about purpose anxiety?

[Jordan Grummet]

Oh, I think a lot of people start doing something new, and then what they tell you is, I'm afraid that I'm not at the level that I can do this. I'm not good enough. I'm doing something, and I'm too much of a novice. But I think the bigger question also becomes, is this something I really want to do? Is this purposeful? Does this fill me up? And so I think often people use the excuse of, am I good enough to do this? But what they're really saying is, am I faking this because it feels purposeful, or is this what I really want to do with myself.

[Joe Salsihai]

So you're saying if you experience imposter syndrome, your head just might not even be in the right place?

[Jordan Grummet]

Yeah. You might be doing the wrong thing, and it might not feel like it fits because it's not actually what lights you up.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's interesting because when I've given people advice before, podcasters specifically, that tell me they feel like an imposter is there on the microphone, My answer to that always is, are you focused on you and your brilliance? Are you focused on helping your audience? If you focus on helping your audience, I don't think you're going to suffer imposter syndrome. If you focus on how brilliant you're going to be on the microphone, then maybe.

[Jordan Grummet]

And a big question about it, too, is, so when I first started podcasting, and even now, still, I often feel that rush of excitement, adrenaline, and even fear that I won't show up when I come to the microphone. But I realized, for me, that's excitement. It feels like anxiety or fear or panic. But what it really is is I want to kill this so bad. And I'm so interested in having this conversation that I've now reframed that. And so if that's you, if that imposter syndrome is, I care so deeply about this that I want to do it, well, then it probably isn't purpose anxiety. But if it's, I don't belong here and this doesn't feel right, and I feel like I'm being a fake, it may just be purpose anxiety.

[Joe Salsihai]

You begin. You know how much I love stories. Heck, you love stories. We bond over them.

[Jordan Grummet]

I love stories. Yes.

[Joe Salsihai]

Let's tell some stories. You start off with a great story from Julia Child, which, speaking of food, one of my favorite. Anytime we talk about a chef, I'm like, I'm in. That's a good place to start. Tell us about Julia Child.

[Jordan Grummet]

Well, she is a great example of purpose. She had a long, storied career before she even discovered food. I mean, she worked for the CIA making this crazy concoction that they were actually trying to feed to sharks so that they wouldn't eventually attack service members. And so that was as close to cooking as she got. And she was kind of adrift. She tried writing a book. It didn't work. And she was traveling with her husband, who worked in the foreign service. She ends up in France. She eats this French cuisine and like a bolt of lightning, realizes, I want more of this in my life. Right.

[Joe Salsihai]

Or my tummy. Or my tummy. Yes.

[Jordan Grummet]

Or both or whatever it was. And that became purpose for her. But funny enough, it wasn't I want to write a life changing book about this. It wasn't I want to be on TV about this. It was this lights up my soul. And so she went and pursued that and she went to the Cordon Bleu and actually failed her first test. She started writing what would be one of the most famous cooking books out there. And it took her 10 full years, but she loved it. And you hear this in her writing, you see it in the documentaries about her. She loved every moment about it. And that's really the distinction I try to make in this book. This idea of doing things that light you up and you love, regardless of some big outsized goal that you feel you should choose for yourself. And so I use the term little P purpose and big P purpose, but what I'm really talking about is process oriented purpose doing things we love doing. And she's a great example of someone who had huge impact in legacy, but that was never really her plan. Her plan was to pursue this thing that she loved, that she wanted to spend her days being involved with, but because she was intentional, because she loved it, it lit her up. It naturally connected her to other people. She formed communities, she made partnerships. Eventually she changed the world. But I don't even think that was ever her plan. And I think that's a great template for what purpose should look like in the rest of our lives.

[Joe Salsihai]

You have always bristled when I've used words about thinking of chasing your legacy, like thinking about your legacy. It's almost like you're pressing the buzzer, like, nope.

[Jordan Grummet]

Well, here's the thing. I think legacy and impact are important, but I think when we shoot for legacy and impact, we place these big audacious goals in front of us. And we often choose things that are really hard to reach. Often we don't have agency. And I blame a lot for this. I think it's human nature. But I think also social media and marketing, all of this teaches us that if you live in America, if you can think it, you can achieve it, right? So it's not that I should do well financially, it's that I should be a billionaire. It's not that I should run for the local school board, it's that I should be president of the United States. It's not that I should take flying lessons. It should be I should be a NASA astronaut. And the problem with these really big audacious goals that we think are going to leave A big audacious legacy is that many times we don't actually have agency to achieve them. I hate to tell you, but just because you can think something doesn't mean you can achieve it. In fact, for a lot of these very difficult things, you have to be the right person at the right time, saying the right things, have the right genetics, and actually be really lucky. And so if you set your vision of happiness, purpose and impact and legacy on these really big things that are hard to attain, you're most likely going to be frustrated, you're going to have purpose anxiety because you're going to think that this thing is my purpose and I keep banging my head against the wall and I can't reach it. Whereas I think a better thing to do is to focus on things we have real agency over. If you start doing things that you enjoy the process of doing in the same manner, it will light you up. And because it lights you up, it will attract other people to you. And I believe that's where real impact and legacy lies. And not only impact and legacy, but a lot of studies show that real happiness lies in those interpersonal connections. It's when we affect the people around us that, that impact and legacy can continue sometimes for generations and hundreds of miles away from where you started.

[Joe Salsihai]

I feel like we start off on the wrong foot. I saw a very disturbing statistic this summer that 26% of American high schoolers, the number one thing they want to be when they quote, grow up is an influencer. Yeah. And then the gentleman that was telling us this story said, then when I see some of these people and he goes and he talks to high schools and he starts telling them what it really means to be an influencer. The sustainable business, the behind the scenes, the, the scripting, the work, the care that it takes. I don't want that. I don't, I don't want any of that. I want to go viral. My goal is just viral.

[Jordan Grummet]

I think the problem is society wants us to co opt someone else's version of purpose. And often the people who really want us to do this are people who have something to gain from us. So influencers want you to have the six pack abs, they want you to travel to all these different countries, they want you to run the eight figure business because they want to sell you something or they want you to follow them so they can sell things to marketers and advertisers and marketing and advertising want to sell you all these beautiful images of the person you could be so that you will buy their product. But it's not just social media influencers and marketers. It's actually our families and parents and society tell us that you need to be a doctor or a CPA or a lawyer. We grow up thinking that when we are little kids, especially before we get into phones, we think that we can go out, spend the day doing anything we choose and have a ball and that's fine. And so little kids understand purpose, they get involved with things. You and I have talked about flow and play. Little kids understand play and so they get into a flow state by doing things they feel are purposeful and they don't care about the goal, they don't care about the outcome, they don't care about making a living. But something happens as we grow older and fall prey to all these other influences like social media and marketing and even society's expectations. And we put all that joyful stuff aside and decide that we need to do things that get us to that career, that make us that money. I believe some of that is necessary because there's a time in life you do have to become serious and start thinking about planning what your future is going to look like. For many of us those things don't fill us up. And so we put aside this idea of little P purpose doing things we enjoy the process of doing because they fill us up and instead replace it with very goal oriented purpose. And again I think that's fine as we're growing up and building a career and building families and those kind of things. But they don't necessarily always light us up and I think eventually we pay the price for that.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's funny, you'll see this on even week to week, day to day. I think in our everyday life, like as you know, you and I love what we do here. We love this discussion. I told you how much I was excited about having this discussion and now I'm in it and I'm enjoying the hell out of it. But last week as we recorded this, I just got home from fincon. Fincon is about the business of doing what we do right. And so from Sunday through about 2:30 in the afternoon Wednesday I was hardcore Joe Salsi, high businessman. And I can't tell you Jordan, how hard I hit the wall Wednesday afternoon and then Thursday I was in ADD land me, I just could not stay focused and thank God, goodness that I have enough control over my schedule that I made sure that I was fully booked up. So I would just go from meeting to meeting, meeting. I didn't have to think it's like, if you've got add, that's the best thing to do. Just make it so you don't have to think. But you know what I figured out on Friday? I figured out on Friday that what was missing was the little p purpose piece of this that I love, which is Joe, the creative dude. I had no Joe, creative dude for all of fincon. No Joe, creative dude through the next several days. And it was like my creative side going, no, this crap's. Who cares about the business? You should be having these discussions, be having fun. You should be, you know, writing scripts and doing the stuff that really lights you up. So it may not crash your career, but it still can crash your week. You and I are really bridging on. And I know you want to answer that, but I think you're going to answer that more fully with what I want you to do next, because we're diving into this next area that I want to pivot to. But the way we get there, I think Jordan is through another great story. And this story is the story of your friend Roman. Tell me who Roman is. How did you meet this guy and what a character he seems to be.

[Jordan Grummet]

Roman is a guy who changed my life, and I don't think he ever meant to. So, Roman, that's what you say about me, isn't it? All the time. All the time. Joe and Roman, I put them right next to each other in the book. Roman was a football player in high school. He blew out his knee, couldn't play anymore. Eventually, he decided he didn't want to go to college and he was going to run his father's antique store. He eventually took it over. And in that antique store, basically, he would refinish furniture, things like that, and then sell it in his shop. And one day he came across an armoire, and he opened up one of the doors and found a bunch of baseball cards. Didn't know what to do with them. Called the guy who sold him the armoire. The guy said, I don't want him. So he put him on his desk. Didn't think about it. But a few days later, you know, a woman walked in with her snarky teenager, and the teenager took a look at the baseball cards, threw them on the counter, and said, I'll give you 10 bucks for everything. Roman was like, great. I wasn't going to do anything with him anyway. Teenager gives him the 10 bucks, spreads them out, points to two or three cards and say, these alone are worth a hundred each. The whole total, like these three cards Are worth a hundred still?

[Joe Salsihai]

Yes. Yeah, it was 10x.

[Jordan Grummet]

Instead of being angry, Roman was enthralled. And just like Julia Childs we talked about before, he felt this inkling, this beckoning that something important was happening here. And so he got excited by baseball cards. He decided he wanted to sell baseball cards in his antique store. He hired the snarky teenager right there, right then. And then he had to build a life of purpose around this. So he's like, I have this inkling. There's this thing that feels purposeful to me. But then he had to learn about baseball cards. He had to stock them. He had to start marketing them to people. But over the years, he did that, and, in fact, ended up selling more baseball cards than antiques, Although that was never his plan. He just really enjoyed this.

[Joe Salsihai]

You said this antique store is full of baseball card aficionados.

[Jordan Grummet]

Yeah. And what happened is he created a community of kids like me. Now, at that time, my father had died when I was 7. I had a learning disability. I didn't have a lot of friends. I didn't have a community. I didn't have a place to be on Saturday afternoons. But all of a sudden, I did. And I would go into Roman's store, and there would be friends there. And if I had a bad day, he'd give me a free pack of baseball cards, and we'd open it. And many, many kids like me found a community there. And we thrived. We eventually grew up and left. And we left his store with a confidence that we wouldn't have had otherwise. And some of us became doctors. I'm sure some of us became lawyers. I'm sure some of us sold stuff like he did. Roman actually got cancer and had to close up his antique store and eventually died. But 30 years later, I'm still talking about Roman. And the amazing thing is, he never set out to change my life. He never set out, actually, even to start a community. He found this thing that lit him up, this little p. Purpose, and he pursued it, and it led to impact and legacy that's still being felt today. And interestingly enough, I like to contrast this with Mickey Mantle. See, Mickey Mantle was a baseball player I loved, and I loved collecting his cards. But 30 years later, Mickey Mantle didn't do anything for my life. And, in fact, if I had modeled myself after Mickey Mantle and decided I wanted to be just like Mickey Mantle, the likelihood is I would never have. I would have never made it to major league baseball. I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't fast enough I wasn't good enough at it. The coaches in my area weren't the all star coaches you need. If I had tried to become Mickey Mantle, if that was my sense of purpose instead of the little P purpose of learning from Roman, if it was big P purpose I wanted to become a baseball player, I would have had purpose anxiety. I would have been frustrated. I would have felt like I never reached my dreams. And so I really took a lot from Roman and his version of purpose. And I think there are a lot of us out there in the world today practicing our own version of purpose because he gave us permission, and he gave us a model of what it looks like to be lit up by something you love.

[Joe Salsihai]

What I love about that story and also the connection to your story, my story, Julia Child's story, what always freaked me out about purpose. And I remember this. When it came to charitable giving, I got really frustrated with the fact that I thought that part of my purpose was charitable giving, right? That I need to give back. I saw. I worked with these very powerful people when I was a financial planner, and they all gave back to their communities. And I. I saw that this was a part of their mission. I could feel that it wasn't just for marketing purposes or to tell people, hey, look at how cool I am. Although I did meet some of those people for the most part. These were some of the best people I ever met. Just amazing. And they were successful because they were such givers. And I didn't have that. I didn't feel anything.

[Jordan Grummet]

I didn't.

[Joe Salsihai]

I didn't have this, oh, I need to give a bunch of money or give a bunch of time, give a bunch of whatever to this cause. And then I decided I actually got some good coaching that told me this, that maybe it doesn't start there. And this seems to be what you're saying, Jordan, Maybe it doesn't start there. Maybe it starts with just getting your hands elbow deep in some issue and give yourself the courage to have the purpose find you. And so I just picked one. I picked the Arthritis foundation because my mom has arthritis, and a client of mine was the head of the Arthritis Foundation. I didn't know crap about arthritis. Six months later, Jordan, I was the biggest advocate for more research in the area of arthritis, especially juvenile arthritis, because when I actually let my legs do the walking instead of sitting around worrying about what the hell's my purpose, I felt like it. It found me. I think that's what you're saying.

[Jordan Grummet]

In fact, I. I would change the wording a Little bit. I don't think we really find purpose. I think we find these things. We have inklings or beckonings towards. So for Roman, it was baseball, Julia Childs, it was French cooking. So I think we find these inklings and beckonings, but what we really do is we build or create a life of purpose. And so the key here is, and I think this is where people get things wrong. If you find what lights you up, you are going to impact and change the world and help other people. You are going to shine brightly and like a moth to the flame, people are going to be attracted to you. People want to collaborate. People who want know things, so want to teach you. People who need to learn things, so they want you to teach them. And that's that interconnectedness. I mean, Joe, you and I are a great example. You and I are both lit up by podcasting, by creating, by getting involved in what to me was little P. Purpose, which was podcasting. I eventually attracted to meet people like you, right? And you said, aha, that guy. I have something I can teach to. And because you and I both dug the same thing, and you saw me and you're like, oh, he's lit up by this. I want to get involved in that. And I saw the same in you. And you're like, oh, he loves teaching this thing, and this is something he's really good at. But you and I now can collaborate together and create things that help people. So it's not just about me and you. It sounds selfish. In the beginning, it's like little p. Purpose. Find what you enjoy the process of and what lights you up. It's all about you. But in the end, you create something much bigger than you that can go out there and change the world. And I think. I think that's the basis of all of this. It's the cheat code. It's the easy way. As opposed to what most people do is create these big, audacious plans and then chase most of their life doing things they don't like doing in order to get there.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, I'm glad you said that, that you brought that up, because there's another piece that you draw attention to that I think we need to shine a light on, which is this. This idea of permanence. You make a big point that what lights you up today. I think part of the reason people get anxiety is we think this has to be forever. This has to be my thing forever. And you go, no. It seems for me. Well, we see this with you. I feel like you used to really get lit up by your work as a physician. There are pieces of it that light you up now, but not like it used to. And now you're moving on to other things that light you up. Like, I feel like part of your mission here, too, is to give people permission to go. You know what? This can be Little P, and it doesn't have to be forever.

[Jordan Grummet]

Yeah, I mean, we're talking abundance here. And this, again, is the difference between Little P and Big P. Big P, purpose is kind of scarcity, mindset oriented. It's either like, I find my purpose in life is good, or I don't find my purpose in all is lost. I either change the world or I don't. I either get to the top of the mountain or I fail somewhere in between. But, Little Pete, purpose is much more abundant, which means we can find purpose in a million different things. And some of those things might be lifelong. So being a physician, for me, that sense of purpose lit me up up until a certain age, and then I realized that it didn't fit me anymore. But a piece of it, a small piece of it. Hospice work might be lifelong, whereas podcasting has now become a huge part of my purpose. Will it last forever? I don't know. But I give myself permission to do it as long as I love the process of doing it.

[Joe Salsihai]

But the cool thing is that, oh, this might have been where you were going, but the cool thing is you're also giving yourself permission to go, you know what? I'm done.

[Jordan Grummet]

It's not filling me up anymore. And if it gets to that point, and here's what I think really is the lesson, and I can't say this any more clear, I know from being a physician, from seeing people die, I know that we have a set period of time in this world. Yes, we can do things like exercise.

[Joe Salsihai]

Spoiler alert.

[Jordan Grummet]

Yeah, we can exercise and not smoke and wear seatbelts. And we might have slightly more time than if we didn't do these things. But you have a set period of time on this earth, and you can't buy it, you can't sell it, you can't trade it. You can't do anything but control the activities you're involved in as time passes. And so I like to look at these as time slots. Call it days, weeks, months, years, hours, whatever you like to call your time slot. Winning the game is filling those time slots with as many things as you love and getting rid of as many things as you loathe. So what do you love? I Call it little P purpose. It's doing the thing that puts you in flow, that makes you feel good, that makes you feel like life has meaning and that you're impacting people and making connections. And so it behooves us to constantly reevaluate, to look at our calendar and reevaluate the calculus of how many hours are we spending doing things we don't like and how many hours are we spending things we do like. And so little P purpose is abundant and it's changeable. And you can have one or many versions of it. That version can feel like it's changing the world, but it doesn't have to. And you can switch from time to time as long as you're looking at your calendar and you're progressively getting better. So when you're 25 years old, you might spend more time doing things like work that you don't love in service of a later you or making money or doing whatever you need to do. But the older you get, you want that calendar to get better and better every year. Every year, you want it to be filled with more that you love and less that you loathe. And the way we do this is we develop a sense of love for doing things that light us up. We think about these inklings, these beckonings, what I call purpose anchors, and then we actively build a life of purpose around them. And it's only as good as it serves you. And it's fine to pivot the minute it stops serving you.

[Joe Salsihai]

Jordan's latest project is called the Purpose Code, how to unlock meaning, maximize happiness, and leave a lasting legacy. And Doc G, it's available everywhere. Jordan, man, thank you so much for being our mentor today. I super appreciate this. I appreciate this work. I appreciate all your work and obviously appreciate your collaboration on all of our projects.

[Jordan Grummet]

It has been a blast not only working with you, but having the privilege of being your guest today.

[Doug Midler]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe. Mom's neighbor, Doug. And have you ever wondered about some of those unexplainable things in life? We've all heard about the Kennedy Lincoln coincidences, haven't we? For those people who've locked themselves off social media, first, congrats. And second, listen to these facts. It's gonna blow you away. First, Lincoln and Kennedy both have seven letters in their names. Second, both were elected to Congress in a year that ended in 46. Third, both of their assassins were born in the same year, had three names comprised of exactly 15 letters. I mean, and the list just keeps going on and on. Well, listen to this one I discovered just today. Elvis Presley also had some weird coincidences, and they stem from today's date. Get this. Presley was both divorced on this date and born on this date. I mean, what are the odds? How could anybody have seen that coming? Like everything, it's a mystery. Science can't explain it. One mystery will end today, though. The answer to today's trivia question what woman was a star on the film the Naked Gun and TV show Dallas was the woman Presley divorced, who also later was the person most responsible for growing the family fortune after Elvis died. I'll be back right after I tie up the these blue suede shoes. I know Elvis wasn't the first one to sing that song. I just have to tie him up. All right. Why does everything have to be a tie in? You're thinking too much. How high is the interest rate for the new Laurel Road High Yield Savings account?

[Joe Salsihai]

This high.

[Doug Midler]

The air is really, really, really thin up here. The Laurel Road Very High Yield Savings.

[Doc G]

Account Variable annual percentage yield APY is subject to change at any time. No minimum balance required. Fees may reduce earnings on the account. For full terms and conditions, see laurelroad.com savings. Laurel Road is a brand of KeyBank member FDIC.

[Progressive Insurance]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you can save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Jordan Grummet]

Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two year contracts, they said, what the are you talking about? You insane Hollywood. So to recap, we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a [e-mail] switch.

[Doc G]

$45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees. Extra Speed slower above 40GB.

[Joe Salsihai]

Details.

[Doug Midler]

Hey there stackers. I'm Jailhouse Rocker and the guy who who does it his way, Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. Today we're commemorating the weird coincidence that Elvis Presley was both born today and divorced today from a woman who later would go on to grow the Presley fortune after the singer's death. What actress are we referring to? Of course, it was none other than Priscilla Presley. And now let's get back to two guys who will never have a little less conversation. Joe.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, I see what you did there, Doug. I see what you did there.

[Doug Midler]

A little less doubt, a little more conversational.

[Joe Salsihai]

By the way, OG, nice job there too, man. What's that?

[Doug Midler]

It's a side gig for me.

[Doc G]

I would like to point out to the Department of Corrections that I doubt that the assassins for both of the presidents, I doubt that they were both born the same year.

[Doug Midler]

I know there was a little grammatical writing error that I just figured people are going to understand this, but thank you for pointing it out.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, they're both born in a decade or, I mean, a century later.

[Doug Midler]

Right? But like the same year in their respective centuries.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yes.

[Doc G]

So not the same, but yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

By the way, Priscilla Presley didn't grow Elvis's fortune by a little. Listen to this. The fortune when Elvis passed away was $5 million.

[Doc G]

That was a trivia question one time, long time ago. I remember it was.

[Doug Midler]

Yep.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah.

[Doug Midler]

Valued.

[Joe Salsihai]

Valued recently at $500 million. And that's all due to Priscilla Presley and of course, the team that. That did that professionally under her leadership and management. Just phenomenal. Speaking of phenomenal, OG, you know how much pushback we always get.

[Doc G]

Thank you.

[Joe Salsihai]

And Doc G always gets.

[Doug Midler]

Keep talking, Joe. Say it fast. He might not be able to squeeze that in.

[Joe Salsihai]

His ability to misinterpret the amount of pushback that Doc G gets. And frankly, we get whenever we talk about purpose is big. I think Jordan is onto this. Talking about purpose scares the hell out of people, OG it's like, oh, man, do I. I'm getting close to retirement. I don't know what my purpose is. It just totally freaks people out. So I love this idea about focusing on, quote, little P. You know, focus on what's those. What are those things that light you up? Let's do more of those.

[Doc G]

Kind of ties in a little bit nicely to what Jen and Jill were talking about. Just kind of working on the things that find excitement. And what did you like about that? Not, not what did you do, but what did you like about that thing that you did? And then it becomes a little bit easier to find that enjoyment or that perspective in other things, you know, like Doc G is talking about here. That can lead you down the path of discovery, basically, as opposed to, like Just going, well, I can't possibly imagine what this big giant thing might be for me, so therefore I'm not going to deal with it. It's like, well, yeah, but you've had things in your life that you liked. Go find the things that you liked and try to recreate that in other aspects.

[Joe Salsihai]

There's a friend of mine, OG to your point, that kind of had the gen experience of she realized that she really liked hanging out with her friends. It wasn't going to the restaurant. It was, I like hanging out with my friends and socializing that I liked. And a couple of her friends belonged to a local nonprofit in the town that they lived in. And so they began then volunteering at this nonprofit. Really, in the beginning, it was less about the nonprofit as it was about just spending more time with this community. Before she knew it. She's actively involved and she's very passionate about this thing. And so Big P kind of finds her by just, you know, going. Being around these friends in this community lights me up. And hey, if we're doing something that helps other people too, that's great too. Like, that's fantastic. Super way to combine the two. Let's move on to our headline.

[Jordan Grummet]

Hello, darlings.

[Doc G]

And now it's time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamin's Headlines.

[Joe Salsihai]

Today's headline comes to us from USA Today and is written by Celine Martin. But of course, this information you can find all over the place because tax brackets are out, of course, for 2025, and the amount you can save has been revealed. Of course, I'm talking about saving into things like Roth IRAs, your 401k, 457, 403b. Those numbers are all published. Everybody is, of course, now turning to preparing your taxes in 2025, and there are going to be adjustments in more than 60 tax provisions. But of course, the two big ones we're focused on here at Stacking Benjamins are, number one, the changes to the tax brackets. And then number two is, of course, the amount that you can save into these different places. How important is it? OG you know, we'll link to these actual numbers. I'm not going to read these. I'm not going to read these. TABLE here's the text.

[Doc G]

TABLE like, that's good audio from zero to $12,105. If you're single.

[Joe Salsihai]

I'll link to this on our show notes so you can get all this great information. OG what I really want to focus on is what is it about the tax brackets? You think we really need to know, like, just conceptually, what do we need to know about tax brackets that either A, people don't think about enough, or B, people just playing might get wrong?

[Doc G]

Well, I think there's two things here. Firstly is, well, maybe there's even more. The first thing that comes to mind is the concept of marginal rates. And for some reason, you know, we just haven't quite grasped this yet as a society. It's like, oh, I don't want to earn this much because then I'll be in the 32% bracket. It's like, okay, but that's okay. I mean, it's. It's better to have more than not more in most cases. And by the way, it's marginal. So what that means is, is that it's just that extra dollar that goes into that bracket. So if you're like, oh my gosh, I made an extra $5, I'm in the 12% bracket, I'm in the 30%, like, whatever that is, it's just that extra dollar that's taxed at that higher rate, not all the rest of the money. And I think for some reason, we kind of miss out on that. That's probably the first realization that I think would be helpful. The second thing around savings and investing is it doesn't take a lot of time. But I believe if you haven't sat down and done the math on your saving, let's say that you're maxing out your 401k or you're going to max out your Roth this year, it requires you to make a little bit of a change to get that number evenly distributed. If that's your plan. If your plan is, I'm going to put the same amount in every paycheck to get there, or the same amount every month to get to my Roth max or whatever, you have to make that change to account for the fact that it's gone up a little bit. It went up with IRA contributions, it went up with your 401k, it went up with your HSA by a little bit. So, like, all of these require little tweaks, unless your income is so high that you can put a percentage in and still max it out. But in most cases, you still want to spread it out throughout the whole year, unless your company is for sure doing what's called a true up in your 401k. Because a lot of companies, if you stop putting money in, they stop putting money in. So if you're like, oh, I got a big bonus in February I'm going to take all that money and put it in my 401k right now. If your company doesn't do a true up at the end of the year, you're going to miss out on all that contribution that you would have gotten had you distributed evenly throughout the through year. So I think it just takes a little bit of time, so there's not a surprise, you know, at the end of the year. But statistically, if you do have the cash, and I know a lot of people get excited about this, which is cool, if you do have the cash, you can do all, all the money in your Roth IRA right now. You can put all the money in your HSA right now. You can put all the Money in your 401k right now. If your company does that calculation, like I mentioned, and you know, statistically, you're still dollar cost averaging. You're just doing it on an annual basis, not on a weekly or monthly basis. So don't let that dissuade you. And you get the whole year of that money invested, which in theory makes it worth more. I like the idea of simplicity, Joe. You and I have a friend who on the 1st of every year pays all of his bills in advance for a year. Like, he sits down and goes, I know that I paid the electrical company last year 500amonth. I paid him $6,000. I'm writing them a check today for $6,000 so I don't have to. There's no mental energy expended in doing that. And I know a lot of people are going, wait a second, that's ridiculous. Letting the water company or letting the, you know, electrical company or letting your mortgage like, well, he doesn't have a mortgage. But you get the idea letting all these places, like hold onto your money for a year. And in his mind, the stress of not having to pay bills for the whole year is way better than the stress of like, oh my gosh, I'm going to lose out on 600 bucks of interest. So if you can simplify things, if you can make it from a decision standpoint, you know that I think that's super helpful. Back to the taxes. People get stressed out about taxes. Don't. It's just a calculation. I think the best time to do your tax calculation is going to be in the third quarter, wait for the year to kind of start getting going. Now's not the time to. I mean, you can do it, but I wouldn't put a lot of energy in trying to plan your tax strategy for 2025 right now. Let the year happen. Get into July, get into August, see where you're at. See how your job situation looks like maybe you got a pay raise, maybe you got a bonus. You can sit down on the IRS website and do some calculations. It still gives you five or six months to catch up, you know, if you're a little behind. But that's how I think about it anyway. Knock out the big decisions that you can do once. Don't worry about marginal brackets and do an in depth calculation, maybe 1st of August.

[Joe Salsihai]

Your bias when it comes to saving. And we'll get to how savings rates have changed in 2025 because they have not in every type of account, but they have some that I think is going to excite some of our stackers. But is your bias toward pre tax or the Roth just generally?

[Doc G]

Yeah, yep, that is my bias. Correct? My bias is.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yes, your bias is all the above.

[Doc G]

My bias is saving. I mean, here's the thing. There's no way to predict what the future tax rates are going to be. And for the last 25 years, my.

[Joe Salsihai]

Bias is toward the Roth. Oh, geez. Just that one statement right there.

[Doc G]

I got it. I understand that completely. And I would also submit to you, for the last 25 years we've been told that the economy and there's obligations and Social Security is going to force more taxation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know this for a fact and I could probably, somebody can go back and fact check this. I don't know that tax rates have manifestly changed in the last 25 years that I've been doing this. Do you think that they have? I don't know. It doesn't seem like they have. They definitely ebb and flow and there's good, you know, depending on whose, you know, administration it is. But I don't know that we're sitting here with staring down the barrel of a 50% tax rate at some point in time because they've been saying it for 25 years. That doesn't mean it's not going to happen. But there's some reasons to do pre tax. For example, your FAFSA contributions. If you have to do a FAFSA pre tax, 401k contributions help you on the FAFSA. Roth 401k contributions do not. I don't know why, it seems pretty stupid to me, but maybe it's because.

[Joe Salsihai]

With the Roth you can get at that money. So they're saying, hey, this money's gettable.

[Doc G]

I mean, everything's Gettable, I suppose at some level, I just. Anyways, I think there's more to it between pre tax and Roth than that. And what I prefer to see is I prefer to see a pretty reasonable distribution between the three different buckets. Right. Pre tax money, after tax money and Roth money, tax free money. And the more you have in an evenly distributed bucket, the more that you can arbitrage that when it comes time to take that money out. See, the big play with pre tax and Roth is if I can pay taxes today. It's basically the timing of the taxation. Right. If I can say with a high degree of certainty that I'm going to be able to take this money and pay a lower tax rate in the future, or I'm going to pay a low tax rate today as opposed to the future, that's the gamble that you're making. But if you have some flexibility there, let's say that you have a bunch of money in pre tax, a bunch of money in Roth, and a bunch of money in after tax. Now, when it comes time for your distribution in retirement, you can play the game of going, oh, well, I'm going to take some of my money from this bucket at 12%. I'm going to guarantee that I'm getting the low tax rate on this versus trying to guess on what's going to happen. So given the opportunity, I'd probably diversify it to make sure that we've got some balance. But you'll be plenty wealthy with $10 million in your IRA and $10 million in your Roth. Nobody's going to complain about either of those things.

[Joe Salsihai]

The thing I like about that argument is the fact that I think a lot of people play this game, not really a game, but they think about this as if it's an either or discussion. It doesn't have to be either or. It can be. And Right. You look at the nature of improv and how improv is. Yes. And this and the fact that I think that you can do both surprises a lot of people. And this isn't just around IRA contributions, 401k contributions, TSP, whatever it might be. This is around a lot of financial decisions in life. The answer can be.

[Doc G]

And well, think about the person who's planning an earlier retirement, let's say in their mid-50s, and you're 45 today, and you're saying, well, isn't it better to put money in my 401 and just take it out of my paycheck? It's like, well, maybe for you it would be better to have a little bit more money after tax because you're going to need some flexibility in your distribution timing for the first eight, 10 years of retirement, or you're planning on taking Social Security at 70, not at 62 when you retire. And you're going to need eight years of living expenses. It's a very personal decision in terms of how you map it out. And the interesting thing about financial planning, of course, is that just because you did it right today, life's not going to be a straight line. There's going to be changes that happen in the next five or 10 years, whether it's tax rate changes or your personal situation or the economy or whatever. So it's an ongoing debate and change. We've changed our contributions in our life from pre tax to Roth and back and forth year after year, largely just to kind of keep that balance the way that I want it so that I've got the flexibility when it comes time for distribution. And for the first 20 years of my life, I didn't have an option for a 401k or Roth 401k. So it was like literally trying to play catch up. And now that we've kind of caught up again, now I'm just trying to balance it out because the employer matching contributions are traditional or pre tax. So you know what I mean? Like we change it year to year. And there's no right or wrong answer to any of this. If you save $70,000 a year in your, in your accounts, you know, if you're married and you can both participate in 401ks and HSAs and Roths, it's like it doesn't much matter where the money goes, as long as it's invested, you'll be fine.

[Joe Salsihai]

If you want to see the tax control triangle that OG is referencing and keeping some balance in the different types of accounts that you have, you'll find [e-mail] tax triangle. And we have that there, and it's free. So take advantage of that resource. If you're still a little confused about how that works, but it very much is once you grasp that we're looking at taking a bird in the hand today and giving yourself flexibility for the future is really what that tax control triangle is all about. More good news, by the way, for people with a 401K, a 403B, tsp, most of the 457 plans, most of the plans out there historically, last year in 2024 allowed you to put in $23,000. Those plans went up at the beginning of 2025. You can now put in 23,500. So, oh gee, to your point, you know, you just want to change your automatic investments. If you can afford to do that and put the max in, you've got an extra $500 this year. Now that's not the case though, for IRAs. IRAs were $7,000 last year and they stayed the same this year. Yeah. Why one went up and the other didn't. Oh, gee is beyond me. There's some calculation going on that might be above my pay grade.

[Doc G]

You think that somebody did some calculations on that? That's nice.

[Joe Salsihai]

Wait, you think they actually thought about it? Does that deserve a whoops. One of those?

[Doc G]

Right? Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

Head to our show notes and we'll have all of these numbers for you. StackingBenjamins.com, scroll down to the show notes for today's show and you will see all of the numbers. When it comes to this year's text brackets and saving opportunities, we'll have all those for you. And not only that, but wait, there's more. Og's firm has put together a list of all the changes, basically all the important tax information you need to know.

[Doc G]

OG yeah, we'll send this to anybody that's on the 201. So if you don't get the 201, sign up for it and we'll, we'll send it to everybody. But it's basically all the stuff that you're just talking about, Joe. The tax brackets, the standard deduction information, Social Security information, Medicare premiums and Irma surcharges and capital gains tax rates and RMD tables and catch up contribution. Like all of the data in terms of where are these numbers at? It's the 2025 Important Numbers PDF SO2 pager. We'll send it to you. Just sign up for 2.1. We'll send it in an email.

[Joe Salsihai]

We're going to send it on Friday. So if you're listening to this before Friday, sign up for the two. One stacking benjamin.com 201 for that special edition. And if you're listening to this after Friday, just send me an email joestackingbenjamins.com and I'll make sure that we get it to you as soon as you write to us. So happy to do that. Let's meander out onto the back porch because we've got a couple things here. Number one is the book club, which is a small group of people working through the lessons in my book stacked that a couple years ago CNN said was the number one personal finance book to read. These are a list of achievements where you're building your financial plan and you work with me and a small group of people over 10 weeks live 90 minute sessions to achieve your financial goals. Get your financial plan in order for 2025 at stackingbenjamins.com bookclub we call it the Book club because we're diving into the book. It's not for everybody. It is definitely a small group. By the way, the the number of testimonials received from the people that went through it last year. Just incredible. This is what people said that went through last year's book club. We've looked at different aspects of our finances for a long time, but never took a comprehensive view of things and made sure we had all our bases covered. Walking through this hysterically funny and informative book with the author himself was incredibly meaningful. The lessons were for us individually, we got coached directly and we had a support group to cheer us on. It was the best way to make a positive and lasting change. Can't recommend it enough, another person said. I was skeptical if this class would be helpful to me or not, but decided to give it a try. Turned out to be a great decision. I'm improving my budgeting skills, my mindset, but the best part was the part on investing. I think the changes I made will really be helpful down the road as I'm better diversified and have lowered my fees too, ready for whatever financial storms headed my way. Those are just a couple of them. It's stacky benjamins.com book club we're going to get going at the end of the month so sign up before all the places are gone. That's, I think, what I had. Doug, we got anything else in the back porch? I don't think we do this week.

[Doug Midler]

Yeah, actually Joe, we do. First of all, I got to say, under the errors and omissions section of our magazine, we've got to say that in our last episode we talked and thanked Nate Banner for pointing out the name of the sci fi movie called In Time. But since has been brought to our attention that 25 hours prior to Nate saying that in the basement, another great basement dweller Eric Lee, pointed out that if anyone's curious about the movie OG referenced, it's called In Time. And then he used AI he had to, you know, kick it up a notch. He used AI to summarize it. And it's a movie where people literally have a clock on their arm Counting down their lifespan and time is used as currency. Essentially, you can spend your remaining life to buy things.

[Joe Salsihai]

Nice job, Eric. We gave. We gave half credit there, Doug.

[Doug Midler]

Right, right.

[Joe Salsihai]

Not to Eric.

[Doug Midler]

So thanks, Eric, and apologies, you know, but we also had some great reviews. We have. I think one reviewer very likely plays for the Detroit Lions because his name is jmo J mo fo show. But I think it's pretty clear that's a star receiver.

[Joe Salsihai]

Probably. I bet we get lots of Detroit Lions professional people listening to the show.

[Doug Midler]

Yeah, I mean, in between all of the intense workouts that Dan Campbell is giving them, he apparently listens to us and he says stacking Benjamins gives the right amount of life and financial advice. Whilst he used the word whilst peppering in a fair and equitable amount of dad humor. I've been listening for six plus years and will continue to do so. I often refer to this podcast when chatting with others regarding financial decisions or for recommendations on movies, TV shows and books. Keep up the fine work.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Doug Midler]

Yeah, that was a good one. And so I appreciate that. Jmo, please put a lot of stickum on your hands, on your receiving gloves because these games coming up are pretty important, man.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, that game actually is already over. I'm sure we won, but.

[Doc G]

Well, you're right.

[Doug Midler]

There's the super bowl coming.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, good point. There are other games.

[Doug Midler]

Right. And so I was pretty pleased. You know, I like that he pointed out the dad humor because if you're new listening to us and you haven't, you've gotten to this part of the show and haven't realized it yet. We are your easy entree point into personal finance. This can be super intimidating topic. Right. And people don't want to talk about their personal finance or even start diving into it because it just. It. It. We've somehow been trained to think this is painful. And our goal here is to make the humor painful, not the personal finance with dad humor. So thanks for pointing that out, Jamo.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think we're as valuable, Doug, as. As waiters. I was thinking over the holidays just how valuable waiters are. Like at restaurants.

[Doug Midler]

Interesting.

[Doc G]

Oh, I was thinking about the. The stuff that you wear in the lake when you go fishing.

[Doug Midler]

When I'm fishing.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, yeah. Well, maybe. But I think restaurant waiters, I think they bring a lot to the table.

[Doug Midler]

Oh, for God's sakes. How did we walk right into that?

[Doc G]

I tried to get us out of it. Honestly. Do you see what I did there? I knew it was coming and I tried to Derail it. And I. I was like, guys, no, no, no. Don't do it.

[Doug Midler]

No, wait. Apply the brake.

[Joe Salsihai]

Is it time that we move on? Let's do the other reviews next week because we gotta go.

[Doug Midler]

Okay.

[Joe Salsihai]

Thank you so much, by the way, for your views. Thank you for the gift of your time. I know your time is valuable, and, yeah, we want to make sure you get all the good dad jokes like that one. All right, Doug, finish us off on a strong note. What should we have learned on today's epic Wednesday episode?

[Doug Midler]

Well, Joe, here's what we should have learned today. First, take some advice from Dr. Jordan Grummet. Looking for your big P purpose in life? Really relax. By focusing on little P purpose, you're much more likely to enjoy your life, make meaningful connections, and maybe find some big P purpose along the way. Second, tax brackets. Think about optimizing for flexibility in your plan not to squeeze every last cent out of the tax man's pocket this year. Future you will. Thank you. But the big lesson. Want a bigger, better 25? Come to Texarkana and buy your buddy Doug some Sizzler.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, God.

[Doug Midler]

That's probably. It's pro. I mean, this is just what all the experts are saying. It's probably take away. It's probably the gift that keeps on giving in. Think about it, really. I mean, it's got a good chance of becoming your big P, don't you think? Thanks to Doc G for stopping by. You'll find his book the Purpose Code, wherever books are sold. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2024, and is created by Joe Salsihai. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug Midler]

And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, gee. We can talk about gifts. Gifts you got the kids.

[Doc G]

So for I don't know how long we've been doing this, but for our kids, we've always had something. I don't want to say a gag, but some sort of, you know, whether it's the gift that they really wanted. That's just not under the tree. But it's in a back bedroom somewhere.

[Doug Midler]

Or parked in the driveway with a big red bow on it.

[Doc G]

Definitely not that ever.

[Joe Salsihai]

But how can you park a plane there, Doug?

[Doc G]

Hold on, hold on, hold on. I do have a funny joke coming for my son. So we've already set this up. So Alex, my oldest, is 17. He'll be 18. And then William is going to start driving. And so on William's birthday, I'm going to rent like a badass convertible and put a bow on it out front.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's horrible.

[Doug Midler]

Oh, that is awful.

[Doc G]

No, no. So hold on. No, no, let me be clear. William's in on it. So the 16 year old's in on it. This is against the 18 year old.

[Doug Midler]

Yeah, yeah, no, I get all of that.

[Joe Salsihai]

I didn't get that.

[Doug Midler]

It's still horrible parenting, dude.

[Joe Salsihai]

It is horrible.

[Doc G]

But it's gonna be awesome.

[Joe Salsihai]

But it's much more funny now.

[Doc G]

Yes, it double. It's the double reverse. Yes.

[Doug Midler]

Yeah. And little brother is. This is the best part of his year. Like there. You couldn't. It's a gift you're giving to William because just watching Meltdown, that will happen.

[Doc G]

We need it filmed in like 4K, you know, with 32 angles. So in light of that, we do just different things throughout the year like that and just have fun. And so this year, one of the gifts that my kids have gotten in the past is like a stack of lottery cards. I'll just go to the convenience store and buy five $1 tickets, two $2 tickets and a $5 ticket or whatever and just stuff them in their stocking. And so I did that, and it was pretty obvious that I was like literally out in the dining room ripping them up. But I also ordered from Amazon these. And you say you can buy lottery tickets from Amazon? Yes, sir, you can. Guaranteed winners. Guaranteed winners.

[Doug Midler]

Oh, guaranteed million dollar winners.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, my God.

[Doc G]

And the kids are all competitive.

[Doug Midler]

That's fantastic.

[Doc G]

Yeah. And it's a $20 one. So it's like, whoa, this is a $20 ticket. This is the big mammer jammer. You know, and the kids are all competitive. And we tried to figure out, Listen, I were talking about it, like, how are we gonna. How are we going? Like, hey, everybody, let's like. And I said, no, no, no. The best way is to just pay it no mind. Just let them take, you know, and then when they scratch them off, they scratch them off. Well, it kind of evolved into, hey, there's nothing else to do right this, like, let's do our lottery ticket. So it was perfect. All the kids were sitting at the table. So I get my phone out and I set it up perfectly at the spot, already set up that I was going to do. And they're all going through. Oh, I got a $1 winner. Oh, I got a $2 winner. Oh, I didn't win anything. And they're all looking at. They're. They're looking at each other's as they're scratching it off stuff. And Caroline notices. Wait, how come I don't have a $20 one? That's BS. And I was like, I can't do this to Caroline because I can't put her in on it. Because we've had her part of it too. Like one year, for example, she really wanted an iPhone. And the boys were like, you're not getting an iPhone until you're 12. You don't get phones till you're 12. So we got her an iPhone. We put it, like, put an old iPhone in a box, wrapped it up, and she's like, oh, my God, you got me a phone. And the kids were like. The boys were like, what is she sexy? Like, they were so mad. And, you know, so we just told her and we told her about it. She was in, but I could get her. I couldn't get her in on this. And it was a gamble because William has more emotion than Alex, you know, so if William would have got to his first, they both did him about the same time, but Alex figured it out first that he was a winner. William would have, like, it would have been YouTube quality, like, send into all the late night comedy shows. He would have been on tv. Alex's was so demure in his response, but he was like, exactly how you're supposed to win a lottery in front of everybody. You're supposed to be like, yeah, shut up. Like, I couldn't swing anything right now. Anyways, so we have this great video of the kids just scratching off their thing. And you can see Alex. He's just doing this. He, like, looks and I, you know, and I'm not paying attention. I put food in my mouth right at that moment. Just so that I always had, you know, it's something going on good, you know, so I couldn't, like, hold on. What? You know, and he's like losing his mind. He's like. He, like, comes up to me, he's like, dude, I want a million dollars. And I'm like, what? No. And he's like, this is right here. And I'm like, holy crap. And just as that was going on, William's like, what, did you win something? And he's scratching his off and he's like, this one says, win all, win all. 2000-003000-00100,000. And he's like, go crazy. And Alex's like, I want a million dollars. Well, he's like, wait, I want. Wait a second. Like, you could just see them all, all of it come together. And I said, well, what does it say on the back? Like, where do you. Because you got to claim your ticket, right? You know, like so. So this is what it looks like, this guy right here, you know, and.

[Doug Midler]

Yeah, we just sold about 5,000 of those.

[Doc G]

Oh, my gosh.

[Doug Midler]

It's so great, because I get.

[Doc G]

But you can't. You can't just hand it out, right? Because it's like, what's the point? You got to mix it in with something else. Some sort of. You got to have the big setup that goes with it. But it says these prizes are available in full wherever tickets are sold. In your dreams.

[Doug Midler]

In your dreams.

[Joe Salsihai]

Just in little tiny prints so nobody sees it.

[Doc G]

Oh, no. I mean, it's legit. Like, it looks just like the back of a lottery ticket would.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's great. The other one, I like that I saw on social media, guys. I like the ones where they take grandma and they wrap up stuff from her house and they take turns giving it to her.

[Doc G]

Oh, that would be cool.

[Joe Salsihai]

And then like the first one you all see in the video. Video, Grandma's like, oh, I've got one just like that. And then the second thing, she's like, that's a coincidence. And by the fourth one, she's like, I think somebody's stealing from me.

[Doc G]

That's. That would be good.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think next year we're gonna do that to mom. Yeah, I think that'll be great. I like it.

[Doc G]

So we like to do these little things along the way and have some fun. And that was that. That was a hoot. Quite the hoot for.

[Joe Salsihai]

I can't wait to see the car.

[Doc G]

Oh, dude, it's like I just. The meltdown of the eighteen year old who got the rust bucket, you know, three thousand dollar car for his sixteenth birthday versus, you know, and William's like, dude, make it like a Lambo or something. Like, no, no, it's got to be believable, like a Mustang convertible or something. You know, something that's doable financially and, you know, it can't be, you know, you're not gonna buy your kid a freaking Lamborghini.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's fantastic.

[Doc G]

Take him outside and be like, happy birthday, buddy. And just watch Alex's face melt. It'll be be freaking awesome.

[Joe Salsihai]

Doug, save the TV and movies for next week. Make sure you don't lose those, because we're going to hit that. I know I previewed that earlier, and I don't think we're going to get to it. So next week, guys, Doug's big movie and TV show reviews.