Hot Financial Takes: Are You In or Out? SB1719

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show – Episode "Hot Financial Takes: Are You In or Out? SB1719"

Release Date: August 8, 2025
Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy and Doug "Don" McDonald
Guest Panelists: Paula Pant, Jesse Kramer, Don McDonald
Special Feature: Jeff Lund's Birthday Celebration

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Introduction and Birthday Celebration

The episode kicks off with a lively and humorous celebration of Jeff Lund's birthday. Hosted by Joe Saul-Sehy and Doug "Don" McDonald, the hosts set a festive tone, blending playful banter with financial discussions. Doug humorously teases Jeff, setting the stage for a fun yet informative episode centered around Jeff's special day.

• Joe Saul-Sehy (00:31): "Your show has truly helped change my financial game... I wanted to say thank you for investing so much of yourself into helping people like me."

"Are You In or Out?" Financial Statements Game

The core segment of the episode revolves around the "Are You In or Out?" game, where panelists debate their stance on various controversial financial statements. This interactive format encourages deep dives into personal finance topics, making complex concepts accessible and engaging.

1. Cash-Only Lifestyle vs. Credit Cards

• Statement: "When you begin life on your own, you should live a cash-only lifestyle and stay away from credit cards."

  • Paula Pant (11:14): "I am out. I am a big believer in credit cards. You get consumer protections, you get rewards... if you use it functionally as a proxy for a debit card, you can."

  • Jesse Kramer (12:39): "I'm out now... a minority of people probably should have never touched a credit card to begin with."

  • Don McDonald (13:44): "I really truly believe that it is the majority of young people who have a very difficult time responsibly using a credit card."

  • Joe Saul-Sehy (14:44): "I think teaching your kids about credit, if you're going to give them credit cards, needs to be coupled with some education."

Discussion Highlights: The panelists debated the merits of using credit cards versus a cash-only approach for young adults starting their financial journey. Paula advocated for responsible credit card use due to its benefits, Jesse acknowledged that while many can handle credit cards responsibly, a minority may struggle. Don emphasized the tendency of young people to overspend with credit cards, advocating caution.

2. Delaying Home Purchase

• Statement: "You should delay buying a personal residence as long as possible when you're just starting out."

  • Jesse Kramer (16:46): "I am in... feel confident in the duration of time that you plan on living there."

  • Don McDonald (17:57): "I'm way in... buying a house has to be a lifestyle decision, not a financial one."

  • Paula Pant (19:14): "I am completely out. I say buy one right away. Make it a house hack."

Discussion Highlights: The conversation centered on the timing of purchasing a home. Jesse and Don recommended delaying home purchases to ensure long-term stability and financial confidence. In contrast, Paula encouraged buying early through strategies like house hacking to offset expenses and build equity.

3. Insurance Necessity

• Statement: "Don't insure anything. You have the money set aside to cover yourself."

  • Paula Pant (20:21): "I'm in. Insurance is best for low probability high magnitude events."

  • Don McDonald (22:23): "I'm in... especially health insurance due to the system's structure."

  • Jesse Kramer (23:29): "I am. I have a general emergency fund covering various risks."

  • Joe Saul-Sehy (24:17): "Insurance is logistically easier... write the check."

Discussion Highlights: The panelists discussed the role of insurance in personal finance. Paula and Don emphasized insurance for significant, low-probability events, particularly health insurance. Jesse highlighted the effectiveness of having a general emergency fund. Joe mentioned that for those further up the wealth ladder, writing checks for manageable expenses might be preferable to maintaining multiple sinking funds.

4. Hiring a CPA

• Statement: "Hiring a CPA is a waste of money for most people."

  • Jesse Kramer (26:30): "Out... for simple tax situations, find a cheap CPA initially."

  • Don McDonald (27:53): "In... most people don't need CPAs beyond the standard deduction."

  • Paula Pant (29:15): "Given most people, I'm in. But our audience should get a CPA."

Discussion Highlights: Panelists debated the necessity of hiring Certified Public Accountants (CPAs). Jesse and Don generally leaned towards being "in," suggesting that while most individuals might not need a CPA beyond basic tax filing, those with complex financial situations or higher income could benefit. Paula noted that while the general statement holds, their specific audience might find value in hiring a CPA.

Trivia Round: The Great Train Robbery

A lighthearted trivia segment was introduced, focusing on the Great Train Robbery that occurred on Jeff Lund's birthday in 1963.

• Question: How much money did the thieves steal in British pounds?

  • Don McDonald (34:04): "I think £2 million because it's probably more in dollars."

  • Jesse Kramer (35:07): "I'm going to say £15 million."

  • Paula Pant (36:19): "I'm going to take the over. £15.0001."

  • Correct Answer: £2.6 million (Equivalent to about $7 million)

Discussion Highlights: The trivia question sparked playful competition among panelists, with varying guesses reflecting their engagement and understanding of historical financial events. The correct amount stolen was revealed humorously, cementing Jeff's connection to the memorable event.

Second Half: More "In or Out?" Statements

The panel continued with additional financial statements, delving deeper into nuanced personal finance topics.

5. Target Date Funds (TDFs)

• Statement: "Target date funds are for people who don't want to take responsibility for their investments."

  • Don McDonald (42:52): "In. It's not about not wanting responsibility but delegating it responsibly."

  • Paula Pant (43:39): "I think they're a responsible way to delegate responsibility."

  • Jesse Kramer (43:57): "Out... TDFs are like the 'Hello Fresh' of investing—responsibly outsourcing."

Discussion Highlights: The panelists compared Target Date Funds to meal prep services, highlighting how TDFs allow investors to delegate investment decisions responsibly. While Don and Paula viewed TDFs positively as a way to manage investments without bearing all the decision-making burdens, Jesse emphasized the convenience and structured nature of TDFs, likening them to reliable meal delivery services.

6. Comprehensive Auto Coverage

• Statement: "If you drive an old car, skip comprehensive auto coverage. It's not worth it."

  • Paula Pant (45:36): "I'm in... unless an accident would be financially devastating."

  • Don McDonald (46:08): "In, unless you own a rare antique Ferrari."

  • Jesse Kramer (46:36): "In... required if financing or leasing a vehicle."

Discussion Highlights: The debate focused on the necessity of comprehensive auto insurance based on the vehicle's age and value. Paula and Don supported skipping comprehensive coverage for older, non-valuable cars to save money, while Jesse pointed out that comprehensive coverage might still be necessary if the vehicle is financed or leased.

7. Contributing to a Traditional 401(k)

• Statement: "You should never contribute to a traditional 401(k) if your tax brackets are under 22%."

  • Jesse Kramer (47:09): "Out... consider future tax brackets and retirement planning."

  • Paula Pant (48:14): "Out, but prefer Roths unless there's a compelling reason otherwise."

  • Don McDonald (48:43): "In... prefer Roths but default to traditional if unsure."

Discussion Highlights: The panelists analyzed the decision between traditional and Roth 401(k) contributions based on current and projected tax brackets. Jesse and Paula generally opposed the statement, advocating for contributions based on individual circumstances and future expectations. Don leaned towards traditional contributions if uncertain about future tax rates, highlighting a preference for Roth accounts when possible.

8. Having a Will by Age 30

• Statement: "If you don't have a will by age 30, you're being reckless."

  • Paula Pant (50:12): "In with that statement... but I currently don't have a will."

  • Don McDonald (50:37): "Out... many 30-year-olds have minimal assets requiring a will."

  • Jesse Kramer (51:07): "Out... unless you have dependent children or significant assets."

Discussion Highlights: The necessity of having a will by a certain age was debated. Paula agreed with the statement but admitted her current lack of a will, while Don and Jesse contended that for many young adults, especially those with limited assets or dependents, it may not be an immediate necessity. They emphasized alternative measures like beneficiary designations and simple estate planning for those with minimal assets.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode drew to a close, the hosts and panelists reflected on the discussions, highlighting the importance of personalized financial strategies and informed decision-making. They encouraged listeners to consider their unique circumstances when evaluating financial advice and emphasized continuous learning and adaptation.

• Joe Saul-Sehy (56:35): "This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor."

Key Takeaways:

1. Personal Finance is Nuanced: Financial decisions should be tailored to individual circumstances, considering factors like income, expenses, future plans, and risk tolerance.

2. Credit Cards Can Be Beneficial: When used responsibly, credit cards offer rewards and protections, but caution is necessary to avoid debt accumulation.

3. Home Buying Timing Matters: Delaying home purchases can provide financial stability and confidence, though early investments through house hacking can be advantageous.

4. Insurance is Essential for Major Risks: Insurance should cover significant, low-probability events, particularly health-related expenses.

5. Professional Financial Advice Depending on Complexity: Hiring a CPA or financial advisor depends on the complexity of one's financial situation.

6. Estate Planning Should Align with Assets: The necessity of a will varies based on asset levels and dependents, with simpler alternatives available for those with minimal estate considerations.

Notable Quotes:

• Paula Pant (11:14): "I get consumer protections, you get rewards... you can use it like a debit card."

• Don McDonald (13:44): "I really truly believe that it is the majority of young people who have a very difficult time responsibly using a credit card."

• Jesse Kramer (16:46): "Feel confident in the duration of time that you plan on living there."

• Paula Pant (19:14): "Make it a house hack."

• Don McDonald (22:23): "Insurance prices here in some coastal areas run five figures and up a year."

• Jesse Kramer (26:30): "If you're someone in a simple tax situation, try to find a pretty cheap CPA at first."

• Paula Pant (29:15): "The majority of people who listen to Stacking Benjamins should get a CPA."

• Don McDonald (43:06): "I'm in. Because, I mean, it's not. You don't want to work hard on it, then do a TDF."

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Final Note: This episode of The Stacking Benjamins Show offers a blend of humor, personal stories, and insightful financial discussions, making complex financial topics approachable and engaging for listeners at all stages of their financial journey.

Transcript

[Joe Saul Sehi]

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[Joe Saul Sehi]

Hey, guys, mail's here and there's some for us.

[Doug]

Oh, man, I love mail. Who's it from? Wait, wait, wait. It's not from my probation officer again, is it?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, let's see. It's from Stacker Kelsey. All right, here's what Kelsey says. Hey, Joe and OG and Doug, of course. Your show has truly helped change my financial game, and I wanted to say thank you for investing so much of yourself into helping people like me. Isn't that nice?

[Doug]

Oh, well, keep. Keep going. She probably mentions me again, I'm sure.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, I don't know. But she says the person who introduced me to your show is my dad, and he has a birthday coming up today, August 8th. He's an avid listener, and I'm wondering if there's any way you'd be able to shout him out on your show. My dad's always been there for me, and when I was really underwater with student loans, credit card debt, and all the other bills that come with living, my dad sat down with me and helped me plan my finances so I could pay off debts one by one and not be so paycheck to paycheck. He would also send me episodes of your show that he knew would help or would be inspiring, like how to structure an emergency fund. Again, I appreciate all that you do to help people like me. And if there's any chance of a small shout out for my dad, I know he'd be over the moon. Thank you again for all your help, Doug. I think we can do maybe slightly better than that. What do you think?

[Doug]

I. I think I see where you're headed with this, Joe. Let's do it.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

All right, round table. You guys ready? Let's do this, Doug.

[Doug]

All right, we're going live.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah.

[Doug]

All right. Three, two, one. Wait, who's. Whose birthday is. It was Jeff Lund. Jeff Lund? Really? You mean that guy's still alive? I'm pretty sure I saw him shopping for caskets at Costco the other day. He's only 54. Huh. Wow, he doesn't look a day over 90. All right, then, let's celebrate. Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and on this special, Jeff Lund's birthday episode of Stacking Benjamins, it's time to ask our panel, are you in or are you out on some of personal finance's most controversial topics? We'll cover insurance to investing and estate planning to home purchases. On today's show, I think I'm out on this idea of Jeff having yet another birthday. Seriously, haven't you had enough already, man? But hey, I guess everyone deserves to nearly burn a house down with a bajillion candles. Just call the fire department before the cake arrives, Jeff. But that's not all. You know how we truly celebrate Jeff's birthday? We dive into our year long trivia challenge. I know, Jeff. We do that every Friday. Just sit over there in the corner with your funny little hat and pipe down, would ya? And now a guy who remembers 54 like it was three decades ago. Here comes Jo Sal CI.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Doug. This is supposed to be Jeff's episode. Now make fun of Joe episode. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Jeff's special birthday episode of the Stacky Benjamin show. I am Joe Saul Sehi. And man, do we have a great, great show for you today. I love that we did this earlier this spring and it was so much fun. We brought this concept back for another episode and we have three of the perfect people to enjoy the special episode we call in or out. What's going to happen is I'm going to say a phrase, a financial phrase that might be a little controversial. And all our roundtable has to do is debate whether they're in or out when it comes to that particular concept. The first half we'll do some basic ones, then we'll for all you really nerdy money people, we'll dive into those in the second half of today's show. But let's welcome our contestants here. First let's go to the woman who is high above Manhattan. She can do traffic and weather in Manhattan on the 8th. How is the traffic look in Manhattan today? Paula Pant.

[Paula Pant]

You know, the bus was crowded. The subway was less crowded.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It's done with the sound effects.

[Paula Pant]

I don't know about the actual highway traffic because I don't experience that. But I. But the bus was crowded today.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

And that's traffic and weather from the Paula Pant. And in Rochester, New York, we go to the man on the scene there from personal finance for long term investors. Jesse Kramer's here. What's going on in Rochester, my friend?

[Jesse Kramer]

You know, things are good up here. It's very hot. We've had a very warm stretch of weather question. Are we working with Jeff with a J today or Jeff with a G.E.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

What? Do you remember Naper Gatsby on playing George Washington when he's like, there's two ways to spell Jeff. The regular way and the stupid way.

[Doug]

We're playing with the regular Jeff today.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

The regular Jeff Kramer. Yes. But I don't know, Jesse. I heard Jeff is so foo foo though that he could be the special.

[Jesse Kramer]

You know, the G. It makes a big difference, I think. You know, I'm, I was talking to Don and Paula Offline and we were kind of talking about what, what we were going to bring to the table today. And that was one of the big kind of differentiators, one of the forks in the road that determined which way we take this episode was which kind of Jeff we were dealing with.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Jesse Kramer. Jeff with a G. Are you in or are you out? And there goes all the Jeff with the GS. And let's head down Celebration, Florida, because the guy that we celebrate every time he comes back on the show, the man with the golden voice, the guy behind Talking Real Money, our great friend Don joins us. What's up, man?

[Don McDonald]

Well, I can't tell you how Jeffed I am to be here. I am Jeffed up. I am just Jeffin. So Jeffin, happy to be back. I just want to Jeff up and down. Dang it.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, my.

[Don McDonald]

Don't let me get Jeffed up, please, because you know, I can get a little Jeffy here. Thank you for this opportunity to share my inner Jeffing.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It is a big day, Don. Hey, speaking of big days, it's always a big day when a new episode of Talking Real Money comes out. For the people that haven't heard your frequent appearances here, what goes on at Talking Real Money, my friend?

[Don McDonald]

Oh, my gosh. Today's episode was really unique. I put up an episode last when we did this a week ago Monday. I don't remember when it was was a day or two where literally I did the whole episode with chat GPT and, and we talked about jobs and what in the heck you can do as she's going to take them all away from you.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

No, no, no, Don. What we described on Stacky Benjamin is she's not going to take them. The people that understand her are going to take them.

[Don McDonald]

Right. And that's kind of what we talked about, how you can be one of the people who understands her before you're one of the people who is unemployed because of her or is maybe Jeff.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, it's coming. Well, we got a great topic coming today. A big, big show. We're gonna cross all the different areas of financial planning on today's show. So sit back and relax and ask yourself if you're in or out on these. We're gonna get to that in just a second. But first we have a couple sponsors that help us keep on keeping on. And you're not gonna pay a dime for any of this goodness. So we're gonna hear from them. And then Paula, Jesse, Don, Doug and I celebrating Jeff's birthday. Figuring out if you are in or out on some of life's biggest financial conundrums. Remember the days of you've got Mail? Well, maybe not. Maybe you're younger than that. But there used to be a day where you would turn on your computer, you go get a cup of coffee, and then you'd hear all this scratching and screeching and then this voice would go, you've got mail. That was before the Internet ruled our lives. And during that time, AOL brought America Online with email and Instant messenger. By 2000, AOL was so powerful, it set aside on media giant Time Warner. The deal was supposed to bring us into the future, but instead it became one of the messiest corporate disasters on record. But what went wrong? Was it culture clashes, the dot com crash, or something deeper? Business wars gives you a front row seat to the biggest moments of business and how they shape our world. Because when your flight perks disappear, your favorite restaurant chain goes bankrupt, or new design reshapes everything overnight, there's always a deeper story behind the headlines. Follow Business wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can binge all episodes of Business wars, the AOL Time Warner disaster, early and ad free right now on Wonder Plus Small business Owners. State Farm's there with small Business Insurance to fit your specific needs. Whether you're starting a new venture or growing an existing one, State Farm helps you choose the right coverage to protect what matters most. Working with a local state farm agent helps you understand your coverage options. Offering local support to help you achieve your goals. Focus on turning your passion into a thriving business. Knowing your insurance can change as your business grows. Stay Farm here to help you succeed with your business. Like a good neighbor. Stay Farm is there. All right, guys, let's start this birthday party. Paula, let's start with you and let's start with beginning stackers. You know, Kelsey was talking about how her dad helped her so much, but let's say that you get to help the stackers instead. So let's say you're helping a brand new stacker. Are you in or out? Paula, pant on this statement. When you begin life on your own, you should live a cash only lifestyle and stay away from credit cards. Paula, are you in or out?

[Paula Pant]

I am out.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, wow. How come?

[Paula Pant]

I am a big believer in credit cards. You get consumer protections, you get rewards. If you use it functionally as a proxy for a debit card, you can. Jesse's losing it right now.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Trying hard for people. Not with us on YouTube. Gonna say hello to Paul on YouTube. I'm not sure who else is here with us, all those cats in her lap, but we do. We have a friend who is playing with us today.

[Paula Pant]

This is Azra.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yes, Azra is hugging the camera today.

[Paula Pant]

All right. Yeah, Azra will stand in for me. So you get consumer protections, right? If you buy something and you later have a dispute with a merchant, you can use a credit card to file a merchant dispute. You get rewards based on your credit card. You can get airline miles. You can get cash back. And if you use it like a proxy for a debit card and even pay it off every week, couple times a week even, you get all of that without any risk of running it over. Running it over.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Jesse. I remember. I remember in, in Suze Orman's first book, one of my favorite Suze Orman's lines is you need to learn respect for the dollar. Like, you need to just learn about cash. And when Paula says if you use it like a debit card, but that's a big if. I mean, we're talking about credit. So, Jesse, are you in or out?

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm going to say out now. What you just pointed out there, Joe, and I think this is in honor of Azra. If you guys remember the movie anchorman, remember Sex Panther, like Azra, a big sex panther. 60% of the time. It works every time. And I think there's percentage there where it's for credit card users, it's like, you know, I don't know. 80% of credit card users can use a credit card responsibly from day one. And it's perfectly fine for them to be using credit cards as part of their kind of day to day finances. But then there's that minority. I think my gut feel is it is. It's a minority of people who for them, they probably should have never touched a credit card to begin with. And for them a cash only system from the start would have been better. My gut instinct is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and to say that it's okay to start with credit cards kind of in your day to day finances from the start. And if you trip up a couple times, hopefully you learn from your mistakes and improve moving forward.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I don't know. Is that a minority of people? Because Don, it took me 10 years. Yeah, yeah, it took me 10 years. So are you in or out on this one, Don?

[Don McDonald]

I'm more of an. Or can I have the third choice or.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh no, you got to.

[Don McDonald]

Then I'm going to cop out. I'm a cop out. I really, truly believe that it is the majority of young people who have a very difficult time responsibly using a credit card. And by the way, it shouldn't be credit cards plural. If you're going to use one, it should just be one. It's complicated enough and it should be the one that gives you the most bang for no buck, the most points or whatever you're getting for it. But the fact of the matter is I really truly believe, and this is from having done a financial show now going on 40 years, most people are going to run that up because it's just too easy to do it. It feels like play. So if you can use it responsibly, then I'm in with Paula. But I don't believe that most folks in their 20s at least have in the past been able to effectively use credit as a very powerful and again as Paula alluded to protected tool.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, and Robin hanging out with us in the comments says totally agree with Paula. Credit cards aren't bad if you use them responsibly. So Jesse, when your young one, I know we're a little ways away from this, right? But how are you going to teach them how to use credit cards responsibly? Because I think that's that's really what parents, you know, need to do if they're going to use credit cards.

[Jesse Kramer]

I think in a recent show, we all sat here and talked about that fact that credit cards are real money. There's no sort of magic money. There's no sort of fake money. There's no sort of. You're getting access to money that you don't have to pay back. Like, no, no, it is real money. It is your money. And if your brain can't quite comprehend that fact, you need to somehow train yourself to really internalize the idea that it's real money, and you need to pay it off at the end of every month. There's nothing magical going on there. When I think of our one year old, and I think myself five, six years from now, when we give her a $10,000 credit limit, that's going to be the big lesson that we try to impart on her. Like, hey, you're in second grade. You've got a lot of things going on. Use this responsibly, you know, So I.

[Don McDonald]

Think you can't have a cell phone yet, but damn it, you can have a credit card.

[Jesse Kramer]

Absolutely.

[Doug]

Just good parenting, right?

[Jesse Kramer]

We're trying to get on Visa's good side here. I just think to myself, just the last thing I'll say is I was talking to Jeff Offline and he was saying that's when he started his kids. 7, 8, 9 years old. So I'm following in Jeff's footsteps.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It's all Jeff. I think Jeff is doing it right. I do think teaching your kids about credit, if you're going to give them credit cards, I think it needs to be coupled with some education because, you know, and my parents, you know, I don't want to shave my parents. I go, damn my parents to give me the education. No parents give that education. I think. I think it's. It's more of systemic than. Than Joe's mom and dad. Let's do another one. Let's stick with you, Jesse. Starting out again, let's go back to the stacker. Starting out, are you in or out? On this statement, you should delay buying a personal residence as long as possible when you're just starting out. Are you in or are you out?

[Jesse Kramer]

I am in on the way that you phrase that, Joe. I am in. Because one of the fundamental questions that I tell people they need to ask themselves when they're determining whether to buy a primary residence is you have to feel really confident in the duration of time that you plan on living there. The Trap that some people can fall into is like, oh, I, you know, I just finished grad school and I just got a job out in Denver and I've been here a couple years and I don't know what else to do. So I'm gonna go buy a house now in suburban Denver. And if you ask them like, oh, so are you going to be here like potentially for the rest of your life? Are you going to be here for the next 15, 20 years? They'll be like, I don't know, I just didn't want to rent anymore. And that I think is a problem. You know, if you look at the rent versus buy calculators, amongst other math, one of the fundamental numbers inputs that goes into that function is how long will you live in the residence? So to that end, for someone to delay as long as possible so that they really feel confident how long they plan on living there, I think is a smart thing to do.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It is hard to know how long you're going to live in a place. And yet, Don, we hear all the time renting is throwing money away. We hear that. So, Don, you should delay buying a primary residence as long as possible. When you're first starting out, are you in or out?

[Don McDonald]

I'm with Jesse. I am way in, way in. Because I think the math is misleading and I also think that there's a giant lobby that is pushing the whole idea of homeownership. The real estate lobby, the national association of Realtors. Jesse's right. The math does not work out as well as it appears to. And it's an illusion that you make a lot of money on real estate. The only reason people make a lot of money on real estate is because it's so highly leveraged. But what they forget on the opposite side of that coin is the potential for big losses in a leveraged. In a highly leveraged situation, buying a house has to be a lifestyle decision, not a financial one. And for most people just starting out, committing to that kind of long term cost is probably a mistake when renting. Actually in many markets. Most markets I would hazard is a better financial scenario.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, it's so interesting. Just the difference between personal real estate and investment real estate. Just, you know, I chose this house not because it's a great investment, because it's, it's a place I'm going to be long, long, long term. And I, yeah, don't even think about it as an investment decision. Paula, you should delay buying a primary residence when you first start out as long as possible. Are you in or out?

[Paula Pant]

I am completely out. But I've got a caveat.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You're out. You think you should buy one right now?

[Paula Pant]

Yes, I say buy one right away.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Buy a primary residence right away.

[Paula Pant]

Buy a primary residence right away. Make it a house hack.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, house hack.

[Paula Pant]

A primary residence right away. House hacking, for people who are not familiar with that term, means that you rent out a portion of the house and by virtue of doing so you offset part or all of your out of pocket expenses. In an ideal scenario, this means that you're buying a duplex, a triplex, a fourplex. You can get a primary residence mortgage for anything that's four or fewer units because anything for fewer units counts as residential. So get a duplex, triplex, fourplex, live in one of the units, rent out the others. If you can't do that, if you're in an area where multi unit properties are not available, you can. Other kind of variations of house hacking include getting a single family home that has an in law suite, a casita, a guest house, a detached garage that can be used as a separate domicile. I would actually recommend you live in the smaller of the two. Live in the less nice portion of the two, rent out the nicer portion of the two. That'll probably cover all of your out of pocket expenses, you know, at least most of it.

[Doug]

Did you say there are some that come with placentas? What was that?

[Paula Pant]

Casita, Casita.

[Doug]

Casita. I totally could not understand.

[Don McDonald]

Holy shower off. You'll hear better.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Wow, that went a different direction than I thought it was.

[Doug]

Sure, that's what she said. Pretty sure.

[Paula Pant]

He's taking the concept of a birthday way too far.

[Doug]

Well done.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

This is, I'm. This is actually my. Moving on. Yes, I'm out. Even Jeff's out on that one. I love all your answers. This is what I love about this topic, is there are so many different facets to examine and some carefully weeded answers there. Let's do one more. Paula, let's stick with you. Are you in or out on this one? Don't ensure anything. You have the money set aside to cover yourself.

[Paula Pant]

I'm in. I'm totally in.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You're in on that one?

[Paula Pant]

I'm in on that one. Insurance, I think is, is best for low probability high magnitude events. If there is something that would be so treacherous that it would really hamper you, like health, for example. You know, it's. Unfortunately, even minor sicknesses or injuries could end up being hundreds of thousands of dollars or even millions of dollars. And so Your health is something that you want to ensure because of the fact that there is. Once you go to the hospital, it's pretty much a blank check. By contrast, a piece of jewelry that's, I don't know, $2,000 or $5,000. Even if you have enough money to buy that, you probably have enough twice over that if you were to lose it, if something were to happen, you could cover it out of pocket.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Interesting. Don't ensure anything. You have the money set aside to cover yourself. You in or out?

[Don McDonald]

I'm in. And again, I'm in with a qualifier. And the same. Basically the same kind of qualifier you have to insure your health in this country because of the way the system is structured. The system is structured in such a way that if you are uninsured, not only do you pay more, you pay a higher price than the insurance company pays, often by a factor of 10 or 20 or even 100, because they're.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Getting a big discount.

[Don McDonald]

They're getting a big discount. So this is a. The medical insurance system in this country is such a mess, but we can't fix that here. And the other qualifier is, unless you must have that insurance, and that applies to a car on which you have a loan, a house on which you have a mortgage. You got to have insurance on those. But in Florida here, we've got a lot of folks who are just going naked on insurance if their house is paid for, because insurance prices here in some coastal areas run five figures and up a year.

[Doug]

Man, I want to live in that neighborhood.

[Don McDonald]

It's on the beach. Beautiful view.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Jesse, you in or out?

[Jesse Kramer]

I am. If I'm remembering that the way you phrase it, I am in.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Okay.

[Jesse Kramer]

And the way I think about it is, yeah, there are some risks in life that currently I have cash on hand to cover, so I don't need to insure myself against them. But I don't have separate buckets of cash for each risk, if that makes sense. Some of my cash, it's kind of like this general risk bucket that. Yeah, it might go to the dog if the dog needs emergency surgery, because that's something. I don't have pet insurance. I'm trying to think of something else that I don't have that's insured. Nothing's really coming to mind. But the whole point is, rather than having, like, dog dollars and dollars for this risk over here and dollars for that risk over there, I have one general emergency fund that I consider a cash coverage for things that I don't have insurance for.

[Don McDonald]

And to add, I want to make a point that I think is missed in the insurance business, and I think the insurance industry wants us to miss it. And that is the fact that when you have insurance, what you're in essence doing, except with health insurance, you're just buying a better rate, is you're gambling with the insurance company, you're making a bet with them, they're making a bet with you, and they have more knowledge when it comes to how likely they are to pay on that bet than you do. So they're the house, you're the gambler. Most of the time, you're going to lose that bet.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I agree with everything all of you said, but I'm actually out on this one. During my time in financial planning, what I noticed was, and this has to do with, you know, Nick Bojiuli's appearance here a couple weeks ago when I found people. And this astounded me at first, and it doesn't anymore when I found people far enough up the wealth ladder that it was, I can cover this and just not mess with it. Really. I can write a check to an insurance company so I don't have to f with it or I take this risk myself. Forget it. Write the check. I would much rather write the check than mess with it. So I think that when it comes to, like, solid dollars and cents, you guys are all right. But when you get to the point that it's a trivial number, you know, where do I really want to spend all this time on this thing versus just hand it over to the insurance company? I saw people do it, and I didn't blame them. I was like, oh, yeah, looking at your life, just write the check. So really, really interesting.

[Jesse Kramer]

You're saying insurance is just logistically easier for them. They would rather carry insurance than then deal with the costs when an event happens.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

A hundred percent. Got it. Got it.

[Jesse Kramer]

Okay.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

And not have all these little sinking funds sitting around to remember, okay, I got this for this, I get this for this, I get that. Forget it. I'm just gonna write a check. But you got to be a ways up the wealth ladder. I think we went from Jesse talking about people starting out right. I think if I'm starting out, the rule to learn is what all you guys said. I think when you get to the far side of it, though, there's a whole different set of rules that we play by. Speaking of that, let me ask you this one, Jesse, how about this? Are you in or out? Hiring a CPA is a waste of money for most people out I'm out.

[Jesse Kramer]

I know enough to know that CPAs come with different price tags. Here in Rochester, I can tell you that you can get a pretty simple tax return done by a CPA for like 250 or 300 bucks, all the way up to like 1100, 1500 bucks. And if you're in a really simple tax situation, I mean, the two CPAs aren't going to do any different work. It's just those are the rates they charge. So first off, if you're someone in a simple tax situation, try to find a pretty cheap CPA at first. What I would say is maybe for a couple years, that CPA might know a few things about your deductions, about what's going on in your life that you aren't aware of, and they might be able to save you some money. That's what happened with me. My CPA paid for himself pretty quickly. But then if your simple tax situation carries on into the future and you kind of see how they prepare your tax return, you start to understand the puts and the takes. You can always take it back and say, okay, I think I understand this now. I understand the credits and the deduction of what's going on, and I am going to start doing this myself. I don't plan on never taking it back myself because it saves me time. My CPA is aware of new regulations. You know, Oba, this big, beautiful bill. BBBBB. However many Bs there are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the triple B. I like having a CPA who pays attention to that stuff more than I have the time to.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Don, you in or out? CPAs are a waste of money for most people.

[Don McDonald]

Aha. See, it's the qualifier again. It's always in the qualifier. A waste of time and money for most people. I'm in because we're talking about most people. The vast majority of people in the United States of America have no opportunity, and they never will, to take anything more than the standard deduction when they do their taxes. And there are no other accounting services that they need in their life. None whatsoever. And I know I'm going to make accountants mad, but one of the industries that is going to be the most rapidly commoditized in the United States and taken over by AI is accounting Man.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I don't think so. I think that personal touch matters so much. But I also agree with you, Don. I'm actually also in on this one. However, I think that when you get to the point that you need one, not having one can screw you so quickly again.

[Don McDonald]

The word that qualifier was most people. Yeah, somebody in a high bracket, somebody with a very complex portfolio with state issues, all those things. That's when you start needing an accountant who knows all of the intricacies of the tax law.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

We got a lot of stackers hanging out with us right now. Shane, I love my cpa. Eddie, hiring a CPA is necessary. Paul, I'm a CPA and I have a CPA case ans I love my cpa. Paula, hiring a CPA is a waste of money for most people. In or out.

[Paula Pant]

Given that the statement is most people, I'm in. But I think that the majority of this audience, the majority of people who are listening to Stacking Benjamins should get a cpa. That's because the profile of people who listen to Stacking Benjamin's is not reflective of the majority of people.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, I think to your point, Paula, most, most CPAs would tell you that they don't want to have their time wasted with people. Don, to your point, taking the standard deduction.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. One of my tenants is a single guy who works at. He's like a line cook at like a Buffalo Wild Wings. What would he need a CPA for? Yeah, you know.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yep, agreed.

[Paula Pant]

Single dude, renter, works a restaurant job. Unless there's something that I don't know about, I don't see any reason why he would need a CPA.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

We've got a healthy discussion going on here on YouTube. If you want to join us on YouTube, we're here now. Monday afternoons. We changed the day. So come join us at 3:30 Eastern Time. Ish. Paul and I were talking this morning how we love the word ish or the qualifier ish on Mondays. So come join us and say hi. We're going to. In the second half of this discussion, we're going to get really nerdy money nerds. We're going to talk about target day funds. We're going to talk about tax brackets. We've got some nerdier questions for our crew here. But at the halfway point and to celebrate Jeff's birthday, we are pausing for our trivia competition which is year long. And well, even before we knew it was Jeff's birthday, we had a score because we're. Well, we're in the third quarter of the year and Doug, it's starting to look like it might be a race again. What's our score between our competitors?

[Doug]

Well, for a couple of them, yes, we're getting into a race. Don't worry. Paul is still basically in Brazil. She's so Far over the horizon. She can't even see her in the rearview mirror.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

She's a Brazilian points behind.

[Doug]

Yes, she is a Brazilian points behind. Jesse has started to put his foot down on the accelerator a little bit. He has eight and a half points, which is just one and a half points behind OG who has 10.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Don, you're playing on behalf of OG today, which is good news.

[Don McDonald]

So Jesse's going to totally catch up.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Because you're playing on behalf of our leader. Don, you're going to be guessing first, but you also are the leader, so. Yeah, no pressure.

[Don McDonald]

No pressure. Other than lots.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

All right, Doug, bring it. Everybody needs a trivia question. What are we doing here?

[Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and today we're featuring the Great Birthday Robbery. Seriously, who said that Jeff could steal an entire episode? Wait, does he have something on Joe's mom? I smell blackmail down here or something. But it turns out Jeff shares his birthday with a ton of other celebs. For one, it's also the birthday of U2 guitarist the Edge, who can jam birthday songs for Jeff all day long. I'm sure. Sure. It's. Let's see here. It's also. Oh, it's also the actor John Holmes's birthday. That's weird. I wonder why they put actor in quotes. I mean, John Holmes, he's super talented guy, right? So I guess he and Jeff have two things in common.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

No.

[Doug]

I mean, that's the word on the street. But here's one. Since Jeff's pretty much hijacked this show, let's focus on another robbery. This one was called the Great Train Robbery and happened on today's date way back in 1963. The thieves were probably thinking ahead stealing a ton of cash, you know, so they could afford all the candles for Jeff's birthday cake. These armed bandits raided a train in Great Britain and stole a bunch of money. I mean, a bunch of money.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, how much Was.

[Doug]

Was so much that it would nearly fund Jeff's long term care for a couple of weeks. I mean, it was. It was a ton of money.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

How much was it?

[Doug]

Okay, now you're picking up what I'm laying down. It was so much. When Jeff heard the number, his dentures nearly fell out again. We just got him glued back in after last year's inflation report. But more than any of that, it was the most money anyone ever stole during a train robbery. So your mission today, panelists. How much money did they steal in British pounds? I'll be Back right after I finish up this birthday card to Jeff. Hey, Paula. Asking for a friend. How do you spell reprobate?

[Don McDonald]

Careful, Paula, careful.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Night stackers. Don, you're going first. Yeah, We've got Jeff's. Not just Jeff's birthday, but the Great Train Robbery. How much money in 1963? Pounds.

[Don McDonald]

Pounds.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Did they.

[Don McDonald]

I don't. I don't have to do the conversion to dollars.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

No conversion today.

[Don McDonald]

When it was the 1960s. I mean, I know of it. It was like a very famous thing. I'm old, so I know about old things, but I was only nine years old back then, so I did. I think there was a movie or something too, right?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, I think there was.

[Don McDonald]

There was a movie. And for some reason, you know, I was going to say like 10 million, but I think since it was 63, it's got to be less than that. So I'm going to go like 2, 3, 4. 2, 3. I'm going to go 2 million. I'm going to go £2 million because it's probably more in dollars.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

£2 million British pounds.

[Don McDonald]

I'm just guessing. OG. I'm sorry, Jesse, what do you think?

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm going to go higher. I'm also going to ignore what Eddie wrote in the chat because I'm, you know, Eddie's. Eddie's got Google out there. But I think Eddie's just throwing a wild guess.

[Don McDonald]

Oh, what? Wait a minute. Oh, there's guesses in the chat. Don't look.

[Doug]

Not cool.

[Don McDonald]

All right, I got to change mine now.

[Doug]

No, you're not allowed to, Don, because.

[Don McDonald]

I'm looking at the chat.

[Doug]

You're out.

[Jesse Kramer]

My thought was, you know, thinking about just the rate of inflation. It was 60 years ago. 62 years ago, and that, like. Okay, I'm thinking about how often based on a rule of 72, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's probably like money was probably worth like 10 times less then. And so I was thinking to myself, well, if $100 million, 100, $200 million would be a lot today. Let me divide that by 10, 10 or $20 million today. So I'm going to say 15 million.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

$15 million.

[Jesse Kramer]

I'll go with pounds. I'll go with pounds.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

£50 million.

[Don McDonald]

Oh, we have to do the conversion. Yeah. Hold on.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yes. £15 million. Paula, you got 2 million and 15 million.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, geez. Okay, so my. I could take. I could take the under. I could split the middle or I could take the over gambler. I know, right?

[Don McDonald]

You're, like, good at this.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I love how Paula lays out all the obvious things. I can either go under in the middle or above Don.

[Don McDonald]

Yeah, but she said it in gambling terms.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

She did.

[Paula Pant]

I'm tempted to split the middle, but only because there's been price anchoring. I'm gonna just take the over. I'm gonna take the over. 15.0001 pounds.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

All right. And we are locked and loaded. Don's got 2 million. Jesse with 15, Paula with 15.0001. Who's gonna win it? We'll be right back and find out. This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal can help you find and finance the right vehicle with ease in this summer you're in the driver's seat with savings. You could get a 250 bonus when you buy your next car through Navy Federal's car buying service. Powered by TrueCar and Finance with Navy Federal. With this tool you can find the vehicle that's right for you as you search through inventory and compare models. And you could get an amazing rate when you finance with Navy Federal. Navy Federal strives to support all active duty veterans and their families to achieve their personal and financial goals and this partnership with TrueCar is one of the many tools Navy Federal uses to help its members. Make your plan with Navy Federal and TrueCar. Today Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission to Qualify for the $250 bonus, car purchase and financing must be completed by September 2, 2025. Terms and conditions apply and are available at Navy Federal.org TrueCar Credit & Collateral subject to approval. Navy Federal is insured by ncua.

[G]

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[Joe Saul Sehi]

I'm currently taking a course on Ido U Ideo University about AI and creativity and different ways to build AI into your process management system. And it is so fun and so exciting. There are so many uses that I hadn't even thought of. Whether you're excited like I am or if you're feeling stuck in your career and worried that your team can tell jumpstart your growth like I have with IDOU their online courses draw from design and innovation company IDO's award winning methods and you can dive in whenever you're ready. Never a bad time to transform your professional life, have a new leadership role and expanded team. Well, the most successful leaders don't have all the answers. They have a strong approach. So if you've ever felt overwhelmed by all the AI hype like I have, you know, you know it's important, but you're struggling with how to use it. Your day to day work. IDO use AI and design thinking programs are designed for leaders like you and me. People who want to stay ahead but keep problem solving human centered. It's practical, hands on and built for real world impact. IDOU is a whole suite of AI and design thinking programs that show you how to combine AI tools with human centered design to boost creativity, speed up insights and solve problems in new ways. IDO use courses are designed to seamlessly transition from theory to practice, ensuring that you can apply new skills right away and spark immediate progress. Classes start soon, so enroll today. For a limited time, IDOU is offering stackers 15 off site wide. Go to idou.comsb that's ideou.comsb for 15 off ideou.comsb Don, you started off with 2 million pounds. Jesse and Paula said nay, nay. We think it's a lot more than that. It is by. It is the greatest train Robbie of all time. Don.

[Don McDonald]

Yeah, I know. I think I went low. I know, I'm sorry.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Jesse, you feeling good at £15 million?

[Jesse Kramer]

Feeling okay? This is this one. I don't have a real clue. I don't have a clue.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Paula, you're blue sky at 15.1.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, I still kind of feel like I should have just split the middle.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, let's see who's right. Doug.

[Doug]

Hey there, stackers. I'm expert Jeff Roaster and guy who loves all Jeff stories about train robberies in the old days. Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. Seriously, the amount the robbers stole during the Great Train Robbery was so much, Jeff nearly spilled his Metamucil again. But the question was, how much was it in British pounds? Well, the number you were all looking for was 12.41 million less than Paula. 12.4 million less than what Jesse guessed and just 600,000 more than what Don Princeofdarkness owes.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Unbelievable.

[Doug]

I know it, Don, you screwed this up royally. Because the correct answer is the equivalent of about $7 million or $2.6 million making he who shall not be named our winner.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, Man. Die. Wow.

[Don McDonald]

Wow. I am so Jeffed right now. I am just Jeffed.

[Doug]

Yeah, you. You kind of jeffed us all.

[Don McDonald]

Yeah, I guess I did. Except that guy, you, whose initials you won't name. You're welcome, OG you're welcome.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

We also forgot to remind the studio audience about fan interference. And.

[Don McDonald]

Well, that's okay, because I was going to go with 62 when I.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, Eddie. Not cool, man. Eddie pops it right up there. All right, well, we've got the second half of this discussion, and these are all questions Eddie doesn't know the answer to. So we're going to be.

[Doug]

We're going to be good here.

[Paula Pant]

Here.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Let's start off with this. Don, I don't think I've gone to you first yet, my friend. Are you in or out on this statement? Target day funds are for people who don't want to take responsibility for their investments. Are you in or are you out?

[Don McDonald]

Oh, gosh. You see, before I say in or out, I need to qualify my favorite response to every financial question ever given to me is. Has always been, it depends.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I couldn't tell. Could you tell that, Doug?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yes.

[Don McDonald]

I would say, though, generally speaking, with that statement, I'm in. Yeah, I'm in.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You are in.

[Don McDonald]

I'm in. Because, I mean, it's not. You don't want to work hard on it, then do a tdf.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

There it is.

[Don McDonald]

Target Date Fund Parlor.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Pay it. Target Date Funds for people who don't want to take responsibility for their investments.

[Paula Pant]

Okay, I'm in. But you say that like it's a bad thing. Yeah, like, I think you're responsibly delegating responsibility.

[Don McDonald]

Wow. That was a really good answer.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, I. Thank you.

[Don McDonald]

Thank you. I like that. Responsibly. I like that. So I'm going to take that and steal it.

[Paula Pant]

I think target date funds are a responsible way to delegate the responsibility.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Jesse, Target Date funds are for people who don't want to take responsibility for their investments. Are you in or out?

[Jesse Kramer]

I listen to the show a lot, Joe, and I'm pretty sure you don't have a sponsor who's like a meal prep sponsor, do you?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I do not. Not at this particular.

[Jesse Kramer]

There's a bunch of them. What's the. What's.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I'm not against that.

[Jesse Kramer]

What's the really popular one called Blue Apron? Blue Apron. Right, Right.

[Don McDonald]

Hello, Fresh. Yeah.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah. Hello, Fresh.

[Don McDonald]

I like Factor. That was good.

[Jesse Kramer]

Hello, Fresh. Right. That's the way I see this question is, like, if you're responsible enough to be like, okay, I don't have time to grocery shop. I eat too much junk food. I'm just going to get hello Fresh or blue apron to send me the food that I am then going to eat. Is that responsibility, or is that you saying, I don't want the responsibility? And just like Paula said, like, it's kind of both. You're responsible enough to say, I'm going to outsource this to someone who knows what they're doing. And that's the exact same way that I see Target Date Funds.

[Don McDonald]

You young whippersnappers give great answers.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Target Date Funds. The hello Fresh of investing.

[Jesse Kramer]

That's it. That's it. Exactly right. So, you know, portion out my chicken for me. Send me the cream that I need to add to these mashed potatoes, and then, you know, I'll eat the asparagus and send it for two because I got to make dinner for Jeff as well. And just that's that.

[Doug]

Do one of the positions in the Target Date fund always come, like, ruptured and leaking over all of the rest of the funds inside the Target Date fund that you're a part of?

[Don McDonald]

That's the cream he was referring to?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah. Target Day funds, I think they're for nobody. But we will move on. Next up, let's start with Paula. How about this one? If you drive an old car, skip comprehensive auto coverage. It's not worth it. In or out?

[Paula Pant]

I'm in. I am in. I was about to give the caveat of unless you are in such a dire financial position that. That a car accident would be like, oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah. Financially devastating. In which case, use it as you're saving, like, just to get you through. That would probably be my caveat. But otherwise, as long as a car accident wouldn't be completely financially devastating, then, yeah, I'm in.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Don, I think she's playing your card of it. Kind of depends.

[Don McDonald]

Well, yeah, and I'm gonna say I'm in. Unless you own a rare antique Ferrari, you know, something like that. Maybe you should have comp on that.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Sure.

[Don McDonald]

Because.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Right.

[Don McDonald]

It's gonna cost a lot of money to fix it. Otherwise, what a waste of money. Just comprehensive. It's expensive, and, you know, your car already looks like crud. Let it look more Jeffy than it was.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Look more Jeffy. Jesse, you in or out?

[Jesse Kramer]

I think I'm in. Right. My understanding is there's some arrangements where, like, you have to have comprehensive on it.

[Don McDonald]

Like, I think if you only with a loan.

[Jesse Kramer]

Correct. If you're financing it in any way, Right. If you're leasing it, you have to have comprehensive on it. But yeah, once you're past that point, for most people, for most of our audience, I don't think it's going to be worth having comprehensive after that point.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

All right, stick with you, Jesse, for the next one, are you in or out? You should never contribute to a traditional 401k. If your tax brackets under 22%, there's a nerdy one.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, that's a really nerdy one. I'm definitely out on that because it's not about. Okay, here, here's the analogy, right? A lot of people are familiar with the 4% rule. They're familiar with retirement planning in, in some way. And they'll be like, oh, I'm, I'm earning $200,000 a year. How much do I need to save for retirement? Well, that's only one part of the fraction. Fractions have a top and a bottom, a numerator and a denominator. It's not just about what you earn. It's also about what you spend. And similarly, when you're making a determination on whether to contribute to traditional or Roth, it's not just about what your tax rate is today. It's also about trying to understand what your tax rate will be in the future. So if Your tax rate's 22% today, but in some future state, you're like, yeah, I'm in my highest earning years and I'm going to be a pretty frugal person in retirement, and I'm going to be in the 10 or 12% tax rate then. Well, then you want to contribute to a traditional account today, save the 22 cents on the dollars that you can, because you're only going to pay 10 or 12 in the future. So I am out? Is that what I said? I'm out?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You are out Makes it sound like you think it could be a good idea. Yeah. Paula, you in or out?

[Paula Pant]

I am also out, but my reason is much simpler. If you get a match. If you get a match, put your money into a traditional 401k.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

What if you can still get the match and get the Roth, though?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, I generally bias towards Roths no matter what, regardless of what tax bracket you're in. So, yeah, my overall bias is pro Roth unless there is a compelling reason otherwise. You know, I just, I have no objection to putting money into a traditional regardless of your tax bracket.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Don, in or out?

[Don McDonald]

Well, given all the Jeff and qualifiers in there, the never and the 22%, I'm going to have to say I'm in, basically because I hate trying to predict the future. To Jesse's point, I get it. If I think I'm going to be in a lower bracket in the Future, lower than 22 today, which is not a really high bracket, then yeah, it makes sense. But the, the reality is I don't know what my bracket's going to be in the future. And I'm going to bet, if I was a betting man, that it's not going to be a lot lower in the future, particularly if I'm a good saver. So I'm going to default to Roth. So therefore I'm in.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Last one. Last one we got.

[Don McDonald]

Jesse wants to add something.

[Jesse Kramer]

The last qualifier that I'll add there is, I will say this question. If someone is like 60 and in the twilight of their career and asking this question versus if they're 30 and they're going to retire in 30 years and asking that question, that does make a pretty big difference, right? Because I don't know about you, Don, but if I have to predict tax rates two or four or six years from now, I'm a lot more comfortable doing that than trying to predict tax rates in 20 or 30 or 40 years. So I'll just. That's the last thing.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Are you saying that somebody like Jeff in his 50s is more likely to die soon? Is that what you're saying?

[Don McDonald]

That's what Doug said.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Not having to. I had a plan as long dude's.

[Doug]

Already got one foot in.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

All right, last one. If you don't have a will by age 30, Paula Pant, you're being reckless. Are you in or out?

[Paula Pant]

I am in with that statement. And I will also admit that I don't have a will or an estate plan.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

That you're reckless.

[Paula Pant]

I am. Right. Yeah, exactly. Both statements are accurate.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Paul, you're Jeffing this up.

[Paula Pant]

If I pass, all my money goes to Jeff.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

That is very nice. He's got the verbal right there. You don't have a will. So this is like a will? Yes, you heard it here first, Jeff. Don, if you don't have a will by age 30, you're being reckless.

[Don McDonald]

I'm gonna say out, out, out, out. The reason I'm saying out is because of the year that you threw in there. 30. Not a lot of 30 year olds have substantive assets. Things that a complex estates, things that are getting. In fact, a lot of them aren't. They have nobody, nobody to whom their money is going to be left. So if they have somebody who's a favorite. Then do a POD on your bank account because that's probably all you have. Or on your IRA or your 401. Do a pod or name a beneficiary.

[Jesse Kramer]

Beneficiary, yeah.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Pod.

[Don McDonald]

Pay on death.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Do you know me, Jesse? Yeah. We got one each way. Are you reckless or not? You in or out?

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm out. I'm out. For similar reasons that Don said. When I think of when someone really needs to sit down and put together a will, it's like, do you have to name guardians? For who? Your kids.

[Don McDonald]

Who.

[Jesse Kramer]

Who will be the guardians of your kids if. If you were to die? And then. Right. You want to really spell out very, very clearly where your assets will go, because you either have a lot of them or because you just have. You have a unique set of directions for how you want to give assets upon your death. Short of that, like. Right, it would be nice maybe if you had a will to make everything easier for your loved ones after you die, rather than just leaning upon the state's kind of flow that they dictate, like, to your kids first, to your spouse first, kids second, parents third, whatever it may be. But dying with a will at like, 28 and just being like, oh, my, 40,000 bucks in a bank account and 14 1K. What happens to that? Like, it's kind of easy, quote, unquote easy for that to get figured out. And it's not irresponsible of you to have that happen to you.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, I feel better now.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah. Oh, you're not reckless.

[Paula Pant]

Look at me. I'm not reckless.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Wow. Unless that's your M.O. you just want to, you know, have this reckless image. You know, I'm sure people think of Paula Pant. They think reckless all the time. Guys, thanks for playing that game. That is so fun. I love playing in or out. And I'd like to thank everybody who's hanging out with us on YouTube. Tegan is here, Paul with a lot.

[Doug]

Of great stuff, except Eddie. Don't thank him.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Case Sands, Shane, Mike was here. Jennifer and a few others. Thank you so much for hanging out heavy here with us. Let's find out what's going on where all of you live, because when you finish listening to this show, these contributor vars, we have contribute for a reason because they have awesome stuff they're working on. We'll have our guest of honor go last. Paula, what's going on at the Afford Anything podcast?

[Paula Pant]

On the Afford Anything podcast, of course, every other episode. Ish. Joe, you. You join me and you And I talk through a bunch of guest questions, and we have some very good ones. We have an entire Efficient Frontier episode all about how to invest and how to properly price that risk in your portfolios. And Joe, you're like, you're Mr. Efficient Frontier, so you really walk us through that. So that is at the Afford Anything podcast.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, back away, Harry Markowitz. You won the Nobel Prize, but Paula calls me Mr. Efficient Frontier. So there you go. He can keep the hardware.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, I should also mention Nick Magiulli. Nick Magiulli joins us on the podcast as well, talking about the wealth ladder.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yes. And even, you know, if people new to the show and have, they're like, wait, didn't you just Joe interview Nick Moli? Go listen to Paula's interview because everyone tells us it's a good one, two punch. We. We interview people in completely different ways.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

So go listen to more Nick Maguli. Let's also listen to more Jesse Kramer, what's happening at the Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast. Jesse.

[Jesse Kramer]

Well, very humbled and, and proud to report. July was our all time best month on the podcast. And as for just a couple days ago, we released our eighth AMA episode. So that's a good one. Those are always popular episodes, so that's a good one to. To start your. Your p Fly journey, as it were. If you're looking to add that to.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Your repertoire, what can we mistake AMAS as? Because Jane hanging out with us. I asked about TDFs and, and Jane says, I'm a TDF fan, But I hate NBC's coverage. He's talking about the Tour de France. I love it. J.

[Don McDonald]

Maybe they were televising the target date funds again.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I know, I know.

[Don McDonald]

Asked for that.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Don, thanks so much for joining us again. So good to see you, my friend. What's going on? Talking real money.

[Don McDonald]

Well, you know, again, it's so good. I love stacking with you guys. It's so much fun. Talking real money is doing what talking real money has done for like 2000 episodes now. Literally, I just looked and I, I know I don't have a bunch up. We're over 1600 listenable episodes right now.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You're about the same place we are then.

[Don McDonald]

Slew of episodes.

[Doug]

Do you have some that are not listenable? Like, they're just too hard on the ears?

[Don McDonald]

Yeah, no, I wouldn't listen. I wouldn't listen Fridays because it was me doing Q and a. Nothing.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

1600 in those other four, Doug, and.

[Don McDonald]

Then those other 400. What we do is we talk with Our listeners. That's what we do almost every show. We take questions on our Saturday show, which is on the radio in Seattle, and then turns into a podcast. We take calls there on Saturdays. We take questions that are sent [e-mail] that are both typed and spoken. And so we have some topics and some interesting stuff. And we hate crypto and all that stuff. And we get in trouble for hating crypto regularly with the crypto crazies.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Right.

[Don McDonald]

But we try to answer those questions that are difficult to get answered without getting misled by somebody. And I think that's what we do best on Talking Real Money is try and keep investors and. And. And savers from being steered into bad stuff.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, you know, the thing that I think is disappointing about you and your awesome co host Tom is that you guys don't have opinions. If you had opinions, it would be a phenomenal show.

[Don McDonald]

I'm sorry. I'm working on it, but I'm a.

[Jesse Kramer]

Little old.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Getting up there with Jeff. Don.

[Don McDonald]

I'm gonna Jeff up my act. I'm gonna Jeff it right up.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

All right. Thank you so much for hanging out with us stackers. Doug always brings us home at the end of our episodes. Doug, what are the three things that need to be on our to do list today?

[Doug]

Well, Joe first, and I can't believe I'm about to say this, take some advice from Jesse Kramer. It may be okay.

[Don McDonald]

Finally.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Wait, what?

[Doug]

What? It may be okay to start off using credit cards in the early part of your financial journey, but only if you were the type of kid who did their homework and practiced piano without being yelled at by your mom and dad. Second, don't forget the wise words of. Well, the words of Paula Pan. Use target date funds if you're looking for a way to responsibly abdicate your responsibilities to a financial buy. But the big lesson. If you throw a birthday party for that dude Jeff, make sure there's a defibrillator, a pudding cup, and someone on standby to explain what a podcast is. Again, thanks to Don McDonald for joining us today. When Don's not hypnotizing unsuspecting people in the frozen foods aisle with his buttercream voice. You'll find don't prattling on about money over at Talking Real Money. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] he just sneaks up on people and then they just fall over.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Prattling might be my favorite word too.

[Doug]

Prattling.

[Don McDonald]

Prattling.

[Doug]

Thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fabulous podcast Afford Anything wherever reprobates are listening to finer podcasts. And thanks also to the Jeff Jesse Kramer for joining us. You'll find the Pfly Podcast wherever you're listening to us now. This show is the property of SP Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media social media spots. Come say hello. Oh yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.