How to Actually Enjoy Holiday Small Talk (And Give Better Gifts for Less) SB1771

Summary

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The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode SB1771: How to Actually Enjoy Holiday Small Talk (And Give Better Gifts for Less)
Date: December 8, 2025
Guest: Charles Duhigg, Bestselling Author ("Super Communicators")

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into two timely holiday topics: how to master small talk and excel at networking during events like work and neighborhood holiday parties, and how to give better gifts for less, even if they’re thrifted or secondhand. Joe and OG welcome back Charles Duhigg, author of Super Communicators, to unpack how anyone—even introverts—can build meaningful connections at social gatherings. They also discuss the growing trend of gifting thrifted treasures and share practical ways to save money while still spreading cheer.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How to Actually Enjoy—and Win At—Holiday Small Talk

[10:19–36:44]

• Challenge: Many find holiday parties stressful—especially those who identify as introverts or “faux extroverts.” It’s a prime time for making (or blowing) career connections, so how do you not just survive, but thrive?
  • Joe Saul-Sehy [10:31]: “For those of us, Charles, who are introverts... it's also just a difficult time in general. We're in far more holiday parties… And how many times have you and I heard stories about people and their hearts beating out of their chest and they step in it? Their one opportunity to talk to maybe that big client or the boss's boss.”

Top Tips from Charles Duhigg ("Super Communicators")

• Be Prepared with Questions—Research has shown that merely having a few questions or topics in your back pocket empowers you to face any social setting with confidence.

  • Charles Duhigg [11:02]: “Super communicators are really, really good at inviting other people to have conversations… Have a couple of questions ready to ask.”
  • Harvard Study: MBA students wrote out questions before meeting strangers—not to use them, but so they’d feel prepared. This reduced anxiety even though the questions usually went unused.

• Ask Deeper Questions—Move from surface questions ("Where do you work?") to questions about values or motivation (“Why did you decide to go into your field?”).

  • Charles Duhigg [13:10]: “A deep question is something that asks us about our values or beliefs or our experiences… It invites the other person to tell you about something real.”

“The goal of communication is for us to connect with each other.”
—Charles Duhigg [14:56]

• Match The Setting—Be mindful of the environment and the other person’s needs. Sometimes, just making a quick genuine connection is enough for a party; “inviting” deeper conversation can follow up later.
  • Charles Duhigg [15:50]: “What do you think your boss needs out of that? Why is she having this conversation with you?... Put a question in their head, and don’t require them to answer it.”

Prove You’re Listening—Not Just Hearing

• Demonstrate Real Listening—Show you’re present using verbal and non-verbal cues. Use “looping for understanding”: ask a question, paraphrase what you heard, and ask if you got it right.
  • Charles Duhigg [22:04]: “We have to prove that we’re listening… by repeating back what we hear the person saying, not in the same words.”
• It’s OK to Exit Gracefully—If you’re not vibing, politely acknowledge the exchange and move on. Announce you both have more mingling to do, which diffuses awkwardness.
• Recognize Conversation Types:
  • Practical (solving problems, making plans)
  • Emotional (sharing feelings, empathy desired)
  • Social (identities, relationships)
    Match your approach to the situation and your conversational partner.

2. The True Nature of Charisma: It's Curiosity

[30:33–32:54]

• Charisma ≠ Just Storytelling—True charisma is about making others feel like THEY are great, not you.

  • Charles Duhigg [31:25]: “Charisma is not about proving to you that I’m great. It’s about making you feel like you’re great... That’s what charisma actually is... willingness to go places with a person, to really try and figure out who is this person, what makes them tick.”

• Set a Manageable Social Goal—Don’t aim to be the funniest in the room; aim to have one meaningful exchange and learn something new about someone.

  • Charles Duhigg [32:07]: “If I have one real conversation at that party... that party and that conversation was a huge success. You were the best version of yourself at that party.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Preparation:

“Spend 30 seconds thinking about it before you go to the party... But I felt so confident because I knew that if there was like a weird silence... I had these questions.”
—Charles Duhigg [12:33]

On Inviting vs Mandating:

“When we invite rather than mandate, what we do is we make the person feel safe.”
—Charles Duhigg [28:40]

On Listening:

“The goal is to say, you know, you said this thing before that's really interesting to me, or let me see if I'm getting this right. What you're saying is... Did I hear you correctly? Because... I’m asking for permission to acknowledge that I was listening.”
—Charles Duhigg [22:04]

On Charisma:

“What charisma is, it's not about proving to you that I'm great. It's about making you feel like you're great.”
—Charles Duhigg [31:25]

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Important Timestamps

• 10:19 – Charles Duhigg joins to talk “Super Communicators"
• 11:02 – Prepping for small talk: the power of having a few questions ready
• 13:10 – Surface vs. deep questions
• 18:06 – Crafting great interactions with busy people (e.g., your boss)
• 19:20 – Nonverbal cues and being fully present
• 22:04 – “Looping for understanding” as a listening technique
• 24:28 – How to be prepared when you know nobody at the event
• 26:11 – Three kinds of conversation (practical, emotional, social)
• 28:40 – The power of inviting, not mandating, discussion
• 29:06 – Giving speeches or toasts: be brief and be vulnerable
• 31:25–32:54 – Redefining charisma as curiosity

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Holiday Gifting on a Budget: Thrift, Re-Gift, Repurpose!

[45:21–61:27]

• Headline Discussion: The Rise of Thrifted & Secondhand Gifts
  • Thrift stores saw Black Friday sales and young people are spearheading the trend of giving (cool!) secondhand gifts to save money and reduce waste.
  • Examples: Vinyl records, classic books, nostalgic toys, cookware, sports equipment—all hot thrift store items.
  • Doug [57:05]: “One of the points of gift giving is to show that you really love and care and know about that person and made a choice to get them something that they would value… So, you gotta pick your spots.”
• Gift-Giving Etiquette: Be honest if something is secondhand; share the story (“I found this amazing vintage sweater and thought of you!”). Don’t pass used goods off as new.
  • Joe Saul-Sehy [52:07]: “If she had said, I know you're a finance fan. So, I read this already and I thought you would really like it—that was one thing. By the way, the same year she gave my father-in-law this VHS collection of all the James Bond movies… They got a new DVD player. She’s cleaning her house, giving gifts to family members and trying to pass them all off.”
• Context Matters: Used sports gear is great for growing kids, a funky mug or record for a collector is a win, but underwear? Maybe stick to new.
  • OG [48:37]: “Like underwear? Probably not a big fan.”

Top Tips for Thrifting Gifts:

• Inspect for quality (no stains, chips, or excessive wear)
• Choose natural fibers (better sustainability)
• Look for jewelry stamps (e.g., “925” for sterling silver)
• Wash and clean before gifting
• Share origin stories if it helps the recipient appreciate the treasure

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The Meaning of Connection

• Beyond Money—Meaningful conversations and relationships are a greater predictor of health and happiness than wealth.

  • Charles Duhigg [34:09]: “There was really only one predictor of lifelong health and happiness and success… People who are happiest and healthiest and most successful... had at least a couple of close friends at age 45.”
  • Even a brief, “awkward” initial call to rekindle an old relationship can bring joy—don’t second-guess it.

• Stacking Benjamins Purpose—It’s not just about finances, but about “more life, and more meaning.”

  • Joe Saul-Sehy [35:53]: “Stacking Benjamins is all about... Not about more money, it's about more life, more meaning in our life.”

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Takeaways & To-Do's

How to Win at Holiday Socializing:

• Prepare 3–5 open-ended or “deep” questions ahead of time
• Shift away from “fact” questions to questions about experiences or motivations
• Be fully present; listen deeply (try “looping for understanding” in tense moments)
• Don’t stress about being “charismatic;” focus on making others feel seen and heard
• If you want a deeper connection with someone (like your boss), use the party for a warm, brief check-in, then follow up later for more depth

Gift-Giving Wisdom:

• Thrift and secondhand gifts are cool—when thoughtfully chosen and cleaned
• Add a personal touch or story
• Match the gift to the recipient’s personality and preferences
• The spirit of the gift (and the intent to delight) matters more than the price or “newness”

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Final Words from Charles Duhigg

“Conversations are what make life meaningful. And the more we lean into them, the better off we are.”
—Charles Duhigg [35:37]

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Resources Mentioned

• Super Communicators by Charles Duhigg (book & audiobook)
• MarketWatch article on secondhand gifting (linked in Stacking Benjamins show notes)
• The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg
• stackingbenjamins.com for show notes, resources, and upcoming events

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Next episode sneak peek:
Lou Frankfurt (longtime CEO of Coach) joins to discuss fashion, career pivots, and leadership lessons.

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Transcript

[Kevin Harlan]

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[Joe Saul-Sehy]

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Finally getting cold here in Northeast Texas. That means my hands firm for everybody.

[OG]

North of the Mason Dixon line.

[Kevin Harlan]

Cold.

[OG]

We mean 60s.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, right.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[OG]

Morning lows in the mid-40s means I.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Have to put on socks. Cold like that.

[OG]

Cold pants.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes.

[Doug]

We've been shoveling for three or four weeks and you're now just maybe seeing a little dew on the ground to.

[OG]

Get my pants out. Where are my sweatpants? Yeah, I did put on a sweatshirt.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Today because I was like, yeah, we're talking real cold. Put on a sweatshirt kind of cold. Like real cold at the beginning of our Monday shows. If you're new here, welcome first of all. Second, grab the mug and and lift it in the air. Because we begin every week by saluting those people that protected us all weekend so that we could party like it's 2025 this last month of the year. So on behalf of the men and women at Navy Federal Credit Union who serve our active duty troops and our veterans and the people who make podcast in mom's basement, here's to you. Thank you so much. Let's all go Stack Benjamin's together now.

[Doug]

Wow, that is mighty brave of you to be Waving around a Michigan State Spartans mug. This time of year, Doug, it's basketball time. This airs. I'm pretty sure your football coach is looking for a new job.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's basketball season.

[OG]

No. Didn't you hear, Doug? They just eliminated football.

[Doug]

Oh, State just got rid of it.

[OG]

They're just like, we're good after this year.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think that's okay.

[Doug]

I went to a basketball school too, but we never had any pretenses. We never acted like we were once a football school. We just, we make quarterbacks and, and we have great basketball teams.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Ours goes off and on. We're like, yes. We're. No. Yeah. No. Yeah.

[Doug]

No. How about we get the show started?

[OG]

That was a little boy. I thought the greatest thing in the.

[Charles Duhigg]

World would be to be able to make records.

[OG]

Okay, now let's just play this and you'll see what it sounds like.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin show.

I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. And it's that time of year again. Mom starts inviting all the neighbors over. Joe and OG host the SB holiday party. And I gotta go find some pants. Even worse. How do you navigate the chattiest month of the year? Here to help you either become the hit of the event or. Or just survive it, we welcome Mr. Super Communicator himself, best selling author Charles Duhigg. In our headline segment, remember that horrible time when your sister in law gifted you that thing that somebody else had already used? Turns out that's a thing. We'll explain why you might be in the crosshairs to receive a hand me down this holiday season. And now two guys who didn't invent the world of personal finance but they're great at redefining it. It's Joe O. And O. Jj.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And a happy Monday to you Stackers. Welcome back to another episode of the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe Saul Sehi and across the card table from me is the one and only OG how are you brother?

[OG]

My princess wave.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

He's. I think it's full on queen material. Don't you Doug? Like that's, that's not princess.

[Doug]

I think he's kind of princessy.

[OG]

Very much so.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Depends on the day. But we need him in full on queen mode today because he's got to be the one who just navigates the ship because man, we got a great show today. We've got the best selling author Charles Duhigg who is back, you know. Oh gee, this is hell for some of our stackers this time of year. This is the chattiest month. We go to holiday parties at the for the neighborhood we might go to for our kids school. We maybe go to the holiday party for work. We are going to so many, so many things. And if you're an introvert, how do you navigate that? But this can be the time where you build those relationships that help you stack Benjamin's. The rest of the year it's all about who you know and if you do a good job. So Charles Duke's going to help us with that today.

[OG]

Sweet.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Should be a lot of fun. I know that you're looking forward to the stacking Benjamin's holiday party, Doug.

[Doug]

Except the part where I have to put on pants.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's the annoying part for you, but the good part for all of us. Thank goodness mom has a dress code. OG if she didn't have a dress code this this would be absolutely horrible.

[OG]

I just like the bathtub full of eggnog. That's my favorite part.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Mom insist on that. And I just think that is that makes it. Well yeah.

[Doug]

You guys don't care. You don't have to clean the drain out after the party. I'm the one who's got to unclog. You know what eggnog does to a plumbing system?

[OG]

Is that euphemism?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's. I was gonna ask. I'm not sure what plumbing system you're talking about.

[Doug]

I gotta clean it all.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh. Not only are we getting to talk to Mr. Duig, we are going to also talk about a trend with the kids these days. What are the kids these days doing for all you who aren't kids that you want to know or maybe you are a kid, you want to know what the hot trend is. We've got you covered. So sit back, relax, you found the show.

[Kevin Harlan]

Hold on.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Spend the next.

[Doug]

Did you just say maybe you're a kid and you want to know what the hot trends are like they're coming to us.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

They are totally come to us.

[OG]

Never know.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Could be a first. It could happen doc.

[Doug]

It could happen.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Next thing you know he's going to say that the holidays just aren't real. Like none of this is real. Charles Duhigg is a best selling author. I first heard about him with his amazing book the Power of Habit. Of course he was on just over a year ago talking about his incredible follow up book Super Communicators about the ways that people who are phenomenal communication, how they do it. So when I was having a chat with CHARLES Last month I said, hey, you know what? We have our annual episode. Vanessa Van Edwards has been on, Suzanne Rowan has been on. We try to do this every year to help you. It's so big. I'm being able to stack more Benjamin that we love. Talking about navigating the holiday party and I asked Charles if he would come and do that. He's like, oh, that'd be a lot of fun. So he's upstairs talking to Mom. We're going to hear from him in just a moment. But before we get to Charles, we got a couple sponsors to make sure that we can keep on keeping on. You're not going to pay anything and you're going to be able to negotiate not just the holiday party, but also forge some of those lifelong relationships hopefully this month. So we're going to hear from them. And then the Charles Duhigg joins us in the basement.

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[Joe Saul-Sehy]

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And I'm super happy he's back for his third trip down to mom's basement. Charles Duhigg joins us again. How are you, man? We need a frequent flyer pass for you.

[Charles Duhigg]

Well, thanks for having me on again. I really appreciate it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, this is a big time of year when I think we need to be super connector. Because for those of us, Charles, who are introverts, who pretend that we're extroverts, it's difficult. It's also just a difficult time in general. We're in far more holiday parties. We're talking to the boss that or the boss's boss that we never get to talk to. And how many times have you and I heard stories about people and their hearts beating out of their chest and they step in it? They're one opportunity to talk to maybe that big client or the boss's boss. This is our one time when we need to put on our superconductor pants and get good at this.

[Charles Duhigg]

And that's one of the reasons I wrote Super Communicators is because I talked to a lot of people who said, look, I don't know how to make small talk, right? I go to these parties and I sort of stand in the corner and I feel awkward, like, what should I do? And one of the things that we know is that super communicators are really, really good at inviting other people to have conversations. And so for the upcoming months, when you're going to a holiday party or when the family's around the dinner table for Thanksgiving, or when you know you're going to your neighbors and you don't really know your neighbors that well, there's a couple things you can do to make those interactions easier and better. The first is have a couple of questions ready to ask. There was this really interesting study that was done at Harvard where they brought a bunch of business school students into a room and they said, okay, look, in about five minutes you're going to have a conversation with a stranger, which is one of the most anxiety producing things you can ask people to do. And so they said, but before you have this conversation, we're going to give you an index card. Write down three things you might want to talk about, right? Like maybe a question you want to ask or something that's happened to you. Just take 30 seconds and literally write these down. And people would say, like, you know, did you see the game last night? And are you going to that movie? Gonna go see that movie this weekend? And let me tell you about this, like, cool party I went to. Then they tell everyone, okay, go ahead and put your, your cards in your pocket. And then they assign them their partners and they go and they have the conversation. And afterwards they asked them, how did that go? And the people said, you know, it went so much better than I thought it was gonna go. And then they said, well, did you ever ask those questions that you wrote down? And they said, no, no. You know, actually, we had so much else to talk about, but I felt so confident because I knew that if there was like a weird silence or something like that, I had these questions or these topics in my back pocket that I could pull out. Oftentimes when we have trouble making conversation at parties, it's because we have trouble knowing how to start. And we tend to imagine, anticipate that it's going to be more awkward than it actually is. But there's a solution to that, which is ask a question. Everyone loves being asked questions. And if you have some questions in your back pocket, every conversation is going to go better.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is that it? For us, it's not about trying to force myself, Charles, to be a natural networker. It's just this mindset shift and preparation.

[Charles Duhigg]

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, there's other aspects to it too, right? Like what kind of question you ask matters. Because most of the questions we ask are questions about facts, or they're what are known as surface questions. Oh, where do you live? Oh, where do you work? And the problem is, those aren't really invitations to have a deeper conversation. Those are usually just kind of things that lead to one word or three word answers. But then there's another kind of question that's known as a deep question. And a deep question is something that asks us about our values or beliefs or our experiences. And that can sound a little bit intimidating, but it's as simple as if you meet someone who's a doctor, instead of asking them, oh, where did you go to medical school? Asking them, oh, why'd you decide to go to medical school? What was it that made you want to be a doctor? That small shift in a question invites the other person to tell you about something real, to describe something about their experiences or their values. That's the beginning of a real conversation. And the nice thing about a deep question is that when you ask a deep question and the other person responds, it's natural for us to answer our own question. Oh, you went to medical school because you saw Your dad get sick. That's really interesting. I decided to become a lawyer because I saw my uncle get arrested when I was a kid. So that's the second thing. The first thing is to ask more questions and to have those questions in your back pocket. Just spend 30 seconds thinking about it before you go to the party.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Can I ask a follow up? Because I did want to talk about this, about the three things super connectors do better, because I think they're super communicators. Well, and this is funny, this is an aside, because I know I've called it super connectors three times, but I do think super communicators are super connectors. And I think that this, this brain, you know, fuzz that I have calling it quote the wrong thing is truly. Because when you are communicating better, I think it's not about saying more, Charles. I think it's about connecting better.

[Charles Duhigg]

Absolutely. That's why the subtitle of the book is how to unlock the Secret Language of Connection is because you're exactly right. The goal of communication is for us to connect with each other.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I swear to God, every time I tell my friends about your book, which I've read I think 500 million times, I think I always call it Super Connectors. That's right. That's right.

[OG]

I love it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

They find you anyway, Charles. They.

[Doug]

Oh, good, good.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

They find a way. But there are three things they do differently, and the first one was to ask better questions. Now I'm thinking about the setting here though, right? I'm at a holiday party. I got a drink in my hand and I've got the boss for just a second. I can ask him, you know, where did you go to law school versus why did. But I also think this is a person. She is super busy. She wants to talk to 50 million different people. I'm asking her this question that's inviting something she may not want at the hel. Holiday party, right?

[Charles Duhigg]

And that's the second thing that you have to keep in mind is how do I prove to this person that I'm actually listening to what they're saying and that I'm responding to what they need. Because the truth of the matter is every time we open our mouth, there is something motivating that, right? Like I want you to think that I'm funny. So I tell you a joke. I want to get to know you better. So I ask you a question. And so my question for that person is, when you're at that party and you see your boss and you've got 30 seconds with them. Question might not be the right thing to do. What is it that you need out of that? Number one? And number two, what do you think your boss needs out of that? Why is she having this conversation with you? So let me ask you, like, what do you think? Like, when you're in a setting like that and. And you're talking to someone who has some. Some clout over your life and you don't have that much time, why are you talking to them?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think my mission, if I'm thinking about this party, it might be just to get on their radar so that I can have a better conversation with them later on. When I invite them to lunch later on where we can maybe dig in, I feel like there's some sort of connection so that I can then invite a deeper conversation.

[Charles Duhigg]

And why do you think your boss is there? Like, why are they at that party?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, our boss is there, number one, I think to show leadership. Right. And to show that in unity. This is important. And I would think.

[Charles Duhigg]

Here.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Do you like it when I get the aha Halfway through the answer? I hope all the stackers just heard that. And for those of you not watching the video, as my face turns red, I'm like, and maybe they want to get to know their workers a little better, too, Charles.

[Charles Duhigg]

It could be. And so what I love about what you just said is that they want to, like, show their leadership, and they want to get to know their workers a little bit better. And so let's use that as a roadmap. Let's go up and say, hey, Mrs. Corcoran, I just want you to know, like, I thank you for all the work you've done in the last year. Like, I just feel like this company is, like, on the right path. It's doing great. I feel really, really seen and appreciated here. And so I just wanted to thank you for that. And I actually did have a question for you. I'm wondering how you're thinking about the future, but I know you've got a lot of people to talk to right now. If it's okay, can I email you my question and see if you might have, you know, 15 or 20 minutes to get together for lunch someday where we can talk it through?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Fabulous.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah. I mean, and what's. What I did there is I put a question in their head, and I didn't require them to answer it. Right. Because there's the difference between mandating something and inviting something. When I ask you, oh, why did you decide to become a doctor? I'm inviting you to tell me more about who you are. When I ask you what's the hardest case you've ever had that made you cry. I'm kind of mandating you to give me something deep, right?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Charles Duhigg]

And so what I want to do is I want to invite and not mandate. You know, if you only have 30 seconds, that's not really a lot for back and forth. But that is enough time to put a question out there and say, I know that you, you went to business school and I'm thinking of going to business school. Is it okay if I drop you a note? Because I just want to ask you, like, what made you decide to go to business school and do you think it was a good decision? So I'm, I'm showing them I'm actually interested in who they are and that gives me their ability to send that follow up email.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's fabulous. Is there something by the way that super communicators do physically? You know, I'm thinking about some of these. If you remember the 80s and 90s in the old NLP language of I lean forward a little bit or I look you in the eye or I focus on this thing. Are there anything super communicators are really good with nonverbal cues.

[Charles Duhigg]

So nonverbal cues are really important in language, but it's the type of thing where if you're thinking about them, you're probably not doing them very well. And so people tend to say you should have a firm handshake and you should look them in the eyes. There's really no science to back this up. Different people have different methods of communicating. What is important is to be fully present. Because if I'm fully present with you in that conversation, my body is automatically showing you that I'm interested. And one of the things that we know that's interesting from neuroscience about communication is that when you're in conversation with someone, your body and your brain actually starts to change. Your breath patterns will start to match each other, your heart rate will start to match each other. And most importantly, if we could see inside your head, we would see that your neural activity is becoming more and more similar. This is known as neural entrainment within neuroscience. And it's actually the goal of communication. We think of communication as something that's about transmitting information, but it's not. That's just a side aspect. A lucky beneficiary. The reason communication exists, the reason why we evolved to communicate, is so that we can feel connected to each other, so we can entrain with each other. And so if you're focused on really like having a real conversation, on listening to what this person is saying, on following them, and they're going to know, they're going to see it in your posture. You're not going to have to think about like, how do I stand or how do I make eye contact. Whatever feels most present to you is the best thing to do.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

How do I fight all of the distractions at the holiday party? Let's say I am trying to have a really good conversation. I'm trying to be present. You know, we've got music playing in the background, somebody spilling the punch. There's another conversation that's a little too close to you. And I. Somebody says something about a horse, and all of a sudden I. I realize horses. And so I'm trying to pay attention to this, but I overhear some of this. Are there some keys to making sure that you're able to stay present and in the moment?

[Charles Duhigg]

Absolutely. So the first thing is, if you're at a holiday party, it's okay to have a bunch of short conversations, right? I mean, at a holiday party is not really the time to have like a real heart to heart with someone. And so if you're talking to someone and they mention a horse in this other conversation, it's totally okay to say, like, do you mind just to hit pause on what we're talking about? They just mentioned a horse, and I love horses. So I think what's important there is the setting actually matters. But let's say that you're at a party where there aren't mentioning horses. Where you do want to get a little bit deeper with this person at that moment. What's really important is to prove to them that you're listening. Because listening alone is often not enough. There's a suspicion in all of our minds that the person we're talking to is not actually listening to us. They're just waiting their turn to speak.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right.

[Charles Duhigg]

Or they're looking over our shoulder to see if there's someone like more important or more famous they should go talk to.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I hate that.

[Charles Duhigg]

It's the worst. It's the worst. And so I think what's important is that we have to prove that we're listening. And the way that we do that is oftentimes by repeating back what we hear the person saying, not in the same words. There's actually a technique for this known as looping, for understanding that you can use in conflict situations, which is that step one is you ask a question, step Two is you repeat back in your own words, which you heard the other person say. And it's important to do it in your own words, right? Not to mimic. Mimic them. But the goal here is to say, you know, you said this thing before that's really interesting to me, or let me see if I'm getting this right. What you're saying is. And then step three, which is the one I always forget, is ask if you got it right. Did I hear you correctly? Because what I'm really doing at that moment is I'm asking for permission to acknowledge that I was listening. And if you acknowledge that I'm listening to you, you become much more likely to listen to me in return.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I love that so much. By the way, when people do that, when they say, did I hear you correctly? Did you say it does just this acknowledgement makes me feel heard. So it is this check. And it's funny because I love it. But Charles, I don't do it enough. It's hard, right?

[Charles Duhigg]

It's hard. And I'll say we don't have to do it all the time. In conflict conversations and situations where we disagree with someone, where there's a little bit of tension, it's incredibly powerful. But in most of our conversations, we don't have to do that because we can show that we're listening simply by asking a follow up question, you know, or by saying, oh, it's so funny. You mentioned that. That reminds me of this thing that happened to me. I just want to prove to you that I'm paying attention and more importantly that I'm processing what you're saying instead of just like biting my time until it's my turn to say something.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I love the idea from earlier. I want to go back to earlier. And the idea of it was really the first technique that you shared, Charles, which was, I do a little bit of homework ahead of time. I'm a little bit prepared. I might not use any of the preparation. I thought that was fascinating. No, I didn't use any of it. We had such a good time. We did that. But I felt prepared, which gave me confidence. But a lot of that preparation is thinking about the people that are going to be at the party tonight. After you and I record this, I'm headed to this event and I know a few people there. And being an introvert, I'm going to do that. But let's say. And you've done this, I've walked into a neighborhood gathering before and whore of horrors, there is nobody there that I know. I Know nobody.

[Charles Duhigg]

Oh, this happens all the time.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Or the new person at work, like, what do I do when preparation becomes that much harder?

[Charles Duhigg]

So the preparation doesn't necessarily have to be specific to the people who are in that crowd, because you're right, a lot of times we don't know who's going to be at the party. And the preparation doesn't even have to be specific to this event. I might have a couple of questions that I usually ask. So when I walk into a setting like that, I give a lot of speeches, right? And so oftentimes before the speech, there's people milling around who are going to be in the audience. And I'll just walk over and I'll be like, hey, I just want to introduce myself. I'm Charles. I'm just wondering, like, what brought you to this conference today? So, like, everyone loves being asked questions like that. Everyone loves being asked questions, period. And I think in those situations, it's really easy to walk up and just ask a question. It's much easier than saying something about yourself. The second part of that is, let's say we ask that question, and I find out this person is not someone I want to talk to, right? So how do I gracefully exit that conversation? And the way to do it is oftentimes simply to announce that you have to. Right? To say, oh, man, it's been so great talking to you. I apologize. I don't want to keep you, because I know that there's a bunch of people here you need to meet with, and I have to go find my boss somewhere in the crowd. But it was so great meeting you. So what I'm doing in the air is I'm telling them, look, I really like you, but we do both have to move on to another conversation. And that's okay. That takes the sting of it away and the awkwardness of it away.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Boy. And that sometimes feels hard. And they're like, no, wait, but I want to tell you one more dad joke. Yeah.

[Charles Duhigg]

And if they do, then that's okay, too, right? But usually people are like, yeah, thank you so much. It's so nice to meet you as well. And you walk away with this very warm feeling, as opposed to a feeling of awkwardness.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You talk. The second piece was listening and proving that you're listening. I interrupted there. What is the third. What's the third piece of being a super communicator?

[Charles Duhigg]

The third part of being a super communicator is to recognize that there's different kinds of conversation. And oftentimes when we're in a conversation, we might move from different type to different type, but we have to move together. So most conversations fall into one of three buckets. There are practical conversations where we're making plans, we're solving problems, but then there's also kind of emotional conversations where I tell you something about my life or I tell you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to solve that problem for me, I don't want you to solve my emotions. I want you just to listen and empathize and share with me. And then there's social conversations, which is about how we relate to each other and to society, the identities that are important to us. And what's really important is that researchers have found that all three of these different kinds of conversations are all equally legitimate. And in a discussion you'll probably move from emotional to practical and back to emotional and then to social media. But if two people are talking to each other and if they aren't having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, it's very hard for them to fully hear each other and it's very hard for them to feel connected.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Why is that? Because we get triggered early in the conversation or.

[Charles Duhigg]

Well, I think because why would we be like ships passing at night? I think because we're not actually present, we're not actually listening to the other person. Right. What we're doing is we're saying like, I'm going to talk to my wife and I'm going to tell her like she's upset about this thing and I'm going to tell her all the solutions I have to solve that problem. Well, I'm thinking there about myself, I'm thinking about what I want instead of what she wants and what we can build together that we both want. And so one of the things that super communicators do is they spend just a couple of seconds at the beginning of a conversation asking themselves, is this a social conversation or an emotional conversation or practical conversation? What kind of frame of mind does this person seem in? And then oftentimes they'll match them or they'll invite them to match themselves. And once we're aligned, we can move from conversation to conversation together very easily. But the key is if you come up and you're talking about something emotional, you're telling me about a fight that you had with your, you know, 18 year old son. And I say, oh, here's a solution for that, here's what you ought to do. Then we're having different kinds of conversations. But if I just take a moment and say, God, that sounds so hard. I'm so sorry. I've had struggles like that with my own kids, and I know, like, how much it can keep you up at night. If it's okay, can I tell you a couple of things that I do with my kids that I think has made a difference? In other words, do I have your permission for us to move from an emotional conversation to a practical conversation together that works really, really well?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And again, the framework, Charles, of not mandating but inviting.

[Charles Duhigg]

That's exactly right. Because when we invite rather than mandate, what we do is we make the person feel safe.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You mentioned giving speeches, and there are times at a holiday event. Let's say I'm hosting the holiday event and maybe it's time for me to make. To make a speech or give a toast or do something like that. Is there a way that super communicators stand out when they're speaking to a room full of people where others don't?

[Charles Duhigg]

I think they do. Number one is they're usually brief. When a toast doesn't go well or a speech doesn't go well, it's usually because it's too long and people are kind of getting bored. They were in the middle of a conversation, they want to go back to it. So brevity is the soul of wit here. But then the second thing is, oftentimes what you'll notice is that the best speeches are speeches where people reveal something about themselves. They indulge a little bit of vulnerability because it's interesting to look at vulnerability, and vulnerability makes that person real. And so I think that the two things you can do is keep your comments brief and then talk about who you are. And that doesn't mean you have to talk about, like, you know, the time your mom was mean to you or why you cried on the shoulder of your spouse recently. Vulnerability doesn't mean that. Vulnerability simply means telling you something about myself that is meaningful to me and that you could judge if you wanted to. But I'm hoping that you won't.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

When we began talking about this when you were on in Super Communicators, super connectors, all the above. I still think of it as super connectors. I can't.

[OG]

That's okay. That's okay.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I can't help it because I truly do think they're super connectors.

[Charles Duhigg]

I do, too.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But when super communicators first came out, we talked about this. And talking about it now again, in light of the holiday season, it just strikes me again, Charles how much we think being a super communicators about charisma. And you're saying it's really much, much more about curiosity.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah, it's absolutely right. When researchers look at charisma, there's what people think is charisma. Oh, he's handsome or she's beautiful. And they just have the gift of gab. They can tell such great stories, and they. They just seem so optimist all the time. And then if you actually study those people who have been deemed to be charismatic, the ones who tell stories all the time and kind of do the stereotypical charismatic things, everyone thinks they're a blowhard. Like, they don't come off as charismatic. They misunderstand what charisma is. What charisma is, it's not about proving to you that I'm great. It's about making you feel like you're great. When I ask you a question, I say, oh, that's so interesting. I've had similar experience in my life. But, like, the fact that you handled it that way, that's really admirable. All of a sudden you think I'm charismatic because talking to me, you enjoy talking to me so much.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right.

[Charles Duhigg]

It makes you feel good about yourself. And that's what charisma actually is. Charisma. You're exactly right. We should think of it as curiosity. We should think of it as this willingness to go places with a person, to really try and figure out who is this person, what makes them tick, what do they want to talk about right now? How can I invite them to talk to me about it? That's what true, genuine charisma is, which.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

To me is far more interesting. Because this discovery, like this exploration is so exciting. I think it turns every party into, what can I learn that I didn't know before? You know? So in some ways it kind of parallels Carol Dweck. Right. And this growth mentality, it really is parallel thinking to that.

[Charles Duhigg]

Well, and what I love about it is that it changes the burden you place on yourself. When I go to a party, my goal is not to walk away with everyone thinking, I'm really funny or I'm really clever or I'm really smart. My goal is just to understand who other people are. And if I have one real conversation at that party and I walk away saying, you know, Jim's a lot more interesting than I thought he was like, did you know that. That he grew up abroad? If you do that, that party and that conversation was a huge success. You were the best version of yourself at that party. And so it's easier to go to those parties when I set the expectation. Not that I'm going to impress everyone with how smart I am or they. They're going to think I'm so dynamic, but rather I just want to learn about at least one other person. Then suddenly the stakes are so much lower for me and I feel so much more confident walking in.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's funny, it's been a long time since I read the Great Gatsby, but I just, I seem to remember even at the beginning, when Nick goes to the party for. People haven't read the Great Gatsby, I apologize, but it just seems like the reason the Great Gatsby at the beginning is so loved is because he made everybody feel like they were something, that they were important, that they were this bigger than themselves and elevated everyone else around them less about him.

[Charles Duhigg]

And if you'll remember, most people at those parties never met Jay Gatsby.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right. He would.

[Charles Duhigg]

He would stay up in his room and he would like, moon for Daisy, the woman that he was like, in love with.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And so he did.

[Charles Duhigg]

They didn't even know him. But because he brought. Invited them to this thing that made them feel special and that he clearly, like, wanted them to feel at home, they thought he was the most wonderful guy on earth.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Super Communicators has been out for a while now. I know hundreds of thousands of people have read the book, have listened to the audiobook. There's got to be something, though, after hundreds of interviews and clearly, by the way, the best two, I'm sure were a mom's basement. I know you don't.

[Charles Duhigg]

That's absolutely true.

[OG]

That's right.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But there's got to be something. You're like, I don't think interviewers ask me about this one piece. Enough. Is there a piece of Super Communicators that is just being underexplored by people that do what I do?

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah. So I think it's a really good question. And you're right, it's been out for a little while. The paperback came out, I think about two months ago now. I think the one thing that when it comes up is most valuable, that sometimes people don't get to is what is the role of communication in living a good life? And it turns out there was a study that was done, the Harvard Study of Adult Development, also known as the Grant Study, where they followed thousands of people throughout their entire lives. And what they found is that there was really only one predictor of lifelong health and happiness and success. And that was that people who are happiest and healthiest and most successful at age 65 had at least a couple of close friends at age 45. And that doesn't mean that they talk to those people every single day or every single week or even every single month. But there was at least a couple of people that they went out of their way to keep in touch with, to have conversations with. It is these relationships that we have with the people around us, be it our spouses, our kids, our friends or coworkers, it's these relationships that make life meaningful. And so everyone who's listening, there's someone in your life who you haven't talked to in a long time, and you like that person a lot. And it's just now it feels awkward because you can't really remember what their wife's name is, right? And you can't remember how old their kids are. And you're worried you're going to call up and it's going to seem weird, and you're gonna be like, by the way, what's your wife's name? But if you call them up Today, the first 20 seconds might be a little bit awkward. And the next 20 minutes are gonna be wonderful. And you are going to feel so good about yourself and the world and your friend, and you're gonna be so happy that you picked up the phone. So that's the thing that I think people should carry away, is that conversations are what make life meaningful. And the more that we lean into them, the better off we are.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That is Charles, to me, what stacking Benjamins is all about. It's not about more money. It's about more life, more meaning in our life. I mean, money's just a route to the end. And, man, this time of year, when we can communicate, not just more, because we're going to communicate more this month, whether we want to or not communicate better is so important. Thank you so much for mentoring our stackers again today. It's good seeing you, my friend.

[Charles Duhigg]

It's good seeing you, too. Thank you so much for having me on. This is such a treat for me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And let's go back. The paperback Super Communicator is now available everywhere.

[Charles Duhigg]

Everywhere. You buy books and on audio, on audible and audiobook. I recorded it myself, so. And I'd love to hear from folks.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Just one last thing. Do you find that fun, recording the audiobook?

[Charles Duhigg]

I find it to be work. It's hard, right? I don't know if you've done this.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Before, but, like, it was Far harder with Stacked than I thought that it was going to be by a bajillion percent.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah. In order for the words to work, you can't really. You have to both be thinking about what you're saying and not thinking about what you're saying. And I find it to be a kind of exhausting activity. But I'm really pleased with the product afterwards. And it's always nice to go back and be like, oh, you know what? That sentence came out better than I thought it would. And then to look at other sentences and be like, God, that just. You could have found a more graceful way of saying that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hi, I'm Mitchell Walker, and when I'm not teaching people how to find hidden money, I'm out stacking Benjamins.

[Doug]

Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and today we celebrate the birthday of an invention that cleaned up America's biggest dumps. Imagine this. It's the year 1857, and your new York businessman, Joseph Gayetti. You've realized there's one dirty job that you need to clean up, especially after a night of Mexico. Mexican food, if you're Joe's mom. So you created Gayetti's medicated paper to wipe away your troubles. That's right. You just scoured your brain for the recipe to make the first commercially sold toilet paper. Congrats. But I won't shake your hand until you washed it. I know you skipped last week, the McDonald's. Let's keep this relationship sanitary. Here's today's question. When it comes to Amazon sales, what toilet paper brand wipes the others asses? Is it Scott, Quilted Northern, or Charmin? I'll be back with the cleanest answer you can imagine.

[OG]

Stackers.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm super excited about this spot because my day has completely changed. In fact, my week has completely changed because first thing in the morning. I've taken AG1 just starting in the last few months. And it's funny, while I don't really notice it during the day, at the end of the day, I was more productive. I was more focused. I haven't gotten the sleepies. I don't get sleepies every day, but on some days I do. And I haven't had those same things. I feel like my conversations have been crisper. I feel like I'm more focused on the right things to do. And after a while, I suddenly realized that this is because of AG1. That's the only thing that's changed. So what is AG1? It's the daily health drink that combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants into one simple green scoop. It's one of the easiest things you could do to support your body every day. You just take it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. And man, my days are just about 5 to 10% better every day. This time of year, it's more important than ever to be proactive about supporting your immune health. If you're traveling over the holidays or you have kids that are going to be rolling back home after time in school, you want to spend time with them. The large family gatherings. Whatever is up this year, you want to be focused and in it. As we approach the New year, it's never too early to take control of your health. AG1's one of the easiest daily health habits that you can start even before the new year. And if you use our link because you're a stacker, you'll get the newest formula and best price available for AG1 next gen right now I love using AG1. I think you will too. And now AG1 has their best offer ever. If you go to drinkag1.comsb you'll get the welcome Kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 and AG1 flavor sampler. And you'll get to try their new sleep supplement AGZ for free, which has been a game changer for my nightly routine. That's drinkag1.comSB for $126 value in free gifts for new subscribers.

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[Doug]

Hey there, stackers. I'm foursquares, Max and guy who hates unclogging the toilet, Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Back in 1857, Joseph Gayetti probably made a killing when he smoothed out the world's problems and debuted the first commercially available toilet paper. Of course, as always, I'm sure that Gayetti was working his toilet paper magic in private when these big companies opened the door, exposing a whole new industry and made things awkward for everyone. That's why today, Gayetti is nowhere to be be seen. And instead the industry is dominated by Charmin, made by Proctor and Gamble, Quilted Northern, made by Georgia Pacific, and Scott, owned by Kimberly Clark. All huge companies. But which of these behemoths wipes the skid marks off the others? When it comes to Amazon sales, it's Kimberly Clark's Scott that wins the day. And that truly is the butt of this trivia. And now back to two guys who are wiping clean your money worries, Joe and OG.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, man, how many smoothenings?

[Doug]

Wiping might have gone a little far on that one.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I don't think we've used Scott in this house. In mom's house here.

[Doug]

No, because Scott doesn't make anything over two ply, and that's being generous.

Those are two of the thinnest plies possible.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But it is wild how now those. I mean, those are major corporations. Georgia Pacific, Kimberly Clark, Procter and Gamble fighting it out over toilet paper. Can you imagine if you're at that. Speaking of the holiday party, by the way, big thanks to Charles Duhigg, feel like, so what do you do? You're like, I'm the Charmin guy. Like, I'm on the. I'm on the Charman team.

[Doug]

Mr. Whipple, are you familiar with him? That's my uncle.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Where's the innovation, by the way, in Charmin, we got to do something new this year. What have they tried? Like, sparkly Charmin.

[Doug]

Now the spicy strip is like.

[OG]

Did you have too much salsa yesterday?

[Doug]

I make honey spicy now. Why not toilet paper?

[OG]

Do you wish you would have.

Now you can eat healthy and still feel like you had four alarm chili.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Get all the feels. Yes.

[OG]

None of the calories.

[Doug]

You're right. I mean, they've got to come up with stuff to keep advertising toilet paper. So I think, I don't know if it's charming or quilted Northern, but now the tear off strip is like a curved line instead of just a straight. Like what? How is that making my life better?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That is another holiday party one. So. So no, no, no. I'm not. I'm not just a toilet paper guy. You ever use the one with a curvy line? That is me.

[Doug]

That was me. That came out of my big brain.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Let's go to our headline.

[OG]

Hello, darlings. And now it's time for your favorite part of the show, our stacking Benjamin's headlines.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Our headline today comes to us from Market Watch. This story is by Jenna Cantino. Jenna writes about this new trend. This year, guys, over Black Friday, the big sales weren't just where Regina Conway, who comes on from Slick Deals every year, tells us about all the great sales, not just at the usual spaces like she talked about this year. You know who else was having sales? Thrift stores were having sales. Jenna writes. Haley Doyle's love for thrifting began in high school when she would take her pocket money to shop for secondhand T shirts and jeans to curate her personal style. More than a decade later, the North Carolina based artist still gets a thrill from the treasure hunt at secondhand stores. She is an eagle eye for clothing with 100 cotton on the tag or sterling silver jewelry stamped with a tiny 925 indicating the quality of material. Thrifting isn't just for fun. It's also more affordable than shopping at big box stores or the mall. I actually start looking at Christmas things in the summer to spread out the expense, she says. Times are hard and have only gotten harder. Frankly. Doyle, 28, described herself as somewhere in the middle of Gen Z millennials, groups that have fueled thrifting's growing popularity over the past several years. It turns out what all the kids are doing og is shopping at thrift stores and giving secondhand gifts to each other. I don't know if you got a hand me down from Doug. Would you be offended or would you be high fiving him going, nice job finding a cool deal on, you know, maybe a really nice driver that might need some new grip soon.

[OG]

Oh, I was thinking about clothes and I was thinking I would have to take in the waist like four inches or something, but wow, four feet.

I don't know. I don't have an opinion about it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Like if he got you the driver that you wanted, Mr. Golfer, but it had been swung a couple other times by somebody before you. Yeah. I mean, would you be like, that's great. Thank you.

[OG]

I mean, especially if it saved a bunch of money. Yeah, sure.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes.

[OG]

I mean, if it's not broken, Right.

[Doug]

Get this straight. So there's no shrink wrap on the club head. There's no price sticker on the shaft. There's some. Like, the dimple impressions are right near the hosel, the heel of the club, or there's like a couple of nicks on the top of the driver because I got underneath it. You're like, it's all good, bro.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[OG]

I mean, I wouldn't be excited by that, honestly, but if it's in nearly new condition, sure.

[Charles Duhigg]

What's the difference?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow.

[Doug]

It's not the answer I expected, Joe.

[OG]

It's like a car, right? It's like you could go buy a brand new car, or you can get one that was like the dealer demo and has 1800 miles on it, which is still pretty new in the grand scheme of Things, and save $15,000. Like, it's the same car.

[Doug]

Sure, but what does it say about in that it's a different exchange.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right.

[Doug]

That's your choice. If you're going to. You're making your own financially prudent decision to buy a used car. But when someone's gifting you something that's used, doesn't it feel a little different? Unless it's some vintage thing or hard to get or something like that.

[OG]

Ultimately just depends on what it is.

[Charles Duhigg]

Right.

[OG]

Like underwear. Probably not a big fan.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, pass.

[Doug]

I washed them. I don't know how many times they have to tell you that.

[OG]

I mean, you didn't bleach them, which clearly was needed.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It does depend on what shape it's in. I agree with that og. I mean, if it's in. If it's in really nice shape, I.

[OG]

Think you can also, like, have the conversation. Like, you know, Doug gives me a driver. I'm just using this as an example. And for those who don't know, a brand new driver is like 700.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right.

[OG]

You'd be like, what the heck, Doug? Like, holy crap. There's no. No, this is ridiculous. Right?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Like, I love you, but I married.

[OG]

Give friends $700 drivers. To which Doug would reply, no, no, no, no. You got to hear me out on this one. I found this. I was at this store. It was at the plate against Sports. The guy said it would only been used twice, and the guy said, you know, he brought it in. It was hell of a deal. And I know you said you were looking for a driver. I just thought this would be a good. You know, like, if you kind of pair that with the story because it's so obnoxiously expensive on the front end, and then go. But here's. Here's why I. Here's how I got there. I think that helps quite a bit because I wouldn't accept a driver from Doug because it's like, you know, they're like 700 bucks. Like, what? I'm like, no way. I get Doug. Like, a candle.

[Doug]

Which you did one year, and it came broken. I actually have this. This exact.

[OG]

Problem solved.

[Doug]

It's funny you picked this example, Joe, that I know just kind of came to the top of your head, but this happened to me. My brother gave me an entire set of irons back when King Cobra irons were the top of the market in the. In the 90s. For my birthday, he gave me a whole set of irons, but the pitching wedge had, like, a nick or a dent out of the. The leading edge. He claims he was managing a golf shop at the time outside of Boston, and he claims that a guy came in, threw the box back at him at the counter and said, these suck. I'm returning them. I'm getting new ones. And so he's like, I got a set of irons I can't do anything with because one of them's a little damaged. So he claims he gave them to me. I have to this day, still accused him of stealing them from the back.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Because that's what brothers do at the holidays. Exactly.

[Doug]

What brothers.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You could have found a deal or you're a thief.

[OG]

He lowjacked him, hoping that you get arrested.

[Doug]

But it did feel like, in that case, I guess you're right. It felt. It was. It would have been way over the top if he didn't have that story to back it up. I would have. I would have been like, something doesn't feel right here.

[OG]

Yeah, Like a whole set. Like, you know, like a sweater or something. I'd be like, oh, cool, thanks. Like, no, no, no. It's awesome.

[Charles Duhigg]

It's J.

[OG]

Crew. I got. But I got it for $8 at the thrift shop. I'd be, like, cool with a K. See?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And what's funny is, I think that also you wouldn't like that, but there may be people that, like, X type of sweater and would think that that's great. Like, my daughter. If you found her sweater at a thrift shop for eight bucks she would high five you. So I think it's as much about who the receiver is too.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[OG]

Ultimately do you even like. Unless you say that you bought it there, how would anybody would know?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I would come clean immediately. I would. Well, here's the reason why. Let me tell you the reason why. Because my.

We'Re using real names because.

My sister in law gives me this book about. But this is several years ago about Enron and about the whole Enron meltdown and how that whole thing in Houston actually happened.

[OG]

Turns out it was fraud.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And she goes, spoiler. She goes, I really love this book and I thought of you when I read it. Now when somebody says I love this book and I thought of you when I read it, I think they have their copy and I'm getting a different copy. And she actually was passing it off like it was a brand new book. There was one dog eared page, like page 225. And then I realized Laura didn't love this book. Laura loved this particular copy of this book and then gave it to me when she was finished. If she had said, I know you're a finance fan. So I read this already and I thought you would really like it. That was one thing. By the way, the same year she gives my father in law this VHS collection of all the James Bond movies. That looks great, right? It's, it's pretty cool. It's not in the original shriek rap, but it's pretty cool. Three minutes later she says out loud, we got a new DVD player. She's cleaning her house, giving gifts to family members and trying to pass them all off.

[OG]

See, I think that's different, like in the holiday spirit of that's a balance. Because not everybody can go drop a bunch of money on a bunch of stuff. But I would much rather have had the experience where somebody said like you said, hey, I'm done with this, I think you'd like it here. And you go, oh, cool book, right? Not under the guise of like I got you this gift to me. That's the worst part of it. It's not the fact that your father in law got the set of VHS tapes. It's the fact that it was tried to be like this grandiose gesture that wasn't. There's nothing wrong with saying, hey, you know, here's a book that I think my friend would like or I know you're into James Bond and I have no use for this anymore because we got a DVD player. But I Thought you could use it. I thought you might enjoy it. That's fine, too. All of that's great.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

If she had led with the DVD player and then, you know, I was thinking you would love this. And I looked at all the other stuff. You don't need more junk. You would like this way more. So I thought I'd give it to you.

[OG]

Yeah, like, that's a. I mean, I think the. I don't want to say sliminess because that sounds worse than I want it to be, but I think the sliminess of this is when, when you try to pass it off as something very thoughtful and new, but it's not right. There's no rule that says you have to give your friends and family new stuff like that. Don't really have to say you have to give anybody anything. We've, and we've talked about this on the show years ago. We've had several Christmases, long time ago where we were like, yeah, we're out. We just don't have it right now. It's just not. There's no budget for it. Like, I got mortgages to pay, car payments and student loans. That's my gift, is I'm paying that stuff. And still my gift to you, Joe, is I'm going to stay current on my mortgage payment so I don't have to come and live at your house. That's my gift to you.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I had a family I worked with. Russell and Deborah hired me just before the holidays when I was a planner. We sat down and there was going to be very little money for if they wanted to get the ship back on track, this could be very little money. You know what they told me when we met in January to round out the financial plan, get everything rolling. They said it was one of the best Christmases they'd ever had because they focused on each other. They focused on the time and the season. They didn't spend all their time just.

[OG]

Hunting for the consumerism out of it, which is fine too, you know, like, if you're into gift giving and that sort of thing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Sure.

[OG]

But anyways, there's a balancing act here. I don't want to come across as sounding like, oh, it's so disgusting to have used things. Because that's not true.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No. When I read this, I would rather.

[OG]

Repurpose a lot of stuff that's repurposable. And when people say, you know, it's funny because I think some of it is the A term and it's a Gen X term of like when you say thrift store. I think that people in our generation and older think that's where poor people go. And now it's more. I mean, like, they have apps for it, like Poshmark.

[Doug]

Oh, yeah.

[OG]

Oh, you don't like that $8,000 dress anymore? Someone will buy it from you for four. What a bargain. When that happens, we're like, look at how smart I am. When it's like, I have this $500 pair of jeans that I got for 250 on Poshmark. I'm so amazing. And then on both sides of that transaction, right? It's like, I'm so amazing. I got rid of this and I got money and I'm so amazing. I picked up these great jeans for 250 bucks that I would buy at needless markup for 500. It's like. But all of a sudden you. You drop that down to a set of pots and pans at your local shop, and it's like, oh, I wouldn't do it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Doug]

I mean, one of the. One of the many points of gift giving, certainly not necessarily the point of the holidays, it's a whole different topic. But one of the points of the gift giving is to show that you really love and care and know about that person and made a choice to get them something that they would value and showed some depth to your relationship. And if you just hand them a wire whisk out of the kitchen drawer because you happen to get a new stand mixer, so you gave them the old wire whisk that you're done with. Don't ask me why I use this example, then you know that it actually devalues the relationship. That person is going to be like, really? This is all the effort you put into. Into this interaction, into this exchange. So you got to kind of pick your spots. Like you said, Autumn would love the fact that you found an $8. A great sweater at some discounted price, she would value that. Maybe you got to wrap that up with a little story so that she would appreciate it and realize why there's no tags on it. But you got to pick your spots, I think, and your recipients don't pass.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It off as something to start. You know, Karen Holland, the amazing woman we help as stackers, we all helped raise money for during the month of [e-mail] Karen, when she was on the show at the beginning of November, talked about how the world doesn't need more stuff in landfills and nobody wants to give a gift that people don't appreciate. So if you would appreciate something that I got you that might be used because I can afford it while it's used versus buying something new that's just going to sit or be trash or you know, nobody wants that. Listen to the stuff that is hot at thrift stores because I think most of these I would love used well in again in good condition. The hot stuff at thrift stores this season. Vinyl Records. My son gave me a record player and I'm now upgrading to a nicer stereo to play vinyl. There's something really fun about going back into record stores now or going to garage sales and looking through these old, you know, some of these old records and just hearing that crackle. So vinyl records, classic books, nostalgic toys, funky mugs, serving dishes and high end cookware. If you can get a high end piece of cookware that's used and you're somebody that loves being in the kitchen, those are all things I think a lot of us would love you Sports equipment could be an affordable option for kids asking for new gear this Christmas. The average amount family spend on child's Primary sport was $1,016 in 2024 according to the Aspen Institute's Project Play 46 increase by the way, since 2019. Cost of kids sports going through the roof I think. Oh gee, you've seen that firsthand.

[Doug]

His kids don't even play the expensive sports.

[OG]

I would disagree.

My daughter played in a whole day softball tournament this weekend and new uniforms for the tournament. She had to have a fancy bat that she doesn't swing. Oh that's not fair. She does swing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

She tries some things from this piece and I will link to it on our show. Notes these are some tips from Top Thrifters. Give items a good once over for scratches, wear and tear, rips and stains. Check clothing material on tags. Items made by of natural fibers like cotton, silk, linen and wool. More sustainable, better quality than those made with plastic based fabrics. Look for items with original tags implying they haven't been used or worn. Check jewelry for quality stamps. Look for a tiny 925 stamp to confirm a piece of sterling silver or 10k, 14k or 18k to confirm the quality. Gold. Although I've seen that faked. Wash any cookware before you gift it. That's a big one. Look through the racks for Nike, Adidas, luluman, Alo, True religion or Levi's to get discount. What's the true religion?

[OG]

Nope, the one that starts with an.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

L. Lulu man.

Lulu man.

[Doug]

You made it sound like a guy wearing a bowling shirt like Lou Lemon Lou Lamon.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Isn't it Lulu man. I thought it's a guy that's not a guy. I thought, I thought Lou Ludoman.

[OG]

Just let's, let's just abbreviate Lulu.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

A pair of Lulu's True Religion or Levi's to get a steep discount. Will link to this in our show notes. It's Daki benjamin.com and yeah, go thrifting.

[Doug]

This year I'm going to pop some tags. Only got $20 in my pocket.

[OG]

Such a good about stealing clothes.

[Doug]

No, it's not the shirt. The song's literally called Thrift Shop. It's about how people are just stupid for buying all this stuff new. Gotcha Joe. I know it's getting cold out but I still like going out on the back porch because that's where I get to have my beverages. Can we pop out there for a second?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, let's do it. We've got two things going on, Doug. First one is the success sessions. Start again in January. Those are 10 sessions with a small group, 30 or less where I take you through 1090 minute sessions of my book Stacked. We use that as the teaching tool and you put your financial plan together from the beginning to the end. It's a small group. It is a great way to learn the basics of personal finance. You learn from each other, you learn from me. We had a great time the last two years doing it. You can see the reviews all over the place. Gertrude is putting the reviews up of past years. The average person who goes into this on a scale of one to ten thinks they were a four and a half before the success sessions with their money and they were an eight and a half when they came out. So that's the average score of all of our participants. So it's stackingbenjamins.com success to get in on those. You want to do it before it fills up because there's only going to be 30 people. Nice gift for yourself for the new year. Now the last thing, one of the last things we talk about is hiring good help. And if your goal, you already know your money, you know that you need more help, you need to do better in 2026 than you did in 2025 with your money. OG and his team, Anna and the team are taking on new clients. So head to stacky benjamin.com OG that's where you find their calendar. And you know what, just get on it if you know that having a coach. So two cool things. Stacky benjamin.com/og or if you want to dive in yourself. Stacky benjamin.com success coming up on Wednesday. Speaking of gifting, speaking of gifting secondhand, I think a lot of people are like coach handbag, maybe by that secondhand. Lou Frankfurt was the longtime CEO of Coach and he joins us for lessons from how he ran Coach and lessons about his career. This is a guy that didn't start off in fashion at all. He was running kids programming for New York City when he changed careers completely. Can you change careers? Obviously Lou thinks you can. How do you navigate this brand new world of fashion? How do you open up the first. Yeah, how do you open up the first Coach stores? And he's going to talk about all those things and more. It's fascinating. We're doing a case study of the brand coach with Lou Frankfurt on Wednesday.

[OG]

Sweet.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But today we're doing a case study on this episode with Doug, who's listed off I see in front of him on the notepad his top three things that should be on your to do list.

[Doug]

Sure did, Joe. Here's what everybody should have learned. First, take some advice from Charles Duhigg. Invite people to have a deeper conversation about them, not you. Listening beats telling what you think is the world's best story all day long. Second, that re gift. If it's something the receiver will like, who cares if it's gently used, it costs less, keeps the item out of a landfill and will surely be loved by the recipient. So save yourself some money. But the big lesson.

If you're saving money, don't do it by buying the cheap toilet paper. Just don't. Just don't. There are other places to economize, people. Be kind to your behind.

Thanks to Charles Duhigg for helping us navigate the holiday party season. You'll find his book Super Communicators. Wherever you find your favorite books, we'll also share a link on your favorite website for financial knowledge. That's us. It's our website. Talking about us. StackingBenjamins.com this show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, copyright2025 and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This.

[Doug]

This show is for entertainment Purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin show.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Sam.

Welcome to the after show. This is the part of the show new stackers that doesn't exist. What happens in the after show stays in the after show. We don't talk about it.

[OG]

Clean this place up.

[Doug]

Except we're about to talk about it and we're publishing it on the Internet. So does it really stay here?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It stays among friends. The friends only. The people on the Internet that can find this are the people that get it.

[OG]

The lazy people who haven't hit stop yet.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But OG we get to find out who listens to us in the shower. OG you were saying before we hit record today that you got.

[OG]

I have a great neighbor. Do you guys have good neighbors? Doug, you've.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You.

[OG]

You don't like your neighbor, do you?

[Doug]

I really like one of our neighbors. And the other one not so much.

[OG]

Like Mike or something. He's a total ass, right? Is that what you said?

[Doug]

Yeah. He's probably not listening to this. Mike is.

We're just gonna out him fairly. We are using his real name too. Absolutely fairly. Fairly mercurial. Can be super nice guy. And then out of nowhere, he's just at, you know, Carolina reaper hot.

[OG]

Your leaves fell on my side of the fence. Yeah, I'm gonna sue you.

[Doug]

So my neighbor Mike and I were both on vacation for the same week in the summertime, and I got home maybe a day ahead of him, and he. This huge tree between our two houses that died in that week. Every leaf was on the ground. Middle of the summer, trees bare. I mean, this is a huge tree, 50ft tall. When he comes home, I'm like, yeah, Mike, check it out. It's wild that your tree died. He goes, weird.

[OG]

Your tree's dead?

[Doug]

Yeah. He goes, what'd you do about it? Did you call anybody? You getting it taken care of? Why the hell would I do that? Your tree. Well, you saw it, should have done something about it. Then he just got hot. What are you talking about? So, yes, that's my experience with one of my neighbors. What is your experience with your neighbor?

[OG]

That would be different. I mean, it'd be different to say if you're on good terms, because actually we had some issues with our neighbor. Not issues in sense of like, we don't like each other, but issues. More like, hey, I noticed in this last storm this thing happened to your fence. Are you home? Do you need me to go over there and like, oh, that's nice. Zip tie it to, like, so it doesn't get worse or whatever type deal. Anyways, he just texted me this morning, are you at home? And usually that means that he can see something on my side of the house that I don't usually walk on and there's something effed up.

[Doug]

Like your bare butt.

[OG]

No, I don't tend to moon my neighbor unless he pays extra. But it's more like stuff like, you.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Know, he can subscribe to the channel like everybody else.

[OG]

Yes, exactly. No freebies in my world. It's usually something like, hey, there's a leak. I can see a leak. You know, there's weird stuff coming out of your attic or something, you know, and that's helpful, right? Like, oh, you're missing a shingle. You know, I can see it from my. My side of the fence, basically. And so I just said, yeah, I'm at home. What did I screw up this time? Except for maybe my wife leaving Mexican food outside. So the animals got into it last night. Ha ha, ha ha.

And then he texts back, are you at home? And now immediately, I know that his phone has been compromised.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, no.

[OG]

And so I just wrote, are you at home? And I think I'm going to keep doing this back and forth until somebody gets a picture of somebody's nipple. I'm not sure.

[Doug]

That's always a game changer. That's when the conversation turns big old hairy nipple.

[OG]

And I'm going to use. Not mine or his. I'm using Doug's nipple, obviously, because it's public and it's in the domain.

[Doug]

I was going to say, you have dozens of pictures of that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I got a similar text from a friend of the show who was just on recently. Andy Hill. Going to be back on in January, by the way, talking about owning your time.

[Doug]

Nicest guy in podcasting.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, totally nicest guy. And he writes to me and says, hey, I have a new WhatsApp group that I'd like you to join, and we're going to talk personal finance and all kinds of stuff. And I just wrote back to him, and I go, I go, dude, I'm not on. I'm not on WhatsApp. I'd love to help. Hope you're doing well. And then he writes back and goes, well, it's a. It's a brand new group. Here's the URL. And I went, oh, God. And I literally wrote, oh, no. And I wrote, I nearly fell for it.

Nice job spoofing the nicest man in podcasting.

[OG]

He's like, no, no, seriously, I'm starting a new WhatsApp group.

[Doug]

Well, what's wild, I mean, that. That took some social engineering. Wasn't just a bot who spoofed a phone number, which is more than likely what happened in OG's case. They actually know that Andy's in personal finance and podcasting and scripted something along those lines.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Doug]

Unbelievable.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No, it was. It was.

[Doug]

They're working too hard.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It was a really, really good one. And I almost fell for it. And I went, oh. And then I said, hope you don't get away with this. And I'm telling Andy right now, as if. Tell Mom.

[Doug]

I'm telling.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm telling Bob.

[Doug]

You know, I saw a commercial watching football a couple of weekends ago for Cash App, and I thought, if I ever get a request for WhatsApp or Cash App, I immediately think you're a scammer. Like, there's no way I'm ever using either one of those two.

[OG]

I don't use WhatsApp, but I've used every payment system there is. And it's because other people use them different. You know, you're like, whatever. It's super easy to set up, which is what their goal is. One time my kid asked me, he's like, hey, can you send me, you know, whatever, 20 bucks on cash App? Because I got a how they do the ticket to the thing or whatever. And I was like, I'm not sure I have that. I opened it up. I had, like, 30 bucks in the Cash app because somebody had paid that way some time ago. And I'm like, I was thinking about that in the context of, like, estate planning, right? Like, how are you going to be able to keep track of all of your digital payment locations in addition to normal bank accounts and all that? You think it's tough finding, like, a stock certificate from, you know, 1987 in Grandpa's drawer?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Who's got the Zelle password?

[OG]

Wait until you need the Face ID to unlock Cash app in 2028 or 2038 or something.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is that the 2025 equivalent of finding 10 bucks in your jeans? Is this the new one I opened up Cash app, and there's 30 bucks there.

[OG]

I don't use any of those things ever. I never use PayPal, Venmo Cash app. I mean, I have them because, you know, people will send money, and that's just a convenient thing. I hate using Zelle because I don't like anything attached to my bank account if I can avoid it. We have this golf trip that we go on every year with a bunch of firm owners, and we get a little frisky with our betting and different things. There's a couple pops, and people will bet, and the easiest way to do it is via Venmo. And literally, that's the only time I use it religiously, is through that week. We're like, here's your $10. Here's my $10. Here's your $10. Here's My $10. We're just venmoing back and forth. And then a year goes by, and I open up Venmo to see how I'm gonna pay my bets off, and I'm like, oh, crap. I got 500 bucks in here. Awesome.

It's very cool.