How to Lead (and Evaluate Good Leadership) with David Gergen (SB1733)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: How to Lead (and Evaluate Good Leadership) with David Gergen (SB1733)

Release Date: September 10, 2025
Featured Guest: David Gergen – Former White House advisor to four presidents, Harvard professor, author of Hearts Touched with Fire: How Great Leaders Are Made

---

Episode Overview

In this special episode, Joe Saul-Sehy and OG welcome legendary White House advisor David Gergen to discuss the essence of leadership—what it means, how it's cultivated, and why evaluating leaders is crucial both in life and as an investor. Gergen, who served under Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Clinton, shares stories from his remarkable career and offers actionable guidance for aspiring leaders, with particular emphasis on empowering the next generation. The conversation stays away from politics and focuses instead on universal leadership principles.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Focus on Young People?

[26:49]

• Gergen’s book centers on youth because, as he says, “they are a great hope for the future… [the] current generation who's in power is [not] capable of overcoming the crises we've been seeing.”
• He describes himself as a “short-term pessimist, long-term optimist,” believing that the next generation provides “glimmers of hope” despite current difficulties.

“The optimism comes from the quality of young people that I think are coming through the system who represent new hope and... fresh vision.” – David Gergen [27:33]

2. Gergen’s Early Struggles & the “True North”

[28:04]

• He talks candidly about his early aimlessness and setbacks—such as failed ambitions to be a pitcher (including a wild throw that broke a second-floor window!).
• Shares that finding true direction is often about “whittling it down”—learning what you don’t want to do.

3. Leadership Lessons from the Navy

[29:50]

• Serving in the Navy exposed Gergen to people from diverse backgrounds, teaching humility (“Within days after I left law school with honors, I was given a toothbrush and I was cleaning latrines”) and the importance of taking responsibility for others.
• Emphasizes that leadership is “not about glory” but about “making a difference” wherever you are.

“Leadership and good works can come from people who didn't go to a fancy school... the day will come when you're called on, if you're ready, if you're up to it, you can make a real difference in life by taking over a leadership position.” – David Gergen [31:19]

4. The Tarnished View of Public Leadership

[31:41]

• Gergen laments that kids today don’t aspire to the presidency due to cynicism and exhaustion with politics.
• Asserts the need for leaders to restore hope and “bring fresh energy and vision.”

“…If we give up hope, we're going to be lost.” – David Gergen [32:57]

5. Role Models: RBG, John McCain, John Lewis

[33:04]

• Gergen highlights diverse leaders to show leadership isn’t monopolized by one demographic.
• Discusses progress in representation across gender and race.

6. How to Become a Leader: “Pay Your Dues”

[34:33]

• Stresses starting early in community service, even in small local roles.
• Story of Eric Lesser: After Harvard, instead of a high-powered career, he ran for state legislature, earned respect, then advanced.
• Recommends avoiding rushing into high office: “Don’t feel you gotta run for Congress 10 minutes after you leave college.”
• Experience, humility, and building trust are paramount.

7. The Power of Bridging Divides

[36:48]

• Gergen recounts bringing people together even amid sharp divisions:
  Describes attending a dangerous KKK rally in North Carolina as a young man, realizing later that approaching others as “exhibits” is reckless; real change comes from understanding different perspectives.

“We treated people at the KKK like animals in a zoo... we started them up. It was like waving a red flag in front of a bull and they came charging us.” – David Gergen [41:34]

• Applies lesson to today’s fractured society: “We look at the other side as if we're animals at the zoo and we bait each other.” [41:51]

8. White House Stories: Humor, Humanity, and Leadership

[42:39]

• Shares two memorable stories from the Reagan White House:
  • The Dry Erase Marker Incident: During a nationally televised address, a missing marker cap meant Reagan couldn’t draw a vital chart line. Thanks to a quick-thinking aide, a replacement was sneaked in, and Reagan’s quick wit saved the moment.
  • Reagan's Birthday Prank: A massive (and unwanted) portrait is gifted to Chief of Staff Jim Baker, with all parties playing along in good fun, showcasing the importance of humor and camaraderie at the highest levels.

“If you’re so uptight you can’t laugh at yourself, you better find a different line of work than trying to be a public leader.” – David Gergen [43:21]

9. On Student Loan Forgiveness and Service

[50:26]

• Gergen supports targeted forgiveness for students who were defrauded (e.g., Corinthian colleges) but prefers a broader approach where public service—such as teaching, community work, or national service—is exchanged for debt relief.

“There ought not to be something for nothing kind of society. I think pride comes when you earn it. Pride comes when you pay your dues.” – David Gergen [53:36]

10. Leadership as a Legacy and a Call to Action

[49:32, 53:36]

• Gergen insists it’s time for older generations to “step back” and “help the next generation,” passing the torch while sharing lessons learned.
• The episode (and Gergen’s book) are positioned as roadmaps for young, diverse leaders to rise.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hope:
  “If we give up hope, we're going to be lost.” – David Gergen [32:57]
• On Service:
  “It’s very, very important early on to begin paying your dues. We are privileged to live in this country… begin asking young people to do some service early in their communities.” – David Gergen [34:33]
• On Bridging Divides:
  “It would be healthy for a lot of our current students to go into the Bronx and go into Harlem and see what life is like... It's really, really important, I think, to listen to the voices and try to understand the experiences of those who've been less fortunate.” – David Gergen [42:00]
• On Leadership Qualities:
  “People don’t recognize… that someone who is comfortable enough to tell self-deprecating stories is pretty well-anchored as a person… Humor helps.” – David Gergen [43:21]
• On Civic Engagement & Student Loans:
  “Give us a year back in your community and we'll take a year off your college debt… You can work your way out of this in something that will serve your community as opposed to just serving your instant needs.” – David Gergen [53:02]
• On Passing the Torch:
  “It's time for us… to step back… We need to pass the torch to the next generation. And I think that they're a very promising generation.” – David Gergen [49:32]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Context: [01:10]–[06:53]
• David Gergen Interview Begins: [26:18]
• Focus on the Next Generation: [26:49]
• Leadership Lessons from the Navy: [29:50]
• Restoring Hope in Leadership: [31:41]
• Learning from Past Leaders: [33:04]
• How to Start Leading – Pay Your Dues: [34:33]
• Bridging Divides – KKK Rally Story: [37:35]
• Humor in the White House: [43:09]
• Student Loan Relief & Service: [50:26]
• Passing the Torch: [49:32]
• Closing Thoughts & Book Plug: [54:18]

---

Tone, Takeaways & Final Thoughts

The conversation was warm, self-effacing, and filled with gentle humor—Gergen’s humility and Joe’s signature lightly irreverent style combined for a lively, insightful dialogue. The hosts consistently kept the focus away from partisanship, underlining the universality of Gergen’s leadership lessons.

Key Takeaways:

• Leadership is cultivated through humility, service, curiosity, and learning from setbacks.
• Young people should be empowered to lead, but must also “pay their dues” and build experience.
• Humor, empathy, and bridging divides are essential qualities in any leader.
• True leadership can—and must—happen at every level: local, national, and personal.
• Even in times of cynicism and crisis, hope and renewal are possible with fresh vision and collective service.

Recommended Reading:
Hearts Touched with Fire: How Great Leaders Are Made by David Gergen

---

For those seeking actionable wisdom on leadership from one of America’s most experienced advisors, this episode is a masterclass—engaging, accessible, and full of practical guidance for both seasoned and aspiring leaders.

Transcript

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Tapping into your home's equity shouldn't come at a high price. That's why we offer our home equity loan options. We cover 100% of closing costs, which could save you hundreds. And with our fixed equity loans, you can consolidate debt and lower your monthly payments. Plus, we have no application origination fees. So if you want to get more out of your home base, learn more@navy federal.org Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the Mission this episode brought to you by Progressive Insurance do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there, hoping it all works out well? With the name your price tool from Progressive, you can get a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you want to.

[Doug]

Pay for car insurance and they'll help.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Find you options within your budget. Try it [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Doug]

This just in.

[David Gergen]

Breaking news from Stacking Benjamin Recently, a.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Man who was not only a Harvard professor speechwriter, but he also served four presidents died. David Gergen served Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. Because he served presidents in both parties, you can imagine how people thought about him. He was called left by right wing people and right by left wingers like it's some kind of football game. But I'll tell you, in my view, he was incredibly focused on one thing, building leaders and serving his country. So Joe, wait a minute. Isn't this greatest hits week? Politics on Stacking Benjamins not at all. The reason I wanted so badly to talk to David was because of this topic we're going to share with you today. Leadership. Being good at your job means leadership. Either knowing which leaders to follow or stepping up and leading yourself as an investor. So you'll hear next week from David Gardner, creator of the Motley Fool. Your job is to be able to evaluate leaders and and whether you should put your money in the concern that they're working. And as I mentioned, at the top two, David died recently and even though I spent only about 90 minutes of my life with him, I was much more deeply saddened than I thought that I would have been. He was a guy who I think gets it and you'll hear why on this episode. He also was a man who was incredibly generous. Here's a little quick behind the scenes story about the making of this one. So we first met, I was on my book tour and I set up My recording equipment. I'm in this hotel way up high, by the way, in downtown Chicago. We had an event that night, and when he met me online for our meeting, he was using an iPad, which made me go grown because our recording software doesn't support an iPad. So thinking quickly, and I have this nationally recognized great guest on. I instead said, you know what, David? Let's. Let's move over to Zoom. And I would use then my backup recorder. So I use Zoom infrequently, and I didn't record it on Zoom itself. I just used the system that I normally use as a backup. And later that week, I discovered that even after having done a thousand episodes and never had a problem, the one time I have this man who served four US Presidents on, and I don't run a backup, the file was corrupt. So I've got this. I've got this big decision. So I reach out and I'm like, yeah, we're cooked. In fact, it's funny, when I reached out, I reached out through one of his people, like, yeah, he doesn't have a lot of time. I'm sure he's not going to do it. And then, like, 45 minutes later, the woman writes back and goes, unbelievably, he said that he would do it and he'd be happy to. Although when he did show up to do it again, as you can believe, he was more than a little annoyed at first. And I'm laughing because we recorded again, and I'm so apologetic. I thank him profusely for doing it again, and I apologize for, like, the 10th time. And then David said, and this is why I think David was liked by so many people. He said, I can't do his voice. But no, Joe, I actually think we got it better the second time. And you know what? He wasn't wrong. You'll hear that today. A great discussion on leadership. And now you also know it was because he was so kind that we can actually play an episode for you at all. By the way, young Stackers, remember this takeaway. Mistakes happen, but don't let them happen twice. I now have backup for my backup in the case that we have to switch recording methods. And now I'm very happy to present to you our episode with the amazing late David Gergen, a man I would have loved to have known even better.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and I'm here with Big Brother watching you because on this day in 1949, the book 1984 was published. You know how sometimes the movie isn't as good as the book? In this case, real life wasn't as good as the book. Today we welcome a man who's been watching the world change from the highest levels as a White House advisor to four presidents, David Gergen. In our headlines, a weather report. The CEO of JPMorgan Chase says there's a hurricane coming. We'll share what he's referring to. Plus we'll throw out the Haven lifeline to Ron with a question about whether you should try goal based investing or just throw as much money in as you can. And then, because according to 1984, ignorance is strength, I'll swoop in with my trivia. And now two guys who know that 2, 2, 4. But investing makes it so much more. It's Joe Saul.

[OG]

See?

[Doug]

Hi. And I screwed it up.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Like the.

[Doug]

First time I've ever done that.

[OG]

I'll leave that one in Joe. And I screwed that up.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug]

And oh, geez here, too. All right, you guys talk now.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

We'll fix it in post, as they say. Hey, everybody, welcome to another perfectly executed beginning of the Stacky Benjamin Show. I'm Joe Salsi. I Average Joe Money on Twitter, Feeling a bajillion percent. And across the card table from me, a guy who's a little far across the card table today because he doesn't want to get what I got. Mr. OG, how are you, man?

[David Gergen]

Yes.

[OG]

Although I'm not, I'm not as scared of you. I'm not as scared you can carry on with your life.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That is very nice of you. Feeling a little bit under the weather.

[OG]

Today, but we're also breathe that way.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Absolutely. But we're going to push through today. We've got a great show for you, one we've been looking forward to for a long time because David Gergen, who served in four White Houses, OG Joins us. And not to talk politics because this is a guy who's been assailed from the left, assailed from the right, because depending on which president he's serving, he always gets it from the other side. We're not going to talk politics at all. We're talking leadership and the need for more leadership and how to be a good leader. So David Gergen coming down to the basement. But first, we've got some fantastic headlines. But even before that, this episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. With rising housing prices and steeper mortgage rates, we know homeownership may seem too expensive to be achievable, but that's why we offer a Home Buyer's Choice Loan that can open the door to affordable homeownership. Our Home Buyer's Choice Loan has no down payment options available, which means you don't need to wait years to save money. And with our no refi rate drop, you might be able to lower your rate in the future without refinancing. Plus, while most lenders require borrowers to purchase private mortgage insurance unless they can make a 20% down payment, we don't require PMI. Finally, we offer fixed payments so your monthly payment will always be the same. So if you're looking for your first home or your next home, you can open the door with a Navy Federal Homebuyer's Choice loan. Visit navy federal.org to learn how you can achieve homeownership. Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission. Terms and conditions apply. Equal housing lender loans subject to approval and eligibility requirements. Learn more@navy federal.org Thursday Night Football is.

[David Gergen]

Back and it's only on Prime Video. This week, the Washington Commanders take on the Green Bay Packers. With both teams determined to prove their worth, this should be a terrific game. The Washington Commanders going up to Green Bay trying to get a win up there. Jordan Love, the quarterback for the Green Bay packers, had a subpar year last year. Can he shake it off and show his true talent against the Washington Commanders? Coverage begins at 7pm Eastern with football's best party, TNF tonight presented by Verizon. Not a Prime member, Not a problem. Simply sign up for a 30 day free trial. It's the Commanders and the packers Thursday at 7pm Eastern only on Prime Video. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

All right, David Gergen waiting upstairs with mom. So let's get a move on.

[David Gergen]

Hello darlings. And now it's time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamin's headlines.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Want to begin with a weather report? Steve, you got any weather report music? Any like exciting like breaking news music? You see how CNN just finally said that they're going to calm down with the breaking news all the time thing. You know why they're going to calm down? Because we're going to speed it up.

[OG]

Because it causes everyone to panic all the time and media companies are now finally doing the right thing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I feel like their losses are gained. So we're going to, we're going to make everything breaking news now. Everything's going to be breaking news on the Stack of Benjamin Show.

[OG]

Excellent.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah this is the key to winning. Right? Isn't that. We've been talking about that the last couple of weeks. It's all about the headline. It's all about the headline. And today we're going to bring you the weather Report, some breaking news when it comes to weather, and that is we have a CEO of a major company announcing some weather headed for the United States, says there's a hurricane coming. Oh, gee, that sounds pretty bad. But you won't hear that on the Weather Channel. You'll hear it on Forbes. This piece written by Jack Kelly. Jamie Dimon, CEO of JPMorgan Chase, says there's a hurricane coming our way. One of the most respected Wall street leaders gave a stern warning to investors. The piece reads he advised people to prepare for an incoming economic hurricane at an investor conference last Wednesday. So time for us now, oh, gee, I think to batten down the hatches because the hurricane's on the way.

[OG]

Do you think maybe Jamie Dimon's a little upset because the compensation committee vetoed his executive comp pay and so he's going to try to crater the economy?

[Doug]

His comments, and then he can say, look, I was right. I'm worth the money because I can see the future.

[OG]

I am Nostradamus, right? Yeah, yeah. It wasn't but just three weeks ago when he was using some other sort of weather analogy. It's a EF1 tornado coming and now it's a Mach 3 hurricane or whatever the hell they're called. You know, I don't, I don't know. It's rather irritating when, when a public figure, a major CEO, pretends like he has some sort of answer that only he has.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You know, statistically and obviously not trying to present the future because we don't have a crystal ball, but statistically, it would seem to argue that we're probably closer to the end than the beginning. Don't you think?

[OG]

Well, from a timing standpoint, you know, if you look at the market as a, it goes up and then it goes down and it goes back up again and you're kind of even money. Like, where are those two peaks? If you think about it like a roller coaster ride, that peak to peak time period is about 30 months on average. And that assumes that we have a bear market and we don't even have it yet. We're barely at the average. The -14 number according to the averages is kind of sort of a normal year. We're just slightly beyond that. So we're just slightly beyond the average inner year decline. So I don't think anybody has anything to worry about. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This piece obviously worries a little more than you do and for reasons that we've talked about before, clearly. It's always more fun to talk about doom and gloom for these media outlets, by the way, because it gets tons of clicks. But the writer says this isn't what you want to hear from an experienced, sober, serious minded executive who've seen his fair share of booms and busts over the many decades working in banking and finance. The causes of concern include the Federal Reserve bank and the government discontinuing financial stimulus program started during the pandemic to keep the economy afloat. Instead, the Fed will enact a quantitative.

[OG]

Tightening program, all of which is already priced into stocks.

[Doug]

He wasn't breaking any news there.

[OG]

Yeah, and if you assume that the, that all the stimulus money has already been all consumed or saved, which I think it has been, you've either saved all that money or you've consumed all of that money. Nobody's still sitting, you know, nobody's waiting to spend their stimulus money. You know what I mean? You either decided to use it to purchase stuff or you've decided to invest it. And the fact that that faucet is shutting off or has been shut off, the economy is already correcting for that. That's not, that's not new.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

A second piece here though seems to verify what Dimon's concerns are. This is from the Wall Street Journal and is written by Tim Higgins. Elon Musk says Tesla plans to cut 10% of its salary workforce amid concerns about the global economy. He informed workers about his headcount reduction. Of course in another memo last week said report back to work peeps. So we got not just Jamie Dimon talking about hurricane coming, we've got Elon Musk going, you know what, I'm not feeling so good, og. I wouldn't blame the average investor out there going, I've got these two big names telling me that there's stuff going down the road, coming down the road. One says it in investor meeting, the other one doesn't say so much as lives what he's talking about by cutting his workforce. What are we to believe?

[OG]

Was Tesla a proxy for the US economy? I mean, they have yet to be profitable, right? So or barely are. I certainly don't think that they've made any money selling cars.

[Doug]

It's not on their cars. They're profitable, but not in their cars. And there's two angles to Musk's statement. It's funny we bring him up because I was going to say when we were talking about Dimon that I've always viewed Jamie Dimon as sort of the Elon Musk of the financial industry. He sort of makes the big splash with a lot of big statements. He's been doing that as long as I've known him. It's the only reason I know him. I couldn't tell you who the CEOs are of a lot of the other firms because they're not as mouthy as Jamie Dimon is. And now here we are talking about Elon Musk. And the other angle on his wasn't just. I mean, some people viewed that statement that he wanted to pull everybody back into the office. You were not going to be allowed to work remotely. Some people view that as really just a ploy to try to weed out his workforce. He wanted people to resign because he was looking to reduce the workforce by 10%. But his overt statements out loud and other people really agreed with this is it is tough if you're a product based company, especially a retail product based company. It is difficult to to create new products remotely when you're not together. I mean, there is a lot of value to people being together in the same room creating products. And he didn't wait long enough if his goal was, hey, I'm worried about the economy, I think it's dropping and so I need to reduce my workforce. If he was trying to do that by forcing people to resign because they didn't want to come back into the office, you don't make that statement and then cut your workforce three days later. You make that statement and you wait about six months for people to find new jobs. So I'm not sure if that's really what he was going after was an economic based decision.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You know though, if I'm an investor, does it matter to me if he means it to be an economic statement or not? Like, if I see these people, I mean, my job isn't to have people spoon feed me what's coming up. My job is to kind of parse the tea leaves. And so if I look at these two people and they agree, even though they may be talking about slightly different things, I think it points to two people that think the economy might not be going the way that we think it's going to be going.

[OG]

Okay, so what? All the other economic data does not support anything that either of these two people are talking about. Unemployment, super low interest rates, while they're higher are still Relatively low in the grand scheme of things. Wages are rising, people are paying off debt, house prices are still going up. There's nothing that says that the economy as a whole is in this recession, you know, that it's even headed toward it. That doesn't mean it's not going to happen. But the other part of that is, who cares? What does that have to do with anything from an investing standpoint or a financial planning standpoint?

[Doug]

That's what I thought you were going to say when you said who cares? It was like, we don't care. Right. We're not investing on boom or bust. We have a plan and we're just trudging on.

[David Gergen]

Yeah.

[OG]

Use a different. A different.

[Doug]

We're marching on regardless.

[OG]

Marching on there.

[Doug]

Pressing on regardless.

[OG]

Sounds great. Trudging on. Sounds like I'm just trudging.

[Doug]

Slogging through the mud.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think there is a way. I agree, obviously, oh, gee. With what you're saying, but I also think there is some truth, and I think it's wise to be wary. I think being wary at all times. When the market's up, when the market's down is a fine emotion to have when it comes to your portfolio. And I think that thinking that there may be a hurricane coming leads you to preparedness. Right? I mean, in the fall, we always have Steve from UL Labs on talking about your family's fire plan and what everybody should do. I think having an order of operations for the next time this happens, whether we're coming out of it or this goes deeper, I think is a great thing to have. So while I agree with you on looking at these with some degree of skepticism and saying, what does it mean to me? I think what it would mean to me if I read Jamin Dimon says there's a hurricane coming. My response should not be, oh, my God, there's a hurricane coming. Let's all sell everything. It's, what is my hurricane preparedness strategy?

[OG]

Okay, I can get behind that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So then regardless of what anybody says, predicting the future, I don't have to worry about it. I'm like, you know what? I am future proofed. My portfolio is going to do nothing. No matter what. I'm going to make sure because I leave all my money under my mattress. So no matter what happens, jam it in there. Yes. Not a good strategy, people. Actually the worst strategy. But I think having that investment policy statement is a key when you're reading this stuff.

[OG]

Oh, and looky here. Looks like Morning Brew is pretty quick to copy our stuff.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What are you talking about?

[OG]

Well, it's an article right here about Jamie Dimon and Elon Musk and how they're both crying about the economy. And it says, but these doomsday predictions have yet to show up in the data. They say it's so much more succinct than I do.

[Doug]

That's a shock.

[OG]

God darn it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's funny. I'm just, I'm opening this now. Who's right about the recession? CEOs of the data. Yeah. Who's right? Is the data right?

[OG]

How funny is that?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. Good stuff.

[Doug]

I don't actually, I mean, to pat you on the back, even though you didn't say it as succinctly, you kind of nailed it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

OG thank you.

[Doug]

I mean, they, like, listened, and then they quickly sent this, this email, this daily email out because they just kind of took what you said and used.

[OG]

Fewer words, paraphrased it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Coming up next is a gentleman who really, for many people, needs no introduction because he's devoted more than half a century to public service. David Gergen came off a stint in the Navy. We'll ask him about leadership and his time in the Navy. He served as a White house advisor to four U.S. presidents. And different than most advisors, he has served members of both political parties. Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. We'll ask him about some of those presidents and those leadership figures. He, of course, has been a political commentator just about everywhere that you look. And, Doug, you've been going through old episodes of the West Wing and noticed that he even was an advisor to making that iconic series.

[Doug]

Yeah, he shows up all the time in the credits of the West Wing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So David Gergen talking, not politics, talking leadership, coming up next. But before that, I think, Doug, we're going to talk about the future that never was.

[Doug]

Maybe that's right, Joe. I love that we're talking about the anniversary of the book. 1984. 1984. My mullet swaying in the wind. Neon green fanny pack strapped on tight as I cruise to the mall in my Pontiac Firebird that was such a bitching car. My girlfriend's shoulder pads bouncing up and down as she sings along to win Doves cross. Ah, the memories. But, you know, it wasn't all good that year. I mean, not as bad as the book made it sound. That year, an antitrust suit broke up one of America's biggest companies into seven different ones. So which company was it? I'll be back with the answer after I rewind this Madonna cassette.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Huge Savings on Dell AI PCs are here, and it's a big deal. Why? Because Dell AI PCs with Intel Core Ultra processors are newly designed to help you do more faster. It's pretty amazing what they can do in a day's work. They can generate code, edit images, multitask without lag, draft emails, summarize documents, create live translations. They can even extend your battery life so you never have to worry about forgetting your charger. It's like having a personal assistant built right into your PC to cover the menial tasks so you can focus on what matters. That's the power of Dell AI. With intel inside with deals on Dell AI PCs like the Dell 16 plus, starting at $749.99, it's the perfect time to refresh your tech and take back your time. Upgrade your AI PC today by visiting Dell.com deals that's Dell.com deals when you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like aloe or Skins, sure you think about a great product, a cool brand, and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually businesses behind the business making, selling and for shoppers, buying. Simple for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify with shop pay. That boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts are going abandoned and way more sales happening. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell whatever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Businesses that sell more sellers sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Skins uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com Westwood1 all lowercase go to shopify.com Westwood1 to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com Westwood1.

[OG]

Ah, smart water Alkaline with antioxidant.

[David Gergen]

Whoa, that's refreshing.

[OG]

And a 9.5 ph for every way you move.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I did take a spin class today. Restoring like a pro.

[OG]

Smart Water Alkaline with antioxidant for those with a taste for taste, grab yours today.

[Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's totally gnarly neighbor, Doug, and which company in 1984 was split into seven parts? The company in question dated all the way back to 1885 and was broken up into pieces that had, according to Investopedia, mostly re merged by 2018, like the bad Terminator in Joe's mom's favorite film of all time, Judgment Day. Of course, the firm had warded off suits with the US government in 1913 and 1956, but finally had to break up in that storied year, 1984. So which company was it? American Telephone and Telegraph AT&T. And now to help you keep it together as a leader, David Gergen.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And David Gergen joins us. Thank you so much for coming down to the basement to talk leadership with us, David.

[David Gergen]

I'm, I'm. We will have a conversation. It'll be exalted out of the basement into the airwaves. But I'm delighted to be here. Thank you.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Amen. Thank you very much. I want to begin here because you immediately in your book, you don't talk to people in older age groups. You go right for young people. In the introduction to your book, why do you focus so much on young people immediately when it comes to this idea of leadership?

[David Gergen]

Because I think they are a great hope for the future. I think anybody who looks at the American landscape, the public landscape today, is horrified by what they see and where we've gotten ourselves. And as much as I would like to say that the baby boomers are going to solve all this, the truth is there are many very fine people who are baby boomers, who I think the generation we call baby boomers overall has been a disappointment. And I don't think this current generation who's in power is capable of overcoming the kind of crises that we've been seeing. If anything, life is getting tougher. The cascade of crises that hit us, we simply have been unable to resolve any one of them. And increasingly, I've come with you. The next few years are likely to be very rough, but if you look out over the horizon, I think there are glimmers of hope over the long term. It's why I consider myself a short term pessimist, but a long term optimist. And the optimism comes from the quality of young people that I think are coming through the system who represent new hope and they represent new fresh blood and fresh vision. That's what America has traditionally done. In times of great stress and adversity, we've turned to new people and it's made a big difference.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You talk about your time growing up and kind of struggling with leadership yourself, David, about really trying to find what you call your true north.

[David Gergen]

Well, I did. And I also just started trying to find what I wanted to do in life. One of my discoveries growing up was it's much easier to find out what you don't want to do than it is to find out, figure out what you do want to do.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Like whittling it down, right?

[David Gergen]

Yes, exactly. And you go, you know. I went through several iterations of, yeah, I thought I was going to be a professional baseball player. I was a fairly decent pitcher and when I was young. But then around 15, 16, 17, I sprouted up. I gained six inches in like six months or something like that. It was amazing. But I lost my coordination. And so I tried out for the high school baseball team and first day of tryouts, we had to do it in the gym because it was raining and I had my catcher there with me and I threw about three or four pitches and they went pretty well. Then I threw the next pitch and it went wild. I just completely lost control of the pitch. The ball went through a window. Through a window. But that's not the worst of it. The window was on the second floor there instantaneously. I have no future as a pitcher.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It might have been just a touch high, Is that what you're trying to say?

[David Gergen]

Just a touch, you know. And I went on for things like, you know, I went to law school and then spent some time on law firms in Manhattan and I discovered I don't want to do this. It didn't sing to me. It just, it was a money making machine. But I, I wasn't into money at the time and, you know, I didn't decide it against it. And then I went in the Navy and I said, I don't think so. So I banged around a little bit in the beginning.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But what did the Navy teach you about leadership?

[David Gergen]

Well, the Navy was one of the best experiences I've ever had on leadership development. I'm grateful that I served in a uniform for a couple of years. It's not that I was in all that much danger. I was on a ship that was on ported in Asia and Japan and our ship went to Vietnam and went to the Philippines and Taiwan. But what I liked about the military was that I'd gone to a couple of elite schools for undergraduate work and then for law school. Suddenly was thrown out of that. Within days after I left law school with honors, I was given a toothbrush and I was cleaning latrines in the Navy. Down on my hands and knees cleaning the damn latrine. That sort of humbles you pretty quickly. What I enjoyed about the Navy so much was I was given responsibility for about 50 young men. The Navy in those days was still didn't have women, but I had direct responsibility. Most of these kids, plus these young people had financial problems back home that they might have a girlfriend problem Back home, they had other issues that were colliding. They had, you know, they drank too much alcohol and that sort of thing. But as someone who was responsible for them, I learned to live with them and treasure their presence. And I found that, you know, they had a lot more discipline than I did. They were devoted to a cause. They really were more professional than I was. They were the enlisted, but they were more professional. And I really came to respect that and have a view that leadership and good works can come from people who didn't go to a fancy school, who, you know are down in the rings. And you know, the day will come when you're called on, if you're ready, if you're up to it, you can make a real difference in life by taking over a leadership position. And it doesn't have to be in a place like the White House. It doesn't have to be some glory place. It has to be a place where you can be serious and make a difference.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But you see so many people today, David, they see what's going on in Washington and they go, leadership. I want nothing to do with it.

[David Gergen]

Yeah, I agree. When I was growing up, people wanted their kids to grow up to be president. Today, they don't want them to be president. It's just too much of a mess. It's too hard. You get kicked around, you lose self respect, that sort of thing. And we do have a nation now that is pretty exhausted, emotionally spent, discouraged, looks at sort of the cascade of crises that we have and says, you know, how can we solve any of this? You know, we've jumped from one crisis to the next and never seem to get things put firmly behind us. The pandemic is still with us. Inflation is still with us. You know, the school shootings are still with us. And you go through a long litany of things that have been frustrating for so many Americans, and there's sort of a loss of hope. And I think we have to restore that. I think the job of leadership now is to bring fresh energy and fresh vision to what our communities can be and where we can make progress. And we've made some progress in recent years that we don't talk about very much. And we've made great progress, for example, on gay rights very quickly. Gay rights was sort of a stigma up there for a while. It's completely reversed. And so we shouldn't give up hope. We've got a lot of problems that are building up and a lot of dangers, frankly. But let's not give up hope. If we Give up hope. We're going to be lost.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You point to some early leaders to give new leaders a place to start. You talk about Ruth Bader Ginsburg. You talk about John McCain. You talk about John Lewis. Tell me about some of the lessons that new leaders can learn from people like those three.

[David Gergen]

Well, the three, there were 10 chosen to show that, you know, leadership comes from across the board. It's not the province of any one group. White males used to be. Delete the country. That has completely changed and for the better that we now have women in very, very large numbers who are coming in leadership position and doing very well at it. And frankly, we have people of color. I recently participated in a conversation with Ken Chenault and Ken Frazier, two African Americans, two CEOs of major, major companies.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I used to work for American Express and did pr.

[David Gergen]

Oh, you did?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And Ken Chenault was an amazing leader. Just an incredible.

[David Gergen]

Yeah, they were both great. And it was just such a pleasure to hear people who were analytic and patriotic and caring about the country. And yet, you knew, had encountered white their supremacy in the past. They'd endure, you know, various humiliated moments in their lives, and they came through it. They came through and they were stronger for it. I have great respect for people like that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

If I'm a young leader and I'm looking at not just those three, but I'm looking at getting into leadership, where do I really begin? Where do I. Do I find mentors? Do I go to Harvard and join your curriculum there? Where do I start off?

[David Gergen]

Oh, I think it's very, very important early on to begin paying your dues. We are privileged to live in the country we live in. 99% of the world looks at us and still is in awe of what we've accomplished over the past. And they worry about our future. I think it's really important that we begin asking young people to do some service early in their communities, to get involved, to work with the homeless. That's something young people can do very, very well to work, say, with first responders to climate problems. When Hurricane Sandy came along, for example, young people went out there and really worked and set an example that has been followed in years since these big storms come. They're frequently positions that young people can play in doing it. So my argument is start early, get in the arena early, then begin to look for places where you can, in fact, make a difference in your community. Work your way up in your community after you've spent time in community, in your hometown, in your home district, in your home rural Area, your own farming area. After you've done that, then you can begin to volunteer for political campaigns or you can do other kinds of things. You can go to college. There are ways you can sign up for things and over time, give yourself time. Don't feel you got to run for Congress for, you know, 10 minutes after you leave college. I think this thing about paying dues is really, really important. I, I know a young man named Eric Lesser who came out of Harvard and he was a, you know, first class young man. I first met him when he was a sidekick to David Axelrod. The political analyst. Yeah. Then Eric was sort of the guardian at the gate, the guardian at this door. And Eric, when he came out, could have had almost any job anywhere. He decided to go to Worcester, Massachusetts and run for the state legislature and he ran as a state representative. Not pretty. Many people marvel go out and do that kind of thing, but he has excelled at it. He's done it now for several years, and he's now running for lieutenant governor of Massachusetts. He's got a good shot at it because people have a lot of respect for Eric. He's a straight shooter, but he put in his time. He really served his district well. And that was. That was the mark of a good leader.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Another mark of a good leader that you talk about is trying to bring people together. And as a guy who served two Republican presidents and one Democratic president. Well, excuse me, three Republican presidents and one Democratic president.

[David Gergen]

I can show you the scars. I can show you the scar.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I don't know how I got that wrong, by the way. Well, it is funny.

[David Gergen]

Most people think I got it wrong.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What I was going to say was, during your career, look at how red I'm turning. During your career. I remember you getting all kinds of jabs from the left initially and then now jabs from the right. So being a moderate, I think is difficult. But on that point, you started an early age trying to bring people together. You tell this story about you went to a KKK rally to try to bring people together. What's going on there?

[David Gergen]

Well, it's an honor, a privilege for any American to work in the White House. So. And I've been there several times, so I'm quite blessed in life. But if you want to know what gave me the most fulfillment in public life, it was not in the White House. It was back in my home state of North Carolina. I grew up in the south and I went to segregated schools. Schools are still segregated. I lived on a dirt road there. So we didn't have much, but I had a great family. My dad was a mathematician and it was a chairman of the math department of Duke for a long time. But anyway, growing up in the south, when I learned I wasn't going to be a pitcher anymore and I got into journalism, eventually I got into the public arena. We had a governor named Terry Sanford who was elected in 1960. He was our John Kennedy, very charismatic guy, former Marine who had parachuted into the Battle of the Bulge. So he paid his dues, certainly. But it was the early days in the civil rights movement. And in 1963 I went to work for Terry's, the guy he appointed to run something called the North Carolina Good Neighbor Council. And I drove him all around the state. I was a research assistant, I was a communications director. I was his driver because it was a small little place. Small, little.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You're like a Swiss army knife.

[David Gergen]

So any event, I found that very, very fulfilling because you could see the progress going from town to town bringing black leadership together with white leadership, working on jobs, working on education, and very importantly, trying to keep the peace. Back in the 63s, when Schwerner and Cheney, those three guys got murdered in Mississippi. And so we were very much on knife edge in other parts of the south, like North Carolina. So in any event, to go to the point you were just raising at, one experience I had was that the kkk, which was very strong in our state, was putting on a major rally in the southwestern corner of the state. And I had three buddies, one of whom was a high school friend who was an associate pastor that summer in a black church. He brought a tape recorder with him that we could go to this Klan rally and he could tape record it and I could see who was buying it, the sheets. And I would be more effective working on race relations if I understood the KKK a little better who they were. So we had a group of four of us who drove together down to the rally and just outside there were a ton of cops around. But as soon as we got inside the gates, the cops disappeared and order was being kept by a bunch of bully boys and brown uniform, essentially big husky guys, scary looking guys. And I realized right then this is going to be could be a tough evening. They surrounded us in the early part of the rally. They stole the guy's tape recorder. They yelled at us and screamed at us, but they left us, basically left us alone. But when we went to our car to leave, it was out in the field, there were about 300 people swaddling in Our car. They were yelling and screaming at us and banging on us. So we were able to get inside the car and then they were jumping on the roof and they were basically telling us, we're going to make sure you never come again here again. You'll never step foot in another clan rally.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You thought you were done?

[David Gergen]

I thought we were done. And I told her, told my friend who was driving, I was riding shotgun. I said, listen, just get the key out. Put the key in the ignition. Let's get the car started so we have some control here. But then let's gently move the car forward. We don't want to run over anybody, we don't want to hurt anybody, but we need to get the hell out of here, otherwise we may not make it ourselves. And that's what we did. We gradually got toward the gate, but then the people who were surrounding us went and jumped in their cars and we, when we went on the highway, they chases in the dark of the night. And again, I thought, we're going to get really banged up here. Well, I decided when it was over, we escaped and fortunately life went on. But I decided, you know, I bear some responsibility for that. We, we treated people at the KKK like animals in a zoo. And we went off and wanted to look at them as, and see how strange they were. And we were, that was a reckless thing to do and we put ourselves at risk. But more importantly, we started them up. It was like waving a red flag in front of a bull and they came charging us.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is that the problem today, David, not to cut you up, but is that the problem in today's environment, that we do that to each other? We look at the other side as if we're animals at the zoo and we bait each other?

[David Gergen]

Yeah. You know, the truth is it would be healthy for a lot of our current students to go into the Bronx and go into Harlem and see what life is like. With a 20 minute subway ride in New York. You go from the richest district in the country to the poorest district in the country. And you know, if we only live among the rich or the well to do or the affluent, we're not going to understand why there's so much suffering and why people are so frustrated. So it's really, really important, I think, to listen to the voices and try to understand the experiences of those who've been less fortunate, don't have an equal shot, and are going through a lot of suffering in life.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about some of your time in the White House, because I have to imagine there were just some amazing discussions you were part of, but also sometimes that that might have had you wondering if this was really the right place for David Gergen. You had told me story at one point, David, about a dry erase marker and how that dry erase marker may have changed the scope of your career. It didn't end up changing the scope of your career, but it might have. And I'm wondering if you could read, if you could tell our listeners.

[David Gergen]

Sure. Well, I am a big believer in the power of humor. I think that we get through a lot of life. Yes. Lincoln said, if you don't laugh, you can only cry. Laughter helps. I think it is so important for leadership. People don't recognize, you know, that someone who's comfortable enough to, especially to tell self deprecating stories is pretty well anchored as a person, as a human being. And if you're so uptight you can't laugh at yourself, you know, you better find a different line of work than trying to be a public leader. So anyway, early in the Reagan presidency, he decided he wanted to give a fireside talk, in effect, an evening speech to the country about his economic plan and what he hoped to do. And you know, having a president come on and talk about the deficits is about the most boring thing you can put on television. Right. So with the question in my mind, I was a communications guy with how do we make this interesting? At that time we didn't have social media and we didn't have all the kind of gim cracks that you have to communicate. We had something very simple. So I said, Ms. Bridge, I'd like to get an easel and put it behind you. Sir, when you're giving your speech and midway through your speech, what we'd like you to do is to get up, leave your chair, keep reading the teleprompter, but go over to the easel, pick up the red felt tip pen and draw a line showing what will happen to the national deficits if in fact we don't embrace your program. Here's the danger we face. Would you do that? And he said, yes, I'll be happy to do that. And I said, well, sir, it was a 9 o' clock speech and you're very experienced at these things, but can you come over a little early so we can rehearse? Because you have to, you know, you have to be reading the teleprompter, you got to get up your chair, et cetera. And he said, no, no, I'll be happy to do it, David. So about 20 minutes to 9, he comes over and we sit him down. We have a rehearsal, and he gets up, draws the line. Everything is flawless. Nine o' clock comes. We got 70 million people out there tuned in. And he comes to that part of the speech where he gets up, goes over. And we had forgotten to do one thing. We forgotten to put the cap back on the red felt tip pen that he was going to use, draw that hard line. And so he said, here's what's going to happen to the deficits. And he took this pin and drew it across the chart and all you got was a screech. We had no line.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's 70 billion people watching him.

[David Gergen]

You're watching this thing. And I was. I was standing about 35ft away behind the cameraman, the TV cameraman. I was updating my resume. And so I had an assistant TV guy named Mark Good, who had more foresight than I did. He brought a second red felt tip pen. So as soon as this happened, Reagan was standing up there sort of helplessly. Mark hits the floor, crawls across the Oval Office. Sigma Service is in there, and they're looking at him and looking at us and saying, what the hell? It's not in the playbook. White House staff member attacks prison. And Reagan was looking over, you know, looking around and saying, who's this jackass? Probably across my floor. So Mark crawl up to the desk, crawls behind the desk, gets up to rig his pant leg, holds up a second red felt tip pen and ringing. Gets this little twinkle in his eye and looks. Grabs a pant, looks into the camera and says, I think I'll try my pen again. And they drew a beautiful line. And we were thinking to ourselves, if that had been Nixon, who was a very uptight guy, and it really couldn't. His fingers weren't good in dialing on dial phone. You can imagine how they'd been in the age we live in now with everything, but if Nixon had been president, the speech would have been called off. We would have been thrown out on our butts in the Rose Garden, and the bombers would have been over Vietnam in the morning. There were a lot of moments like that, especially in the Reagan White House. It was people who love to sort of poke fun at each other. I'll tell you one more quick story, if you don't mind. There was a rule in the White House, it's every White House, that if somebody sends you a gift from the outside, you know, unsolicited you don't know this person. I sent you something. You got to mark it down in your notebook that you received it, and then you got to ship it out so it doesn't say in your office, you don't accept whiskey from people. You don't accept other things from people. So one day, Mike Deaver and I were standing around when this great big portrait arrived at Jim Baker's office. Jim Becker was chief of staff. The portrait must have been like 3ft tall and 2ft, 3ft wide. It was big. When Deaver and I got this thing, we said, let's grab this thing. We're going to be able to use it somewhere. We don't know where. Let's grab it. So we went and put it in my closet. But Baker never saw it. He had no idea that painting had ever arrived. So the day came when Reagan had his birthday and was going to fly off to Camp David for the weekend with Nassi. And he met down. Met about three of us down in the Diplomatic room just before you go out to the helicopter to have a little chat before he left for the weekend. So, you know, he had. He could size up and be briefed on the weekend. And David was there, I was there, Baker was there, and Deaver and I had this penny wrapped up in birthday paper. So we had this birthday thing sitting there, and Reagan was looking at it. Well, you know, what is this? And we said, Mr. President, we came a little late because we had to get this. Jim wanted to make sure you got this present before. Before you. We wanted to make sure he got this before. Before he went off to Camp David. And he said. He took it. And they said, oh, thank you, Jim. I really appreciate this. Should I open it? Baker didn't know what the hell's going on. He's really puzzled. I said, I guess so. Don't. Reagan opens it up. The gift from his chief of staff. There's a portrait of his chief, picture of him. Yeah. Baker went nuts.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I can imagine Reagan just that look that he'd always get in his eye. And that must have been just.

[David Gergen]

Oh, yeah, exactly. He laughed.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But how'd you live it down with Jim Baker? Because what a great chief of staff. He seemed like from the outside, just a wonderful person, great leader.

[David Gergen]

He's a super guy. I'm so proud that I had an opportunity, privilege that I had an opportunity to work under his mastery because he was best chief of Staff, I think, in the history of the country.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I want to end on, on this note, by the way, even Before I say that, just a fantastic read, David.

[David Gergen]

Thank you.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I absolutely 100% enjoyed every minute of reading. Hearts Touch with Fire, it was, yeah, just between the stories and the, the huge amount of leadership made me realize that we just have, we have a long way to go. But there is so much promise out there right now.

[David Gergen]

Yes, I was. Absolutely, absolutely. There's so many young people who are starting to make a difference. You know, I've come to the conclusion it's time for us, those of us who are, you know, getting along in years, to step back. Some try to help the next generation, but we need to pass the torch to the next generation. And I think that they're a very promising generation. They're not perfect, to be sure, but they remind me so much of the people I found in Washington when I first got there. The World War, the World War II generation was there and they were, they were just so good. It was a terrific generation to work for. And I learned at their feet so often. So I, And I think it's now time to. The book is intended as part of a legacy to sort of say, here's what I learned. You ought to hear a number of voices about how you can make a difference. But here's one, one voice that I hope you'll pay attention to. And, you know, but, but look for others, because nobody has a monopoly on.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Listen, I want to end on this question, on a current events question. I'm wondering how you would advise a president to think about this issue because you talked about so many things right now that are dividing us. But as you and I record this, just about a week before this is going to be live, the Biden administration's approved a $5.8 billion automatic student loan cancellation, which is the largest in history. According to them, 560,000 federal student loan borrowers who attended Corinthian colleges, one of these for profit schools that made a lot of claims and ended up shutting down very quickly. Yeah, just ugliness. But this is a huge area, this student loan crisis. And I know that our listeners are divided, David. Half of people out there go, you know what? I went through school. I had to pay my, to talk about pay your dues. I had to pay my own way through. And the other half are like, I had no idea what the hell I was getting into. Everybody was doing it. It was a thing that you did. Like, how would you advise a president to come down on this student loan problem?

[David Gergen]

I do have a bias here, but let me say, first of all, I don't know much about these Corinthian schools. They flim flammed a lot of people. I think that 560,000 people and the $5.8 billion, whatever the number is that Biden is supporting, that seemed reasonable to me because they were, they were jipped, they were cheated and Corinthians obviously couldn't pay it. And what it meant for a lot of people who did pay and got nothing out of it. It's a burden they've had to bear in life. And so I'm sympathetic with people who got cheated. But the bigger issue for student debt is what happened to people that went to community colleges or went on to four year schools and how they pile up debts in order to go. I think it's really, really good that they, as a result of their endeavors and went to college, got an education. I think there's a much more productive country because so many people have gone on to school. So that's a good thing. But when it comes to the debt, when it comes to how to pay it back, I would feel more comfortable. And I think if I were on the receiving end, I'd be prouder if I did some work in exchange for canceling out my debt as opposed to sort of lining up at the cash window and say, just give me the money. There's a quality about that. If you borrow the money, you ought to have some skin in the game to help pay it back. I don't think you can pay. I appreciate you can't pay all your loans back and we ought to be helpful on that. But there ought to be some payment and some way to earn money. And I personally would link it to national service and that is, we'd like you to give a year back to your community. Find ways you can be helpful in hospitals or in schools. You know, you can be helping to deal with the dropout rate. You can work with kids who are younger. You can do a lot of different things in your community. Give us a year back in your community and we'll take a year off your college debt or your student debt. You know, give us two years, we'll take two years off. You can work your way out of this in something that will give. It will serve your community as opposed to just serving your instant needs. That's where I come from. I realize there's a bias there, but there ought not to be something for nothing kind of society. I don't think that's where we should be. I think pride comes when you earn it. Pride comes when you Pay your dues. Now, I think if you come out of college with a lot of money you owe, we should make it easy to pay your dues. But there ought to be a little work involved. Hi, I'm David Hirsch, and when I'm.

[Doug]

Not hosting the dad to dad podcast for the Special Fathers Network, which is.

[David Gergen]

A dad to dad mentoring program for fathers raising kids with special needs, I'm stacking Vegemites.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Big thanks to David Gergen for talking leadership, man. I agree, OG. It's hard, it's hard, hard, hard to be a leader in this environment. And yet we need leaders more than ever. We need people to step up and lead, whether it's leading your family, leading your business, leading in your local community, leading on a national level. We need some. We've got an issue.

[OG]

Just like, you know, money's not taught in schools. It's very tough to teach leadership. But I know some places do. And super important.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What do you think about David Gergen's take on this student loan debacle that we're in? We've obviously been talking about student loans here for the past decade, and the problem just continues to get worse, and politicians kind of kick it, kick the can down the road. Gergen advising people, says that he would advise any president, Republican or Democrat, to exchange debt cancellation for service. It seems like we already kind of have some of that. But on the front end, right, you can sign up for programs already. If you're in certain fields where some of your debt gets canceled. Seems like it would just expand that current program.

[OG]

Yeah, I mean, that kind of exists, right, the student loan forgiveness program. I think it's a great idea, especially if you can do it, like, kind of on demand. And what I mean by that is now the program, I think, works a little bit, like you need to do 10 years of time, and then it's forgiven. But there's a lot of distance between starting that in 10 years. You know, there's so many different things that will change. I know I have a family member who was kind of on that path, and then a career change and a job change and a location change kind of took her off that path. You know, that wasn't just wasn't the plan day one. But it's hard to predict 10 years in advance. I like the idea of being able to make it. I've done a year, and now here's a year. I mean, you could do the same thing with military service, for example. You could say you do your military contract and you get this benefit on the back end.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And something I was thinking about as David was talking about that, og, is that this may also help with leadership. Right. When you get involved, you have to get involved in your community to help pay off your debt. You see things that you didn't see before. And I really struggled with philanthropy early in my career because I didn't feel strongly about a certain cause. And it was only when I got my hands dirty and I got into philanthropy and actually started working at it that I really saw what was going on. It might be the same with service to our country. Like, we don't know what leadership vacuum there is out there until we start to get involved in our community.

[David Gergen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So happy that David took time for us. Great book, by the way. Loved reading. Any book on leadership right now is much, much needed. Hey, let's throw out the even lifeline and tackle some of life's most important questions. So today, let's throw out the even lifeline to our new friend Ron. Say hi, Ron.

[David Gergen]

Hey, Joe and Og, I have a question.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Could you please discuss goals based investing? Currently, I don't have any goals, but I'm investing with the goal, I guess, of making more money. Isn't that the goal of every investor, just to make more money? Do you have to invest to go.

[David Gergen]

On vacation or to buy a home.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Or to have a car? Why can't I just invest to make more money?

[David Gergen]

I'm confused why I need a goal in order to invest.

[Doug]

Does that affect the way I invest.

[David Gergen]

If I don't have a goal? Sort of confused and hopefully you can.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Clear up that confusion.

[David Gergen]

Looking forward to your feedback.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thank you. Goodbye.

[Doug]

I love that call. Did you hear crickets in the background?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes. I was going to say, I don't know, Doug, if I like more just his voice and his tone and the way he asked that question, which is the way everybody's thinking about this question that has the same question. But you're right. The crickets, the outdoors.

[Doug]

And then he just, he used silence so well, he'd just end a sentence and just let it sit there and marinate for a second before he started talking again. I love that call.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

If only we had an announcer on our show who could let silence just happen.

[Doug]

God, I know OG will not shut up, man.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What are you thinking, Og?

[OG]

I think that if you don't have anything going on and you don't have anything that you're planning for, you still have to have a default. And what I mean by that is if you're lucky enough to be Able to have more money than you need to run your life, food and shelter and whatever you have going on, then if you don't have a specific purpose for the next money, Right? Like, I've taken care of myself and I'm also saving for retirement or taking care of myself and I'm sending my kids to school or take care of myself, but now I don't know what else to do, or I've done those things and I still have money. Then you have to figure out what the default is going to be. Is the default to increase your consumption? The lifestyle creep is what we call that. Or is the default to just invest the difference? Because to be fair, if you don't have a goal today, that doesn't mean you won't have one in the future. And if you knew in the future what you know now in terms of your, you know, savings opportunity, you'd probably be pretty happy that you set money aside for this goal that you didn't know that you might have 20 years from now.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think that.

[OG]

But that doesn't mean that you have to.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. Doesn't that mean, though, it's much more about time frame and respecting the time frame until you think you're going to want the money than the specific. I want a boat.

[OG]

Yeah, no, absolutely. That's what I mean. Like, if you've checked all those boxes, this could be somebody that's kind of new to investing, that goes, I don't know, I can't even. I just started working. How can I think about retirement? I'm not married. I don't want a house. I don't have any kids. Like, I don't mean that you should put your money in a 529 plan because you might have kids someday. That's, you know, you don't want to do that. But you have to decide, are you going to consume all of your excess or are you going to have a default of investing the excess? And you can invest just to have more money. That's perfectly fine because it gives you the flexibility, that margin of safety on the back end that you don't even know that you need yet.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Here's the reason this. Yeah, Doug?

[Doug]

Well, I listened to little moments of the show over 10 years, Joe. I mean, just little glimpses that stick in my memory. And haven't we talked about, you know, changing your level of aggression with your investing based on your timeframe? So if you don't have any specific goal in mind for a thing, it's just, I want more money in the Future. Might you be a little bit more aggressive with where you put that money if you know that you're not going to want it or use it until, you know, 40 years from now, 30 years from now, or vice versa?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Absolutely. I mean, the way that I describe this in my book is that investments have growing seasons. And the reason I think that analogy works so well is that you, you plant investments based on when you think you're going to need it. So whether it's for thing A or thing B is irrelevant. But what a lot of investors do is like we talked about during our headline, Jamie Dimon or Elon Musk start doing some things. If you don't know when you need the money, you start worrying about it. And what do you do? You pull out the corn when it is still just barely, you know, above ground versus waiting until it's time to actually harvest your crop. What?

[Doug]

Are you serious? That was the analogy you went with pull out your cord?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes, absolutely.

[David Gergen]

Okay. What?

[Doug]

That's not a thing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm not talking about the way you pull out your cord.

[OG]

Yeah, but if you don't have, and I think to your point, if you don't have a specific time horizon and a specific goal, then your time horizon is indefinite. So why would you not then just be invested as aggressively as possible at all times with that money?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. The problem that will benefit you, by the way. No. Which absolutely will benefit you because then you could ignore the news because then you can ignore the ups and downs. But Ron, the problem with non goal based investing that I've seen and that I think you've seen. Oh, gee. Is that people do the opposite. When I don't have a goal, I tend to panic more often because if the goal is just have more money, I'm counting it all the time. Right. You don't count your money when you're sitting at the table. There'll be time enough for counting when the deal is done.

[OG]

I would also challenge Ron to say that I bet that you do have a goal. We just haven't asked enough questions to quantify what that looks like. You know what I mean? Like I need more money. Okay. Why? Because I need more money. Why? Because eventually I don't want to work anymore.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh.

[OG]

That sounds like financial independence. Well, sounds like a goal to me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Right. And digging into that og. I mean, think about this. The next question that I would have them would be almost like minimum viable product for a company. What's the minimum viable age where you would be happy not working? Like what is the what is. What is that age? Is it 45? Is it 50? Is it like, how aggressive do we want to be? Because if the goal is to have more money now, we're not even talking about investing. We're talking about raising the difference between your income and your expense level. So if you tell me, hey, I want more money today, well, then this is a question about asking for a raise. It's not a question about how you invest your portfolio.

[OG]

Right? Good problem to have.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It is a good problem to have, Ron. Especially when you're clearly walking down a dirt road through the country. It sounds like, doesn't it, completely wondering.

[Doug]

When to pull out your corn.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Listen, when you plant a crop, Doug, do you plant the crop on a set day or a set month? Because it has, over centuries been proven to work.

[Doug]

No question mark you don't.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You just do it. You just do it randomly. You just go ahead and you plant it on a random day and hope like hell that it comes up sooner or later.

[Doug]

It will, though. You could plan in December. You're planting in January, Mike. You don't know what the weather is going to do. It might come up. You got to always be investing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So what? So what's your highest probability of it actually working out where you're going to get a harvest from that crop?

[Doug]

So you're telling me I should invest my money in April?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

In. In what?

[Doug]

In April?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm. No, I'm telling you invest it based on when you need the money in the growing season and then it's only been two months. The corn.

[David Gergen]

Repeat the part of the stuff where you said all about the things.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The corn's only a little high. You know what Ron's gonna do when he's panicking because he read this.

[Doug]

This article about a. Wow, Ron's back with this. Crickets. All I was trying to do was make fun of your corn analogy and you pulled us right back in to win. Are we planting?

[OG]

He's going with it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thanks for the question, Ron. If you've got a question for us, head to stacking benjamin.com voicemail. Ron, hopefully where you work better than.

[Doug]

Where I work interjected with that about seven minutes ago. Thanks for the question.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Fantastic.

[David Gergen]

Yes.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

If you've got a question. Where.

[OG]

Speaking of, I have two minutes left.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And there it is. OG Calls an end to the show.

[Doug]

Thank God.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And scene stacking benjamin.com voicemail for your question. Hey, that's going to do it for today. We've got just a couple more things. Because of my. My illness. Things have Changed around with our tour tonight. If you're in Kansas City, join me at Barnes and Noble. You can get [e-mail] Stacked Thursday, I'll be in Omaha. Saturday in Des Moines, Iowa. Come join me stackers at one of those three locations. Stacking benjamins.com stacked and if you're not here to just hang out and talk money, you're here because you need better help in your corner. Stacking Benjamins.com OG is the link to his calendar. Oh, gee. And his team are taking clients so you can make better financial decisions in the future. All right, Doug, that does it for today. What should we have learned today?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, first, listen to David Gergen. Wanna lead? Get out there, speak your mind and lead people. Maybe not into a KKK rally. Second, think there's a hurricane coming with your money. Focus on your investment policy statement. And you could turn any lemons in your future into lemonade. That's a much better analogy. But let's just. Can we just all call calm down with the hurricanes and the tornadoes and like the firestorms and earthquakes when we're talking about money?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Jeez. I think what we need to do more of. Doug. I think we need more corn. Let's. Let's go back into corn.

[Doug]

Need corn analogies. And how do you pick up. How do you pick out your corn?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

When do you harvest your corn, Doug? When do you harvest your corn?

[Doug]

Let's do that. Let's just make all investment analogies are going to be farming analogies.

[David Gergen]

The.

[Doug]

Everybody gets those. All right, but you know what the big lesson is, Joe?

[David Gergen]

No.

[Doug]

While the real 1984 was apocalyptic ish, we're lucky we don't live with a literal Big Brother. Just Facebook and Apple and TikTok and Amazon and Tinder and Uber. That's way better, right? Thanks to David Gergen. His book Hearts Touched with Fire, How Great Leaders Are Made, is available at the White House. I bet it's not available at the White House. I don't think you could, like, go in there on a tour and just say, like, I like a copy of that. Yeah, it was by a guy who worked here a long time ago.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No, one of your former employees.

[David Gergen]

Yeah.

[Doug]

You know how many former employees here have written books? There isn't a bookstore large enough for that. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2022, and is created by Joe Salsihai. Our producer is Karen Repine. The show is written by the brilliant Paulette, perhaps with help from Joe, me and Doc G from the Earn and Invest podcast. After you listen to our show, check out the 201 deep dives, written by our website manager and blog editor, Brooke Miller. You'll find the 411 on all things money at the 201. Just go to stackingbenjamins.com 201. Once we bottle up all this goodness, we ship it to our engineer, the amazing Steve Stewart. Steve helps the rest of our team sound nearly as good as I do right now. Want to chat with friends about the show later? Mom's friend Gertrude is our social media coordinator and the room mother in our Facebook group called the Basement. So say hello when you see us posting online. Here's a weird fact. Both she and Tina Eichenberg are never in the same room at the same time. To join all the Basement fun with other stackers type stackingbenjamins.com I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin show. Not only should you not take advice from these dorks, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. Sa.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You look like a crossing guard today, Doug.

[Doug]

I'm a little cross this morning, Joe.

[OG]

He's a little cross.

[Doug]

And it's orange. Oh, gee, I know you've mentioned yellow. This is.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Doesn't it look yellow? It looks very yellow.

[OG]

It is decidedly lemon.

[Doug]

No, this is like hunting orange. Trust me. It's my camera. It's my lighting. It's orange.

[OG]

Which may actually make it worse if it was.

[Doug]

I know, but I like to stand out in a crowd. What does this color look like to you? What does my watch band look like to you?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Orange.

[Doug]

So right next to it. Well, I can see because of the yellow that right next to it is yellow. Okay, fine.

[OG]

We all live in a big yellow sweatshirt. Big yellow sweatshirt.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Is yellow what you wear when you're like, don't cross me today? Is that it?

[Doug]

Some. Generally in nature, when an animal like this guy, because I am an animal, wears a bright color, it stay the F away. I'm kind of in that mood this morning.

[David Gergen]

Rah, rah, rah.

[Doug]

Yeah, that's me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So what happened?

[Doug]

Woke up.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Had to deal with you still alive.

[Doug]

My eyes opened, and I'm like, yep, time to be pissed again.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This again.

[OG]

Sobered up.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, you didn't record the Navy Federal. Okay, we're. We're. We're gonna do Navy Federal again. And then Doug, back to you. Doug, when you bought your first tent to go down to the campground, how was that mortgage process? Was that difficult?

[Doug]

No, super, super easy. They offered financing right at the store, which is. I always take that whenever they offer financing at the store. I figure you're not going to get any better than that. So I just grab it right there. And it was a couple years long financing, like maybe 10 or 12 on that tent.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, gee, what could go wrong with that?

[OG]

Gotta love it. Better than the criminal experience that I had.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What's your experience?

[OG]

You make 140,000, right?

[David Gergen]

Wink, wink, right?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Huh? Huh?

[OG]

Here's an interest only loan for 6%. You'll pay it off eventually.

[Doug]

You know, I've heard stories like that. I don't remember ever having that. But what was always the most fungible number in the whole process was the estimate on the house you were buying. Like, we can just make this house worth whatever it needs to be worth to make the numbers work.

[OG]

Not the purchase price.

[Doug]

No, it's the. Why can't I come up with it? Like, none of this needs to go in but appraisal. Appraisal, My God, I could not come up with that word. They'll just make the appraisal work out to be whatever it needs to so that we get the right amount.

[OG]

Magically always is exactly the same price as what you're buying it for.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, but isn't that the case? Like, if somebody's going to pay that number for that house, doesn't that factor into what the appraisal should be like? Okay, you just bought it for X amount of money. So isn't that like the appraised. Doesn't that factor in.

[Doug]

Yeah. Anywhere else it's like, yeah, that baseball player is worth $198 million because that's what the market will bear.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Because they paid it.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not in the home buying industry. And then they magically always made it me the number that they needed it to be. That's what I didn't have anybody say, Doug, you now make $22,000 a year. Thanks for the raise. Never got that. Apparently OG did.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

By the way, the home buying process, just an aggregate still just a real pain. I mean, you think about the fact that you've got all the moving happening. You got to find the right real estate professionals to work with. Or you decide to go it alone, which I think is 4 far more dangerous. You got to clean your whole house to show it OG or have somebody to clean it, meet some new neighbors. Like, just the whole. The whole process is horrible.

[OG]

I know. My new neighbors got a new sound system installed outside yesterday.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, perfect.

[OG]

I'm holding out hope that it was a babysitter because the music didn't quite exactly match the people that I saw inside. You know, like old late 40s, early 50s family, super old, blasting like Cardi B.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Are you saying I can get behind? Are you saying that the music carpeting didn't match the music drapes didn't match the homeowner drapes?

[Doug]

Throttle back. Your response on that, OG no comment.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This has got to be after show because this is way too long for Navy Federal spot.

[Doug]

We were doing a Navy Federal spot.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This is supposed to be a 32nd Navy Federal spot where we're, like, off and running.

[Doug]

They're getting their money's worth today.