How to Sidestep the 4 Culprits Wrecking Middle Class Retirement

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: How to Sidestep the 4 Culprits Wrecking Middle Class Retirement

Date: September 15, 2025
Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy, OG, and Doug

Overview

In this lively episode, Joe, OG, and Doug dig into a pressing—and clickbaity—headline: “The Number One Habit that Destroys Middle Class Retirement Dreams.” The team debunks the sensationalism, breaks down the genuine threats to a secure retirement for the American middle class, and shares practical advice, real-life stories, and a heaping side of humor. Beyond the main topic, the episode features a critique of trendy ETF picks, a “second opinion” on stock splits and taxes, and an invitation for community engagement, all keeping with the Stacking Benjamins balance of fun and function.

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Main Discussion: The Top Four Habits Wrecking Retirement

Breakdown of the “Culprits”

(Segment begins at ~09:09)

Despite the headline promising “one habit,” the article referenced in the show actually identifies four critical bad habits:

1. Carrying High-Interest Debt into Retirement

   • OG and Joe stress that entering retirement with high-interest debt (credit cards, car loans, etc.) erodes financial stability and quality of life.
   • OG:

     “It destroys everything all the time... When you think about how much work you have to do to be able to afford all of the monthly payments that you have in your life… that’s not putting food on the table, that’s not having any fun. That’s not saving any money.” (11:00)

   • Joe humorously contrasts the cautious optimism about S&P 500 returns with the ironclad guarantees of credit card interest rates:

     “Credit card puts in writing 28.5—they are guaranteeing themselves 28.5 on you. And we’re like, ‘oh, back it down, back at that. Not 10 or 11.’” (14:01)

2. Lacking a Tax Strategy for Withdrawals

   • Many retirees underestimate the impact of not planning for taxes on withdrawals from various accounts (401(k), Roth, brokerage, etc.).
   • OG:

     “If you have only one bucket, you’re limited in your choices... The time to prepare for that is when you’re 30 or 40.” (15:03)

   • Joe underscores the value of diversification across all three “tax triangle” corners: pre-tax, Roth, and taxable brokerage.
   • He also reminds listeners about tax bracket management and “gotchas” like IRMAA and Social Security taxation (17:52).

3. Treating a Home as the Retirement Plan

   • The notion that selling or borrowing against a primary residence will fund retirement is deeply flawed and emotionally complicated.
   • OG:

     “Selling the family home to fund your retirement is a little bit more mentally painful than people think it is... it sounds like a great idea until you have to execute it.” (19:35)

4. Not Planning for Longevity Risk

   • Many underestimate how long they’ll live—and how much money they’ll need.
   • Nationwide Retirement Institute data: For a 65-year-old, a 50% chance to reach age 85 (male) or 88 (female), and a 25% chance to reach 91 (male) or 93 (female).
   • OG:

     “This is why, from a planning standpoint, we use 100 as kind of a baseline... You can’t prove to me that 100 is an unrealistic number.” (22:06)

   • The hosts debate the tradeoff between “conservative” planning horizons and missing out on spending/experiences (24:39).
   • Delaying Social Security, considering longevity insurance, keeping portfolios growth-oriented, and planning for long-term care are offered as solutions.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Clickbait Headlines:
  Joe:

  “The headline says the number one habit, and they proceed to give us five. That’s when you know there was no communication between whoever wrote the title.” (09:46)

• On Credit Card Debt:
  Joe:

  “We happily sign up for more and go, ‘oh, it’s not that big a deal.’” (14:31)

• On Taxes & Withdrawals:
  OG:

  “Everybody thinks it’s fun when Willie’s all nilly with everything, but then when you do it with your withdrawals, it’s not so great.” (14:53)

• On Longevity & Planning:
  OG:

  “If you’re too conservative in your planning, you’re going to underspend throughout your entire retirement life and not do stuff.” (23:14)

• On Industry Norms for Life Expectancy:
  OG:

  “I think 100 is the minimum. Honestly, I think 110 or 120 is probably a good number also.” (25:17)

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Key Insights and Practical Tips

• Tackle Debt Aggressively Before Retiring:
  Prioritize eliminating high-interest debt—every dollar spent on interest is a dollar not enjoyed in retirement.

• Diversify Retirement Account Types:
  Build flexibility by contributing to pre-tax, Roth, and taxable accounts; this opens up tax strategies during withdrawal years.

• Have a Distribution Tax Plan:
  Annually evaluate withdrawal sources to optimize for taxes and minimize pitfalls like IRMAA surcharges or surprise taxation on Social Security.

• Don’t Rely on Home Equity Alone:
  Treat the value of your primary residence as a backup, not the main act, in your retirement income planning.

• Plan for a Long Life, but Balance Enjoyment:
  Use a higher-than-average age for projections (planning to 100+), but revisit annually to balance against underspending and missed adventures.

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Quick Segments & Listener Engagement

TikTok/YouTube Minute: “Four ETFs to Hold Forever”

(Begins at ~34:53)

• Social media video recommends: VTI (total US market), VOO (S&P 500), QQQ (NASDAQ/tech), IBIT (bitcoin ETF).
• The hosts challenge the redundancy between VTI, VOO, and QQQ, suggesting it’s akin to “having a peach pie and some peach cobbler.” OG calls for real diversification, like small caps and international, not simply large US stocks and bitcoin.
• OG’s “digital gold” comparison:

  “Gold has returned about 4.4x since 1980. Stocks are up 51x since 1980. Which one is a better hedge for inflation?” (38:17)

Second Opinion: Do Stock Splits Trigger Taxes?

(Begins at ~39:19)

• Listener asks if a split (e.g., 10-for-1) means a tax bill.
• OG:

  “No, that doesn’t have any effect. Your cost basis is adjusted equally... At the end of the day when you get a stock split, that doesn’t do anything to anything. That’s just a big non event.” (41:05)

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Community Corner

(Back porch segment, ~44:24)

• Shout-out to Stacker Janelle for repping Stacking Benjamins at a CampFI event in her SB t-shirt.
• Listener Falcon Horowitz wins the Internet with his “chicken broth” dad joke (“Is that where chickens save their post-tax retirement money?”), followed by a playful post from Philip on “nest egg” origins.
• Encouragement for listeners to submit their own stories or wear SB swag in the wild.

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Memorable Exchanges

• On Home Equity in Retirement:
  OG details the psychological struggle of selling a beloved family home, even after years of touting it as a “plan,” providing a relatable, human side to the financial calculation (18:26-20:23).

• On Life Expectancy:
  Doug muses on not wanting to live to 100, while OG jokes about aiming for 140 to “see my kids turn 100”—a moment of levity highlighting the unpredictability of planning for longevity (20:31-20:44).

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Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Banter & Episode Introduction | 01:13-04:01 | | Main Headline Begins | 09:09 | | High-Interest Debt in Retirement | 11:00 | | Tax Strategy for Withdrawals | 14:47 | | Using Home as a Retirement Plan | 18:05 | | Longevity Risk & Life Expectancy Planning | 20:23-26:18 | | Host opinions on Stock Splits & Taxes | 39:19 | | ETF Critique (TikTok/YouTube Minute) | 34:53-39:12 | | Listener Community / CampFI Shoutouts & Fun Banter | 44:24 |

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Final Takeaways

• Don’t get distracted by clickbait. The title may scream “number one habit,” but real retirement risk is multi-faceted.
• Be proactive—eliminate high-interest debt, diversify your account types, plan for taxes, and assume a long, active retirement.
• Stay flexible and revisit your plan annually to balance security with enjoying your hard-earned savings.
• Stack Benjamins with a sense of humor.

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For full resources and links referenced, visit stackingbenjamins.com.

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This summary covers only the primary discussion and knowledge sections. For the trivia, pop culture reviews, and signature end-of-episode humor, listen to the full episode!

Transcript

[Joe Saul Sehi]

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[Sponsor Voice]

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[Joe Saul Sehi]

Look at you guys, all rested and ready. Oh, gee, you look very rested. How was your week off?

[OG]

Got my glow up.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Is that a spray tan or is that real?

[OG]

I don't know, I just. I've been naturally a perfect level of melatonin.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I was telling somebody that I've been going to the gym a lot lately, but my catchphrase is, sun's out.

[OG]

Walk in and walk out.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah.

[OG]

Are you there for the free brownies in the morning?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Have you seen those Doc Talk guys? They had one recently that said, oh, man, I went into the gym because they have all these new machines. The new ones have everything, like three Musketeers, Snickers, everything. We're back for another eight weeks. And you know how we start every Monday? Not just the ones that start off a new eight weeks. We raise our mugs and then we say on behalf of the men and women making podcast in Mom's basement and the men and women at Navy Federal Credit Union, here's to our troops. Kept us safe during our week away. It's time for us to go stack some Benjamins now together, shall we?

[OG]

Stacky Stack.

[Doug]

Thanks, everybody.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Here's the song that we'd like to do for all the younger set of.

[OG]

People, the teenagers and what have you.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

This one's called Vacation's Over. Vacation's over.

[OG]

It's over. It's over.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. Did you miss us last week? Yeah, of course you did. But good news Stacker. We're back with another eight weeks of brand spanking new shows. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And to kick things off, there's a headline ripped from the popular press. I'm reading the headline now. Habits that destroy middle class retirement Dreams. Destroy middle class dreams. That doesn't sound like clickbait, does it? Today we'll help you rebuild those dreams by walking through what this piece says you should fear and put that clickbait in reverse so you can build a happy retirement. Plus, we'll answer a question from one stacker who asked a question on some other financial forum. And today, back by popular demand, we'll share a second opinion. They didn't ask for it, but we're giving it. Wait all that a TikTok minute and my incredible trivia. Go ahead and do it. Yeah, go ahead. Just pinch yourself. And now two guys who are certain diversification means having more than one streaming subscription. It's Joe and. Oh, Juju.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

J.J. you know, there's like positive correlation and negative correlation. There's also positive diversification and negative diversification. Negative being you got too many subscription services. Hey, everybody. Welcome to one subscription service for the win. I am Joe Saul Sehi and this is the Stacky Benjamin Show. So happy you're here with us. Sit back, relax. Because the guy who always looks relaxed on a Monday is here with us today. Mr. OG joins us. How are you, brother?

[OG]

Aren't you supposed to get all the subscriptions? That way you can watch all the TV all of the time with all your eyes. It's like a vtsax and chill of subscriptions.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I thought it was called subscribe and chill.

[OG]

Yeah, I have all of them.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Because what happens if Apple TV goes down or Netflix goes down or Disney goes down?

[Doug]

That's actually the one I could live without is Apple tv. I could live without that one. And yet I get it for like as part of my cellular Verizon subscription. So if I were to cancel one, it would be that one. But why should I? Because I'm not paying extra for it. But that's annoying.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

We just bought a new Apple product, so we have a free three months that we're going through. But I had canceled it. And to your point, Doug did not miss it. There's not much cutting the cord on lots of these things.

[OG]

Just after your Friends and Neighbors was a great show. The morning show was a great show. Obviously I'm a little behind.

[Doug]

Morning show season one was good. Friends and Neighbors was mildly entertaining, but I would have been bummed if I didn't missed it. Tehran, I know you raved about the.

[OG]

Gorge was this awesome movie.

[Doug]

No.

[OG]

Did you even watch it?

[Doug]

I watched part of it.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Hey guys, we got a podcast to do.

[OG]

Yeah, no, I'm a bigger fan of arguing with Doug about his stupid TV selections.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

He's got just the worst taste. I don't know. We got a great headline today that we need to get to to kick off these eight weeks. Because Doug, I loved it when I shared this with Doug and he put it right in the open. The Number One Habit that Destroys Middle Class Retirement Dreams.

[OG]

Yeah, it's a good news. Is that there's only one thing your.

[Doug]

Life will be miserable pretty quick.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It's called the Number One Habit that Destroys Middle Class Retirement Dreams. There's something really funny to kick off that whole segment that we'll get to. But before we get to any of that and the Tik tok minute and Doug's trivia and our second opinion, man, we've got a couple sponsors who make sure we can keep on keeping on and you don't pay for any of this. So we're going to hear from them and then OG Doug and I are going to look at the number one habit that destroys Destroys Middle Class Retirement Dream Dreams Save Yourself this episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. With rising housing prices and steeper mortgage rates, we know homeownership may seem too expensive to be achievable. But that's why we offer a Home Buyer's Choice Loan that can open the door to affordable homeownership. Our Home Buyer's Choice Loan has no down payment options available, which means you don't need to wait years to save money. And with our no refi rate drop, you might be able to lower your rate in the future without refinancing. Plus, while most lenders require borrowers to purchase private mortgage insurance unless they can make a 20% down payment, we don't require PMI. Finally, we offer fixed payments, so your monthly payment will always be the same. So if you're looking for your first home or your next home, you can open the door with a Navy Federal Homebuyer's Choice loan. Visit navy federal.org to learn how you can achieve home ownership. Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission. Terms and conditions apply. Equal Housing Lender Loan subject to approval and eligibility requirements. Learn more@navy federal.org Huge savings on Dell AI PCs are here and it's a big deal. Why? Because Dell AI PCs with Intel Core Ultra processors are newly designed to help you do more faster. It's pretty amazing what they can do in a day's work. They can generate code, edit images, multitask without lag, draft emails, summarize documents, create live translations. They can even extend your battery life so you never have to worry about forgetting your charger. It's like having a personal assistant built right into your PC to cover the menial tasks so you can focus on what matters. That's the power of Dell AI. With intel inside, with deals on Dell AI PCs like the Dell 16 plus, starting at $749.99, it's the perfect time to refresh your tech and take back your time. Upgrade your AI PC today by visiting Dell.com deals that's Dell.com deals.

[OG]

Hello, darlings. And now it's time for your favorite part of the show, our stacking Benjamin's headlines.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I feel like the way we're saying it should be the number one habit that destroys middle class retirement dreams. Sunday, Sunday, Sunday.

[OG]

Makes me want to get a recliner.

[Doug]

Why?

[OG]

Why does this ad make me want to buy a recliner?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It's all gotta go. Lydia Kibbet wrote this one. I don't think she wrote the headline because I think the mission was to talk about different habits that might mess up middle class retirement dreams.

[OG]

But whoever ring to it though, doesn't it? Please read my article of the different habits that might slowly mess up your middle class retirement habits.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Right.

[Doug]

There are some things you should contemplate.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Per chance because the headline says the number one habit and they proceed to give us five. That's when you know there was no communication between whoever wrote the title.

[Doug]

The headline editor's job was on the line. They get measured on clicks.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I gotta say something.

[Doug]

Yep.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

For many middle class Americans, retirement's a time to finally enjoy the life they've dreamed of. Unicorns, Rainbows. I added that in. But too often.

[OG]

Nice writing so far.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Certain habits sabotage those dreams, leaving many stressed out about money instead of enjoying their freedoms. The word was freedom, but I put freedoms. While some of these habits, like overspending, are obvious, others are harder to spot until it's too late. Here are the top four. Oh, I said there were five. Well, that was me. Clickbaiting stackers. You're waiting for a fifth one. There isn't one. Huh? That's how we get you. Right there. Okay, number one on this list. Let's dive into what destroys middle class dreams. OG Number one. Carrying high. Yeah, carrying high interest debt into Retirement, does that destroy middle class retirement dreams?

[OG]

It destroys everything all the time.

[Doug]

All dreams.

[OG]

Paying interest is awful. And having payments. I think having payments is worse than paying interest. I mean, I get that. Paying interest, you buy something for $100 and you end up paying $400 for it. That is really crappy. But when you think about how much the payments and how they compound and how much money you have to make in order to pay the taxes on the money that you make to have money left over in order to have money to pay the payments, how much work do you have to do to be able to afford all of the monthly payments that you have in your life? If you have a mortgage or you have a heloc, or you have a car payment, or you have two car payments, you have student loans and you have credit cards. And so you add all those things up and go, all right, I'm spending whatever $5,000 a month in all that. Like, that. That's. That's all stuff that I bought. And I get that there's good debt and, you know, whatever, and I need a car and okay, fine, you know what I'm talking about. So you got five grand, you got to make 60. Well, now you got to pay taxes, so that's really 80 or 82. But there's benefits in your 401k. You got to make like $90,000 or $80,000 a year just to make your minimum payments. And that's not putting food on the table for you. That's not having any fun. That's not saving any money. You know how they have that chart or that graph that shows, like, when do you pay the irs, Right? Like, you earn all your money all the way to, like, March. Tax free IRS money.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, it's closer to mid April now.

[OG]

Yeah, I mean, of course it is.

[Doug]

Look at OG bringing the sunshine.

[OG]

I was like, do that with your. Do that with your cash flow. Like, look at, like, I make 180 grand a year, and my Debt Freedom day is like, August 9th. Like, I get to finally put food on people in August.

[Doug]

You're worse than the article headline.

[OG]

Yeah, well, stop paying payments, People destroys.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Isn'T a strong enough alliteration.

[OG]

It destroys everything.

[Doug]

Maybe OG wrote this article.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It totally does destroy everything. It's funny, on a podcast recently, I accidentally talked about, what if you get a 10 rate of return? And the host corrected me and said, oh, I know there's people screaming at their device going, no, no, no, 7 or 8% rate of return, right? Like, if you're planning and I went.

[OG]

Okay, do you know the last. So I saw this stat the other day. We use 10% as the S and P. But what's been the real S and P return? Not real inflation adjusted, but like what's been the actual S and p return since 1950?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

For a while it was 10.2, but that's been higher now, so it's got to be over 11.

[OG]

Yeah, that's I think 11.8 in the last 75 years. And people are like you 7, right. 10 is conservative. 11 is what's actually happened.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, that'll never happen again.

[OG]

Oh yeah. 75 years is not a sample size big enough for you yet. I understand.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, here's my point. OG around credit card debt with this is that, you know, people like, oh, 11 point something, whatever, 10, whatever. And you should use seven. Seven is realistic that you're going to get seven.

[OG]

Okay, yet.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yet a credit card puts in writing 28.5, they are guaranteeing themselves 28.5 on you. And we're like, oh, back it down, back at that. Not 10 or 11. Like that's ridiculous to get 10. Or it isn't ridiculous for Chase, it isn't ridiculous for City or Capital One. And we happily sign up for more and go, oh, you know, it's not that big a deal.

[OG]

I need dot, dot, dot second on.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

The list of things that destroy retirement. First one was right on. Second, lacking a tax strategy for withdrawals. Just kind of going at your money willy nilly when you're taking it out.

[OG]

OG is that a willy nilly destroyer?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

What of middle class retirement dreams?

[OG]

Everybody thinks it's fun when willy's all nilly with everything, but then when you do it with your withdrawals, it's not so great. I mean at the end of the day, if you don't have an idea around where the breakpoints are. I've been reading some articles recently about how you can get so much. How much money in dividends can you earn in a year without paying income taxes on it and not knowing what that number is or how does Social Security and pension, if you're fortunate enough to have that factor into your tax bill and where the other income should come from? And some of this is stuff that you set up 25 years earlier, which is when people say, well, should I put all my money in my Roth or should I put all my pre tax, Should I put it all in my brokerage account? And the real answer is the best strategy is to have a bunch and everything. So you've got a ton of flexibility on an annual basis of where you can take money from based on how the year is going. You know, if you have a big withdrawal year because you have a big expense and you need to take a little extra out, well, it'd be great to take that last little bit out tax free and not take it out at 24% taxes if you have that flexibility, or if you have a low income year and you can say, well, or low expense year. I only need to earn just my Social Security, a little bit of dividend income, and I'm good for the year. I don't have a bunch of expenses this year. You know, you take that out of the dividends of your brokerage account and you know, you don't pay any taxes and that keeps your Medicare premiums low and, and so on and so forth. So there's lots of give and take with all of these different things. And if you have only one bucket, you're limited in your choices. So the time to kind of prepare for that is, you know, when you're 30 or 40. Although if you're 60 and just thinking about it, there's still a few things that you can do in terms of saving money in the different places, but you're not going to have as big of an impact.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, setting this up when you're young, for all our younger stackers, this is a great idea. It's the reason why my bias. If you're going to have more of one of the three sides of the tax triangle, the Roth is going to give you a lot of flexibility later. However, you might want some pre tax today, which is why I think, Coach, you talk about having some here and some there. And of course, the third corner of the triangle is the taxable brokerage account, which gives you ultimate flexibility. You can do whatever you want. You're just going to pay tax maybe as you go, if it pays dividends, and then you're gonna pay a tax when you sell. But you can sell whenever you want. You don't have to worry about any of the tax shelter gotchas that are behind the Roth or the traditional retirement plans that are out there. I think there's two things really to focus on here. Number one is your tax bracket. What tax bracket are you in when you're pulling money out, and where's the line for the next tax bracket? So as you're pulling money out, number one. And then number two, oh, gee, there's these, you know, these gotchas from the side. Right. Tax On Social Security and irmaa, I think those are two kind of side gotchas that a lot of people, if they don't have any tax strategy, if Willy Nilly is doing whatever, will, he's.

[OG]

Doing your tax stuff. Willie's taking your money out.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

He'd be crazy with your taxes. Third on here is treating a home as a retirement plan. Does anybody really do this anymore?

[OG]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I felt like when I was a young advisor, I heard this all the time. Maybe it's not that I'm in, you know, in meetings with people like I used to be, but the number of times there, people go, well, what I'm going to do, see, I'm paying off my mortgage early, and that is my retirement plan. I'm not using that thing at work. I'm paying off house early.

[OG]

Yeah. I don't think it's so much that it's one or the other. I see people who are fallen into it. It's not. It wasn't a plan going in. Like, I can't wait to have this thing paid off because then I'll have all this equity that I can use for later. It's more like maybe at the very beginning of that decision, 28 years ago, we were overextended in our payments because we bought a house we probably shouldn't have at the moment, and that's, you know, barely. Our lips were above water. All we could afford was paying our house payment. And then that transitioned as the years went on. We had that lifestyle creep. Still no money to save because lifestyle creep happened. But I was making progress on this house. And, oh, by the way, I happened to have bought in a pretty good area that exploded in value. I bought this house for 500,000, and now it's worth 2.2 million. And now we're thinking, well, dang, this thing's almost paid off. Two million bucks. Pretty good money. So I think the struggle that people have with this is it sounds great on paper, but selling the family home to fund your retirement is a little bit more mentally painful than people think it is. And the alternative, like borrowing against it with a heloc, requires a payment, of course, and a credit score and the ability to repay. And then doing a reverse mortgage is kind of the last resort. I think it's a fine option for somebody that's in that situation, but it's very unattractive, you know, rates and terms, because, you know, the bank's going to get theirs, right? So be far better to sell it, buy something much smaller and a Much lower cost of living area and then have the, have the asset, you know, have the equity, you know, in your investment account, if that's the way you're going. But I think that's a great plan when you're 50. And then when you get to 60 and you go, do I want to sell the house? I mean, the grandkids are about to start coming over and we got that nice pool, you know, so it sounds like a great idea until you have to execute. It has been my experience with that.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

The fourth on this list. Well, as a lead in. Do you guys want to live to be a hundred? Doug, do you want to live to be a hundred years old?

[Doug]

I don't think quite that old. No, I don't think so. I may not have a choice, but I, I think I'd probably, you know, 86 seems like a good number.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

OG how about you live to be 100?

[OG]

I want to live to be 140.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[OG]

I want to see my kids turn 100 and just think that'd be cool.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

That's funny. According to the Nationwide Retirement Institute, they had a survey recently that showed 29% of people. I don't want to live to be 100 either. So Doug, it's funny. We're 33% of this panel, 29% want to live to be 100. However, 75% of people fear living their saving. The last one on this list is maybe one of the biggest ones, OG which is longevity risk. Right. The fact that you will live to be a long time. And here's some of the numbers. This is amazing. A 65 year old today has a 75 chance of living if you're men, to age 78. So 65 year old living another 13 years, women living another 16 years. 75 chance. If you're 65 years old today.

[OG]

How about 13 whole years?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Wow, 13 years longer than 65. 75 chance. Well, it reduces to 50% to live to 85 if you're a man. So if you're 65 today, you have a 50% chance of living another 20 years. Women 88 years old. And here's the big one. If you're 65 years old right now, you have a 25 chance of making it to 91 if you're a man and 93 if you're a woman. Those are some pretty good odds that you, you may see a hundred. OG Much better than it was for generations before us.

[OG]

Yeah. And, and a lot of that obviously is health and some of its luck and timing and all that other sort of stuff as well. But this is why from a planning standpoint, we use 100 as kind of a baseline number for a plan, because statistically, like you were talking about here, Joe, a couple who retires at age 65, that's healthy and nonsmoker, one of them statistically is going to live to be 92. And that checks with what your numbers say or what your.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

With what we just had individual study.

[OG]

Your more recent study. And so if it's a 50% chance of a 50, 50 shot of somebody being 92, you know, I get that 92 year olds don't always live to be 93, but some of them turn to be 93. And the 93 year olds, not all of them turn 94, some of them do. So you can't prove to me that 100 is an unrealistic number. The other side of this, though, and we've talked about this, I don't know, several weeks ago, was or is that if you're too conservative in that planning, then is that the right way to think about it? Conservative? If you're too conservative in your planning, you're going to underspend throughout your entire retirement life and not do stuff.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You have to keep some growth in your portfolio.

[OG]

You got to balance it out. That too. But I'm saying, like, because 92 is, let's say 92 is the 50, 50 number for a couple. If you're saying, well, I plan it to be 100 and then you kick the bucket at 88 or 86, like Doug's number is, you have a lot of money Left for those 14 years we were planning that. You're not using that. You could have used from 65 to 85. And so I think constantly reevaluating where you are and evaluating your health and the people around you and that sort of stuff to get a sense of, you know, how are we doing on our spending versus our longevity. And this is where sometimes those longevity annuities come in, where it's like they defer until 90 and then kick on. It's like, spend all your money. Because at 90, we kick on this other stream of income that pays you from 90 to 100 if you're still alive or whatever the case may be.

[Doug]

Oh, gee, is planning for 100 become the norm now across the financial planning industry? And the reason I ask is because I think we have a lot of people who are stackers, who listen to the show, who are doing it themselves, which is great. That's part of what we're hoping, or excuse me, helping some of our audience to do. But if that's become the norm in the industry, should people who are doing it themselves also change that denominator of life expectancy?

[OG]

Well, I think that it's probably even between 100 and 110. Life insurance companies go to 120 as kind of their back end number where at 120 you win if you still have a life insurance policy. At 120 they go, we're out. Just here's the money. We're not playing. We can't. Some of them used to be a hundred, but now they, they've changed it to 100.

[Doug]

They show up at your front door with that big giant check.

[OG]

Yeah, they're like congratulations with balloons. Ed McMahon comes out of the grave.

[Doug]

Out of, out of the grave. Yeah.

[OG]

No, like a big skeleton of Ed McMahon. Some people will get that joke. Not many people.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Not many.

[OG]

Not the younger, not younger stackers. Not the younger stackers. Who's Ed McMahon? I think 100 is the minimum. Honestly, I think 110 or 120 is probably a, a good number also.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, I do think for planning purposes, basing your planning on higher than average life expectancy, I think is a prudent thing to do. I think it's an incredibly prudent thing.

[OG]

Sucks to plan to 90 and see 91.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Right?

[Doug]

So much, so much of life expectancy has to do with health care in your ear, like your first 12 years of life. And so our younger stackers have an incredibly likely. I think it's very, very likely that they're going to live that long. A lot of the numbers you were talking about, Joe, were based on if you're 65 now and, and healthcare has only improved for people who are now 35 and 40.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, sure. I remember the numbers from 20 years ago, Gail Sheehy's numbers about longevity then and thinking, oh my goodness, the number of people could live to be a hundred. And these numbers are way more optimistic than, than Gail's were back then.

[OG]

Well, I'm kind of curious and I don't, and I'm not, I don't really know how this all works, but when they say, like, hey, if you're 65 or whatever, and they say the life expectancy of a male in the United States is 77 years, does that take into consideration, to Doug's point, the 0 to 12 year olds who, infant mortality and all that sort of stuff. And once you take that out, it's a much bigger number. I'm not Sure. I thought I had read something about that. My grandfather was born six days ago in 1919. Now he's passed away, but he was 97. And you think about all the stuff that he had to go through as a child that doesn't even exist anymore. Not just the disease and all that other sort of stuff, but just the hard life. How hard was it to be a 2 year old in 1921 versus a 2 year old in 2025? So to your point, Doug, there's the, the health care that happens in the first dozen years of your life and how that affects it. I think there's also some longevity stuff. And if you look and you say, well grandma lived to be 80, like grandma was born in 1920, bro. Yeah, like how old would grandma live to be today? You're going to be that grandma in 2020 where people are like, oh yeah, my grandma was born in 2004 or whatever. It's like, think of all the healthcare advances and the rate of change there.

[Doug]

I think you're going to be climbing the MATTERHORN when you're 78 years old.

[OG]

Time magazine had a thing in the early 2000s that said that they thought based on healthcare rates have changed that the first baby to be or the first person to be 200 had already been born. That was a Time magazine article.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

No, yeah, it's so important. I think the strategies here on this one again, planning on a higher than average, longer than average life expectancy. I think delaying Social Security for 99% of us. I see this woman on TikTok all the time saying don't delay your Social Security. I think everything we just talked about says you should. Yeah, Social Security creating some income floors. You talked about longevity insurances OG for late in life. I think we talked earlier about withdrawal strategy, you know, not being willy nilly.

[OG]

With your strategy in your nilly.

[Doug]

God.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well look, and then I think planning your health care in that long term care. We've had a lot of great questions lately from stackers on past episodes about long term care. I think that's super important. I thought the headline on this piece as you guys can tell was ridiculous. But I do think that the piece itself, not too bad from go banking race. We'll link to it in the show [e-mail] they destroy your retirement. Coming up, the second half of today's show we go into potpourri mode. We had one piece that we talked about the first half of the show. Well now we're gonna do our tick tock minute we have a second opinion for a stacker in the back porch. But before that, we always take a quick break for Doug's trivia questions so you can be smarter than everybody else at the virtual water cooler on Zoom. Doug, what do we got today, man?

[Doug]

Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mobs neighbor, Doug, and today we're celebrating the birthday of a famous singer and now entrepreneur. I'll share clues and you tell me if you know who who this Benjamin Stacking woman is. While she's not known by this name, she was born Alicia Beth Moore in 1979 in Doylestown, Pennsylvania. She joined several bands in the Philadelphia area as a teen. But it was in 2000 that her career began to move with the release of her first album, can't Take Me Home. But it was her second album, misunderstood. I think I said that right. There's a Z in there and there's exclamation points. But it was in 2001 that turned her career into a rocket ship. She's received multiple Grammy awards for her music and Billboard even called her woman of the year in 2013. Today, when not touring, she works in her Santa Barbara based vineyard. Okay, stackers, who is our mystery woman? I'll be back with the answer right after I go dye my hair. What color should I go with you.

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[Doug]

Hey there, stackers on punk rock trivia purveyor and guy who knows punks don't use the word purveyor. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Today we're talking about a birthday woman who's an award winning singer and songwriter and who owns a winery in Santa Barbara County. Who is she? Well, that would be none other than Pink. Big fan of the show. She is. Pink's a fan of the show, Joe.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Of course she is.

[Doug]

That's amazing. Happy birthday, Pink, from your friend Doug. The first appetizer today at the Sizzler is on me because I know you're probably a little tight on money right now. And now two guys who are just like a pill, Joe and OG so fun.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Pink working in the winer. Could you imagine working alongside grapes like.

[Doug]

Lucille Ball stomping grapes. Did you like that? I mean, that's a classic episode that, you know, even it's way before all of us, right, The Lucille Ball thing.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

But we've all seen the fur Easy.

[Doug]

But it, it comes up occasionally, like on reals or whatever, where Lucille Ball in one episode and whenever they film the show, 1915 or something, but they're in Italy and she's in this huge wooden vat of grapes, stomping grapes. And there's another woman in there who's Italian and Lucy doesn't speak Italian. And allegedly they got into a real fight. Like if you watch that clip, they're like smashing grapes into each other's faces. That was a real fight that they just let it run because they were like, this is great tv. But check it out next time if you want to see, I don't know, early version of mud wrestling on tv. Maybe the first episode ever. You can cut all that. I just thought that was great trivia. It is, trust me, it's great. I know.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

And on that note, it's time for our tick tock minute. This is the part of the show where we shine a light on a tick tocker who's either saying something brilliant or air quotes Brilliant. This one was sent to us from Stacker Colin. Colin. Well, I won't tell you what Colin says about this one, Doug, before I ask you if Colin sent us brilliance or air quotes. Brilliance.

[Doug]

Yeah. No, Kyle, I mean Collins generally are pretty smart, actually shockingly smart people as a whole, if your name is Colin. So I think this is really good.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, let's see. Did Stacker Collins send us something brilliant today? This is actually a YouTube short, so. Same same, but on YouTube. Let's, let's hear what this guy is talking about, which is some exchange traded funds you should hold for the rest of your life.

[TikTok Narrator]

Only pick four ETFs to hold forever. Here are the four of the safest ETFs you can buy in 2025 and hold it for life. The first one is VTI. This one gives you ownership in the entire US stock market. That's every major sector, every big player. So think Apple, Amazon, Tesla, all in one fund. It's average at 8 to 11% a year over the last decade. And as the economy grows, BTI grows with it. The second is VO. This tracks the top 500 public companies in the country. So think Microsoft, Meta and JP Morgan. Returns are solid here at 10 to 12% per year on average. With one's QQQ and this one's tech heavy. So think Nvidia, Apple and Google. It moves quicker and the swings are bigger. But the upside has been massive, 18% a year over the last decade. If you believe in AI, automation and the next wave of disruption, then QQQ is your bet. Number four on the list is ibit. IBIT is all about Bitcoin exposure. It's designed to give you straightforward, efficient access to Bitcoin through an ETF structure. With ibit, you get to participate in Bitcoin's upside with lower hassle. If you believe Bitcoin is digital gold, then IBIT is your simplified play.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh boy. So he gives us four VTI, Voo, QQQ, and Ibit three of the first four probably own 65% of the same stuff. Maybe 70% of the same stuff. But hold these forever. Why don't we do ourselves a favor and pick one of those top three and then just throw the rest into your bitcoin and you're good.

[OG]

I'm trying to think of a fun analogy here, but I was thinking let's have a peach pie and some peach cobbler. And they're all different. I don't know if you guys know this or not. One has a little extra sugar, one has a little extra crust, but one time the crust is crumbled up and added with brown sugar and all mixed.

[Doug]

Together, it's all different. That's what I want.

[OG]

I know, me too.

[Doug]

Give me that one.

[OG]

So they're all kind of the same. I think the return numbers are a little misleading. I mean, seems a little misleading in.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Most markets and for most investors. I'm using the top two of these fairly interchangeably. And then the third one is just if I want it just slightly spicier. Right. If I'm buying the NASDAQ and tech, I'm still getting large companies. I'm still getting some huge companies and still getting.

[OG]

It's the same stuff that's in the S and P. It's still going to.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Go up and down.

[OG]

I would much rather see a small company position here. I would much rather see some international fun fact about digital gold. I love that analogy. Since 1980 because why not use 1980? Seems like a reasonable time frame. Gold has returned about 4.4x give or take, since 1980. And the consumer price index since 1980 is about what?

[Doug]

What do you think about 4.4? 4.4.

[OG]

Weird. 4.4. So it's a great hedge for inflation. Of course, if you take stocks and don't count dividends because why would you want to count those? Stocks are up 51x since 1980. So which one is a better hedge of inflation? The thing that barely kept its lips above water or the thing that is 12 or 13x what inflation is? But I digress. I don't know why that I don't know that gold and bitcoin are at all related to one another in any way, shape or form?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, and we've seen and there still isn't enough data on crypto to paint a full picture yet. Like it's still becoming more evident every day as we get back testing. But man, it sure moves. Sure moves a lot when the stock market moves. OG yeah, Doesn't Seem to be the huge diversifier that people were hoping for.

[OG]

Yeah, I don't. I don't know what to think about it.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Let's pivot to a segment we have not done in a while.

[OG]

Called some people.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You ready?

[OG]

Get that one too.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It's time for us to give a second opinion. You remember this sound effect? Second opinion.

[OG]

Okay.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You thought the beginning was doom and gloom. Destroy right there.

[OG]

Second opinion of some coffee here, so make it snappy.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I was in another online forum and of course I don't understand why people go to another online forum instead of mom's basement to ask questions like this.

[Doug]

How many online forums are you lurking in?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Several. And they eat your soul. Questions like this. So SNXFX and SCHX through Schwab have split. Doesn't matter. By the way, for the purpose of the story, what those are, you don't have to go look up what they are. All right. Per shareholder meeting quote, shareholders will receive 10 shares in exchange for every one share they currently own. The distribution yield is 1.1368% for SNS, SNX FX. So I'll have to claim the distribution is earning. I now have 7,044.08 shares that I'll have to pay taxes on this. I have to claim this on my income tax every year's distributions. Should I be reinvesting this money somewhere else? The shares have split, OG and the person is worried that now they're going to have to pay taxes. Well, let's give them a second opinion. How many taxes are due OG when.

[OG]

A stock splits, the question is, do I owe taxes because it went from 100 to 10 or 10 to 100.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

The way it was worded. It's a very long question, but the way it was worded was I think I'm screwed because now I have to pay a ton of tax.

[OG]

No, that doesn't have any effect. Your cost basis is adjusted equally. And if you were getting $2 a share of dividends and you get a 10 to 1 split now you get $0.20 per share of dividends. You get the same amount. The company didn't make or lose any money by doing this. They just made it more affordable for people to buy. Actually, I think you're going to see less stock splits in the future because of fractional shares. Most of the reason companies make their stock price the way they can kind of control that was because it made the most sense or a normal lot of purchases was 100 shares. So back in the old days when you said Hey, I want to buy a lot of Apple. It didn't mean a lot like one word. It mean it was two words, a lot, which was 100 shares of Apple. So if Apple traded to 500 bucks a share, now all of a sudden you got to come up with 50 grand to buy a hundred shares. Well, if Apple stock was trading at 50 bucks, then your hundred shares would be 5,000.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Right.

[OG]

It was a lot easier.

[Doug]

So it was basically like retail pricing for what the market would bear is the reason they would do it is to create a more palatable price.

[OG]

Yeah, it was an easier number to swallow. Right. It was like, oh, I can buy $2,000 worth of this stock and I get 100 shares. Or yesterday I could buy $2,000 worth of stock and I got 10 shares. Feels better to have 100. I don't know why, but it just. Right, yeah, it was just, you know, the gummy bears are smaller but you have the same poundage of gummy bears.

[Doug]

That's what the dollar store Dollar General does, that they just reduce the quantity of gummy bears in the bag.

[OG]

Yeah. So I think you're going to see that less. I don't want to say, you know, a lot less because I said lot, but I think you're going to see that happen fewer times in the future because you could buy fractional shares now on most brokerage platforms. So the affordability issue doesn't much matter. Although there's a little bit of a psychological issue here. But no, at the end of the day when you get a stock split that doesn't do anything to anything, that's just a big non event. It might freak you out for a second because it takes a half a day to update the systems across the board. So you might see that you have a 99% loss in your portfolio on one position for a few minutes and that'd be like what happened? But it'll all get adjusted later. So no additional taxes on stock splits. Now if a company buys another company out. And so that's what I thought you were talking about, Joe. I thought this was two companies and one bought the other one and they were giving some shares and some of it was, you know, now that's a different scenario.

[Doug]

Right.

[OG]

If your company gets bought out and in exchange for that buyout you get some cash or you get some dividends or you get a number of shares for the new company and some cash, then there could be some taxation there perhaps, but that's a different thing.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, this is just stock splits. Schwab doing splits with a couple of their different funds. So good news. Good news for nobody because you have the same amount of money that you had before this.

[OG]

Same amount.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

But it does sound really cool when you get it. Wait a minute. I'm gonna have 10 chairs. Cha Ching. Oh. Bottom line didn't change. Thanks for sending that in. I gotta thank Julie who sent that to me and said, hey, you might want to go take a look at this so that you can give a second opinion. I just need an excuse to play. To play the sound effect again. Let's move you out in the back porch. This is the community part of the show. And Doug, we've had some community involvement lately.

[Doug]

Yeah, thanks for the cue, Joe, because one of the things I want to talk about is stacker Janelle, who did something that we often ask stackers to do. She wore her T shirt to. Well, basically out in public, but she did it to campfire. I know how much you love campfire. It sounds like an amazing time. So thanks, stacker Janelle, for wearing a Stacking Benjamin's T shirt. We want to see more stackers with photos of themselves. I was going to say in cool places, but you know what? Grocery store is pretty cool. Snack aisle. That's a great spot, right? The car wash, wherever, man. I just want to see Stacking Benjamin's T shirts. We've got some new ones that are out, right, Joe? It's a great new logo we've got. The T shirts are super high quality, I hear. I don't have one yet. That's not something that I'm. I'm. I'm afforded here as a member of the Stacking Benjamin's team. But I'm told that they're super high quality T shirts. We want to see more people like Janelle out in public with their Stacking Benjamin swag.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

We may have an announcement coming up about Stacking Benjamin swag shortly. We may. We may.

[Doug]

One thing I know it's not going to include me.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Of course, it all. Could you. You'll get to say it.

[Doug]

Oh, good.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Duh.

[Doug]

That'll be fun.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Perfect. But, Janelle, I hope you had a great time at campfi. I know that she mentioned that she heard about campfire here on the show. You go to campfi.org and sign up. I know I'm signed up for one next year already to head back to campfire. So I'll be at Minneapolis on Labor Day weekend with my son Nick again. Just signed up to join my friend Stephen and probably 45 other fun money geeks just exactly. Doug's looking at me like, the same way. I thought about Camp five before I went. I'm like, yeah, a retreat center that's made for middle school kids.

[Doug]

You get those watery eggs where, like, when you look at the tray, like, the whole front edge of the tray is just full of that nasty water that leaks out of the powder.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It's like going to camp. You're like, yeah, no, I'm sorry. I'm bougie than that. And then I went and I had a blast. It was super, super fun. So anyway, campfire. Good times.

[Doug]

Speaking of money geeks. And this happened a couple of weeks ago now in the basement. But I got to point out Falcon Horowitz.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Oh, this is great.

[Doug]

Just sounds like a kid who wore his, like, leather biker jacket to his piano lessons. I met.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I met Falcon in Las Vegas. And Falcon, you know, Doug just described you perfectly.

[Doug]

Is he the. Is he the rebellious grandson of Vladimir Horowitz? He's. Falcon's a badass with a name like Falcon. And he posted in the basement what I thought was one of the nerdiest money posts. And here's what I love about him. He said his wife texted and said, can you heat up some chicken broth for me? And his reply was, is that where chickens save their post tax retirement money? You're killing me, Falcon. Oh, my God, you're killing me. And I posted nerd, as was required. Right? Like, I didn't have a choice but to post the nerd. But Philip. Philip M. Had the right response. Like, he just. He won the Internet that day when he said, I believe that is where the term nest egg originated. I'm like, damn, Philli.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Philli is also my kind of person. Which means both Falcon and Philip get the from Homer. Awesome. Fantastic stackers. Thanks for being you. You guys make this so, so, so fun. And if you know somebody that needs to know the top four things that destroy retirement middle class dreams, or you need to know a little bit about what diversification is and what it is. And it might not be having three large company stock funds and a bitcoin fund if they need that, or if they need to know who the singer is that owns a winery in Santa Barbara, I think they need to know that, too. Well, refer them to this episode. We end this episode the way we end every stack of Benjamin's episode by asking Doug, Doug, what should we have learned on today's Willy Nilly Show?

[Doug]

I wish you hadn't said that. First, take some advice from our headline Your retirement nightmare. Let's change that. If you plot out a course, save money into accounts at work if possible, make your own if not, and then course correct, you're well on your way to retirement dreams. Second, stock splits. If there's no gain, you won't owe any taxes. Relax. But the big lesson, whenever you're talking about taxes, be sure to remind Joe's mom to put a coin in the swear jar every time she says bad words, because that jar fills up in a hurry. This show is the property of SP Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025, and is created by Joe Sal Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh, yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Sam, yesterday Cheryl and I went and saw a movie. Guys, this stars a gentleman named Austin Butler and a woman named Zoe Kravitz. And it's called Caught stealing. What the hell happened?

[Doug]

So environment.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Drink them if you got him.

[OG]

Let's go back to your place.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

You can take advantage of my poor judgment.

[Doug]

I depend on your poor judgment.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I want to know if I can take this seriously. What do you need to take a seriously? Come on, kids, get it. Sorry, Miss Kitty.

[OG]

Oy. What are you doing, geezer? Is that the best you can do? I've got to fly back to London.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I need you to take care of my cat.

[OG]

Hello, cats.

[Doug]

I like dogs. Hey, is Rush home? Who are you?

[OG]

Ah, what's the baby man who did this to la?

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Get what I want or my Cristo talk for me. So even with with the audio, they set that up beautifully. Austin Butler plays this character who has just a decent life going on. He's a bartender and he's got a great girlfriend. They're making out in a hallway. The old woman tells him to get a room, and his neighbor says, hey, can you watch my cat? He's like, sure, yeah, you got to go back to. He's got to go back to London because his dad is dying. And so he takes care of his neighbor's cat. And the second he agrees to take care of his neighbor's cat, all of a sudden a bunch of gangsters show up and they're trying to kill him. And he has no idea why. So he's trying to avoid being killed while taking care of this cat. No clue why everybody wants a piece of him. It's by director Darren Aronofsky, who's done so many phenomenal movies. And a lot of Darren's movies start off, I mean, are. Are small projects. Like he just takes this little slice of life and, you know, not a marquee. You probably haven't even. Maybe haven't even heard of this movie. It's just so good. It's just they take this little thing, this little idea, and they nail it. And those are often my favorite movies. Not where they have this huge, huge budget and this monster, monster, you know, thing going on where they're trying to save the world from all these superheroes or whatever it might be.

[Doug]

No.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Dude's just trying to figure out, why the hell does everybody want to kill me. There are so many bit parts by phenomenal actors in this. I think Darren Aronofsky is kind of the same director that maybe a smaller version of Wes Anderson where once people have worked with him, they want to be in his movies, you know, so you see all. In fact, there is a. There's even at the very, very end, I think it might be in the credits. This character that you've only heard on the phone over and over and over turns out to be Laura Dern. And you only find it out during the credits that it was Laura Dern. These two guys that are part of the Jewish mafia are big time actors that you've seen on huge TV shows. There's just all of these phenomenal actors all over the show. The script is great. It is tight. It is a violent movie. This is an incredibly violent movie. But different than I've complained about in the past where, you know, some of the superhero movies, I'm like, oh, my God, just a gratuitous fight scene. I truly don't care. Every fight scene and every person that dies in this movie and a lot of people die in this movie is worth it. The stakes are high. And caught stealing. Caught stealing. It's funny. It got an 84 on the critic score and it got an 85 on the popcorn score. The audience popcorn score.

[OG]

Like they were almost.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

They were almost exactly the same score. It's. It's because it's. What you see is what you get. And by the way, what would I give it on a scale of 1 to 100? Probably about an 85. Thought it was really, really good.

[Doug]

IMDb it's at a 7.3 out of 10 on IMDb, but usually there's a. Is an inverse ratio between the critics score and the popcorn score. So it's pretty rare that they line up like that. I'm not a huge Austin Butler fan. I think he's just okay. I know they're trying to make him the next thing. And so as you started to describe this as soon as you said his name, I'm like, probably not going to see this. But then you kind of pulled me in and the. You know how much I love trailers that have all the sound effects when we play those. That's my favorite thing that we do.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, yeah. That's why I did some of the.

[Doug]

Lines, like, let's go back to my place and take advantage of my bad decisions, or I depend on your bad decisions. That's a great line. And then you talked about, you know, kind of British mob type movies. I'm a sucker for those. So, yeah, I might have to put this on the list.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Well, and just to be clear, it's not British mob. This is going to be New York mobs all coming together. There just happens to be a British neighbor who's got to fly back to London because his dad is dying.

[Doug]

Well, here's the other thing. The description of this that I'm seeing right now on IMDb says, burned out ex baseball player. Boom, I'm in.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

Yeah, yeah. And there's. There's some backstory going on there, but just the idea that he's got to take care of a cat and all of a sudden everybody's chasing him. Like, what the hell's going on? Is. Is really good. And so it starts off kind of. It's funny because somebody asked us at dinner last night, they said, so would you classify this as a dark comedy? And Cheryl and I looked at each other and we said, yeah, really, really, really, really, really dark. Like, unbelievably dark.

[Doug]

Sounds like a Guy Ritchie movie.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

It is very closely related to Guy Ritchie. It's not as snappy dialogue as. It's a little more subtle than a Guy Ritchie. I mean, Guy Ritchie is a little over the top, right? So this is a little less over the top, a little more subtle, but, man, good stuff. You guys will both like this movie. I think you both, like, caught stealing.

[Doug]

All right, put it on the list. OG.

[OG]

I have nothing to add.

[Joe Saul Sehi]

I can neither confirm nor deny that I might like this movie.