How to Talk to Kids About Money (Without Making It Weird) SB1806

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: How to Talk to Kids About Money (Without Making It Weird) (SB1806)
Date: February 20, 2026
Host: Joe Saul-Sehy
Guests: Liv Roeder (senior in high school, host of The Live Lab), Karen Holland (founder of GiftingSense.org), John Lanza (host, Art of Allowance podcast)

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Overview

This episode of The Stacking Benjamins Show revolves around family money conversations and how to make talking to kids about money natural, insightful, and empowering rather than awkward. Host Joe Saul-Sehy gathers a unique roundtable: a high school senior and podcast host (Liv Roeder), a youth financial literacy advocate (Karen Holland), and a parent-focused money educator (John Lanza). The panel shares personal stories, practical tools, and concrete tactics to help parents teach healthy money habits without overwhelming or alienating their children.

Tone: Fun, practical, open, and encouraging, staying true to the Stacking Benjamins approach of making money talk both approachable and meaningful for families.

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Highlights & Key Insights

1. When Does Money “Feel Real” for Kids?

Timestamps: 13:00–19:51

• Liv Roeder: Money becomes real gradually—through experiences like getting an allowance, making independent choices, seeing family financial decisions, and participating in “grown-up” conversations.

  "What I want has a cost...I can't buy everything I want in a day. Money isn’t just a number; it has value." (13:05–13:31)

• John Lanza: Childhood memories of allowance tied to incentives (stopping thumb-sucking for a Lego set) underscore that intent doesn’t always match results. Long-term consistency is essential for learning.

  "The intention of what parents wanted, which often happens, right, with what really ends up transpiring." (15:22–15:51)

• Karen Holland: Her mom took a proactive approach, giving responsibility early. Learning through limited resources ("Plan beats no plan") and being forced to make tradeoffs built real-world skills.

  "My mother could have given me another five or ten dollars, but she held her ground..." (16:23–17:39)

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2. The Power of Modeling and Gradual Responsibility

Timestamps: 19:10–24:55

• Kids pick up more than parents realize, especially from everyday financial behaviors, not just explicit conversations.

  "The quickest way to move the conversation from can I have it? to is it worth it? is to offer to split the cost."
  —Karen Holland (19:10–19:30)

• Allowance serves as a way to shift decision-making control, letting kids learn through low-stakes mistakes, and reflecting afterward (e.g., “circle back technique”).

  "The hard thing...was giving my kids the ability to mess it up and not say anything, letting them go ahead and make the bad decision."
  —Joe Saul-Sehy (19:51–20:55)

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3. How Kids Actually Hear Money Conversations

Timestamps: 21:35–25:47

• Liv expresses the complexity and at times intimidation of money subjects (e.g., college forms, taxes).
• Experience and observation (“modeling”) matter more than formal schooling for behavior change.

  "Experience is number one, but learning from what the parents are doing is probably number two."
  —John Lanza (22:39–23:53)

• Honest conversations about resources and choices (e.g., weighing public vs. private college) foster awareness and empathy, not just guilt.

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4. Engaging Kids of Different Ages: What Works

Middle Schoolers:

Timestamps: 26:34–29:19

• They’re more attuned than they seem; conversations should happen when they show interest or bring up needs.

  "The perfect time to talk about money is when your kids want some."
  —Karen Holland (28:09–29:19)

Age-Appropriate Involvement:

Timestamps: 31:44–36:22

• Don’t shield kids from all financial stress; involve them appropriately so they feel included and can help with solutions, which reduces anxiety and builds empowerment.

  "Kids want to participate in the solution for the family."
  —John Lanza (31:44–33:10)

Tackling Jargon & Intimidation:

Timestamps: 34:19–36:07

• Jargon in finance is intimidating; contrast with other subjects that teach vocabulary routinely. Familiarity breeds confidence; involve kids in real-world meetings when their interest arises.

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5. Focusing on Values and Feelings, Not Just Numbers

Timestamps: 37:14–41:25

• Generosity can be a soft entry into money conversations, but spending is kids’ first real interest—so teach mindful, values-based spending.
• Use regret and satisfaction as teaching moments (e.g., using Gifting Sense’s DIMS score to anticipate and avoid buyer’s remorse).

  "I'm not in the feel bad about spending business. I'm in the think more about spending business."
  —Karen Holland (39:14–39:23)

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6. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Liv Roeder:

  "No matter how much I restrict myself from a Target, if I go and buy something, I'm going to feel happy. But it's all about this trial and error." (44:28–45:44)

• Karen Holland:

  “The speed at which we make decisions now is so much faster than it used to be, and it’s not because the species has evolved—it's our environment.” (53:42–54:50)

• John Lanza:

  "We all interact with money based on how it makes us feel." (39:32–40:54)

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7. Tactics by Age: Building Money Skills "Without Making it Weird"

Early Elementary (6 yrs):

Timestamps: 46:25–47:45

• Start with allowance and three jars (spend, save, give).
• Make money non-taboo; let kids make basic decisions and even negotiate.
• Take advantage of kids’ readiness and interest (money = getting what they want).

Middle School:

Timestamps: 48:59–49:54

• Frame decisions around tradeoffs, delayed gratification, and opportunity cost.
• Practice foundational skills before high-stakes decisions.

  “Practicing making tradeoffs, practicing making choices... We want middle school students to have foundational skills and awareness.”
  —Karen Holland (48:59–49:54)

High School:

Timestamps: 50:04–51:33

• Real-world application through part-time jobs, managing their own income, experiencing independent choices and consequences.
• Parental involvement shifts to guidance and reflective questioning, not control.

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8. Digital vs. Physical Money, and the Power of Pausing

Timestamps: 52:07–54:50

• Physical cash and jars remain valuable for teaching young kids because of the tangible experience, even as digital tools become more prevalent.
• Pausing and reflecting (“mindful spending”) is a transferable skill, and with minimal infrastructure, kids can surprise parents with their maturity.

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9. If You Could Build Only One Skill…

Timestamps: 55:41–57:09

• Liv: Awareness—track earnings and expenses, reflect on spending, recognize patterns.
• Karen: Think before you buy—practicing the pause.
• John: Save a bit of every dollar—building the "pay yourself first" habit.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Joe Saul-Sehy:

  "The hard thing about the allowance for me as a parent was giving my kids the ability to mess it up and not say anything, letting them go ahead and make the bad decision." (19:51)

• Karen Holland:

  "The perfect time to talk about money is when your kids want some. That's when they're all ears." (28:09)

  "I'm not in the feel bad about spending business. I'm in the think more about spending business." (39:14)

• John Lanza:

  "We all interact with money based on how it makes us feel." (39:32)

  "Physical moving of things into different jars... you're trying to teach them about making choices." (53:42)

• Liv Roeder:

  "It's reflecting and being aware of how much I spend and how much I'm making. So I'd say awareness." (55:41)

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Key Takeaways & Actionable Tips

• Role-modeling and "learning by doing" are more effective than lectures.
• Early and gradual exposure—from “what do I want?” to “how do I negotiate my first salary?”—helps kids become confident money adults.
• Empower your kids by involving them in financial problem-solving as is age-appropriate, especially during tough times.
• Pause for reflection! Slowing down financial decision-making builds habits that fight the impulse-driven, frictionless spending environment children are growing up in.
• Let kids fail in small ways, then reflect. These "mini failures" prime long-term financial wisdom.
• Start with tangible money habits (physical cash, jars) and add digital tools as children mature.
• Involve kids in real money situations only when interest arises. Don’t force lessons—curiosity and buy-in are crucial.

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Memorable & Practical Moments

• The “circle back technique”—let the child make the choice, then revisit it after some time to discuss if it brought value.
• Splitting the cost is a great way to move the conversation from “Can I have it?” to “Is it worth it?”
• Kids in workshops are capable of calculating the value of nearly anything—even the cost of buying Greenland.
• The highest-return money habit? Building conscious awareness (of cash flow, tradeoffs, savings, and emotional “return”).

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Segment Timestamps (selected)

• Introductions & Panelist Backgrounds: 1:38–7:41
• Stories of When Money Became "Real": 13:00–17:46
• Modeling & Allowance Lessons: 19:10–21:13
• How Kids Hear Money Conversations: 21:35–24:45
• Age-appropriate Conversations & Involvement: 26:34–29:19, 46:25–49:54
• Handling Jargon & College Money Anxiety: 34:19–36:07
• Generosity, Values, and Buying Less: 37:14–39:23
• Teaching with Digital and Physical Money: 52:07–54:50
• Essential Money Skills: 55:41–57:09

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a playbook for families wanting to raise financially literate, confident, and resilient kids. The greatest gifts parents can give: modeling strong money values, letting kids learn through small stakes, and keeping conversations open, honest, and empowering. As Karen puts it, “Plan beats no plan”—so start planning those chats, and let the kids lead whenever they’re ready.

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For more tools and tips from this episode:

• Liv Roeder: The Live Lab podcast
• Karen Holland: GiftingSense.org (with DIMS score calculators for smart spending)
• John Lanza: The Art of Allowance podcast

Links to all recommended tools and topics can be found in the show notes at StackingBenjamins.com.

Transcript

[John Lanza]

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[Karen Holland]

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[Joe Salcia]

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[John Lanza]

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[Liv Roeder]

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[Karen Holland]

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[Liv Roeder]

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[Liv Roeder]

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[Joe Salcia]

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[Liv Roeder]

You're gonna end up eating a steady

[Karen Holland]

diet of government cheese and living in a van down by the river.

[Doug]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and how do you talk to kids about money? On today's special roundtable discussion, we pair a family money podcast host, a kids and money expert, and a senior in high school to talk all things families, money, discussions, and important lessons. And now, a guy who raised two kids of his own who somehow turned out okay. It's Joe Salcia.

[Joe Salcia]

I can't tell you guys how long I've been waiting to have this conversation. So let's meet the participants that are gonna help us have better family conversations. First of all, let's go to the woman who. Who I've been working with closely for the past year. She is a senior in high school about to transition to college. Say hi to the person behind the Liv Lab. Believe it or not, her name is Liv. Crazy Liv. Rotor's here. How are you, Liv?

[Liv Roeder]

I'm good. How are you? I'm so excited to be here.

[Joe Salcia]

Well, I'm so happy that you're here. And as you know, we've been planning this for a little while, you and I. But tell everybody about your awesome show that. That our mutual friend Doc Chi introduced me to, which led to you and I spending a lot of time talking about our podcast together.

[Liv Roeder]

Yeah. So I host the Live lab, and it is all about careers and setting yourself up as you get into college. And even after college, it's a live lab, so, like, we're figuring out life together. I in no way am like, a professional or know what I'm doing. We're just exploring together.

[Joe Salcia]

I absolutely love that, and I love the questions you ask and Isn't it cool that you get to ask some of these pros in different areas, all these personal questions that you wouldn't be able to ask in real life?

[Liv Roeder]

Yeah, I love it and I love it so much because I get to meet so many different people. I get to meet people in finance like you, and then people in various different careers. And just recently I talked to a communication specialist. I got to talk about communication. So it's so fun.

[Joe Salcia]

It is. It's super fun. And every episode is a new adventure. So it's a live lab. By the way, we're going to link to all these awesome folks stuff on our show notes [e-mail] just a couple months ago you heard from this woman on the show. She is the brain behind the incredible Giftingsets. Org Karen Holland joins us. How are you?

[Karen Holland]

I'm good, Joe. How are you?

[Joe Salcia]

I'm, I'm fantastic. And I'm so happy you and I got to work together November. And what fun it was helping you get the word out about your amazing tool and the work that you do and also kind of to beat up on our friends Joel and Matt a little bit.

[Karen Holland]

Well, it was a lot of fun. It was probably the biggest, most intensive podcast experience I've had. I enjoyed sharing snippets with my husband and son.

[Joe Salcia]

And for people that don't know about you, maybe they're new to the stacker world. Karen, tell everybody about the important work that you do in teaching kids maybe to make better decisions about money.

[Karen Holland]

Well, I'm really excited to hear about the live Lav Lib because I think that you and I are totally aligned because here's my dream scenario that when people go to negotiate their position in their first starting salary pay band, they're so comfortable talking about money that they can do it with total ease and comfort. [e-mail] we help people, parents, teachers, community leaders, any adult help their kids, students, scouts, whatever it is, learn to think before they buy. And the reason we do this is because early success with pausing, gathering information and reflecting before spending money really primes the demand pump for the more sophisticated financial information you need later in life when it's relevant and helpful. But the thing is, you don't start with that conversation, right? You don't start saying, now tell me about the starting salary pay bands and where do I sit in them and how do I move through them? That's not the conversation you start with. The conversation you start with is, what do I really want? How much Is it going to take? What trade offs do I have to make and how much my own money am I willing to spend? Like the smaller questions. Right, but all of those smaller questions have one goal in mind, which is to prepare you to be super comfortable asking the big questions when they matter.

[Joe Salcia]

That is specifically, Karen, why we're so happy we were able to partner with you. Your time working with the families and the kids that we're going to be talking about today, I think it's going to be super valuable for our stackers today. Just like Liv, your experience of the last 18 years is going to be super, super helpful to our stackers. And you know, I needed the guy who talks about this on a wide band then to be a part of this conversation. Because while I talk about this as Stacky Benjamin's from time to time, he's talking about families and having these conversations nonstop. What would this conversation be like without my better looking, smarter brother by another mother? He's. He's the host of Art of Allowance podcast. John, Lance is here. How are you, man?

[John Lanza]

I'm good. The checks in the mail, Joe, for that wonderful intro. I appreciate that.

[Joe Salcia]

I've been shaking because I haven't talked to you in about six months. So how have you been?

[John Lanza]

It has been quite a while. I've been great. And now, Karen, I have to say we actually, we were telling jokes about starting salary pay bands at the dinner table last night. So I don't know, I think that just is something we like to do. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

[Karen Holland]

Well, I wondered if your ears were burning on Monday and Tuesday because I was at a school and a lot of the kids were kind of convetching that they didn't get allowance. So I was telling the teacher in charge of the grade eights, I'm like, okay, there are two great books. Art of Allowance, the Wisest Investment. I'm like, it doesn't matter if they give allowance for chores without chores, whatever. Just like read these books. They'll really help you because, you know, money's like everything else. You got to practice to get better.

[Joe Salcia]

Well, and what's cool, John, that I think about your podcast is when I first heard the name of your podcast, I thought it was all about giving allowances, but it's Art of Allowance, which is a much bigger. You've got this double entendre there on purpose, John.

[John Lanza]

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And it's one of those things that the book kind of was. Put the book out there. But the podcast has really brought it to life. Having conversations with you, Joe, with Karen. Maybe at some point we'll have live on. It's taken on a life of its own because I learned something new in every conversation and that's what makes it super fun. And then you kind of bring it all back together and hopefully today some of that I can make some coherent points that might be useful to, to some stackers out there, but I'll let them be the judge.

[Joe Salcia]

I think you're going to be able to do that. I could predict that ahead of time that I think that that's, that's going to happen. Another thing I can predict is that not only are we going to have a great discussion, we have a few sponsors that help us make sure that we can podcast and none of this cost our stackers any money. So we're going to hear from them right now and then we'll come back as John, Karen and Liv dive in to help us have better family money conversations and help our kids, our nephews, our nieces, neighborhood kids make better money decisions. Well, if you own a house, you know that it's amazing until it's not. And I'm laughing because you don't want to cry right one minute you're sipping coffee in the next year, ankle deep in water from a burst pipe. I've been there. Repairs don't care about timing and they definitely don't care about your budget. Regular homeowners insurance usually doesn't cover a lot of that. Day to day wear and tear, plumbing failures, H vac breakdowns, electrical issues. You're often on your own for those. And what's frustrating is a lot of the time we're right in the middle of beginning to build that emergency fund that we need and we haven't done it yet. And so we don't have that built in protection. We don't have anywhere to go. And that's where homeserve comes in. It's like a subscription for your home for as little as 499amonth. They've got your back. Because repairs hit fast and hard. You could be searching for a contractor in a panic or you could already be on the phone with home serves 24. 7 hotline scheduling the repair. It's super simple. You choose the plan for your needs and for your budget and for the piece of your emergency fund you still don't have. And when something on your plan goes wrong, you just call their 247 hotline and and you start the repair process. What I love is that they have 4.5 million customers and a 4.8 out of 5 post repair rating and an A plus Better Business Bureau rating. This is the real deal. Getting your home repaired is not an option. Having protection in place is something I will always endorse. And having a company with the background of HomeServe in your corner, well that is a hundred percent what I'd use. Help protect your home system and your wallet with HomeServe against covered repairs plan start at just 499amonth. Go to HomeServe.com to find the plan that's right for you. That's HomeServe.com not available everywhere. Most plans range between 499 1199amonth. Your first year terms apply. Uncovered repairs. See HomeServe.com for details. I've worked in so many different fields. University development, water treatment, financial planning, Podcasting. While there might not be much of a through line between any of those jobs, you know what you always need is the right person for the job. Getting hiring right. That is a skill that you want to master quickly and that you need good partners around you to help you. Do you want to match the right candidate with the right job with Indeed Sponsored Jobs? If you're hiring well, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post even seen on other sites. You'll match with quality candidates with Indeed sponsored Jobs. Get matched with and hire quality candidates that can drive those results you need regardless of the type of business you're in. Target your post to candidates that meet your specific criteria like your skills, certifications, the location Sponsored Jobs Boost your job post for quality candidates so you can reach the people that can help your business thrive. Plus, with Indeed sponsored Jobs, you only pay for results. That is a boost whenever you need to find quality talent. And if you learn anything from Stacking Benjamin's Headlines, you'd know we need data to support our argument. Well, how about this piece of data? Sponsored Jobs posted directly on Indeed. 95% more likely to report a higher than non sponsored jobs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all the boxes. Less stress, less time and more results now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs and because you're a stacker, you're going to get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.compodcast right now and support Stacking Benjamin's by saying you heard about Indeed right here Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the right way with Indeed. Let's just start with some stories about, you know, money and communication and. Liv, I think I'll start with you. When you think about the first time money felt real in your life, like really you had this aha. That it wasn't just about mom or dad buying something or some relative bringing something to the table. It was money. Do you remember that? Do you remember where you were, what was going on?

[Liv Roeder]

I don't think it was one moment specifically, but I think it was just like a gradual. As I grew up, my parents never had the sit down conversation of, hey, here's how money works. This is what it was. It was more gradual when I started getting allowances, when I started spending my own money, when I started realizing, okay, what I want has a cost. I can buy everything that I want in a day. When my parents were like looking at different houses to buy when my brother went to college, saying how expensive college is and understanding that money is, it's not just like a number, but it has like value. It has like a price tag. So I think it was like a gradual progression, understanding it.

[Joe Salcia]

When did your parents get a new house?

[Liv Roeder]

For one period of time, we were looking at different houses. We ended up staying in the same house, but then we were looking at million dollar houses. We would tour houses, and then I would see the coolest house ever, this amazing house. And I was like, guys, let's buy that. That's such a cool house. They're like a bit over a price budget. I was like, what do you mean? This is so cool.

[Joe Salcia]

It's funny because I think a million dollars in the Bay area doesn't that. Buy a Subaru down by the beach and you sleep in the back.

[Liv Roeder]

It's tiny.

[Joe Salcia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Liv Roeder]

Getting smaller.

[Joe Salcia]

It's not much. John, do you remember when money really felt real to you?

[John Lanza]

You know, I. The one thing I remember in particular with my parents and money was they wanted me to stop sucking my thumb at like age 7 or 8, right? I was like, Linus Van Pelt. And I'm walking. I probably have to explain that Liv's gonna be like, who's Linus Van Pelt? Do you know Peanuts Live? Yeah, it's a great comic strip.

[Liv Roeder]

Yes, yes, yes.

[John Lanza]

Anyway, I was sucking my thumb, so they decided they were going to bribe me by getting me a Lego helicopter. At the same time, they started an allowance with that and the whole thing just kind of went. The copter went down like it was Blackhawk down. Like everything that they had this idea that they were trying to make happen. Which was allowance and bribery. And my parents were wonderful. But we never really got the money conversation off the ground from a young age for some reason. And that's kind of stuck in my memory. So it's part of the reason that I kind of got into this whole idea of allowance because you have to kind of commit to it on a longer term basis. And we didn't really get that opportunity to do that.

[Joe Salcia]

It's interesting to me that for Liv, you know, Liv, it felt like your early discussions around money, it was choice and kind of you kind of felt the money pressure, you know, of the family deciding, your brother going to college or buying this different house. And for John, I think it's interesting, like, the intention of what parents wanted, which often happens, right. With what really ends up transpiring. Karen, what was it for you that you remember early on?

[Karen Holland]

Well, you know, I had a very different experience. My mother was a kindergarten teacher, and she was pretty deliberate about everything. I know that Tim Geithner is credited with Plan Beats no Plan. But I always like to tell everybody. I'm pretty sure my mother said it first.

[Joe Salcia]

So Tim got it from your mom.

[Karen Holland]

Tim got it from my mom. And the summer between seventh and eighth grade, she had. I have a twin sister. She had my twin sister. And I make a list of everything we thought we needed to, you know, go into grade eight loaded for bear. We went to town. We made this huge list. We thought it was super comprehensive. And we added up all the money we needed to buy that. And she was like, okay, no problem. And she gave us that amount of money, which I think it was $79, which at the beginning of grade eight, like, why not a million, right? And they were kind of like, why are we even going to school? We're loaded. Okay. Of course, she was so smart because she knew $79 was not enough to get all our back to school clothes and G or her Smells Terrific shampoo and Bonneville Lip Smackers. And I blew it. I bought a pair of burgundy penny loafers. Burgundy finally back. What is it, like, 60 years later? Right? Burgundy's made a big comeback this winter. Then I couldn't do anything. I couldn't go to the movies. I couldn't get pizza when it was pizza day in the cafeteria. And I think back to, you know, my mother could have given me another five or ten dollars, but she held her ground. And then when you become a parent, you realize how it is to hold your ground. Like, trust me, Liv, your parents are somewhere going, like, is she going to be okay. Like we really want to give in, but we know if we give in, like it doesn't serve her long term. Like it's so hard. I give her so much credit because that was kind of the beginning of the end. And ever since then, we just. My sisters and I can stretch a dollar like nobody. We have one girlfriend who says, you two are Olympic dollar stretchers. And she goes, and I'm not talking

[Joe Salcia]

silver or bronze, gold values and choices.

[Karen Holland]

Mom really taught plan beats no plan.

[Joe Salcia]

So money intentionally is spoken in your house. Then it sounds like Karen, like mom very intentional about it live. It sounds like parents involving you guys in some of the big decisions. But you and your brother didn't have sit down meetings with your parents to talk about money at all.

[Liv Roeder]

I don't think it was like a sit down, but I think they just served as role models in general and like the way that they spent and the way they saved. Since I can remember when we would get money from birthdays or from grandparents or for Christmas, I've like always had a bank account. So then we would walk down the street to the bank account, drop it off, and I would always get this little receipt of how much money I had. And at that time it was just like a number. I didn't understand the value, but just doing that practice over and over. And then I remember one day it hit my mom was like, oh, why don't you save some of that money? Instead of putting it in your bank account, why don't you spend it? And I was like, what? Like, no, like I spend your guys's money. My money goes to the bank, your wallet goes to the store. And my mom was like, no, it's like your money that you can spend sometimes. So it was small moments like that. And then understanding some of the money I want to save up because I like when the number on the ticket from the bank goes up, but then some money also I get to save and spend.

[Joe Salcia]

That is funny because we were having this discussion the other day that when it was my parents money. Oh, that was. That was great. But it was the first time my parents was like, well, you can spend your money. I'm like, whoa, wait, what are you talking about here?

[Karen Holland]

You know, when we run parent child workshops or when we give talks at schools, we say all the time, the quickest way to move the conversation from can I have it? To is it worth it? Is to offer to split the cost. Because kids spend their money very differently than how all of a sudden you're like, oh. Hmm. Maybe not.

[John Lanza]

Yeah. And I think that's one of the best parts about allowance that parents realize is that when you're shifting the locus of control from you making the decisions to the kid making the decisions, they have the same kind of realization that Liv had, which is, it's my money now, and I'm going to spend it much more smartly than I would have spent your money.

[Joe Salcia]

John, I think the first time I ever talked about our allowance with our twins was on your podcast. The hard thing about the allowance for me as a parent was giving my kids the ability to mess it up and not say anything, letting them go ahead and make the bad decision. Although I think, and Karen, we'll get into your tool in a second, which I think really would have been forward thinking had that been around. When my kids were young. My daughter, I remember one time she bought something at Target that clearly was going to sit on the floor. She was going to use it. One time she was buying something that was just trash. And as a parent, I knew it and I was going to tell her not to do it. And it took so much courage for me to just sit back and let her buy it and put on my calendar for two weeks later to circle back and go, hey, where's that thing you bought? And that was, for me, very, very difficult to do. Because, Karen, I think you said it earlier, you really don't want to see your kids. It's so hard to hold back and to not do that.

[Karen Holland]

I don't. One way I always make the kids laugh in workshop is I'm like, okay, I've got news flash. Your parents kind of dig. Yeah, they actually really want you to be happy. Like it's a blue ribbon day for them when you ask for something and they can say yes. It's actually really hard to have these arguments all the time. Not a good time for them.

[Joe Salcia]

Yeah, not at all. Grounding kids, so frustrating. Live. I have a question for you because you're. You're closest to the ground on this one. When adults talk about money around kids, there's things that adults think that kids hear versus what kids actually hear. What are kids actually hearing when they hear their parents talk about money?

[Liv Roeder]

I don't know. I think that's a hard one. But for me, I think how complex it is sometimes. Sometimes when my parents bring up money, it seems kind of straightforward or simple. And maybe that's also because they don't talk about it as explicitly. But then to go to college, you need to fill out all these Forms, like the FAFSA forms in the CSS forms and the FAFSA one, I kind of get by on my own. But then there was this other form. The amount of, like, terms and, like, numbers on there and, like, symbols and different questions, I felt lost. The amount of numbers on, like, tax reports, I, like, feel lost. And I think just understanding the complexity, it's like I can even wrap my head around that. So in a way, I would say that.

[Joe Salcia]

Were you picking up more, though? Like, your parents are having a financial conversation. Let's say you're driving down the road. Parents are having a financial conversation in the front seat. Are you picking up more about what they're talking about, about money than they think you're picking up on?

[Liv Roeder]

I think sometimes, yeah. But I don't know, John.

[Joe Salcia]

You talk about this type of stuff with a lot of guests. You think kids are picking up a lot more of what parents are laying down than parents expect?

[John Lanza]

I do think so, because I think the key way that we learn as kids and money, or key way all of us learn is through experience. But the second key one, since I already threw my parents under the bus, and if they listen to this, I'm gonna feel real terrible.

[Joe Salcia]

I do want to be in your memoir, John. They'll be in your memoir.

[John Lanza]

They were fantastic role models. So I could see the modeling of frugality, which was great, right? So at least maybe I can get some credit back with my parents. But the main thing is your kids are watching that, and. And there's actually research that says, you know, experience is number one, but learning from what the parents are doing is probably number two. I actually think school is probably number three in terms of actual behavior change, not necessarily in terms of knowledge acquisition, but in terms of behavior change. And so they are very much picking up on what you're talking about, especially just your sense of money. Like, are you positive about money? Are positive about wealth? Are you negative about wealth? Those things, I think really do imprint on kids. But I'd be curious, Liv, did money ever. Did you. Did you get a more positive sense of money or a negative sense? And how did that change over time? I'm curious if that had any of those kind of feelings.

[Liv Roeder]

I think overall I had a positive way, a positive sense about money. It was like a tool. Like, my parents were never crazy frugal in the sense that money isn't something that you should spend. It's only saving, saving, saving. But they also always had it mind that it was saving. So I think growing up, yeah, it was overall positive and we would have nice things, we would go to nice dinners, we would go on vacations, but it was never that. Scarcity wasn't something that we didn't have to worry about. There was always a limit. And especially now when my brother goes to college and now I'm going to college, it's like this conversation, oh, how much does a college that you apply to? How much does a college that you're going to cost? If this is a safety school, is such a high price tag worth it? If it's a better school, how can we make it work? But I think overall it was a positive sense in the sense that it's both something that you should save and spend. So finding that balance, do you feel

[Joe Salcia]

pressure to choose a college that is more affordable? Let's say you've got two choices. One, that is a private school costs a lot more money versus a public and state school.

[Liv Roeder]

Definitely 100%. My parents might say, oh, yeah, well, if you get into this good school and it's X amount of money, we would still support you. We can pay for it. But it's also like, I don't want to screw them over, you know, like, this is money that I'm taking away from, like their future, their retirement, what they want. I have goals, but they also do. And if there's another school that costs a lot less, then I'm not going to just say no to that one because there is this other school that I like more. So I think, not that there's this sense of guilt, but there's just like the sense of what's the price tag I'm looking at?

[Karen Holland]

You know what? That strikes me as a really healthy sense of awareness. That's exactly where I would want my daughter to be. You get it? You're not going to make a choice based on price alone because those choices don't work either. But you are price aware. I think that's spot on.

[Liv Roeder]

And like you said, split the half if I were to pay because thankfully I'm in the position where my parents are offering to pay my college tuition. But if I were to need to pay half of the tuition, damn. Like, would the college I go to, like, would that look differently?

[Joe Salcia]

That is an important question.

[John Lanza]

Good question.

[Joe Salcia]

And it's a wonderful question to ask Karen. I'm thinking about the age that your tool is squarely aimed at middle schoolers. Our wonderful intern, Debeney, she does some help working with middle schoolers and she was telling me yesterday how much she dislikes it because she said that they just aren't interested. And I was a guy that met my spouse coaching middle school track, and I remember thinking that when I first started working with middle schoolers, that they weren't interested at all. And I found out through three wonderful years, they're hella interested.

[Karen Holland]

You got to keep it real. You got to keep it real.

[Joe Salcia]

100 they're in, and they're hearing about comments about rich people. You know, people say, quote, rich people, or how their parents are talking about their jobs or if there's any stress around vacations or holidays or Liv's talking about, you know, going to college. They're feeling every single feeling. They're just not showing it on their face. I think, like a lot of parents,

[Karen Holland]

what we like to say is most family arguments about money really stem from answering the question, what's the big deal? Right? What's the big deal? I just want to do whatever. When you take a few minutes, pause, gather information, and reflect, everybody's singing from the same song sheet. And you know what the big deal is? Like, you take the example of just an afternoon at the movies. I promise you, the big deal is not the $10 movie ticket. It's the fact that you need another $20 for popcorn and soda, and you have to get to the theater and back safely, and your parents might have previous commitments. So it's just getting everybody to understand what the other person has to contend with to execute this transaction. And the beauty of that is when it happens, all of a sudden, the kids are like, oh, right, I forgot Graham had soccer. We had to take Nana somewhere. I'll see if so and so's parents can drive. That's all it takes. Just walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

[Joe Salcia]

What about carrying the piece of human development? You know, sometimes you'll see parents explaining to a kindergartner the logistics of why we can't do X because I don't have money in the bank account. The kindergarten, it's way over their head, right? On the other hand, you see people treating seniors in high school like Liv, like they're a kindergartner.

[Karen Holland]

You're like, maybe.

[Joe Salcia]

Maybe you should be involving them a little more. How do you know as a parent that you are getting that connection? Especially with some middle schoolers that don't show it on their face.

[Karen Holland]

I always like to take the lead from the kids. Like, people are always asking me, what's the perfect age? And I'm like, there is no perfect age. I do, however, think there's A perfect time. And the perfect time to talk about money is when your kids want some. That's when they're all ears. That's when they're going to be much more amenable. So the question often dictates how sophisticated the answer could be. It's funny, I was just at a school earlier in the week and at middle school students, and they wanted to start a financial literacy club. And wow, you should have seen the mandate they gave themselves. I mean, I'm not sure Jerome Powell could have handled this in 12 weeks. And I was like, okay, okay. I'm like, you guys are in grade eight. How about we try this frame? Why don't you think back to when you were in grade five? What did you want to know about money? What were you curious about coming into middle school and you're going to high school next year. What would you like to know about money going into high school? Why don't we try to frame the club around answering those two sets of questions? Take your lead from the kids in

[Joe Salcia]

the second half of today's discussion. What I want to dive into first is kind of a continuation of where we left off. And John, I'll let you think about this during the break, which is because I'm going to start with you because you've had a lot of these conversations, which is this messy piece, right? Is it better for kids to see money work or to see money worry with parents, or is it better to shield them from it? So we're going to start with that when we get back. Then we're going to go age by age. How do we begin talking? Having this conversation, Karen, that you're talking about with kids, maybe, you know, how do I introduce them to Money Concepts? 4, 5, 6, 7 years old? What do we do then? And then middle school and then high schoolers, and we'll also live. We're going to dive into your transition. Like, as we help kids leave the nest, how do we help them become more responsible adults? So that's coming up in just a moment.

[Liv Roeder]

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[John Lanza]

Spritz du joy nosq?

[Karen Holland]

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[Liv Roeder]

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[Karen Holland]

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[Liv Roeder]

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[Karen Holland]

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[Joe Salcia]

Mic drop. You ready? Let's do it.

[Liv Roeder]

Hosted by former Navy SEAL Mike Ridley.

[Joe Salcia]

It's unfiltered. You know, you go to the sound of the gun, bam, you're gone.

[Doug]

It's weird.

[Joe Salcia]

I mean, I've had so many near death experiences. It's raw. I love this country.

[John Lanza]

I offered my life to serve this nation and protect its people.

[Joe Salcia]

The question what's the meaning of life? And to me it just boils down to one single word, which is purpose. Mic drop. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.

[John Lanza]

Hey. Hey.

[Karen Holland]

This is Tiffany Grant from the Money

[Liv Roeder]

Talk with Tiff podcast. And when I'm not sprinkling business and

[Karen Holland]

money gems everywhere, I'm stacking Benjamins.

[Joe Salcia]

I am super happy for the second half of this conversation and really to talk tactics with different age groups. But John, I posed this question before the break. If you're worried about money, is it okay? From all the conversations you've had with so many guests, what do they say about if you're worried about money, if you're not sure you're going to make the rent payment or, you know, you're not sure if your retirement's okay, is it okay for your kids to see your money work or to see you worry about money?

[John Lanza]

Well, you do have to handle it in an age appropriate manner if you're worried about making the rent. You don't want to scare your five year old. But I think the best thing you can do is that first of all, kids are going to know if something's up, right? Because they're going to feel your stress. I mean, I'm sure Liv can attest to this. Like if things, if your parents are stressed, you know, they're stressed, even if they're trying to hide it from you. Actually, the hiding is probably part of the reason that you sense that they're stressed. One of the best pieces of advice I heard from a counselor one time and I'm forgetting who it was, but I thought it made a lot of sense, which is that just involve the kids in the issue. For example, if you are between work and your income is down, you can talk to your kids about the fact that we may not be able to, you know, go out to dinner or we might have to cut back on certain things and we might want to. Actually, I remember, Joe, you saying that you did this with your kids where you incentivize them to use less energy in the house by paying them, I think, half of the savings on the bill. It's that kind of idea, which is the kids want to participate in the solution for the family. So figuring out a way in, an age appropriate way to recognize they're going to see that you're worried and then they're going to be a part of the solution to get you to bridge this gap from. We're very concerned, so we're going to get the ship headed in the right direction again.

[Karen Holland]

I really like that, John, because one family therapist told me that all kids want to know is that it's going to be okay. Right. Nobody thinks they're going to live in fantasy land. They know there's an issue and they actually feel empowered when you involve them. And as long as they know that you're going to be okay, you're thinking about a plan. To your point, they can be part of the solution because they do know. And all the secrecy, like what they imagine is nine times out of ten, a thousand times worse than reality. Right?

[John Lanza]

Yeah. You hit on such a key word. It's the empowerment side, because that's really what we're talking about in this whole conversation. Right? We want to be having these conversations with kids as young as possible so that they feel empowered to be able to come up with the solutions like we just talked about. Or in the case that they want something, they have some method of doing it. Gifting sense helps them do that. I always talk about, like with young kids, to your point, Karen, when they get an allowance, the most attentive they're going to be is when they go to the store, they want something and they don't have the money for it. That's when you set a goal. Put a picture of the goal on the jar. And now you're starting this path to learning about how money can be empowering to them.

[Joe Salcia]

And then it gets exciting.

[Karen Holland]

The jargon piece lives. When you said the FAFSA forms are filled with all these acronyms, you know, like the gold standard for measuring whether or not financial literacy works. The economists call it. The intervention works is this thing called a randomized control trial. So they take 20 kids and 10 kids get the treatment, they get the intervention, they get the class, and 10 kids don't. And then 20 years later you compare them, except no parent alive ever wants to put their child in the control group. So it's almost impossible to get a randomized control trial. What I would have loved to have known is if you had been in A mindful spending workshop when you were in middle school and continued to ask questions, if you would have been less intimidated by those acronyms, because you would have had, by this point, years of experience where it's like, I learned vocabulary words in every other subject. Why not personal finance? Because we do find that the jargon's really intimidating. But every subject you take in school has jargon. It's just vocabulary without understanding, right?

[Liv Roeder]

Yeah, I would say intimidating a thousand percent. Like, speaking of finance and all the different investments, accounts, and stocks and bonds and all this stuff, and even the basic stuff, I think often finance can be scary, and it's intimidating. And in class, we don't have that class. We have history, we have English, we have math, we have biology, but we never have anything about finance. So it's these introductions. And even if we don't remember everything that we learn 100%, it's just becoming more familiar with it. I remember once I sat down at a meeting with my parents and their investment guy, and the guy was, like, explaining how investments work. If you would have asked me then to explain it, I would have been a lot more confident. Now I'm like. Like, I wouldn't know what to say. But I still think that helped because it makes me feel more confident about finance. And it's like, well, at one point, I understood 10% of it. So.

[Joe Salcia]

Yeah, wait a minute. So I want to pause right here for a minute because this is fascinating to me, because this is. This is a true, concrete answer to my question about how much you involve kids. Your parents had you go to a meeting with their financial advisor?

[Liv Roeder]

Yeah, it was last year. Not this past December, but the December before, in 2024, I was getting interested in finance, and I was talking about it to my parents because I actually heard it from a podcast before I met yours, about finance.

[Joe Salcia]

Inferior podcast. Some other.

[Liv Roeder]

Before I met the best podcast. There's, like, this mediocre podcast.

[Joe Salcia]

There we go.

[Liv Roeder]

I started getting interested in investing, and then I talked to my parents about it. That's when they were saying, oh, we invest and we do all of this stuff. So then I met their financial advisor, and I was able to hear kind of more about what my parents do. And then I eventually started investing as well. But I think, Karen, bouncing off of what you were saying, the interest started from me was, like, something I was interested in. My parents, like, never dragged them to these meetings. It was always something that I knew that they were, like, doing. And then when I became interested, that's when I got More involved into it.

[Joe Salcia]

Karen, you talk about gifting, generosity and values and how kids can grasp all these different things. I'm wondering often, you know, we start these conversations with budgeting, right? The family budget mom sits down and talks me through the budget. But is generosity maybe a safer and easier place to begin than budgeting?

[Karen Holland]

Well, you know, people always ask us why we focus on spending. And I mean, of course there's way more to being good with money than why spending habits. But that's relevant to kids, right? What do most kids do with the little bit of money that comes their way? They spend it, or they're looking for a way to spend it, or they're hoping to spend it someday. So when we say to them, okay, well, what if we told you there was a way to make sure that however you spend your money, you're going to be happy with that decision? That's the hook, right? Because 93% of kids that we've had in workshops have said they've received a holiday or a birthday gift they did not use or appreciate. So this is happening all the time. And it's not just for financial literacy to combat climate change. I mean, the planet just cannot sustain these underappreciated gifts. We think, oh, it's one T shirt from Shine, one pack of pencil crayons or whatever. But there's 66 million school age children in Canada and the United states. So every 10% reduction in underappreciated birthday and holiday gifts, it's one NFL football field. Let me say it again, one NFL football field. Less of garbage going into landfills.

[Joe Salcia]

I remember my friend Sean Mulaney talking to me about this the first time, talking about just walk into a target, any target, and think about the fact that no matter how well we treat all this stuff, someday it's going to end up in a landfill. And then you see all the targets along the road, the Home Depot next to it and the Lowe's and the Walmart whatever next to it. You go, oh my, that's a ton of landfills. And just I love the focusing on what you value aspect of buying less. Much more than, you know, just quote, being frugal. I think it's so much more.

[Karen Holland]

We say all the time, I am not in the feel bad about spending business. I'm in the think more about spending business. I mean, life is no fun if you never have wants.

[Liv Roeder]

I have wants.

[Karen Holland]

I have lots of pretty things. But I just really try to buy stuff that I'm going to use and appreciate. Because to Your point? Otherwise, it's just on a short path to a landfill.

[John Lanza]

Yeah, well, what's great about that, Karen, is you are a money expert. One of the difficulties that money experts have is they tend to look at money in a very scientific manner, very kind of math oriented manner. And there's an element to that, obviously. But we all interact with money based on how it makes us feel. And the only way we're going to figure this out, because we have to figure it out on an individual basis, is to use it, is to spend it and figure out slowly. Like, that made me feel this way. Spending that money and wasting it on something that went to pot, you know, two weeks later. That was terrible, too. And to Joe's point, he brought up the circle back technique, which is something we talk about now, ever since your podcast, Joe, we talk about the circle back technique all the time, which is a great idea, which is you're maintaining the empowerment. Your daughter was buying. Whatever it was you wanted to step in, but you didn't. But then you gave her the chance to reflect on that purchase. And in some cases, if you use the circle back technique, the kids will be like, that was great. I got two weeks of absolute fun out of that thing. You might have thought it was junk, but it was terrific. In your case, you circled back, and in this, that particular case, it was not good. But the point is the reflection. And the point is she starts to understand how money makes her feel. And you can only do that by spending and purchasing items and just going through life experience.

[Karen Holland]

Okay, I want to be junior podcaster now because I'm the only person here who actually doesn't have a podcast. So, Junior podcaster, you're feeling fomo.

[Joe Salcia]

That's what's happening, Carrie. I want to feel a ton of

[Karen Holland]

fomo, because everybody's got their answer. What is one purchase that you're like, damn, this is the best money I ever spent. I have just used this thing into the ground or it makes my life. Because that's the feeling that I want you to have with most of your purchases. So what's that thing for you that you're like, I have never spent better money than when I bought X.

[Liv Roeder]

Okay. I love, love, love snowboarding so much. I wanted to get a snowboard because usually I rent. My parents and I, we split the cost of a snowboard, and I have definitely not regretted it. Just this past weekend, I went and I was like, wow, this is the best thing ever. So, yeah, definitely my snowboard, Joe.

[Joe Salcia]

Oh, I was gonna let John, go. I put John in the. For people not watching the video, I put John up there because I was hoping that I could hide on that one. For me, it is the money that I spend on. So it isn't one thing, but it is one category of things. The money I spend on board games, which are people that know me, know how much money I spend on board games. But it's because I value the interaction and us sitting across the table and laughing and having these shared experiences together with no pressure. And frankly, a lot of the time, we won't even finish the game because just sitting down in a very relaxed environment allows me, with a group of people I don't know that well, to all of a sudden have a wonderful conversation over, you know, a foamy beverage or a glass of wine or just the game, and we'll get laughing and talking about stuff. So for me, that's my favorite expense that I think some people don't value.

[Karen Holland]

You get high return on interaction for that.

[Joe Salcia]

100%.

[Karen Holland]

John.

[John Lanza]

I like that. I want to go play some board games now. So come on, man, let's go.

[Joe Salcia]

You're all invited.

[John Lanza]

I would say probably my Kindle, because I use it every day and that thing just. The returns have been astronomical. So I love my little Kindle.

[Karen Holland]

Okay, so that's the feeling that I would like most people to have after they've bought most things. I want you to just feel like, wow, this was so great. It does what I need it to do, or it helped the person I wanted it to help. I feel so good every time I use it or I see them using it. That's the feeling that we want to have more often than not.

[Joe Salcia]

And I feel like this is where the DIMS score really comes in. Because, a. If you're going to have that feeling, you can anticipate it ahead of time. And when you do buy the thing, you have built it up enough in your head ahead of time, which you know. Speaking to former Wall Street Journal personal finance editor Jonathan Clements, Jonathan said one of his appearances on Stacking Benjamin's that one of the most delicious things you can do is purchase a vacation way in advance of taking it. Because the fun of anticipation that you get versus if you go at the last minute makes that purchase so much, so much more. But the DIMS score, you're walking through, Karen, all these reasons why I want it. I want. I want it, man. If it meets all those criteria, then you're laughing when you get that thing. Like you're. You're just Absolutely in love with it.

[Karen Holland]

And it's such an easy way to avoid regret too, so many times. Because spending is so frictionless today, right? It's buy first, think later. It's quick. It's just not arbitrary, right? You're like, okay, how often am I really going to use it? How much does sales tax and shipping ad? You know, you go through this whole thing and I'm telling you, I see it every week. Half the time the kids are like, wait a minute. Actually, you know what? Pass.

[Joe Salcia]

Fabulous.

[Liv Roeder]

I love this focus on how it makes you feel because this just clicked so much to me. It's like, not just about, oh, are these jeans? Like $70? Is this X amount of dollars? But it's like how it makes you feel because, okay, I like shopping. No matter how much I restrict myself from a Target, like, if I go and buy something, like, I'm going to feel happy. But it's all about this trial and error. Because if I go and if I see something that I really like and I know I'll use it and I buy it, then I'm going to feel good about that purchase. Yes, it was expensive, but it's something that I use so often. But then there's been several times when they go to the store and I think, oh, my goodness, this is so cute. Okay, and this and this. And I have like five items that I think are so cute. But in that moment, I'm like, they're cute, they're trendy. I'm going to look so cool at school. But then I instead of pausing and thinking, okay, do I need to buy five cute things at one time? Most likely not. Instead of doing that, I kind of just like go to the checkout and it's so frictionless, as you said, just wipe my card and then done, I have it. But then in the end, after a few weeks or so, I'm like, damn, like, should I really have spent that much money? Because now if I want to buy something else, like, well, I already just got so much close. So I love the idea of it's about how it makes you feel. And then sometimes spending more doesn't give you that good feeling. It actually gives you that bad feeling.

[Joe Salcia]

And on those big purchases, like college too. I mean, we spoke about this earlier. You know, Liv, you were talking and Karen, you pointed out all these acronyms and all this stuff. Like, you get time to get comfortable with all of the things around these major purchases. And those acronyms, by the way, never go away. It's not just the FAFSA, you know, we struggle with Roth, IRA and 401K. You know, somebody's listening for the first time. They're like, 401k, I can't run that far. Like no way. That's, that's way too far. It's so frustrating. The acronyms and the jargon that's just built into everyday financial talk. Let's talk about different ages. Let's go to John with this one. John, what does a healthy money conversation sound like with a 6 year old?

[John Lanza]

6 year old? You probably will have started an allowance. When you do that, you really want to be very clear to say, listen, I'm giving you this money. Let's just say it's $6 a week. I'm giving it to you to teach you to learn how to use money, to see how it makes you feel, to get some of the things that you want. And then you put it into like three jars and they start to understand that they have to make decisions when they get money. All you're really doing is just telling them this is money. I'm here to help you. You're going to use this money to get stuff you want to. Karen's point, that's what they care about. What can I, what can I do with this money? And we will talk about it. The other thing I think that's good is surprisingly enough, at that age you can even begin to negotiate with them. If they feel like they want to make a case that they should be getting $7 a week, great. Take that as an opportunity. Doesn't mean you give in, but you can have a conversation about why that might happen and then you can kind of step up the allowance from age 6 to 7 to 8. It's kind of like the starter allowance. But more than anything, it's just opening up. Now you're making money a totally non taboo subject, right? You're empowering the conversation around money. And it's surprising how much these kids will understand and be ready. Because to Karen's point again, money gets them the things that they want.

[Joe Salcia]

And that's empowering for them around the negotiation. I don't know if this is good or bad. I'm not an expert in this area. I just thought this was funny. This one very bright young woman told me in an interview a long time ago that what her dad did was he would post all these different jobs on a job board and his kids would bid on the jobs, they would bid against each other for the jobs. And then they realized that if they colluded which was exactly what dad wanted. If they colluded, they'd get more money out of dad's pocket. So they began to learn to work together versus work against each other when they were bidding for the jobs. So when you were talking about negotiating, John, I thought about that immediately.

[John Lanza]

Well, this is the thing about being a parent and now your kids. My kids are now 22 and 20. You hear ideas every day like, oh man, I wish I could have implemented that idea. It was such a good one.

[Karen Holland]

And then they start to repeat it back to you. My son's 26 and now he'll say things to Mark and I and I'm like, oh man. Like, you know, I got no moves because I know exactly where that came from.

[Joe Salcia]

Well, Karen, let's ask you this one because same question, but for middle schoolers. What's a healthy money conversation sound like with a middle schooler?

[Karen Holland]

If you want something, what are you willing to do to get it? What are you going to give up? What will you help out with? What's a reasonable trade off in your mind? It's just practicing making trade offs, practicing making choices. We practice our times tables. We send all our kids to driver's ed. You know, Liv, your parents probably sent you to driver's ed, right? And why is that? Why did they send you to driver's ed?

[Liv Roeder]

So they don't have to teach you how to drive.

[Karen Holland]

Well, that's, that's a symptom maybe that they wanted you to have foundational skills and awareness.

[Liv Roeder]

Yes.

[Karen Holland]

Also that before you took £3,000.

[Liv Roeder]

That's what I meant to say.

[Karen Holland]

Before you took £3,000 of steel and glass on the road. We want middle school students to have foundational skills and awareness about the components of a well thought out decision. So that when the decisions are higher stakes, they're really comfortable evaluating alternatives.

[Joe Salcia]

Liv, you are just exiting this part. So I'll ask you this one. What's a healthy conversation with a high schooler look like when talking about money?

[Liv Roeder]

I think one thing that has been super helpful and not all high schoolers can do this at the beginning, but definitely at the end is getting a job. Because then it's suddenly you have a source of income that isn't your parents. So if you do want to negotiate, it isn't anymore, dad, can I have like an extra $20? Dad, can I have like an extra $30? It's talking to your boss and like talking about that negotiation. And now suddenly you have and often then you are going to get a larger paycheck and then understanding, okay, it's time to start saving up. How can I start saving this? But I also want to spend. How can I start spending this? Because now you have such bigger expenses that you want to buy and things you want to do. So then also having, like, this paycheck of your own. And now it isn't any more money coming from my mom and dad. It's my own money. So then it's using these lessons and growing them to a bigger playing field.

[Joe Salcia]

Do you expect your parents to help you then if that money came from your paycheck, or is that mom and dad? Hands off.

[Liv Roeder]

That's all mine when I'm buying something.

[Joe Salcia]

Yeah, about making good decisions about that money that you brought in from your job that you had in high school.

[Liv Roeder]

Oh, I think it's a mix. I think if I want to buy something that they think is, like, ridiculous, at the end of the day, I can make that money, and I might learn that lesson from it. But they'll also say, like, hey, like, maybe you shouldn't buy that. And it's also the way they spend money. It's like they think about their decisions before, and, like, with my experience, when I don't think about my decisions, that I end up regretting it after. I think it's definitely a mix. It's like, at the end of the day, it's my choice, but they definitely have their input.

[Joe Salcia]

John, I talk to older people about, you know, teaching kids about money, and they talk about, like, when my kids were young and your kids were young, I was teaching them the difference between, like, a penny and a dime and a nickel and, you know, and these different. Just because the nickel's bigger than a dime doesn't mean it's worth more, which was a big aha. Parents aren't dealing with that anymore. They're dealing with the fact that you go to Starbucks and you put your phone against a machine, and all of a sudden I get this drink. How are you helping kids deal with the frictionless nature of money?

[John Lanza]

It's a great question, particularly because you have so many places where you can't use cash. But I still think right now this advice will probably change over the next 10 years. But I still think when you start young, you're much better off using dollars and cents for a few reasons. One, we know from research, and we just know from personal experience, it's harder to part with physical dollars than it is with digital dollars. It's also when you do the allowance that physical moving of things into different jars like the share and the save and the spend. Smart. You're trying to teach them about making choices. So I think it's best to do the cash if you can, as long as you can. But there is definitely a case to be made. I talked to Chelsea Brennan, who's the smart money mama, and she had greenlight cards for kids at ages 7 and 4. And her logic was she did not want to miss allowance time. She wanted to be consistent with the allowance. And that made some sense. She had already been talking to the kids about money. She has them moving the money onto the. On the cards into their different envelopes. So I think a combo is certainly, it's going to move more digital than physical as the years progress. But to the extent you can do as much of it physical young for as long as you can. And then most likely they're either going to ask for a digital card or some method of paying digitally, or you're just going to be like, as a parent, this is so much easier. I can get the money to you faster. They can pay. They can. And that's. They need to be digitally empowered as well. So that's good. But starting with cash early, probably the best idea. I see Karen nodding. I think she probably would agree with that.

[Karen Holland]

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, the frictionless spending environment is just so tough. Right. And the speed at which we make any decision now is so much faster than what it used to be. And it's not because the species has evolved. It's our environment. Right. This is why I'm such a big believer in imprinting this habit of pausing before we make decisions. Because if you don't do it young, it's not impossible to embrace later, but it's a lot harder. And if we just take a beat, I mean, parents and school administrators are often worried that when we run these workshops, oh, the kids are going to want to buy things that the family can't afford. And I'm like, you know, I don't know everything, but I promise you, I've been doing this so long. Kids stop themselves. They are so capable of making terrific decisions when we give them a tool that helps them practice pausing, gathering information, and reflecting before they make the decision. They just need the tiniest bit of infrastructure, and they'll blow you away every time. They'll hardly ever let you down.

[Joe Salcia]

That was what was amazing that I was telling my intern about middle schoolers, Karen. She's like, they're just not paying attention. I'm like, they are paying so much attention. And the degree to which I would ask them to jump, and they would jump way higher than as their track coach. It was amazing how great these kids were.

[Karen Holland]

Here's my mic drop on how much attention they're paying. We had an 8th grade boy calculate the doesn't make sense score for buying Greenland. They are paying attention.

[Joe Salcia]

Too soon.

[Karen Holland]

They are paying attention.

[Joe Salcia]

Oh, that's fantastic. I want to ask one more thing because I was curious about this even as we were just signing on today. If families focused on just one money skill versus trying to teach everybody everything, what's the one money skill you think you got to choose one. Liv, which money skill do you think families should be teaching?

[Liv Roeder]

Okay. Not sure how concrete this is, but I would say awareness. Being aware of what's coming in, what's coming out. I'm not a huge budgeter. I don't have a big budgeting planner. But I started getting into the practice at the end of every month I go through my bank account and it listed out nicely what I spent. Everything I spent in the category, and I'll sum up all the categories and I'll see, wow. This month I spent $60 on Starbucks. And then by giving, like, me space, I think of questions saying, like, I could have spent that on a good pair of jeans, but no. So it's reflecting and being aware of how much I spend and how much I'm making. So I'd say awareness.

[Joe Salcia]

That's kick ass. Awareness and cash flow management. Karen.

[Karen Holland]

Well, it's the same answer lives. I would just use different words. Think before you buy, John.

[John Lanza]

Those are great answers. I think one of the things that you can start early to try to build a habit would be on the kind of portion saving side of things. So saving a bit of everything you make. So you're kind of instilling this idea of paying yourself first with kids. And that's the idea when you have three jars, making sure that they're putting some money into the save jar as just a habit that they can pay attention to and be aware of. And every kid's gonna deal with it differently, but at least they have an awareness that this is probably a good thing to do. And when it comes time for bigger money decisions when they have a job, hopefully they'll follow that advice or follow the path that you've laid for them.

[Karen Holland]

The saving thing is so great because compound interest is technically, it's too complicated when they're little. But I wish we could show the curve to all these kids, you know, and say, okay, listen, Warren, Buffett's made 90% of his money since, what is it, his 65th birthday?

[Joe Salcia]

Yeah, right?

[Karen Holland]

I mean, yeah.

[Liv Roeder]

Using those calculators of if I invest now, how much money will I have when I retire? That was like a game changer for me. That was like, wow, now that I'm young, now that I can know about finance, this is when it matters.

[Joe Salcia]

I used to go talk at high schools and we would get questions ahead of time. And 90% of the questions we get from high schoolers were variations of the phrase, how do I get into debt? Up to my eyeballs. It was, how do I afford a house, how do I afford a car? How do I afford a. Just how do I take out loans? How do I qualify for more loans? Almost 99% of the questions were there. And it was funny speaking with my friend Gene Natali, who teaches a lot of stuff in Pittsburgh, Gene said it was amazing when you turn that into discussions about the Roth IRA and about how if you just put a little money in the Roth IRA when you're 18, you could be a millionaire. And he said it would blow kids away. And all of a sudden, all the questions about getting into debt just went away on their own. And all of a sudden they were very focused on how do I make money hand over fist as fast as I can.

[Karen Holland]

Yeah. Gene is a very nice man, and I love what they're doing at Troutwood.

[Joe Salcia]

Yeah, it is some super work.

[John Lanza]

And I have to jump in just quickly on this because your point about that Gene makes, and you going to high schools, because the thing that you have liv over all of us is that factor of time, Right? It doesn't matter. You don't need intelligence, you don't need. You don't even need that much money because you have so much time on your side. So when people your age start investing, it's like Morgan Housel made a great point, is like if Warren Buffett had stopped investing. He started investing at 11, and he's still investing. That's why we're talking about him. That is the reason. Yes, he's a genius, but we're talking about him because he's been Investing for what, 80 years? It's crazy.

[Joe Salcia]

Yeah. Long, long time, John. Another thing, not an endorsement. Back when I was a financial planner, one of my. One of my wonderful creative parents did. Was that saving jar John that you talk about and getting kids saving at an early age. He would give them an allowance, and then he would withhold the saving part and call it taxes because he wanted his Kids to get angry about the part that was being withheld and to ask the question, how do I minimize my taxes from an early age? Again, no endorsement, but I thought that was pretty.

[Karen Holland]

Bill Murray used to say, the easiest way to teach kids about taxes is to eat 30% of their ice cream.

[Joe Salcia]

And don't even ask. Just reach in. Yeah.

[Karen Holland]

No, you just like, oh, I want to taste that.

[John Lanza]

Yeah, the claw.

[Joe Salcia]

That is so funny. Well, fantastic discussion. And I'm so happy that you all are doing what you do and able to help so many of our stackers today. Let's find out what's going on where you live. And again, I will be linking to all this wonderful stuff that you do on our shownotes page@stacking benjamin.com But, Liv, we'll start with you. Thanks for joining us. I'm so happy we finally got this done. What's coming up at the Live Lab?

[Liv Roeder]

Of course, I have a few more interviews coming up. We release every other week. And most recently, I had an amazing talk with Carmine Gallo. He's a Harvard professor and he mastered communication. And now I always rethink how I'm talking and how I'm communicating. So I got to learn how to talk.

[Joe Salcia]

That's so cool. Carmine is a. I wouldn't call him a close friend, but is a friend. And his Tuck Like Ted book is talking Amazon. And what a. What a wonderful guy. By the way, the first book I was ever quoted in was in Carmine's book. One of Carmine's early books. Yeah. Which is.

[John Lanza]

Was really cool.

[Joe Salcia]

So, Carmine Gallo, man, you're getting. That's incredible. That's a get.

[Liv Roeder]

Yeah. It was so fun.

[Joe Salcia]

Speaking of a get, it's always great getting Karen Holland. How about that segue, huh? On the show. What do you got going on?

[Karen Holland]

At Gifting Sense, we are building two new dim score calculators. We've had a lot of demand for these over the years, so we're working really hard on them, and we're hoping to have them available for Financial Literacy Month. And just doing workshops and educator webinars. We just did an educator webinar for the Council for Economic Education. What I love about working with them is they record them and put the recording on the Econ Ed link and all of your slides. So everybody, like, everything you need is. Is right there. And on the site, giftingsense.org we have a four parents page and a four teachers page.

[Joe Salcia]

Fantastic. And you know, it's funny, I learn as much on the For Middle Schoolers page and by the way I'm not ripping the four Parents page, it's awesome stuff, but man, some of these just, you know, when I get the latest board game, I'm like, I should buy that. I go, the dims. And I'm like, damn it, maybe I

[Karen Holland]

should wait, does it.

[Joe Salcia]

Maybe I, maybe I have enough. Which is an annoying answer, but it's probably the right.

[Karen Holland]

What hole does that board game fill? That's the question you ask yourself, what hole is that board game filling?

[Joe Salcia]

And I will always find, like some spot where I can justify that purchase. I am very good at that. John Lanza, great seeing you again, my friend. What's coming up at Art of Allowance?

[John Lanza]

We're going to be having a conversation about investing for parents and kids. Well, I'm sure we'll touch on Roth IRAs, 529s and the new, new Trump accounts that are coming out. So we'll hit on all of those. And that's going to be coming out in the next few weeks, which is exciting. And I hope that Karen's new gifting sense is going to be made for kind of the over 50 set. Do you have one of those coming out?

[Karen Holland]

You know, I have so many parents coming to me. Well, first of all, everybody says that their spouse needs it, not them. You understand? They've got it under control. But let me tell you, my partner, they, they need to some help. People of all ages can use it if it helps. We're happy.

[Joe Salcia]

That's fabulous. And the Art of Allowance and the Live Lab available where finer podcast. Only the finest podcast are listened to. All right, guys, that's going to do it. I'm going to pass this back to Doug, who I'm sure has been listening in to this entire conversation. Doug, what are the three things that should be on our to do list at the end of today's show?

[Doug]

So what's stacked up on our to do list for today?

[John Lanza]

Well, first.

[Doug]

But first, take some advice from Karen Holland. Asking yourself, does it make sense before purchases is a great way to start any money conversation with a child. Second, take some advice from John Lanza. Money conversations begin by being open and honest, not by feeling like you have to be perfect with money. Get the whole family involved and you'll soon have a money savvy family.

[John Lanza]

Brought the big lesson.

[Doug]

Don't ask Joe's kids for a loan. I asked Joe's son Nick for 10 bucks and I swear that guy's a loan shark. Two shrimp appetizers next Friday at the Sizzler just for a ten spot Nick.

[John Lanza]

Dang kid drives a hard bargain.

[Doug]

All right, I'm up against it. I'm in. You win. Thanks to the amazing Livia Roeder for joining us today. You'll find her incredible show the Live Lab wherever you find shows hosted by brilliant teenagers. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] Speaking of brilliant, thanks also to John Lanza for hanging out with us today. You'll find his fabulous podcast Art of Allowance wherever you listen to finer podcasts. And finally, thanks to Karen Holland for joining us Find her Does It Make Sense Tool? And more at Gifts. Thanks for helping us raise lots of money last fall to help Karen's mission too. This show is the property of SP Podcast, LLC, Copyright 2026 and is created by Joe Sal Sehi. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. And oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.