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The Stacking Benjamins Show
Lessons from the Trenches: Career Branding Good, Bad, and Ugly (SB1673)
01:06:39
Level up your professional game (and try to avoid the emergency room).
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- [00:00]
Joe Salcihai
This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. We know how fast life moves. That's why we have all in one banking to let you keep on banking on by saving time and money and getting a full picture of all your finances plus whether you have credit or not, you can build your credit score with the new ability to report on time bill payments. Learn how you can keep on banking on@navy federal.org Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission Insured by NCUA.
- [00:32]
Doug
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
- [00:35]
Joe Salcihai
Do you ever think about switching insurance.
- [00:37]
Doug
Companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy.
- [00:41]
Joe Salcihai
Just drop in some details about yourself.
- [00:43]
Doug
And see if you're eligible to save money. When you bundle your home and auto policies, the process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [01:02]
Joe Salcihai
Describe your perfect date. I'd have to say April 25th because it's not too hot, not too cold. All you need is a light jacket.
- [01:21]
Doug
Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and this week we've been helping you improve your career trajectory. And today, well, we'll polish it off with three people who've successfully navigated careers of their own. We'll talk missteps, unforced errors, and strategic genius in the office. But that's not all. We'll pause briefly halfway through for today's edition of our year long trivia challenge. And now a guy who might have just hit the pause button on an Xbox just to come join us. It's Joe Salci.
- [02:11]
Joe Salcihai
Oh no, no, no, no, no. Not in the middle of a workday. Although I have been playing this cool new game, Doug called South of Midnight. I don't know if you've seen that.
- [02:19]
Doug
Yet, but I'm sure you'll suck me into that.
- [02:22]
Joe Salcihai
Some fantastic goodness. Hey everybo. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Work Hard, Play Hard podcast. I am Joe Sal Sehei and we've got a fantastic way to end Career Branding week. We're going to share some salaciousness, some amazing things people have done to blow up their career that you may be able to learn from. And then sometimes when people might have made their career, we've got the perfect people for that. We'll introduce our guest of honor last, but let's start off with the guy across the card Table from me, who's had a whole career in financial planning. Mr. OG's here. How are you, man?
- [02:55]
OG
It's like I've had two careers in financial planning. It's been so long.
- [02:59]
Joe Salcihai
Well, you and I, way back in the day, in our American Express days, we saw some stuff. We saw some people blow up some careers. Pretty, pretty.
- [03:08]
OG
Well, you know, I don't have any. I don't have any memories of any of that stuff, honestly.
- [03:13]
Joe Salcihai
You blocked it all out.
- [03:15]
OG
Yeah, I mean, totally have. And when I was thinking about this, I was thinking more kind of broad brushstroke of like ways to do it. Not any particular stories. So I'll be interested to hear you tell me the things that I should have remembered from the 90s because it was, it was a while ago. So I just, I flush all that stuff, you know, that it's like, remember what I had for breakfast? Let alone what happened to office mate 27 years ago.
- [03:42]
Joe Salcihai
It is interesting though, OG, because like, you read about financial planning. I remember a great piece, I think it was in the Wall Street Journal way back when, during that time, and they were talking about Bill Clinton and the whole Monica Lewinsky thing from a financial planning perspective, which was interesting because at the time they said that, you know, presidents make a ton of money writing their memoirs and you have all of these income seeking opportunities with Bill Clinton, from a modeling standpoint, as a financial planner, could you model him making any money after his presidency? Which of course he did.
- [04:20]
OG
Turns out he did. Okay.
- [04:21]
Joe Salcihai
It turns out he did. All right. Spoiler. Spoiler alert.
- [04:24]
OG
Spoiler alert.
- [04:25]
Joe Salcihai
Too soon to talk about this.
- [04:27]
OG
He is a go zillionaire and he don't have to worry about money no more.
- [04:30]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, but just imagine the financial planning nightmares that happen from blowing up your career. Yeah. Speaking about a guy whose career is blowing up as we speak, but in a good way. Mr. Jesse Kramer's here. How are you, man?
- [04:44]
Jesse Kramer
Hey, guys. I'm doing well. If it seems like I'm talking kind of slowly, it's because I'm lagging behind by 10 or 15 or 20 seconds at a time. Other than that, other than the time warp between us, I'm doing quite well.
- [04:55]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, you're not doing the time warp the fun way, like it's midnight at your local movie theater with a Rocky Horror Picture Show.
- [05:01]
OG
Correct.
- [05:01]
Jesse Kramer
I'm not doing it that way. I'm doing it the unfun way. It's just me in my office alone.
- [05:06]
Joe Salcihai
Wouldn't it be wild if on these stacking Benjamin's episodes. Like people threw rice and toast and what else they throw? Like toilet paper. Like we could have our whole own own thing. I don't know.
- [05:16]
Jesse Kramer
We'll save that for the next 1600 episodes.
- [05:18]
Doug
Maybe just throw money at us.
- [05:20]
Joe Salcihai
And a woman who makes the show every time she's here, the woman behind the Elevate conference. Also the woman who was the creator of Yes, I Am Cheap. The woman who, speaking of cheap, came on this show and talked about doing her wedding for. I don't even remember the number. Sandy.
- [05:38]
Sandy Smith
Thousand dollars in New York.
- [05:39]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. $5,000 in New York. Sandy Smith is finally back. How are you?
- [05:44]
Sandy Smith
Good. Nice to see you've grown a couple more hairs.
- [05:48]
Joe Salcihai
Well, I think I've lost some. I don't know.
- [05:50]
Sandy Smith
I like that little dusting going on on top there.
- [05:53]
Joe Salcihai
Thanks.
- [05:53]
Sandy Smith
It adds a little je quoi.
- [05:56]
Joe Salcihai
It always takes Sandy like 47 seconds to start making fun of me.
- [06:00]
Sandy Smith
I'm losing my edge. 47 seconds. What's going on?
- [06:05]
Joe Salcihai
So Sandy lately. And I thought of you. I wrote you because I thought of you immediately with this topic. Sandy's seen a person or two blow up their career in her lifetime. Working in HR once or twice. Yeah. I'm super happy that you can be here with us. You've got a conference coming in July. Tell us about what's on tap for July in Sandy Smith.
- [06:24]
Sandy Smith
Yeah. The Elevate conferences are usually a series of workshops once a year most years that focuses on the intersection of money and some other topic. So in the past, it's been about black Wall Street. This year it is elevate the 92%, focusing on the 92% of Black women who voted for Kamala Harris and how we can improve their financial lives, specifically because there is a common thread there about how black women vote en masse, which is not the same as the rest of the United States. So I want to explore that a little bit more. With an eye towards finance, always towards personal finance.
- [07:04]
Joe Salcihai
Awesome. And that's. Well, everything you do, I think, always has that edge. There's a financial literacy edge. Where can people get more.
- [07:11]
Sandy Smith
Elevate the 92%. It's elevate the 92% spelled out.
- [07:16]
Joe Salcihai
Awesome. We'll link to it in the show notes@stacking benjamin.com. today we're going to tell some stories that hopefully will elevate all our stackers to maybe not do, maybe maybe not do some of the things that you're going to hear about in the next 30 minutes. So sit back. We've got A couple of sponsors that make sure this is free so that you don't pay for any of this goodness that you're about to hear. Let's hear from them and then we're going to talk about some career missteps. Let's go. This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. We know just how fast your life moves. You've bills to pay, mouths to feed and not a lot of free time. That's why we created an all in one baking experience that lets you keep on banking on. It can save you time and money with new lightning fast direct deposit set up and it offers checking accounts with ATM refunds and no service fees. Plus whether you've credit or not, you can build your credit score. With the new ability to report on time bill payments and with personalized financial insights on my making sense, the ability to view all your accounts in one place, custom notifications and 247 fraud protection, you can get a full picture of your finances. So if you want an all in one banking experience that lets you keep on banking on, sign up today. Learn more@navy federal.org Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission. Insured by NCUA this episode is brought.
- [08:46]
Doug
To you by Progressive Insurance.
- [08:47]
Joe Salcihai
Do you ever think about switching insurance.
- [08:49]
Doug
Companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy.
- [08:53]
Joe Salcihai
Just drop in some details about yourself.
- [08:55]
Doug
And see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you can save Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [09:21]
Joe Salcihai
All right, the scene is set. I'm just gonna go right to the professor here, Sandy Smith. Sandy, I feel picked up. No, no. That people maybe a story that somebody may be able to learn from that you probably shouldn't do if you want to have a successful career brand.
- [09:39]
Sandy Smith
I've been in HR for over a decade secretly. I've had like dual careers going on at the same time. And so lately since many non DAs have expired, I have been sharing some stories and that's what, that's what Joe has seen for my years in HR and people definitely blowing up their careers and crazy stuff. So probably one that I'm going to mention now is one that I shared and it's about relationships at work. Looking at you, Doug, I mean Doug, it's irresistible. Come on, you know you're spending a lot of time at work and you know it is natural that you're going to maybe have a connection with somebody at work. It happens. And as a HR professional, we know that it happens. That's just normal par for the course. However, if you sit on high and you have a relationship with someone on low, you should not be using your influence at that job for that person. So the story that I shared recently was somebody in the C suite who formed a relationship with somebody who was very, very, very junior in a different department. That was enough to like have the red flags going off already.
- [10:49]
Joe Salcihai
Was it public or was it just everybody knew but nobody talked about it.
- [10:54]
Sandy Smith
Exactly. Everybody kind of knew but didn't talk about it. See, no evil hair, no evil whispers are going on. If I don't know it exists, I don't know it exists. However, it couldn't be ignored when somebody on the department, in the department for the junior person resigned. And in their exit interview they mentioned this relationship causing a toxic environment in their department.
- [11:17]
Joe Salcihai
Really?
- [11:18]
Sandy Smith
Then employment law kind of had to get involved. Because when we dug in, that C suite person was putting undue stress onto that person who they were dating's direct manager. So if that manager asked that person to do something and they didn't like it, they would complain to their C suite boyfriend who then approached the manager. Right. And so the manager felt that they could not manage this person anymore. And because they could not manage this person anymore, it impacted the department. The entire department. So if you're going to have a relationship with somebody at work, it'll happen. Do not be the person in the relationship that is in a very senior position. Number one, pretend it doesn't exist at work. You guys, separate church and state. Do not ever have it impact any work that you are doing and most definitely do not have a direct reporting relationship at work. This is a C suite person with a base mid half million dollar base salary plus style equity options.
- [12:18]
OG
A former C suite person.
- [12:19]
Sandy Smith
That's exactly what happened. He was gone. Okay? And because of why he was gone, we could not even give him the severance that was normally in his golden parachute.
- [12:31]
Joe Salcihai
Couldn't even get the severance, not the.
- [12:33]
Sandy Smith
Full severance to which he was entitled in his golden parachute. Okay? And you know, finding a C suite level job takes some time and people gonna want to know what happened at the last place. Wherever you are, the industry is smaller than you think, the city is smaller than you think. People talk, people know each other. And whether you like it or not, whether you think it or not, it will get around.
- [12:58]
Joe Salcihai
So yeah, relationships at work just in General.
- [13:01]
Sandy Smith
I would never, never. But then I have seen it successful. I've had two colleagues who got married, but they were in two separate departments. They were on the same level. They never, even when they were dating, it was not, you know, in the office, it wasn't in your face. They would, you know, go out after work. They would, occasionally they would have lunch together outside of the office and it was fine, no issues. They did not interfere with anything within. They kept it very, very, like, quiet. But then they were Japanese, so that was a different culture anyway. So it can work, it can be successful. But not. Not in this case, and not if you're a senior person and you're using your influence on the business manager.
- [13:38]
Joe Salcihai
Have you, Jesse, have you seen relationships at work, either work or not work?
- [13:44]
Jesse Kramer
Good question.
- [13:45]
OG
Yeah. Jesse's like, no comment.
- [13:49]
Doug
Why are you asking?
- [13:50]
OG
On advice of counsel, I've been instructed to plead the fake fifth.
- [13:56]
Jesse Kramer
I'm going back to my old. I mean, right now I work in a relatively small office of 40, but I'm going back to my old job where I was in a engineering office of like a thousand. And yeah, there are some relationships there that definitely worked, including some that were pre existing before I started working there. And, and people who had been married for decades plus at the time. So it definitely can work. But at the same time, I think there's always that, I mean, power dynamics in general, and I think that's what Sandy was getting at is like whenever there's a power dynamic, sometimes it's just. It's the perception of one. Sometimes it can be like, well, technically no one is anyone else's superior, but this person has been there a lot longer and it seems like they have more responsibility and they have the ability to do favors for someone else. And even that alone is where you kind of get into some gray area.
- [14:39]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. Oh, gee. How about you? Have you seen relationships at work?
- [14:43]
OG
Well, we've always been a small firm, so none that I can think of. But I can also see this not even just in a relationship in this context, but also like, your kid comes to work for you and just being aware of how that looks, I mean, if you work at a big company that's hard to get into and your kid gets a job, even if they didn't connect the dots, right. It's like it's still going to be like, well, yeah, your dad's the senior vp. It's like, no, I went to this great school. I tried really hard. It's like, yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. But also Your dad's the vp, you know, or whatever. And it's like even just that appearance of that. I think you have to really do a. You have to work really hard to guard against any sort of even appearance of impropriety at any level, whether it's a sexual relationship or if it's just a parent child relationship or. Or any sort of nepotism type thing. So be aware of it.
- [15:37]
Joe Salcihai
Anyway, yeah, I saw a small business, a financial planning business where a dad brought in his daughter and he had before that a whole succession plan before he found out his daughter wanted a piece of the company. And when that happened, it just wrecked morale in the entire company.
- [15:51]
OG
I mean, I can see that in our business. Both of my boys have said something about it, you know, just kind of casually like, well, maybe I'll just go work for you one day. You know, while that would be super cool, there's more to it than just show up to work and, you know, let's hang out and have fun. I've worked with my brother before, and that was a different dynamic. And we're really close, and it was. It was very weird to kind of go, okay, at lunch we can be bros, but, you know, from 9 to 11:30, and from 12:30 to 5, you have to be the associate. And it's just a. It's just hard. It's just a different.
- [16:25]
Sandy Smith
And that's why I would never hire family or have them in the same company that I was in.
- [16:30]
OG
Yeah, it's hard.
- [16:30]
Sandy Smith
I was interviewing at a company for another HR position, and I didn't realize that one of my cousins worked there. You know, you do research on the company when you're interviewing. And there he was on the website. And I was like, oh, can't do it and you're gone. Yeah. And so I withdrew from consideration. They were like, why? And I said, I have a family member who works there now. Had I talked to my cousin in a while? Absolutely not. I probably hadn't talked to him like five or six years. But the fact that even that we had this family relationship, I don't want his mom calling me up.
- [17:00]
Joe Salcihai
You know what I mean?
- [17:00]
OG
Why did you lay off my kid?
- [17:02]
Sandy Smith
Exactly. Because that happens. I had to lay friends off people who I consider friends. Can you imagine if it was a family member?
- [17:08]
OG
Yeah.
- [17:09]
Joe Salcihai
Just think about the pressure of the girlfriend's boss, that the girlfriend's boss felt that after hours going out to dinner with boyfriend, who's the CEO, and next thing you know, it shows up in your performance eval. You're like, oh, how did this. How did this stuff happen? I remember a relationship when I was with American Express, the manager of an office and his office. So this guy. This guy was in charge of the office. He was the district manager. But the woman that was in charge of, like, the support staff, his office manager, they were having a relationship. And here's a lesson, which is the woman in charge of the support staff sent out an email to the district manager that said, hey, where do you want to go to dinner tonight? These two worked together nonstop. Nobody knew that anything was going on. In fact, if she had left that email alone, there would have been no big deal. Like, I think 99.9% of us thought, oh, yeah, the two of them are just going out to dinner to talk about work stuff. That's fine. But then Sandy, she decided to withdraw the email. She tried to withdraw it, and it was the nature of withdrawing that email that all of a sudden, the entire office goes, oh, what the hell's in that email? And then I wasn't even paying attention until I saw the withdrawal request. And then I said, what's is she trying to withdraw? And I saw she was trying to withdraw dinner with the manager, and I went, oh. Oh, this is a whole different thing than we thought. The good news is now they've been married for a long time, it worked out. And frankly, the office still ran the way that it ran before.
- [18:41]
Sandy Smith
But what happens when it doesn't work out? But when it doesn't work out? Yes. That's the other thing. And it can be very awkward.
- [18:48]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. The risk there is huge.
- [18:50]
Jesse Kramer
Joe, did you make any judgments about them based on the restaurant that they were going to that night, or did that not cross your mind?
- [18:57]
Joe Salcihai
Applebee's, dude.
- [18:59]
Doug
Applebee's? Really? That's all you could do was Applebee's?
- [19:02]
Joe Salcihai
It's the neighborhood place. Doug, come on.
- [19:05]
OG
Sizzler.
- [19:06]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. No, I did not. But. But, you know, it's funny, Jesse, to that point, and Sandy, to your point, too, I did begin judging them when they were having this relationship, because I was like, what are they talking about? How. How is this affecting everybody? How is this affecting us? Because they have this extracurricular activity going on. Jesse, what's another spot where somebody might have stepped into the danger zone?
- [19:30]
Jesse Kramer
The one that I think of from some experience is chronic negativity, chronic cynicism, which maybe in and of itself is just a reason for someone to. A way that someone can sabotage their own career. But even there are some cases where I Guess what I'm saying is, like, if we can picture someone who's always negative, like, yeah, they're probably self sabotaging. But there are some cases where someone, they think they're being helpful, like, they think they're being the helpful critic, but they don't realize how negative or how constant they're coming off with their criticisms. And that ends up shooting themselves in the foot because someone else or someone above them in the food chain just kind of gets sick and tired of this constant stream of criticism. You just have to be careful with it is all I'm saying. Everyone knows that a good employee hopefully is trying to improve the company and make things better, improve the systems. And that can include some constructive criticism. But there's a line that we all need to be careful about crossing.
- [20:26]
Joe Salcihai
I had a family member. From what I heard, this family member was recently let go for questioning the finances of her boss. And this person has a history of being outspoken and sometimes in a very negative way. And the more comfortable she gets with you, the more negative she'll become. And kind of pick on your life. And when you pick on your boss's life, no matter what you think, just maybe a bridge too far.
- [20:51]
OG
Praise in public, chastise in private. Right.
- [20:54]
Joe Salcihai
Well, and this OG I think, is a lesson that for me, I had a mentor talk to me about this, and I actually had to talk to a direct report of mine about this. And this mentor of mine said, beware clusters of misery. And this is groups of people at work that get together and like to bitch about the company culture. And every big company has this cluster of people. This particular woman that worked for me would go on smoke breaks, which I was fine with. But the people that she would hang out with at the smoke break, she'd always come back negative. She always knew about all the company gossip that had nothing to do with us helping our clients make any money. And I just had to caution her. I'm like, beware of those people. Like, I don't care about whatever you do. I'm just giving you a little bit of career advice. I would not spend that time with those people because those people every time make you negative and cross, and then it takes you forever to refocus. Sandy, you're nodding your head. You must see these clusters of misery everywhere.
- [21:49]
Sandy Smith
Oh, yeah. Because that perception will wash over whoever's in that vicinity. If you know, and I'll say that typically your HR team knows who the squeaky wheels and who the really negative people are. They know. And if they See that there's more or other people hanging with the same group of negative people. They're going to assume that that's also your thought process as well. And whether it's valid or not, there's like a strike in the back of their heads. And is it the right thing?
- [22:16]
Joe Salcihai
No.
- [22:17]
Sandy Smith
We're all human. We all have our biases. But that will creep in whether you know it or not, or whether they know it or not. There's unconscious bias, and it might impact you in a negative way just because you're hanging with people who other people perceive to be like that.
- [22:32]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, we talked about this on Wednesday's show. That people can't, you know, sometimes we call it shallow, but you just can't help it. I see you with a person who's the constant complainer. I immediately think that maybe you're a complainer too, or maybe you believe what that person believes.
- [22:46]
Sandy Smith
Exactly. It's a contagion. Now, are you spreading throughout the office? Typically, you want that contained, and those are the people when there is a reduction in force. Magically weird. They're on that list.
- [22:58]
Joe Salcihai
Weird how that happens. Oh, gee, what's one you've got?
- [23:02]
OG
So, again, I was thinking more of a big, broad brushstroke of this. And I was thinking about the idea of chasing whatever seems to be hot, you know, at the moment. And I'm thinking about this in the context of a personal, you know, the personal brand component. One minute you're, you know, a finance guy, the next minute you're talking about hustle culture. The next minute, you know, you're all about, like, calmness and serenity and mindfulness. It's like, what are you trying to be an expert in or what? What are you trying to be, you know, focused in or focused around? Like, what's your message? If you're going to be this. Like you were talking about before, if you don't have a personal brand, you have one, you just don't. It just sucks. Are you the hustle guy or gal? Are you the finance bro? Like, what. What is your thing? And if you keep on moving all the time, if you keep on bouncing around between whatever happens to be top of your social channel today, then nobody knows what to. Nobody has any trust. Like, what are you trying to do? What are you trying to say? What's your message? What are you. It's okay to kind of go with different trends, but. But you still have to be who you are.
- [24:08]
Joe Salcihai
I had a guy early in my career at American Express who did that. He Was always the different guy every week. And you could tell he was trying to find his way. He was just doing it very publicly, like very. Today I'm this. And he was 100 this person. And then two weeks later he's 100. That person is funny because he hasn't changed. I mean, I don't know him that well, but we're friends on LinkedIn and Facebook and social media. And still when I see this guy, I still think of him as the guy who is changing every third week. And I haven't known him for 20 years and I still think of him that way. Yeah, very difficult. Doug, you spend a lot of time in corporate America. What's a public career blow up? Somebody nuked their own career that you've seen.
- [24:50]
Doug
Well, I have a funny story that was a blow up. But I also have my own personal advice of things that. Or a thing that definitely derailed me for a little while. Not totally, but a little while. But the funny story is be careful of your humor because your humor is not everybody else's humor. And there was a guy that was a peer of mine who was leading a portion of the technology team was having a meeting with a vendor and in walk somebody who reported to him happened to be a woman who was very small physically. I mean, she might. I don't think she was five feet tall. And she's just a small person. For some unknown reason, this guy decides to say in front of the vendor who was sitting in his office, I've crapped bigger than you.
- [25:35]
Joe Salcihai
Oh my God.
- [25:37]
Sandy Smith
No.
- [25:38]
Joe Salcihai
Oh my God, yes.
- [25:41]
Doug
Could not believe it.
- [25:42]
Joe Salcihai
I love how the woman from hr, Sandy responded to that.
- [25:45]
Doug
Yeah.
- [25:46]
OG
No, Sandy wants a meeting with him right now.
- [25:49]
Sandy Smith
I know immediately.
- [25:51]
Jesse Kramer
Well, it's not like we didn't respond.
- [25:53]
OG
Joe, do not ask.
- [25:54]
Joe Salcihai
Go.
- [25:54]
OG
Do not collect $200.
- [25:55]
Joe Salcihai
It's not even in Sandy's company. She wants to meet with him.
- [25:58]
Doug
Just a classic story.
- [26:00]
Joe Salcihai
We got HR managers from seven different companies that want to meet with you now.
- [26:03]
Doug
And he never really talked about hunting. You know, here in Michigan, lots of people hunt. But oddly he was gone for a whole week during hunting season for the next couple of years. And it was because he got sent off to sensitivity TR for as long as he was with the company. And they just scheduled it hunting season just to give him cover. But yeah, that. So be careful of when you think you're being funny. You might not be. I find that out every week on this show. I get told and taken to RHR department in the corner of the basement Every week. But you know, the other thing that I was going to talk about and both you and OG just kind of touched on it, was think about the kind of manager you want to be known as. If you get promoted into a, into a management level position, it's very easy, especially in your first one or two management roles. It's very easy to get drawn into being the people manager rather than the mission manager. And what I mean by that is you feel like in order to get your team behind you, you have to create these personal relationships with people and try to solve their problems for them. And that's what, to OG's point a second ago, that's what you're going to get known as. So then when it comes time to really buckle down and say, this is the mission of this, of this team, this is what we have to accomplish, you may not get the reaction you want because of the type of relationship you've developed for the preceding, whatever, six months, a year.
- [27:24]
Joe Salcihai
People are saying she or he is soft. I don't really need to do this well.
- [27:28]
Doug
Or they know I've got a different. Maybe it's not that they're soft, but that I've got this, I'm a little tighter with that person. I can kind of, I don't have to react the same way when they say jump, I don't have to say how high. And I found that out because I had a career path plan, deliberate plan from shortly after college that I would rather have been a bigger fish in a smaller pond. So I deliberately worked for small to midsize companies on purpose, knowing that that way I would get really broad experience so that when I got a little bit older and I wanted to move to larger global companies, that I would have this great breadth of experience. That part all worked great. But the downside was in the smaller company, you get promoted early. If you're any good, you get promoted earlier. I got promoted into leadership positions I was not ready for. I was too young and I didn't have the experience to be leading 112 people in my mid-20s. And so I kind of leaned on the personal side of management and it really made things difficult.
- [28:21]
Joe Salcihai
You see that with young managers a lot, Sandy.
- [28:23]
Sandy Smith
Yes, especially now because the current generation, sometimes I feel like it's us against the company kind of a thing, and they relate very, very closely to the folks who work for them. It is a cultural shift and I actually don't think it's a negative thing per se because they do relate to each other in A different way than, say, my generation Gen X would to somebody who's, you know, my sister's generation, who's Gen Z. But I think there is a danger of being too familiar because when it comes to really having to have tough conversations, then it becomes very difficult. Then it's like, dude, you're my friend. We just had beers last night kind of thing. Right? And they find it very difficult to draw the line when it's been blurred the entire time. The line hasn't existed.
- [29:13]
Joe Salcihai
Can we talk about beers last night? Because that's the one that I wrote down that we haven't gotten to. I wanted to make sure that nobody else brought this up. I will tell you what I've seen in my career has been. Remember the company holiday party? You're still with people from the company.
- [29:30]
Sandy Smith
I have written about this so many times.
- [29:32]
Joe Salcihai
I have seen Sandy. So many careers destroyed at the company holiday party.
- [29:37]
Sandy Smith
I stopped going to company holiday parties about six or seven years ago on purpose. Because once I was HR and I had a responsibility. I didn't want to be responsible.
- [29:48]
OG
Hear no evil, see no evil. I like it.
- [29:50]
Sandy Smith
I don't want to go. I literally stopped going to company holidays.
- [29:53]
OG
Did you see what Nancy was doing in the bar?
- [29:56]
Sandy Smith
Who was drunk? Who do I have to call a car for? Who's hooking up in this corner? Who's on that drug? Who's on this?
- [30:02]
Doug
Man, those sound like awesome parties.
- [30:04]
OG
This is. Hold on. I'm asking for a friend. But when would be the next company party?
- [30:10]
Joe Salcihai
I had a colleague get propositioned to be part of a threesome at the company party with one of the VPs and their spouse.
- [30:18]
Sandy Smith
Sounds about right.
- [30:18]
OG
Go on.
- [30:19]
Joe Salcihai
I know a woman who is showing off her new implants purchases.
- [30:25]
Sandy Smith
That's very popular. I definitely had that happen.
- [30:28]
Joe Salcihai
I have seen. I'll even tell you who this is because this was a big. I don't even know this person. I wasn't at the company party, but I heard Lester Holt. The CB or the NBC news.
- [30:41]
Doug
Yeah.
- [30:42]
Joe Salcihai
Was so drunk at the NBC holiday party and he sang karaoke that I heard about how horrible it was.
- [30:49]
Doug
Like, I don't even.
- [30:51]
Joe Salcihai
I was even at that party. And this has become like a cultural thing where everybody knows that Lester Holt.
- [30:57]
Doug
Just hold on. I was down for all of these crazy stories until you started saying karaoke is not okay.
- [31:03]
Joe Salcihai
Karaoke can be okay. But apparently Lester made it pretty, pretty bad.
- [31:07]
Sandy Smith
How off key was he?
- [31:08]
Doug
Was he singing a Rod Stewart song?
- [31:10]
Joe Salcihai
Here's a guy who at the time wanted to be an anchor right. At NBC News. And I have heard in publications that that affected his ability to move up was people. I mean he finally made it and I think we all know him and how responsible he is.
- [31:25]
Doug
Think I'm sexy. Do you want my.
- [31:27]
Joe Salcihai
But yeah, Lester and karaoke. More people are going to hear about what happened at the holiday party.
- [31:33]
OG
Careful. At the holiday party.
- [31:35]
Sandy Smith
Even people who are not there. We'll hear about it. Because I hear, I always hear about stuff at the holiday parties. Like hey, wasn't there. Unless somebody comes and complains about something at the holiday party, I don't know what happened.
- [31:45]
Joe Salcihai
Didn't happen, right? Well, something that does happen every week on this show is halfway through. We have this year long trivia competition. So we're going to pause for a second and jump into this because Sandy, today you are going to play for team Paula Pant. We have three frequent contributors. Oh geez. Here every week, Jesse. We got team Jesse and team Paula. So you're representing team Paula. Do you want the good news, Sandy, or the bad news about where you're standing so far in 2025?
- [32:14]
Sandy Smith
Okay, throw me the bad news. Let's go.
- [32:16]
Joe Salcihai
I don't know if it's bad news or good news. The bad news is Paul is in last place. That's where Paula generally spends our trivia competition. She's got two and a half points. Now she did have only a point and a half but she won last week. Okay, Jesse, three and a half points. OG has five. So with a win today, you could be in second place. Still in last, but in second place. If Jesse wins, he finally put some pressure on OG If OG wins. Oh God, no. Let's not even consider that. So those are the stakes. Sandy, you're going to guess last. That's good news. Jesse, you'll guess in the middle. Oh gee, will go first. We need a trivia question though, Doug. What's on tap this beautiful Friday?
- [33:02]
Doug
Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And today we're helping you zip up your career, maybe as mom says, by remembering to zip up that mouth at.
- [33:12]
Joe Salcihai
The holiday party especially.
- [33:14]
Doug
Yeah, the zipper was an innovation in more ways than one. Not only does it help keep tents closed and purses protected, it also keeps your privates private. Except when the worst happens. As we saw in a film that earned tons of Benjamin's way back in 98. That gave us the poetic line, we have a bleeder. Here's today's question. How often does that something About Mary problem actually happen. And for those of you who haven't seen the movie, let me lay it out there for you. How many Americans go to the hospital in an average year for zipper and related injuries? I'll be back right after I figure out how to say that question without crossing my legs.
- [33:59]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, that hurts. Something about Mary. Sandy, have you seen Something about mary?
- [34:04]
Sandy Smith
This is a 90s film, isn't it?
- [34:06]
Joe Salcihai
1998. Yeah. Going way back.
- [34:09]
Sandy Smith
I never watched it.
- [34:11]
Joe Salcihai
No. Well, that's fine. But the we have a bleeder line is exactly what you think it was.
- [34:17]
Sandy Smith
Yep.
- [34:17]
Joe Salcihai
Jesse, have you seen this movie? Yeah.
- [34:19]
Jesse Kramer
Ben Stiller and Cameron Diaz. Am I thinking of the right movie?
- [34:22]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. Cheryl and I actually watched it in a hotel room and then we were on the elevator, it had just come out and it was new to the hotel, you know, movie scene.
- [34:31]
Doug
Are you really telling this story?
- [34:32]
Joe Salcihai
We get in the elevator and Cheryl takes her hand and goes like this. And the people in the elevator go, you just watched Something about Mary because. Yeah, hair gel. But anyway.
- [34:43]
Sandy Smith
Yes, I didn't watch it, but even I know that scene.
- [34:45]
Joe Salcihai
You know that I think that we have a bleeder scene is a close second. So OG in an average year, how many people go to the hospital due to zipper injuries?
- [34:58]
OG
I think that this has got to be largely children. I have distinct memories as a child of having this happen. No less than twice the old footy pajamas will get you every time. That's a big long zipper and you just kind of, you get the momentum going from the ankle and you just, and it just, you know, bang. Just, just jumps up to get you. You know, it's like a rattlesnake. The average number of Americans that go to the hospital for zipper related incidences is it's going to be 74,319.
- [35:37]
Joe Salcihai
74,319 people on average.
- [35:42]
OG
On average per year.
- [35:44]
Joe Salcihai
Yes. Sandy, use your hand up to ask a question.
- [35:46]
Sandy Smith
That's a lot of people who don't wear underwear.
- [35:52]
Joe Salcihai
Doug's not wearing underwear right now.
- [35:53]
OG
It's a whole new world.
- [35:55]
Doug
Jesse, you don't know.
- [35:55]
Joe Salcihai
Jesse, what are you going to do?
- [35:56]
OG
Don't send me to HR because of it.
- [35:59]
Jesse Kramer
I'm going to go lower than OG My first instinct was in the thousands. I'm going to say three. I'm going to say 3,500, 3,500 per year.
- [36:13]
Joe Salcihai
You're going way lower. Way, way, way lower.
- [36:16]
Jesse Kramer
75,000 is a lot. I mean, that means over, over 10 years it's happening to close To a million people.
- [36:23]
Joe Salcihai
Well, like Doug said while we were planning this segment, everybody's got a story.
- [36:27]
Jesse Kramer
Well, that's the thing. It's. Everybody's got a story, but this is a hospital visit.
- [36:31]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, yeah. That's a serious story.
- [36:33]
Jesse Kramer
Again, sorry, Sandy, if this is too much, but this isn't like a little, like, pinch and go like, oh, all right, Time to get back to work now. This is like, I have to stop work, call the ambulance because we have a bleeder.
- [36:46]
Joe Salcihai
Correct? Yeah, correct.
- [36:47]
Sandy Smith
I have had to extricate a cousin from one of.
- [36:51]
Joe Salcihai
My goodness.
- [36:52]
Jesse Kramer
Oh, my goodness.
- [36:53]
Sandy Smith
I have a little bit of experience with it.
- [36:55]
Jesse Kramer
Did they go to the hospital or not?
- [36:56]
Sandy Smith
There was a lot of screaming, but no hospital.
- [36:58]
Joe Salcihai
Case in point, the good news is, is that Jesse thinks a lot more people wear underwear. So. Yes.
- [37:05]
Jesse Kramer
What did I say? What did I end up saying? Doug?
- [37:07]
Doug
3500.
- [37:08]
Jesse Kramer
All right, good.
- [37:09]
Joe Salcihai
All right, Sandy, here's what you got. 74,000. 3. 19 from OG, 3,500 from Jesse.
- [37:15]
Sandy Smith
Jesse stole my answer because I'm thinking, like, 10 people a day, like, who You've got to really be, you know, yanking on that zipper really quickly to warrant a hospital visit. And having had to unzip and scissor my cousin out of the.
- [37:36]
Joe Salcihai
Come on.
- [37:37]
OG
That was unnecessary. God, I want to go to hr.
- [37:42]
Sandy Smith
I live here with four men. I'm a mom of one son. And thank God I haven't had to do this with him yet because. Yeah, I never wouldn't do that again. One time was enough in my life.
- [37:51]
Jesse Kramer
Is that why you didn't take that job, Sandy? It. That cousin?
- [37:53]
Sandy Smith
You know.
- [37:56]
Jesse Kramer
I wouldn't take the job either.
- [37:58]
OG
I know.
- [37:59]
Doug
Seen the bits.
- [37:59]
OG
Like, I haven't talked to him in six years.
- [38:01]
Doug
Why?
- [38:01]
OG
Well, it involved a zipper.
- [38:03]
Sandy Smith
We were younger. We were younger. I was the older teenage cousin, and he was a little younger, and I had to. I was babysitting, so I had to get him extricated. I. 74,000 is way too many people. Like, that's a. That's a whole lot of momentum and a whole lot of meat, and I just.
- [38:23]
Doug
This just became the best episode ever.
- [38:25]
Sandy Smith
Have you guys ever had to do this?
- [38:27]
OG
I told you twice.
- [38:29]
Jesse Kramer
No.
- [38:29]
Sandy Smith
Yeah. So I'm extricate somebody back to when I had to help my cousin out to get this. It can't be that many people because he didn't have to go to the hospital. You just had to be very careful and had to, like, you know, he lost a pair of pants. That's it. And I Was like in, in Jesse's area, like 10 people a day. So can we be closed? Can we go like three, three thousand people?
- [38:49]
Doug
You can go one over, one under. That is a common tactic to go one over or one under somebody.
- [38:54]
Sandy Smith
I'll go a little under. Let's. Where are you at? 3,500. Let's go 3,000. Because there can't be that many people with that much like trauma or junk.
- [39:10]
Joe Salcihai
Let's lock those in. This might be the weirdest trivia we've ever done. No, we're going to find out.
- [39:15]
Doug
I got butterflies in my stomach right now. I'm so uncomfortable.
- [39:18]
Joe Salcihai
We're going to find out who's right. We'll be right back.
- [39:22]
Sandy Smith
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- [39:53]
Joe Salcihai
McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with one.
- [39:55]
Sandy Smith
Of six collectibles and your choice of.
- [39:57]
Joe Salcihai
A Big Mac or 10 piece McNuggets.
- [39:59]
Sandy Smith
With spicy nether Flame sauce.
- [40:01]
Joe Salcihai
Now available with a Minecraft movie mine. I participate in McDonald's for a limited time.
- [40:06]
OG
A Minecraft movie only in theaters.
- [40:07]
Jesse Kramer
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront.
- [40:29]
Joe Salcihai
Payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and Fe. See full terms@mintmobile.com all right, we performed this live on YouTube and the comments are coming in. Mike says, what is going on? And Tina says, how'd you get the beans above the Frank? I know. Don't even want to know. So OG started us off with 74,319 people have zipper related incidents. Both Jesse and Sandy thought you were way off. Oh gee, what are you thinking?
- [41:06]
OG
No clue.
- [41:07]
Joe Salcihai
I hope it's way off. Jesse 30. I know. I think we all do. Jesse 3500. Sandy stole the downside, you feeling good?
- [41:14]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah, I'm feeling like I'm in the ballpark. You know, the ballpark.
- [41:18]
Doug
Oh, I see what you do there.
- [41:22]
Joe Salcihai
Sandy is, is Paula gonna win this one?
- [41:25]
Sandy Smith
I hope so.
- [41:26]
OG
I.
- [41:26]
Sandy Smith
Every time I'm here, I have one for Paula. So let's keep the street going.
- [41:30]
Joe Salcihai
Here we go, Doug. Let's see if the streak is if.
- [41:32]
Sandy Smith
I want to win this one, though. I don't know.
- [41:34]
Joe Salcihai
Or is it team Jesse getting closer to O or OG pulling away?
- [41:42]
Doug
Hey there, Stackers. I'm band aid lover and guy who suddenly loves button fly jeans. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Today we're zipping up our trivia with a question about the zipper. Ironic, isn't it? The zipper actually might not be as old as you think. It was created in 1913 as a separatable fast by a guy named Gideon Sundback. I still thank him daily for his modern miracle. Mostly because I've never had a zipper accident and had to rush to the hospital. But today's question is how many people do have to go to the hospital for zipper related incidences in an average year? Well, I'm not going to give you the answer right away, but I will tell you that it was 72,319 less than the evil empire OG it was 1500 less than Jesse and just 1000 fewer than what Sandy Paula guessed. Keeping Sandy's streak alive. She has won. For Paula, the actual answer is 2,000 people. Poor, poor souls per year.
- [42:46]
Sandy Smith
Yes. So you guys need more experience unzipping the zipper.
- [42:49]
Joe Salcihai
No, we don't.
- [42:50]
Jesse Kramer
Paula definitely would have taken the over. She definitely would have taken the over. You did not do Paula well right there. But congratulations on the win.
- [42:57]
Sandy Smith
I think I had the edge because I've had to do this and you guys haven't had to do it.
- [43:00]
Joe Salcihai
So I will learn from your experience. Kind of like we were doing with those people blowing up their careers. I don't want to any part in that, but 2000 is a much better number. Give you hope for humanity. This doesn't happen that much. So yeah. All right, let's get on with something maybe a little better. We talked about the downsides because those are salacious tales. Let's talk about people who maybe made their career with something that they did. Something pretty badass they did. Sandy, let's stick with you. What's something you saw where somebody really did something pretty amazing that catapulted them career wise?
- [43:37]
Sandy Smith
I don't think you guys are going to agree with me on this one, because it isn't an amazing thing per se. It is a personality trait. I think people don't realize that the more likable you are, the more your chances of improving your career. What do I mean by that? You don't have to be the smartest in the room. You do not have to know everything. You do not have to be the person picking up all the things. You have a better chance of success if people find you to be likable. Okay. If you're not the difficult person to work with, if you've got the can do attitude, if you come in, you're a ray of sunshine, you are smiling. They like working with you. You stand a chance of having more opportunities presented to you than if you are just the hard worker with your head down because you're not noticeable. And I know that's not something that you know is going to blow everybody's minds or whatever or something that you want to hear. You want something tangible. Oh, study this, do that, do this amazing thing. No, be that likable person that people love working with. And I promise you your career has. Stands a better chance of improving, better faster than people who are working hard at their jobs.
- [44:49]
Joe Salcihai
I'm glad you said that because that's what we spent the whole week doing. You know, was talking Sandy specifically about that on Monday, we led off with relationships matter and being in the right meetings and taking part in groups that have nothing to do with your job. Being a cheerleader for other people, all of those things elevate people. Oh, gee. You and I know somebody like this Chris. Chris was actually really good at his job. But I thought, oh gee, when you and I worked with Chris back in our American Express days, that what you led with was he was one of the most likable guys you could possibly meet.
- [45:23]
Doug
Yeah.
- [45:24]
OG
Good guy to have in your corner, that's for sure.
- [45:26]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. Always a cheerleader too.
- [45:28]
OG
OG yeah, absolutely. Problem solver. It didn't have to be necessarily work related. I felt like maybe he was always like a connector, right? Like, oh, you know what? Who's good at this? Is this person. Let me, let me get you guys together and see if that won't spark a conversation.
- [45:43]
Joe Salcihai
And this is actually Chris is an interesting case study because I remember hearing from some more senior executives that people above him in the corporate chain kind of saw him as a goofball. But a management consultant, Tom Peters, said that true leadership comes from the people that are your employees, your direct reports, they're the ones that will get you promoted. In a big way. And Chris ended up getting some fantastic promotions later on. It was mostly because the people that work for him were always his biggest cheerleader because he was always helping them. So, Sandy, I think this guy Chris is exactly like the model of who you're avoiding. Clusters of misery, Sandy. I think, yes.
- [46:23]
Sandy Smith
You being the opposite of that, right? Yeah, that's exactly what that is. And I've benefited from that myself. I've had managers who I work with previously at this point, current job that I have right now. The manager literally picked up the phone and said, I want you here with me at this current place. Because we'd worked together before, didn't even interview anybody else. Right. I know what you're capable of. I know, like, your personality. I don't have to worry about anything. It was literally just, come meet the CFO and you're in. And they even waited because I was working on a major project, and my. My former employer, I was like, hey, I want to leave with a nice bow here. Will you guys wait four months for me to join? Yes. No problem. No questions asked. And that will follow you for other people. As people go to other companies, Your reputation will follow you, and that might lead to other opportunities as well for you.
- [47:13]
Joe Salcihai
I do remember the aha. And I'm going to go right back to the name I already said, Tom Peters. I remember Tom Peters saying, if you spend all of your time as a manager helping your people with their resume so that they can make more money, they can do better work, and they can leave the company. Those people will never leave or they will try not to leave. And by the way, if they do leave, they will help you make connections between their new company and your company because they want to work with you on the other side. Most managers, by every report I've ever seen, spend a lot of time keeping their direct reports down so that they look better. And those people want to leave immediately.
- [47:50]
Sandy Smith
Nope. I learned from a manager. She ended up being in the C suite at blackrock. I remember her saying to me, I was her executive assistant at the time. I was in grad school. She said to me, I hire people who are smarter than I am. Why should I be the smartest person in the room? These guys make me look good.
- [48:04]
Joe Salcihai
That's fabulous.
- [48:05]
Sandy Smith
And I never forgot that. Right? You do have a lot of managers who want to be, like, the smartest person in the room. And the fact that she had the opposite philosophy stuck with me from my 20s to now. And I think that's really important. That you build your team. I love people who are smarter than me. I don't want to be the smartest person doing all the things. That's what you guys are here for. For.
- [48:23]
Joe Salcihai
It's such a growth mentality and so, so, so cool. Jesse, what's a time that you saw somebody make their career? Yeah.
- [48:31]
Jesse Kramer
Two quick comments. The phrase that you guys, I thought when you guys were talking there, servant leadership is, is that. Are you guys familiar with that phrase? But it really is like, my role as a manager is to try to make sure that the people who I'm managing that they are successful. And if there are multiple layers of management involved, like let's say I'm the, I'm the senior manager and then they're all junior managers to further people below them. Their job is to make sure that the people below them are successful. And there are a lot of really good organizations that are kind of built on that idea that everybody's job is just to make sure that the people who work for them that they can find success themselves. Just like you said, Joe, it breeds great culture. But then there was another idea I had. Let me see if it'll come back to me.
- [49:08]
Joe Salcihai
Oh, boy.
- [49:09]
Jesse Kramer
It might not. It might not. Oh, I know what it was. Thank you, Sandy. Likeability. Here's a cool thing I learned recently. This isn't me in my own study, but there was a really cool study done on like high schoolers. And it kind of had to do with like, popularity and likability. And what was the number one correlated thing they found that makes people likable? Like, you know, what was it? Was it being good looking? Was it being athletic? Was it being funny? No, the people who are the most likable are the people who like the most other people. So, Right. If you're the kind of person who goes around and you say, like, oh, Joe, Joe's a great guy. I love hanging out with Joe. Oh, Bobby, you know, he's kind of quiet sometimes. He's like kind of snaps at people. But I like him, you know, I think he's a sweet guy. If you're the kind of person who can find a way to like other people, those people will tend to like you back. So if anyone out there is curious about becoming more likable, it kind of just has to do with you and your ability to, to enjoy spending time and like other people, I'm screwed.
- [50:10]
Doug
There's a reason you work for yourself. Og.
- [50:13]
Jesse Kramer
I like you.
- [50:13]
Sandy Smith
Og.
- [50:14]
Joe Salcihai
It's okay, but at times somebody made their career that you saw somebody do something that was just brilliant.
- [50:20]
Jesse Kramer
I mean, that's a good one. Brilliancy. Like, is it one act of brilliancy or. I mean, this is a boring answer, but some of the people who I feel like I've seen make the biggest careers for themselves, there's this consistency. There's this like unwavering consistency. Not that you have to be, for example, a workaholic, but one idea that does come to mind is this guy who's like, his goal was everyone else was working 9 to 5 and his goal was to work 6 to 6 every single day. And from the time we started together as engineers, as like 23 year olds to the time I left the firm seven years later, he was always in working six to six every single day. And he didn't really rub it in. It's just that he got way more stuff done and he learned way more. And so again, it's not that I'm trying to promote this workaholic culture, but it's that whatever you choose to do, if you can show true consistency over a long period of time and yeah. Make sure that your managers are aware of it, that becomes pretty hard to ignore.
- [51:14]
Joe Salcihai
Oh, gee, how about for you?
- [51:16]
OG
I was just thinking about it, you know, in our industry, I thought of a person that stuck very closely to their personal brand and just kind of repeated the same thing over and over again. I think a good example of that is Morgan Housel. You know, he's not trying to be the next day trader, he's not trying to figure out what the next stock pick is that's going to blow up, but just repeatable, predictable, good, solid financial planning advice over and over and over again. And now everybody knows the name. Everybody has his. He was a blogger, right. For a long time. And now everybody has his books on their shelf. Who's in the finance space and people who aren't have obviously bought a lot of his books and very well respected person by just saying, like, this is what I believe. I'm gonna say it very simply and I'm gonna say it over and over and over again. And this is so there's no confusion about who he is. You know what I mean? Like, you know what you're getting.
- [52:12]
Sandy Smith
There's something for that reliability and consistency as well. Yeah, right.
- [52:16]
Doug
Yeah.
- [52:16]
Sandy Smith
That means people can really depend on you.
- [52:18]
OG
Yeah. And that's worry about like all of a sudden some weird direction. You know, he's not gonna be chasing Chinese penny stocks all of a sudden or something like that.
- [52:25]
Joe Salcihai
Well, And Sandy, also to your point, I love how it's the opposite of what OG said in the first half, which was the person who's like showing up as somebody different every three weeks or every month or every two months, you know, every couple years, that if they're consistently I am this person. Well, Jesse, it really goes to yours too, right? About the guy that shows up same time every day, does the same thing. I remember going back to the beginning of the year and Alex Harmozi saying, be useful. You know, somebody who's useful and people want to take the job to you because you're useful and that person's getting promoted. I saw a woman when I was at American Express who created a job for herself. She saw a need in the company. She not only presented that need to her bosses, she literally said, here's how this role would look, here's what it would do. And I think I'm the person who is uniquely created to fill the role to the. She made such a great business case using, as we talked about on Monday, using data. Using data and showing how we could have a bigger impact on clients if this role existed. She created a whole job for herself and a great paying job in like a whole new spot that American Express wasn't paying attention to. It was pretty badass to see at a major company like American Express, a woman create out of the blue just a brand new role that was perfect for her.
- [53:45]
Sandy Smith
So what she did, though, Jo, was she found a gap and created a solution and presented it.
- [53:51]
Doug
I thought for sure you were going to say zipped it up.
- [53:54]
Sandy Smith
You missed opportunity, right?
- [53:58]
Joe Salcihai
Yes. Do you see that a lot, though, Sandy?
- [54:00]
Sandy Smith
It's harder to do it, I think now than ever before, but if you absolutely can. And not only just finding the gap, but coming up with the solution is also very important. Not just waving the flag, but that's also what people do. I think when you have people who are finding vulnerabilities and systems and things like that in software, et cetera, they find the gap and they suggest the solution as well. And you're suddenly this hero. So if you're looking for the one big, you know, a big event that might be something that might be one big event that can really catapult your career.
- [54:32]
Joe Salcihai
Like the takeaway. Yeah. I also have one more, and this was during the interview I went to apply for while I was in college. I went to apply to be a disc jockey at this place called USA Cafe. It played like 50s and 60s music and served burgers and fries and Stuff and became nightclub later on the evenings. And they were hiring new dj. So I showed up and there were maybe eight people there. The hiring manager comes out and goes. He goes, hey, totally optional, but does anybody want to, like, dress up like Elvis right now and grab this guitar and just perform for this little group of people? There were maybe 12 people in the, you know, it's. It's 11 o'clock in the morning, so the lunch crowd is just beginning to come in and said, does anybody, you know, totally optional. Does anyone dress up like Elvis Presley and. And do this fake guitar riff right now? And all of us, except two people went, yeah, I'll pass. Yeah, I just want to get to the interview. And he goes, okay. Those two people said, they do it. You're staying, you're hired, and everybody else is gone. And I was like, think like the hiring manager. Think about the other side of the table. And I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people that by thinking, by thinking more like the person who's trying to solve the problem at work that is not your problem, but their problem, and trying to think more like them, you immediately make huge, huge, huge waves.
- [55:51]
Doug
I did that inadvertently once, Joe, without.
- [55:53]
Joe Salcihai
Did you?
- [55:54]
Doug
Yeah, I was living in London and didn't have a job. And a friend back here in the States who was pretty senior with Xerox got me an interview in London selling copiers. I mean, just, you know, grunt work hitting the pavement as entry level as it got there. And they set up the interviews back. They were doing crazy stuff in the 80s with interview, you know, crazy questions and weird approaches. And they did good cop, Bad cop. And while the good cop was asking a question, the bad cop would interrupt and be a total jerk about it and, you know, be really high pressure on me and almost be mean to me. And it just sucked. The whole thing sucked. And I decided, I don't want to work here. This is not where I want to work. So they get to the very end, we get through it. And then they broke character and they go, okay, well, we're glad that's over. You know, we were just pressuring you a little bit to see how you reacted. How'd you like that? And I went, I hated that. That was awful. They offered me a job because they just wanted somebody. To be honest, I didn't know. I found out afterwards with the guy back here in the States who kind of set the whole thing up, was like, they loved you because you were one of the few people who said, you know, I'm like, well, great, but I'm never working with them, so I don't want.
- [57:03]
Joe Salcihai
You don't you want to play the game?
- [57:05]
Doug
Don't want to be Elvis in the jumpsuit? Nope. Actually, I would love to do that gig.
- [57:11]
Joe Salcihai
You totally would have loved that gig. Yeah, absolutely. Well, this gig, speaking of gigs, that ends this week. Thank you guys for helping us round out our career branding week. I think those cautionary tales and then some of those great things people did to make their careers a big help to a lot of our stackers. Let's find out what's happening where you are. Oh, gee. Got big plans this fine weekend.
- [57:33]
OG
As a matter of fact, yeah, today's a big day for third graders. Every year the third graders get to do this. They, they think they're going on a field trip and instead what they find out when they get at the park is that they are on the Oregon Trail. They get wagons and they have to go through all the stuff that they've learned about the Oregon Trail and they run into, you know, bears and robbers and the sheriff and, you know, all the stuff. And so all the parents are, you know, in different.
- [57:58]
Doug
Does one kid get dysentery?
- [58:00]
OG
They do have a lot of that stuff. I mean, I don't really remember it that well from the boys, but. But anyways, so we're doing that today. It's a big surprise for the third grader, which is really fun.
- [58:10]
Joe Salcihai
That's awesome.
- [58:10]
OG
And then tomorrow is Alex's birthday, so he is officially a man tomorrow, according to him.
- [58:14]
Joe Salcihai
That's fantastic. And I saw his Facebook post about going to Texas A and M, so.
- [58:18]
OG
We'Ve gotten some pretty cool emails about that too already. Somebody sent me a list of steak restaurants, so that's pretty cool.
- [58:24]
Joe Salcihai
That's fantastic. Speaking of fantastic, we'll have our guest of honor, a fantastic guest of honor, go last, but also fantastic. Jesse Kramer. What's going on at Personal Finance for long term investors?
- [58:37]
Jesse Kramer
We are releasing an episode soon with Bill Yount from catching up to fi. And then last week I think we released our sixth AMA episode to some good success with a, with an emergency tariff episode in there too. So we've had some fun episodes recently over on fast, but you've had to.
- [58:53]
Joe Salcihai
Create some emergency tariffs.
- [58:54]
Jesse Kramer
It feels like it. It feels like it.
- [58:56]
Joe Salcihai
You're putting a 10% premium on the cost of your podcast.
- [58:59]
OG
Yeah, well, it was 145, so it is a much better deal now. At 10 tomorrow, it's going to be.
- [59:05]
Joe Salcihai
190 if you don't watch it, if you don't watch it, it'll be 190. And that's where people consume. Finer podcast personal finance for long term investors. We'll link to it in the show notes. Sandy Smith, thank you so much for your expertise today. And that was just the tip of the iceberg of the stories that you've, you've seen. I remember one about drug abuse that was kind of only one disconcerting.
- [59:30]
Sandy Smith
Was that the one who I put on a one way plane ticket or the one who threw up in the boss's new apartment?
- [59:37]
Joe Salcihai
Well actually I know both of those. But the one you put on the plane ticket home because they were too busy doing cocaine I think to actually.
- [59:46]
Sandy Smith
Attend the company event and trash the hotel room. Yeah, I've got some stories, Emily Guy Birkin says she should ghost write my stories because I've got so many up my sleeves. Tales from hr.
- [59:56]
Joe Salcihai
Oh my good. Well she's the top person to partner with if you're writing something.
- [60:00]
Sandy Smith
Yeah.
- [60:01]
Joe Salcihai
Yes, absolutely. Well tell us about the conference because people can now I believe this week you're going to be opening it up and people can sign up.
- [60:09]
OG
Yeah.
- [60:09]
Sandy Smith
Always free and online, lining up some speakers and things. So elevate again always is about intersectionality, always with a focus on finance and money and financial education and literacy. Because I feel like that is one of the ways that people can change their entire lives. I've always spoken many times about how mine has been changed through financial literacy for sure. So I want to continue to empower. Specifically this year would be black women with financial education and information that they can utilize which I think is very timely. That's just the niche that I'm focusing on this year. So go to elevate the 92% COM. You'll get more information as speakers are announced that you'll see who the speakers are. Always useful and timely information that people can then apply to their own lives because it's nice to speak in theory but you walk away with theory and if you have no action items then it doesn't make sense.
- [61:00]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, it's not about what you know, it's about what you do.
- [61:02]
Sandy Smith
Exactly. And putting it into place right now. So Joe's known me for a very, very long time. I started out life minus 200,000 plus net worth. Now it's seven figures on my own. You can definitely change your life and I want to continue helping other people change theirs as well.
- [61:19]
Joe Salcihai
Not changing just your life. The people around you's life, the people around you.
- [61:22]
Sandy Smith
Exactly.
- [61:23]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. Not just intergenerational wealth, but community wealth too, which is super important. And we'll link to it on the show notes@stacking benjamins.com yeah, and there are.
- [61:31]
Sandy Smith
Always more tales from HR stories if you want to see how Employees Behaving Badly. Yeah, I'm always.
- [61:37]
Joe Salcihai
That's the name of your book, Employees Behaving Badly.
- [61:39]
Sandy Smith
You know, from your lips to God's ears. Because there's lots of stories out there and I have to wait for different NDAs to expire so I can share more and more stuff.
- [61:48]
Joe Salcihai
And that's how you know you'll get continuing content from Sandy Smith.
- [61:51]
Sandy Smith
Yes.
- [61:52]
Joe Salcihai
All right. That's going to do it for today. Thanks to everybody hanging out with us on YouTube. Normally we're here later in the afternoon on Wednesdays about around 5:00pm Eastern time. Or Jesse, it's around 4:00pm Eastern time usually, right? 4:00pm Eastern. Yeah, I almost got my time zones wrong. You can reliably find us then if you want to hang out and say hello. Like we've got several people hanging out with us today. Thank you so much. Doug ends our Friday show and our week by informing us, what are the three things that should be on our big to do list now?
- [62:20]
Doug
Well, Joe, first, if you're someone who looks at your job like it's a singles bar with better lighting, take some advice from Jesse. What was that again?
- [62:28]
Jesse Kramer
Jesse, if you want to be a leader, don't be a bleeder.
- [62:32]
Doug
I have nothing to do. Okay. Second, Sandy said Michael Scott on the office had the right idea by focusing all his efforts on being likable. I get it. Right, Sandy? Did I nail that?
- [62:44]
Sandy Smith
Zipped it right up.
- [62:46]
Doug
Come on, what do you guys. But the big lesson. Speaking of career ending missteps. Remember your P's and Q's. Mom just tried to fire me because I forgot to thank her for telling me to unplug the toilet.
- [63:00]
Joe Salcihai
Geez.
- [63:02]
Doug
Thanks to Sandy Smith for joining us today. Check out her latest project on elevate the 92% up. We'll also include links in our show notes@stackingbenjamins.com thanks to Jesse Kramer for hanging out with us today. You'll find his amazing podcast Personal Finance for Long Term Investors wherever you listen to finer podcasts with really long names. And thanks also to OG for joining us today. Looking for good financial planning help? Head to stackingbenjamins.comog for his calendar. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome team@stackingbenjamins.com along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.
- [63:56]
Joe Salcihai
Oh, yeah.
- [63:56]
Doug
And before I go, not only should, you know, take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.
- [64:19]
Sandy Smith
What do you suppose they call that? A novelty act?
- [64:22]
Joe Salcihai
I don't know, but it wasn't too bad.
- [64:25]
Sandy Smith
Well, that's a novelty.