Lies We're Told at Work (with NBC Universal Vice Chairperson Bonnie Hammer) and Climbing into the Driver's Seat with Your Money (with BeyondFinance's Dr. Erika Rasure)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show
Episode Title: Lies We're Told at Work and Climbing into the Driver's Seat with Your Money
Release Date: May 26, 2025
Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy and OG
Guests: Bonnie Hammer (NBCUniversal Vice Chairperson) and Dr. Erika Rascher (Beyond Finance)

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A Thoughtful Memorial Day Reflection

In a special Memorial Day episode, The Stacking Benjamins Show delves deep into two pivotal topics: the misleading advice women receive in the workplace and the pervasive distrust Americans have in managing their own finances. Hosts Joe Saul-Sehy and OG welcome two esteemed guests, Bonnie Hammer, former Vice Chairwoman of NBCUniversal, and Dr. Erika Rascher, Chief Financial Wellness Advisor at Beyond Finance, to shed light on these critical issues.

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Unmasking Workplace Myths with Bonnie Hammer

Bonnie Hammer brings a wealth of experience from her tenure at NBCUniversal, where she played a pivotal role in greenlighting acclaimed shows like Suits and The Office. Her insights are encapsulated in her new book, 15 Lies Women Are Told at Work and the Truth We Need to Succeed.

1. "Follow Your Dreams" – A Double-Edged Sword
Hammer challenges the romantic notion of simply "following your dreams." She argues that early dreams are often influenced by external expectations rather than personal passion.

"Following those dreams or getting addicted to those dreams is kind of nightmare advice because you're missing out on opportunities that might lead you to something that's really a true passion or skill set that will create a path for success for you." ([19:13])

2. "Know Your Worth" – More Than Just Self-Esteem
While recognizing self-worth is crucial, Hammer emphasizes that in the workplace, one's value must be earned through consistent effort and contribution.

"You have to earn your worth. You are not entitled to anything. You have to be there, get up early, show up, stay late, and make others believe that you are worth molding, helping, developing, promoting." ([25:51])

3. "Have Friends in High Places" – Building Genuine Relationships
Rather than accumulating influential connections, Hammer advises cultivating truthful and supportive relationships that foster genuine team collaboration.

"It was about building teams. ... if I were looking at five and one very organically talked about the other people they worked with as a team, done deal." ([25:42])

Challenging Mentorship and the Thin Line to Toxicity
Hammer shares her transformative relationship with Barry Diller, highlighting the importance of challenging mentors who push you to excel without crossing into toxic behavior. She underscores the value of tough love in professional growth.

"We should absolutely seek them out. And that's the way we're going to learn. Because more often than not, they know that we are even more capable than we believe ourselves to be..." ([38:21])

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Empowering Financial Trust with Dr. Erika Rascher

Transitioning to financial wellness, Dr. Erika Rascher addresses a concerning statistic: half of Americans lack confidence in managing their finances. Her discussion centers on rebuilding self-trust and fostering a healthy relationship with money.

Understanding the Root of Financial Distrust
Rascher explains that financial mistrust often stems from emotional barriers and a lack of comprehensive financial education.

"If your emotions are in the way of that, if you are unable to think objectively or trust yourself... that's going to influence your overall ability to really take whatever you learn and practice it and apply it." ([47:14])

Practical Steps to Rebuild Confidence

1. Name Your Financial Feelings: Acknowledge emotions related to money to better manage them.

   "One of the greatest things you can do for yourself is name your feelings." ([48:58])

2. Journaling Spending Habits: Track purchases to identify emotional spending patterns.

   "If you're feeling anxious about money, say that you're anxious about money... a journal can be a really great way to do that." ([49:59])

3. Seek Professional Help: Collaborate with organizations like Beyond Finance for debt consolidation and financial wellness.

   "Beyond Finance really offers a nice place for people to go who are brave enough to take that option to really explore whether their perceived biggest financial failure or adversity can turn into their biggest financial success." ([73:00])

Gender and Generational Insights
Rascher highlights that women often report lower levels of self-trust in financial matters due to societal conditioning, while men might struggle with overconfidence, leading to risky financial behaviors. Additionally, generational differences reveal that younger generations like Gen Z are more engaged and balanced in their financial planning compared to older cohorts who faced economic traumas.

"Women do report lower levels of self-trust, which indicates that there is a confidence gap... men feel a different kind of pressure financially than women do." ([55:03])

Financial Practice Week: A Call to Action
The episode encourages listeners to participate in Financial Practice Week, promoting active engagement with personal finances through education and practical application.

"Dare yourself to go learn something, download a new app. ... make it like five, 10 years ago, and then you're looking at it now. It's totally different set of experiences." ([63:27])

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Bridging the Two Worlds

The conversation seamlessly intertwines workplace advice with financial management, emphasizing that professional success and financial wellness are deeply interconnected. Both guests advocate for proactive strategies—be it challenging workplace myths or adopting practical financial habits—to empower individuals in their personal and professional lives.

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Key Takeaways

• Debunk Workplace Myths: Recognize and challenge the misleading advice that hinders professional growth, especially for women.

• Build Financial Confidence: Address emotional barriers and seek knowledge to foster trust in personal financial management.

• Seek Support Systems: Whether through mentorship in the workplace or financial counseling, surrounding oneself with supportive and knowledgeable individuals is crucial.

• Embrace a Growth Mindset: Approach both career and financial challenges with curiosity and a willingness to learn and adapt.

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The Stacking Benjamins Show offers a rich blend of professional insights and financial wisdom, making complex topics accessible and engaging. Whether you're navigating workplace challenges or striving for financial independence, this episode provides valuable tools and perspectives to enhance your journey.

Transcript

[Joe]

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[Doug]

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[Joe]

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[Doug]

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[Joe]

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[Doug]

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[Joe]

Uh oh, sounds like somebody's got a.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Case of the mundus.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and welcome to a special episode of the Stacking Benjamin Show. Today we feature not one, but two mentors. Dose first, she was the vice chairwoman of NBCUniversal and she's here to teach us about the lies we're told at work. Bonnie Hammer. And then in the second half of this American holiday show with results of a study that shows half of Americans don't trust themselves, Managing finance from Beyond Finance. Dr. Erica Rascher. And of course I'll split flip the uprights between these two amazing guests by filling in some of my heartwarming Memorial Day trivia. And now, two guys who are already packed for a picnic in the park. It's Joe and O Ja J J.

[Joe]

Hey there Stackers. And I always struggle with what to say on Memorial Day. Is it happy Memorial Day? I don't know. But it is a holiday in the United States and for that reason we have a very special episode. And I hope you get some time to remember the people that helped us have the freedom that we so enjoy. Like we talk about on a lot of Mondays, in fact, on most Mondays we begin with a salute to our troops. I think we need to salute on a day like today all of those people OG who made the sacrifice. So on behalf of the men and women at Navy Federal Credit Union, People making podcasts in mom's basement. Here's to a very thoughtful Memorial Day. But we are going to think today about a couple different things. As Doug, you so eloquently said in the second half, managing your money. Well, Dr. Erica is the chief financial wellness advisor at Beyond Finance, and she's been on the show before and just brings this depth and wisdom that I think is great on a holiday episode like today's. But we're going to kick off today's show with the Bonnie Hammer. She was the former vice chair of NBC Universal. Some of these shows, guys that she green lit, you may have heard of before. I don't know if you heard of a little show called Suits. I finally finished it. By the way, Doug, I finished the last episode.

[Doug]

Okay. Awesome, man. Congrats.

[Joe]

Watch all 9,000 seasons. It got very up and down at the end. But the last few episodes, as they all do, totally worth it.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Okay. Psych, the sinner, Battlestar Galactica, Mr. Psych.

[Doug]

I get excited about, like, if she's responsible for psych. That show's so underrated.

[Joe]

She also greenlit shows like the Office. You may have heard of a little show called the Office. Bonnie Hammer joining us. And she's going to talk about the lies that were told at work. Lauded by the New York Times as the queen of cable and hailed as the most powerful woman entertainment by the Hollywood Reporter. Bonnie is going to kick off today's show. So that's our special show. You're going to hear from the two of them today. But before we get to them, we've got a couple sponsors that make sure our show can keep on keeping on and you don't have to pay a dime for any of this. Goodness. We're going to hear from them. And then Bonnie Hammer, Doug's trivia, and Dr. Erica Rasher. What a lineup today. Let's get moving. Today's show is sponsored by Strawberry Me Stackers. All right, everybody, let's talk careers. You know, you work hard, you bring in a paycheck, maybe even contribute to your 401k, like a responsible adult gold star for you. But here's the thing. Making money is great, but making the right moves to actually grow your career and earn more. Are you doing that because, let's be honest, hoping your boss finally notices you and hands you a raise? That is not a plan. That is a gamble. And unless you're the type of person who gets excited about betting their retirement on meme stocks, you probably want a better strategy. I certainly do. I Have a coach, Mary Lou, that I meet with every Monday morning. And Mary Lou and I lay out my week. We talk about doing the things that are important to my family, that are important for my health and the things that are important for financial literacy and stacking Benjamins and the intersection of all those things. And that's where Strawberry Me career coaching can help you. They'll match you with a certified career coach, somebody who knows how to help you get ahead. Like my coach helps me negotiate better pay and actually make smart money moves. So you're not leaving money on the table. You've heard me talk about this before. The key is to have people around you, smart people around you who hold you accountable to getting those things you say that you want for yourself. If you're anything like me, you've been meaning to quote, update your resume for like the last five years. I remember what Mary Lou said. Are we going to keep talking about this book? Are you finally going to write it? And I'm very proud of Stacked. But without Murray Lou, I would have never had Stacked. Your career is your biggest financial asset. It's time to start treating in that way. When I started treating it that way, things change. It can be the same for you. So here's the deal. Go to Strawberry Me. It's Strawberry Me stacking and you'll claim your 50 credit that strawberry me slash stacking. Because maximizing your earnings is just as important as maximizing your investments. Strawberry Me does not facilitate or provide healthcare services. Please consult with a healthcare professional. But guys, let's get smart people around us, shall we? I know personally that debt isn't just about money. It's about stress and sleepless nights and that constant weight on your shoulders. It can affect your relationships. It can tread your confidence. Truly, it can overshadow your whole life. So know that if you've ever felt any of that, you're not alone. There are millions of Americans struggling with debt. But there's a solution that can help. Beyond Finance was founded with a simple mission to help those struggling with overwhelming debt find a pathway to financial freedom. They can help you escape that endless cycle of making just minimum payments. Typical Beyond Finance clients see their payments on enrolled debt lowered by 40% or more than so you can expect immediate relief and the chance to start saving. The team prioritizes a hands on compassionate approach coupled with a focus on helping you get out of debt as soon as possible, save money and establish long term financial wellbeing. They offer personalized 24. 7 support and financial wellness sessions with accredited financial therapist. And you know you're in good hands with a trust pilot rating of 4.6 out of 5 stars. So if you're ready to take that first step or learn more about achieving financial wellness, visit beyond finance.com not available in all states. Fees vary by state. Results may vary. And I'm super happy she's here. She's the queen of cable. Bonnie Hammer joins us. How are you?

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

I'm great. Queen of cable was a label from a while ago, but I'll accept it.

[Joe]

I think once the queen of cable, always the queen of cable. And as a guy, by the way, who just finished Suits, and I know I was late to that party and it took me forever to get through it. I cried the last three episodes. I have to ask you, was there a series during your career, Bonnie, where you're like, there's no way in hell this is going to ever get made? It went through all kinds of maybe iterations and then the end result was maybe better than anybody could have ever expected.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

I'm not saying this because you brought it up, but Suits was in fact one of those series.

[Joe]

Was it really?

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

When I first got the script through my development people, it was the time where Boston Legal was on la. Law was kind of long gone, but it was still resonating in the world. And we read a pretty well written script by Aaron Korsch, but it just felt like the law world was old. So we basically rejected it. And we said to Aaron, I said, do something on Wall street. Do something somewhere else. We can't do another law show. So it took him a while to come up with another version of I don't even remember what it was called, but similar characters down on Wall Street. And it was boring as hell, like pulling teeth because you couldn't play the same games on Wall street as you can with the legal crazies that are going on. So we said, all right, try it again. So now we're about a year, year and a half past when we first rejected the show and we said two changes. One is we want a woman to basically lead this show. You know, that alone will be a change maker if we can get that right. Not a token woman. And the other was just give us a dollop of sarcasm or humor. Don't make it straight and don't make it only about the law. Make it more about the characters. He took it to a place that we never expected. And when we got back that script, that was it. We greenlit it and we went and it did amazingly well, on usa, we had it on, obviously, for nine seasons, and it was the number one show. And cable, it had a lot of pluses, but nowhere near the exposure till Netflix took it on and the resurgence. You're not the only one who basically found it at this later date. My kid watched it for the first time. I would talk about it for years, but he didn't even watch it till recently. So it's one of those shows that are enduring because the characters are really interesting. They're not predictable, they're imperfect, and there's a nice dollop of sarcasm.

[Joe]

Boy. And the strong women in that show, to your point, not just he didn't give you one strong woman. I'm thinking of three strong women as leads in that show.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Yeah, we knew Jessica. We knew that she would have a presence. She's a beautiful, tall woman. Gina Therese is an amazing human. But Sarah Rafferty, you know, who played Harvey's assistant, was amazing. And Megan, if you think about her role in all of this, before Megan was Megan.

[Joe]

Yeah, Donna and Rachel, just very strong characters, all three of them. That show, for me, was quite a roller coaster. You actually decided on this project, 15 lies women are Told At Work on a Roller Coaster.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

I kid you not. That wasn't just for color for the book. Every year, NBCU would take their senior executives and we would do an off site. And more often than not, we would end up in either la, at the Universal park or in Orlando. We were all kind of sitting around having cocktails. And this guy, Jimmy Horowitz, who I adore, who heads up all of the dealmakers making for the film side, basically dared me to go on the roller coaster. I do not like roller coasters. I have a little bit of fear of being upside down and thousands of feet up, but I'm also not good about dares. You dare me and you better believe I'm gonna take that dare. I don't know what it is. Some ego crazy things that then shrink with love. So I did it. I was petrified. They give out pictures, by the way, when you get off the door.

[Joe]

Oh, right, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

And you're upside down. I looked completely freaked out. My hair was up in the air and I was so red in the cheeks, it was crazy. But the truth was, when I was upside down in this thing, I realized I was one of the few chicks that was on this ride. It was all filled with guys laughing and screaming and smiling. And granted, I know a lot of people, not just women, a lot of people fear these rides. But I realized one of the main reasons had nothing to do with the fear. It had to do with really being afraid of mixing work and play and, in a sense, not being taken seriously. If you came off a ride the way I looked, you would be a mess for the rest of the cocktail session that was going on. And I think there was a genuine fear of not being taken seriously. So then I just started thinking of all the other cliches, aside from don't mix work with play, that we've been led to believe that really get in the way of women succeeding. Basically sabotage women and sabotage a lot of people. Not just women. Guys, too. But for me, I was looking at those women and what were the cliches or other pieces of bad advice that we've been told that will get in the way of succeeding? And that's where it started.

[Joe]

That's wild. I would think just as a guy, I wouldn't have any second thought about getting on the roller coaster. But I can imagine all the women I've worked with through the years, many of them would go, yeah, I can't do that. Like, there's no way anybody's going to take me seriously. You also mentioned you've been surprised by this project, that there are. And you said this just a minute ago, Bonnie. There's many men who found that they found this advice relevant as well.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

It was shocking to me, to be honest. When I first wrote it, I wanted to do 15 lies we are Told at Work. But Simon and Schuster, being marketers and booksellers, they wanted it targeted, focused, so they can market and promote it. So they felt a book written by a female should be targeted to females and it would sell better. But I've gotten an incredible amount of feedback from younger guys and older guys and many fathers who wanted, not unlike you, many fathers who wanted to give it to their kids, their sons, because they thought if they could lose the word woman in the title, there was useful advice in it.

[Joe]

Oh, 100%.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

What happens is there's so many advice books out there. How many books are out there that talk about bad advice? You know, things that we've been brought up to believe that just can hurt you. And so that was kind of the flip of what I wanted to do. It's basically a book about bad advice we're given and trying to turn it into the uncommon but common sense we really need.

[Joe]

Do you know what it reminds me of, Bonnie? You being in the entertainment business. It reminds me of a book that I read way back when I was in college, which was Henry Rogers wrote this book from Rogers and Cohen, the PR firm. He wrote a book called Rogers Rules for Success. And I remember just the level of gravitas and knowledge. Well, you know what? Let's just dive into some of these. Your very first lie, you become Bonnie the dream killer. This idea of follow your dreams, that, that it should be DOA right now. Why are you killing people's dreams, Bonnie?

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

It's not that I want to kill people's dreams. When you think about where do our early dreams come from? You know, my mom is whispering something in my ear about who she thinks I should be when I grow up, or perhaps what she wanted to be and couldn't be. That was for me. My mother wanted me to be a lawyer because all her life she wanted to be a lawyer and she really never made it to college. You know, Russian immigrants come here and she didn't quite get that far. They are from fairy tales. We read cartoons, superhero movies, perhaps even, of course, at college. But what do we know about. In that stage of life that gives us a window into what does that idea, profession, arena really mean? What does it take? What. What are the people like inside of it? And so basically, following those dreams or getting addicted to those dreams is kind of nightmare advice because you're missing out on opportunities that might lead you to something that's really a true passion or skill set that will create a path for success for you. I'm a big believer that you can find your dream or dream job later in life when you've been exposed to enough to understand who you are and whether something is going to be the right fit. Now, it doesn't mean giving up a passion. I mean, I started out in photography. The jobs I had, I hated every single one. And it just didn't feel right. But it doesn't mean I gave up photography. I still love it. I still shoot, but the camera's not my boss. But it did trip me into a profession that did become a dream job later in life. But it took a long time to understand that that's what fit me better. You know, when you're a photographer, you're alone. It's a sole profession. When you're in media, that has to do with images and imagery and telling stories, bigger stories, not a story in a single image. You're with people and I'm a people person.

[Joe]

That's so interesting. Just that subtle difference in finding the things that you love in the. The new career. How did you. How did you make the jump? You Were a photographer one day down at a TV station.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Yes. I started out. I was in a photojournalism major in college. And I took a couple of jobs after school. The first one, I was working in a dark room and a lovely Belgian photographer's studio in Boston. And for eight hours a day I was in the dark with my beautiful. What used to be manicured fingers in chemicals all day long.

[Joe]

Used to be?

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Yeah. And so my fingers slowly turned yellow, orange, green. That really wasn't, you know, with my vanity. Didn't suit me really well. He. Then I graduated up into his commercial studio. Then I started taking photographs with him, but I was really handing him stuff. But it was the reality that commercial photography didn't do it for me because it was artificial lights, artificial flowers, artificial everything. And to me, my image of photography was Cartier Bresson. It was the decisive moment. It was catching a candid image that told a story.

[Joe]

Almost like news photography.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Much more, yeah, in a lot of ways, yes. But even that, the next one was kind of chasing ambulance ambulances because that's the only way somebody who really had no experience getting photography. And that was basically sensationalism, didn't like that either. So I went back to graduate school and as a practicum to graduate, you did this kind of internship. So I was a freelance photographer working in a kitchen. When I say freelance, I was working for free to get credits in a show called Infinity Factory. And I was youngest production assistant, which was basically running around a studio following kids and a dog. And then one day they fired three production assistants. I don't remember why. And they just said to me, you want a job?

[Joe]

That's funny, because that was my next question. When I read that in the book, Bonnie, I'm like, how do 3 production. That's a bad day when you got to fire three production assistants on the same day.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

I have no idea. And I was probably too young and too naive to try to investigate it. Whether it was the people running the show that were not particularly interested or cool or supportive of younger people or they did something bad, I do not know to this day. And I really. I've looked back and said, why didn't I ask? But I think I was so hungry and so green. But as the youngest new associate producer production assistant on the show, everybody is assigned a cast member and there are a whole bunch of kids. But because I was the newest, I was the youngest, I was the most green. I got the dog. So I was basically Winston, a sheepdog's dog keeper, which Meant that on a union set where the crew is not going to pick up poop, I picked up poop, and that's how I started. But being in a studio with lights, cameras, directors, I knew that day this is where I wanted to be.

[Joe]

I want to skip ahead for just a moment because in one of your other lies, you. You mentioned the fact that really showing up to a job like that with a smile is a big, big part of what can make you successful. Everybody else doesn't want to pick up dog poop, Bonnie, but if you do that with a smile, that's going to pay dividends.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

You know, it's not just in the work environment. I'm a big believer in attitude and having a positive attitude. Just not grunting at grunt work or you can't get a yes from someone or it's a dreary day. Being positive, being optimistic, you know, having a smile on your face most of the time that's genuine, makes other people want you to be around them. So it just kicks that door open a little bit more. And if you're in an interview situation and there's a very serious person who wants to be taken very seriously and just has kind of a solemn look in their face, and you're both basically equal. Equal background, equal skills, equal number of jobs prior, you come in with some warmth, with a smile, with an attitude that says, I'll do anything, you know, just, you know, let me in and I will help. I will be there and we're going to have fun together. It just changes the way people look at you. They want you to be around, especially if it's real, if it's not put on for the interview.

[Joe]

Sure. Right. Well, yeah. How many times have you hired people where. I don't know. I got fooled a couple times when I was hiring people where I thought, oh, this is going to be a great team player. But did you mention, or am I dreaming this, that you said that this is. This was the number one? I mean, you've hired a ton of people, Bonnie. This was your number one criteria even before experience was just being able to work with them.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Without doubt. I mean, I've been very, very lucky. And I think when I look back at my teams and the only reason I succeeded to the degree I succeeded is because I had great people working with, for and around me. It had nothing to do with me. I hire wealth. What was important to me is that people didn't come in with their own agenda, that people knew how to collaborate, that people were not. It wasn't about me, I or if something good happened, that they took the credit for it, but it was spreading the credit. Because everything you do in the media business, there's nothing that's singular. It's all about teamwork. So for me, it was about building teams. So when I would interview people, so many people would come in trying to be impressed. They wanted me impressed with what they did, their skill set, their credits, whatever it was. But I listened to see how often they gave other people credit, how often did they talk about a peer or someone they worked with or a family member with some sign of warmth. And that's what I would look at. It's not that I didn't look at a resume to see if they had some background that fit, but if I were looking at five and one very organically talked about the other people they worked with as a team, done deal.

[Joe]

Lie number two that we're told you write is know your worth. We hear this all the time. I've been doing this podcast for 15 years. Bonnie, what's wrong with know your worth?

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

There's nothing wrong with the conceit of know your worth. We've been told over the years that unless you know your own worth, you're not gonna get anywhere, et cetera. There's a big difference between your personal worth. We are born with personal worth. Nobody should and can take that away from you. But on the job, you have to earn your worth. You are not entitled to anything. You have to be there, get up early, show up, stay late, and make others believe that you are worth molding, helping, developing, promoting. And you have to work at that worth. It's not a given that once you kick a door open because you show up and sit at your desk or make a few calls that you should get promoted. You have to prove that you're worth that. You have to be willing to raise your hand and say, oh, I'll do that. You have to make sure you're not grunting at grunt work that you're actually learning from and enjoying. If there's a task to be done instead of kind of, you know, hiding away because you hope they ask somebody else, raise your hand and say, I'll do it. And once you start showing people you're willing to work hard at something, they look at you as, okay, they're earning this. I want them around because they're going to do just about anything. They will succeed. I've been doing a little research because I'm trying to write another op ed to deal with kids getting out of college right now, understanding that you have to earn your work worth. And some of the research I've been looking into literally is saying, I think there were like 8 out of 10 different people that were interviewed in corporations are very leery about hiring a Gen Z person right out of college right now.

[Joe]

Wow.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Do not believe they have a work ethic. Their assumption is, number one, they don't want to be in the office. They're going to fight to basically work remotely. I'm not a big believer in that because if you're not in the room, you're never going to be in the room. And there's a belief that they just don't understand starting out in a work world and having to earn that worth. And so I have a little bit more research to do. But it's really interesting that the wrap is that some of the Gen Z's are getting right now has to do with just a lack of motivation, a lack of reality that you gotta start somewhere. So just put in the effort and wherever it is, show up, show up with a smile and do what is asked.

[Joe]

It isn't lost on me how these two first lies that we talked about, Bonnie, really go together. I mean, you're familiar, I'm sure, with the work of Carol Dweck and this idea of a growth mentality. And man, when you show up, heck, you even talk about in the book, your son working in the mail room, which I laughed because Mom. Mom wasn't going to make him the Nepo kid that Winston was the Nepo dog, that got to be.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Right.

[Joe]

But. But this idea that, hey, I'm in the mail room, which gets me access into all these different people's offices. I get to meet the people, I get to interface with the people. Like, even though I'm the kid in the mail room, there's so much I can learn from how this place operates.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yes.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Now, I'd be lying if I said that privately and quietly. He didn't whine and complain to me.

[Joe]

Well, that was me.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

I mean, they're not letting me use my brain. They're making me pack boxes. Jess, what did you think when you took a job in the mailroom? But he was wise enough to make friends. He was wise enough to basically wander around, drop off the mail, drop off the boxes. Obviously this is when they still had snail mail, or more of it, at least, and get to know people, ask if he could do something. He too learned how to raise his hand and say, I'm here. You need somebody to do an errand I'm around, it worked for him. And in my mind, everyone I know or whose son or daughter had that attitude is doing incredibly well right now. It's those that just basically assume the world's going to be giving to them on a platter just because, because they went to college, got a decent degree. It's not happening, especially in this world right now. When you think about all the restructures that are going on right now, you think about AI taking over so many jobs, companies being closed, restructured, things changing around us. You can't be that fussy. And if you try different things and try out different opportunities, it's just going to help you grow and be prepared to move in a variety of different directions, not stay on that singular path that you believe will get you somewhere.

[Joe]

This is the reason why I think it's also important to be in the office, Bonnie, is you see these things happen around you as well where if you're remote, you don't see all the struggles somebody else is going through and learn that you know from their mistake versus my own mistake. It's, it's absolutely crazy. You mentioned a few of the stars that you worked with over time who have learned from these things here. With this second lie, you really, you point at Kim Kardashian and how Kim Kardashian sometimes, well, tell us, how does Kim Kardashian play into this second lie?

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Kim and her mom. It's not just Kim. Chris taught her kids well. She taught them if they want something, they have to work hard at it, no matter who they are. The most impressive thing that I've seen from Kim, other than obviously showing up, working hard, doing the show, never calling, never doing anything that a well known popular influencer and celebrity would do. Kim had a shot of doing Saturday Night Live not that long ago. Kim has not posted that kind of show before where you have to do straight to camera and you have to have a sense of humor and you're working with all of these incredibly talented people on the set. She worked her way butt off preparing. She had things written and rewritten. She worked with the writers, she worked with a comic to help her get some, you know, basically timing and tone on the comedy that she was going to do, which she had never done before. I have never seen somebody work that hard that was so successful already. And she basically knocked it out of the park when she did the show.

[Joe]

Yeah, talk about leaning into it. I mean, I especially liked the skit she did with the Dating Game. Like that was so damn funny.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Unbelievable. And then if you think about her then getting called back for the 50th anniversary show she hosted once, she didn't. Wasn't a personal friend of Lauren. But lo and behold, because she did so well, she got invited back with all of those who've been on it for a gazillion years.

[Joe]

That's right. Cause that's when the Dating Game was. Was on the 50th anniversary. Yes. I want to touch briefly on your third lie, which is have friends in high places. And you talk about really, it's truth tellers all around you. But I want to focus on another relationship that really, it made me laugh. Maybe, maybe Bonnie, at your expense. Can you tell us about your relationship early on with Barry Diller? Because this, this just seemed like a.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Yeah, you won't be the first to laugh at my expense, but that's okay.

[Joe]

Seemed like a dirt road to hell, the beginning of this relationship.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Barry basically bought USA and sci fi. I think it was in the mid-90s. It was, you know, kind of in his heyday. Once he had been headed up Paramount and all these other entities. So major mogul had been qvc, hsn, all of that stuff he bought us. At the time, I think I was the vice president of development and original programming, usa. He gets us all together and what ends up happening is he makes me first a general manager of Sci Fi. I used to go to meetings and I was petrified of this man. I would literally, if I could be under the table in these meetings, so petrified, he would ask me a question. And then I started watching some people around me, one guy in particular named Steven, who used sense of humor with Barry, and Barry seemed to love it. So I slowly, over an 18 month period of time, started being able to respond to someone who scared the hell out of me. What I love about Barry to this day, and he is still, he's a mentor and he's now a friend, was that Barry is one of these guys that I call a challenging mentor. He is somebody that will test you and push you. And he puts the tough into tough love, where he's going to scrutinize you till you truly learn how to think. A quick example of what I'm talking about. Barry didn't let you get away with anything. You had to think out every single thing you did if you were going to get a yes from Barry to spend a penny, no less, millions of dollars. So we were about to greenlight a show for Sci Fi with a psychic and Barry decided that he wasn't sure about this idea. So this happened over a long weekend. We did not have cell phones then, so it was on a computer that you had to sit by all weekend long waiting for his exchange. And his question to me was, bonnie, if psychics are real, why would you put a psychic on a science fiction channel? And if they're not real, why the hell are we in business with him? Okay, Barry, this was back and forth, going through conversations and reasoning, and on a weekend, on a weekend, weekend in December. I remember it so clearly. And I finally was about to give in and say, okay, we're not going to have John inward on the show. But then I said, I'm trying one more thing. So my final argument to him as he's trying to get me to articulate why I believed it should be on Sci Fi, I said, barry, whether you or I believe psychics are real are completely irrelevant because psychics are in the eyes of a beholder. They are not fact, they are not fiction. There is something, let's call it friction, because it cannot be proven, Therefore, it's perfect for science fiction. He wrote back, okay, your arguments win. Go. So he forced you to think out anything you were about to do to try to get a yes, no matter what it took till it was clear. Now, if the show had failed, he never would have said, I told you so, because he accepted my arguments. He would have said, fine, good try.

[Joe]

We were all on board.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Yeah. And so he taught me so much, even though it scared the hell out of me. And what for me these days is really problematic that the younger kids going through corporate life right now don't get exposed to challenging mentors. Unfortunately, and I'm careful about talking about it, but our world has gotten so woke or overly woke that we're not allowed to say stuff that will help people grow. We're not allowed to critique in the way we were critiqued. Now, was Barry at that time probably a little too tough? Without doubt. But what he said and how he believed in me and how he knew I was more capable than I believed I even was at certain things. It's only his pushing that got me there. And we can't offer that to kids these days because we have to be very careful. Otherwise, they just run to the HR departments. HR gives you a call saying, now, what did you tell him? You told him he was lousy at something. I'm a big believer that challenging mentors, the foils, the tough love teachers, the sparring partners that are in the workplace are so valuable.

[Joe]

We should seek them out.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

We should absolutely seek them out. And that's the way we're going to learn. Because more often than not, they know that we are even more capable than we believe ourselves to be because they watch us and they know when they see and stop believing that they're being abusive. They're not. They're trying to help us.

[Joe]

Well, that's. That was exactly my next question. Is that because I'm 100% on board and really young, our young stackers really need to know where the difference is between this challenging mentor, this challenging boss, and a toxic boss. Like where. Where do you see that line at then, Bonnie?

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

It's a very fine line. And there's a definite line. There should be no tolerance for true abuse or toxic behavior. But you have to basically do your own work and your own homework to understand who you're dealing with. Who is this personality that's trying to teach me? Those who have come before you, who have worked with and for him or her, where do they end up? Do they remain friends? Do they remain. Is the person still a mentor or a guide to them? It's taking a look at the big picture rather than the word that is said in that room. Tough love and tough mentoring can be done with kindness, too. These days in particular, you can give tough information and advice to people in a kinder way. Barry was a different generation. I was lucky enough that I had someone earlier in my career back in Boston who was a little soft version of Barry. His name was Michael, who got me ready for Barry. But my styles, I've always been very, very honest with any and everybody who's worked with. And for me, to the point where they could question me too. But it was always with, this is what I think you're not doing right, and this is what I think you need to do and why. And I would give them a period of time to think about it, to work on it, to try it. But it wasn't done with negativity. It was done with compassion. And I think probably, if not all, most genuinely believed that. All I cared about was them. How they performed, how they grew, how they worked with the team so we could all succeed. It had nothing to do with me trying to control them more.

[Joe]

The betterment of me as the employee, making me a better employee through the tough love versus just being a screamer.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Correct.

[Joe]

Yeah. I've always been attracted.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

That's no need for screaming.

[Joe]

Sure. But even. You know what's funny is that. And I know some of this is just tv, but like a Gordon Ramsay where he's fighting with the restaurant owner. But, you know, it's because he loves the restaurant. He wants to see us succeed. Like, he's on their team. And that's why they're having this heated discussion of putting some heart behind it.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

It's very true. And it's not to say it didn't make me crazy. I literally had a. I took like, boxing classes on the weekend. I had a boxing bag that had Dillard's name on it. I would go and punch the hell out of this thing. And I would show up again on Monday and I'd be fine.

[Joe]

And look at you now. It's Bonnie Hammer. The Hammer, right?

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Yes.

[Joe]

The book is the 15 lies women are Told at Work and the Truth we need to Succeed. As you've heard today, Stackers, it is blunt. It is straightforward. There are. There's so many tactical lessons here. And we just did stuff from the first, mostly the first two chapters. It's been out for about the last six days. Bonnie, thank you so much for mentoring our stackers today. I super appreciate your time.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

I'm delighted. Love talking with you. Hope to do it again sometime. And I wish your son good luck.

[Joe]

Well, thank you.

[Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor. Dug in on Today's date. In 1971, Don McLean recorded the masterpiece song American Pie, Commemorating the day that the music died, McLean writes that she took the Chevy to the levy, but the levy was dry. So here's today's money question. In 1971, if she took the Chevy to the levy, what model Chevy was she most likely driving based on sales at the time. I'll be back right after I see if I can write a song about the Pontiac Aztec. Man, I missed that car. Or wait, is it a truck? A minivan? I still don't know.

[Joe]

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[Doug]

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[Joe]

Not just a ride or dinner at your door.

[Doug]

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[Joe]

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[Doug]

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[Joe]

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[Doug]

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[Joe]

Uber on our way.

[Doug]

Hey there stackers. I'm Pontiac Aztec Lover and the guy who's all about modern art, apparently. Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. The classic Chevy Automobile of the 1970s was a staple of the car culture at the time. When Don McLean wrote American Pie back in 1971, he wrote about a Chevy based on sales. Which Chevy was he probably writing about? The answer? A chevy chevelle. In 1971, GM sold the 464,000 chevelles for an average of $2,872 each. Which sounds like a bargain until you realize that's about $22,250 in 2025. Wait a minute, that's still a bargain today. Sign me up. And now let's head back to Joe and our second mentor on this holiday episode of Stacking Benjamins.

[Joe]

All right, in our first half, you just heard Bonnie Hammer helping us make more money and do better at work. But what's the point of making more money if we don't do the right stuff with it? And that's why I'm super happy Dr. Erica's back. How are you?

[Bonnie Hammer]

I am so good. Thanks for having me back. I'm so excited. I love this podcast.

[Joe]

I well, thank You. And as you know, we love you and we love beyond finance, but let's dive in. You, you guys sent me a study that you had seen recently that is very disturbing. And let's just cut to the chase, Dr. Erica. Half of Americans don't trust themselves managing finances. That's not a good number.

[Bonnie Hammer]

It's not. It's not. And when we think about trust, we have to think about it in terms of how important it is to really trust ourselves and the way we make decisions so we can do the right things to stay on course, but also know when to course correct and know when to do it in a way that feels good to us, that feels confident and knowledgeable and not scary. And I think that's where this trust piece comes in. Because the less you trust yourself, the more likely you are to act from a place of fear or scarcity and not know what to do or be so overwhelmed with all of your options that you have decision paralysis.

[Joe]

Well, that's the thing I used to think, you know, people didn't trust himself because there wasn't enough knowledge out there. Right. So even, even when I was a financial planner, I thought, man, I wish there was more stuff on the Internet now that I'm on the financial media side. And you know, Dr. Erica, there's stuff all over the place. There's so much stuff like, why, where should we begin if we're. Obviously, they came to the Stacking Benjamin show, which is a nice place, but how do I begin to maybe build myself a curriculum to trust myself more and gain some confidence?

[Bonnie Hammer]

The confidence piece obviously can start with this understanding of some knowledge and getting a basic understanding. And so many people don't have that education piece on lock, but education is just part of it. You can know all of the right things when it comes to money, but if your emotions are in the way of that, if you are unable to think objectively or trust yourself and your emotions aren't healed or you feel unhealed in some way, that's definitely going to influence your overall ability to really take whatever you learn and practice it and apply it. And one of the things that's interesting is May is also Mental Health Awareness month. Mental health and finances often go hand in hand because money intersects with every aspect of your life. And so I really think that first place to start is getting a good pulse on what you know and what you don't know about money. And then also looking at what's going on when you are thinking about money and how that fits feels to you. And how that has played out in your life. It's so much initial reflection to get started down that path of financial transformation.

[Joe]

What do we do then? Do we just. I mean, do we write it down? Do we give it a name? Like, where do we start there?

[Bonnie Hammer]

Oh. One of the greatest things you can do for yourself is name your feelings. You know, if you're feeling anxious about money, say that you're anxious about money. If you're feeling stressed about money, say that you're feeling stressed about money. And if you're in debt, say, I am in debt and it makes me feel XYZ or I don't feel confident. Once you name it, you can tame it. And once you're there, you can take those steps to maybe journaling is the method for you. One of the things I worked with my clients over the years over is so many people have a really hard time with budgeting. And one of the interesting things in the survey that we did is 69% of people say, okay, I'm going to get better with budgeting. And I think everybody tends to say that, right? But when you are looking at your budgeting and you're looking at your spending and you are consistently overspending and you don't know why, that's a place where we don't need to look at the budgeting ins and outs of dollars so much as we need to look at how you're feeling when you're spending that money. And a journal can be a really great way to do that.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Wow.

[Joe]

So beyond the dopamine hit, you know, because initially I feel good, but as you know, better than most because of what you do. Dr. Urken. Because I remember when I was just horrible with money, I would get that dopamine hit. And then, like, probably a lot of people you work with, 20 minutes later, I got this huge feeling of guilt, right? Like, how why did I buy this stupid thing? And now I'm in a worse situation than I was 20 minutes ago.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. And I relate so much. You know, I have a PhD in Personal Financial planning. I am really educated in this space. But one of the things I have struggled with, struggled with, and struggled with for so long was my own ability. Ability to budget and stick to a budget because of those dopamine hits. I know myself well enough to know I tend to be an emotional spender. And so it didn't matter what emotion it was. If I was feeling a big emotion, I was going to spend it. And I couldn't get to the Budgeting piece, the dollars in and dollars out, until I honestly kept a journal in my glove box, in my car, and forced myself to write about whatever purchases I made, to start seeing those patterns within myself, to find that accountability, to look at those dopamine hits and to play the tape forward. It's looking at how you are going to feel when you make that purchase. In person, it might feel really good in the moment, but by the time you get out to your car or by the time you hit order on Amazon, you're already feeling it. That guilt, that shame. And that's something I struggled with, and probably something you struggled with, too, is, I know better than this. I have this. But that shame can hit anybody. And that's what's so important about. You know, one of the things I say all the time is debt doesn't discriminate. And all of us have financial challenges, and people just aren't alone in this.

[Joe]

That's. Well, because my first instinct, and maybe yours, too, was to bury it. You know what? I'm just going to do better, Dr. Erica. I'm just going to do better tomorrow. Tomorrow, I'm going to do better. I'm going to do better. I'm going to do better. And to your point, the second that I went, you know what? I need help getting out of this, that's when help showed up. Because I realized the same brain that got me into this problem wasn't probably the same brain that was going to get me out of it.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Absolutely. And I think that is such an important observation to make about yourself. It's so human to, you know, put things off tomorrow. It's very Scarlett o' Hara. Oh, I will think about this tomorrow. But if you can put yourself in the mindset of, you know what? I keep doing the same thing over and over and over, and it keeps making me feel really bad. Why am I punishing myself? Why am I the person making myself feel this pain? I wouldn't treat somebody else this way, and so why am I treating myself this way? And when you can find that place where you can say, all right, I don't have to do this alone, and it takes so much courage to be able to say that. But when it comes to money, I think there's so much pressure there to know everything there is to know about money. And so if you don't have a particular set of skills or set of knowledge, people feel stupid and they feel dumb and they don't know what to do to get help. And so they freeze and they stay stuck in their shame and they stay stuck in their guilt. And it really is a huge lift to get to that point to say, I do need help. And once you are at that point where you, you can forgive yourself for what you, you don't know what you know until you know and allow yourself to get that place of knowledge with the help of other people. You know, we're not supposed to do life alone. We're not supposed to do money alone.

[Joe]

Yeah, it's wild. A good friend of mine, Yanali Espinal, who's an amazing financial educator, she's like, if you give me a test, give me a test, I'll ace it. Like, I know what the criteria is. But when it comes to money, there never was a test, There never was a. And yet we're expected to do the things that Bonnie talked about in the first half of today's show and then turn around and we're going to do great stuff with this money. But there's, you know, education is scattered, it's coming into schools, but it's not as good as it could be. It's all over the place. It's funny with what you do and with what I used to do. I wish more people could have been in these meetings with me to see how everybody's feeling the same stuff. Like, it's wild how people would come in. Like, I don't know much about this. I'm like, that's every person that came into my office. And it is really sad, Dr. Erica, to see that over and over and over. Do you, do you find a difference, though, between men and women? I mean, you know, Bonnie talked about women are being lied to at work, men are being lied to at work. Is it the way we feel money? Do you find that there's any gender specific? Specificity? Specific, I can't say the word. You know what I'm talking about.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Specificity.

[Joe]

There you go.

[Bonnie Hammer]

There we go. But yeah, absolutely. You know, and even in our study that we, we just did, you know, women do report lower levels of self trust, which indicates that there is a confidence gap. You can trace that back to socialization, gender roles, you know, whatever you want to call it. There's so many potential root influences there, but women do have a different set of emotions and a different set of, you know, confidence and self trust. And so I think women in general, and you talk about your previous guest who's talking about, you know, how to make more money at work and, you know, how to ask for a raise and what do we do with that money when we're done.

[Joe]

Right.

[Bonnie Hammer]

I have worked with so many women over the years who don't self advocate for themselves when it comes to money in the workplace. And it's because in so many cases they're never taught to. They don't feel like they are necessarily worthy enough of this. Or if they do get a job offer, they don't want to risk the offer being rescinded because they negotiated or asked for more money. That to me just, it's such a, a problem. That's all like. But I also think that men and male relationships, I think money is likely more discussed a little bit more often. And I think for women it's not discussed as often. And you know, money as we know, it's still a taboo topic. It's getting better, it's getting better. But when you have very gender specific differences, there isn't that opportunity for women to build that self trust and that confidence maybe as effectively or quickly as men do.

[Joe]

Yeah. When I hear women, when I'm teaching a class and I hear women tell me, you know, I, I'm just not as good at this, and I hear it much more often from women than men, My first thought is, you know, nobody's born good at this. Nobody is. And, and sometimes I think the men suffer as much from overconfidence and then they take risks that maybe they shouldn't take. I see that more often play out with men. I'm like, why are you doing that? Oh, because it'll turn around. It's going to be great.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yeah. And you know, and I see that too. And I think also from that gender perspective, men do experience a different kind of pressure than women do when it comes to money. I don't think these are necessarily things that can be ignored. You know, each gender has their own set of obligations or the way they were socialized, whether that be by parents or school or church, whatever that looks like. There are natural differences there. And so I think men feel a different kind of pressure financially than women do. I think the female pressure versus the male pressure, they're both pressure, but they're different.

[Joe]

Well, for men, I found admitting that you're wrong. Admitting that, you know what, I might need help with this. Like, how often is my wife accused me of not wanting to go ask somebody for directions?

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yeah, right. Yeah. It goes back to that old trope, you know, I'm not going to ask for directions. I can fix this leaky faucet myself. I got it, you know, I got this.

[Joe]

Just wait till the repair Bill is going to be really big. After I really mess it up, then I'll get help. Yeah, right.

[Bonnie Hammer]

You know, and you think about perceptions of weakness as well, you know, and I think that's where a lot of that comes down to is you feel weak and then that leads to guilt or shame or why didn't I pick this up better from my family? Like, why am I the odd man out here?

[Joe]

What about different generations too? Do you find things in your study? Things change generationally?

[Bonnie Hammer]

Oh, yeah. You know, things of course, you know, are going to be different generationally. And you look at our silent generation or our baby boomers, they're much more methodical, a little bit more balanced in terms of both their short term and, and their long term goals. It's our Gen Zers who really are engaged with their money is the way I would describe it. They're taking an active role and setting themselves up for success.

[Joe]

That's cool.

[Bonnie Hammer]

It's cool. And it's also interesting, as compared to baby boomers or the silence, they're a little bit more focused on that short term goal as well. I wouldn't say they're less balanced. And I definitely don't want to give the impression that they're, they're all about the experiences and spending money on those things, but they are definitely integrating that, I think, with older generations. I think there was this idea that you work and work and work and work and then you retire and then you can have fun with your money. I think Gen Z has got it figured out that you can do all of it and you can really plan for your future. You can plan for years ahead, but you can also have a little bit of fun with that money, which that kind of approach is probably one of the most breathtaking of them all. It's, it's just a general sigh of relief for me to hear that people can enjoy money while additionally saving for it. And then, you know, we've got our poor millennials and our Gen X kind of stuck in the middle. And I'm an elder millennial, I'm like on the very oldest rung of that. But millennials and Gen Xers, they really still struggle with economic trauma that they've experienced throughout their lives. And, and also they struggle with, with trust. And it's not only the trust of themselves, but also of financial institutions and everything else that has been a struggle for Gen Xers and millennials.

[Joe]

Well, I mean, Dr. Erica, look at a lot of our millennials were just beginning to save and invest during the financial Crisis. So I think that's why, I mean, just in your formative years, you're seeing all these banks go under, companies going bankrupt, people, good people, smart people, losing their houses, in debt up to their eyeballs for, you know, losing their jobs. I think people may have learned some maybe not great messages in their early saving years.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Absolutely. And when that was going on, I just kind of really started in my career. You know, I was only like three or four years into it. That was around the time I was hoping to buy a house. And everything changed. Underwriting, mortgage underwriting changed. Everything changed.

[Joe]

You couldn't just say you made X amount of money, whatever you wanted anymore.

[Bonnie Hammer]

No, no.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Yeah.

[Bonnie Hammer]

No doc. Loans were a no fig anymore. And there's other people, the younger generations and the people who are 10 years younger than me, and they're watching their parents lose their jobs. It's scary and frightening. And so there is this huge amount of distrust that affects that particular generation and. And their ability to do things that other generations couldn't do. And it's not because of avocado toast. And avocado toast, for the record, is delicious.

[Joe]

As a millennial, Cheryl, my spouse, is squarely in Gen X like I am, and is completely in love with avocado toast. Avocados are fine. Avocados and toast, not on my menu. You know, for a lot of millennials, I think it's interesting going back again, like financial therapy, something, you know, way more about than I know. So important to go back and look and why am I thinking about this? Like, what are my emotions around it? For Gen X, I think it's not the financial crisis. I know what the problem is with Gen X. Dr. Erica, I am ready.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Tell me.

[Joe]

Yes. So we grew up with buying all these records, and we had this record collection, and then we had to go to cassette tape, so we had to get rid of that and go to cassettes. Then we had to get rid of the cassettes and go to CDs, and then we had to go to MP3s, and now we have to have a subscription. Like, you know how many times I bought the same damn song? Yeah, it was. The whole reason I was in debt was grand ran. I mean.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Would you say you're hungry like the wolf?

[Joe]

That's right. It's a theory. Could be a really, really bad one.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yeah, I like the theory. You know, and what's old is new again, right? You know, you go to records. How many years ago did you get your records just to buy those again?

[Joe]

Probably. I know. If I wrote down all that, like, just getting through all that. All right. Something that you guys were talking about last month, but something that's still important in May is this idea of Financial Practice Week. Can we talk about Financial Practice Week? I know that it's already happened in terms of beyond finance, talking about it, but I think for our stackers, heck, this week's a great week to have Financial Practice Week.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yeah, Financial Practice Week, I totally love. One of the things I never had on my bingo card was I would help found a national holiday. So that's fun for me. One of the things I think is so important about financial literacy, it's so important just to have the knowledge and getting that initial education, but where do they get to apply those things? And so the whole basis of Financial Practice Week was to highlight the need of not only getting the knowledge, but doing something with it when you got it. And sometimes that looks like starting to budget or playing around with some apps, finding the one that works for you, but it also looks like reflecting on your current status and being like, I don't know as much as I would like to about money, I'm going to start Googling. I'm going to take a look at what Investopedia says about this, or I'm going to phone a friend and say, what do you know about this? And start to be curious and get those answers and start to get okay with asking for help and finding that autonomy and that confidence and being okay with not having to know everything, but also being okay enough to start applying what you do know to get to where you want to go.

[Joe]

Let's do that this week. Stackers. I mean, it's Memorial Day or maybe just after. As you're listening to this, I just love the idea of, you know, dare yourself to go learn something, download a new app. I just. You know what I just did, Dr. Erica? I just re downloaded. I'm going to make a video about it. That Acorns app.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Did you really?

[Joe]

Just for fun.

[Bonnie Hammer]

That's awesome.

[Joe]

Yeah, just a friend was talking about. I'm like, you know, I used to use Acorns and I stopped. I'm just going to download it again and see how it's changed and have some fun. But just, I don't know, this growth mentality. It sounds like to me what you're talking about is make it. Make it get away from the shame and let's just play a little bit.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Yeah.

[Bonnie Hammer]

It's so frustrating. And I love that you're doing Acorns again. I think Now I want to do acorns again, but you have a different set of eyes on it. You look at it like five, 10 years ago, and then you're looking at it now. It's totally different set of experiences. But this is the thing with money, and I wish people would understand this, and I say this from the depths of my soul. Money can be so fun. It really can. But you have to get past the idea that it's not that it is a. The bane of your existence, that it is a purely negative thing. At the end of the day, money is a tool. It is a tool. It's energy. It is. It's what you make it. And if you are consistently stuck in that mindset of money equals madness or money equals pain, money equals never being good enough, it's going to stay that way for you. What if. Instead of saying, what if it is bad, let's play with it a little bit, Try some things. And. And I don't think there's enough emphasis on. On being able to. Or being okay with trying things and being curious. You know, I tried every budgeting app there was out there, and I didn't like one of them, and it turned out to be my emotions. But it was the journal that really helped me get that budgeting piece in line. And so it's finding those pieces, like, be curious about your emotions. Have fun with it.

[Joe]

Like a science experiment. Let's go eff it up a little bit, you know?

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yes, yes. And take that approach to it. And once you start taking that approach and you allow yourself space to make mistakes or have some freedom, that's where it can get really fun. Nobody is perfect on this journey. The clients I work with at Beyond Finance, you know, I've got clients in there who are older or younger, who make six figures, who don't make six figures, who are doctors, who are not doctors. Have $380,000 in debt, 25,000. It's all over the board. But all of those things, as scary as it can be, you know, being in debt, what a great place to find yourself, to rethink and just edit your financial foundation for the future. What are you learning from this? And how is this different than anything you've ever experienced? And it's finding the peace amongst the pain. But that peace will make a whole, whole big difference in the way you approach money going forward. If you can make peace with the mistakes you made. We are not our mistakes.

[Joe]

Well, I was super excited, Erica, when I found out that we were going to be partnering together. Because this is such an important topic that we talked about today about getting your money together, getting your life together, really going deep on your feelings and really getting beyond the debt. Tell everybody what Beyond Finance is about so we can kind of dive into what this partnership's about.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yeah. So Beyond Finance, you know, as far as I'm concerned, is one of the greatest companies I've ever had the pleasure of working with. One of the reasons is because they are one of the nation's leading and largest debt consolidation organizations. But they are so committed in providing just this really incredible, empathetic and really smart way for clients to move beyond debt by truly just helping people lower their monthly payments and reduce that impact of that interest and reach that debt free life sooner. What's nuts to me, you know, right now the latest statistics are saying that consumer debt is $1.21 trillion.

[Joe]

Duh. And it just keeps going up, keeps going up.

[Bonnie Hammer]

And that is the thing that keeps me up at night. I get to work with a thousand or so Beyond Finance clients a month. And I'm always worried about the people who aren't in those rooms with me because there are so many people burdened by debt. And instead of them having to wait 20 or 30 years to maybe make it out of their debt with a minimum payment situation, they have the ability to get out in, let's say, four years. I think the experience, at least from what I've observed in my interactions and working one on one with Beyond Finance clients is it is that life experience that really does bring people to what I call the financial condition of debt. It is a temporary condition, but it is a condition nevertheless. But that's often precipitated by things like job loss or the loss of a partner, or whether that's death or divorce, or they lose their health in some way.

[Joe]

There's been some big event that happened when I was a financial Planner that was 100% of the time.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yeah. And so when people find themselves in this giant financial condition of debt and they're still reeling from the life experience that brought them there, that stress, that anxiety, that depression, that uncertainty, I mean, that's what keeps them up at night. That's what causes the sleepless nights and the tummy aches and the headaches. Beyond Finance really offers a nice place for people to go who are brave enough to take that option to really explore whether their perceived biggest financial failure or adversity can turn into their biggest financial success. And I think Beyond Finance really great creates a pathway for them to do that. By providing them not only the financial support and means to do that with their program, but also providing them with that financial wellness, that holistic financial wellness support, which is what I have a direct role in for their emotional and psychological and mental wellbeing so they don't have to go it alone.

[Joe]

I want to dive into tactically just how it works, like how the program kind of works at the beginning, what people can expect. Because if somebody's looking at this, like we said before, people are feeling shame, they feel nervous. You don't want to tell people about this. You're. You're worried about who you bring into the corner. You've also heard a lot about the industry. We've had experts from other companies on to talk about, as you know, more than most, Erica, how some of the companies out there doing this. Which is why for me, it was so important that we found a good partner. Because the predatory stuff, there's a place at the inner ring of hell for people that prey on people that already just have so much adversity in their life. So for me, when I was in debt, because I want to Stackers, take a second and talk about my story. When Dr. Urka said, you may have four years to go and then you've made your situation a ton better, that may feel like a long time. I got to tell you what happens in real life, because this is what happened to me back in the 90s when I was a money disaster, when I made the decision that I needed better people in my corner and I had to, I had to get serious about this because as we said earlier, the same mind that got me into this, it wasn't going to get me out. I needed to surround myself with better people. The second that I realized that I was in charge, even though, Erica, for me it was probably about a four year journey, by the end of the first year, by the way, I was doing so much better. And then I kind of gamified it in my head and it was really fun. But it was wild that within the first month, even though on paper things looked almost exactly the same, the fact that I had a strategy and I had a team and we were looking at this holistically now with the creditors, I was like, no, I'm in control. No, no, no, no, I'm. And I got to tell you, Dr. Erka, just having that more holistic view that you guys do that to me is what's really attractive about beyond finance.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yeah. And that is such an important thing to consider, that sense of control when you are dealing with an excessive amount of debt and you've got this tremendous amount of shame and you're grumbling with the emotions and the finances of it all. And I mentioned earlier, you lose that trust in yourself. You know, that confidence starts to go down and then you don't feel like you're in control and you feel like all these external circumstances are just beating you up. It becomes exhausting, it becomes tiring. And then that's where some of that decision paralysis comes from. One of the greatest things people can do for themselves is take control of their control. We are not hopeless. We are not helpless. And sometimes it feels that way. But Dolly Parton has this really great quote, and I say it all the time.

[Joe]

You know, I think she's got like 90 great quotes, by the way.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Oh, she's amazing.

[Joe]

She is incredible.

[Bonnie Hammer]

But the one I say all the time is, if you want the rainbow, you've got to put up with the rain. You might be weathering a massive financial storm, whether that's debt or otherwise, but you are in control of this. And it's going to rain sometimes in life and it's going to suck. And you might not always know what to do, but you can at least take control to the point where you can start looking for other people that can help you. And there's no shame in asking for help, even though that's what has been told to so many people when it comes to their finances for so long. And it becomes a vicious cycle. And so if you're going to get out of that rain and hope for that rainbow, you've got to break the cycle. You've got to change your mindset a little bit. You've got to change the way you care for yourself. And you know, if you would extend a stranger compassion and kindness, why aren't you doing it to yourself? As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to debt, sometimes that looks like picking up the phone and calling beyond finance and saying, I am scared. I have $120,000 in debt. I don't know what to do. I'm making sixteen hundred dollars a month in payments. I can't do anything. I'm not making a dent. I can't pay my bills. My water's about to get shut off. What are my options? That's where you find your control. That's where you start to build that trust back in yourself. And it's not always evident at the beginning that four years can be a scary rough ride, but boy, is it better than that. Alternative of a 20 or 30.

[Joe]

Then, like, we started this conversation. Confidence is everything. Just feeling that confidence. When I felt that confidence, I was so much better off. Well, I'm super happy you could mentor our stackers today and we could talk about this holistically, because it's not just about that credit card bill. There's clearly something going on under the hood, and I think that's so important for people to get more. BeyondFinance.com.

[Bonnie Hammer]

Yeah, I would send them exactly there. BeyondFinance.com, we've got a great blog that people can take a look at. The newsroom always has something interesting as well, but we have just a ton of information out there. And like I said, if you're struggling with debt or any sort of financial challenge, ask yourself, what if this doesn't go wrong? What if it goes right? And ask for help. Make that phone call, whether it's to be on finance or to a friend or listen to another podcast. Do something to where you can start building that confidence and trust back in yourself. Our mental, our emotional, our psychological, it just intersects with everything.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Money.

[Bonnie Hammer]

And if we can get one thing to improve, the other will improve, too.

[Joe]

All right, Doug, take it from here. What should we have learned today?

[Doug]

First, take some advice from Bonnie Hammer. Don't believe the lies at work. Chart your own course and you'll be much better off. Second, struggling to make ends meet. Lay out the budget, build your emergency fund, and get rolling. Maybe use a reputable group like Beyond Finance to help you find your way to a brighter future. But the big lesson, don't let Joe and OG talk you into just one ride in the El Camino down to the park for our picnic. Not my first rodeo, gents. This is just two guys who want a designated driver for the afternoon. Well, not today, Satans. Thank you to Bonnie Hammer for joining us. Today you'll find Bonnie's new book, 15 Lies Women Are Told at work, wherever books are sold. And thanks also to Derek. Derek, that's Dr. Erica when you just combine it. Derek.

[Joe]

I think she'd like that name.

[Doug]

Okay, we're gonna run with it. Thanks also to Derecka Rascher for joining us. Head to BeyondFinance.com if you're struggling with money. She worked so hard to get a doctorate, and I just blast right through it. This show is the property of SP Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025, and is created by Josal Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.

[Joe]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug]

And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

Sam Foreign.

[Joe]

Welcome to the after show special Memorial Day after show. Since you didn't hear much from us, mostly from Dr. Erica and body Hammer today, back last Wednesday, we were talking about mom and her potty mouth, referring to how cool J.L. collins was. But did you guys get your mouth washed out with soap?

[Doug]

Yep.

[Joe]

You did, Doug.

[Doug]

Yeah. And this was in the 70s when, like, there was barely any parenting going on. In the 70s and early 80s, they were all faxing it in. Now the whole trend is gentle parenting. Look, you had. You got nothing on parenting in the 70s. My parents didn't know where I was during the Ford administration.

[Joe]

Go ahead and stick your finger in that light socket. You'll learn your lesson.

[Doug]

Yeah, but. But despite all of that complete ambivalence, I got my mouth washed out for saying bastard.

[Joe]

Did you really?

[Doug]

Yes.

[Joe]

Wow.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe]

OG had the opposite. His parents were teaching him how to use it correctly in a sentence.

[Doug]

Look, you little.

[Joe]

If you're going to drop the F bomb, it needs to. Needs to be in a sentence. So I'm in first grade. My brother is four. Across this field, I lived way out in the country was Robert Eastman. And Robert was in third grade. So Robert was the kid closest to my age. So I played with Robert all the time. He was that kid. This is funny, Doug. Nick, my son, comes home from school one day and goes, mom, what is French kissing?

[Doug]

No.

[Joe]

Yeah. And Cheryl said, you've been hanging out with Jack Grobel. And Nick goes, yeah. How did you know? Because. Because Jack and I think. I think Doug, you know, the Grobles. Jack was like the youngest of five kids. And Jack.

[Doug]

And so you see some stuff.

[Joe]

He grew up quick. Yes. Robert was the youngest of four. I remember going over to Robert's house to spend the night one night, and we watched the Pit and the Pendulum. I'm in, like, second grade, and I'm horrified watching people that are. That are just going to die. Very, very afraid. But it's Sunday. We were getting ready for church, and my dad would always put my brother and I in the backseat of the car ahead of time so that they could get ready in peace. And so we're sitting in our Sunday.

[Doug]

Hour ahead of time.

[Joe]

Have a nice breakfast, cup of coffee, go in the car. They rolled the window down. A little church starts at 8. We leave at 9. So my brother and I are sitting in the back seat, and I turned to Tony and I said. I said, robert. Robert just taught me a new word. My brother goes, oh, what is it? And I said, it's amazing. This is apparently a really good word. And my brother goes, what does it mean? I said, I have no idea, because I didn't know. And I said, so when dad comes out to the car, why don't you call him a. My brother goes, okay, great. I remember the next Bravo foxtrot move right there is what that is.

[Doug]

That's a big brother, little brother situation.

[Joe]

I remember the next part, like, in slow motion. My dad opens the door to the house, comes out. He gets, like, halfway to the car. And I don't know why some, you know, ogos talk about your spidey sense. Also. My spidey sense goes off. And I'm like, this might not be the good idea that I thought it was. So I turned to my brother, and I go, don't say it. Don't, don't. Don't say it. And my brother just keeps looking straight ahead. My dad slowly opens up the front door.

[Doug]

Abort. Abort.

[Joe]

Sticks his head in as he starts to get in the car. And my brother goes, dad. My dad turns back to the two of us, goes, yeah. My brother just looks straight at him and goes, you're a. And my dad just nods his head, slowly nods his head, pulls his head back out of the car, closes the front door, opens the back door, grabs me by the back of the neck, is dragging me into the house while I'm like, I didn't say anything. And I got my mouth washed out with soap because my brother called my dad.

[Doug]

Now we know where the trend started.

[Joe]

I remember dropping an F bomb.

[Doug]

And Lissa tells this story better than.

[Joe]

I do, but some road rage incident of some kind, I think.

[Doug]

And I don't remember which kid it was.

[Joe]

It might have been William. William probably would be the one that would say this. I think he said something to the effect of, like, after I got done in my diatribe, of all the ways you can use the F word in one sentence, like, da, da, da, da. William goes, that word sounds fun. I want to use it now. Or I can't wait to use it now, you know, or something like that. You guys have probably heard this, but this is pretty good. I don't say the word sucks like this sucks. I don't because that was a very bad word in the 80s and look, I'm sorry to say it now.

[Doug]

This is supposed to be a clean show. I'm bringing this filth into it. That was a very bad word in the 80s. If you said that word in the 80s.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

It was like, well, good luck with.

[Joe]

Drugs and life in prison. My dad took us to see the first Karate Kid at the movie theater and they said sucks in it.

[Dr. Erica Rascher]

And right when I heard it, I looked at my dad and I go, what kind of trash you bringing us to?

[Joe]

What kind of trash? Yeah. And now we throw around that word. Oh, sucks is easy.

[Doug]

Yeah.