Love It or Leave It: Financial Edition (SB1803)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Love It or Leave It: Financial Edition"

The Stacking Benjamins Show (SB1803)
February 13, 2026
Host: Joe Saul-Sehy with OG, Paula Pant, Jesse Kramer, and Doug

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Overview

To kick off Valentine’s Day weekend with their signature blend of fun and function, the Stacking Benjamins crew tackles big financial concepts in a “Love It or Leave It” roundtable. Each panelist must respond to provocative personal finance statements—either loving them, leaving them, or sharing nuanced takes. The aim: spotlight the emotional-versus-logical divide in money decisions, challenge popular tropes, and have a few laughs along the way. The show also includes playful competition through their ongoing trivia battle and listener interaction via live YouTube chat.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Emotional Decisions in Paying Off Low-Interest Mortgages

Prompt: "Paying off a low-interest mortgage early is an emotional decision pretending to be a financial one. Love it or leave it?"

• Paula Pant: Loves it. Points out how most decisions to pay off low-interest mortgages are rooted in emotion—security and peace of mind—especially where income is unstable (entrepreneurs vs. tenured professors). Notes that emotional, non-mathematical decisions are sometimes justified for individual peace of mind. (07:57)

  “It is an emotional decision. Although there's nuance.” (08:18, Paula)

• Jesse Kramer: Loves it, too; stresses that the spreadsheet might not always align with personal comfort but feeling good is a value in itself. (09:07)
• OG: Leaves it. Argues that all debt—even “good debt”—imposes ongoing pressure and risk. The goal should be to remove those obligations, not just stick to math. (10:06)

  “Debt is awful. Even good debt sucks. It just sucks less.” (10:13, OG)

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2. FIRE Movement: Financial Independence vs. Retiring Early

Prompt: "Most people chasing FIRE don’t want to retire early—they just hate their jobs. Love it or leave it?"

• Jesse Kramer, Paula Pant, OG, & Joe: All love it. They note that many pursuing FIRE actually want flexibility for a meaningful career change or sabbatical, not a life of no work. FIRE is more about “financial independence” than actually “retiring early.” (12:14–15:51)

  “They want a well-funded career change...retirement in their definition is not the cessation of income.” (13:06, Paula)

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3. Lifestyle Inflation: Moral Failure or Natural Progression?

Prompt: "Lifestyle inflation isn’t a moral failure—it’s the point of making more money. Love it or leave it?"

• OG: Leaves the moral judgment at the door—do what aligns with your values and don’t feel the need to justify it. (17:53)

  “You don't owe anybody an explanation for how you spend your money other than the people that are immediately impacted.” (19:48, OG)

• Paula Pant: Leaves it. It’s not a moral failing NOT to inflate your lifestyle either. Frugality is a choice, and so is spending—both can be correct. (22:05)
• Jesse Kramer: Leaves it. Some inflation is okay, but letting lifestyle rise lockstep with income is a problem financially—even if not morally. (23:45–24:36)

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4. Real Estate: Passive Income or Not?

Prompt: "Real estate is only passive income if you ignore the stress, time, and risk. Love it or leave it?"

• Paula Pant: Leaves it. The real issue is with defining “passive income” as “free money.” Real estate earns “passive” status for tax purposes, but not as slang for effortless income. (36:37–38:06)
• Jesse Kramer: Loves it. Real estate, especially hands-on, is much more active than diversified investing. “Passive” is a misnomer except for very hands-off investors. (38:12–39:20)
• OG: Sides with Paula, leans toward leave it. All investing requires attention, but the amount varies. It’s about building the right systems. (39:26–41:43)

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5. The (Now) 4.7% or 5.25% Withdrawal Rule: Rule or Blanket?

Prompt: “The 5.25% rule is less of a rule and more of a financial security blanket. Love it or leave it?”

• Jesse Kramer: Loves it. These rules are ultra-conservative starting points. Reality is more flexible and needs situation-specific analysis. (42:18–43:35)

  “It is that financial security blanket that makes you say, ‘Well, at least I know I’m skewing so far conservative…’” (42:42, Jesse)

• OG: Agrees it's a security blanket. The rule gives peace of mind, but real markets and retirements are rarely average. Don't underspend due to rules meant for worst-case scenarios. (43:55–45:31)
• Paula Pant: Also in the “security blanket” camp. Notes that mandatory foundation spend rates are actually higher (5%)—real-life outcomes can be significantly better than rules suggest. (45:38–47:41)

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6. Do Budgeting Apps Actually Help?

Prompt: “Budgeting apps don’t fix spending problems; they just document them in prettier colors. Love it or leave it?”

• OG: Leaves it. If you measure it, you notice inefficiencies and are naturally prompted to change. Seeing spend pain points (like DoorDash) inspires real action. (49:20–50:57)
• Paula Pant: Leaves it. Budgeting is like calorie-counting: too tedious long-term, but powerful in short sprints as a diagnostic tool. (51:36–52:33)

  “It's carrying a food scale and eating everything out of a measuring cup. It's not realistic for the long term...but doing it in a sprint will give you information. And you can't help but change your behavior once you have that information.” (51:36, Paula)

• Jesse Kramer: Leaves it. Measuring spending inevitably leads to managing it (“What gets measured changes”). (52:56–54:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• OG (on debt): “Debt is awful. Even good debt sucks. It just sucks less.” (10:13)
• Jesse (on budgeting): “That which gets measured gets managed.” (53:50)
• Paula (on budgeting): “I've often thought of budgeting as the calorie counting of personal finance.” (51:36)
• Paula (on career changes): “You want a well-funded career transition…pay off your mortgage first.” (13:32)
• Joe (on withdrawal rules): “You get to 82 and you live a normal ... life and you got money left and you left some life on the table.” (45:31)
• OG (on lifestyle inflation): “You are the only arbiter of your own value system.” (19:54)

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Fun & Trivia: The Panel's Competition

• [25:13] OG triggers a “margin call” against Jesse in a winner-takes-points trivia round.
• [34:52] OG wins the trivia, keeping his commanding lead with the correct answer on how many people plan to stay home for Valentine’s Day (46%).
• Humorous banter about romantic plans, Valentine’s Day, and the relative desirability of Toledo and dermatologists’ houses runs throughout the episode.

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Memorable Segments & Timestamps

• Start of “Love It or Leave It” segment: (07:25)
• Paying off low-interest mortgages: (07:25–11:45)
• FIRE Movement motivations: (12:14–16:43)
• Lifestyle inflation discussion: (17:53–24:36)
• Trivia battle and “margin call”: (25:13–35:36)
• Real estate as passive income: (36:37–41:43)
• Withdrawal rate rules: (42:18–48:38)
• Budgeting apps debate: (49:20–54:44)

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Tone and Closing

The show maintains its breezy, banter-filled, yet smart tone. Financial topics are explored with humor, humility, and a keen awareness that money decisions are personal, values-driven, and often more emotional than “experts” let on.

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Takeaways

• Most big financial decisions blend emotion and reason—and that's okay.
• FIRE is as much about freedom and meaning as money.
• Lifestyle inflation (or not) is only right or wrong if you deviate from your own values.
• So-called “rules” (mortgage, withdrawal, budgeting) are only helpful if they fit you.
• Measuring (but not obsessing over) your money changes behavior for the better.

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For more discussion or to share your own “Love It or Leave It” takes, check out the Stacking Benjamins Facebook group.

Transcript

[Paula Pant]

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[OG]

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[Paula Pant]

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[Jesse Kramer]

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[Paula Pant]

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[OG]

We heard you.

[Doug]

Nine years of bring back the snack.

[OG]

Wrap and you've won. But maybe you should have asked for more. Say hello to the Hot honey snack wrap. Now you've really won. Go to McDonald's and get it while you can.

[Paula Pant]

I oughta slug you. I've been kissed by a dog.

[Joe Salci]

I have dog germs.

[Paula Pant]

Get hot water.

[OG]

Get some disinfectant.

[Paula Pant]

Get some iodine.

[Doug]

Ah. Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and to kick off Valentine's Day weekend, we thought we'd get all romantic with some financial ideas. Or not. That's right. Today we're asking our Friday panelists some concepts. And asking. Love it or leave it. From investments to insurance and estate planning, to taxes and to that high school crush you're still following on Insta, we'll cover it all. But that's not all. We're halfway through Q1, and OG's staked a big lead in this year's trivia challenge. Will he get margin? Called. And now a guy who, on Valentine's Day weekend, finds nothing more romantic romantic than lighting some candles, protecting his identity, and canceling subscriptions. It's Joe Salci.

[Joe Salci]

Oh, your poor wife. Does this sound romantic? I think that sounds very romantic. Hey, everybody. Happy Friday. Welcome back to the Stacky Benjamin Show. It is Valentine's Day. Love is in the air, and I love hanging out with all of our people on YouTube. That is clearly pandering, but also ready to have some fun. Let's say hello, by the way, to the guy who's always a ton of fun, Mr. Announcer Man. Doug, how are you, buddy?

[Doug]

Feeling like a barrel of laughs today, Joe?

[Joe Salci]

Absolutely. The guy who also is a barrel of laughs. Across the card table from me, Mr. OG is here. How are you?

[OG]

I thought you were saying a ton of fun, as in, like, metric weight.

[Joe Salci]

Oh, no, we wouldn't do. We wouldn't do that.

[Doug]

£300. Heavenly Joe.

[Joe Salci]

Not live. Anyway, yes, might do it behind the scenes, but not like the Dan Patrick Show.

[OG]

And you Call in and go, 5, 8, 2, 75. And they're like, whoa.

[Joe Salci]

D. Yeah, it's a good day. Oh, gee. You got any big plans for Valentine's Day weekend?

[OG]

Oh, I am probably going to do something romantic, obviously. And it's a big secret because I don't want anyone to know what it is, so I would hate to publicize it today on the show.

[Jesse Kramer]

Well played.

[Joe Salci]

Very well played. And another guy who is. What day is today?

[OG]

No, what day is it?

[Joe Salci]

Today's the 13th. Oh, yes. And Valentine's Day is the 14th, unfortunately.

[OG]

Tomorrow. Yeah.

[Joe Salci]

Yes.

[OG]

I want to make sure everybody knew. Okay. We got all day today and tomorrow to get this surprise packaged together.

[Joe Salci]

And a guy who thinks that reading mutual fund prospectuses is probably the most romantic thing he and Mrs. Kramer could do. Jesse Kramer's here. How are you, man? Happy Valentine's Day weekend.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah. Mutual fund. L O V E X. Love X. It's an alternatives fund. Buy some for your partner. She will or he will really appreciate it, especially if they hold it for a long timeline. That's not financial advice, though, because this is not. This is not that kind of show. What's going on, Joe?

[Joe Salci]

Is it really a fun with that ticker symbol, by the way, or do you just.

[Jesse Kramer]

I have no idea.

[Joe Salci]

Make that up.

[Jesse Kramer]

Let's look it up.

[OG]

It's not.

[Joe Salci]

Well, because I think, like, you know, Southwest Airlines, you know, ticker symbol. Luv.

[Jesse Kramer]

Exactly. We've got some close ones out there, but I don't think that mutual fund is taken. We might have to make it here on the show.

[Joe Salci]

Right. And the woman who says that her mutual fund is taken. I have no. No idea what that means. Paula Pan is here.

[Paula Pant]

Well, I will be spending Valentine's Day flying to Toledo, Ohio.

[Joe Salci]

Oh, you're in love with Toledo.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

Or, you know, Ohio and Michigan went to war over Toledo and Ohio won.

[Joe Salci]

Yeah.

[OG]

Which is not exactly how it worked, but okay.

[Doug]

Beg to differ.

[OG]

Have you been to Toledo? I think it was more like. Seriously, the war was for different reasons. You think it was about who got to control Toledo? It was about who had to have Toledo.

[Joe Salci]

Toledo. Send your hate mail to.

[OG]

I love Toledo. They have a great golf course, Sylvania. And my bestest cousin lives there.

[Paula Pant]

Ah.

[Joe Salci]

Did you see what Michigan got in exchange for Toledo?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, you guys got the Upper Peninsula.

[Joe Salci]

Upper Peninsula.

[Paula Pant]

So, yeah, well, Ohio didn't want that.

[Doug]

Why would you want one of the greatest troves of natural resources in the.

[Paula Pant]

Continental U.S. oh, because it's not connected to Ohio.

[OG]

It's not connected to Michigan either. It's connected to Wisconsin.

[Joe Salci]

Wisconsin should be angry right now. Wait, what? We missed out on all that fun.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Joe Salci]

Well, it sounds like a romantic trip, Paula.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, I'm, I'm crashing, you know the debt free guys, John and David. Yes, I'm crashing their Valentine's Day.

[Joe Salci]

Yeah, just making sure it's all romantic in Toledo. Paul is a mudhead at heart. Do you know what the Mud Hens are? Do you know? That's the Toledo baseball team.

[Jesse Kramer]

Oh, cool.

[Joe Salci]

Mud Hens. What a great name. What's the Rochester baseball team there, Jesse.

[Jesse Kramer]

Over the Red Wings.

[Doug]

The Red Wings.

[Joe Salci]

Hey, there you go. There's a name. Well, we've got a great show today, everybody. Because on today's show, you know, I was thinking, what could be more romantic than asking yourself some big questions? You know, you think about Valentine's Day and you think it's a great time to fall in love with your strategy. But it's also a good time. Like if you're really not in love with it, you should probably break up with it the day before Valentine's Day. You should get rid of it. So I'm going to ask you this day before Valentine's Day some questions. Do you love it or are you gonna leave it? We're gonna ask all those on today's show. First, we got a couple sponsors who keep us keeping on. So, Paula, you know what I'm about to say. The Stacky Benjamin show is always free.

[Paula Pant]

And worth every penny.

[Joe Salci]

There it is. We're gonna hear from them. And then, Paula, Jesse and og, we're gonna ask them these big financial concepts. You're gonna love them or you going to leave them? All right, Paula, let's start with you. You ready?

[Paula Pant]

I'm ready. I've been training all week.

[Joe Salci]

Here we go. Salacious Comment number 1. Paying off a low interest mortgage early, right? We see people do this sometimes. Our good friend Andy Hill did it right, had a low interest rate mortgage. We see people say, you know, I just didn't want that loan anymore. Paying off a low interest mortgage early is an emotional decision. Pretending to be a financial one. Paula, do you love that statement? Are you leaving that statement?

[Paula Pant]

Man, you know, it's tough because I really want to say it depends on who you are, right? Are you a tenured professor or are you an entrepreneur who's about to take a big risk starting a business? But if I have to choose one or the other, I'm going to say I love the statement.

[Joe Salci]

Oh, you're keeping that One around. So it is an emotional decision.

[Paula Pant]

Yes, yes. I would say if I must choose a black and white yes or no. Love or leave. I would say yes, it is an emotional decision. Although there's nuance.

[Joe Salci]

Well, yeah. You said there's a difference between if you're a tenured professor or if you're an entrepreneur. Why the difference between those two specific people?

[Paula Pant]

Because of income stability. The tenured professor has income stability. The entrepreneur's income could be anywhere between. It could be a negative number, or it could be a tiny positive number, or it could be a very big positive number. So there's, there's a tremendous amount of volatility in income that the entrepreneur has. And so it might be a mathematical decision to de. Risk and. Or by. By virtue of paying off all debt, including low interest debt.

[Joe Salci]

They're more worried about cash flow.

[Paula Pant]

Right, right, Exactly.

[Joe Salci]

Yeah. Jesse.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I, I love the statement. I think the operative word that stood out to me was, I think pretend. You said that. I think the word pretend was in the pretending show.

[OG]

Pretending.

[Jesse Kramer]

Because I think of it as, it's just an emotional decision. And that's okay. It doesn't have to be emotional pretending to be financial. Although I'm sure some people do think of it that way. The way I, I usually frame it is that it's just an emotional decision. But sometimes an emotional decision is the right decision for someone to make, especially if they're aware of the financial consequences of that decision. And they say, like, yeah, I, I understand that a spreadsheet might not tell me that this particular mortgage payoff decision is quote, unquote, right. But it's going to make me feel way, way, way better. And that has some kind of intangible value that I, I really value. And that's the decision I'm going to make. So whether it's just emotional or emotional pretending to be financial, I still love the statement as stated.

[Joe Salci]

You've seen this, I would think, in your practice, OG where the emotional decision is the right one.

[OG]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know that this one is an emotional decision. I think this is exactly opposite.

[Joe Salci]

So you're going to leave it all?

[OG]

Debt is awful. Even good debt sucks. It just sucks less. And anytime that you are taking a long time to pay for something that you've already largely consumed, it's a bad idea. And it just beholdens you. Kind of like what Paul was saying in terms of risk. It beholdens you to keep producing an output just to maintain. I mean, just think if your mortgage is it's not unheard of to have a $4,000 mortgage these days, right? So if you had $4,000 mortgage, you gotta make 70 grand a year in most places just to pay your frigging house payment. You know, like, think about the stress and everything that goes into it. You know, people say, well, it's just a mathematical decision. It's not just a mathematical decision. It can't just be about math. Because if math was it, then why don't we all lever our brokerage accounts six to one because mathematically that's the right thing to do. Why do you even have a mortgage that's halfway paid off? Why don't every time you get some equity in your house, why don't you go borrow more? Like, oh, Zillow says my house is up 100k, I should go get another HELOC for another a hundred K and do something with it? Because it's not just about the math. How many times I got the letter the other day in the bank, like, congratulations, you're qualified for a hundred thousand dollars loan. Like, all right, that's at 8%, that's 7%. Whatever the number is, I should take that. Well, because it's not just the math. Piece of interest versus investing.

[Joe Salci]

Wow. Two love it and a leave it to begin the day. Love this. Let's go on to question number two. Jesse, we're going to put you in the hot seat this one. Let's talk about the fire movement. Jesse, let's get those people angry for a moment here. On Valentine's Day weekend, most people chasing the fire movement, they don't actually want to retire early. They just hate their jobs. Do you love it or do you leave it?

[Jesse Kramer]

Oh, Joe, thanks for the setup, man. This is good. I want to hear your answer. Joe, why don't you go first? No, I, I would need a poll, but I'll say love it. I'll say love it again without polling a thousand people to hear their answer. Just from enough of the stories that I've heard, I do think that most people out there have something in their life that if they were doing that thing full time, like, compassionately, they probably wouldn't care about retiring early. They might still care about reaching financial independence. And that's why I think more and more you're hearing people kind of split up the fi from the re financial independence from the retire early. But when it comes to people who are like, yeah, I'm going to retire by 44, a lot of times it's like, I'm burnt Out by my job. I cannot do this forever. I'm going to save a ton and retire early. So I will love your statement, Joe.

[Paula Pant]

Paula, I agree, actually. Anecdotally I have heard a lot of people say essentially that they want a well funded career change. So, you know, retirement in their definition is not the cessation of income. Retirement is maybe a sabbatical for six months or a year or heck, maybe year and a half, two years even.

[Joe Salci]

Right.

[Paula Pant]

But a timed sabbatical followed by a well funded career transition. Maybe they have spent their entire career being a, you know, a software engineer, but they really want to be a middle school basketball coach. Right.

[Doug]

That is an oddly specific example you just chose. I need to hear the backstory on this.

[Paula Pant]

Well, let's see. You know, you know that if you make that type of career transition, there are going to be some income ramifications to that. And so you want to know that before you become a middle school basketball coach, you've got your house paid off, you've got your retirement totally funded, you've got your 529 plans for your kids totally filled. Like you want to know that that foundation is taken care of and then you make the career transition. So anecdotally, I've heard a lot of people in the fire movement talk about that as their, you know, their motivations. So I will say love it.

[Joe Salci]

Two Love it. Oh gee, we're making this unanimous.

[OG]

I have never run into a scenario, I think, much like my two esteemed colleagues here, where someone who retired early didn't transition to something else that provided fulfillment. My guess is that's some offshoot of I like this thing less than I might like the other thing, but I'm taking the responsible approach and not going to give up my software job for a middle school basketball job. Not that there's anything wrong with being a middle school basketball coach or middle school teacher, but my training is in this thing and I want to make money and whatever, provide for my family in the manner I see fit and then I can transition to this thing that I really have some. That's funny.

[Joe Salci]

Yeah, that's good radio right there. Comment on what's going on on YouTub. Shane hanging out with us said, I think it's effort retire.

[OG]

I didn't know what to say because I, I don't see stars. I see the real word. And I was like, joe, no like it when OG swear. So I was, yeah, I was like, I better not say that anyway. So I'm going to agree with everybody on this One, this is just mass. You know, retirement early is masquerading as I hate my job.

[Joe Salci]

Well, and Jesse, I'm going to be a fourth in that one. Since you asked my opinion. I wasn't going to give my opinion.

[Jesse Kramer]

Brave.

[Joe Salci]

But yeah, now that everybody else has agreed, I'll go ahead.

[OG]

I'm just gonna pick the opposite from now on. Just add some fire conversation.

[Paula Pant]

And I want to emphasize that like these lower paying new jobs, the reason people are making such sacrifices to go into them is because for many people that's so much more fulfilling and not just personally fulfilling, but like purposeful. You know, purposeful in a deep, meaningful way. Like you find that you have a calling to do something, to be a middle school basketball coach, to be a preschool teacher, to do something, to be a stand up comedian. Right. To do something that is likely to be lower paid. But it's your calling. So you don't want to like not.

[OG]

Follow it, not honor that.

[Paula Pant]

You just want to like pay off your mortgage first.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Jesse Kramer]

Is that how you ended up here, Doug? I mean, is this your calling?

[Doug]

100%. Yeah, 100%. And I get to be a stand up comedian.

[Jesse Kramer]

What about like the higher paid versus lower paid?

[OG]

And the $20,000 a month contract certainly doesn't hurt. But wait, you guys are getting paid? That's what Paul was thinking right now.

[Joe Salci]

My spouse Cheryl and I met as middle school track coaches and if I, if it paid better, man, I'd love that job. It was so great being a part of.

[OG]

Well, you liked it so much, Joe, that you tried to go back to it for a second, for a third career or whatever, right? Second career. That was like an interim stop of like, I like this so much that I used to do it, now I'm going to try to do it again.

[Joe Salci]

Yeah, my goal was definitely not retire early. To Jesse's point, it was go find the thing. Go back to the thing that really lit me up. Speaking of light you up. Oh gee, it's your turn in the hot seat. Let's start with you on this one. Lifestyle inflation isn't a moral, isn't a moral failure. That's why I'm asking you this. 1. Lifestyle Inflation is not a moral failure. It's the entire point of making more money. That's why you make more money, is so you can inflate the lifestyle. Love it or leave it.

[OG]

So I'll answer this by way of story time by og. My middle kid was debating back and forth about a decision that he was trying to make around Some athletics, some high school athletics. As a matter of fact, he was kind of getting pulled in two different directions. He had. He had made his mind up, but he was very stressed about communicating that idea. He felt that other people were going to be maybe judgy a little bit on it, you know, if he did one sport and not another or not both. And so he had crafted this, for lack of a better term, a sales pitch to the coach, right? Like, hey, here's what I'm gonna. But it's because of this and this and this. And, you know, I'm like, listen, you don't owe anybody an explanation for the decisions you make. You get to do what you want to do without having an explanation for that. I want to do this period, because once you start adding the. But the stuff with the thing, and I got. Now you give an opening for other people to challenge your decision making or to maybe try to give you a little grief about it or. Or maybe try to meet you halfway, and you've already decided, my heart's not in this thing. And so when I think about lifestyle inflation, I think about it in the context of, you don't owe anybody an explanation for how you spend your money other than the people that are immediately impacted by that decision. If you want to have a big house and a $10,000 mortgage and all that stuff that goes with it, okay, cool. Maybe that's not a fit for you. Maybe that's not a fit for your family and how you're doing things, but if it doesn't affect you, I think you just got to stay out of it. Just because you like to go to a nice steak dinner and it's a bunch of money, and you go, I would never spend that kind of money. That's okay. You have the things that are important to you. Other people have the things that are important to them.

[Joe Salci]

It sounds like this is couched in, though, that it goes along with your values, that the spending still goes along with your values.

[OG]

Well, I mean, sure, but you're the only arbiter of your own value system. So if you want to lie to yourself, you can, I suppose. But getting what you want and having an ever evolving list of stuff that you're striving for is perfectly fine. And just because it's a thing that I want to do doesn't make it a thing that's bad for you or good for me or whatever the case would be. And I think we do a disservice to people who are striving for things that are beyond our reach and basically say, well, that's because they're, you know, like we kind of like, you know, shame them a little bit. Like, oh, well, that's just ludicrous. You know, I don't understand why you'd.

[Jesse Kramer]

Ever want to do that.

[OG]

Oh, okay. You don't have to understand it. That's how Jesse wants to spend his money is racing jet skis across the lake and he's got a souped up jet ski that was like $70,000. Okay, cool. Good for him. You know what I mean? So, yeah, man, make more money and spend it.

[Joe Salci]

But it is interesting, Paul. I mean, even as OG starts, I'm going to make up a phrase. You can afford anything, just not everything. Like I just made that up on the spot. It still does seem like there's some value involved there. You love or leave that statement.

[Paula Pant]

Can you repeat what the statement is? Like the, the wording of this?

[OG]

Paula got lost in my story hour. She's like, she fell asleep, got popcorn, came back, was still going on.

[Doug]

I kind of got dizzy when I heard you were the arbiter of your own values.

[Paula Pant]

Own values.

[Doug]

Whoa.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, I actually really liked that phrase.

[Doug]

Am I getting college credit for this course?

[Jesse Kramer]

I just liked how OG's it was. You owe nobody an explanation. Now let me explain that for the next 10 minutes.

[OG]

Is that how it went down? I don't really remember that. We had the court reporter to read it back to us just to be sure. But let me explain what not explaining things means, Paul.

[Joe Salci]

I don't know that I'm going to get the words exactly right. But the gist of it is lifestyle inflation isn't a moral failure. Like often in financial shows, we talk about the fact that it's, you know, cool to be more frugal. It's the whole point. Why make more money if you're not going to inflate your lifestyle?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, leave it, leave it, leave it. Yeah, yeah. Lifestyle inflation is an option, but it's not the only option. I totally agree with og. It's an option that nobody else ought to be judgy about. You are free to choose to inflate your lifestyle. And if that's what you want to do, cool, that's what you can do. But you can also, you look at Warren Buffett, he's worth $150 billion. He still lives in a. He lives in the type of upper middle class house in Omaha, Nebraska that you would expect like a well paid local dentist or dermatologist or somebody to live in he lives in a nice house by upper middle class professional standards, but he does not live in a billionaire house.

[OG]

You know, I mean he does have a golf stream, so.

[Paula Pant]

Well, yeah, but that's, that's not.

[OG]

Donates billions of dollars a year. It's just different. He's inflating different sections of his lifestyle maybe is what you're talking about here. He's, he's choosing what he's inflating based on.

[Doug]

You know, there's like three jokes here. Come on.

[Joe Salci]

But again, Doug, I want to point to one which is Paula being widely specific, like weirdly specific. A well paid dermatologist. Yeah, like what's going on with, you know, I bet a well paid dermatologist lives in that house. Have you ever thought that driving by.

[OG]

Any house, not a poorly paid one, just a well paid one.

[Joe Salci]

A moderately paid dermatologist with their own.

[Doug]

Line of skin care products in the lobby.

[Joe Salci]

I got no, no idea. Jesse Kramer, Love it or leave it.

[Jesse Kramer]

Leave it, leave it. My mind went to. Well, first off, yeah, I thought that was pretty funny too. Like definitely not an oncologist. Dermatologist only. Dermatologist only.

[Joe Salci]

They would be caught dead in that house.

[Doug]

Yeah, let's not get crazy.

[Jesse Kramer]

Well, I, you can't have your lifestyle inflation kind of go stride for stride with your income. Like I think that is a, whether it's a moral failing or not, I don't know. And I suppose that's maybe that's where Og's answer was, that focus on kind of that moral word in the statement. But strictly from a financial point of view, I mean, yes, I think the point is hopefully we want to, maybe our income does increase over time, but if our lifestyle matches it stride for stride, we're going to be in some sort of trouble, most likely. So there's nothing wrong with having some lifestyle inflation. It just can't be the same magnitude as your income inflation.

[Joe Salci]

I do remember Dave Ramsey example one time saying, you know, somebody pulls up next to you in a Lamborghini and you're like, oh, look at them. Or you go think, well, I can drive a Lamborghini. And he's like, you've no idea how much money they make. Like, you have no idea if that Lamborghini is 1,1000th their income or if they're spending their entire paycheck, which the, you know, the judgment of that piece is we do get judgy sometimes. All right. It is the halfway point of today's show. I've got some more salacious ones in the Second half of this. I've got one. I can't wait to ask Paula. I've got an exciting one for Jesse. I asked my exciting one to OG earlier, but I do have one for him too.

[OG]

So very blah blah one for me.

[Joe Salci]

Okay, Blah blah, blah blah. At that way point we transition into our year long competition between you three fine people. And what's interesting is we're now halfway through February and nobody has yet margin called anybody. And you know what? The pressure to do so rises because OG while you were gone last week, Sarah Katherine Gutierrez scored not one point for team OG she scored two points.

[OG]

Oh really?

[Joe Salci]

For team OG how did that happen?

[OG]

How did you get.

[Joe Salci]

We had a game show competition as well and she won the game show and won the trivia competition. So Doug, that means the score at this juncture is.

[Doug]

Yeah, it's a little. It's either unsettling or it's comforting depending on what your worldview is. OG has reclaimed what he feels is his God given right to be at the top of the trivia pile. Jesse is working hard to prove that he was just a flash in the pan and Paula is making sure that the universe is stable and remains in last place. That's OG with four points, a commanding three point lead over Jesse and a four point lead over Paula because she has big fat donut in her column.

[Joe Salci]

Four one, donuts are yummy. Zero.

[Doug]

Yep.

[Joe Salci]

And once again, here's the rules. Anybody can say margin call at any time. And when you say margin call, you use your margin call for the first quarter of the year. We got about what, six weeks left to margin call, people. And oh, we have a special episode coming. We only have five weeks left to use your margin call after this week. So if any of our contestants say margin call, then they tell us who their margin calling. That person either has to win that week's competition or they lose a point. But if they do win, whoever said margin call, they lose a point and of course they lose their margin call for the first quarter. So those are the rules. We know what's at stake this week. And Doug, you've got our Valentine's Day weekend trivia.

[Doug]

Well, I sure do, Joe. Speaking of Valentine's Day stackers.

[Joe Salci]

Wait a minute.

[Jesse Kramer]

Oh geez.

[Joe Salci]

Wait a minute.

[Doug]

We have our first margin call. And was that Jesse Kramer?

[OG]

No, it was me.

[Doug]

It was OG.

[OG]

Oh, I can only do Jesse. Right, Because Paula doesn't have.

[Joe Salci]

Paula doesn't have a point. Yeah, how about that?

[Doug]

Here we go, ladies and gentlemen, here we go.

[OG]

So just hold on, let me get the rules again. So Jesse has to win the thing.

[Joe Salci]

Today, and if he doesn't, he loses his point. If he does win, then you lose a point.

[OG]

Gotcha.

[Joe Salci]

And he gains his point, as usual.

[OG]

Understood. So the worst outcome for me is I go to three. The best outcome from him is he goes to two.

[Joe Salci]

That's right. It could be three to two.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. So it'll either be three to two or it'll be five to zero, zero.

[OG]

Or four to zero and one. Because, Paula, you could still win.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Salci]

Paula, in her own example, just assumed that she's losing.

[Paula Pant]

I hadn't considered that.

[OG]

Fair.

[Joe Salci]

Doug, continue.

[Doug]

Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and you're about to experience the smooth sounds of my trivia question. That's right, folks. Wrap those arms around your listening device and hold it tight, because it's time for a scorching hot piece of tantalizing trivia. Right from my mouth to yours, baby. Here's today's curiously captivating question. Well, everyone else spends a lot of money on Valentine's Day. Savings.com just completed a survey asking what percentage of Americans want to do the hottest thing possible this year and just stay home? You got it, baby. Just you, me, and the remote control to your heart. Don't take your clothes off all at once. I mean, you gotta make me work for it a little bit. Am I right?

[Joe Salci]

I don't even want the visual.

[Doug]

I'll be back right after I figure out how to work the record player down here so I can fire up these old Luther Vandross albums.

[Joe Salci]

Just a scenario I don't even want to imagine. So let's get into it. OG you are going first.

[OG]

Wouldn't Mr. Margin call go first in this?

[Joe Salci]

Mr. Margin call does not go first. He just has to win in his current position.

[OG]

What was the question? What percent of people actually just want to stay home for Valentine's Day this.

[Joe Salci]

Year, the Savings.com did a survey and a surprising number of people said, I'm just going to be frugal and stay home.

[OG]

Did you add the word surprising based on your value judgment of the number.

[Joe Salci]

Or surprisingly low, surprisingly high. Surprisingly what?

[OG]

You would think the article itself said a surprising number or are you ad libbing?

[Joe Salci]

No idea.

[Doug]

He ad libbed.

[OG]

He ad libbed, okay? Because he knows the answer. So for him to have that little Freudian, like a surprising number, like, ooh, what makes the number surprising? I am going to say that the number of people that want to stay Home this Valentine's Day. Is my current age 39%.

[Joe Salci]

Perfect. Jesse Kramer, he goes with 39%. People staying home. What are you thinking? You staying home?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I think we are. Yeah. I feel like it's going to be higher than that, but I don't know.

[Joe Salci]

I just.

[OG]

It is a surprising number, right?

[Jesse Kramer]

It is. It is. I'm going to go over 50%. I'm going to go 62%.

[Joe Salci]

62%. Paula. We've got 39 and 62.

[Paula Pant]

You know, consumer confidence is generally low. People are a little bit nervous about the economy. People are nervous about jobs. So I think people are going to be more cautious this year. So I am going to go with 62.1.

[Doug]

62. I had to build a damn spreadsheet with, like formulas in it just because of you jokers who pull that crap on me.

[Joe Salci]

We've got 39, 62, and 62.1. Is Jesse going back to zero or is the score tightening or crazy of crazies? Is Paula actually going to get on the board? We'll find out. And that means Paula would go ahead of Jesse and be in second place. First place among the second place people was what I should have said. I think we'll be back to find out. All right, Paula, you were the last to guess and you put your brain to work this time. Betted against your gut. I'm sure.

[Paula Pant]

I, I took the over at 62.1. The only reason that I think that I have a chance is because in this episode, I predicted that I would not win. And so if there were ever a time for me to win, it would be immediately after predicting that I wouldn't.

[Joe Salci]

It's got to start sometime. Got to. Why not now? Oh, gee. You were the first guesser at 39. You heard the 61 and the 61.1.

[OG]

Yeah, I just don't think it's over 50. It could be a surprising number and be like 80. That's the. That could be surprising.

[Joe Salci]

Jesse, would it be surprising if you won? I'm.

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm really liking my chances because I think if Paula had gone with the under because she went with the old. There's a little bit of like Schrodinger's cat going on. Once she went with the over, the odds kind of redistributed. And now all of a sudden I've got a really good chance of winning because if she had gone with the under, she would have won.

[Joe Salci]

I would love this to be like the apps when I'm watching a baseball or Football game and we've got like the ESPN ticker down here going. He's a. Paul's got a 36% chance of winning. Like everybody's got their, their number markets.

[OG]

Should we start a like a poly market Ki. Yeah.

[Joe Salci]

That would, that would be on brand as we're doing shows about telling people not to bet. And then you can bet on our, on our trivia.

[OG]

I'm not saying not to bet. Saying might lose your shirt.

[Joe Salci]

All right, who's taking a home? Is Paula getting a point? Did Jesse get margin called? Is OG going back to the beginning? Well, not back to the begin. He'll only be ahead by one. Who's taking this home? Doug.

[Doug]

Hey there, stackers. I'm financial home wrecker and guy you call your trivia Zaddy Joe's mom's neighbor. Doug. Listen, baby, I know this trivia segment is all you've ever wanted, which is great because you're all this trivia master has ever wanted. Between my questions and your answers, we make a perfect pair. So answer me this. Before things get out of control and we have to turn off the lights, according to savings.com how many of us are going to press the frugal romance button and have the most spicy Valentine's Day ever just by staying at home and reviewing our budgets? Well, what I'll tell you is it was 16.1% less than what Paula guessed, 16% less than what Jesse guessed, and just 7% more than what OG guessed because the correct answer is 46%, making OG our sexiest trivia winner.

[OG]

Today was pretty close to my real age. Somebody put that as a quote.

[Joe Salci]

I thought 46 was surprising. I probably Doug shouldn't have said surprising, but 46% of people to me forgot how.

[Doug]

Forgot how observant OG is. He picked that up fast. I was impressed.

[Joe Salci]

But now this is.

[OG]

I thought about just saying 50, but then I thought I get hosed on both ends. Like I somebody would pick 49 and somebody was going to pick 51. And then I was like, all right, so that's out. I have to pick a number that's not 50 just to force. Force everybody's hand. But anyway, so do I get. So do I get Jesse's point also?

[Joe Salci]

You get a point because you want not Jesse's point.

[OG]

Okay.

[Joe Salci]

And Jesse's points are fun.

[Jesse Kramer]

Points are fungible. You got my point.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Doug]

So now we've got a rough situation, you two.

[OG]

Should we just stop this?

[Doug]

Jesse and Paul are declare it. OG has a five point lead on both of you this is exactly how.

[OG]

You guys envisioned this was going to happen when you set up these new rules last year, huh?

[Jesse Kramer]

Exactly.

[OG]

Exactly.

[Joe Salci]

And the score is going to go down is OG48. Not at all what we were what we were thinking. You know what I am thinking, though? I'm thinking we need to get back to Valentine's Day because we've got some, some more salacious comments that we're going to ask you. Love it or leave it around. Let's go back to Paula because, Paula, I want to know what you're thinking about this one. Let's talk real estate. Paula Pant. Love it or leave it. I'll say this. Real estate is only passive income if you ignore, you know, the stress, the time and the risk. Love it or leave it.

[Paula Pant]

Leave it. Because I think that that statement misinterprets what passive income means. And so I'll say two things. Number one is that passive income is not a euphemism for free money. Passive income. And I think probably the better term is residual income. Better only in the sense that like, people don't often think that residual is the euphemism for free money the way they misinterpret the word passive to be. But passive income means you're frontloading the workload. You're front loading the bulk of the workload so that you can get paid later. Oh, a less desirable way to phrase that is you do all the work up front and you get paid years and years and years later for the work that you did in year one. So you could actually think of passive income as delayed payment.

[Joe Salci]

You could have said, though, that you love that statement and given that same answer. Because you could have said I hate the words passive income. Instead, I will replace it with residual income. Well, because I think that makes a bunch of sense.

[Paula Pant]

So the IRS defines rental property income as passive. Like the IRS definition of what rental income is is it's a passive gain, which is why on your tax forms only passive losses can offset those passive gains. You know, active losses cannot. So it is technically passive income in the IRS sense of the word. It's just that people misunderstand what that word means.

[Joe Salci]

Jesse the IRS is using the wrong terminology. Love it or leave it.

[Jesse Kramer]

Love it. Having read the IRC a few times, all 170,000 pages of it, they get a few words wrong.

[Joe Salci]

Yeah.

[Jesse Kramer]

What was the original statement, Joe? Because I do think, I'm trying to think, Paula, you left it. So I do think, I think I loved it. I think I loved it real Estate's.

[Joe Salci]

Only passive income if you ignore, you know, the stress, the time and the risk.

[Jesse Kramer]

Correct. I love that. But I think the words I would use to explain why are going to be kind of similar to Paula's, at least in a way which is. Right. It's, it's a pretty active endeavor. I think, especially when you compare it to certain other investment approaches. There's more activity owning real estate than there is say, owning a portfolio of highly diversified passive ETFs. I think that's relatively hard to argue with. And if you're the one who is doing the maintenance yourself, if you're the one who's sourcing the deal yourself, if you're this one who's interacting with all the tenants yourself, I mean, that is a fairly. It's more work intensive than what I would traditionally call passive investing. So I will love your statement, Joe.

[Joe Salci]

Love it. One for. Love it. One for. Leave it. Oh, gee, you're breaking the tie.

[OG]

Well, I think based on Jesse's description there of activities, I. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't that make the investing then active by definition from an IRS standpoint, if you're sourcing the deals and you're managing the property and you're, you know, running all of it, doesn't that.

[Paula Pant]

Change that the IRS would only consider you to be an active real estate investor if you spend at least, I think the cutoff is approximately 750 hours per year.

[Joe Salci]

So this would be really active flippers.

[OG]

There's some metric that you can flip that switch from the IRS definition of passive to the IRS definition of active.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[OG]

And sometimes that matters, you know, or if your profession is real estate.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. If your profession is real estate and you don't make more money from some alternate profession, or if you spend 750 hours per year or more, or if you Airbnb a property rather than have it on a 12 month lease, there's some allowance for that as well. Per the IRS definition of what is passive versus what is active.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah.

[OG]

I would not call any investing passive in any way, shape or form. In the sense that everything requires some attention. The amount of attention that you are required to give it is somewhat dependent on whatever season you happen to be in during tax season. At the end of the year, your investment portfolio probably takes a little bit more center stage. If you're buying a property or you're flipping it or your renters are out and now you're dealing with cleanup and repair and re renting, you're Going to be a little bit more involved in it at that point in time. But I also think there's a lot of times that you can put stuff on autopilot. And like Paula said, I think when you're thinking of the words active and passive, you think like, I don't have to do anything. And it's like really more about systems. And if you can build the right systems around whatever it is, whatever your investing philosophy is, whether it's all real estate or equities or, you know what, own businesses or whatever, you're just managing the systems at that point. And some people would consider that to be a little more hands off than necessarily in there. So I don't know where that puts me, honestly. I think I'm on Paula's side here. That sound right?

[Joe Salci]

That makes you leave it. So one for love is.

[OG]

I like Paula more than Jesse, so.

[Paula Pant]

I'm gonna go, aww.

[Jesse Kramer]

That's fine. That's fine.

[Joe Salci]

Happy Valentine's Day, Jesse.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, dealt with it before.

[Joe Salci]

Jesse, while we have your attention, let's give you a love it or leave it. You know as well as anyone that this so called 4% rule is now what do we call it? Not quite as sexy. The five and a quarter percent rule, I think is the new one. So the five and a quarter percent rule is less of a rule and more of a financial security blanket. Love it or leave it.

[Jesse Kramer]

Definitely love it. Definitely love it. I'm not as familiar with the kind of under the hood of the five and a quarter rule. I haven't read Bill Bengan's new book about the 4.7% rule yet, which I know is one number that's been tossed around a lot in the last 12 months.

[Joe Salci]

Well, he's the one, by the way. This is five and a quarter, by the way. That optimally could be five and a quarter. But I guess it is the 4.7 rule now.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah.

[Joe Salci]

Is the. Yeah.

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm going to go off the assumption though that he probably came to that 4.7 or five and a quarter with like a similar kind of analysis method that he originally came to the 4% rule with. And I just think if you look at how that number is arrived at and you see all the layers of conservatism that are kind of added up into that number. It is that financial security blanket that makes you say like, well, at least I know I'm skewing so far conservative that it's super unlikely that this backfires against me. And what you're neglecting is all the kind of middle of the road outcomes, let alone the optimistic outcomes that would suggest you could spend more than 4%. So, yeah, it's that security blanket to make people feel good and maybe to start the conversation or to do some back of the napkin math. But once you've done that first step and done that back of the napkin math, it kind of behooves you to dive deeper before you. You really understand how much you can spend in retirement.

[Joe Salci]

And people who are new to all this and have no idea what we're talking about at all, we're talking about the amount you can spend, which Jesse, you just mentioned, and it used to be 4%. So you take the amount of money you've saved up and 4%, that was the safe number. And now in Bill Bingham's new book, he's got it closer to 4.7. Rule or financial security blanket?

[OG]

OG blanket, absolutely. I mean, it's a good starting point. It's a good place to, like Jesse said, back of the envelope. Like, am I somewhat kind of in the ballpark? Maybe, but totally, totally does not take into account if you actually happen to do better than the median. And more specifically, what happens if you go on a tear, like the last 5 years of market performance or 10 years of market performance, and if you have so much excess that you're already spending whatever you want to spend at 4% or 3% or 5%, then it doesn't matter to you. But if your lips are just barely above water and the difference between $2,000 coming out of your portfolio and $3,000 coming out of your portfolio, to some people that's $1,000. To some people, that's a 50% increase in their income. That can make a profound impact, especially if you have a more standard life expectancy of 80 or 82. Whereas if you talk to anybody from a planning standpoint, what do we say? 95, 95, 100, 105. So we're already elongating that the life expectancy number and we're being conservative with the withdrawal number. And you get to 82 and you live a normal standard American life and you got money still left and you left some life on the table. I think it's also good to do the opposite side of that. Like, what's the stress test on this? Not just at 4%, but like, where, like, where do I die? That's basically my life motto. Like, how do I die on this? You know, like, don't do 10. Got it.

[Joe Salci]

Yeah. That's what the lips just Barely above water is the part that gets me because I don't feel like it's, even then, much of a security blanket, Paula.

[Paula Pant]

Security blanket. First of all, I do want to say, as we're talking about 4.7, this sounds like a conversation about the fed funds rate, right? Oh, well, it's between 4.75 to 5.25.

[Joe Salci]

Should we have had like a big hurrah and the markets change when Bill Bangin goes. Four percent's been raised to 4.7, everybody.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, my God. Yeah. There should be like a press conference. The Jerome Powell style press conference.

[Joe Salci]

That's right.

[Paula Pant]

Release it at exactly 2pm on a.

[Joe Salci]

Wednesday, Bill Bengan appears before Congress.

[Paula Pant]

So going back to. Not that I take all of my financial cues from the irs, but I'm thinking about how with foundations, a foundation that has an endowment, the IRS will require 5% of that foundation's money to get spent. And they're doing that because they want to make sure that the money doesn't just sit there forever in perpetuity. But they also don't want to demand a rate that's so high that you're going to spend it down to zero. So there's a requirement of, you know, spending five. And, and they've got all kinds of, like, caveats and bells and whistles. So when I say they require 5% spend, don't take that as don't me, bro.

[OG]

That's what you want to say.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, exactly. Don't me. Because there are lots and lots of caveats associated with it. But that is what they push foundations to do. So it makes sense to me because I remember when I first learned that about mandatory foundation spend, I was like, man, this is back in the 4% days. I was like, man, 5%, you're going to whittle that down to zero. That was back when Bill Bengen was saying 4.2.

[OG]

Turns out the Harvard Foundation's doing okay.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, Exactly. I think 5% is a good starting point. It's designed so that even if you retire on January 1, 2008, you will probably still be okay. And for everybody who doesn't retire on January 1, 2008, you know, it turns out you actually retired January 1, 2021, and you didn't end up facing any sequence of returns risk. You're doing even better.

[Joe Salci]

If somebody, by the way, retired at the beginning of 2021, is there a propensity, you think, to be overconfident or to like, wait for the other shoe to drop? Like, like, what have you Guys seen.

[Paula Pant]

I mean, I think it very much is going to depend on the personality of the individual.

[Joe Salci]

I could see I'd be really easy to be a little overconfident, going, oh, this is way easier than I thought. I could spend a bunch more money. Don't you think so?

[Jesse Kramer]

I think so, yeah. I think so. Sorry for the silence.

[Joe Salci]

Thank you.

[Jesse Kramer]

I think so. I think so. I mean, just from a couple conversations of people who write, you know, they retire with X, they've spent the money they've wanted to spend for the last two or three or five years, and now they have 20% or 30% or 50% more than they had when they originally retired a few years ago. And yeah, it gives them permission and it gives them confidence to loosen up the purse strings a little bit. Whether that tips them over to the other side of now being, like, overconfident and actually like spending too much. I mean, that's a little bit of a different conversation. But I think it, it certainly has to allow them to spend a little bit more.

[Joe Salci]

I do like the approach that our friend Paul Merriman talked about when he was on the show when he said that, you know, during his retirement years, the market goes up, they spend the excess to travel the world, and when it goes down, they just travel the Pacific Northwest where he lives, so that the basic budget stays the same. So he's not getting used to this different lifestyle during the go go years, in case there's a no go one after all. Right, Og, you are gonna bring it home for us. Let's talk about budgets. You're special.

[Doug]

You can answer right now. I think yes.

[Joe Salci]

Leave it, Leave it.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah.

[Joe Salci]

Budgeting apps. Let's talk budgeting apps.

[OG]

Apps, okay?

[Joe Salci]

They don't fix spending problems. They just document them in prettier colors. We gonna love that or are we leaving it?

[OG]

I mean, is this like a personal attack? Like, how do we answer this?

[Joe Salci]

Are you looking at me?

[OG]

Highlights, the inadequacies. So the question was, they don't fix it. They just, you know, they don't do anything. Basically, I'm going to leave this one because if you actually keep track of stuff, you can't help but notice inefficiencies. In back to my values conversation before, in your own value system, we go out to eat a lot. That's just where we are in our life. We have kids, sports, and travel, and we're kind of doing that. But what I noticed was we donate a lot of money to DoorDash. Five years ago, I bet we ate out just as much. We just got our asses off the couch and went and got it, you know, or timed it better and said, you know, hey, on the way home from whatever, we're going to stop and grab the to go order. And now we're just like, ah, we can go home and just play it on our phones. So I'm making a very concerted effort not documenting it, just aware of where we are. A very concerted effort to say, hey, if we want to go out to eat, just go out to eat. Like you have to go get it as opposed to, you know, just doordash, Uber eats.

[Joe Salci]

Sure.

[OG]

And the only reason is because it just was brought to my attention on the spend, you know, on Monarch.

[Joe Salci]

On the app. Yeah.

[OG]

I mean, it's just a number. So to me, it's just something that I happen to pay attention to. So I'm going to say that it does change your behavior a little bit.

[Joe Salci]

We've had a great discussion with our friends hanging out on YouTube. We record these on Monday afternoons, if you want to join us on Monday afternoon. And we put them on the screen. So we kind of have two conversations going on our conversation, another one. But I do want to highlight this one from Dennis. Dennis Doughboy. Like that name, Dennis says. Absolutely. I was budgeting $900 a month for groceries, signed up for Monarch, and I realized I was spending closer to $2,000. Had to cut that down a little bit. Plus Publix, more Walmart, less Publix, more Walmart, I guess. And for og, you know, less doordash, more. Let's go get it. Just pretty pictures, Paula, or does the app actually help you change behavior?

[Paula Pant]

I think the app does help you change behavior. I've often thought of budgeting as the calorie counting of personal finance, in that it's hard to stick with for a long period of time because it's just so tedious. But if you do it in just sprints. Right? In sprints. Exactly. In short sprints, every now and again, just as a check in, it can be the equivalent of saying, hey, I'm just going to take a week to track every single thing that I eat. And I'm not going to try to do it forever because I don't want to walk around with a scale everywhere I go. You know, a food scale everywhere I go. But for one week I can do that. Right. And I think budgeting is very much the same way. It's carrying a food scale and eating everything out of a measuring cup. Right. It's not realistic to do that long term. But doing it in a sprint will give you a lot of information. And you can't help but change your behavior once you have that information.

[Joe Salci]

I think, Paul, it would have been funnier if you walked around with a regular scale right after you. Right after you get done at the restaurant, like you're at some cool Mexican restaurant, then you put your scale down and go, oh, shouldn't have done that.

[OG]

Yeah, she's at Tony Paco's in a couple of weeks. How much are these hot dogs?

[Joe Salci]

Jesse, bring it home for us. Love it or leave it on the financial app.

[Jesse Kramer]

I just think it's cool that OG uses UberEats as a budgeting app. I didn't know it had that functionality.

[OG]

It's on Monarch. It just, you know, it like, it categorizes it.

[Jesse Kramer]

You order food on Monarch. That's cool too.

[Doug]

I like how most people would be like, we, we need to eat out less. Oh, geez. Like, no, no, no, screw that. We're still eating out. They're just actually going to go pick it up. That's where I draw the line.

[OG]

Ipso facto, it's gonna change the behavior. Right? It's like a. It's gonna be 11%. Cause you don't get the doordash markup. But then you're gonna go, I don't feel like going out. And if this is my new rule, then magically there's food in the fridge that I can eat.

[Jesse Kramer]

I've got a prediction. Next year, when OG is not training for a bike race, he's going to get delivery again. He's just looking for an excuse to ride his bike.

[OG]

I mean, to be fair, I did get delivery today. It didn't change behavior today, but it was. We did have a lot of recording to do. So I rationalize.

[Joe Salci]

But if it's like 26 days out of 30, that's good.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Jesse Kramer]

Joe, you just highlighted a comment from Andrea in the chat. It's very similar to one from Peter Drucker. And this might even be the original Peter Drucker quote, which is the one I've heard, is that which gets measured gets managed. And she wrote what gets measured changes. That's what Andrea wrote. What gets measured changes. And that's. I think both OG and Paula hit on it. And that's from my own personal experience, is the act of measuring something, you can't help but start to manage that something or change that something. That's why I still. I don't budget using an app, but I Do look backward at what I've spent. And I try to keep a pulse on what I've spent. Especially like the really big expenses that are kind of out of the ordinary. That's my way of, of measuring my spending and that influences my spending decisions going forward. Whether you use an app or not, it's definitely more than just a colorful way of, of visualizing the spending. It, it does affect how you behave.

[Joe Salci]

I think that was a colorful way. Speaking of colorful ways to end today's show, what a, what a great pre Valentine's Day episode. So many more questions by the way. So little time. I was armed and loaded with a lot of these and maybe some for you guys to think about later. Some more salacious ones. Emergency funds are wildly over recommended for high income earners. Love it or leave it. Automating your money works until life gets complicated and then it quietly fails. Or maybe not so quietly fails. Most people buying umbrella liability insurance don't actually understand what it covers. They just like the name.

[Jesse Kramer]

Ooh.

[Joe Salci]

Estate planning before you have real assets is just adult cosplay like, like that one a lot. Just pretending if you don't have any assets. So think about those stackers and maybe place your love it or leave it on those in our Facebook group. The basement. All right, let's talk about what's going on with all of you this holiday weekend. Oh gee, I know it's a big surprise with what you're doing, but staying at home like 46% of people or what is Doug 42? 46.

[Jesse Kramer]

What was it?

[Doug]

46.

[OG]

Yeah, we'll likely go to dinner somewhere.

[Joe Salci]

So not doing doordash sounds so excited about it.

[OG]

Well, here's the thing. We have a higher propensity to go out on like Sunday than on Saturday because of the whole like it's just stupid on Valentine's Day. You know, like restaurants. Be my 35th Valentine's with my wife. So like okay, we know.

[Joe Salci]

Wait, and he just told us he's 39.

[Paula Pant]

Aren't you 39 years old?

[OG]

Well, I just celebrated my life.

[Joe Salci]

Talk about long term relationship.

[OG]

I did just celebrate my ninth anniversary of being 39. So yes, I'm 39 for the ninth time.

[Joe Salci]

So you will be out day after Valentine's Day probably this weekend.

[OG]

I don't know, it depends on like softball and whatever we'll figure out.

[Joe Salci]

Paula Pant. What are some romantic episodes of Afford anything we can have our listeners go toward if they want to fall in love with their money all over again.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. Well today's episode is not about the heart. It's about the brain. We are interviewing a brain doctor. He does not live in the type of house that Warren Buffett lives in. That's, that's for dermatologists only.

[Joe Salci]

That's right. Forget brain doctors.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah. That's only for skin doctors. But we are interviewing Dr. Majid Fatoui. He is a brain doctor who talks to us about how to keep yourself sharp so that you can live live to be be a CEO of a company at the age of 94. Like Warren Buffett.

[Joe Salci]

Wow, that's cool. So some not just longevity, but also longevity and cognition.

[Paula Pant]

Like he talks about just how to keep your cognitive ability sharp because your brain is your biggest wealth building tool.

[Joe Salci]

That's it. Afford anything. Jesse Kramer what romantic stuff about people and money is coming up on the Personal Finance for Long Term Investors show.

[Jesse Kramer]

We have a special Valentine's Day episode that actually came out earlier this week. And if you're thinking it's probably about asset liability matching and defined duration stock allocations, you are right.

[Doug]

She just shook that dirty mouth of yours.

[Paula Pant]

That's right, nsfw.

[Doug]

Wow.

[OG]

Such sweet blow talk.

[Joe Salci]

Blushing.

[Jesse Kramer]

That's right. Doug actually does all the voiceovers for this episode using his lover boy voice from earlier today. So make sure you tune in.

[OG]

That's his normal voice. This is actually his throwing voice.

[Joe Salci]

And that is at the Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast, which like afford anything is found only where the finest podcasts are at. I want to say another thank you to everybody hanging out with us live on YouTube. This is always so fun doing these live. I'm so glad for all of your appreciative of all of your comments as we made the show. And if you get a chance, come watch it on YouTube and see what all these fine people are rock and rolling about because they had many opinions about. Well, not just about how you guys answered the questions, but also about maybe Paula pants someday winning one of our trivia contests. It's several points on that. All right, Doug, we're going to leave it with you, man. What this Valentine's Day weekend should we have learned from today's show?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, here's what's stacked up on our to do list for today. First, on this Valentine's Eve, when you are craving some intimacy, take some advice from OG Want a little suck in your life? Take on some debt, because all debt sucks. Second, think budgeting apps just show you how much you suck. Take some advice from Jesse. Once you put your spending habits out in the sunlight. You'll be surprised how much your habits change. But the big lesson? Take it from a professional romantic. Nothing will turn up the heat and create delayed gratification like sitting on the couch with your partner wearing your onesie Pokemon pajamas and shoveling a bag of Flamin Hot Cheetos into that naughty, naughty mouth of yours.

[Joe Salci]

Nope.

[Doug]

Thanks to Jesse Kramer for joining us today. Be sure to tune in to his podcast Personal Finance for Long Term Investors, AKA the Flitty Podcast, anywhere you listen to the coolest podcast. We'll also include links in our show notes@stacking benjamin's.com thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fabulous podcast Afford Anything wherever you listen to the finest podcasts. And thanks finally to OG for joining us today. Looking for good financial planning help? Head to stackingbenjamins.comog for his calendar. This show is the property of SP Podcast, LLC, Copyright 2026 and is created by Josal Sehai. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. And oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[Joe Salci]

My spouse Cheryl and I met as middle school track coaches and something just spilled over. Oh, and there it is.

[Paula Pant]

That's Paulette. Perhaps you will remember Paulette Perhatch as a former writer on the Stacking Benjamins podcast. Paulette, come say hi.

[Jesse Kramer]

I was really trying to be sneaky.