Mrs. Dow Jones on How to Become a Future Rich Person (Without Giving Up Your Life) SB1835

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Mrs. Dow Jones on How to Become a Future Rich Person (Without Giving Up Your Life)" – The Stacking Benjamins Show (SB1835)

Date: April 29, 2026
Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy & Josh “OG” Bannerman
Guest: Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones), financial educator and author

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Episode Overview

This lively episode welcomes Haley Sachs, better known as Mrs. Dow Jones, to the Stacking Benjamins card table. With her signature humor and relatable storytelling, Haley shares strategies to build the foundations of wealth ("future rich person" status) without sacrificing joy, authenticity, or your life. The discussion covers Haley's personal journey with money, the importance of financial basics, the pitfalls of “looking rich,” actionable steps for listeners to start their journey, and some of the behavioral shifts required for genuine financial growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Roots of Financial (Il)literacy

[07:16–08:38]

• Haley and Joe discuss growing up with supportive parents but lacking money education. For many, parents avoided money topics—out of ignorance or wanting to shield children from financial stress—which can create "generational trauma."
• Quote: “They gave you everything except financial literacy… You’re causing generational trauma, so mom and dad, you gotta perk up.” —Haley Sachs, [07:25]

2. The "Aha" Money Moment

[08:38–11:05]

• Haley describes feeling lost during her first HR meeting at a "big girl job"—she knew nothing about 401(k)s, health insurance, or benefits despite a prestigious NYC gig.
• This anxiety propelled her into self-education, though she struggled to find financial advice geared to both her demographic and her desire for a glamorous life.
• Quote: “It was my aha money moment—these seem like really big decisions… I have to actually start taking this seriously.” —Haley Sachs, [10:45]

3. Finding Relatable Financial Advice

[11:05–14:15]

• Haley critiques the landscape: male YouTubers with confounding jargon or overly frugal content for women (e.g., “reuse your paper towels”). She created Mrs. Dow Jones to fill the aspirational, approachable gap.
• Quote: “Why isn’t the person who is building, who’s mindful, who’s investing, the person we’re all looking at as aspirational? I didn’t see that. So I became it.” —Haley Sachs, [14:03]

4. Overcoming Shame & Misconceptions

[14:15–16:47]

• Haley stresses that anybody can become financially savvy—she was “patient zero.” She debunks the myth that all finance gurus were born frugal and reminds us it can be fun and empowering.
• Quote: “This is actually not that hard…I’m empowered. I can afford an amazing, beautiful life.” —Haley Sachs, [16:20]

5. The Trap of “Looking Rich”

[16:47–19:28]

• Joe and Haley discuss the “looking rich” trap, often triggered by online culture and impulse spending. Haley shares her own early mistake: buying a (probably fake) Louis Vuitton bag instead of saving for rent.
• The digital era brings opportunity but also unprecedented temptation.
• Quote: “There’s no quicker route than buying something with a logo. I couldn’t afford my rent, but I had this bag.” —Haley Sachs, [17:45]

6. Building Friction Into Spending

[19:28–20:27]

• Reducing friction for investing is great, but adding friction to spending (removing Apple Pay, unsubscribing from shopping newsletters) is a key tactic for future-rich behavior.
• Quote: “Bring on the friction! That’s what helps you stay rich and become a future rich person.” —Haley Sachs, [20:17]

7. “Future Rich Person or Not?” — Rapid Fire Game

[20:27–21:22]

• Fun segment: Haley confirms that “waiting for a miracle,” “marrying rich,” and “buying stuff you can’t afford to impress people” are not future rich person behaviors.
• Memorable Moment: “You’ll be broke, but looking good.” —Joe Saul-Sehy, [21:18]

8. The Future Rich Person Mindset

[21:22–24:44]

• Being future rich means enjoying life now while planning for tomorrow (emphasizing the time value of investing).
• Listeners’ “Aha Moments” are shared, including hard stories of debt and risky investments—the ‘valley of death’ that sometimes triggers change.

9. Building Your Financial "Mise en Place"

[24:55–27:18]

• Like a chef prepping ingredients, set up your financial "mise en place": a bank account you love, a high-yield savings account (HYS), and then progress to investment and retirement accounts.
• Systems and automation trump willpower in achieving financial success.

10. Debt vs. Investing — Which Comes First?

[27:18–28:32]

• Haley’s emergency fund principle: Build your emergency fund (6 months of expenses) in a HYS—even if you have high-interest debt, pay the minimums until the fund is in place, then aggressively attack the debt.
• Analogy: “Leave the burning building first, THEN deal with the attacker.”

11. Don’t Overcomplicate: Automate!

[28:32–31:54]

• Haley credits automation for her own wealth-building. “Automation is the key to financial success.”
• Critique: Many people don’t assess their fixed expenses critically enough; sometimes, one's basic cost of living is simply too high.

12. Focus on Expanding Your Income

[31:13–32:16]

• Cutting costs has a floor, but earnings have no ceiling. Think creatively—even within your current skill set or job, there may be better-paying roles.
• Quote: “You can’t shrink your way to greatness.” —Joe Saul-Sehy, [31:29]

13. Spending on What You Value

[32:16–33:23]

• As you grow, pare back spending that doesn’t bring real joy; save for travel or experiences that enrich your life (both Joe and Haley share their love for affordable Greek holidays).

14. Weekly Action: The Money Date

[33:26–35:33]

• Haley’s number one actionable step: Schedule a monthly money date with yourself to review accounts, spending, subscriptions, and financial goals. Make it fun with wine, music, or your beverage of choice.
• Quote: “Money is a relationship... What you don’t track, you will never grow.” —Haley Sachs, [34:21]

15. About the Book: Future Rich Person

[35:33–37:00]

• Haley’s new book, releasing May 12, 2026 (preorder bonuses available), provides templates and guides to support your money journey, including the viral “money date” template and credit card/debt planners.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “We admire billionaires once they’ve made it, but why isn’t building wealth itself aspirational?” —Haley Sachs, [13:57]
• “I thought financial responsibility meant a sad life of austerity—ramen, no travel, no manicures…” —Haley Sachs, [13:21]
• “Looking rich is about instant dopamine. Becoming actually wealthy is about friction and systems.” —Discussion, [19:28–20:27]
• “A money date is a relationship with your money—you need to spend time together.” —Haley Sachs, [34:00]
• “Automation is the key to financial success. If I relied on willpower, I wouldn’t be a millionaire.” —Haley Sachs, [28:53]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [07:16] — Haley’s intro and upbringing
• [08:38] — Her “aha” money moment in HR
• [11:43] — On locking down personal/cyber security
• [13:07] — Critique of gendered online finance content
• [17:29] — “Looking rich” vs. “being rich” traps
• [19:28] — Adding friction to spending
• [20:27] — “Future Rich Person or Not?” game
• [24:55] — Financial “mise en place” (setup)
• [27:18] — Debt vs. investing (building your emergency fund)
• [28:53] — The automation advantage
• [33:26] — The Money Date ritual
• [35:33] — About the new book and preorder perks

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains the light, comedic, and relatable tone of Stacking Benjamins while packing in practical, actionable personal finance advice. Haley’s authenticity and wit shine, making sometimes “stuffy” topics feel accessible and even fun.

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Key Takeaways for Listeners (per Doug’s Outro, [55:00])

• Master the basics—get-rich-quick schemes are a trap.
• Building wealth is more about systems, automation, and mindset than about extreme austerity.
• Take immediate action: schedule a money date, audit your spending, and automate your savings.
• In major decisions (like mortgages), avoid cutting it too close, and remember: “date the rate, marry the house.”
• Building financial literacy and wealth means playing the long game, learning from mistakes, and enjoying life along the way.

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Links to Haley’s book and resources: mrsdowjones.com/book
Preorder bonuses: Money date templates, credit card guides, debt/planner, generational wealth guide (limited-time offer).

For deeper dives and infographics: Sign up for The 201 newsletter at stackingbenjamins.com/201.

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Summary prepared for those seeking the big lessons and memorable moments—whether you missed the episode or want to reinforce what you heard in Mrs. Dow Jones’ entertaining, empowering crash course on becoming “future rich.”

Transcript

[Doug]

Knock, knock. Capital One bank guy.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Wow.

[Doug]

Charles Barkley. I just moved into the neighborhood.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Can I borrow some WI fi?

[Doug]

Yeah, sure, Chuck. That's what the Capital One Cafe is here for.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Open seven days a week at most locations. Oh, can I use your atm?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

My dog walker only takes cash.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Anything for a neighbor. Can I try the catchphrase?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Sure.

[Doug]

Take it for a spin. There's no fees or minimums on Capital One checking accounts. Nice, Chuck.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I'll take it from here. Capital One.

[Doug]

What's in your wallet?

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Terms apply. Visit capitalone.combankguy for details. Capital One and a member, FDIC.

[OG]

Spider Pig Spider pig does whatever a spider pig does can he swing from a web? No, we can't. He's a pig look out. He is a spider pig.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And today we welcome one of the biggest names in personal finance. Here to talk about how to master the money basics, we welcome the woman we know as Haley Sachs, but you know as Mrs. Dow Jones. Plus, in our headline segment, if you've been looking to borrow money lately, you already know this, but interest rates have been all over the place this year. So how do you deal with costs that are more difficult than ever to predict? We'll share some strategies. And don't you worry if you didn't get Monday's trivia answer. We'll see if we can help you even the score with another fun question. This one I know you'll get. And now two guys who get that financial independence has to start somewhere. So how about right now it's Joe and.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Oh, J.J. juju G. Hey there, stackers. Welcome back to the greatest money show on earth. I am Joe Sal Sehai. You made it. You're here. Sit back, relax, grab some paper because this is the show you want to take notes on because Doug is. You so eloquently said Mrs. Dow Jones finally coming down to mom's basement. So if you're playing the bingo card, when are they going to get them? When are they going to get them? When are they going to get them? We call her Haley Sachs. You call her Mrs. Dow Jones joining us. But the person who's always joining us on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, he is the star of this show. So you already got that. This is the center square on your bingo card. If you're playing the stack of Benjamin's game, Mr. OG is here. How are you, man?

[OG]

I'm the star of the show. Okay.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Of course, duh.

[Doug]

I take umbrage

[Joe Sal Sehai]

going to file a complaint. Doug's pieces of paper in the complaint box have stuff that every episode there's a complaint from Doug about something that hurt his feelings and we need to have a discussion about. But the thing we're going to be discussing today is turning you into future millionaire because that is what Haley Sachs wants to talk about today. So if you're not to a million dollars yet or if you think you could have gotten there quicker if you are a millionaire, well, we're going to talk about the foundation and how to get rolling toward a million. So if you know somebody else who needs to get rolling the right direction, man, this woman is a dynamo and I'm super happ happy that she's here. Before we talk to Haley Sachs, who has a couple million followers on her Instagram channel, hundreds of thousands of people following her on YouTube and on her other channels, we've got a couple sponsors who help us keep on keeping on. The first is the Vault. You know you've got 15 apps on your phone. One that helps you with privacy, one that helps you with subscriptions, one that helps you with your budget, one that helps you with your network tracking. You got all these different apps. Why would you have them all in the vault together? Keep your identity safe, keep your credit score secure, and build wealth for the future. Stacky benjamin.com vault gets you there built by two great teams. The team at Array which helps lots of banks and credit unions and now helps you and the team at Budget simple that has worked extensively with brands to help them create the best budgeting software that you can find that you'll also find by the way at lots of banks and credit unions and now you'll find at the Vault. We put the two teams together to make this cool Swiss army knife. Stacky benjamin.com vault all right, we have a couple more sponsors now that we're going to hear from Haley. Then we only have a couple more for the rest of the episode. So we're going to hear from these two and then Mrs. Dow Jones coming down to the basement. Haley Sachs, as you hear this, I just got back from keynoting the Millionaire Money Mentors conference in Florida. I'm sure I had a great time even though I haven't gone yet as I record this. But I know wherever any stacking Benjamin's people are, it's always a party, isn't it? But what makes it even better party is the fact that when you see pictures of me Those clothes came from Quints. I've been getting intentional lately about what I wear during the day today and on stage and leaning in more into pieces that feel easy, that are comfortable, that I can travel with and still look put together. It just makes getting dressed simpler. Whether I'm at home or on the road, Quint has been my go to. The fabrics feel elevated. The fits are clean. Everything just works without needing to overthink it. Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34. Lightweight, breathable and comfortable, but still look put together and clean. 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Their pants also hit that same balance. Relaxed and comfortable, but still polished enough to wear pretty much anywhere. Everything's priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. Quint works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're getting premium materials without the markup between the pants that feel so incredibly comfortable. And my favorite is still that first cashmere sweater that I got. It is so nice. It's great to feel good because you know that your wardrobe looks good and it didn't cost anywhere near what I thought clothing that looks like that would cost. It should be the same for you. Refresh your everyday with luxury. You'll actually use head to quint.com sb and because you're a stacker, you'll get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's qu I n c.comSB for free shipping. 365 day returns. Quint.comSB. And I'm super happy. We finally, finally have this woman coming down the stairs to mom's basement. Have a seat. Haley Sacks. Nobody knows her as Haley. Everybody knows her as Mrs. Dow Jones. How are you?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Well, I'm better now that I'm finally getting to see your digs. Like, this is crazy. It's so nice that your mom lets us record here.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I know. No rent, Hayley.

[Doug]

No rent.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

No rent. See, that's future rich person behavior, that is.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I'm on future rich person team already. And you know what's funny is you dedicate your brand new book, which I'm super excited about, to your parents, who you write right in the dedication, you say they gave you everything except financial literacy. It's the same thing with me. Like, I got all this love and support and no idea what a, what a 401k was. I feel like a lot of us were Raised to be good people, but not good with.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

With money, 100%. And I think that it's like from two places. One is they just don't know that maybe they were never taught. And so they've never really thought about money, so they're not going to teach their children. But I think there's another part of it too, where if your parents grew up in a situation where money was really stressful, then for their kids, they want to avoid it. Almost to save you that strength.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Yeah. To be protective. Like, no, no, no, you don't need to worry about this. I'll worry about it.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Like, as though it's a gift. But then you don't realize that you're causing generational trauma. So mom and dad, you gotta perk up.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

And you know what? You tell your story. You are in this HR meeting and immediately you're like, wait a minute, what's going on? You all of a sudden realize, I have no idea what any of this stuff means. Take me to that moment. What's going on in your head?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yeah, absolutely. So I had like my first big girl job when I got out of college. I hit the ground running in New York City trying to become a comedian. And as anyone pursuing an artistic career knows, that means that you are late at night working on your craft and then during the day usually holding a lot of smaller gigs. So I worked at a Pilates studio behind the front desk. I was a nanny for a kid named Winthrop on the Upper east side.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

His name, by the way, Haley, had to be Winthrop. It had to be.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

It had to be Winthrop. And it like the fact, I know I didn't realize it then, but it was central casting. You know, I just had all these little jobs that I was, you know, running around doing. And I didn't have a full time role where they were ever asking me about benefits or health insurance. So I sort of skirted that issue, not really even knowing that it was an issue because at that point I didn't have any financial literacy and I was not future planning at all. And it really was just sort of like paycheck to paycheck, and then a lot of times cash to cash, because, you know, babysitters get paid under the table a lot of the time.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Yeah.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

And so stuck that in my pocket. But then I got this job for Lorne Michaels, who started snl, which was a dream. As someone who was pursuing comedy, obviously I wanted to do such a good job and, you know, finally my parents were proud of me. I had a real job. It was incredible. I. And so I show up the first day, and as any good HR manager would, they asked me about my 401k contributions. They asked me which health insurance coverage I was interested in, and my eyes just glazed over. And I got so anxious because I realized that I had no idea how to answer any of these questions. And I was terrified of doing it wrong because these seem like really big decisions that certainly I could not be held responsible to make. And so that was sort of my aha. Money moment, where I was like, okay, I have to actually start taking this seriously, because I'm taking this job really seriously, and they're not going to take me seriously if I can't show up as an adult. Who can answer these questions?

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Well, this is what I love about you, is you go home and you study it right away. You're like, okay, I'm not going to look dumb in two meetings. Like, it's okay to look dumb in one meeting, but in two meetings, you know, there's all these resources where you can go get this stuff. Which drives me crazy because a lot of the time people like, I don't know where to look for it. You've got one of the most amazing channels. I was telling you as we were getting ready to record how much I love your advice around the Iran conflict and about the fact that, you know what, cyber warfare is a big part of this. Button down your stuff. Like, button down your identity, button down your credit, because, you know, you don't want to be on the front line along with a lot of other people.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yeah, 100%. I feel like not enough people know that you can just have your credit frozen all of the time, and that's the right way to live. And it's very easy to unlock if you want to open a new credit card or you need to apply for a loan, but it gives you so much security. And, yeah, unfortunately, in 2026, any real war is always coupled with cyber war. So that is something you gotta lock down right away. But, yes, I'm sad that I didn't know at that point about your podcast, because you were podcasting at that. And I would have loved listening. Maybe it would have taken me on a different path, but instead I found myself on YouTube and basically was met with videos of men in T shirts with whiteboards trying to explain investing jargon, unsuccessfully. And it just sort of looked like they had never been through puberty, let alone, like, made any money. So I was not impressed. And then the content, that was more towards women Felt so oppressive to a glamorous, fun lifestyle, which is something that I think had really also held me back from taking financial responsibility because I thought that it just meant a life of austerity, that I was going to have to live, you know, eating ramen nonstop and like, you know, no more manicures and no travel. And just like that, it was from one extreme to the next.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

You were talking about even like, reuse your paper towels, I think.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yes, exactly. Those were the videos that I saw for women that was like, you should wash and reuse your paper towels. And I was like, certainly this is not the financial wisdom of our age. Like, I either have to listen to these guys who I, you know, have no interest in and who are so confusing and who just make investing seem more confusing, or I have to listen to this content towards women, which just seems like so sad. And I wanted to learn about money from someone who could make it feel glamorous and most importantly, aspirational to be good with money. Which is something that I think is so missing from the culture and is why I made Mrs. Dow Jones. Is that like, we should admire, we always, we admire billionaires. We admire people once they've made it, but the person who is on their way, who's building, who's cutting back, who's mindful, who's investing, like, why isn't that aspirational? Why isn't that what we're all looking towards as like, oh, that's what we want to be like? And so I didn't see that. So then I became it. And that's how Mrs. Dow Jones was born.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

This is what I find empowering. Is any of our stackers listening? If you're new to all this and you think I'm not going to get there, I mean, Haley, you went from, I don't understand a 401k, but I can break down a Taylor Swift relationship timeline. Like, I've got the whole Taylor Swift relationship timeline down, but I don't know what a 401k was to reversing that to now. You're one of the main people teaching it online. Like, you can do this, you can get there. And in fact, it's funny you also say something that whatever you do badly with money, people that are future rich person out there, I did worse. Like, you didn't log into your credit cards ordering Nobu for breakfast. I found that funny. It's like rock, rock shrimp tempura and cold brew. Like that. That's not in most financial plans. I don't Know if you know that,

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

I mean, it should be because they pair really well together. But no, I mean, that's what I always say is like, I think that so many financial experts, it seems like that they were born to do that. Like, they, you know, they seem like those 10 year olds who have lemonade stands and are flipping the profits into the market. And, you know, Warren Buffett bought his first stock when he was 11 or 12. And it's always. Those are always the people who are teaching about money. It's people who seem to always have a knack for it and like, almost like a superpower. And so for me, it's like, no, I am just like you and I'm patient zero. And if I'm able to get here to the other side, then you can too. And by the way, it's beautiful. It's so much better than living with the wool over your eyes. And I'm empowered. I can afford an amazing, beautiful life. And I'm able to help a lot of people throughout my advice, because I think that, yeah, it's hard to find a teacher who you feel like won't really judge you and who breaks it down in terms that you understand. And also, I feel like it doesn't have to be so serious. Like, you're fun too, Joe. Like, it's like, why does it always have to feel like this intense medical drama whenever we're talking about our finances? It's like, no, we can have fun. There's levity. Because that was the biggest thing when I started my financial journey is I was like, oh, I've been lied to. This is actually not that hard. Oh. All this time I thought that I can't do this, that it's way over my head, that I need to have someone else help me. My dad should do it for me, or maybe I'll find, like, a guy who can do it. And then I was like, wow, damn. This is actually really simple. And I think that's also why women are such good investors, because we get it. We're like, oh, this is simple. We got this.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Yeah, focus on the foundation instead of the guy who hasn't been through puberty that you just talked about. Don't worry about all the stuff he's putting on that whiteboard. Worry about getting the basics. You make a big point of the fact that, you know, what kind of holds us back is not the fact that we can't get this. It's that we're obsessed with looking rich instead of being rich. And that really hit me Because I started thinking about what drives that behavior. It feels like there's this whole economy that's built on, don't check my bank account, just look at my outfit. What is the most common looking rich trap that you think most of us fall into before we start going down a Mrs. Dow Jones future rich person highway?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

I mean, it happened to me. I think that it's like the designer purchase. You know, if you want to look rich, there's no quicker route than just buying something that has some sort of logo on it. Like for me, it was. I bought a Louis Vuitton monogrammed bag, by the way, from ebay. So I'm sure that it was like fake. And then I couldn't afford my rent, but it was like I had gotten a first paycheck and I was like, I feel good. I'm rich now. Let me stunt on everyone and get this bag. And I think that that is the same for most people, especially with online culture. Because the truth is, we live in this golden age of finance where from our phones we can invest so much easier than any other generation. We can check our bank statements, our credit card statements. We can be on top of our money and grow our money in the most democratized way now because of the digital age. But with that has also come so much distraction and advertisement of what to spend the money on. So, you know, our parents generation saw 500 ads a day and we see at least 5,000. That's a huge influx. And not to mention on social media now, everything is shoppable. So if you see that influencer that you admire wearing a new outfit, because they're always wearing a new outfit within two minutes. With Apple Pay, you can buy what they bought and then, you know, have that feeling of what feels like their life for a second. Because obviously the core human condition is that sometimes we want to escape our own lives. Spending sometimes feels like an easy way to do that.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

It's like the friction is gone. Either way, you made the point we could invest very quickly if we want to, but we can also get the hell into debt very quickly if we want to. It's like you got to decide what team you're going to play on.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yeah, you have to decide. But I also think that you need to create space systems around it too. Because I find that a lot of impulse spending is really just from a lack of emotional regulation. It's when you're sad or when you're tired or when you haven't eaten in eight hours, or when you're not Your best. It is a way to have that dopamine hit and so just be able to create pauses between you and that spending can really help. And then also creating systems around your online content diet so that you are unsubscribing from newsletters that really cause you to spend or influencers that make you feel bad about yourselves. And so you're always spending money or removing Apple Pay from your phone. Like, I actually think the key to financial success is building in more friction. Like you said, frictionless. I'm like, bring on the friction. Bring it on. Like, that's what helps you stay rich and get rich and become a future rich person.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

That's so interesting. The fact that in this case friction is a great thing. Like eliminate the friction on investing. But on the spending side, creating that friction is pretty powerful. Let's get into. We've talked about it a few times. We've said the words future rich person. I want to play a very quick game of future rich person or not. So I'm going to say the phrase, you tell me, future rich person or not. Ready?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yes.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Future rich person or not. Waiting for a money miracle. Not future rich person or not. Marrying rich as a strategy. Not future rich person or not buying stuff you can't afford to impress people.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Oh, that's a hard one. Not

[Joe Sal Sehai]

one more. Future rich person or not. 14 blushes zero in your 401k not.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

But you're going to have great rosy cheeks.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

You'll be broke. With phenomenal cheeks.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

You'll be broke, but looking good.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Those are all nuts. Great job. What does a future rich person do differently?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Hayley A future rich person enjoys their life now, but also sets their future self up. Because you have to always be thinking about where you're going. Because finance is so based on time. Financial success is based on time in the market, which I'm sure you're listeners are very aware of because you know, they listen to you. Joe. Smart cookie. But you know, and so being a future rich person is really being able to enjoy today while planning for tomorrow.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

You share some of these. A lot of what your fans have gone through these aha. Money moments. And these were a kick in the gut. Haley. As I was reading them, some of them just to share a few of our stackers.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

They're real.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Oh, they're horrible. Yeah. And they're just life hitting all of us.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yep. 100%.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

By the way, I was distracted because you've got the EBITDA mug.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yes. I'm gonna send you one.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Thank you for People not watching on YouTube. Hayley's got the EBITDA mug, which is fantastic.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

And Joe has a mug from Greece because he budgeted wisely and went on vacation.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I took the EBITDA and I made it work for me. Cause I was listening to Mrs. Dow Jones Channel.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Well, there's a girl in the book who went to Japan on her high yield savings account interest.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Which is the point, right?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

That is the point.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Not having more Benjamins, but living a Benjamin lifestyle. $60,000 of health care, rehab that wasn't covered. $135,000 in student loans. All sudden realized she had $135,000 in student loans. Somebody who said, I yoloed into Haktua coin. This one really killed me and lost 4,000 bucks. Many of us. You had your aha moment. I had my aha moment. Do we have to go through this valley of death or can we get ahead of it?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

I think that a valley of death is not such a bad thing. You know, like, out of the ashes, the phoenix does rise. But I do think that it sort of depends on your disposition. I'm the kind of person where I. I told you before, Joe, like, if you tell me that the stove is hot, I'm not gonna believe you. I need to touch it and get burned. Like, that's just me. I learned through experience. But that doesn't mean that if you have an I don't know how money moment, you should go seek one out. Because, like, don't go get yourself into a lot of debt.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

And, like, I need to know what this feels like. Right?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yeah. No, if you could avoid it, please do. I did not have that luxury, but. And I don't think many people do. But what I talk about really is the shift. And I think that especially when you're in, like, your 20s and your 30s, where you're growing up and you're with your friends and it feels really fun and easy and carefree finances. And you sort of feel like everyone's on the same page as you, and no one's really planning for the future. And you're all just sort of, you know, yoloing. And then you look up and you realize, oh, my gosh, like, how are they affording having a kid? Wait, they're buying a house? How'd they buy a house? Oh, wait. Like, they're starting their own business. And you have this moment where you realize that everyone else has sort of been diligently becoming future rich people, but no one gave you the memo. And so that is also A Aha. Money moment. I think for many, too, where they realize, ooh, maybe I'm a little bit behind.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Yeah. You start to feel it. The stuff we've covered so far, Stackers has been really the foundational stuff to a lot of the tactics that are in your book, on your channel, on your new podcast.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yeah. Financial team. You got to come on.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Absolutely. I think just based on this, Haley, we'd have a. We'd have a great time. Let's get there a little bit. We're obviously just going to be able to cover a couple foundational things today. Like we pack a travel bag for when we take the trip to Greece. There are some things we need. What are some of the accounts you think that might be? Things that we need to make sure that we set up if we're beginning this journey toward becoming a future rich person.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Well, I talk a lot about in the book. Like, you know, on Instagram, when you watch chefs cook, and they always have all of their ingredients in little bowls, and they're putting the bowls in the pot, and you're like, okay, I would never do that at home. But it looks so great that they have everything chopped before. Great. So that's called mise en place, which is a French term that I borrowed, because obviously I love the way that they kiss. And so I talk about that with your finances, where before you even start cooking, you need to make sure that you have all your little ingredients set up so that you're able to successfully build your financial structure. Because so much of financial success is about systems and structure. It's not about willpower. It's not about being super smart and reading the Wall Street Journal every day. It's literally just about setting yourself up so that you're infallible. And no matter what happens around you in your life, you are not going to fail because you've got it all, your systems. Where we start with is one having a really solid bank account, which I think a lot of people just have the same bank account that they have from, like, their college fair. You know, they gave them a free pen, and they don't realize that, oh, maybe they're getting charged crazy fees. Actually, I hate the app. Like, there's just a lot of hidden, nefarious things that can happen with banks. So I encourage people to look critically at their bank account, because you should love your bank account. And there's lots of great banks out there now, especially online banks that are giving great rates. And then you also need a high yield savings account, which I'M sure you can talk about a lot too, which is just a higher yield place to put your emergency fund and any short term savings that is separate from your regular bank so you don't really see it. And then on top of that, you know, you'll build in investment accounts and you know, all of your retirement accounts and things like that. But we start with the checking account and the high yield savings account because they're for sort of like the baseline account structure that every person needs in their life.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

People start out, they got debt and they want to begin investing. Which one comes first?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

So I talk about this in the book, like in those action movies where someone is in a fight scene and the building is on fire and someone is attacking them and you're like, what are they going to do? Are they going to deal with the fire or are they going to, you know, fight this attacker off? And the truth is when you have debt and you don't have an emergency fund, it feels like that you've got things coming at you from all directions. But you have to leave the building first, avoid the fire and then you can deal with the attacker. Because if you deal with the attacker and the building burns down, you know no one's winning. So I say that you need to start with your emergency fund. That is the first thing you need to do. Put that oxygen mask on first. Get that six months in a high yield savings account. Even if you have high interest rate debt, just pay the minimum while you're saving that emergency fund. That is your first priority. And then once that is all stacked up, stacking Benjamin's, then you can focus on paying off your high interest rate debt. And I have a really great method for doing that in the book. Which is the fastest and cheapest way to pay off debt.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Man, it's funny. I want to ask you about that, but I have four other questions which are higher priority.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Okay, I love it.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

What's something that people over complicate? Because as you said earlier, we make this all complicated. You know, we got the whiteboard board with 57 things you need to do. What is the main thing you see when you're meeting with people or you get feedback from your audience that they're way overthinking?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

I think one is lack of automation. Like automation is the key to financial success. I would not be a millionaire without automation. There's no way. Because we're human beings, we're fallible. Like we wake up every day, we think that we're going to go on a 12 mile run. We're going to have a green juice. We are going to get 12 hours of work done in two minutes. And then by 3pm it's like, give me the cookie, let's hit the bong. And like, where's the beer? You know, like.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

And you described our announcer guy, Doug, today, Yesterday, just now.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

I love that for him. But so you need to create, use automation so that you don't have to rely on yourself for that. And then the other thing that I think that people miss is just looking at their fixed expenses. Because a lot of times your life before you even add in, like, grocery shopping and travel and going out with your friends and all the fun stuff that makes life worth living, your actual fixed expenses are too high. And that just puts you on this pedantic treadmill where every month, before you even add anything else in, you're underwater. And so what's so bad about cutting back a little? Or you have two choices. You either have to make more money or save more money. And with saving money, there's a floor to how much you can cut. But with making money, there is no ceiling to how much you can make. And so I really come from, like, an abundant money mindset. I really believe in encouraging people to make more money. I believe there's so much money out there for all of us, but also that you have to be smart about how you do it. Because online, everyone's like, get a side hustle. Like, oh, just add this in. It's like, great. If you're a nurse who's already working 100 hours a week at a hospital, you're going to side hustle. Yeah, right. You're going to pass out. Like, you don't have the bandwidth for that. You got to be with your family. You got to take care of yourself. And so maybe it's about just finding a better job. Should you work at a private hospital instead of a public hospital? Should you go into private nursing? Finding ways to optimize your skills where you could be paid more? Because when you're creative, you actually can find routes to make more money, which I know it sounds really easy when I say it like that, and it is difficult, but I do think that when you really look critically at what your skill set is, there are opportunities to bring up your income.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Yeah, I feel like a lot of Money Channel fans are people that are born to find ways to cut. And yet you can't shrink your way to greatness. Is a phrase I heard a long time ago that I love, love that phrase. You can only cut so much. It's like, at some point, it's about living.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

I also hate cutting. Like, my money philosophy is, like, I'm always trying to find ways to make more money versus cutting. I mean, sometimes I do cut. Like, don't get me wrong. And I keep myself on a budget, for sure. But I also, like, I just try. To me, it feels so much more, like, makes you feel so much more expansive to think about how can I make more versus getting so stressed about what I need to cut back on.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

It's funny because now the reason I cut back, and of course, I'm in a better place than I was when I was horrible with money in the 90s. But the main reason I cut now is because I think I really don't value this. Like, why am I spending money on this thing that I don't value my life? Like, it's just a waste, so there's no reason to have it. But making more money is always, you know, another trip to Greece or another day in Greece while you're there.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Well, I didn't realize that we were both so obsessed with Greece. I'm also. I go every summer, and I think that it is where that's great to go to stretch your dollar, too, because people always think about, like, the big islands that the cruise ships go on, but if you go to the smaller. Like, last summer, I went to Foligandros and Sifnos, but it was so. It was affordable and it was just so beautiful and remote. And so I feel really aligned with you. But also, I love what you said about cutting things that you don't value. I feel like we talked about designer goods and like, that to me was sort of. I love fashion, so that is definitely something that I spend money on. But in terms of peacocking at all, I don't do it really anymore, you know, because it doesn't really add value to my life. I don't ever order food in, like, just things that you're like, that you sort of do on repeat. I'm like, I'd rather just scramble some eggs. I have been burned by delivery sushi so many times. I think we can call it, you know. You know,

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I heard a joke one time. Two words that don't go together are discount and sushi.

[OG]

Yes.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Or gas station sushi. Right.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yeah, I agree.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

What's the first thing a future rich person does this week?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

I think the first person that a future rich person does this week is you have a money date, which is something that I do. Religiously and by the way, guys, I never want to do it. A lot of times to get where you want to go in life, it's like going to the gym, but then once you're there, you're totally fine. But it's like, you know, every time that I'm like, okay, I've got to do my money date this month, I have to sort of kick myself to get myself to sit down and actually open my bank accounts. But then I feel so much better after. So that's the other thing is, like, I want to be real about the fact that, like, people always say, oh, if you do something for 21 days, it becomes a habit. And then you just, like, magically become a different version of yourself. And it's like, so easy. And it's like, no, sometimes it's still hard, but it doesn't matter. You still have to do it. But anyways, a money date is just a set time every month where you sit down with your money. Because, Joe, money is a relationship. And if you were in a relationship and you guys never spent time together, I don't think that it would be going very well. You need time to review your spending, look at your bank statements. I'm always finding things that I forgot to cancel subscriptions. Maybe I'm seeing a charge for a package that I forgot to send back. And it's just a set time to take care of all of those tasks. Yeah, opening your mail, like, just that stupid adulting that we all have to do. Financial adulting. It's so annoying, but we gotta do it. And if you don't schedule the time to do it, you just won't do it. Because it's not a fun thing that you're going to want to just throw into your day to day. You got to be like, okay, this is what I'm doing it. And also you can make it fun. I don't believe in delivery sushi, but I do believe in cracking open a bottle of wine at home sometimes and looking at my finances, like, not something that I would say no to, you know, or a lot of people don't drink. You could have a mocktail. But whatever your poison is, try to make it as enjoyable as possible. But take that time to have a money date just because what you don't track, you will never grow. So it's really important to understand where you're at financially if you want to make progress.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

It's been so fun getting to know you just a little bit. And this interview could be 18 hours long, but we're going to let you go to the next thing. Hayley's new book is Future Rich Person. If you don't mind, put it right in front of the camera for our YouTube viewers because this is awesome. What a cool cover. It is out shortly, just in a couple weeks. What's the day it comes out, Haley?

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

So it comes out May 12th and you can get it on MrsDowJones.com book. But because I know that your listeners, they love a good deal, they love good value, I will say it's worth it to pre order because I have stacked, I've stacked Benjamin's, but I've also stacked about $700 of bonuses for pre order customers that you get access to the moment that you pre order it. So like you'll get my money book, which is this like viral money template that's like your companion for your money date. You'll get my credit card guide, you'll get my debt payoff planner, you'll get my generational wealth guide. Like just basically everything that you need in your toolkit to become a future rich person comes when you pre order. So it's definitely worth it. But a lot of those offers are expiring so we gotta make sure that we move fast.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Gotcha. The guide plus your implementation right there. Together. We had somebody today with another segment of our show who was like, I really would like infographics around all this stuff. I would like a workbook to be able to go through it. And that's what you're giving people.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Yes, exactly. We gotta hook em up. I'm like that too. I need that.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

So fun getting to know you. We will link to not just the book and Mrs. Dow Jones website, but also to your fantastic social channels. Because if you're not following Haley on social media, you're missing out because two things, as you saw today, she's super funny. And also number two, man, your vice is just so spot on. When you were talking again, I'm going to go back to the same spot when you were talking about what to do at the beginning of the Iranian conflict. It was the three things that you need to do. And you know, I'm going to link specifically that video so people go watch it. Great seeing you. Thank you so much for visiting mom's basement.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

Jo, I admire you so much. I really think you are so terrific at what you do. You're such a pro. And I'm a stacker, so it is really exciting to be in the basement. I've got to tell everyone who's listening. Great hospitality. Love it here. And I'm hoping to come back because like you said, this conversation could have been way longer. And I agree.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

This is Erin from Colorado Springs, and

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

when I'm not teaching three boys how

[Joe Sal Sehai]

to patch hockey stick holes in drywall, I'm stacking Benjamin's.

[Doug]

Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And isn't Haley Sax amazing? Mom's completely charmed upstairs. And I, on the other hand, am not happy because who wants to follow that? But we'll make the most of it by switching from Mrs. Dow Jones to the Dow Jones, which you may know is and industrial company average. Hundreds of millions of investors worldwide use to track financial Progress in the USA. This index is most often represented by just 30 companies, which brings up this question. Of the current companies in the Dow, which one has been there the longest? I'll be back with the name of a company you know very well. Right after I get Haley's autograph. I'm sure she'll also want mine. You know, we'll just, we'll swap. Hey there, stackers. I'm autograph swapper and guy who might be putting something up on ebay this afternoon, if you know what I mean. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Ah, the Dow Jones, created in the 1800s, but still crude, cruising along like a kid on a bike coasting downhill. Sure, sometimes he's screaming his head off, but other times he's basking in the joy of all that momentum. Let's take a look at today's question. Of the 30 companies in the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which of the current companies has been in it the longest? While a few companies have been in longer, they are no longer in the exchange or had breaks between their long runs. Case in point. Point. If GE were still in the Dow, it'd be the champ because it lasted from the Original date of 1896 all the way to 2018 before dropping out of the current companies. Today, it's Proctor and Gamble that takes the prize, having been added on May 26, 1932. And now back to guys who don't like to Gamble with Money, but they're the proctors of your money examination. Oh, that's awkward, Joe. And OG Put that rubber glove away, Joe.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

And you could tell by the part that we deleted that Doug doesn't know what proctoring an exam means, but it's never good. It doesn't. Doesn't sound great. Hey, let's go to something that does sound great. A headline hello, darlings.

[Haley Sachs (Mrs. Dow Jones)]

And now it's time for your favorite

[OG]

part of the show, our stacking Benjamin's Headlines.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Our headline today comes to us from the Wall Street Journal. This is written by our friend Veronica Dagger and Ben Eisen. Oh gee, you've been monitoring this. There's been a lot of volatility, in fact of Veronica, because she is a journalist, calls it extreme volatility in the mortgage market. See how it's playing out? Veronica and Ben Wright. Mortgage rates started the year falling. By the end of March, they were soaring. People taking out 30 year fixed mortgages to buy homes or refinance have had to endure especially high rate volatility as a market responds to twists and turns in public policy. Whipsawing rates, man, she's got all the words today. Whipsawing rates are now threatening to chill the spring home buying season. Prospective buyers often decide what they can afford based on mortgage pre approvals, but then have to return later to lock in a rate that might have risen. Meanwhile, and this is what I want to talk about, OG let's say that one of our stackers is thinking about this. They're thinking about moving. They're thinking about maybe refinancing the house. She's not wrong. I, I love the terminology, right. Soar and plummet, whipsaw and all these things. But let's be realistic. Rates have been bumpier since January than we've seen in quite a long time. If you're trying to lock down what you do next, either lock in a low rate or you're trying to buy a house, how do you frame this with somebody who's trying to get a little bit of certainty in an uncertain world?

[OG]

While I think that the rates that you pay on your debt is something to factor into your decision making, I'm not entirely sure that you want to base your entire mortgage strategy or your cash flow plan to like the tippy top. What is the exact amount of money that I can borrow to have my lips just barely cresting the surface of the water, according to the bank. You know, the bank's job is to optimize for profit for the bank and also risk reward. Right. And so they've largely accepted that. If your mortgage payments are less than 36% mortgage, all in taxes, homeowners association insurance plus principal and interest is 36%. Your total debt payments are 42% of your gross income. Then largely assume that you're going to be able to make your payments. That's kind of the number that they go. We'll accept this risk. But if you think about it from like the logical standpoint, if you make $100,000, you're going to pay some taxes and that sort of stuff. Off the top, 42 grand of that hundred going to debt is an insane percentage. That is crazy talk in terms of trying to figure out like all the other things that have to go on in your life, like food and utilities. And if you're buying a house for the first time, it's not something as simple as going, well, my rent's 2500, I can go pay 2500amortgage. And I'm not, you know, wasting money on rent. You have more volume of a house probably to heat and cool and clean and ensure and make sure stuff doesn't break. And when it does break, you have to fix.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

And you know, there's like garbage sometimes that wasn't.

[OG]

I mean, there's just more stuff to deal with. It's not a simple transaction of like, I'm spending 2,500 in rent, I can get a $2,500 mortgage and I'm even money. I think my advice would be while the rates are important and you know, we could have the debate of like, should you have a 30 year or 15 or should you, you know, get an adjustable rate? You know, how does that all work out? While we can have that debate, I think at the end of the day I would keep that number to more like 25% of my gross income, like my house payment to give yourself some breathing room for those extra things. And also you don't want to be so stressed out. Like, I think everybody compares. I just saw this chart the other day. It was a gap between like wealth or net worth or something like that, adjusted obviously, you know, for inflation, so on and so forth. But millennials are in a better spot. And I know that's going to like rage baiting a bunch of people and they'll be like, are you kidding me? Like, housing prices and grandma, grandpa and I get it, okay? But for some reason it seems to me that people are comparing other people's like, end to their beginning. And I'll give you a perfect example of this. It's just a mentality thing. My son, who is 16, almost 17, we were talking about different things, family related and money. And, you know, we're kind of an open book. And he asked something about the house and how much does it cost and how much is it worth and, you know, what's the payment and all that sort of stuff. And we talked about it. He's like, how in the heck am I ever going to afford that? Like, that is an insane amount of money to pay on a house. Or like the. The purchase price, you know, And I was like, dude, I'm almost 50. Like, this is my end house, not your beginning house. We see these things and we go, like, I want that, but I'm at this stage of my life. I don't understand why we. Why we have to compare it that way. We don't have to always have the top of the line everything or, you know, live in the absolute best neighborhood or, you know, whatever. Like, I get that there's going to be pros and cons to that and like, school districts and all that sort of stuff, but it's okay to have a smaller house first if that's what's in line with your budget and wait to catch up. I don't understand the allure of the stress of what realtors will say. Buy your second house first. You've heard that phrase. Maybe you guys have heard that phrase from real estate professionals. It sounds horrible. It just sounds like something. Maybe this is what they told me.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

It's so horrible.

[OG]

Maybe that's just. They're like, you got to look about you. You should buy your second house first. I can already tell that you'll do it. I mean, you should do it as better for your family. But why be stressed out about this stuff? What's the value of the anxiety versus. Well, no, you don't understand. Like, this is where I have to be because this is the, you know, whatever.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I feel the same way about this as I do about safe withdrawal rates. Why would I be on the bleeding edge of the. This is all the money I can spend. Because you're gonna og. You're gonna worry about everything. Every time there's any fluctuation at all, you're gonna worry about. Is my safe withdrawal rate still safe? We're not gonna know until you're dead. We're not gonna have any idea until it's over 78.

[OG]

Your safe withdrawal rate could have been 22.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

We have no idea. So why 105?

[OG]

Probably should be 3.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

So why? You're gonna begin your plan there. And. And I'm glad you brought this up about this, this topic, because, you know, my initial thought is you need to give yourself a range. Number one, give yourself a range. And number two is we're always trying to call the top or bottom of everything, and you got to give that away. You're never going to do it. You're Never going to call the top or bottom.

[OG]

Well, again, the comparison game is what. What's the phrase there? Comparison is the theater.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Mama says that all the time.

[OG]

I think, like, Emerson said it all the time, actually.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Well, I don't know. Emerson got it from Mom, I bet.

[OG]

Probably. But we have these things, especially, you know, new home buyers. They hear these stories of, like, I got my mortgage at two and a half. Like, once in 10 generations, right? Of, like, chaos that. That had that happen. When we bought our house in 2015, our mortgage rate was 4. And I remember thinking, like, that was such an insane number. I would never pay that off early. And I would try to cajole the bank into letting me borrow more money, repeatedly at 4%, you know, like, how long can I run the charade? But when I started planning in the late 90s, I remember refinancing houses from eight and a half down to six and a half. And that was like a huge savings.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Huge.

[OG]

Generationally, if you look at the historical rates, they've been falling for 40 years. Since the 1980s, rates have, like, just kind of trended all the way down to where they are now. And I know it feels like they're high, but this is kind of a normal number. And so you might be able to arbitrage or you might be able to get lucky and be like, I got mine at 5 and 7, 8. Like, wow, what a great rate. Or I got screwed and I got mine at six and a quarter. But this is kind of where it's supposed to be in terms of the numbers. There might be some craziness that happens. And in case you forgot, the reason that you got 2 1/2% on your mortgage refinance in 2020 was because the world was ending. Like, every single solitary thing in the entire universe shut down all at the same time. And no one was allowed to do anything ever. So all business, every single solitary mode of economic growth was shut down. And it caused the entire economy to collapse in 17 days. And only because of the intervention of the federal government did it not turn into a giant depression. And part of that was massively lowering rates. So if you want all that to happen again, let's get after it. The two and a half percent thing was kind of fun. The reason we got two and a half percent was pretty much the worst thing imaginable. So let's not say that that's a good idea. I think you have to give yourself a lot of margin when you're borrowing money and recognize it's not a Life sentence. You can refinance. You can borrow at a cheaper rate. There's so much creative financing out there. Now. If you've got brokerage account money and you're borrowing money, you might consider using your brokerage account instead of a traditional loan. There's lots of opportunities there. There's just a lot of ways to borrow money. I wouldn't do it right up to the edge, you know, because that's stressful and stress sucks.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Yeah. I think that giving yourself then that range, if it's between here and here, then I'm going to go forward. And also remember, if you're moving, if you're moving OG and you're changing regions of the country or you really want the new house, if it's in the middle of your range, even though it's not as low as it was, remember that, that rate to your point, when you refinance, you can refinance again if it goes lower. So I don't like dealing with man. Rates were at 3%, and now they're way above that. So I can't move. Looks like I can't move until it gets backed up. Well, you're never moving. If you're thinking about going to three, there's a distinct possibility that will never happen again. But if you look at where it is now and you really want to move, it's your thing that you want to do. Well, then, what's that phrase that people in real estate use? Date the rate. Date the rate. You don't have to stay married to it forever. You can bring it down later, but make sure that it is inside of the parameters.

[OG]

Gonna work in the budget.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Yeah. Of the entire budget first. I think what this year also proves is trying to prognosticate where rates are going, because everybody thought, man, we're going even lower, we're going even low. We're going even lower. Until we weren't. I think playing that game is a dangerous activity too. Guessing what's going to happen next.

[OG]

I mean, when should you invest money? When you have money to invest, when should you borrow money? When you need to borrow money.

[Doug]

Wow.

[OG]

It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I know.

[Doug]

He's like a philosopher king.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

That's a hot take, dog.

[OG]

She engraved that stuff in, like, a cave somewhere and wow, 50 years. I'll be like, wow, they wrote this. And, like, we'll just translate it to, like, Latin and, like, carve it in some cave. They'll be like, I don't know who this OG guy is, but Damn, was he smart.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

We got to make a graphic and put that on the Internet. Found in. Oh, geez, man cave. We'll call it from the. From the Man Cave. Yeah. Great work as always by Veronica and Ben. We will link to it on our show Notes page atStack of Benjamin.com. we, Doug, have this great segment we call the Back Porch. And I think we need to briefly go out on the back porch and see what's going out in our wonderful Stacky Benjamin's community.

[Doug]

You know, Joe, lately out in the basement, Gertrude's asked a few times for people to brag about what they're doing. And two caught my eye, by the way. We don't get enough. Gertrude doesn't get enough responses to these because we know that all you guys are doing some pretty cool stuff out there, whether it's directly related to sort of financial independence or not. We just want to know what you're doing and what cool. Because you can inspire somebody. Like Rob inspired me. He apparently, under the auspices under this sham veil of financial independence, took a trip through the Netherlands and Belgium with 37 of his closest friends. But I was saving money. I'm sure we got group discount rates or something, but. Sounds very, very cool, Rob. That sounded like a great trip. And then Stacker Nikki took a class to learn how to. And I don't. I don't know any of the words in the sentence after this. This is. Maybe somebody out there can help me. She took a class to learn how to inoculate logs to grow shit aches. What came?

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Shiitakes.

[Doug]

Okay, I don't know what that word is either. Came home and got five logs from a recently downed tree and worked some magic. She'll be stacking shit aches in about eight shiitakes. Shiitakes, okay. Whatever those are, she's stacking them.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Fantastic mushrooms.

[Doug]

Waiting 18 months. Oh, that's why I don't know what they are. They're shrooms. Yes, but I mean that's. I mean that's something to brag about. She's sort of long term investing in logs. Maybe that's a euphemism for something I don't. She can't be talking about real logs, right?

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Talk about growing shrooms that grow into Amsterdam. That tells you all you need to know about stacking Benjamin, right there. That's our community. Yeah. Let us know what you're doing. Tell us what's going on. If you're a creator, go in there and tell us what your latest thing is. We might even base our Friday roundtable on it. We've been known to do that before, so jump on it. Stacky Benjamins.com basement gets you there. Of course, we have our bad groups, our Benjamin's After Dark groups around the country stacking Benjamin bad links for all these in our Show Notes page. Thank you everybody for hanging out with us. Thank you to Mrs. Dow Jones Haley Sachs for joining us today. Fantastic fun. We'll see everybody on Friday where comedian Roseanne Dunkles is going to join us and our Roundtable festivities. We're talking about why you might not want to invest like the 1%. We hear that advertisement all the time. Invest like the 1%. Talk about why you might not want to do that. Coming up on Friday. Doug, what should be on our takeaway list?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from Mrs. Dow Jones Haley Sachs. Want to be a future millionaire? Stop trying to get rich quick and master the basics. It's not that hard and the odds are incredibly low that you'll mess things up so much you go backwards. Second, more mortgages. Remember, marry the property, but date the rate. Sounds kind of salty, huh? If rates lower in the future, you can refinance and lower your debt obligation. That said, don't be so excited to marry the rate that you have to divorce the property later. You won't be allowed to visit every other weekend. Nobody wants that painful separation. But the big lesson. Speaking of what nobody wants, somebody needs to share with Joe's mom that nobody wants lima beans. Nobody mad. They're gross, they're overrated, and only minimally nutritious. Fight me on this if you like lima beans. I'm fairly sure you hate life. Thanks to Haley Sachs, aka Mrs. Dow Jones, for joining us today. If you know you're gonna buy it, grab your highlighter and head to MrsDowJones.com where Haley has a bunch of tools to help you dig in easier. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] this show is the property of SP Podcast, LLC, Copyright 2026, and is created by Josal Sehai. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello and oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advantage of advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I was chatting with my cousin who lives in Indianapolis, and, you know, a couple weeks ago they had a cold snap like Doug in northern Michigan. You guys got like another burst of winter. We did winter in April.

[Doug]

We did. Always happens.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Also, Jesse Kramer sent us a photo of life in Rochester. He's like, it was 80 and now it's back. But they had just thrown away an old suitcase, he and his lovely spouse. And as they were doing some attic cleaning, and he said he went out there with the garbage the next day, and there in the suitcase, three baby foxes.

[Doug]

Whoa. Yeah, that's wild.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

So he calls animal control because they live. They live in a really small town. So it's not inconceivable that there would be a fox there, but not usually where you'd find a fox. So he calls animal control, and animal control asked him, said, are the foxes moving? You know, because it's so cold? And he said, well, I don't know if they're moving, but that would explain the suitcase.

[Doug]

Damn it, Joe. I'm just getting ready to go into all I know about foxes and their kits, by the way. They're not baby foxes or kits. And it's really unusual that the mama fox would have done that because she would have set up her den a long time ago. And why I didn't see that coming is infuriating.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I thought I set that up pretty well.

[Doug]

You did. You got it.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Doug, what movies have you seen? What movies have you seen?

[Doug]

Well, I've been watching a lot of shows lately. Not as many movies, obviously, like the rest of the world. Finished the Pit recently. Man, is that a good show. It's just so well put together.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I love. As you guys know, I have a lot of friends who work in healthcare. And there I was like, that would be the longest shift ever.

[OG]

Like ER 2.0. Pass.

[Doug]

It's exactly that. But it's still really well done. The writing is great. It engages it.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Like one day, one 24 hour period.

[Doug]

It's one 15 hour shift every. It's sort of a real time.

[OG]

Does it have the, like, the sex and drama like Grey's Anatomy? Because then I'm well interested.

[Doug]

There's. There is some nudity.

[OG]

Okay.

[Doug]

In the way you're hoping for, but there definitely is nudity.

[OG]

I don't watch Grey's Anatomy for the sex. I watch it for the articles. You don't even know what to do with that, do you, Doug? You're like, that is. That was. That was almost as well done as the Fox joke.

[Doug]

Watch it for the articles.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Are you really watching Love on the Spectrum?

[Doug]

Yeah. You got a problem with that?

[OG]

Doug watches all sort of tv.

[Doug]

Dude, I cover the. I cover the Spectrum.

[OG]

He knows everything about any Bachelor or Bachelorette season.

[Doug]

No, we stopped that because that's ridiculous now. We stopped.

[OG]

Okay, now it's ridiculous. By the way, Joe, it finally just got ridiculous.

[Doug]

Yes.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I never thought that show was ridiculous until Doug just figured until recently, until

[Doug]

they cast the woman from Real Housewives of Salt, Mormon Housewives or whatever it

[OG]

was so literally the last season. So Doug has watched every season up until the most recent, recent one. Now it's gone too far.

[Doug]

Many seasons. We actually. We actually peeled off from that a couple years ago. I think we finally, finally aged out of it. But we do watch a lot of varied stuff, and I'm proud of that. I got to tell you, Love on the Spectrum is some of the sweetest, nicest feelgood television you're going to watch. It is so nice.

[OG]

I don't know anything about it. I said it's white trash, but I don't really know.

[Doug]

It's not at all. No, these are. These are, I'll say, young adults, early 20s, generally, sometimes a little older, who are pretty solidly on the spectrum. And their opportunities for finding romantic partners are very different than the rest of the world. And watching them find love is. And how they interact with each other and just how pure they are is really heartwarming. And I would recommend is just a nice, nice thing to watch. And each season they'll have. I think there's been three seasons, and they'll have maybe five or six different people. And it's just.

[OG]

How does this rank in the continuum of. So what is this, Nate? What is this show called?

[Doug]

Love.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Love on the Spectrum.

[OG]

Love on the Spectrum versus Love Island. Which one.

[Doug]

Which one is more feel where? Well, depends on long term feel good

[Joe Sal Sehai]

or short term feel good.

[OG]

Where is it on that. On that spectrum.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

What is more short term feel good? What is more long term feel good? Yeah.

[Doug]

Yeah. One you feel good about watching and the other you don't.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

You feel a little dirty. A little dirty.

[Doug]

Feel a lot dirty watching Love Island.

[OG]

I need to be in your world that has time to watch, like, network.

[Doug]

Just stay up later, tv. Just stay up later, grandpa. I've got a good list here. Here's another thing that's definitely on the. On the other side of wholesomeness which is DTF St. Louis.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

What's DTF stand for?

[Doug]

I'm not. Can I say it?

[OG]

Let's not tell him, Doug. Let's. Let's just. Let's think of something down to the fairway. Oh, it's about French fries.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Oh, yeah.

[OG]

He's got to, like, ask a McDonald's person if they're DTF. I'm. Have a Big Mac. And are. Are you DTF down to eat French fries?

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Nope. I get it now. I get it. Thank you. Thank you.

[Doug]

But that show, which is Jason Baitman, and we've talked about this recently on the show, but we finished it. And you got to have an open mind. You definitely do, but it's very well done.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Got to have an open mind.

[Doug]

You definitely do. It's. You know, it's not for everybody.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Speaking of not for everybody, Cheryl picked a film, and we lost my dad about a year and a half ago, almost two years ago now. My dad was known as manly man, except he loved watching Hallmark movies. Like, my dad would sit and watch that same formula over and over and over, and I swear to God, I'm his kid, because Cheryl's like, we're gonna go see Yumi in Tuscany. And you. Me in Tuscany. Is. It is travel porn. So if you think that the Tuscan countryside is beautiful, like I do, every time the theater was empty, except Cheryl and I and two other people. And every time it would give you that sweeping shot of the countryside, I would just yell, shut up. Just. Just shut up. Because it was.

[Doug]

Why would you do that?

[Joe Sal Sehai]

So beautiful. Just take my wallet.

[Doug]

Now, isn't it illegal to yell things out in a empty movie theater?

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Yeah, maybe. I don't know. But it was the solid six and a half that you're looking for from a romantic comedy. And then last weekend, we went to the indie theater, and we watched this cool movie called Mile and Kicks, which is about a woman who's a young film critic. What's. What's the famous movie about? The. The guy that goes. Cameron Crow movie, where the guy goes. And he's the. The young film critic following the. Following the band.

[Doug]

Well, he's the Rolling Stone writer. That's.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Yes.

[Doug]

That. He's a film critic.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Yes. The Rolling Stone. Well, same thing.

[Doug]

I think you're talking about Almost Famous.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

I am. So if you like the movie Almost Famous, you. You take this young woman who lives in Toronto. It's a Canadian movie. And she. Around 2011, when bands like Arcade Fire are really lighting up the Canadian music scene in Montreal. Lots of bands. Like it was the place to move if you are looking for the Canadian music scene. So she had written some for Spin, she'd written for a few other music magazines, music online sites. She goes to Montreal and she just makes a series of bad decisions. Falls in love with band members from some of these bands, Learns a lot of lessons. But if you think about the unevenness of an indie film, I think you go in with the right expectation. Incredibly uneven movie, but. But, man, the payoff's worth it.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe Sal Sehai]

Mile End Kicks, if you like. Almost Famous, I think is a good modern day. I don't want to say redo because it's a different film, but same vibe.

[Doug]

Okay.