Outsmarting Unintended Consequences: How Good Money Moves Don’t Go as Planned (SB1731)

Summary

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The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode SB1731: Outsmarting Unintended Consequences: How Good Money Moves Don’t Go as Planned

Release Date: September 5, 2025
Host: Joe Saul-Sehy
Panelists: OG (Other Guy), Paula Pant, Jesse Kramer, Doug
Podcast Description: A light, “card table” conversation about money, financial systems, and the odd twists that occur when good intentions go awry.

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Overview

This episode centers on the theme of unintended consequences in personal finance and work life—how well-meaning financial decisions and established systems can produce surprising or counterproductive results. The crew explores the Chesterton’s Fence principle and applies it to credit scores, budgeting, work culture, and incentive systems, mixing personal stories, listener anecdotes, and plenty of jokes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Chesterton’s Fence & Unintended Consequences

(06:00 - 09:08)

• Defining Chesterton’s Fence (Jesse, 06:32):
  The story of villagers removing a fence (intended to keep wolves out) they didn't understand, leading to catastrophe.

  • “Don’t knock down fences unless you know why they’re there.”
  • Caution: Don’t change a rule/system without understanding its original purpose.

• Application to Money & Life:
  Many financial or work systems exist for reasons not immediately visible; changing them can create unexpected problems.

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2. Credit Scores: "Good Behavior" Gets Penalized?

(12:05 - 20:58)

• Pay Off Debt, Credit Drops (Paula, 12:42):
  Paying off loans may temporarily ding your score due to lack of installment accounts, but the effect is short-lived.

  • “The joy of debt-free freedom is forever… until you get back into debt again.” (Paula, 13:31)
  • Don’t stress unless you imminently need credit.

• Unconventional Income & Credit Access (Joe/Jesse, 14:09 - 16:04):
  Credit scores and limits can unfairly penalize people with irregular income (tips, entrepreneurship, etc.), including those who sell a business and live off investments.

  • “Should we keep debt on our balance sheet to increase our credit score? No…then it starts to incentivize actually bad financial behavior.” (Jesse, 15:18)

• Gaming the System (OG, 17:33): Explains how to “optimally” keep a tiny balance (e.g., $2) for the best score—but questions the value.

  • “The best amount you should owe on a credit card is $2…But to what end?” (OG, 18:48)

• Overemphasis on Credit Scores:
  Many, including OG’s mom, obsess over scores when they have no practical use for credit.

  • “You live in a paid for house…what possibly is the difference between a 730 and 790 credit score…?” (OG, 17:50)

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3. Work Life: The Hidden Cost of "Standardized" Work Hours

(22:05 - 31:22)

• Standardized Schedules: Efficient or Stifling? (Jesse, 22:05):
  Shares Oliver Burkeman’s “4,000 Weeks” insight about Soviet-era attempts to engineer workweeks, often creating misery and social dysfunction.

  • “An overly strict work schedule…had all these negative externalities.” (Jesse, 23:29)

• Synchrony Matters:
  Asynchronous work sounds appealing, but too much flexibility can fracture teamwork and productivity.

  • “If I’m trying to coordinate…everyone’s working different hours, I would struggle. I think…the idea of everyone working asynchronously would actually be bad.” (Jesse, 24:37)

• Work-Life Blend/Integration:
  The panel debates cell phones, “always-on” expectations, and the importance of true downtime.

  • “People often feel they work 60 hours—but tracking, it’s 35–40. They think it’s 60 because they’re thinking about it.” (Paula, 28:24)
  • Blending work and life isn’t always positive: constant device checking can undermine relationships and mental health. (Joe, 31:25)

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4. Budgeting: Why Good Intentions Don’t Always Work

(45:33 - 51:01)

• Revising a Budget (OG, 45:33):
  Changing a budget (e.g., saving more, switching to Roth) without changing behaviors can lead to cash flow or debt issues.

  • “If you don’t change your spending [with an increased savings rate], you’ll end up with debt or a drained cash reserve.”

• Beginners & Overly Strict Budgets (Paula, 47:22):
  Rigid or unrealistic budgets often cause burnout and abandonment.

  • “You make estimates detached from reality…try to force yourself into little boxes and give up.”
  • Solution: Track current behavior and make small, incremental tweaks.

• Too Much Complexity: Split receipts, excessive line items—it’s a recipe for quitting.

  • “If you can, reduce line items to the fewest number necessary…” (Paula, 49:12)
  • Try two-line budgets: what you save and what you spend.

• No Budget? (Jesse, 51:01):
  Ditching budgets when income rises often leads to unconscious overspending.

  • “If there’s no feedback system…spending just creeps up.”

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5. Incentive Systems and Rewards: When Perks Backfire

(51:43 - 56:18)

• Credit Card Reward Chasing (Paula, 51:59):
  The quest for sign-up bonuses often leads to overspending.

  • “Ultimately, the goal isn’t ‘get maximum rewards.’ The goal is spend in a mindful way.”

• Policy Examples (Jesse, 52:55):
  Citing student loans: intending to help people go to college has inflated tuition astronomically; you create new incentives, good and bad.

  • “Show me the incentives and I’ll show you the outcomes.” (Charlie Munger quote echoed)

• Fees and True Value (OG, 54:51):
  Big purchases and rewards: beware convenience fees for credit cards; sometimes “rewards” aren’t worth the price.

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6. General Principles & Takeaways

• Think Before Tearing Down Systems:
  The rationale for an old system/rule might not be obvious until it’s gone and the ‘wolves’ are at the door.
• Short-Term Gains, Long-Term Pains:
  Systems designed to help (credit scores, student loans, standardized work hours) can have hidden, adverse side effects.
• Play the Long Game:
  Aim for sustainable habits, not short-term hacks or targets (e.g., credit score manipulation, rewards).
• Measure What Matters:
  Measure behavior for feedback, not to “achieve” a superficial target.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Don’t knock down fences unless you know why they’re there.” — Jesse (06:32)
• “The best amount you should owe on a credit card is $2 … but to what end?” — OG (18:48)
• “Should we keep debt on our balance sheet to increase our credit score? No…then it starts to incentivize actually bad financial behavior.” — Jesse (15:18)
• “If you’re not measuring, if you’re not budgeting at all, if there’s no sort of feedback system, it's really hard to then keep that under control.” — Jesse (51:43)
• “Show me the incentives and I’ll show you the outcomes.” — Jesse quoting Charlie Munger (52:55)
• “Ultimately, the goal isn’t get maximum rewards. The goal is spend in a mindful way.” — Paula (51:59)
• “When you pick up an end of the stick, you got to think about what’s the other end of the stick that you’re picking up.” — Joe (57:22)

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Important Timestamps

| Segment/Topic | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Chesterton’s Fence Explained | 06:00–09:08 | | Credit Scores: Unintended Consequences | 12:05–20:58 | | Work Culture: Scheduling, Burnout & Integration | 22:05–31:22 | | Budgeting Pitfalls & Solutions | 45:33–51:01 | | Credit Card Rewards Backfiring & Policy Incentives | 51:43–56:18 | | Takeaways & Reflections | 56:18–end |

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Language, Tone & Vibe

• Fun, playful, and conversational.
• Frequent gentle ribbing, running gags about big vocabulary, and personal stories.

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Conclusion

The episode offers a humorous but insightful exploration of why “fixing” financial systems or pursuing “good” money habits can often backfire if you don’t pause to consider the system’s purpose and all downstream effects. The hosts encourage a thoughtful, measured approach—question everything, measure genuine progress, and never let the “target” become more important than the reason behind the target.

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Listen to the Stacking Benjamins Show for more fun, wisdom, and practical finance tips—without taking life (or your credit score) too seriously.

Transcript

[Joe]

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[Paula]

Oh, I just can't get these numbers to add up.

[OG]

Like we're never going to get out of this hole.

[Paula]

Credit card debt. Does it ever end?

[OG]

Maybe I can help. We sure could use it.

[Paula]

We've tried debt consolidation companies.

[OG]

We've even taken out loans to help make payments.

[Joe]

Did you know millions of Americans live.

[Doug]

With debt they cannot control?

[Joe]

That's why I developed this unique new.

[OG]

Program for managing your debt.

[Joe]

It's called don't buy stuff you cannot afford.

[Doug]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. And you finally pay off a credit card and your credit score drops. What the heck? Today we're all about unintended consequences in money and work life systems like credit scores. How do you work around the downsides? Plus, the race is tightening. We'll pause halfway through today's discussion to see if Jesse and Paula can continue to surge in our year long trivia contest. And now here comes a guy who should think more about the unintended consequences of ordering another Creamy Clown or Peach Fuzz Dream. From Moe's Ice Cream Shop. It's Jo Sal. Si. I bet you that's what you ordered.

[Joe]

Peach Fuzz Dream.

[Doug]

I mean you always talk about the Creamy Clown all the time. I know what you love those.

[Joe]

Do you know how we've been trying to avoid food waste in. I did throw a fuzzy taco yesterday that it's sitting in there for maybe about nine days. Hey, everybody in that Growth start. Welcome back to Friday on the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe Salsihai and that's my neighbor Doug. We're about ready to unleash the Kraken, as it were, on unintended consequences. And let's meet the Kraken on this episode. Let's get cracking on releasing the. Crack it.

[Jesse]

On this episode.

[Joe]

First of all, is the guy who is right across the card table from me. Mr. OG is here. How are you, brother?

[OG]

Oh, I'm just so good. I'm so good on a Monday.

[Joe]

I feel on Monday, it's Friday. Is it bad when you get Friday?

[OG]

Whatever day it is, it feels like a damn Monday is what it feels like. But no, it's good. I had a great bicycle ride this morning, so I got all the positive endorphins feel it.

[Joe]

Isn't that great. I love that. I don't know if you get the same thing on the bicycle, but when I run, I get this runner's high, like maybe 20, 25 minutes after I'm done. It's just this bam.

[OG]

Let me tell you something. You would love that. Both of you guys would love this. So it's. When I say bicycle, it's really. I mean, it's a bicycle.

[Joe]

It's really more like a tricycle.

[OG]

No, no, no, no, no. There's like eight people and you all pedal, but there's a bar in the middle and then there's a guy who steers. And at the end of these, like 10 miles, you're like, awesome. I feel great. I think you guys would like it.

[Joe]

Wouldn't it be fun to do a Stacking Benjamin's meetup where we just rent one of those OG and then we have some stackers join us and we.

[OG]

I mean, just again, I leave at 8am every morning out of my house. It's yes. All the neighborhood dads meet up.

[Joe]

And the guy who is the peach dream of this podcast, I don't know. Mr. Jesse Kramer's here. How are you, dude?

[Jesse]

I'm doing well, Joe. I was following along. I was thinking about as OG was telling the story. I went for a jog a few months ago through. And I went through a local park and there was a Grateful Dead cover band playing. So I too had a runner's high on that particular jog.

[OG]

Just like drinking beer when you ride your bike. It's great.

[Jesse]

Pretty much. I mean, it was an odiferous park.

[OG]

Whoa.

[Jesse]

And yeah, we're going big. We're going big on some of the vocabulary here today.

[Joe]

Odiferous.

[Jesse]

Odiferous.

[Joe]

I got to. I got to leave that kind of talk at home. My friend and the woman who doesn't like doing any odiferous activities. I'm trying to get the segue ball of pant.

[Paula]

The scent of that segue was just.

[Joe]

But you don't like to run. Do you like being sweaty?

[Paula]

I do like a good cardio workout, but I like lower impact cardio workouts, so I like the elliptical machine. I don't. I actually don't mind the StairMaster or just like, lifting weights, but like lifting kind of at a lower level so that it's sort of a cardio lift.

[Joe]

Like, where you're lifting like, 8 to 12 ounces at a time.

[Paula]

That. Technically a weight.

[Joe]

That is a weight.

[Paula]

Technically a weight, yeah.

[Joe]

And it gets lighter. The. The more you do it. The more you make that motion. The. The lighter.

[Paula]

Is that an actual workout strategy? It's called, like, the. The triangle or something. I don't know.

[Joe]

Like. Like decreasing the pyramid over time.

[Paula]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Yeah. It's a thing. And we just made it a thing. I don't know. Speaking of a thing, guys, we are going to talk about something really big, which is this idea of the Chesterton fence. I found this on Apex Money this morning as we record, and I thought, what an interesting concept, because I can't tell you how many times I've run into this where there's. Well, let. Let's explain what the Chesterton's fence is all about. Mr. Kramer, do you mind taking center stage? What is this Chesterton's fence thing all about?

[Jesse]

Well, I. I've read the Apex Money article, and I didn't see this example highlighted. But the example that I remember learning about when. When someone first told me about it is, you know, the apocryphal tale of someone comes to a village, and they say, why the heck is this fence here? There's no purpose to it all it is. It's. It's blocking my view to that beautiful field. And, you know, I don't. I don't get why it's there. It's blocking the pathway. And so they knock the fence down, and then the wolves come down from the mountain and attack the village. And it's like, oh, of course, after the fact, you learned that the fence was there for a purpose. It's just that maybe the fence was actually so effective at its purpose, you couldn't understand why it was there in the first place. And the takeaway is, you know, don't knock down fences unless you Know why they're there, or maybe more applicable to our lives, you know, don't change a rule, don't change a system, don't change the way you're doing something or the way you've inherited doing something until you understand why people before you made that decision in the first place.

[Joe]

How many times have we done something like that where you created some new system and, you know, all of a sudden you're like, oops.

[Doug]

Every time I wander on foot from village to village, I think of this. I'm like, how great were those days when we could just merrily wander through the countryside?

[Joe]

Well, except for the wolves.

[OG]

Yeah, Just stay inside the fence.

[Joe]

Jesse, in that story, was that the first uttering of the words my bad, like the person that tore the fence down?

[Jesse]

Exactly. Probably. Ye bad. Maybe it might have been a couple centuries ago, you know.

[Joe]

Now, Ochi, while you get the concept, you told us backstage before we started recording, you'd never heard of this before.

[OG]

Yeah, I'm very uncultured. So I. I did not. I did not learn about wolves or fences that protect villages from wolves until just. Just today, as a matter of fact.

[Joe]

But you did ask your electronic companion about it.

[OG]

I. Well, I mean, yeah. Who doesn't use ChatGPT to sound, you know, like you maybe know.

[Joe]

And what did ChatGPT tell you about Chesterton's fence?

[OG]

I mean, it used a similar example, but didn't involve wolves. It just said, walk right through a village and you see a fence and you want to tear it down because it seems stupid, but it's be there for a reason, and you should wait and find out what. What other people's reasons are.

[Joe]

Well, this has a lot to do with money. We're going to talk about in your financial life, but also in your work life, in your daily life. The problem of these unintended consequences, whether we keep something or we get rid of it sometimes in these systems. Now, we're not going to. We're not gonna be able to get rid of these. And I know, panel, the one thing you're going to want to do is go, oh, yeah, let's Chesterton's fences.

[OG]

Oh, I'm tearing fences down today.

[Joe]

What if we got rid of this? We're not going to talk big picture. We're going to talk about how do you work around it, Right? How do you work around these problems? So we'll go over a couple big ones, then we'll go over a few lightning round ones, and then at the end, we're going to talk very, very personal finance like in your, in your own life if you create systems in some of these really micro areas. So we'll start kind of big picture and end with much smaller picture but probably some big impact stuff. So grab a piece of paper, get ready to go. And while you're doing that, we have a couple of sponsors to make sure we can keep on keeping on. So we're going to hear from them. And then Paula, Jesse, Og, Doug and I, we're talking about Chesterton's Fence and credit scores to start it off. This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. With rising housing prices and steeper mortgage rates, we know homeownership may seem too expensive to be achievable. But that's why we offer a Home Buyer's Choice Loan that can open the door to affordable homeownership. Our Home Buyer's Choice Loan has no down payment options available, which means you don't need to wait years to save money. And with our no refi rate drop, you might be able to lower your rate in the future without refinancing. Plus, while most lenders require borrowers to purchase private mortgage insurance unless they can make a 20% down payment, we don't require PMI. Finally, we offer fixed payments, so your monthly payment will always be the same. So if you're looking for your first home or your next home, you can open the door with a Navy Federal Homebuyer's Choice loan. Visit navy federal.org to learn how you can achieve homeownership. Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission. Terms and conditions apply. Equal housing lender loans subject to approval and eligibility requirements. Learn more@navy federal.org hey business owners, we.

[Paula]

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[Joe]

We record this live on YouTube and I'd like to say a B.O. big, big good day to our friends hanging out with us. We got Billy who said we live. Dan from Baltimore is here in Zaniac hanging out with us saying hello. Jack from Leesburg, Virginia. Thanks for hanging out. B is back. Great that you're back with US And Radioactive Mike, longtime listener, first time watcher. Wow, I thought Doug was a lot older. You are young and handsome, Doug.

[Doug]

Oh, damn. He just shot to the top of the list.

[Joe]

And fee 30 is here. Daniel is here from OKC K Sands and some others. Lots of great people hanging out with us. If you want to hang out with us, we generally record these on Monday afternoon. So come say hello. All right, let's dive into this, guys. Let's start off with credit scores because as Doug said in the open, Paula, we have these issues with credit scores. You know, initially it was meant to level the playing field, right? But you and I know what happens when you get debt freedom. You get debt freedom. All of a sudden your credit score goes down. Like, what the hell?

[Paula]

Well, yeah, they want to see installment loans in particular on your credit report. And when you don't have those that can temporarily ding your report. But there is good news. One is that the little drop is only temporary. The fact that you're not going to miss any missed payments because you don't have any payments that's going to count in your favor. The average account age. If you've got an old credit card that you can keep open, just keep it open, even if you never use it or put like one recurring thing on it that you auto pay every month, like a magazine subscription or a what? I guess nobody subscribes to magazines anymore.

[Joe]

I was like, wow, I want my 1995 back. Ma.

[OG]

What, what card we use the Time magazine subscription on? I know the New Yorkers on the Amex. Which one's National Geographic?

[Paula]

So basically that the ding is temporary. The joy of debt free freedom is forever until you get back into debt again.

[Joe]

But is that until you get back into debt and then the circle of life continues. But Paula, sticking with you, I mean, is that a, is that a reason the fact your credit score goes down to jump through those hoops that you're talking about?

[Paula]

I think the first question is, do you need your credit score in any imminent time? Like are you going to be applying for an apartment or you're going to be buying a home soon? Are you going to be buying a car with financing soon? You know, if you don't think that you're actually going to need your credit score for a little while, then. And why are you paying attention to it?

[Joe]

Jesse? You know, there's also these barriers for people that have unconventional income, right? I mean, if you're getting income that's not paid out in traditional ways, we're going to talk about Tipping culture later. So looking at you waiters, this makes credit scores for them really hard too.

[Jesse]

Can you say that again, Joe? I'm, I'll try to follow you.

[Joe]

Well, people that have unconventional income, I mean, let's talk about unintended consequences, right. The goal is to level the playing field. Yet if you have income from unconventional sources, right, like tips as an example, you could end up with income streams that maybe look smaller than they are. I know. I have clients that are entrepreneurs, clients that are farmers that get to write off a bunch of stuff against their income. And so because of that, their income stream looks small, which means that credit card companies aren't going to give them a big line of credit.

[Jesse]

I see what you're saying. Yeah, like credit limits. Like, there's a story of a creator in our space, Jeremy Schneider, selling a business for multi million dollars, but then having no income for a few years because he was just living off of his nest egg. And when he went to apply for a mortgage, it was denied because they're like, well, you're not earning any money. And he's like, yeah, I know.

[Joe]

Just happened to my cousin.

[Jesse]

And you know, as we were talking about the credit scores themselves and now the credit limits, especially on the credit scores things. And not to introduce a whole nother like so and so's principle into this conversation, but there's this idea out there called Goodhart's law. It doesn't really matter what the title of it is, but it's that when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. And the whole point of a credit score isn't necessarily to be the person with the highest credit score possible. Instead, the thing we want, the target, should be eliminating your, your bad debt. So anyway, so insofar as, like, should we keep debt on our balance sheet in order to increase our credit score? Well, no, we shouldn't turn the credit score into a target in and of itself because then it starts to lose its meaning and actually will kind of incentivize us to do some actually bad financial behavior.

[Joe]

Well, let's talk about that og about what Jesse brought up about people in retirement, right? You retire, you let go of the job, and now you want to take out a loan for whatever reason. The credit agencies go, yeah, no, thank you.

[OG]

Yeah, I mean, your credit score has nothing to do with your income. And as it relates to borrowing money, if you have assets, you can do it. It's not hard to do. You just have to find a place that will kind of work through the calculation on that. And in most cases, take the person that has the $5 million nest egg but no income, and they want to qualify for a mortgage, a beach house, and it's going to be $5,000 a month mortgage payment. The bank will want to see you take out money from your investment accounts and deposit it into your checking account on a monthly basis and go, oh, look, magically you have income. Like, it's really, really, really quite stupid how they think through all this. And obviously there's other sources of financing too. If you have $5 million in the bank or in your investment accounts, you just borrow the money from Schwab, they'll give it to you in five seconds without doing any sort of, you know.

[Joe]

Is that what Jeremy ended up doing? Jesse?

[Jesse]

To be honest, I don't know, like an asset, a pledged line of assets kind of thing?

[OG]

Yeah, an asset back loan he might have. I mean, that's super common. But I think from a credit score standpoint, kind of where we start with this, like Jesse was saying, it's always interesting to me. I don't think my mom will be mad about me talking about this, but she, she does that. She'll say, well, I can't pay off my credit card because the.

[Joe]

By the way, my favorite lines I always start with, I don't think they'll be mad about me talking about this publicly.

[OG]

Yeah, I don't think so. She might, but, you know, I'll deal with that at Christmas, you know, again, I listened to this show back in September. You threw me under the bus.

[Joe]

Oh, yeah. Just like last time.

[OG]

And she'll say that. And she's, you know, mom's smart, but like, for some reason it's in her soul that she has to have a high credit score. And I'm like, for what? You live in a paid for house. You drive a paid for car. That's relatively recent new. What possibly is the difference between a 7:30 credit score and a 790 credit score, other than the goal is the number Right. There's no benefit in practicality between those two thresholds if you're not borrowing money. And if you're going to borrow money, there's a game that you can play to try to manipulate that number. You can just read about how to do this. But it's really quite crazy. The best amount of money that you should owe on a credit card is $2, because if you owe zero, that's awful because now you don't know how to manage credit despite managing it quite perfectly. And if you owe too much, then you don't know how to manage credit. But apparently $2 is the magic number. So if you're trying to qualify for a, you know, get your credit score to bump up, pay all your credit cards off before the statement ends and leave a $2 balance so that your statement balance is $2, that'll be the number that reports to the credit bureau.

[Joe]

It's so ridiculous.

[OG]

You're an amazing credit score so you can game the system. But I would submit to you. To what end? Like, what's the point? Like Jesse said, I'd rather be debt free and have a 720 credit score. And then have the bank be like, well, we don't know if you know how to manage debt correctly, you only have a 700 credit score. And that's how all bankers sound.

[Joe]

By the way.

[Doug]

I love all of his voices so far in this little bit. His, his air quotes voice is, is really awesome. And now his banker voice sounds like, you know, like grumpy cigar.

[OG]

He's like, oh, I don't know if I could lend you the money there, young man. You don't know how to manage debt. Like quite the contary, sir. I actually have no debt. I have managed it perfectly.

[Joe]

Sound design brought to you by og.

[OG]

I don't know what to say about that anymore.

[Joe]

But doesn't this whole credit score thing, Paula, I mean, doesn't this encourage people to just, you know, do these short term borrowing schemes like OG's talking about just to, just to build a credit score? And don't get me wrong, maybe if you're 25, that's a great idea.

[Paula]

The subset of people who are paying attention closely enough to really try to game the system is I think when you look at the broader society, a very, very narrow subset of the population, most people are a little bit intimidated by credit scores, don't quite know how they work, I think overvalue the importance of them. And I'm not saying they're not important. I think a lot of people are intimidated by the notion of a credit score. And that's why to that great quote that Jesse had, you know, that's why the measure becomes the target is because we're sort of taught like, here's this big scary amorphous score that determines everything from your insurance rates to your job to whether or not you can get a mortgage. But the reality of it is, as everyone else has been saying, most of the time it's not going to matter. And particularly at the margins of what you can do. The difference between a 760 versus a 780 is really not going to make or break your life.

[Joe]

I love what our shared engineer for your podcast of mine, Steve Stewart, says about this. He goes, my goal is to not worry about my credit score. That's like a long term goal. You know, it might not be something you could do short term, but long term, that's what you're hoping for. By the way, Paula, we've got some real magazine subscribers here listening. Dan from Baltimore says last magazine I subscribed to is Nintendo Power. And I've met Dan and Dan, without saying you're old, I will say that must have been a long time ago. All right, let's move on to another topic because we talk about personal finance and work life, right? And work Life alignment on this show. Let's go to work Life alignment. This idea of standardized work hours, right, which has been challenged I think a lot, especially since COVID is, is one thing. Jesse, let's start with you on this one. Because, you know, part of the problem with standardized work hours I feel is, is that it can stifle productivity. Like if I get an idea at 8 o' clock at night, but the shift ends at 5, well then I'm maybe going to forget that idea.

[Jesse]

I think this is a really good example. And very coincidentally, and I kind of stumbled into this one, I'm listening to this book right now, 4000 weeks by Oliver Berkman.

[Joe]

Oh yeah, yeah, we had Oliver on.

[OG]

Yeah, it's a cool book.

[Jesse]

It's not. Hoji's got it behind him. Do you want to grab it and show it for the YouTube audience? Hoji, should we see the COVID And at this part in the book, Berkman is talking about the Soviet some of the Soviet efficiency time management methods that they were trying to implement societally, one of which was literally changing the way time worked. So you go from a seven day week down to a five day week. So now you only have a five day week. So you, you know, you had five colors, whatever, red, blue, yellow, green and orange. And every citizen is on one of those five teams. And depending on which team or color you're on, here are the four days that you work and here's your one day off. So on the one hand, I guess that is a very standardized work week. But the whole point was 20% of each of the population had each of the one of the five days off. And so like, you know, if we were trying to record this podcast right now, but we weren't on the same five days, like we couldn't do it. And so his point was that an overly strict work schedule, or just depending how you want to think about it, having that different people working at different times had all these negative externalities that people weren't thinking of. So I don't know, could I think of some negative externalities of just having a completely free flowing work schedule such that.

[Joe]

Are you saying, though, are you saying, Jesse, that'd be better if we all cycled together? Like, things would go better?

[Doug]

I knew it. I knew it.

[Jesse]

I don't want to be overly neutral here and abstentious. I'm just trying to toe the line where I say. Oh, God.

[Joe]

She.

[Jesse]

She figured it out, Doug.

[Doug]

What? She figured what out?

[Jesse]

I just heard Paula whisper obstacious.

[Paula]

Yeah, what about it?

[Doug]

Why did Paula, why did you whisper it? Did you not know what it means?

[Paula]

Odiferous. Abstentious.

[OG]

Hey, hey. You said amorphous.

[Paula]

Oh, did I? Wow.

[OG]

You did.

[Joe]

You did. Huh?

[OG]

I'm just gonna use the gas station words, guys. So I'm the everman here.

[Doug]

Abstent just means. And I don't know if this is what you were going for, Jesse, or not. I don't know if it really fits in your context, your sentence, but were you being like aggressively neutral, like strongly neutral about something?

[Jesse]

I was trying to not be right. I was trying to not be strongly neutral. I was trying to avoid being abstentious.

[Joe]

I'm sorry. We can just start getting stuff done on this podcast and hit the brakes on that very quickly. Where were we going on this, Jesse?

[OG]

So lost right now. So are we all supposed to work the same days or we're not Exactly.

[Jesse]

Here's my point. I think we are supposed to work same days because if I get caught in a situation where I'm trying to coordinate with my colleagues to get something done and everyone's working different hours, I. I would struggle in that situation. So I actually think the idea of having everybody working asynchronously would. There's a real word. I think having everyone work asynchronously would actually be bad. Not at the gas station. O.G. sorry about that.

[OG]

I'm just keeping a tally.

[Joe]

Well, and I also think. I also think OG that, you know, the collaboration you get when you all work the same hours is positive and also a thing that you and I learned at Strategic Coach. And there was a long time when I did a 9 to 5. I don't think you've done much 9 to 5. But still there's this idea that you've learned really well. Leaving work at work becomes so valuable to you, being more productive when you are at work.

[OG]

It takes a village to pull all this off, right? I mean, you can't be the Lone Ranger at your company. That's like, I shut down at 5. See you guys. And everybody else is staying late. And I mean, different industries. You can't tell the doctors at the hospital like, hey, so shift ends at 5, and they're like, well, we were going to replace all of your liver, but we only got half done, so see ya. We'll be back tomorrow at 9. You know, I mean, like, it just. There's some things that you have to be very asynchronous about. Did I do that right?

[Jesse]

You want to be synchronous about those ones, right?

[OG]

Synchronous. Okay.

[Joe]

So close.

[OG]

So close. But in terms of teams and that sort of thing, there's a bunch of value. And this is the debate that's going on right now, right between go back to work at work, or can we work at home still? Do we still get the productivity? Do we still get the teamwork? Do we still get the camaraderie, the idea exchange that goes on at the water cooler, figuratively speaking. And I think it's not really measurable in terms of being able to point out exactly how valuable that is. I just think anecdotally that being around other people will spur more creativity if you're in that type of world, that you need to have that creativity to solve problems. In our company and in stacking Benjamin's, we don't really mandate a certain amount of time. We have work that needs to get done, and we just expect that it gets done. You know what I mean? So I think it's really dependent on where you are and what's going on in what the task is in your role and then also within your company. I mean, like I said, you can't. You can't be the Lone Ranger and just be like, you know, screw you guys. I work these hours and I can't ever be bothered to help on this big project, you know, and also you don't want to be the person that's like, where is Everybody? It's only 9:45. You know, like, that doesn't work either, you know, if. If you're the only one doing that.

[Joe]

So I think it does depend on the type of work a ton, but.

[OG]

Also choose your own adventure.

[Joe]

Yeah, but I think the bigger thing, Paula, for me is, you know, we see people get so burnout now. And, and you read about people getting burnt out and people leaving jobs more quickly because they feel like they're getting just, you know, they're burning both ends of the candle and the boss still isn't happy. Right. I feel like there's this no time off button that we can hit, which, which I think creates burnout.

[Paula]

Sure, there's the objective element of hours worked, but there's also the, the more subjective what's lingering on our brain even when we're not working? Are we ruminating about something when we're taking a shower, when we're cooking dinner? And oftentimes people can feel as though there are actually time. Time use surveys that have documented this. People often feel that they're working more than they actually are because they're thinking about work so much. And there are a lot of people who will estimate that they work 60 hours a week. But then when they actually are asked to track their time in 15 minute increments.

[OG]

This week, I didn't.

[Paula]

Yeah, it's like 35 hours or, you know, 40 hours. But they think it's 60 because of the fact that they're thinking about it.

[OG]

But to be fair, you know, if you've got like a long commute or something like that, it's really tough to say, well, that's not work, when in reality, like, you are required to commit to that.

[Paula]

Yeah, no, that's. That's not what the time use surveys were finding, though. So the time use surveys, and Laura Vanderkam has really fantastic research that's published around this, asked subjects to track their time in 15 minute increments. Everything ranging from how much time they spent, you know, getting dressed, folding laundry, cooking, commuting.

[OG]

Zero, zero.

[Paula]

You know, literally every single thing.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Paula]

Sitting on the toilet for far too long because they ate spicy food the night before. Right. Like all of that is documented in these surveys.

[Joe]

Again, reading magazines, Paula.

[Paula]

Exactly.

[Joe]

They're reading Nintendo Power.

[Paula]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Paula]

Trying to cancel their subscription to Nintendo Power magazine. Yeah. And she find that there is actually a pretty wide gap between people's perception of their time use and their actual documented time use.

[Joe]

I feel like it's the opposite of our budget. When I used to ask people, like, how much money you think you spend, they would tell me that I'd send them home with the, you know, to track it for a week, their expenses. And they spent way more money than they thought they did in their head. It's exactly the opposite Chris mentioned. It's not work life balance anymore. It's work Life blend. I like what kind of the agreement we came to a few weeks ago when we talked about work life balance, that it truly is alignment. When you're off, you're off, and when you're on, you're on. I think that is important. Our friend Carrie in Chicago says, we started our business. Honey and I worked together in 2011. We decided we have to do work life integration. We're on call 24 7, but we also find ways to be elsewhere and still do what we want. And I think that's the important part.

[Doug]

I remember being at a Tiger game in the early days of blackberries, when everybody, at least in my corporate environment, started carrying blackberries and a guy got on his to respond to an email, I think, and a bunch of people started giving him a hard time about it. And he said, it's this device that enables me to be here at a Tiger game with you right now in an afternoon instead of back at my desk. So that really change my whole perspective on it. Like, you kind of chuckle. But you realize there's another way to think about this is. And it's what I think it was. Chris, you said, just said it's an integration rather than a balance or a blend rather than a balance. It's. Look, it's here whether we want to or want it or not. The. The totally pervasive work is here all the time, 24 hours a day. So rather than trying to fight it and clock out at 5:00 and becoming the pariah of your business, just blend it and realize, okay, I get to go to the hockey game or, you know, go on vacation, but my price is I'm gonna have to look at my phone once in a while. Once in a while. It can't be, you know, all day long while the kids are in the pool, but once in a while, it's just part of that integration.

[Joe]

I'm gonna be on the other side of that, Doug, which is.

[Doug]

I don't think that's why.

[Joe]

Well, I don't think that's healthy. When you look at the use of. The use of your cell phone, how people don't turn it off. And by the way, there's also the annoyance of. And not just what it does scientifically to your brain is the annoyance of when I'm out with you, and I'm not talking about you, me specifically, but when I'm out with you and you keep going to your freaking phone every 30 seconds to tell me that your phone's more important than I am, don't get me wrong, I don't want to be the most important.

[Doug]

That's exactly the message I was trying to send you, Joe.

[Joe]

It's just, you know, not putting it down. I think is has become this huge disruption. I think bosses are starting to expect it and I don't know. Let's move on to our halftime show which at the end of every first half of a Stacky Benjamin's Friday episode, we have this year long trivia competition and man, is it heating up this year because we have OG with 11 points, Jesse with 10 and a half and Paula poised to make a late season surge at six and a half points. So we have all three contestants that are in it. But we could have a change of leadership today, Doug. This could be, this could be. Everything could change.

[OG]

But at the halfway point, give people what they want.

[Joe]

At the halfway point, we have this question and we need that. Doug, what's today's trivia question?

[Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and I'm sure there were two fun activities on your calendar for this first weekend in September. First, listen to this episode. Check. And the second, celebrate more football as the NFL celebrates their first weekend of a new season. So as they rake in tons of new Benjamins over the next few days, let's dive in back on Today's date in 1906, the first completed legal forward pass happened. How fun far did they throw it? I'll be back right after I talk to Joe's mom about throwing some of the chip dip my way. French onion for the win this football weekend, Doug.

[Joe]

And they talk about like, Oreos, you can't eat just one generally, if you give me. Cheryl saw they had the new orange Oreos out now for Halloween already, like, and for the fall. And she goes, hey, you want to get some of those? I'll go, no, because I will eat them in one sitting. I'll eat the entire damn thing in one sitting.

[Doug]

They just amp up to another level. When you dip those in French onion dip.

[Joe]

French onion dips the same way. I can't do it.

[Doug]

That's what I'm saying. You travel through time if you put Oreos and French onion dip, two of those amazing addictive flavors possible.

[Joe]

It's so delicious.

[Doug]

Just saying be careful.

[Joe]

And football weekend always gives you the excuse. Well, we got to have, you know, we got to have the ruffles and the French onion dip, but we also have to have an answer to this question. Oh, gee, it was way back in 1906. That the first forward completed pass legal. Four completed pass happened in a college game. Actually. How far was it?

[OG]

I feel like I should know the.

[Doug]

Answer where you talk.

[OG]

Oh, gee, I was just sighing.

[Joe]

And by the way, everybody is giving us their answer now that we cautioned our audience not to play. So B says the answer is almost always C.

[OG]

Yeah. I thought Doug said this was an NFL pass.

[Joe]

It was not an NFL pass. It was just the first legal forward pass.

[Doug]

Yes.

[OG]

Why were you talking about the NFL then?

[Joe]

Because it's the first weekend of NFL football this weekend.

[OG]

Interesting.

[Doug]

Stop being so pedantic.

[Paula]

Okay, Pedantic. That's a good one.

[OG]

Mean, awesome. All right.

[Joe]

Five big words in the same episode we've had today. And it's only halftime.

[Doug]

And one of them wasn't real and none of you caught it. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[OG]

So legal forward pass also suggests that there might have been a pass that was illegal first, which there were for.

[Joe]

Many years they had done. They had experimented with different passes, but this one, it was in the.

[OG]

Just randomly, like. No, that's illegal. Sorry.

[Doug]

It's college, right? We all experimented a little bit in college, right?

[Joe]

Yes.

[OG]

Doug, more than others. I'm going to say that back in the day, that football. That football was pretty heavy. I don't know what it was made of. Sheepskin or something. Pig skin. I suppose that makes more sense than sheepskin. Not a long pass. It was a 18 yard pat. I don't know. 18 yard pass.

[Joe]

18 yard.

[OG]

It's going to be like a 99 yard touchdown pass or something like that.

[Joe]

We shall see.

[OG]

Because they figured out how to do something legally.

[Joe]

I don't know, 18 yards. What do you think about that?

[Jesse]

Just a quick clarifying question. And this is just the, the full reception, Doug. I'm just saying, like, this wasn't the ball in the air. This included yards after the catch.

[Joe]

It does, yeah. Sorry. Apparently I'm going by the name Doug's. Guess I got that one, Doug.

[Jesse]

I don't know. It's unfair. We. We agreed, you know, it's not good gamesmanship to do anything too close to.

[OG]

OG but we agree this.

[Jesse]

A couple episodes ago we boxed you in and that was like nobody had any fun with that one except for Paul and I and me and Doug.

[Doug]

So a lot of people had fun with that.

[OG]

So basically everyone had fun and I.

[Joe]

Think the entire listening audience.

[OG]

It's okay. I don't mind. Hey, Jesse, play the game to win.

[Jesse]

Okay?

[OG]

Play the game to win.

[Jesse]

I'm going to go 13 yards.

[Joe]

Jesse says 13 yards.

[OG]

Good number.

[Jesse]

And you're right. B, I am being obtusius. That is exactly correct.

[Joe]

And Julie likes OG's line of thinking, asking halfway during his contemplation. How hard is it to pick a number between 0 and 100? Paula.

[Paula]

Okay, I have a genuine question for which you will make fun of me forever. But if I have this question, what is football? It's close. It's. What is a forward completed pass? It's.

[Joe]

It's where you throw the ball down the field from one player to another player.

[Paula]

That's it. So it's just a, that's it pass.

[Joe]

And catching it means it's completed.

[Paula]

Okay.

[Doug]

Paula's so used to rejecting passes that she. She doesn't really know what a completed pass is.

[Joe]

As we said last week, she's been on a few bad dates.

[Paula]

But. And this happened for the first time in 1906.

[Joe]

1906.

[Paula]

This confuses me. What did they do prior to 1906.

[Joe]

When they first run the ball?

[Doug]

Run the ball?

[Joe]

They just ran the ball.

[Paula]

Wow.

[Doug]

Okay, I have a really fun fact about this after we're done.

[OG]

Or backward passes. You could do those.

[Paula]

Yeah. Backward completed pass. A sideways completed pass.

[OG]

I believe it can only be backward or forward.

[Paula]

Huh. Chess rules don't apply. It can't be like diagonal.

[OG]

That's forward.

[Joe]

Either going to be forward or backward. Diagonal.

[Paula]

Doug's head is hurting. I can see it.

[Doug]

I'm dying over here.

[Paula]

I mean, obviously my answer is going to be either 12 or 19.

[Joe]

It's always good when she starts off with though with what is a pass? Always a good sign.

[Paula]

Because if I have this question, then other listeners are going to have the same question.

[Joe]

Some of them, I think Lenny just got it. Got it right. Hey, Lenny. Lenny says before that it was basically rugby. And this is where the Puritans stuck with the main game and called it rugby. And the other people broke off.

[Doug]

There was a bifurcation in the sporting audience.

[Jesse]

Whoa, look at Mr. Sat over here.

[Joe]

Is that a real word?

[Paula]

Yeah. 12 or 19. 12 or 19. Let's see. If I knew how long a typical pass would be, that would give me some information. But I don't know that. So we'll go with 19.

[Joe]

Paula goes with 19.

[OG]

Play to win.

[Joe]

So we've got Paula with 19 yards, OG with 18 yards, Jesse with 13 yards. Who's right? We'll find out in a minute. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? But with LinkedIn, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers, a network of 130 million of them. In fact, you can even target buyers by job title, industry, company seniority, skills and did I say job title? See how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started at LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply.

[Paula]

The Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack Welchmba to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Joe]

Learn [e-mail] OG, you started this shindig by saying 18 yards, the first completed pass. How you feeling now?

[OG]

I wasn't feeling good at the beginning and I feel less good now.

[Joe]

Less gooder I think it is since we're using all the big words today.

[OG]

Less, more good.

[Joe]

Yes. Jesse, you've got 13 yards.

[OG]

Man.

[Joe]

If it was just a little side route, like 8 yards, 9 yards, just.

[OG]

A little, you know, dump pass, little screen.

[Doug]

Yeah, all the one that Tom Brady specialized in or a Jared Goff pass.

[Joe]

You know, for the most part my.

[Jesse]

Visualization is like a 10 yard pass and then the guy takes one step.

[Joe]

And he's tackled and there he goes. Yeah. And Paula, you've got 19 yards which are definitely confident about with all of your vast football knowledge.

[Paula]

You know, I'm a bit of a football expert.

[Joe]

All right, here we go. We're going to find out if you were an expert or if Jesse or OG are the expert. Is Jesse going to move into first place? Is OG going to pull further ahead? Is Paula going to tighten the race more? Doug, you've got the answer.

[Doug]

Hey there Stackers. I'm Chip Diplover and guy who always knows how to scrape the chip across the bottom to get every last drop. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. As early as 1876, players were expecting experimenting with illegal forward passes, but it was a man named Bradbury Robinson. Damn, that's a good name. I wish. Bradbury at St. Louis University. Who threw the first legal one on Today's date in 1906 against Carroll College. Ah, Carroll College. The Fighting Carolers. Yeah, yeah, you try not tipping those badasses at Christmas time and tell me they don't know how to fight like scalded cats. Earlier in the game, Robinson's first attempt at a forward pass was incomplete, which, according to the 1906 rules, resulted in a turnover. That's right. If the player on the receiving end didn't catch the ball initially, the other team could pick it up and run with it. However, later in the game, Bradbury did complete a touchdown pass to Jack Schneider from 7 more yards than what Jesse guessed, 2 more yards than what OG guess, and more yard than what Paula guessed. Because the correct answer is 20 yards, making Paula our winner. The most unlikely trivia she could have ever won in the history of our show. Talk about a Hail Mary.

[Paula]

Wow.

[Joe]

It's so funny how many times Paula's had these answers where she's like, I think I know this. And then she finishes furthest away. And this one, she's like, I have no idea.

[Doug]

Yeah. And yet I said I had a fun fact. There was this great special I want to say ESPN made. It was sort of on the history of football. And what I didn't know until I watched that this is a few years back. The four. I know you think I'm setting up a joke. I'm really not. The forward pass was invented because there were kids dying in football because it was run only Paula. And they were just running like full tilt at each other in this pile. And no helmets. And they were. They were kids who died. I want to say a really serious injury, if not a death, was related to Teddy Roosevelt, maybe like a nephew or something. So they invented the forward pass, thinking it would stretch everybody apart, pull the players away from each other so there would be less. And what they didn't realize they were doing was just creating potential for more injuries because now you had guys running.

[Joe]

Full hilt speed at each other.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Paula]

Wow.

[Doug]

But the attempt at safety in this game goes way back to 1906 and before.

[Joe]

People have talked for a long time about changes. Let's go from changes in the game of football to changes in your financial plan. So let's transition back to the topic du jour today? These, this idea of unintended consequences. Oh, gee, I want to take a little break from these bigger issues and talk about much more tactical stuff here. First of all, when you go to change the budget, let's say you're either going to put a budget in place or you're going to tear down the budget. Right? Let's Mr. Gorbachev, let's tear down this budget. What are some of those unintended consequences we should watch out for before we change the budget so we have a.

[OG]

Budget and we're going to make some changes to it. I think the biggest thing is to think through the fact that you will be tempted to cheat, especially if you're changing something that like, for example, let's say that you want to start saving a little bit more money, right? And things are going good and you're paying all your bills, but you just kind of look at the numbers. You're like, this is kind of silly. We should probably be spending a little bit more money. And if you don't change your spending behavior at the same time that you are making these additional savings, for example, then what happens is you're going to end up with some consumer debt or a lower cash reserve or something, some other downstream effect is going to happen. And so it's really kind of two separate things. I'll give you another one that's kind of tied to this a little bit. People will ask the question, should I switch my contributions in my 401k from pre tax to Roth? And they'll just say I'm just going to do that like that. I heard on the Stacking Benjamin show that Roth 401ks are better. Well, if you're contributing the maximum to your 401k, the 235 this year and that was all pre tax and now you switch it to Roth, there's a pretty big tax bill that's going to change there. It might be 7, $8,000 a year difference in terms of taxes, which from a cash flow standpoint might be 6, $700 a month. That's a pretty big number if you're not ready to absorb that. And that will manifest itself into high or could into spending out of your cash reserve or higher consumer debt. So I think it's important no matter what changes you have when it comes to, you know, from a financial planning standpoint, to look at those secondary effects. What other dominoes are going to fall based on this, you know, this one.

[Joe]

Decision, Paula, let's go to somebody who's never Done a budget before that may be new to the personal finance game or trying to get their act together and they decide to put a budget in place. It sounds all rosy, but what's an unintended consequence people run into?

[Paula]

I think oftentimes if you've never budgeted before, you might create something that is overly, that's out of touch with reality, overly optimistic. You might not have a good sense of how you're currently spending your money. And so you make these estimates that are just kind of detached from reality. And then you try to force yourself to fit into these little boxes and you can't. And then you just give up on it. I think what's far more effective, particularly for beginners, is start by tracking how you already spend your money. See what you've done over the last three months, every month over the last three months, and then based on that, make small tweaks, small changes, incremental ones, so that your intended way of spending can be like incrementally better and better and better every month. Better in the way that you define it.

[Joe]

Sure. And I've seen so many people to your point that get so frustrated with the budget and they go, you know, budgeting's not for me. Like, that's the wrong lesson. The lesson isn't budgeting isn't for you. The lesson isn't you weren't playful enough.

[Paula]

Well, you know, the other thing though is, and I can certainly relate to this, there are budgets that are so heavily line itemized that it just becomes too complex and too confusing. You know, like for example, the money that you spend at Target or on Amazon, there's clothing, there's shoes, there's some groceries. Do you just have a catch all line item that is Target Amazon or do you have to like break out the little receipts and be like this, this sliver of my Amazon purchase was groceries and this sliver of my Amazon purchase was socks. Right. And it becomes so cumbersome that you just give up on it entirely.

[Joe]

And that's a mistake I see people make when they start out. They're so excited they've got every line item and don't do that.

[Paula]

Yeah, exactly. So I think if you can reduce the line items to the, the fewest number necessary, the better. So I say if you want to go all the way to like rip it to the studs, have a two line item budget, what you save and what you spend, start with that. And then if you want to make it a little bit more complex, you're welcome to do so. Go from 2 to 3 to 4 to 5. But like that's much better than starting with a budget that's got 50 line items that you're never going to stick with.

[Joe]

Yeah, you will end that in a hurry.

[OG]

It just reminds me of that Lion King meme with Mufasa and Simba and he's looking out over the elephant graveyard and the meme always says, we don't. It's like this one says Amazon spending. We just don't go there. Do people really track their Amazon spending? That would be awful. I track it. A number of packages received per day. We try to keep the number under four.

[Joe]

Dan talks about Monarch Money, which is also a product that I use. Former sponsor of the show Monarch Money is flex budgeting. Same which is in between Paula's non budget that Paula you're famous for and the typical category specific budgets. It's kind of a flexible middle. And B, Wayne says actually credit card category, having just credit card as a line item. Jesse, dealer's choice here. Somebody's either setting up a budget as like, you know what, this budget's too restrictive. I'm getting rid of it. Unintended consequence.

[Jesse]

Yeah, that restraint that a budget gives you is literally like a fence that keeps in a bunch of sheep. And to tear down that fence, you might introduce a problem. So I think there's a big parallel here. Do you like that, Doug? Do you like that analogy?

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Well done.

[Jesse]

And that was all with basic words too. No abstentious words in that.

[Doug]

I think only one of them had more than two syllables.

[Jesse]

I do my best.

[Joe]

Okay, enough. Pat yourselves on the back. Let's. What's the. What's an unintended consequence then? What is a sheep that gets away?

[Jesse]

Well, yeah, I mean, you're just gonna. I just had Kellen Klein from the Savvy Couple on an episode of the podcast and he was saying that when their income started to really dramatically rise as their business was taking off, that for like a six or 12 month period, they got rid of the family budget. And he noticed over that time that just the credit card bill just steadily increased month after month after month after month. I mean, it's not anything different than what Og and Paula have been saying, really. But it's just that it is really hard to manage if you're not measuring. Right. That, that Peter Drucker quote, you, you can only manage what you measure. And if you're not measuring, if you're not budging at all, if there's no sort of feedback system, that's getting that spending information back into your brain after you've spent money, it's really hard to then keep that under control.

[Joe]

Let's do one more here. I don't think this is a huge one, but you get that new credit card. You get a credit card offer, Paula, and It gives you 150bajillion bonus points if you spend so much money before X day. So you go on this quest, unintended consequence.

[Paula]

I think you end up overspending because you then are so excited about trying to hit the minimum spend, trying to get the rewards, trying to do whatever that the. What is it you said earlier, Jesse, about the measure becoming the target? Like you know that the goal essentially ends up getting confused. You forget that ultimately the goal isn't get maximum rewards. The goal is spend in a mindful way. And within the context of that spending, you can try to maximize your rewards. But sometimes the maximization of rewards ends up cart before ing the horse beforeing.

[Joe]

I think it's cart B beforeing the horse.

[Paula]

Okay.

[Joe]

Have you ever beforeed your horse, Jesse?

[Jesse]

I would never. That's inappropriate.

[Joe]

I apologize to all the people out there. That is one unintended consequence. Any others? You get the new credit card, Jesse?

[Jesse]

Well, what Paula just said there, not necessarily on the credit card front, but Charlie Munger has a quote, show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcomes. Paula's explanation there kind of got into that a little bit. And even sometimes in other parts of the economy writ large. Like a really good example is just the student loan crisis, like when the government steps in. The government stepped in and tried to make college more affordable or at least tried to give more people access to college and said, hey, we're going to subsidize these loans and make them federal college loans available. But what ends up happening is they, they flood the market with dollars to be spent for college.

[Joe]

And what is a big unintended consequence right here?

[Jesse]

Exactly right. The price of college has gone through the roof. And you can see that in, in much smaller examples when you look around the economy is that, well, if you, if you flood money towards a specific area to make it easier for consumers to do something there, what might just happen is the suppliers raise the prices. And I know that's a bit of a sidebar, but the whole point is that when you really focus on either building a fence or tearing a fence down. Right. In this kind of metaphor, that it's hard to understand which incentives you're creating or which incentives you're destroying. And then ultimately those economic incentives are the thing that drive behavior. Sorry Joe, I know I didn't answer your credit card question at all, but I hope that's okay.

[Joe]

Well, no, I think tangentially you did though. Very similar. Oh gee's like no, no, you got a better one. Og.

[OG]

I just heard another big word.

[Jesse]

Oh, which word was that? Credit or card or Joe.

[OG]

Tangentially. And you dropped a writ large in there. That's. That was, that was a little slyly put in.

[Paula]

I mean it's technically not a big word, but it's. It's a. How do you call it? Like unique.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Seldom used.

[OG]

Yeah, like two wit.

[Jesse]

No, no, writ.

[Joe]

I don't know what's happening.

[OG]

No like to it.

[Joe]

I have no idea what's going on. One more unintended consequence Og of the card, the new card.

[OG]

Well, obviously interest paid. That's a big unintended consequence.

[Joe]

There it is.

[OG]

You know, because most people get the credit card and go, sweet. 200,000 capital one points. Cha Ching. Also I owe 20 grand to capital one. So you know, and yeah, you just pre buy stuff that you don't need and you end up paying interest on it. So if you're going to use your credit card for a big purchase and this is going to be become more and more challenging.

[Paula]

Oh boy.

[OG]

It's gonna be more, more.

[Joe]

Sorry, Dan in the audience said that was a sesqua de pallian word.

[OG]

I'm just wondering if Dan Chad GPT that or did he know that? That's.

[Joe]

I've met Dan. Dan knows that.

[OG]

Okay. But anyways, this is going to be more and more on the reward side of some calculation you're going to have to do because places are charging you to use your credit card, which is really stupid. And then also saying we don't accept cash, which is also really stupid. So you know when you go to pay your tax bill or you go to pay your house insurance or these numbers are higher than it used to be. Right. So it's like your property taxes might be $10,000, your state tax bill might be $5,000. And then you find out, oh well, they're going to charge you 3% to do your use your credit card. Is that worth it? And then you look at it and go, oh well, I get these credit card points. That's cool. I get, you know, membership award points. Is that payoff worth the charge? It is. And I think in most cases it's not going to be. So you're going to have to pay more attention to that sort of stuff on those big one time purchases.

[Joe]

I love this idea. I think the big takeaway for me is we always think about the straightforward stuff. And Jesse, I love that you brought up the student loan crisis as one because there were so many unintended consequences that we've seen the last several years in what was, you know, initially and in a lot of fronts was a good thing.

[OG]

Covid money, small business loan money, FHA programs in the 90s. I mean, all of them have a really good piece to it. And then you go, what else happened because of it? The real challenging thing with policy decisions, I think, not that we're going to solve this today or any day for that matter, is even if you think you can see the future, when you go well down the line, it's so far down the line when some of that stuff happens that it's almost like I don't even care. This is true for any sort of big seismic change, whether it's monetary policy or anything like that. It's just like we're just here to solve today's problems, tomorrow be damned. And the reality is when it comes to your money, you have to be paying attention to what tomorrow looks like too, because it's, it's you like you can't rely on other stuff.

[Joe]

Well, and even taking this from a policy decision just to the basic way that we think about our money and our career and our life, I love, you know, seven habits are highly effective people. Again, back to the same book. When you pick up an end of the stick, you got to think about what's the other end of the stick that you're picking up. And often we get the new credit card. We think about our working hours. We're going to pick up the phone one more time to do whatever, you know, our credit score, whatever the topic might be, we don't think enough about that other end of the stick. I will link to Jim Wang's incredible piece on [e-mail] a pretty heady piece. And I think, guys, you did a great job using only about 17 big words doing it and one made upward. So congratulations, nice job. And we end every show by finding out what these brilliant people are doing, where they work. You know, they say they work 60 hours a week and they really work about 30. So, Paula, what's going on at the Afford Anything podcast?

[Paula]

Let's see. On the Afford Anything podcast, every other episode, ish. You join the podcast, Joe. We together answer questions that are submitted by our listeners. So we've Got that going on on the Afford Anything podcast. We've got on the first Friday of every month a recap of the macroeconomic view of the year, which is today. Right. So it's what's happening with inflation. It's what's happening. Jerome Powell gave his remarks in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. It looks almost certain that the Fed's going to lower interest rates at their September meeting. They're meeting later this month. And so we talk about that, we talk about inflation, we talk about the jobs report. All of that is in our first Friday update, which is all the salad.

[Joe]

All the fixins that go into the salad.

[Paula]

Exactly. The spring mix today, the avocado on.

[Joe]

The Afford Anything podcast. So guess what? When you finish here, you can go over and listen to Afford Anything and then you can go over and listen to Jesse's amazing podcast, Personal Finance for Long Term Investors. What's going on over there, Jess?

[Jesse]

Well, when I'm not making heinous sound effects into my microphone, I'm recording episodes like the one coming out next Wednesday, which is going to feature a bunch of, I find them interesting, like contrarian and controversial takes from personal finance and financial planning, a lot of which are inspired by interactions with readers and listeners and kind of us going back and forth on our various opinions. But I just reviewed the episode before we pressed schedule on it and I think it came out pretty well. So I'm excited to hear what the audience has to say.

[Joe]

That's awesome. And yeah, send the feedback to Jesse and you know what, to send feedback, you got to listen to it. Personal Finance for Long Term investors. Jesse and Paula, I'm going to be seeing you guys next week at fincon.

[Jesse]

Yeah, totally.

[Joe]

Everybody's got to come join us, Jesse and I for sure, at Broadway Grill and brews. Go to stacky benjamin.com meetup to sign up and then we may have later in the evening, special guest star Paula Pant may join us.

[Paula]

Yes, it depends on my flight. I'm basically landing right when the meetup begins.

[Joe]

You're the behest of American Airlines.

[Paula]

If American Airlines plays well, then I will be there at the end.

[Joe]

It's awesome. So come join us. And also the team, by the way, from the Catching up to Fi podcast.

[Jesse]

Jesse, how did things go? Joe, with the whole are we going to be able to buy some drinks for some of our fans out there? How do we have a budget for that?

[Joe]

We will have a budget. Not the world's biggest budget because we don't want anybody, you know, drinking and stumbling home but we do have a little, little. We're gonna have some fun.

[Jesse]

So it's like a small fence. It's like a small fence that we're building.

[Joe]

That's right. Yeah.

[Doug]

Or just buy a whole bunch of those little shots, like the little glasses. Just do a whole bunch of those. Those are really economical. We get like a hundred of those, right?

[Jesse]

Everybody gets a six ounce pour. Yeah, that's it.

[Joe]

Of their favorite beer stacking. Benjamin.com meetup. Come join us if you're anywhere close to Portland, Oregon. We'd love to see you. All right. Other thing we love is when Doug.

[OG]

Takes this whole, whoa. Don't I get to say what I got going on?

[Joe]

Oh, yeah. We can't forget what you're doing. What's going on? This fun college football slash first NFL weekend.

[OG]

Yeah, I mean, I'm just in perpetual motion, oscillating between professional peregrinations and recreational escapades. Oh. Judiciously partitioning my hours between renewer of obligations and personal exhilaration with one progeny now matriculated to the august halls of Texas A and M. I'm luxuriating in the quality interludes with my remaining adolescent heirs while sustaining a periphetic lifestyle that harmonizes work, travel, and familial conviviality.

[Jesse]

Mr. Gas Station Right there.

[Joe]

Doug, take us home. What should we have gotten out of today's episode?

[Doug]

He pronounced at least half of those correctly, so I think he gets a point. Award him a point. All right, Joe, first, take some advice from Jesse. Once your measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a target you can measure or something. Second, don't forget what Paula said in the obstreperous way only she can. Don't bother budgeting if you're going to simplify it. Go big or go home. Am I right, Paula? Like a hundred lines in the budget. I think I got what you said. But the big lesson, don't let Joe's mom pick the big NFL football weekend menu. Nobody wants a salad on football weekend, Ma. Unless there's snicker bars in it.

[Joe]

Nobody.

[Doug]

Thanks to the Jesse Kramer for joining us today. You'll find Jesse's hit podcast Personal Finance for Long Term Investors wherever you're listening to us now. We'll include links in our show notes@Stack stockingbenjamins.com thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her wondrously extraordinary podcast afford anything wherever you listen to finer podcasts. And finally, thanks also to OG for joining us today. Looking for good financial planning help. To wit, head to stackingbenjamins.com OG for his calendar.

[OG]

I don't think that's right.

[Doug]

Probably not right. That wasn't right at all. This show is the property of SP Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025, and is created by Josal Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh, yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin show.

[Joe]

And we're done. Oh, my God. I. I gotta say, making a podcast with all of you yahoos, my head is constant. Immediately just watching the chat as you guys are cracking me up.

[OG]

The only one I couldn't get fast enough was parapetetic. Is that right? I can't. I can barely read it. It's so small on my screen.

[Doug]

It is peripatetic.

[Jesse]

Peripatetic.

[OG]

Peripatetic. Yeah, I just. I think I stumbled only on that one. All the rest of them I think I got right.

[Doug]

No, the very end. What was it? There was one.

[OG]

Conviviality.

[Doug]

Yeah, conviviality.

[Joe]

Oh, Julie, I'm not even putting that up on the screen. Not happening. All right, we'll see.

[OG]

Now what's not getting on the screen? I want to see.

[Paula]

Oh, I see.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

She put up a picture of someone beforeing her horse. Disgusting.

[Joe]

Whoa.

[OG]

How do you guys get this? I don't see any of that. Send it to me.

[Jesse]

Josh is writing something in the chat GPT right now.

[OG]

I know.

[Jesse]

Draw me a picture of someone beforeing her horse.

[OG]

Hold on, I'm gonna. I'm gonna see what ChatGPT has to say about that.

[Joe]

Oh, my God, you guys are so funny.

[Paula]

Oh, my God.

[Joe]

All right, everybody, can we have an.

[Paula]

After show just for that?

[Joe]

Try to make as much of that the after show as you possibly can.