← The Stacking Benjamins Show
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- [00:00]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's Monday morning, the coffee's hot, OG Has a cold, and Doug is ready to roll.
- [00:06]
OG
Sounds like a great Monday.
- [00:08]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It does sound like a great Monday. Like any other Monday. We just saw OG Cough up a hairball. That was fun.
- [00:15]
OG
It's cute.
- [00:16]
Doug
Yeah. Glad we got that on video.
- [00:20]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So good. Well, to. To. How do I transition out of that?
- [00:26]
Doug
Speaking of phlegm balls, we got some tasty programming for you.
- [00:32]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's gonna be great. You know what? Let's just completely segue because it is Monday, and we are happy to do what we do every Monday, which is salute the troops on behalf of the men and women at Navy Federal Credit Union, the men and women making podcast Mom's Basement. Here's a big shout out to the men and women who kept us safe all weekend long. We'll keep on keeping on.
- [00:53]
Doug
What do you notice? What do you notice about that mug there, Joe?
- [00:56]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's. It's pretty. Pretty plain.
- [00:58]
Doug
Surprisingly devoid of a Stacking Benjamin logo. Isn't it another Monday. Here's some troops I want to see how many times I can get you to say, it's in the mail. I sent it.
- [01:09]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Let's all go stack some Benjamins together now, shall we? Sometimes I feel like everyone I work with is an idiot. And by sometimes, I mean all times. All the time.
- [01:23]
Doug
Every of the time. Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and how do you create your best retirement today and all of this week? We're helping you live better, retire happier, and with more money. Sound good? Buckle up, buttercup, because it's retirement week in the basement. But that's not all. I'll also share a TikTok minute. Sure to make your head spin. And we'll answer a letter from Shane about a new investment option in your 401k. Can it help you grow your money faster? And like that shiny chrome on my El Camino, I'll race in and deliver some of my beautiful podcast topping trivia. And now two guys who have raced to the mics to help you plan a better retirement. It's Joe and O. Jj. Jj.
- [02:35]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Hey there, stackers, and happy Monday to you. Welcome back to the show. We're super happy you're here, so sit back and relax because we are going to, as Doug, you so eloquently said, help you retire. The guy who's helped a lot of people retire over the course of his career. Mr. OG is here. How are you My friend.
- [02:53]
OG
Pretty good all things considered.
- [02:56]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You lived through another fun weekend.
- [02:59]
OG
There's not enough dayquil in the universe right now.
- [03:01]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's great to be sick and have family visiting at the same time. It's got to be fun.
- [03:06]
OG
Yeah, that was a blast. I blame this all on my kids.
- [03:09]
Doug
Because they, because they're defenseless.
- [03:12]
OG
I don't go anywhere, interact with other people.
- [03:15]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Do you need a reason? I just blame it on my kids. The fact that I haven't made six mortgage payments in a row. Blame it on my kids.
- [03:22]
OG
Well, I mean, it's only been five. I've only missed five at six. They Dan you? Nope. Happy to be here. Short week for me this week and then I'm boogieing up north. I'm getting out of here. I'm playing hooky.
- [03:35]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's a great time to leave Texas right about now.
- [03:38]
OG
It's getting there. It's getting there. I just figured a golf tournament on nyquil should be pretty fun. So that's what I'm going to do this week. What are you guys doing this week besides helping people retire?
- [03:47]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, we are. What am I doing this week?
- [03:52]
OG
You don't have any idea. You're just a day to day.
- [03:55]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yes, I'm on a need to know basis and apparently you don't need to know and neither do I.
- [03:59]
OG
Neither do you because it's.
- [04:00]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It's going to be a rough week. And Doug of course is running around the house looking for the beeping that's occurring in his.
- [04:08]
Doug
Nobody knows what you're talking about, Joe.
- [04:10]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I know, but you've had some beeping going on.
- [04:12]
Doug
We've had some beeping that we cannot find. It's probably in a rafter somewhere. And we have to go to some drastic measures to find this beeping.
- [04:22]
Joe Saul-Sehy
We have this, by the way, with our carbon monoxide detector. And I swear to God, they engineer this for. No, Lou. Those beeps are too close together for them to figure out where the beeping is coming from. We. We got to put it just further apart.
- [04:36]
Doug
Can we do these three hours apart also?
- [04:39]
OG
Only at 2am, right?
- [04:41]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That's right.
- [04:42]
Doug
In high school we. To a cool teacher. To a really cool teacher. We played a prank where we took one of those musical birthday cards and just put it in the ceiling tiles up in the room, like in the back corner of the room. So it was just kind of faint. Oh, no. Yeah. Took all day for him to finally figure out he needed to go up into the ceiling tiles. It was pretty funny.
- [05:05]
OG
Well, you're funny.
- [05:06]
Joe Saul-Sehy
No Wonder you were so well liked in high school by all the staff. We got a great show. We are going to help you retire. Whether you want to retire early, want to retire on time, or maybe you're starting late. We're going to help you get there better, more smoothly all week long. And today we're going to start that journey by introducing where a lot of people get it wrong and how to make sure that you are on rails when it comes to planning your retirement. We're going to dive into that in just a moment, but before we get to that, we've got a couple sponsors to make sure that we can keep on keeping on. We're going to hear from them and then you, me, Doug, OG we're planning your retirement. Let's go. All this week we're deep diving into retirement. No, gee, let's kick off the discussion here. I think when it comes to retirement planning, there's a little bit of beware what you ask for. And a lot of us get this wrong. We want to start with, okay, what's my safe withdrawal rate if I'm a uber geek? Or what is my, what's my plan to take money out? How do I set up my funds? And I think before we get to any of that, we have to ask ourselves, really, what is this retirement thing all about? Because let me give you a couple statistics. One we aired on the show last September. This is from the Wealthy Accountant blog. The average Americans, healthy retirement age. Healthy retirement. So we have our life expectancy and we have our healthy life expectancy. The difference between those is when we're healthy, we're able to do, of course, all the things that we want to do, all these big plans that we have for retirement years. I'm not going to be at work. I'm going to be doing the stuff. The average healthy lifespan in America, 66.1 years. Meaning that for a lot of people, if they're going to retire on time, OG we're not even healthy enough to do the things that we think that we're going to do. That's number one. Number two is you see all these statistics recently around as people dig further and further into what makes a successful retirement. The average retiree spends their first 18 months in this blissful happiness, this incredible, incredible happiness. This is research by a gentleman named Ken Dykewald who spent his entire career looking at retirement and how we retire. First 18 months we spend in this blissful place and then, oh, gee, if we haven't done the right planning, we have the deepest, darkest trough identity crisis. And I think it's OG because we go, oh, wait a minute. This is it. It's not just playing golf every day. It's not just about waking up whenever I want to, like, what am I actually doing with. With the rest of my life? So I don't know. I think we. We need to help people reset. I don't think this really begins with the money.
- [07:57]
OG
No, no, it definitely doesn't start with the money. I mean, the money is a significant part of it, undoubtedly, as you start to design what it is that you want to spend your day doing. But, you know, you have this structure that's been your life for the last 25 or 35 or 45 years of what your. What the rhythm of your life looks like. For us right now, it's work hard from September to May and then try to cram in all the fun stuff in June, July, and the early part of August. And if I told you that was my schedule, you'd go, oh, well, you probably have kids. And that's the rhythm that we have. If we got to the beginning of September or beginning of June and said, all right, guys, what do you think you want to do this summer? Like, the, you know, the meter's running like it's already. We're already in it at that point in time. We did just drop a trip in there this late summer for us that we had not known about. And it's pretty stressful to be eight weeks out. Now we're six weeks out when we're recording this, but when we planned it eight weeks out from this week long trip that we're doing that we kind of forgot that we were doing. So you think about your retirement. You get to your retirement, it's like showing up on summer break and not having any sort of plan. Now, the first, like you said, the first little bit of that's cool, right? You're like, I don't know, sit at the pool and drink beer.
- [09:09]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Fantastic.
- [09:11]
OG
That's cool. You know, and there's a lot of research to suggest that you need two consecutive weeks of uninterrupted leisure time, right? Like, no work emails, no work phone calls, two weeks straight to, like, totally decompress and, like, you know, reset the meter for work. That's a whole separate thing. So you can imagine, you know, the first couple of weeks of summer break are like, oh, sweet. I could just kind of hang out and, yeah, just kind of go where the wind takes me. But then you get to the dog days of summer, right? And if there's nothing on the calendar, you're bored. I think that's very similar to how you consider your, your financial independence time as well. Not saying that you have to schedule everything. You know, I wake up at 4, you know, I wake up at 7, I do whatever. But you better have a pretty good idea of what that structure and that rhythm is going to look like.
- [09:56]
Joe Saul-Sehy
When does this planning start? If we don't start it the day that we retire, which I mean to your point, if you did that with summer vacation, all the great attractions are full, all the stuff is booked up. Heck, we even tried, we had friends that tried to join us on a we're going to do a Christmas markets cruise this year. We had friends just try to join us last week. That book is. That boat's long, long, but long packed. Like they just, you can't do what you want. A lot of the time when you wait till the last minute to plan. But when should we start planning? You know, we got some stackers in their 20s, we got some in their 30s. When do we start to plan and how do we get. When do we need to get more granular around? Okay, this is what I really want to do with my time.
- [10:34]
OG
Again, I don't know that it's a granular thing. I don't think that you want to plan to the granular level. For example, if health and fitness is something that's important to you, you're probably going to want to be doing that when you're in your 30s and 40s and 50s. And I would imagine that when you retire in your 60, you're going to want to keep doing that. So maybe that's part of your rhythm is you are going to allocate time every day to exercise or whatever health related type things you want to do. Maybe your trips or vacations or sightseeing things or whatever, maybe that's going to revolve around things that are health related. So instead of going sitting on a boat at the Christmas markets like you're going to do, maybe you plan a trip to the park so that you have to, you know, you're going to do some hiking or something like that, it's going to help you shape and frame out what the rhythm of your week or month or whatever is going to look like. If you have kids or grandkids, like my wife's parents, they have a very rhythmic time to. When they come visit us, they see us in October when the weather's nice in Dallas for a couple of weeks and they get to catch some high school football games and Caroline cheerleading and so on and so forth. And then they come at the end of the school year and they get to see the final little bit. And it's starting to get warm, but not warm enough yet. And the kids are out of school finally. So they get a little bit, you know, that's. That's that time. And. And so they have this very predictable schedule that they have something to look forward to. Was the George Burns or something that said, how do you live so long? Or whatever, basically paraphrasing. And he said, well, I'm booked on my hundredth birthday, so I have stuff to do.
- [12:01]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Right.
- [12:02]
OG
When you stay in that schedule, you know what, if you're going to play golf, you probably play golf with the same people or a group of the same people. So you probably play golf on Saturday mornings or Thursday afternoons or like whatever that is. That's your golf time.
- [12:13]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. I think a lot of people were surprised with Christine Ben's book that came out early last fall. Oh, gee. In chapter number one, she interviews an annuity expert. And they don't talk at all about annuities. They talk about what makes a successful retirement. And spot on. What you're talking about this predictability. It doesn't have to be a job, but if you treat retirement like a predictable job, but one that you love, what you do, one when you can raise that flag, that little middle finger flag, whatever you choose, right. But you get out of bed at a certain time, you structure your day a certain way just like it's a job, they're finding more and more evidence that that is what creates a successful longer retirement.
- [12:55]
OG
Well, there's both sides of it. You know, Tony Robbins says that you got to have certainty in your life and uncertainty, you know, so there has to be some sort of spontaneity to the. To the schedule, obviously. But if you like traveling, you should probably do some traveling. Make sure you like traveling. You and Cheryl travel all the time because you like doing it. And so if all of a sudden you retired, you would probably keep doing the thing that you like doing. And how do you know you like doing it? Because you've been doing it. You know, you're not waiting until. Well, I got to wait until I retire to figure out if I like golf. You know, if you think you might want to play golf, play golf.
- [13:26]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That's what I liked about. And I'll link to both of these episodes. The Christine Benz episode I just mentioned, and when our good friend Benjamin Brandt was On, and he was talking about OG because, you know, the original question here was, when do we start doing the planning? Benjamin likes the idea, and I know you do too, of during your pre retirement years, experiment with these things that you think you might want to do in retirement. At one point, Cheryl and I thought, we would like to be digital nomads. We'd want to be homeless. I keep podcasting. Yeah. I would podcast from anywhere. We'd live in Portugal for a while. We'd live wherever. It sounded amazing. I lasted five months. It sucked. It was not at all what I wanted to do, but the fact that we got to play test that ahead of time. So I think whether you're in your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, think about what the things are that you might want to do when you're financially independent.
- [14:12]
OG
Just a routine peyote walking down the.
- [14:14]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Street, really, as it happens, as, as they do as they do. How come, og, you always get the good window, by the way, where you can see the coyote and I gotta crane my neck to see the coyote right there. I got, got no idea. But this idea of tying it ahead of time. I love the fact that now in your vacations, og, you're play testing your future retirement.
- [14:34]
OG
Yeah.
- [14:35]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So from there, I think this is the important thing. When I've sat down with people and we've been talking about planning out the numbers for retirement, a lot of the time, og, people want to start with the numbers. I believe this is what you start with. What do you want to do? And then you begin to design. Okay, how much money do I need to take out every month to make that happen? How much fuel am I going to need for that number? So instead of starting with what's the safest withdrawal rate I can get? Don't get me wrong, you might want to calculate that later. Yeah, you should start with, can I afford to do all these things that I want to do? Where do the lumpy expenses fit in there, though? Oh, gee, let's say that I want to buy an RV or I want to buy a boat, or I want to buy a second home. No, early, early on in my retirement. I mean, do I think of those as budget items in, in retirement, or do I think of those as like a separate pot of money?
- [15:26]
OG
Well, it's all, it's all going to depend on what your financial circumstances are. I mean, if you've got $10 million and you're going to spend a million on a vacation condo and it makes sense for you to write a check, well, then really? You have $9 million to spend and a million of real estate equity.
- [15:41]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I think that's a great way to think about it. Anyway, Isn't it like to just take it off the table and go, okay.
- [15:46]
OG
Well, I mean there's different. You know, we've talked offline about the concept of vacation properties. I know, I've talked to Doug about this. We have all these experiences in our family about going up north right. When we lived in Michigan and, and even now we live in Texas. We go to Michigan for a few weeks and we have this recurring conversation of lake house. But then you start doing the math on it and you go, maybe it just makes sense just to have a really good budget for travel. Because after you say, well, I'm going to go buy a lake house, it's X dollars, I got to put 10, 15, 20% down. So I'm out of pocket a big chunk. And now I've got a mortgage payment and taxes and insurance and maintenance and utilities and all the stuff that associated the fixed costs associated with having this place. And then of course the variable cost of when I go out there, I need to put food and put gas in the boat and so on so forth. So if you can pencil that all out and go, well, if I can afford to pay 5,000amonth in fixed expenses, I can afford to pay 60,000 a year in some pretty banger vacations.
- [16:40]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You know, Cheryl and I actually made that very decision og we had a long talk about buying that second, that vacation home and decided instead to do what you talked about.
- [16:48]
OG
Yeah.
- [16:49]
Doug
So hold on, did you just talk about a $60,000 vacation budget?
- [16:53]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Sure.
- [16:54]
OG
At 5,000amonth. If you got taxes, insurance, if you're.
- [16:57]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Going to buy the second home that is going to cost you, that's totally huge amount of money.
- [17:02]
Doug
Way to be relatable, Mr. Everyman.
- [17:07]
OG
Dude. $500,000 mortgage is three grand a month. And then you add taxes and insurance on top of it and utilities. That's a half a million dollar lake house.
- [17:16]
Doug
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [17:17]
OG
Which isn't a lot really.
- [17:18]
Doug
No, it's not. It's hard to find those actually.
- [17:20]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, that's what I was going to say. Doug, is to your point, if you're 25 listening to us, that sounds totally unrelatable. But to the 60 year old still like yeah, maybe okay, maybe.
- [17:29]
Doug
No, and you're right. And actually regardless of your age, that's kind of how the numbers work out. But we don't think of them that way. We don't sort of Reverse engineer them to realize, oh, this is how much I'd be spending and I can, I can have a lot of fun for a lot less money. So do I really need that asset in a vacation area when I can take half of that, invest it and spend 30k and still have two vacations of a lifetime in the same year?
- [17:53]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Let's say it's someplace out in the woods in the middle of nowhere and you can do that on $2,500 a month. Oh, gee, that's still paying your vacations.
- [18:01]
OG
So, yeah, still 30.
- [18:02]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That's still, we can cut that number in half.
- [18:04]
OG
And it's still, I mean, the argument, of course, is that all of that money is not going to expenses. You have some equity you're building up and that sort of thing, whatever. But nevertheless, it's certainly something to think about. So your question around, you know, how do we think about those big, big purchases is. Well, it depends on is, is it going to be a single purchase? Am I going to buy the vacation house or am I going to buy the boat or am I going to have it with payments? There's no wrong answer to either of these things. It's just, it's going to affect the cash flow with the rest of the assets.
- [18:31]
Joe Saul-Sehy
But I love the fact that we just went through buying the second home and decided maybe not even just contemplating that ahead of time.
- [18:40]
OG
I mean, that's what we've done. I still look at them on Zillow, but yeah.
- [18:42]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And by the way, I think we still might purchase a vacation home, however, rent it out 99% of the time.
- [18:48]
OG
Yeah, there's good things and not so good things about that too. You know, there's 100%.
- [18:52]
Doug
Your neighbors will love you.
- [18:53]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, I think the ones that we're looking at are already vacation homes. Doug, right next door to you, by the way.
- [18:59]
Doug
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:00]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So now we've got our number, we want to spend every month, we maybe have set aside some of those big lumpy expenses. I've got money in Roth, I've got money in pre tax, I got money in after tax. Let's talk about the tax triangle. Og, how are we going to think about pulling money then from these three different buckets of money in a way that makes sense?
- [19:21]
OG
Well, this is a 301 discussion. I think unfortunately, it's largely going to depend on your year to year spending and consumption plans. You know, it's going to depend on what tax rates are. It's going to depend on what your Social Security and Medicare situation looks like other forms of income you have, if you have your rental income from your vacation house that you just recently purchased, that's going to have an impact on all these decisions as well. So I think the answer is that you have to have a strategy that changes year to year. You can't just, you know, make it up as you go.
- [19:53]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Sure.
- [19:53]
OG
It's going to be different every year. That's a really a great podcast answer, I suppose.
- [19:58]
Joe Saul-Sehy
But well, no, no, because I think letting people know that you this is going to be an ongoing thing is super important. You know, the place that I start from myself is what are the ticking time bombs coming down the road? And when I look at the Roth bucket, there's no time bomb. In fact, a lot of studies show that people end up not spending money from the Roth because they want to save it for later too much. Right. We will end up spending less money and doing less stuff. Unless we've already planned out the way that you and I just talked about. What are the things we really want to do? Money in the taxable brokerage side, we're going to pay the capital gain or not. So really the ticking time bomb is the money in the pre tax portion. So I think maybe starting with that as your rubric, how much money is in that pre tax spot? How do I take that out efficiently so that I don't end up with some big requirement distribution issues down the road? Is that maybe a good place to start?
- [20:54]
OG
Well, yes, but then you also have to consider all the other things too, because if you take all your money out of your pre tax and then you get a higher Medicare Premium.
- [21:00]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Right, right.
- [21:01]
OG
5X what you were planning, you know, what did you say times two people in the household or something like that. Or your Social Security is taxed at a different rate so it all works together.
- [21:11]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And on that note, Og, I'm glad you brought that up because Doug can weigh in on this one with today's trivia question.
- [21:18]
Doug
Gonna shock the world here, Joe. Hey there Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug and let's retire this idea that you can use the same portfolio for retirement you had pre retirement. Shall we? Case in point, if you pull too much money from pre tax IRAs during retirement, you may pay a tax on your Medicare Part B and Part D. Today's trivia question, what's the name of this additional Medicare fee you'll pay if you make a yearly income above the annual threshold? I'll be back right after I go yell at the Neighborhood kids playing out in the street. Gotta keep up my reputation, right? Hey there, Stackers. I'm Mr. Get off my lawn and Mr. Does your mom know you use that gesture? Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Seriously, these kids playing in the street, shouldn't they be at home like looking at an iPhone or some game system? I mean really, before you know it, we'll have kids outside playing pick up games. Of course. Okay. Making friends and riding their bikes around the neighborhood. Next thing you know, the HOA's hired them as undercover enforcement officers. We cannot have that. Well, what we can have is the answer to today's trivia question, though. Today I asked you this gem. What's the additional fee you'll pay on your Medicare Part B and Part D premiums if you earn above the annual threshold? The answer? Payers pulling too much from their Pre tax tax 401k or IRA may find themselves subject to an income related monthly adjustment amount or IRMAA, otherwise known as IRMAA. Why did I say it twice? AKA also IRMA. Because there's some extra Rs in there. How do you avoid IRMA? My advice, don't go to the that diner out on Route 3. But let's see what Joe and OG have to say about this.
- [23:15]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh man. Well, good timing on that trivia, Doug, because. Oh gee, exactly what you're talking about is a little tax called irma.
- [23:23]
OG
Well, the major problem with it, besides the fact that it punches you in the face, is that it's two years removed. So it's the decisions you make in 2025 are going to affect your Medicare premiums beginning in January of 2027. So there's not even like that immediate cause and effect where you go, oh yeah, that makes sense. I had a big deal last year. That's why it's going up. It's like you spent all that money that's done and gone and then a year later you get hit with the increase. So you have to pay attention to it. And sometimes, you know, look, if you have a lot of money and you make a lot of money, that's just, that's the cost to do a business. Like it ain't. What's, what's the phrase? It ain't cheap being rich, you know.
- [24:03]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. I think though, that's another reason why I build around my pre tax. Because pre tax has all these gotchas, right? There's the Irma gotcha, there's the required minimum distribution gotchas later on, like I might not want to spend this much money later on every year. So maybe it's going to be better for IRMAA and for requirement distributions to take some amount out each year. The reason I say that is this. I think what a lot of people do is they're just like, oh, I don't want to pay that tax, so I'm going to defer my pre tax money. I'm a deferred. I'm gonna defer, I'm gonna defer it. I'm defer it. And I think between RMDs and Irma OG this just defer at all cost versus build around. Maybe I tap that a little early to let a little bit of the air out of the balloon might be a better strategy.
- [24:50]
OG
I mean, you have to pay attention to it. It starts increasing at 212,000, which seems like a boatload of money until you start looking at what those required distributions can look like when you're 75 or 80 or 85 or 90. And this also counts when you do things like conversions. You know, if you retire when you're early, let's say you retire when you're 55, you have until 65 to kind of help plan that out a little bit. Because the 65 is where Medicare kicks in. Right. So from 55 to 63, you can really start cratering that. Pay the penalties, pay the taxes and no penalties, but pay the, pay the increased tax rate now so that you are potentially driving down those pre tax assets before it even counts. So there's lots of, there's lots of strategies that are involved. I think what's important is to not have any surprises. Yeah, you don't want to show up and have your, you know, Medicare premium that you thought was $185 per person is now $600 per person. Like that's a, it's a pretty wild shock. And it's seems impossible. You go, wow, my gosh, that's $750,000. Well, yeah, that's a lot of money. Do the RMD calculations, run that out, you know, let me know what your RMD is when you're 91 years old.
- [26:03]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Be like, oh man, I did not see that coming.
- [26:06]
OG
It happens.
- [26:06]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Did not see that coming. The RMD that's so big, it creates a bigger Irma situation. It's like you get, you know, it's like that Bugs Bunny cartoon. Bugs Bunny's asking the, the lion, where does he want to get hit? He's not asking him if he wants to get hit with a mouth. He's asking him where he wants to get hit. Would you like to be hit with this IRS money? Plan it out ahead of time, people. And that's why I like starting with how am I going to control that faucet from the pre tax mix? Because I think that also answers another question. Where does the Roth play in? Well, the Roth is great to help mitigate that. Also I think a lot of people like do I spend the Roth first? Do I spend the pre tax first? You know, I like them both together because if I'm trying to live a certain lifestyle and I'm trying to have only so much money come out of the pre tax bucket, I can supplement that with Roth money and have it make a better tax situation than I did if I went in. Either, either or. Coming up on Wednesday, we are going to talk about why geo arbitrage might not be a great idea. Following your kids might not be a great idea. It's all about community. And there are some makers of a new documentary that came out in the last couple of years called Join or Die. Pete and Rebecca Davis are going to join us as we continue the discussion on what makes a successful retirement. And it turns out og you are more likely to have a successful happy retirement if you do just a couple simple things that their documentary dives into. Of course, in the 2001 we will also dive even further into this discussion on Friday. We got a couple money geeks people in the personal finance community may know. Carsten Jeske, AKA Big Earn, who likes to talk safe withdrawal rates. Frank Vasquez who likes to talk risk parity. And our good friend Dana Anspach is going to join them for a very nerdy roundtable on Friday. All right, now let's go into a new segment we like to call We Just got a letter. We just got a letter. We just got a letter. Wonder who it's from. Did your kids see Blue's Clues?
- [28:10]
Doug
Oh, yeah. I love that show.
- [28:11]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So, so, so good. We did get a letter, guys. We got a letter from stacker Shane and well, Doug, you've got the letter in your hands.
- [28:19]
Doug
Sure do, Joe. Shane says hello. That's it.
- [28:24]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Hey there, Shane. Thank you. And that was. We just got a letter a second. Okay, onto the next segment.
- [28:31]
Doug
Oh, but I see there's more below that. I didn't realize the structure of his complex writing style. He says, today I learned about a new fintech company called Basic Capital that is sketchy as all hell funded.
- [28:45]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I'm not sure how he feels about it.
- [28:47]
Doug
Don't Beat around the bush, Shane. Funded by Bill Ackman and ran by some former Goldman Sachs guy. Basically they're advocating for using 5x leverage on your 401k. I feel like your listeners don't need an explanation as to why this is a terrible idea, but I'd love to hear you guys explore. One, how is this actually structured to be legal? Two, I assume the math they're using to justify how their fees don't negate all of your potential profits is.
- [29:12]
OG
Oh wow.
- [29:16]
Doug
I don't think Shane just came out of church when he wrote this, but I'd love to have actual professionals explain why. And three, how is this any different than taking a loan from organized crime to fund your retirement? Thanks for all the entertainment. No, thank you, Shane. I think you provided the entertainment today.
- [29:35]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, let's walk into this because I have never seen anything like this. Guys. The website is basic capital.com. i don't know if I even want to say this because this is the strangest fintech I have I have ever seen the crux of it. And by the way, they use a bunch of big big obtuse terms and how this all works. Even after being on the website for 45 minutes looking to try to figure out what the hell they're actually doing. Still incredibly opaque. But Basic Capital OG seems to work this way for employers. They can create a 401k plan which is run ostensibly I think by these fine people at Basic Capital. You then put money into the account that's usual. Your employer can match. That is also usual. They've created some online tools so that you can help decide what the right amount to put in is so you can figure that out. You know, I want to retire on X amount of money per year so here's how much I got to put in to do that. Okay, that's kind of neat. But still, we've seen that before. Places like Fidelity. And then here's where it gets funky. You can either use standard investment options or quote and optional additional capital. What the hell is this?
- [31:03]
OG
I'm in.
- [31:04]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Give your employees the option to get more from their 401k.
- [31:07]
OG
I'm in.
- [31:07]
Joe Saul-Sehy
When an employee opts into Basic capital, they get $4 of non recourse financing.
- [31:14]
OG
I'm in.
- [31:15]
Joe Saul-Sehy
For every $1 they contribute, I'm in. 5 full centers of investing power. You like this? Basic Capital generates an income stream that offsets the financing cost and ultimately pays it off as you approach retirement.
- [31:30]
OG
I happen to be on one side. You know, when you think of the Bell curve of, you know, if you remember, statistics class, and there's a bell curve, and they have like, one standard deviation and two. Like, I'm the third standard deviation of excess risk way over on that side.
- [31:45]
Doug
So, yeah, you're like the wingsuit jumper of the financial world.
- [31:48]
OG
Yeah, yeah. Without. With one wing, it's like, it'll be fine.
- [31:53]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I love the next line on this for employers. Help your team hit their goals. Help.
- [31:58]
OG
Yeah. I mean, here's the deal with leverage. Leverage works fantastically. In fact, I don't remember which personality said this, but it was somebody pretty famous. And it was a comment this person made kind of off the cuff, and it caught a lot of people by surprise, but it's completely right. The fastest way to increase your net worth is to lever the heck out of yourself. And to do it with your investment portfolio is a great idea, except for when it's not a great idea because it goes down five times faster. So let me put it in perspective. So let's say that you have an investment account that has a million dollars in it. If you have a million dollars at. At your brokerage company, Fidelity or Schwab, say you have a million dollars of ETFs, very well diversified, everything. Life is good. You can go to Schwab or Fidelity or whomever and say, hey, do I get any extra benefits for having this money? And they'll say, well, sure, what else do you want? And you'll say, what if I wanted to buy more stock today just based on the fact that I got a million bucks? They let you do it. In fact, some places will let you go 9 to 1 depending on the type of investment that you have. Yeah. Imagine if you have. Let's just say you just. Let's say you do this example. Let's say you do three to one. Three to one's a way easier, lighter, you know, not as leverage. Right. It's only 300%. You're only borrowing 300% of your house. All right, so you have a million dollars. So you go to Schwab and you say, can I get 2 million more stock? And they'd say, yeah, absolutely, have at it. It's all yours. Now, they're gonna charge you interest on that.
- [33:28]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Right.
- [33:28]
OG
The interest is, whatever it is, 6% or something. And your goal is to say, well, my 2 million that I borrowed at 6%, it's gonna grow at 10 over time. So that's gonna compound faster, you know, along the way. That's the goal. Right. What happens on April 8th when the market goes down 15%. So let's just do the math. So Schwab is not going to. They're not taking the hit on the 2 million. Right. Like, if there's a chance they're not getting paid back, they are going to zero you out to make sure they get paid back. So you have a million dollars of your money plus 2 million of theirs. So you owe them 2 mil. You're in the hole. The market goes down 20%. Well, what's 20% of 3 million 600K. Right. But you only have a million of your own money, so you take all the loss. So your million turns into 400 as it closes in on your money turning to zero. Schwab will zero you out as the market's going up. If you've got 3 million in the market and it grows, grows by 10%, right. S&P, fun life is good. Your 3 million goes up by 300,000. Right. Well, you only have a million in the deal. So your million really went up by 300,000. That's a pretty good trade. That's a 30% return. That's fantastic. But it also works the other way around. If your portfolio goes down 20%, you don't go from a million to 800. You go from a million to 400. You get the excess decline as well. So there is some math to suggest that you should always be levered two to one because eventually it works out. But it's like one of those things where you have to be right and you have to be in at the right time. If you would have started this in, like, 2011 and been levered 3 to 1 on the S and P since then, you'd be a gazillionaire. That'd be fantastic. If you would have started this on March 1st of 2020, right before COVID went down 30%, 17 trading days, you'd be. You'd be zeroed out. Because that's a great.
- [35:24]
Joe Saul-Sehy
That's a great point, OG this is not a question of can this work?
- [35:28]
OG
Yeah.
- [35:28]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Because the answer to Basic Capital's solution here is, yeah, heck, if you're gonna have $4 of somebody else's money and a dollar somebody else's money I put back on the screen. For people watching the video of this, they have this.
- [35:44]
OG
Yeah, you just get to the mountain faster.
- [35:46]
Joe Saul-Sehy
See Mountain graph.
- [35:48]
OG
I love it.
- [35:48]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Which I think the SEC that's helpful. With the SEC like this, you've got the little pink person who's slowly going up the mountain, and you've got the lightning bolt, which is going up way, way, way faster. See, how come they don't show that as a Grand Canyon where you're going down faster on the other side. But the words around this. Check this out, guys. Basic capital enables employees to opt in to have more capital working for them, enabling them to. This is my favorite word. This is the word the SEC wants to see potentially build more wealth. Your honor. Will, we said potentially. We didn't promise a thing.
- [36:28]
OG
Yeah, at five to one. Back to my example. If you have a million dollars and some places will do this, like I said, you can go to 9 to 1 in some places. So you go 5 to 1 and you're going to invest 5 million bucks or 4 million extra dollars. So you've got 5 million total. The market grows by 10%. This year, your million turned into 1.5. Like you get all the up. That's fantastic. But a minus 20 on 5 million is how much?
- [36:52]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Minus 20%'s a million.
- [36:54]
OG
And you only had a million. So you're out, you're done, you're back to zero. Because Schwab doesn't go like, oh, we'll take the hit with you, buddy. High five. We'll get fight another day. They take. They're like, no, we got our four mil. We're good. And oh, by the way, you also owe 6% interest every month that you or every year that you had that 4 mil. So the interest payment alone ought to pucker some people up. It's only $20,000 a month of interest. You know, pocket change to guys like you. But for the rest of us, this.
- [37:23]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Totally screams of that parody that you and I saw quite a few years ago on south park where the dad takes his son in to get just something he thinks is a very safe investment. Do I really have to do this, dad? Stan, now more than ever, you need.
- [37:42]
OG
To understand the importance of saving money.
- [37:44]
Joe Saul-Sehy
But grandma said I could use this money to buy whatever I want.
- [37:46]
OG
Okay, next please.
- [37:47]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Go on.
- [37:48]
OG
Stanley.
- [37:50]
Joe Saul-Sehy
How can I help you, young man? I got a hundred dollar check from my grandma and my dad said I need to put it in the bank so it can grow over the years. Well, that's fantastic. A really smart decision, young man. We can put that check in a money market mutual fund, then we'll reinvest the earnings into foreign currency accounts with compounding interest and. It's gone. What? It's gone. It's all gone. What's all gone? The money in your account. It didn't do too well. It's Gone.
- [38:16]
OG
It didn't do too well.
- [38:20]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I feel like that's what happens at the end.
- [38:23]
OG
I mean it's all about timing.
- [38:24]
Joe Saul-Sehy
It is about timing.
- [38:25]
OG
If you time it outright, you're going to be super happy that it works.
- [38:28]
Joe Saul-Sehy
If you want to go to Las Vegas with your 401k, well, check this out. I'm going to go back to their website because when you click on four individuals, it has this big, big banner that says more financial power. Increase your investing power. The only platform that. Wait for it. Supplements your contribution with additional buying power. Get $4 of financing for every dollar you contribute. Okay, we scroll down. So they talk about how cool it is to get $5 of borrowing power for every dollar you contribute. We go down again. Simple passive index investing. Ooh. Oh gee. Those are terms I've heard before and I like. So now I'm getting five to one plus with index investing.
- [39:07]
OG
That's Keep going, keep going. It gets better. There's a really fun line that they.
- [39:10]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Get to a one click backdoor Roth ira. So you know this pain in the ass called, called Ducks bomb.
- [39:17]
OG
Keep going, keep going. The next line's the best that looks easy.
- [39:21]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And then now we have pricing. How does the pricing work?
- [39:25]
OG
OG Yeah, I don't really even care about that. Keep going.
- [39:28]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, subscription fees, $0 per month with accounts funded only by bank accounts. $25 if it's rolled over from existing 401 s and IRAs. Half a percent management fee. Financing costs 6.25% on that loan that they're giving you, plus 5% of the gains paid directly from your investment only they're going to take 5% of the gain and they're going to charge you 6.25.
- [39:56]
OG
Keep going, keep going.
- [39:57]
Joe Saul-Sehy
The orange part because everyone deserves a trust fund, baby.
- [40:04]
OG
I love it.
- [40:05]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Wow.
- [40:07]
OG
They are speaking to me. They know my love language.
- [40:09]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Shane. Shane, you hit it man. You hit it. Nice job, Shane. Yeah, I would say, OG maybe steer clear of this.
- [40:17]
OG
Yeah, probably.
- [40:18]
Joe Saul-Sehy
And yet what did we have on the, on the show last week? More and more companies going. You know what we need? We need more betting inside your 401k. So you know it's coming. It's coming. You're gonna have all the opportunities to lose all your money as fast as you want.
- [40:33]
OG
Yeah.
- [40:34]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Inside your 401k.
- [40:35]
OG
You can do it.
- [40:36]
Doug
If we've got DraftKings and FanDuel all over professional sports, why not bring it.
- [40:41]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Into our 401k by this professional sports teams and by ESPN. Yeah, yeah. It's Great. Anyway, thanks, Sean, for taking part in our brand new We Just Got a letter segment. We prefer the voicemails though. And so because of that, Sean, unfortunately you don't get any cool stacking Benjamin Swag. We leave that for the people that call in. But that was awesome. Thank you very much. Last segment today before we head out to the back porch is one that we like to call the Tick Tock minute. And this is where we shine a light on a TikTok creator who's either sharing something brilliant or air quotes brilliant. Doug, you think we got some brilliance today?
- [41:18]
Doug
Yes.
- [41:20]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yes we do, Joe. Yes, we do. This is a gentleman who works at a car dealership and he is talking about when to assess the timing on getting your new car. And I'd like to get both of your your takes on this. So when he's he's going to start off with add up your bills, he's only talking about bills related to car maintenance. All right, so that's going to be a little confusing, but he's talking about bills related to car maintenance. This is the math equation he believes.
- [41:48]
OG
Add up your last 24 months worth of bills and divide it by 24. Can take out your oil filter changes because it doesn't matter if it's new or used, you got to change oil on it. Divide your total two years worth of receipts by 24.
- [42:04]
Joe Saul-Sehy
If it's close to a new car.
- [42:05]
OG
Payment, it's time to get a new car. If on an average you're spending 100 bucks or 200 bucks, keep the car. It's worth it.
- [42:14]
Joe Saul-Sehy
So he's saying that if your monthly expense over the last two years of your monthly maintenance bill has been the same as a new car payment, buy the new car and pay the car payment. Forget about the maintenance on the car.
- [42:26]
OG
I think this is a little backward looking and harder to predict the future, but I can see the logic behind it. In fact, this was kind of the thing that was a deciding factor when we sold one car and bought the minivan that we have several, whatever, seven, eight years ago. Now. What I found about car maintenance in my personal experience anyway, is that it's very lumpy. It's not like it's, I think that's $100 a month.
- [42:50]
Joe Saul-Sehy
But I think that's why he's saying two years OG yeah, yeah, that's why he's pulling it back. Yeah.
- [42:54]
OG
But my point is, so the car's on the fritz and you bring it in and they go, okay, well all the blinker fluid Needs to get changed and all the air needs to get rotated. It's going to be five grand. And you're like, all right, five grand, what's the choice? At that point, you just. You literally pushed it into the maintenance bay. So now the question is, is there another five grand coming, or is that one my last one for the foreseeable future? You know, that's unknown, and you can't.
- [43:18]
Doug
Predict that, but let's say you do. Let's say you have another five grand, and it's unlikely. I went through this OG and I have talked about this several times offline. We had a car, a vehicle that was like that, that my son was using, the Finturn was using.
- [43:31]
OG
We had the same car, as a matter of fact.
- [43:33]
Doug
Yeah, when. When Finturn was in school, in college, and we just needed basically something to get him from home back to school for, you know, vacations and stuff. But let's say you had two of those 5,000, one each year you're 10 grand divided by 24 is 500 bucks a month. There aren't a lot of new cars you're getting for 500 bucks a month. You could go get another used car for 10 grand that would, you know, wash out to be 500 bucks a month. But now you're trading in the devil you don't know for the devil you do know. And so it gets really tricky in there. I don't know. I like his logic, but it's pretty high maintenance cost before you can say, yeah, I think we're at new car, because new cars now are in, like, the 700amonth range for not a super, super nice car. I don't think, unless you're going really.
- [44:24]
OG
Big, I think you can probably find them for much less than that. But just another thought to this, Doug. You and I have talked about this as well. We've got a driver or, you know, a young man who's going to be driving shortly.
- [44:36]
Doug
I thought he was a driver. He declared it.
- [44:39]
OG
No, no, I'm talking about William. Alex is already driving. So the question is, do we go by the beater air quotes? You know, that's what. What's a reasonable cost for a beater car? Seven grand? Ten?
- [44:53]
Doug
Yeah. If you really say beater.
- [44:54]
OG
Yeah.
- [44:55]
Doug
I mean, you could go, you want a 92 Chevy.
- [44:57]
OG
The further down you go, the more you're going to have to take it into the shop. So what's better, the $10,000 thing that you're going to maybe put some money into? Because the devil you don't know. Or the $299 a month lease for the next three years.
- [45:13]
Doug
Well, but you're talking leasing and I thought the premise of this was buying.
- [45:18]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, well, but the issue I have with leasing and new drivers has nothing to do with that. It's the fact that both of my kids had fender benders.
- [45:28]
OG
Absolutely. They're going to.
- [45:29]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Well, and not even. We actually total the car, too.
- [45:32]
OG
We've done that also. But there's all the safety features on the new cars. You know, all the lane keep assists and the emergency braking. And does that help? I don't, I don't know if it does or doesn't. Is the insurance cost a little bit less expensive because it has all those features or is it more because it's a new vehicle? I don't know. It's a no win situation, basically.
- [45:51]
Joe Saul-Sehy
I think there is. I found that interesting. By the way, thanks to Julie for sending that to us. Sam, what do you think about this? My answer, like yours is, I don't know. I could see his logic. It's a fine, fine starting place.
- [46:01]
Doug
It's a good starting place. I think there's, you know, 22 other little factors that you can bring into it, but it's a good starting place.
- [46:07]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, thanks for that. I think that Shane's letter and thanking Julie, I think that's our back porch for the day, guys. Looking at the time. Big thanks to all of you for hanging out. Coming up on Wednesday, man, Wednesday we're going to have some fun. We got the creators of this new documentary called Join or Die. You can watch it on Netflix and if you want to watch it ahead of time, go watch it. And then you can hear some of the behind the scenes and how this impacts your retirement plan and it impacts it in a big, big way. By the way, the documentary, if you do decide to watch it, the first half is not at all about longevity and then they switch gears halfway through. So enjoy the first half. And if you're like, what does this have to do with my retirement? Hang on. They'll. They'll get there. All right, Doug, you take it from here, man. What should we have learned on today's episode?
- [46:56]
Doug
Well, Joe, first, take some advice from Joe and OG Setting up your retirement distributions works best when you begin with the end in mind. And where have I heard that before? Begin with your goal and then set up your funds to reach that goal. Second, leveraging your retirement funds. Buyer beware. But the big lesson, get this, those damn kids in the street now are saying that they have to go home and work on their homework.
- [47:22]
OG
Homework?
- [47:23]
Doug
When I was a kid, I never let homework get in the way of messing around. Now that I think about it though, maybe that's how I ended up hosting a podcast from my buddy's mom's basement. Hey, on second thought, kids, go do your homework. Join us Wednesday as we shift gears to talk about retirement, longevity and happiness. Want to be happy in retirement? The makers of a new documentary share how. Pete and Rebecca Davis join us to share messages from Join or die. We'll see you back here then. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Joe Saul Sehi. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome team@st.stackingbenjamins.com along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.
- [48:16]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, yeah.
- [48:17]
Doug
And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see. See you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show. Sam.
- [49:28]
Joe Saul-Sehy
You know, Og, I think some people might wonder where the idea of blink of fluid and rotate the air in your tires comes from. Of course, those jokes have been around for a long time. But a show that is across the country, I've had the fantastic experience of being on because my, my dad was a big fan of these guys, Bob and Tom. Bob and Tom had this hilarious segment called the Mr. Obvious Show. Because here, Bob and Todd before. Oh, gee, you've heard Bob and Tom, right?
- [49:58]
OG
It's been a long, long, long, long time.
- [50:00]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, Doug.
- [50:01]
Doug
Of course, I used to live in Indiana. They're gods there.
- [50:03]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. And they're still on stations all over.
- [50:06]
Doug
All over the country.
- [50:07]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, Bob is long gone, but Tom and the team are still there. But do yourself a favor and watch some of those clips on YouTube. There's some funny stuff from the Mr. Obvious show. I went and saw a Marvel movie, guys. I've been to see a Marvel movie in forever. I'm kind of afraid to see Marvel movies because they were just. They suck so bad.
- [50:23]
Doug
Yeah, you keep saying that.
- [50:24]
OG
That's all I watched this weekend was they had all of the Captain America movies and they were just, you know, it was a kind of rainy day in Ellis.
- [50:32]
Doug
So there's More than one?
- [50:34]
OG
Oh, yeah, there's four now.
- [50:35]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah. Cheryl actually saw the last one on a plane that we decided not to go see. It got decent reviews and she actually said it was pretty good there. Believe it or not, they're back to the old days of there's just a bad person doing bad things and the superhero goes and gets the bad person. But, but I watched Thunderbolts, went to the theater and watched that and what a fun movie. Really good Marvel movie, Pretty straightforward. Gets a little deep into depression and the kind of the. The downside to depression.
- [51:04]
Doug
That sounds fun.
- [51:05]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, but layered in a bunch of comedy. Frances Pugh, by the way, is one of the main actors and she's. This woman's so versatile. I've seen her in a few movies now and she's incredible. She's one of the Russian superheroes. So. Thunderbolts, Big thumb up for me. What have you guys been watching?
- [51:24]
OG
Nothing.
- [51:27]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Doug's been watching nothing.
- [51:29]
Doug
I was waiting because Josh was just talking about Captain America or Mr. America or, I don't know, Mr. America.
- [51:36]
Joe Saul-Sehy
He's a big fan. I thought he was the Americas.
- [51:40]
Doug
We just finished watching a documentary on Hulu called. Well, it was about Ruby Frankie. I want to say it was like the devil in the house or the devil inside the Ruby Frankie Story. But she was the YouTube vlogger who had millions of followers as parenting guru and turns out she wasn't all there in the head and she eventually went crazy and abused her children. Oh, yeah. But it was, it was a well done documentary. I really didn't think I was going to enjoy that at all when it was suggested.
- [52:13]
Joe Saul-Sehy
But it was compelling, huh?
- [52:16]
Doug
Yeah, I would say probably a little bit better than the Mormon Wives. Oh my God. I mean, look, I'll watch some trashy tv.
- [52:26]
Joe Saul-Sehy
No way. Did you watch that?
- [52:28]
Doug
I've been made to watch that.
- [52:29]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Oh, no need to watch it.
- [52:31]
Doug
Holy cow. It is. It is so difficult. It's just women who've been over engineered, they're keeping the plastic surgery industry alive in Utah and they're just arguing with each other nonstop for two seasons, 10 episodes a season. It's just so hard. I just have it in the background while I watch the Tiger Game on my iPad. And just hearing all of that vitriol just drives me crazy.
- [52:59]
Joe Saul-Sehy
Yeah, I tried to watch a new Netflix show, one of those real estate shows called Selling the City. And I normally like those real estate shows and it's just a bunch of women fighting with each other from the very beginning. Cheryl literally walked into the kitchen while I had it on. I was making some food. And she goes, I've been in this room for three minutes and they're annoying. Walked. Walked right out. It was such bad tv. I. Big thumbs down for selling the city.