Should You Actually Use a Catastrophic Health Plan? (& more questions from YOU!) SB1762

Summary

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Podcast Summary – The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: Should You Actually Use a Catastrophic Health Plan? (& more questions from YOU!) SB1762
Date: November 17, 2025
Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy and OG, with CFP Anna Alum
Main Theme: A listener mailbag episode focused on open enrollment decisions, healthcare planning, 529 plan withdrawals, and long-term stock market risk, blending practical advice with humor.

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Overview

This episode dives into real-life financial questions submitted by listeners, centering on timely topics like catastrophic health insurance plans, tricky payment schedules for 529 drawdowns, and fears about U.S. stock market stagnation. The hosts Joe, OG, and Anna Alum break down the pros, cons, and pitfalls with their signature wit and candid discussion. Highlights include actionable strategies for health plan selection, timing 529 withdrawals for off-campus rent, and staying resilient in the face of long-term market uncertainty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catastrophic Health Coverage: Should You Consider It?

Listener Kevin’s Question:
Kevin (41, self-employed, $100k/year, $40k in HSA) wonders if it makes sense to switch to catastrophic coverage, leveraging his HSA to self-insure smaller expenses, while new government rules expand Catastrophic plan eligibility.
(13:00–27:30)

• Defining the Landscape

  • Joe explains that HSAs require high-deductible plans, allowing users to save for future care. Catastrophic coverage sits at the extreme, covering only major events. (13:45)
  • Recent government guidance expands catastrophic plan access, by lowering hardship thresholds—great for healthy, financially prepared people like Kevin. (15:30)

• Risks and Considerations

  • OG: “Ultimately this will be a great decision in the rearview mirror or a terrible decision. There's just not a way to predict...what sort of healthcare needs you will have throughout a calendar year.” (16:44)
  • Anna notes: Each year is a new risk period; pre-existing conditions exclusions are gone, so if something changes, you can adjust coverage for the next year. (24:46)

• Tips

  • Be brutally honest about your lifestyle and risk tolerance. (18:50)
  • Always ask healthcare providers about cash options and alternative facilities—sometimes the “insurance price” is far higher. OG shares an MRI story: “If your insurance covers it, it's $5,000, or you can pay cash—$325.” (21:01)
  • Government expects premium increases in 2026—plan accordingly. “In our budgets, you need to plan on a hell of a lot more money.” – Joe (27:15)

• Summary Advice

  • If you’re ahead on your goals, Joe advises against gambling: “Why would we take the risk if there's no need?” (25:15)
  • For the well-informed, healthy, and prepared, catastrophic plans can be a good choice—but understand the gamble.

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2. 529 Plan Withdrawals: Dealing with Odd Payment Schedules

Listener Kate’s Question:
Kate’s daughter’s off-campus housing requires lease payments split between two calendar years, with odd prepayment timing. How can she withdraw funds compliantly?
(27:42–37:33)

• Rules Recap

  • 529 withdrawals must be for “qualified educational expenses” (tuition, room & board, etc.) and should sync as closely as possible with when those expenses are incurred.

• Key Insight

  • Anna: “In terms of reimbursing yourself through your 529, I think you just do it when you pay for it…It's not necessarily like when the service is rendered…but when you actually pay for it.” (30:53)
  • Joe reads from the IRS: “If you’re paying for a semester in advance, you can withdraw funds before the payment is due because you're making the qualified expense.” (34:36)

• Practical Guidance

  • Reimburse yourself in the same calendar year as the payment for ease and record-keeping.
  • Keep careful records, even if audits are rare. OG: “Maintain careful records, Kate, just to make sure you’re not the first [to run into issues].” (35:56)
  • If the payment schedule is odd (e.g., January rent due in December), pay early to avoid limbo.

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3. Long-Term Stock Market Risk: The "Lost Decade" Fear

Listener Vijay’s Question:
Given that Japan’s Nikkei index took 34 years to recover, should U.S. investors worry about similar “lost decade” scenarios, or are there structural differences in our economy?
(42:11–55:19)

• Historical Perspective

  • OG: Points out that the U.S. had its own “lost decade” (2000-2010); these events are real, but rare.
  • “If you go back in time, there was some other issues going on in Japan...very unrealistic valuations. Different economies go through phases.” (44:46)

• Actionable Takeaways

  • Diversify and rebalance. “It's in staying even [with your allocations] that we avoid this.” – Joe (48:07)
  • Dollar-cost average. Continuing to buy through downturns generates gains from volatility, even if the market treads water. (48:07)
  • Long-term discipline matters: “The cost of being an equity investor…is you have to see this happen…And the key is to do the same thing that got you [your gains] before.” – OG (52:22)

• Mindset Shift

  • Anna: You can’t opt out of risk entirely—cash and bonds won't keep up with inflation for retirement. The only solution is to keep investing and stay flexible. (47:17)
  • OG’s rally: “Make a chart year by year of the chaos that's happened since you were born! And then look at where the S&P is today … you’d never have invested, but those who did won.” (52:22)

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4. Listener Community, Charity, and Lighthearted Banter

Throughout

• Regular jabs at friendly rival podcast "How to Money" and updates on the podcast’s Voices for Good peer-giving challenge, benefitting financial literacy charity GiftingSense.org. (7:56, 58:27)
• Trivia Break: What’s the most counterfeited denomination of U.S. currency? (Spoiler: $20 bill, domestically). Anna nails it; OG debates sources. (37:45–44:44)
• Fun with kids, cats, and off-topic banter keeps the financial lessons accessible and relatable.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You have to be invested, or you’re going to get nowhere in your financial plan. You’ll be working forever.” – Anna Alum (47:17)
• “This will be a great decision in the rearview mirror or a terrible decision. …It’s always a gamble when it comes to catastrophic coverage.” – OG (16:44)
• “If actuaries, the smartest people in insurance, go, ‘yeah, this could blow up on you,’ that’s a much bigger Achilles’ heel.” – Joe (20:25)
• “If you don’t invest in equities, your only other option is to save all the money you could possibly need for all of your retirement in cash. Newsflash: you’d still not have enough.” – OG (52:22)
• “Why would we take the risk [of catastrophic plans] if there’s no need?” – Joe (25:15)
• “Make a chart year by year of the chaos that’s happened... Then look at where the S&P is today and tell me you wouldn’t have invested — but those who did won.” – OG (52:22)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 13:00 – Kevin’s catastrophic health plan question
• 24:46 – Annual risk and health insurance flexibility (Anna)
• 27:42 – Kate’s 529 drawdown confusion
• 34:36 – IRS guidance on 529 withdrawal timing
• 42:11 – Vijay’s “lost decade”/Japan stock market worry
• 52:22 – OG’s motivational (and statistical) argument for long-term investing
• 37:45 & 44:44 – Trivia: Most counterfeited U.S. currency
• 58:27 – Charity challenge and friendly trash talk with “How to Money”

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Style & Tone

• Casual, witty, with plenty of gentle ribbing between hosts and engaging “basement table” vibes.
• Answers are always layered—practical strategies first, peppered with personal stories and humor.
• Advice is practical but interwoven with caveats and reminders to stay true to best practices (recordkeeping, diversification, risk assessments).

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Conclusion

This episode delivers actionable, practical answers to timely listener questions about health insurance, education funding logistics, and investing for the long run. Peppered with humor, listener shout-outs, and friendly rivalry, it’s a high-value listen for anyone navigating health coverage choices or feeling market anxiety heading into 2026.

Charity Plug: Join the community at stackingbenjamins.com/stackinghope to support youth financial literacy — and maybe win sweet iHeart Music Festival prizes while you’re at it!

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Transcript

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. We're proud to serve over 2 million veterans and their families because your service inspires ours and your service opens the door to membership, which means you get access to exclusive rates, discounts and financial tools that you can share with your whole family. Become a member@navy federal.org veterans and from all of us. Happy Veterans Day, Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by ncua. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money. When you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. It is Monday morning in Texarkana, and you know what? I just got back from taking the cat to the vet, and you know how.

[OG]

Boy, are my arms tired.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wrong joke. Almost nailed it. Almost nailed it. But the poor guy, he's 15 years old and he's freaked out by all the construction, so he stopped grooming himself. We had to talk to Doug about that before, by the way, about grooming himself. But he's got these rats nests on his belly that we can't get out. So he's very unhappy with me right now. So I came here to make friends. Oh, gee.

[OG]

Okay. Can't have Cooper mad at you. It's a bad day. He can ruin your life in more ways than you can imagine.

[Kate]

He.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

He has before.

[OG]

It's like new floor.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I have a solution.

[OG]

Claim this little section right here, as a matter of fact.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Did I tell you about. We always get him help. Now he needs medicines and stuff because he's. He's an old guy. But before that, we used to be able to leave him for two days, maybe three days. Did I tell you what happened, og when we tried to leave him for four days?

[OG]

No.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

One time we left him for four days and just gave him a bunch of food, a bunch of water. He was fine. Everything was there. He. We come in the front door after being on this long weekend trip, and he just looks at us. He star. He's. He's like the angry mom when you're home past curfew, like 20 minutes late. You know how mom gets.

[OG]

Yeah, I'm not mad. I'm just disappointed.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Exactly. And he Just starts. He just starts meowing in a way that is clearly bitching at me, just completely complaining at me. And then he walks away. And then my cat, who has never done this before and never done this since, takes a sh. On my pillow. Yeah, no, right in the middle of my pillow. And it was. Message received.

[OG]

We would find a new place for the kitty.

[Anna Alum]

Yeah, kitty would need to go to a farm.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, he was going to find a new place for us all cat lovers said you're hate mail, too. Oh, gee. And Hannah.

[OG]

Well, on that note, I mean, they go sometimes, right? I mean, it's.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. You know, happens.

[OG]

Our cat was 19.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

19. That. Man, that's old. Yeah, that's great. That's a. That's life well lived right there for a cat. You know, it's a life well lived when you can play all weekend and the men and women of our armed forces are taking care of.

[OG]

Your biggest concern is your cat, Right?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Exactly.

[OG]

Not the security of the nation.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I don't have to worry about that at all. So why don't we salute our troops, everybody, like we do on Mondays. Our first Monday back. So raise your mugs, everyone. On behalf of the men and women making podcasts at Mom's Basement and the men and women at Navy Federal Credit Union serving our veterans, our active service members and their families, here's the people that kept us safe all weekend have kept us safe in the past.

[OG]

Cheers.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thanks to you.

[Anna Alum]

Cheers.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Let's go stack some Benjamins for another eight weeks, shall we?

[OG]

Stacking them. Here's the song that we'd like to.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Do for all the younger set of.

[OG]

People, the teenagers and what have you. This one's called Vacation Zol.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And let's kick off another eight weeks of shows with the best star of the show ever.

[OG]

You.

[Doug]

Today we're diving deep into the mailbag with questions from stackers Kate, VJ and Kevin. We'll tackle their questions on the stock market open enrollment, 529 drawdowns and healthcare planning. Nice job, Stackers. You guys have way better questions than the ones they ask over on how to money. So lame over there. I'll also share a TikTok minute that's sure to delight. And then I'll also share some incredibly shareable trivia. So much sharing, you know. Cause sharing is caring. And now, here come three people who woke up on the. Let's answer your Questions, side of the bed this morning. It's Joe, OG and CFP Anna llum.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Hey there, Stackers, and happy Monday to you. We're so happy to be back. We are rested and ready and you know what? It's time for us to answer some of your questions. If you here to help. Well, here to actually do all the heavy lifting.

[OG]

I was going to say here to do the work.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm not going to answer the questions. These five people are. Let's say hi to Og. Did you have a good week off, my friend?

[OG]

I did, as a matter of fact, I. I spent the entire week golfing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, that's tough.

[OG]

I know.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I feel so bad.

[OG]

It's a rough life. Somebody's got to do it. I mean, if that handicap ain't going to make itself go up, you have to play to make it go up.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Got to work hard to get in the weeds and in the pond and in the sand trap. Got to focus to. To be that bad. Well, we went to Dollywood a few weeks ago. Dolly Parton. OG has this fantastic quote that they have on mugs and merchandise that says it takes a lot of money to look this trashy.

[OG]

It ain't cheap being rich. That's what we said.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It ain't cheap being bad at golf. You got to spend a lot of money to be bad at golf. And somebody, I don't know if she plays golf or not. Anna Alum is back with us. Anna, good to see you, my friend.

[Anna Alum]

Good to see you too. Happy to be here.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Do you play golf?

[Anna Alum]

I haven't played this past year, but pre kids, we were playing lots and lots of golf. I actually was on my high school golf team.

[OG]

Oh yeah. Anna would beat the living snot out.

[Kate]

Of all of us.

[OG]

She's like, I haven't played in a year. I shot a 78. I mean, I was way off.

[Anna Alum]

Haven't shot in the 70s yet.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's like my, my friend who said, do you want to play darts? And he's just nailing it. I'm like, I'm like, have you played? He goes, he goes, oh, I haven't played in like five years. And then it turns out he was on like a semi professional dart league and still.

[OG]

Ted Lasso.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes. Even after all of those bad times. But isn't it funny, Anna, Back to kids, because I think people heard that loud and clear.

[OG]

How you can ruin everything.

[Kate]

Thank you.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You could define your life. Like pre kids. I used to have fun.

[Anna Alum]

I used to play golf for 16 hours a week.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You never knew how good you had it. Did you?

[Anna Alum]

No.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No.

[Anna Alum]

Enjoy it while you can.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Our friend Scott Galloway, who's been on the show a couple times, have said kids will completely destroy your life. And by the way, there's nothing better than that. There is nothing better. And I agree with every, every part of that sentiment.

[OG]

I love my three little Ferraris. Amazing.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That's so expensive and yet so adorable. Much more adorable than Joel and Matt over at how to money, by the way. And the reason we talk about Joel and Matt so much is a because they're kind of annoying because they're so damn nice. But also because of the fact that we are in this month long deathmatch to raise. Do you like how I called it a death match? Like, you got to raise the stakes OG this year long, year long, month long deathmatch with them to raise money for good. It's called the Voices for good challenge. There's seven different podcasts. Some of these are big name podcasters, but we don't care about them. Joel and Matt are involved and we just have to make sure that the world knows that our stacker community is way more giving than the how to money community. We're helping a wonderful organization called GiftingSense.org teach children financial literacy make better financial decisions early on, right at the time when the dopamine hit is biggest in your brain and you're feeling all the feels right and you're making decisions about how the rest of your life is going to be. Am I going to be somebody who's a spender or somebody who maybe can think about it? Karen has this wonderful thing called the does it make sense score.

[OG]

That wasn't a question.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

If only it had been around. OG when we were middle schoolers, it would have been.

[OG]

I still would have picked what I pick. I am who I am.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It would have been so much different. But they have the does it make sense score. Go back and listen to me. Talk to the wonderful economist and leader of the Gifting Sense group, Karen Holland. So stackingbenjamins.com stacking hope. Stackingbenjamins.com stacking Hope gets you there. Let's help raise money. And by the way, we're kicking out of money's butt right now, which is awesome. I think we got it on Wednesday. OG we got to, we got to say, like, if we reach $5,000, we'll do X. Like maybe we'll do a zoom Q and A thing, something like that. I don't know. We'll chat about it and come up with something on Wednesday. But for now we're going to answer your question Stacker. So grab a piece of paper, your iPad, whatever you use to take notes because we're going to dive into a bunch of topics that are foremost in your mind today. Going to hear from a couple sponsors that make sure we can keep on keeping on and you don't pay anything for any of this goodness. So we're going to hear from them and then og Anna and maybe a little bit from me. We we will answer your questions. This message is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. As the holiday season rolls around, we know that you strive to do everything you can to bring cheer and joy to your loved ones and is a credit union dedicated to serving all veterans, active duty and their families. We understand that every little bit counts. That's why for a limited time you could earn a $250 cash bonus when you spend $2,500 with Navy Federal's Cash Rewards and Cash Rewards plus cards in the first 90 days. Of course, Stackers, this is part of a big financial plan, right? Don't get yourself into debt. Make sure that you are spending and saving with a plan. But you know what? The giving doesn't stop there. You could also earn up to 2% unlimited cash back with these cards. So saving up for whatever the season brings just got a little easier. Give joy, get joy. Join now@navy federal.org Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. Visit navy federal.org cash rewards for details. Cash back terms and conditions apply. Offer ends January 1, 2026. It's time for Black Friday, Dell Technologies biggest sale of the year. Enjoy huge savings on select PCs like the Dell 16 plus, featuring Intel Core Ultra processors and with built in advanced features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster and with built in advanced features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster. Plus earn Dell Rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, price match guarantee and expert support. They have huge deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC and make perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop [e-mail] deals our first question, let's open it up with some healthcare. Healthcare in the news by the way. We'll get to that in a second.

[OG]

Just thinking about that that time. Yeah, I'm just going to play the bury my head in the sand game.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, Kevin doesn't want to do that og so let's hear what he's wondering.

[Kevin]

Hey Doug and Paula, this is Kevin from Maine, longtime listener, fourth time caller. I'm 41, self employed, make around 100,000 a year and feel on track for my goals thanks to everything I've learned from the show. I have a big question about open enrollment and Doug, I'm not talking about singles night down at the Sizzler, so settle down. I have $40,000 invested in my HSA from years of using the high deductible plans. And because I'm in good health with no recurring medical costs at present, I'd like to purchase catastrophic coverage with the highest deductible possible. So far, this is only available to those under 30 or with a hardship exemption. I don't think I qualify for those, but HHS just released some new guidance seeming to expand who's eligible for catastrophic coverage. I'm kind of lost in the terminology being used and want to know what you guys think about this. Am I an idiot for looking at catastrophic coverage? If I qualify under the new rules, I could easily cover the out of pocket maximum from my HSA for the next few years if things went really off the rails. But what am I missing here? Thanks for all you do with the show to raise financial literacy for all of us.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Appreciate it, Kevin, thank you so much. And by the way, congratulations on doing a great job of saving early on and for the kind words. Nice work there, brother. Let's dive in. And for all of our new stackers, there's a lot going on here. So Anna and og, before you guys dive in, I want to just kind of define really what he's looking at because we might have lost a quarter of our audience even with this question. So he's been saving money into something called an hsa. It's a health savings account. For that, you're allowed to put money in. You have to have a high deductible plan that matches with the hsa. You put money in and then you can choose a plan that has a high deductible so that you then pay out of pocket. And if you're fairly healthy, you end up hopefully paying less for your health care. Well, Kevin wants to go even further because he's been so healthy that money has accumulated in his account and he's wondering if he goes to just catastrophic coverage, something, the wheels completely come off the bus. That's all it's going to cover. And he's got enough money sitting in that hsa. So he's betting here that he's going to either continue to be healthy or that he has enough money now the government has changed the rules. He mentioned that the government changed the rules on who's eligible for these catastrophic plans. And that is absolutely true. The government looks at your family's income compared to something called the federal poverty level and that's a number to figure out who's going to need help. So if your income is too low below 100% of the poverty level, you are not going to qualify for catastrophic coverage help, but you're going to get help in many, many other areas. If your income is too high above 400% of the federal poverty level, you're not going to get help. But that's because you're not going to get help from the government because they feel like you have enough income coming in that you can pay for this yourself. So those are kind of the constraints that have been moving just a little bit. You can get hardship exemptions if you don't qualify or you can sign up for catastrophic coverage, which is what Kevin wants to do. Kevin wants to get the exemption to be able to qualify for catastrophic coverage. The center for Medicare and Medicaid Services, they run the programs and here's what they're doing. They're making it easier for people who don't qualify to get that hardship. Now people who make more than 250% instead of 400%, 250% of the poverty level still don't qualify for this help. They would be able to possibly get some help. So they're extending it to more people. Kevin's hoping, guys, that he fits this. Assuming that he does, he thinks he should do it. Og, do you think that if he qualifies for catastrophic healthcare, which is much cheaper now that he has all this money saved in hsa, is there something he's missing? Should he do it?

[OG]

Well, ultimately it's going to come down to this will be a great decision in the rearview mirror or a terrible decision. Unfortunately, there's just not a way to predict what sort of healthcare needs one's going to need throughout a calendar year. You know, this is an open enrollment time generally for most people. I saw an article the other day that said, you know, we standardize so much stuff. Why in the heck can't we standardize when open enrollment is for every company so that every company has the same 45 day period? Like that would be so much better for everybody involved.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Even the people in hr, Right? Even the people administering benefits. Like everybody could work off the same calendar.

[OG]

Yeah, but the government open enrollment time is, I think we're in it right now, November 1st. Yeah. And it goes until December 14th.

[Anna Alum]

Yeah. 15ish. Around there.

[OG]

Somewhere in there. Don't wait till the last day, but it's somewhere in there. When it comes to picking the health insurance plans and I know, I think we all do this every single year, right? You sit down, you go, all right, 47 options, which one? You start winnowing down the ones that you go, all right, these ones definitely are out. And then it's just a gamble. It's like, am I going to have a big healthcare year, healthcare expense year, and if so, what does that look like if I go this route, if I project to have a low health care expense year, what does it look like if I go these routes? And you know what he's talking about here is coverage that is just basically going to cover like you need a new kidney. And I'm exaggerating a little bit. It's, it's a little bit better than that. But he's saying, hey, if I break an arm, if I have a cold, you know, if I need a flu shot, which flu shots are covered anyway, but you know, my normal physicals can be covered. But if I have some normal slip and fall type of thing, I'm going to cover that. But if I have some really crazy stuff, I need some back end coverage and that'll work out as long as it works out right. And we can't control or we can't even predict what's going to happen when we drive down the highway or a couple of weeks ago, that big tragedy in Louisville of there's a handful of people at work and all of a sudden an airplane smashes into your building. Crazy stuff happens. I think it's a fair bet, especially if you are proactive with your healthcare to say, hey, I'm going to do my physical, I'm going to exercise, I'm eating healthy, I've done the test to suggest that I'm on the right track. I think it's a fair bet. Now if you also say in my after school activities are, I play in a men's soccer league, I skydive and I rock climb. Okay, maybe you don't want to have just the catastrophic one. Maybe there's some chance that there's some other injuries that could happen or something. So this is always a tough debate and I can see arguments on both sides. I thought maybe when I saw this topic, I thought maybe he was going to talk about the med share programs and we've talked about this before that are starting to pop up again a little bit more frequently because of the rising costs of healthcare. And that's more of a gamble where you're just saying, hey, we're in this group association, whatever you want to say. And we all just kind of chip in when somebody has healthcare issues and that all. It sounds great until Johnny needs a new kidney and it's like $6 million, and, you know, that thing just doesn't exist. So be careful with that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. What I like about this is that Kevin, I think, understands the risk that he's asking. The fact that he's asking this question, he understands the risk. I feel like a lot of these medishare programs, people don't understand the risk of those programs. I mean, I've heard the advertisements on the radio. You've heard the advertisements. They just sound absolutely wonderful. But when you go to the front page of any of these programs, what's the first thing that it says in big letters?

[OG]

Not health insurance.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes. It's not health insurance, and it's not actuarial. Actuarial. Easy for me to say. Again, third time's actuarially sound.

[Vijay]

Yes.

[OG]

Close enough.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Good. We got it. Almost made it there. And those words, to the average person don't mean a lot.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But to the three of us, that means a lot. Like, if actuaries, the smartest people in insurance go, yeah, this could blow up on you. Like, that's a much bigger Achilles heel. So I don't like the way those are marketed. I don't mind people doing it if they know what the risk is. But I feel like most of the people doing these Medicare programs, no idea. They have no idea what risk they're taking.

[OG]

I feel like there's an opportunity that we have when it comes to healthcare to just ask the next question, which is, how much is this gonna cost? And go, is there another way to do it? And I've told these stories a couple of times, but many times have we had an opportunity where just by asking that, the doctor or whatever has said, oh, well, we could investigate this. This time last year, I tore my calf. I was at the doctor's, and he says, well, I think you should get an mri. I can get you in at such and such a place. And by the way, he proactively said this because he knew I was going to ask. He said, if your insurance covers it, it's going to fall under your deductible, which is for us, we have a high deductible plan, which means, you know, we're out of pocket on Whatever that number is. And it's whatever, you know, 5,000 bucks or something. Or you can pay cash and it's 325 bucks. And I'm like, well, why wouldn't, why would I have you guys go through all the extra steps of running it through the insurance? And I got to pay $3,500. I'm going to pay $300 to have this done with cash. There's a prescription medicine that I take that is 1500 bucks a month. And I said to the doctor, I'm like, this is insane. Is there another option? He's like, well, let me call the pharmacy. And he's like, hey, we got you a little coupon that supplied your accounts. $150 a month now. Yeah, I mean, I didn't, I just said, this is insane. Is there another thing we can do?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The disparity is amazing. Cheryl recently. Oh Gee had a procedure done and I went with her to the consultation and she just asked the nurse, she said, dude, what are my options having this done? And the nurse looked at her and goes, I wouldn't have it done here because this facility has a facility fee of $200 to have it here. And it's a. This is actually kind of a low cost, easy thing. She's like, I would go down to this clinic, that's a well known clinic in town. I would get it done there. And then you avoid a $200 fee that your insurance is not going to pay. The nurse working at the thing, just ask them. Ask the medical professional the question. I love that.

[OG]

Yeah. And a lot of times they don't know. My favorite story is when one of my kids broke their arm. I can't remember which kid it was. The first stop in the children's hospital is the payment thing. Like, how are you paying for about what's to happen? And I'm like, well, I don't even know what's going to happen. How do I know what to pay? Like, well, make your choice. Which door are you going through right now, the insurance door or the cash door? And I'm like, I don't even know what's wrong. I think he broke his arm, but I don't know.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's behind door number two.

[OG]

Like, like, how much does it cost? And the lady literally said, we won't know until we do it. And I said, that's fair, but let's assume that it's a broken arm and you have to cast it. Like, how much does that cost? And she's like, we don't know. I'm like, is this the first time you've ever done this? Is this, did it just open? Do you have not an idea of how much the supplies cost? Like, surely you've casted an arm of a nine year old before and you have roughly a general sense of how much time, energy and product that costs you. And she's like, well, you got to pay a deposit of 500 bucks if your insurance covers it, you know, whatever. And I said, okay, we'll pay cash, unless, you know, you need surgery or something, I don't know. And then I waited for this bill to come. Never came. I called and I said, did I miss a bill? And they said, no, you're good. I said, well, how much, how much was it? She's like, well, 500 bucks was good. Like, they didn't even know. They're like, we're good, you guys are fine, move along, nothing to see here. And I said, well, what would the insurance have been? And she said, if we ran it through, insurance would have been 2,500.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wow.

[OG]

And I understand there's more process, so it's going to cost more, whatever. So ask about the cash price. Ask, is there anything better you can do? Ask if there's another place that you can do your procedure at. To your point, Joe, because there's a thousand of those in your community, probably that will help offset some of the costs, even if you have to have a little bit better, more costly plan from a protection standpoint.

[Anna Alum]

And the thing is, it's for one year. The great thing about health insurance now is that for 2027 you can change your. If you have some sort of ongoing issue that pops up in 2026 and now you're on a medication that costs a lot of money, you can change your insurance for 2027. That's the great thing about health insurance now is, like, it doesn't take into account pre existing conditions. So it's a year of risk. And you know what the top line is going to be.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm going to take the other side of this, guys. I think this is the type of move that you consider when you're behind. Back when I was a financial planner, if I was with somebody that was behind, I would look at shortcuts like this and go, okay, can we roll the dice on this baby? And maybe we win on this thing. And if we do, and to both of your points, I think it's a very, it's a good risk. He knows what the downside is. I love all that, that's great. But I also think that if he's ahead, I would look you in the eye. Kevin and I go, why are we bothering with this? If you're good on your goals, let's just take the win and let's not take the risk that something really bad happens. And now I've got this Achilles heel there. If I, if I don't need to, if I don't need to take it, why would I. So that's, that was the first thing I thought when I heard this. Do we need to take that risk? Do we not need to take it? But if we do, I'm totally with OG and Anna, that it seems like you've really thought through it. I don't think you're missing anything. The big piece I think a lot of stackers don't know about. And I want to just mention this before we move off this topic. This is a good time to talk about health insurance as we come around to the end of the year. This comes to us from CMS.gov I'll link to it in the show notes. Expanding access to health insurance consumers to gain access to catastrophic health insurance plans in 2026 plan year. Exactly what we've been talking about. Kevin, you asked about these expanding benefits, but in their wording, this is the overview. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services is working to expand access to catastrophic health coverage in the federally facilitated exchange through additional hardship exemption guidance specifically designed to help consumers access coverage. Listen to the end of the sentence. As a result of the premium increases anticipated for the 2026 plan year. And the rest of this piece, guys, goes through the fact that this government agency thinks that in 2026 in our budgets, you need to plan on a hell of a lot more money.

[OG]

It's rocket ship. Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

A hell of a lot more money. So, man, if you're with us today, even if you're not working on what Kevin's working on, you're planning your budget for 2026 stackers health insurance. OG gonna be a problem.

[OG]

It's going up.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. Kevin, thank you for, for the call. And again, we'll link to that in the show notes@stacking benjamins.com let's move from health insurance to 529 plans. Sound like fun, guys?

[Anna Alum]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Anna, you're putting money, I would imagine, in 529 plans for.

[Anna Alum]

Yep.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

For some ankle biters.

[Anna Alum]

Yep. For a little, little baby.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

That is awesome. Let's hear from Kate, who is on the other Side of that, she's wondering about taking money out of the 529 plan.

[Kate]

Hey Doug, Joe and OG, this is Kate with the 529 plan drawdown question. My daughter is currently a sophomore in college and she recently signed a lease for a campus apartment next year. The payment structure in the lease is obnoxious. While the lease runs from August 2026 to May 2027, the first payment is due April 1, 2026, and the final payment is due on January 1, 2027. How do I handle this from a 529 drawdown perspective? Can I draw down the April to December 2026 payments in 2026 despite the fact that part of them are prepaying 2027 expenses? If yes, since the final payment is due on January 1, 2027, do I pay on January 1 and submit that drawdown in 2027? If not, do you have any suggestions or resources I can refer to as I try to renegotiate the payment schedule with the rental company? As a side note to an audience who might appreciate my gripe, I really wish that the drawdown requirements of 529 plans were more like an HSA or at least adhered to an academic calendar, which would align to the actual incurred expenses more directly. Thanks in advance for your response.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's so funny, Kate. I mean, this is very, very similar to the problem we have with open enrollment, right? Like, why do we have all this mumbo jumbo? But for people that don't know what we're talking about? Before Anna and OG tackle this one, let me tell everyone that's not sure exactly what Kate's asking about. So from a 529 plan, you have very specific reasons why you can take it out. Where an IRA or a 401k have certain time frames and tax consequences to taking the money out, you can take it out for whatever you want. At that point, nobody's looking over your shoulder. Well, with a 529 plan, they do. You need to have it come out for qualified education expenses if you wanted to be tax free. Those qualified expenses are things like tuition and fees. So the cost required for enrollment at at a university, a college, room and board for students enrolled at least half time if you live off campus, which is what Kate's talking about, the withdrawal cannot exceed the school's determined cost of attendance for room and board. So it's got to be within what the school says that it should cost for room and board. Books and supplies are included there and then Also, there's now up to $10,000 per year for K12 education. When you take money out, there's no limit for those college expenses. If you're going to take it out to pay off student loans, you can do that, but there's a $10,000 limit over the beneficiary's lifetime. And then of course, there's penalties. And this is what Kate's trying to avoid is penalties if you don't do this at the right time. So, Anna, let's start with you. We started with OG last time. What's Kate to do if she can't get the sounds like an apartment complex to change the way that she pays for this?

[Anna Alum]

Yeah, that's really silly, Kate. I feel you on that. And I'm. I've never heard of something like that. I feel like it should, unless it's like on campus housing or something where they do something silly. And it's when you're paying for tuition. I have no idea. I've never heard of this before. But in terms of reimbursing yourself through your 529, I think you just do it when you pay for it. It's not necessarily like when the service is rendered and when your daughter is in the housing, but it's when you actually pay for it. So hopefully that answers your question of like when you're actually taking the money out.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Well, so wait a minute. So in other words, she could pay for out of her funds and then during the qualified time, then she reimburses herself within that time frame that the.

[Anna Alum]

IRS says you can pay for it from your own funds and then reimburse yourself within the calendar year, just make sure it's done within 2026, that whatever you've paid for on your credit card, whatever you're seeing there that are tuition, room and board, any other expenses that are qualified education, you're reimbursing yourself through your 529 plan. At that point, I think you can pay for it directly from your 529, if I'm not mistaken. But I don't think every fee you can do that. Every college expense, you can do that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, gee, you're. Nod your head.

[OG]

Yeah, I mean, when it comes to the tuition and fees and that sort of thing, I'm sure a lot of schools now are like this. I only have experience with one, but I know that at A and M where Alex goes when the bill is due, you can just click the button that says pay for my 529. Boom. Done. Like you go into the 529 company, we use my529.org and you just log into the account and go, I'm paying tuition to Texas A and M. Here's the student name, here's his ID number. Send check.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

But this is off campus housing she's talking about. This is some.

[OG]

So you can do the same thing. You can say send check to whatever or you can, like Anna said, pay for it yourself there. This isn't like accrual based accounting, you know. And that's the way that I thought about this. Like, like Anna said it better of like, it's not when the services are rendered. It's like when you pay the bill. You know, it's just the bills. Bills do and you pay it. So if you're paying the tuition that's due on January or the room and board that's due on January 1st, yeah, I'd pay it December 15th and be done with it. This is not super complicated. I've, I've never heard. And you should check with your tax person on this, but I've never heard of anybody being audited regarding their 529 expenses. Because a lot of this is somewhat on the honor system. And what I mean by that is you're paying for the stuff, right? You charge it, you have travel expenses, your kid goes out of state and you've got to fly or you're going to buy a MacBook and you just swipe the credit card. And then to your point, all of that stuff is reimbursable from your 529. So you can call the 529 place or log into your 529. Say I spent $3,100 on transportation costs and a MacBook. Send me a check for $3,100 so I can pay my credit card off. And at the end of the year, you're going to get a distribution statement, a 1099 Q from the 529 company that said you distributed $22,318.11 from your 529 of which 5,000 of that was gains. That's just all the info that the 529 company has. It's then up to you on your tax return when you put that 1099 in to say this was used appropriately. Like literally check a box that goes, yes, I did it correctly. This was used appropriately. Now there's always a chance that the IRS comes back and says, I need the receipts, I need to prove it. So I wouldn't fib on that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. Well, I think what you're getting to OG is this right from the irs. It has important considerations, timing of withdrawals. It's advisable to time your withdrawals to coincide with when you incur the qualified expense. For example, and I love this example because Kate, this is exactly what you're running into. If you're paying for a semester in advance, so you're paying ahead of time, you can withdraw the funds before the payment is due because you're making the qualified expense. So it is less to do with when your child is living in the apartment than when the money is due.

[OG]

100%. This is just when you, when you pay the expense, that's the year. And I think Anna brought up a good point. Keep this simple by having your 529 reimburse you. If you're paying for it out of your own pocket, not having the 529 pay the. Pay the payment. Keep this in the same calendar year because it's a lot cleaner and easier to. To deal with. The numbers will match and it'll be super easy. I would check and see if the 529 can just send the money directly to the apartment complex.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No mess, no fuss, then.

[Kate]

Yeah.

[OG]

And if they already have a screwy schedule, you're paying like this weird April to January time frame, then I would, I would just pay the last payment in December. I'd pay two payments in December and be done with it. And then all the books are closed basically for 2026.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Much like OG the last 15 years. Been following headlines, prepping for these shows and following what's going on. So you stackers get all the best information. I've never heard of anyone that has fallen into non compliance with the rules. But that said, I would still keep some careful records because I don't want. Kate, we don't want you to be the first one. Yeah, just, just keep all these government.

[OG]

Shut down board IRS agents that are listening to financial podcasts are going, who are we going after next? You know, let's check the IP address of.

[Anna Alum]

Well, when Kate gets audited, she's going to play this episode for the IRS agent.

[OG]

Hey, Jack Wagons.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And that may also be why we're saying maintain careful records, Kate, your withdrawals to make sure that they stay compliant with IRS rules and you avoid penalties.

[OG]

I mean, the reality is that 529s used to be very tight in terms of their withdrawal restrictions and now it's very, very, very loose. Arguably you can tie just about anything to a qualified education Expense is spring break. Probably not. But if you live in Pennsylvania, your kid goes to school in California, is it reasonable to say that the transportation of an airfare back at Thanksgiving and back at Christmas is education expense? I think so. You know, I don't have proof to say it's not. Is it fair to say that every single weekend I need private jet travel back and forth and that's a 529 expense? Probably not. Right? Like that seems a little excessive.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, I think there's some common sense rules here. Yeah, that you can follow. We are going to get a quick refill on our coffee. And Doug. Doug has not been here the entire time. What are you doing, dude? It's. It's time for the trivia.

[OG]

Taking a nap.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I know. Apparently, he's been sleeping on the job. Everybody. But it's time for Doug to wake up and get back at it because he has today's trivia question.

[Doug]

Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And man, oh, man, you all have some great money questions. Okay, I'm gonna get in on this. I got one, too. What's the most counterfeited denomination of U. S. Currency? Currency. And how much ink? Because I'm curious. You're just curious. How much ink would it take to crank those babies out? Okay, okay. Cut the. Cut the last part. Don't. Don't get involved in a counterfeiting scheme. Gotcha. Okay, here we go. Take two. As I was saying, what's the most counterfeited denomination of US Currency? And which brand of printer was. Would a guy want to. Okay, sorry. We'll just. We'll stick to the basics. What's the most counterfeited denomination of US Currency? That's definitely the question. It's the only question I got. I'll be back right after I go figure out the difference between a misdemeanor and a felony.

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[Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm definitely not fake money creator and guy who's only using the cash to make the new stacking Benjamin's board game Special Agent Murphy Promise. It's Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. Seriously, have you seen how technical money is these days? I joke about counterfeiting, but orange is not color. But for those who have counterfeited US currency, what's their currency of choice? It's the $20 bill. The most counterfeits are actually created outside of the usa and definitely not in a border town in northeast Texas. Here's a show that's not only in the usa, but somehow makes it from Texarkana to your ears. Back to Joe, OG and Anna.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And by the way, behind the scenes, stackers. Anna got that right.

[Anna Alum]

Yay.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Nice job. And OG up for debate. And OG's looking it up.

[OG]

I'm not looking it up. I'm just waiting for someone to give me the source.

[Anna Alum]

He's just sad that he lost.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

The source is Doug.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

What other source do we need besides Doug?

[OG]

Precisely.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Let's. Let's move on. Vijay. Good to hear Vijay's voice. I think Vijay has been with us for a while. Vijay, what's your question today, man?

[Vijay]

Hi, Joe, OG and neighbor Doug. This is Vijay. I just learned that it took Japan's Nikkei index over 34 years to finally surpass its 1989 peak. This got me thinking how concerned should we be that the US stock market could face such a similar like lost decade scenario? What are your thoughts on the fundamental differences that might make such catastrophic outcomes less likely here? I'm thinking about things like our larger workforce, available land and resources. Is there something inherently different that acts as a structural advantage for the US economy? I understand that we should control what we can and maintain a well diversified portfolio. But I would appreciate your perspective on how severely we should weigh this type of long term systemic risk when planning for the future. Thanks and see ya.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thanks Vijay. And good to hear your voice, man. I hope you're doing well. Let's dive into this because he's not wrong OG Japan. This malaise for a long, long, long time. And I agree with Vijay and I know so do you and I'm sure you do too. This is why you have a diversified portfolio, right? If you lived in Japan and all your money was in Japan. We covered this earlier this year. People are saying, do I get rid of my international? Hell no, you don't get rid of your international. But how worried systemically should we be that maybe the US has a similar.

[OG]

Malays OG well, before we get started, I would like to point out that according to Perplexity, which is a great AI search tool, domestically the US most counterfeited bill is the 20. But internationally it's the hundred. So 50. 50. Anna.

[Anna Alum]

No, no, I'm not giving this up.

[OG]

I got it sourced right here, but okay.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No, I think your AI is hallucinating. Oh gee, I, I believe Doug over your AI.

[Anna Alum]

And we also live here, so we are experiencing counterfeit. Yeah, $20 bill here.

[OG]

It's, it's in your life every day.

[Anna Alum]

Yeah, that's how I know the answer is 20.

[OG]

Okay, I see.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes, you say distributed internationally, it's the hundred.

[OG]

No, internationally it's the 100.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Internationally created or internationally distributed?

[OG]

Created.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Internationally created.

[Anna Alum]

Well, that makes sense.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, sure.

[OG]

Go big, go big, go big. That's why I don't understand the US idea. Like, you know what, let's counterfeit the 20. Nobody will catch us. It's like you're going to jail one way or the other. You might as well go to jail for all the money.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

It's not like going from orange to bright orange. I mean, come on.

[OG]

Exactly. I got stripes on that.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. So let's talk about the risk of that.

[OG]

Og you know, I think that if you go back in time, there was some other issues going on in Japan. I just read this piece in the last couple of weeks that the value of land in Japan was more valuable than all the companies. Or maybe it was the other way around. During the height of the everything was just mucked up. It was just very unrealistic. And the reality is, I think that different economies and different sectors of economies are going to experience similar things over long periods of time. There's going to be an area, I mean US housing market in 2000, right? Huge collapse. And he said what if the US has a lost decade? We had that in 2000-2010. I don't remember the exact numbers. I think the S and P averaged 2% over that 10 year period and then on the heels of it. But if I'm comparing the Japanese stock market to the US market, just number one, I'm going to say we're just way, way, way, way, way bigger and therefore have different areas to assuage some of that volatility concern or that that long term decline. But that doesn't mean that there's not a two year, three year bear market somewhere in the future that has equally terrifying results. You can just look back and as recently as the Great Recession and.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You.

[OG]

Know that was pretty crappy, there was a lot of wealth loss during that time. But the important thing I think to remember is just like the Japanese market, although it took a long time to get back to even people that were invested and people that were diversified and if you were rebalancing when you were supposed to, were rewarded. Now that doesn't mean that the person who had a million dollars in 1988 in the Nikkei and all of a sudden in 2000 we're worth 300,000 that they were rewarded by waiting the next 25 years to get back to even money. It still requires investing and that sort of thing. But that's the same premise as any area of the economy or any area of the global economy, right? Is you're investing, you rebalance, see what the results are, sell from the things that have done well, rebalance back into the things that haven't done well and washer and repeat. And that statistically has given you the best odds. It's not to say that it's never going to happen. It's what's the best odds to be successful over the long term.

[Anna Alum]

Anna, I think of this from the perspective of if you were to plan for this, if we think that this is a likely outcome, not just a recession, but something like what happened in Japan and we were to actually plan for it, like what is the plan? You put all of your money in cash or you put it all into fixed income so it's more secure. And that's not really an option either. Like that's going to get you nowhere. So I don't know the statistics around why the US Economy is more stable or wouldn't be hit as hard or could bounce back better than the Japanese economy. But I do know there isn't really a solution to avoiding this if it were to happen in the future. Like, you have to be invested or you're going to get nowhere within your financial plan. You'll be working forever.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Let's talk about the ways, because I love how you make this actionable and put it right in, into behavioral terms. We can't control what happens to us, but we can control what we do about it. The first thing, oh gee. What you said around diversifying and rebalancing, look at what would happen in a rebalance situation, which would be you would consistently find yourself making money on the other pieces of your portfolio. You would still make money because of the fact that you stayed balanced. Now, the thing that's frustrating to me is everybody always wants to get out of balance because they love what just happened and they want more of the thing that just happened. I want more tech, I want more Nvidia. Yeah. I want more crypto. Let's do the thing that is, quote, doing real good versus staying even. And it's in staying even that we avoid this. The second thing is, Vijay, if you're putting money in to a diversified portfolio, even during that time, the Japanese economy didn't stay at zero. It bounced around. There was hope and then there was despair. Then there was hope and there was despair. And even during the lost decade in the United States, that happened. Investors still made money by investing all the way through that because of dollar cost averaging during those times when it actually dipped lower. Even though the market did nothing over the long term, you still assuming that during those dips you continued to buy in even amounts, you still came out ahead of zero because of the fact that a. You put money in. I think a lot of people stop putting money in if they think it's going to go to zero, which is ridiculous because you still have to save, right? And if it bounces around, you're going to make money just on the volatility, makes you some money. The third thought that I had was just about, you know, the Japanese equivalent of the Federal Reserve is called the bank of Japan. Lots of finance programs and universities across the world have talked about the big mistake Japan made. Like this is not you know, Joe, giving you a secret that nobody else knows, Japan very quickly took their interest rates to zero, thinking that this was going to be short term. And much like the Federal Reserve, when you start lowering rates, if you do it too quickly, you got nothing you can do. Like when rates go to zero now their Federal Reserve has no, no recourse anymore. So when you see this, this playing out right now in American politics, the President saying, lower rates, lower rates, lower rates. And the chairman of the Federal Reserve there for what the first half of this year is going, no, no, not going to do it, not going to do it. And now he's doing it because he sees, you know, some data, that friction is good. The friction between the White House and the Federal Reserve. That's a good thing. And so the Fed chairman going, I got to keep this slow is specifically to avoid what happened in Japan because Japan just had no recourse. And now they're on a roller coaster that's out of control with nothing they can do about it. I don't know that.

[OG]

No, no ammo left. Yeah, the biggest thing there is the rebalancing and the consistency. What was it Peter lynch that said this? More people have lost more money preparing for the next bear market than in all the bear markets. It's like waiting for the next thing to happen. People ask, sometimes they'll say, oh, well, the market's at an all time high. It's like the market's always at an all time high. How long do you guys have to see this happen to realize it's always at an all time high? And then all of a sudden we get like a 2 or 3 or 4 or 5% negative month and people are like, I knew it. It's the crash, it's coming. It's like, okay, so what? Like this stuff happens and the cost of being an equity investor. Well, first of all, if you don't invest in equities, if you don't own companies, your only other option is to save all the money that you could possibly need for all of your retirement in cash. Which, newsflash, you could save all of your money that you've ever made for your entire Life. And from 22 to 65, your entire salary, never consume a dollar and you would still not have enough money to live from 65 to 95 because of inflation. There's no way to do it. So that option is purely off the table. Unless you don't believe in math.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And by the way, even then, oh gee is still off the table.

[OG]

I mean, there are some people out there who'll say, well, you know, grandpa died at 72, so I'm just going to die 75. It's like, okay, well, you're right. I can't predict how long you're going to live. And if you only have a 10 year time horizon, then you can pretty much do whatever you want. But I'm planning on having a 50 year time horizon and I got kids and grandkids that I want to make sure are set for generations. So that's my plan. So the only other thing is investing in companies. And then you look at the history of investing in companies all the way back to the most data we have is the early 1800s from Jeremy Siegel. But even if you don't believe the 1800 stuff, you can say, all right, how about 1900s? Look at all of the craziness that has happened in just your lifetime. Make a chart year by year of the chaos that's happened, not of the good stuff of the chaos that's happened since you were born. And then go back to the day you were born and write down what the S and P was at, or write down what the Dow is at. And now look at it today and tell me that if you knew or if your parents knew that all of this nastiness was going to happen in the next 47 years of your life or the next 52 years of your life or whatever, how much money would you invest in that economy? And you would go, no way, man. Like bank collapses, wars, rumors of wars, terrorist attacks, more bank collapses. Just look at the last quarter century of the stuff that's happened since the year 2000. Take out the 80s and 90s. No way would you have invested any money. And yet people still buy cars, they still buy razor blades, they still have to put food on the table. We are constantly evolving as a society in terms of advancement and we're always trying to do more with less stuff. That's just what the economy has done from all time. And so why would you want to bet against that? Knowing that there's 200, 150, 25. Pick your time frame, years of experience here. That doesn't mean that there's not going to be times that go down. There are, there's going to be, every four or five years we're going to have a minus 20 in there and you're going to have a million bucks and you're going to wake up at the end of the year and have 800K. You're going to go God, that sucked. And the key at that time is to do the same thing that you did that got you to a million. Because if you do the same thing, that 800 will turn to 1.6. If somewhere in that million going to 800, you go, yeah. You know, somehow I feel like this is the time that will never recover. The economy's, you know, the political system, like whatever is in a place that's never been, and therefore I can't believe it will ever go up again. That's when you die. You will run out of money at that point. That's the big mistake. Don't do the big mistake. Keep doing the same thing that got you to the million. And watch how fast it grows.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I'm so inspired now. Aren't you, Anna? Yeah.

[Anna Alum]

That makes me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thank you, Coach.

[Anna Alum]

Ready to go? Yeah.

[OG]

What happened? I just blacked out.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thank you so much. Oh, you nailed it. Even the East German judge gave you a 10. Beautiful. And east Germany hasn't been a thing. There's people going East Germany. Wait, what? Wait, what?

[OG]

It's a good joke, everybody.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Thank you so much, Vijay, Kevin and Kate, for making this a great episode. If you've got questions for the show, send them to us. And og, Anna and I are planning our next episode where we answer your questions. Stackybenjamins.com voicemail everybody who asks a question, get some cool Stacky Benjamin Swag for being brave and for helping us make the show. So thanks to Kevin, Kate and Vijay. And you'll be getting an email from Gertrude as we speak. But at the end of the episode, we step out in the back porch where we talk about things going on the community. I want to shine a light on something, guys. Two things. Number one, Stacker, David. David Falchuk. By the way, I usually don't say Stacker's last name, but David has been on the show with us talking about picking wines around holiday times. So anybody who knows wine like David does is a friend of mine. But David said he just listened to episode 1756, which is when money gets tight, talking about the government shutdown and about people being laid off from Amazon and other places. He said, you know, the holidays are close. Listening to this episode at least once or twice, Og seemed like he had a heart. I didn't record the timestamps, but I'm planning to relisten. Is he softening up as he gets older? I blame Wicked. David says, Is David making you soft? Og, what's going on?

[OG]

I. I don't. I. I'm gonna have to re listen to the episode. I I was it. Was it the one we used AI for me? Is that the one?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah.

[Doug]

David.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

David. That wasn't really og he took the day off, so we had AI and we. We forgot to prompt it correctly. Wasn't snarky enough. David, thanks for that. By the way. Stacker Kevin also had maybe my favorite one. He said, Anna, that he can't remember how to write 110516 or 500 Roman.

[Anna Alum]

I don't either, so that's okay.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

He said, I'm livid. I M L I V I D.

[Anna Alum]

Oh, he got me Kevin.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Nice job. And that's in our basement Facebook group, stacking benjamins.com basement gets you there quickly. And then we'll ask you a few security questions so we don't get bombed by spammers, which, oh, my God, there's so many spammers that want to get into your group. So we make sure they don't get through. So give us a few minutes and then we'll get you in and then you can crack jokes that and I'm sure we'll share with nobody later. Like that one. Also, one more thing. We're raising money for charity. I said this at the front end. We didn't rip on Joel and Matt as much as we should have. I mean, Joel and Matt just. There's so much to rip. I mean, Anna, nice job. Much better advice you gave today than people would get it out of money.

[Anna Alum]

Absolutely. Go there if you only want trash.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah, that's right. We can't even trash talk without cracking up. That's how these guys are so damn nice. And we're trying so hard. So hard. But stackers, you got to give more than the how to money crowd. I mean, I know you, you know, you. You know that you can give. You know you believe in financial literacy. That's why you listen to this show, right, Instead of how to Money. Because you really want true financial literacy instead of whatever, you know, time to time, they maybe have a good one right every once in a while. But here we make sure that we're bringing it for you. So stackingbenjamins.com stacking hope that's the name that our community said they wanted to give to this giving month. So please help us beat Joel and Matt. The cool thing is, by the way, there is something in it for you besides the warmth of helping young people learn more about money, because we've partnered with a bunch of iHeart shows, the iHeart Music Festival, which has tons of big bands. Every time that you give, your name goes in a drawing for the iHeart Music Festival, two free tickets, transportation, your hotel, everything. On top of that, there's a bunch of other prizes. But if you go to stackingbenjamins.com stacking hope you'll see all about giftingsense.org, karen Holland's fantastic organization we're helping and about all the other loser voices like how to money that we're competing against that we're totally going to decimate. So all right, that's going to do it for today. Except this. Anna, where can people find out more about you? Where can people if they want to chat with you, how do they learn more?

[Anna Alum]

If you want to connect with me, you can find [e-mail] OG and just request me.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yes, it's super easy. That's Anna and OG's calendar. And you know what? It's time stackers. We're looking at, we're looking at the end of the year already. I feel like we were just talking about this last year. Like we're looking at 2025. So if you're 2025 went as fast as mine did and it's over before it even feels like it began and you've done nothing. Well, time to make 2026 a better year. Stacking benjamin.com OG all right, that's going to do it for today. Big thanks. Thanks for joining us again, Anna.

[Anna Alum]

Thank you.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Anna is going to be my co host next week, but coming up on Wednesday. Oh gee, get this. Jason Zweig. Is it Zweigger's wag? Yes, yes, Jason. Every time I pronounce his name, by the way, I get a, I get a note from a stacker going, you pronounce Jason's name wrong. And I love Jason. How often do we talk about Jason for the people who don't even know who Jason is, Jason is a long time columnist at the Wall Street Journal, brilliant writer. Jason points to this study OG that just came out which was pretty interesting. It says shock of shocks. You should probably be all stocks all the time. And Jason says pump the brakes on that. Here's what could go wrong.

[OG]

No, nothing goes wrong.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

OG versus Jason Zweig. Jason Zweig, Jason, OG and Jason. And also by the way, executive coach Katie o' Malley is going to be here talking about if you get distracted a lot lately we're in the distraction economy. She's a fantastic executive coach. Her TEDx talk has been watched by hundreds of thousands of people on this topic, how do we make sure that we're focused and that we're on point and that we're intently listening to the people around us. So whether you use that at work or in your personal life, that'll help you.

[OG]

What's happening? I wasn't paying attention.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Wait.

[Kate]

Huh?

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Yeah. All right. And on that note. And I roll from Anna. We'll see you guys next time. Doug, what should be on our to do list at the end of today's show?

[Doug]

So what should we have learned today? First, take some advice from Vijay's question. While markets rise and fall, the best way to wealth Staying diversified and working on your income streams. Investing your hard earned savings in just one ecosystem is a dangerous endeavor.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Second.

[Doug]

Second, planning your 2026 budget. Plan on significant increases to your health insurance expenses next year. Figure out how that might fit in your budget ahead of time to avoid debt or worse. But the big lesson, Joe, Talk about counterfeiting. Your mom's no angel either, man. I saw her laundering laundry. You think it's just tide pods going in that machine, but I know money laundering when I see it. I checked every sock for cash. Nothing. Zip, nada. Damn, she's good. Join us Wednesday, it's mentor day in the basement. And that means we're joined by elite executive coach Katie o'. Malley. Find yourself distracted or want better communication? Katie's going to share techniques to keep you focused on task and intently listen. Listening while in important conversations. That's Wednesday, back here in mom's basement. This show is the property of SP Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025, and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and on all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug]

And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time. Back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.

[Kate]

SA.

[OG]

Had the opportunity to be on a plane the last couple weeks, several plane rides. So I got caught up on a whole bunch of stuff on Netflix. And I watched two. I watched a movie and I watched a show. And I know we talked about Diplomat, but I don't want to talk about that. I think, Doug, you and I both thumbs up real quick on Diplomat.

[Doug]

Thumbs up, yep.

[Kate]

Across.

[Doug]

Thumbs up for sure.

[OG]

So if you haven't got to Diplomat three seasons, you can do it.

[Kevin]

All right.

[OG]

The first movie that I saw number one in movies on Netflix right now called the House of Dynamite. Approximately three minutes ago, we detected an ICBM opening the Pacific Current flight trajectory is consistent with impact somewhere in the continental United States. Have we seen death gun tickle for new. Is this real?

[Doug]

Shotcom is asking for launch instructions right now. I'm going to need you to breathe.

[OG]

We are talking about hitting a bullet with a bullet.

[Doug]

So it's a coin toss. That's what $50 billion buys us.

[OG]

Get in the car and just start driving. If we do not take steps to neutralize our enemies now, we will lose.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Our window to do so.

[OG]

If we get this wrong, none of us are going to be alive tomorrow.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

There is no plan B. We did everything right, right? Whenever they say nobody's going to start a nuclear war. So this is about somebody starting a nuclear war.

[Doug]

You know exactly that somebody's about to do that.

[OG]

So it starts out with everybody just going to work like normal situation room in D.C. and they're just doing the handoff like, hey, what's going on today? Da, da, da, da, da. All of a sudden somebody goes this. They got the screen up and it goes, nope. They go, wait, what's that? And somehow we, the US Missed the launch of this missile. And so this missile's up and going and they're like, huh, a test flight. Like, what's this, a satellite launch? We're just waiting on Elon Musk to say, oh, sorry, forgot to mention that we're putting this, you know, whatever. And then they realize it is not. And it's 20 minutes of them trying to figure out what is going on as this thing is like entering the orbit of the Earth and then coming back down. I caught wind of this when I was in Chicago because they said that the impact is Chicago. So that's where the missile is headed. And so there's a new story about, like, if you're sensitive to this sort of stuff and you live in Chicago, you probably don't want to watch this movie.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Don't watch it.

[OG]

Chicago, potentially. I am going to give this a gigantic thumbs down. Like double triple thumbs down.

[Doug]

And yet it's number one.

[OG]

It's number one. I don't want to give it away any reasons why, but the structure of the movie is garbage. So I'm happy to tell you guys Should I say what it is? Maybe just do like a three second thing. Like come back in 30 seconds if.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

You want to watch it to see why it's a thumbs down. We'll give you three seconds to stop listening because I'm not going to watch it.

[OG]

Okay, if you're still listening, you've been warned. I'm not going to give away what happens in the movie, but as this movie progresses, there's this countdown, right? The missiles going. And you're watching the countdown and there's, you know, everybody's calling this frantic. It's a hugely suspenseful thing. And then it gets down to like 5 seconds, 4 seconds, 3, 2, and then fade to black. And now the movie starts over from a different person's perspective. So now instead of being in the situation room, you know, you're in the air force base and these guys are just chucking it up, having a good time and then they get the alert and so now it's them going, oh snikes, we've got 20 minutes to get the, you know, and you see the bombs being loaded on the plane and they launch and they're freaking out. And then it fades to black and now it goes to the president and he's in a motorcade going to do this thing. It's like all these different perspectives and there's no ending to the movie. The movie just stops telling you stories.

[Doug]

You have no idea what if it was real or not.

[OG]

No idea, no idea who did it. No idea what we did about it. There's no.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

I think some people are going to think that's clever and they're going to like that.

[Doug]

That's horse pucky.

[OG]

It is absolute garbage. So I was like, I was like on a plane, I wanted to throw my. I wanted to open the emergency exit and throw my phone out the window from 30,000ft.

[Doug]

That would be a rational response.

[OG]

Yeah, I was like, like this is so dumb. What a waste of an hour and 45 minutes.

[Doug]

When you started this and you were saying we don't know if it's real or not, it reminded me of the real life situation like this that happened in Russia. Have you guys heard this story? No, I'm not setting up a joke. So 1983, there was a, there was.

[OG]

A loose movie, the War Game.

[Doug]

Nope.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

No, he's talking about something that really happened.

[Doug]

Yeah, this is a real thing. So. And this is one of those cases where we don't realize how close we were to the world ending until long after it happened. But there was a Russian lieutenant. So way down the chain, you know, like, not top dog at all. He was working in their air defense center. And this was a few weeks after the Russians shot down a Korean commercial airliner. That made, you know, huge news. Everybody knew about that. You didn't OG because this was like years before you were born. Probably in 1983.

[OG]

Nope, I was in kindergarten.

[Doug]

So they had, in this defense missile defense center, they were getting alarms that a missile had been launched from the United States. Shortly after that, three more showed up. And he didn't believe it. And he disobeyed protocol and his superiors and did not fire, counter attack and save the world by going against Russian military command and protocol. Guy's name was Stanislav Petrov.

[OG]

Yeah, that's what's going on in this movie is everybody's on the phone with everybody going, Russia's like, that wasn't us, man. And it's like, well, that's what people who would do it would say. And it's like, no, it's not. It's like, well, we know your subs in the Atlantic surface your submarine right now. And to prove to us that, you know, you're not on an offensive. And it's like, but if I do that, you blow us out of the water. I promise not to blow you out of the water. How do I know? You know, it's like you talk to the Chinese. The Chinese said they didn't do it, but I think this might be. This is, you know, how did we, you know, it's just all this chaos. And for the first 20 minutes of the movie, you're like, holy crap, what are we going to do? And then when it starts over, you're like, wait, what is happening? And then you go, oh, we're starting over.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

From it's just a different perspective.

[Doug]

And all of which, I've seen some movies like that and you think, okay, this could be cool, but if they don't give you any resolution, there's no end. Now I'm pissed.

[OG]

Yeah. Now I will say that I did watch another show, if we got time for one more, called Zero Day. And I watched the first episode of this, took it off the table because I was like, I'm not sure. And then went back to it and it got better. This is like fine wine. It gets better every episode. Here's the series. It's a six episode series called Zero Day.

[Kate]

Four.

[OG]

Oh, two people died on Zero Day.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Plane crashes, train derailments, total chaos.

[OG]

Whoever's responsible for this attack, they're dangerous and they said they're going to do it again. Congress is authorizing a special investigatory commission.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

And endowing it with powers of surveillance, search and seizure. I'm just gonna grab people off the streets without words.

[OG]

Actually, you are.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

People who believe what they need to believe.

[OG]

The truth is the truth, but it's not always the most important thing.

[Kevin]

Wow.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Sounds like you're like an uplifting stuff, man. Yeah. Apocalypse much?

[Doug]

And is that De Niro?

[OG]

Yeah. Zero Day is the name of this show. Robert De Niro, Jesse Plemons, Lizzie Kaplan, Connie Britton, Joan Allen, Angela Bassett, Matthew Modine. Pretty big guy, jam packed with people. So this is a. I mean, it's a terrorist attack that happens. It basically takes out the grid. It's the grid. It's all the. Like, everything shuts down for a minute and then comes back. And the former president is tasked with being the special prosecutor on this commission to figure out who did it. And he starts pulling the thread of who did it. Now, the thing that's interesting is at the beginning of the movie, when he's sitting there, he is pretty much going crazy. He's seeing things, he's hearing things. You get to kind of unravel his past of why he's not president anymore. He stepped down in the middle of a term or didn't seek reelection. Some family events that happened, and that comes up. So there's all that while he's trying to unravel this and also battle these demons of like, am I. Is this, like, early onset dementia that's going on? Is there something else afoot? Is this just psychosis of some kind? So he starts kind of pulling the thread. Now, the difference between this show and the other movie is that this does have a finality to it. As he unravels, what happens. Has a very tough decision to make at the end of the whodunit part. And it's very good.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

So this sounds like a big thumb up.

[OG]

This. I would give a big thumb up to very dark. Lot of not great themes going on. Espionage and surveillance and very much the dark side of all of the stuff. Like, if you think about, what was it? The Patriot Act. Right, the patriot act. After 9, 11, everybody's like, yeah, that's great. And now we see the other side of that, which is it's 20 years later. Do we still need 700 layers of security at airports? Probably does it? You know, should we up our tech at this point? We probably don't need to have our shoes off. Like, they have a pretty good sense of what's going on? I had that full body search the other day at the airport.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Oh, you loved every minute of that, didn't you?

[OG]

I was trying to make jokes. The guy was not having it none. But what I did do was as his hands were down my pants and people were looking at me like, what is this guy doing? I would make, like, extended eye contact with them, and I would just smile.

[Joe Saul-Sehy]

Don't break it.

[OG]

As they walk through the airport.

[Doug]

Don't break it.

[OG]

As they're, like, looking at me going, what is going on with him? I. I just look at him and smile. Until they broke eye contact. So, yeah, it was. It was good for everybody. I had a good time.

[Doug]

What was the name of the hot piece of garbage? We should avoid the first one again?

[OG]

The House of Dynamite. Triple thumbs down. I'm using your thumbs to also thumb it down even though you haven't seen it. And then zero day thumbs.

[Kate]

Up.