Stop Treating Every Financial Decision Like It's Mount Everest SB1848

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: Stop Treating Every Financial Decision Like It's Mount Everest (SB1848)
Date: May 29, 2026
Hosts: Joe Saul-Sehy, Josh "OG" Bannerman, Paula Pant, Jesse Kramer
Main Theme:
How to handle financial uncertainty by differentiating between major (one-way door) and minor (two-way door) decisions, setting appropriate anchors, and knowing when to pivot versus persevere.

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the role of uncertainty in personal finance and the tendency many have to treat every money move as if it’s climbing Mount Everest—a high-stakes, irreversible decision. The hosts and guests explore ways to distinguish between truly high-stakes choices and those that are easily reversible, practical anchors to ground yourself during uncertain times, and kill-switch criteria for knowing when to call it quits. Real-life experiences, frameworks, and plenty of humor keep the discussion lively and actionable.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Handling Financial Uncertainty (08:40–15:00)

• Uncertainty is Constant: Joe kicks off the main conversation by noting that uncertainty in the markets, jobs, and life is ever-present.
  • "How do we get through times of uncertainty? And... how do we put these into practice?" (03:54, Joe)
• Personal Achilles Heels:
  • Joe: Temptation to make long-term portfolio changes based on short-term income instability.
  • Jesse: Feels uneasy about the future of family and dependents—a new responsibility since having children.
    • "I always know I'll be okay... But then when I think about providing for other people... that puts my stomach in a knot." (09:28, Jesse)
  • Paula: Struggles with volatility in entrepreneurial income, sometimes needing to sell assets to make payroll.
  • OG: Worries about second- and third-order consequences of irreversible financial decisions (e.g., selling the wrong asset and incurring unwanted taxes).

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2. Anchors for Financial Stability (15:03–22:20)

• Cash Reserves & Debt Avoidance:

  • Paula highlights the importance of building a large cash reserve and operating cash-only to minimize risk, especially as an entrepreneur.
    • "One is maintaining cash reserves. And that works until it doesn't... It's plan A." (15:03, Paula)
  • Jesse stresses the comfort of having life insurance and feeling more motivated to pay off the mortgage now that he has dependents.

• Different Views on Debt:

  • While Paula and Jesse see debt avoidance as vital, OG isn't as anxious about it, emphasizing belief in the progress and resilience of the economy.
    • "I believe long term in the future. So the short-term stuff doesn't really bother me." (19:00, OG)

• Anchors Beyond Finances:

  • Paula mentions knowing your "enough" number if work is a means to an end, versus working for passion.
  • Jesse and Joe discuss identity anchors, especially around retirement—recognizing the need to untangle self-worth from your job title.
    • "It’s also those personality, identity, social relationship type anchors—who are you going to be when you’re no longer a pediatrician?" (24:13, Jesse)

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3. One-Way vs. Two-Way Door Decisions (40:06–49:51)

• Jeff Bezos Framework:
  • Some choices are "one-way doors" (irreversible; e.g. selling a house), while others are "two-way doors" (easily reversed; e.g., index fund choices).
    • "Some decisions are one-way doors, meaning you walk through it, you can't walk it back." (40:06, Joe)
  • Paula notes the friction and magnitude of decisions—it's not just the size, but how hard it is to reverse.
    • "When it comes to a house specifically, the true one way door is selling a house..." (45:05, Paula)
• Practical Examples:
  • Automating investments (two-way door—change anytime, so just start).
  • Major career shifts, home purchases/sales, Social Security and pension decisions—these merit more deliberation due to consequences and friction.
  • Changing careers at 40? It depends. OG and Paula stress that returning to a previous field is easier the less time has passed.
    • "The more time that passes, the more it becomes a one-way door." (49:08, Paula)

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4. Setting Kill Switches & Knowing When to Pivot (49:51–54:11)

• Everest Analogy:
  • Drawing from Simone Stolzoff and Everest turn-around times—sometimes knowing when to abandon a goal is crucial.
• Developing Criteria:
  • Jesse sets a pre-determined timeline (Runway) for career pivots:
    • "For me, that was like 18 to 24 months, and I knew that going in." (50:33, Jesse)
  • Paula advocates for iterative pivots in entrepreneurship—don’t give up, but keep refining the product or business model.
  • Joe shares the importance of honest self-assessment; if the risk you're taking undermines your well-being, it's time to adjust objectives.
    • "When your risk tolerance disturbs your mental health... it's not the right thing for you." (53:54, Joe)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On treating minor choices like Everest:

  • "We treat tiny decisions often like they're life or death events." (41:12, Joe)

• On setting financial anchors:

  • "Having life insurance makes me feel a lot better. That's this anchor that makes me say, okay, if I get hit by a bus at the very least, there's going to be enough liquid cash..." (16:34, Jesse)

• On resilience and optimism:

  • "Everything gets better over time... It's never been as good as it could be than it is right now, and... everything in the future will also be better." (19:00, OG)

• On when to pull the kill switch:

  • "If there is any way to maintain the broad line of what you’re doing, but iterate, pivot—just keep pivoting until you find that right product market fit..." (52:29, Paula)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 08:40 — Uncertainty in personal financial lives: Panelists' Achilles heels
• 15:03 — Anchors: Cash reserves, life insurance, debt avoidance
• 22:20 — Knowing your “enough” number/purpose, identity after work
• 40:06 — One-way vs. two-way door decisions
• 43:43 — Financial friction and sunk costs (houses, careers)
• 49:51 — Setting kill switches/criteria for ending a pursuit
• 53:54 — Handling volatility, matching risk to comfort

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Memorable (and Entertaining) Moments

• Doug’s trivia tied to Everest serves as a metaphor for high-stakes, irreversible decisions.
• Humorous banter about Doug as an “anchor” and TikTok finance influencers named “Chad Money Alpha.”
• Multiple spirited debates about the show’s trivia rules—highlighting the everyday uncertainty (and occasional absurdity).
• Paula’s quiet pride and panelist ribbing when discussing Nepal and Everest facts.

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Actionable Takeaways

• Differentiate between big, irreversible decisions and small, adaptable ones.
• Automate or quickly decide on minor, reversible actions.
• Establish personal anchors: cash reserves, insurance, debt philosophy, “enough” number.
• Set clear, pre-determined criteria for when to pivot, quit, or reassess goals.
• Don’t let uncertainty paralyze you—most choices are reversible.
• Build some flexibility into your plans so you can adjust as circumstances (and your life) change.

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“Never confuse a two way door decision with a one way door decision. For example, trying a new restaurant—two way door. Easy. Telling Joe's mom you improved her cookie recipe—very much a one way door.” (61:58, Doug, closing moral)

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For more, check out the Stacking Benjamins show notes, or the Afford Anything and Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors podcasts for more from Paula Pant and Jesse Kramer.

Transcript

[Joe Salsihai]

I'm here on the job site with Dale, who's a framing contractor. Hey, good morning. Dale traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance for all his business vehicles. We're here where he needs us most. Yep, they sure are. We make it easy for him to save on all his insurance needs, all in one place with coverage that fits his business and bottom line. Oh, I shouldn't have looked down. It's all right. We're so far up here. Look at me. Take a deep breath. No, I'm good. So good.

[Doug]

Get a commercial auto insurance quote [e-mail]

[Jesse Kramer]

and see how much you could save.

[Doug]

It feels good.

[OG]

To Geico.

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[Juan Naula]

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[Joe Salsihai]

You heard of this thing, the eight Minute Abs?

[OG]

Yeah, sure. Eight Minute Abs. Yeah, the exercise video.

[Juan Naula]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, this is gonna blow that right out of the water. Listen to this. 7 minute abs.

[Doug]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and uncertainty is back. Markets feel shaky, careers feel shaky, and honestly, half of us refresh our brokerage accounts like the answer to life is hiding between the S and P and our blood pressure medication. So. So how do confident people make smart money moves when the future feels completely up for grabs? We're diving into the difference between one way and two way door decisions, why some risks are worth taking, and how to stop uncertainty from quietly ruining your financial life. Plus, halfway through the show, I'll unleash my trivia challenge. Because nothing says emotional stability like watching grown Adults panic over obscure facts. And now a guy who's absolutely certain the microphone is on. This time, it's Jo Sal.

[Joe Salsihai]

Hey there, Stackers, and happy Friday to you. I am Joe Salsihai and I'm super happy you're here with us because we're going to talk about uncertainty today. One thing we are certain of, it's Friday and you are here and we are here and we're going to have a great time. Aren't we, Doug? Yes, maybe.

[Doug]

I mean, you're asking a lot. You want a lot of commitment from

[Joe Salsihai]

me on a Friday. Bringing the energy. Yes, absolutely. Let's see if. Why am I turning to OG to see if he'll bring the energy? Please, God.

[OG]

I just want to know why we're working on Fridays. It is summer and I was told, I mean, it's in my contract we do not have Friday work days. So who do I see about this?

[Joe Salsihai]

Somebody who's super happy we're working this particular Friday. She's like, how quickly can we be done? Paula Pant is here. Hello.

[Paula Pant]

I'm always happy to spend Friday with you.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, fan, fantastic. And the guy who rounds out the team here on Fridays, Jesse Kramer's here. How are you, man?

[Jesse Kramer]

It's actually still Thursday here in Rochester. We have, we've retrograded a few time zones.

[Joe Salsihai]

You went backwards. What, what happened?

[Jesse Kramer]

We're going back to the future. Doug was telling me all about it. It's this movie that came out when Doug was like midlife crisis, 40ish. And it's all about time travel on today's show.

[Joe Salsihai]

Here is what's going on. Stackers. On Wednesday, we had Simone Stolzoff join us even if you didn't listen to Wednesday's episode. And, and by the way, I would go back and listen to it, but you can wait until we're done with this conversation. But he talks about uncertainty and this idea that there's so much uncertainty, not just now, but all the time in the markets. And some people can deal with it, some people have a really hard time dealing with it. How do we get through it all? How do we get through times of uncertainty? And he had so many great points, but I thought we truly needed was the ability to go and look at our, at our portfolios and our financial lives and how do we put these into practice? So I'm super happy because today Paula and, and OG and Jesse, we're going to go over exactly some of the biggest techniques and biggest ideas that Simone had from Wednesday. Don't worry if you haven't heard that interview yet, I'll explain all the different concepts. But then you might want to go back and listen to Wednesday. Speaking of listen, we're going to listen to a couple of our sponsors because they help us keep on keeping on. We only have two sponsor breaks during our shows now and in the middle of Doug's trivia, so hang off for just a moment. We're going to make sure that we can keep making this free for you. And then Paula Og Jesse, Doug and I we're going to dive into as you hear this, I just got back from keynoting the Millionaire Money Mentors Conference in Florida. I'm sure I had a great time even though I haven't gone yet as I record this. But I know wherever any stacking Benjamins people are, it's always a party, isn't it? But what makes it even better party is the fact that when you see pictures of me, those clothes came from quints. I'd be getting intentional lately about what I wear day to day and on stage and leaning in more into pieces that feel easy, that are comfortable, that I can travel with and still look put together. It just makes getting dressed simpler. Whether I'm at home or on the road. Quint has been my go to. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are clean. Everything just works without needing to overthink it. Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34. Lightweight, breathable and comfortable, but still look put together and clean. 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Their pants also hit that same balance. Relaxed and comfortable, but still polished enough to wear pretty much anywhere. Everything's priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. Quint works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen so you're getting premium materials without the markup between the pants that feel so incredibly comfortable. And my favorite is still that first cashmere sweater that I got. It is so nice. It's great to feel good because you know that your wardrobe looks good and it didn't cost anywhere near what I thought clothing that looks like that would cost. It should be the same for you. Refresh your everyday with luxury. You'll actually use head to quints.com sb and because you're a stacker, you'll get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.comSB for free shipping 365 day returns. Quint.comSB a dog's love letter to his squeaky avocado. Dearest Squeaky Avocado, my heart yearns to chew the. Alas, I've devoured a small action figure and have taken ill, unable to partake in our jubilant squeakings. Worry not as I am on the mend. And Lemonade pet insurance covered 90% of the of the veterinarian's cost. I recommend all the cats and dogs of the land. Get a'@lemonade.com pet soon my tummy will be unburdened and we shall frolic once more. Yours, Jerry. Your ability to get through uncertain times and hopefully make it a lot better. All right, let's dive into this idea of uncertainty, guys, because certainly we deal with it every day. And even though we've all put systems in place and we're going to be talking about that as we dive into this topic, there are some areas that trip us up more than others. I know that. Well, I do really well with like geopolitical conflict, something that we've talked about here in the last several weeks. Obviously for good reason. I don't go make changes to my portfolio because of that. I do think a lot about my portfolio. When I think about the possibility over the years of, of income instability and the fact that there might be income instability and I go mess with long term money or want to mess with long term money because of short term decisions, that's kind of my Achilles heel. Jesse, what would you say is yours when it comes to all this?

[Jesse Kramer]

I definitely feel more certain when I'm in control. Maybe by definition not reinventing the wheel here. For example, when I think about, say, my family members, like the way that their futures will unfold, that makes me feel uneasy. Like if that makes sense, like I, I, I always know I'll be okay. I can fend for myself. I'll figure out a way, I'll make sure I'm okay. But then when I think about, you know, providing for other people and, and making sure that they're okay in their futures, that, that gives me a lot of unease. That's the kind of thing that can put my kind of stomach in a little bit of a knot.

[Joe Salsihai]

And so just the fact that there's passengers on your journey.

[Jesse Kramer]

That's exactly correct. Yeah, that's exactly correct. And so anyway, I've noticed over the last couple years I've made some changes to my kind of financial plan, my personal financial life because of that fact and kind of to help me sleep better at night because they're now some passengers with me.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's a good one, an important one to recognize. Paula, how about for you? What's yours?

[Paula Pant]

I think for me the biggest thing is because business can be so volatile and because business has so many expenses associated with it, including paying payroll and paying everybody on the team, the times when it is not generating the revenue that we need it to generate, I stop paying myself entirely. And then I have to sell off assets in the taxable brokerage account. And often that is totally unplanned, but, you know, that's what's required in order to just pay rent and buy groceries.

[Joe Salsihai]

But you worry about that possibly coming up and that can be your stumbling block.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah. Oh, gee, how about for you? I could see you, you know, worried about both of those.

[OG]

It's funny listening to Jesse's conversation about, like, being responsible for other people. Welcome to being a dad, brother. Like, that's, that's kind of part of that transition. I remember when we had our first kids, I was thinking to myself, like, sometimes when I talk to my wife about our kids or like when she was pregnant, all the conversations were like, I wonder what this kid's going to be like, you know, how are we going to teach him or her and what is that growth and development going to look like? And all that I thought about was like, how am I going to feed everybody? Like, I'm good, I can feed me. So far I've figured out how to feed two people. I'm just not entirely sure how we're going to feed three or four or five, you know, so I can appreciate your sensation of that. It gets better, I promise. On the other side of it, Joe, when you were talking about uncertainty and some of the other stuff, you said, hey, I dealed well with political stuff or just kind of news cycles. And I'm with you on that one. That stuff doesn't get my ire up at all. Sometimes I even think it's comical and it creates great opportunities. Honestly, if you're an investor and you see other people making mistakes, you're just like, oh, I get to get that on sale later. It feels a little bit like you're taking advantage of the system. Maybe for me, it's really around kind of the second tier decisions, like the dominoes that fall because of the decision that you make and spending more energy and more time on thinking about, okay, well if I do this, then what are the other kind of next order effects that might be happening. And how can I gain the same certainty I have around the first decision with the other decisions as well? Because I don't like surprises of really any kind. I'm kind of, of convinced that most people don't like surprises. So just an easy financial one. Right. Paula was talking about selling something in her brokerage account. Like, okay, so you sell it because you need the cash flow or this opportunity comes up and then you find out you didn't think through it and you find out, oh, shoot, I sold the wrong thing. And now I have a $3,000 tax bill that's due in April, like unfun surprise, you know. So I want to gain some certainty, clarity around like those second and third tier decisions or any decision that I think is irreversible. And I know we're going to talk a little bit about that at the end, so I'll save that kind of for later. But that's where I really want to spend a lot of energy thinking time on what are the next dominoes that are going to fall by doing, by pushing this one button. I know it immediately happens, but what are the second order effects and third order effects?

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, to your point, I really sometimes think the geopolitical panic is laughable. There was an absolutely horrible incident that happened way back in 2004 that you guys may or may not remember, but there was a tsunami in the Indian Ocean, just. And it was a horrible situation. It was a horrible loss of life. Nobody ever, ever, ever wants to take advantage of that. But what I thought was completely stupid OG was people began selling all these assets in Singapore, which has a bunch of barrier islands around. It wasn't affected at all. And the Singapore Exchange goes right through the floor along with everything else. And I thought, how dumb, like just, just how dumb to sell that exchange. So I went to buy it up. Not to take advantage of a loss of human life, to be clear, to take advantage of the stupid investors that thought that was a great time to sell. A way to deal with it that Simone talked about that was, he said was really important is to create these anchors, you know, these financial anchors that can help you out with, you know what I do worry about geopolitical risks, so that's why I have an investment policy statement so that I will not make moves except on these days. So we set these financial anchors. And I'm wondering for you guys, what's some of the anchors around the things that you do, Paula, dealing with, maybe even what you talked about. You can't know when an income stream for you or for us at Stacking Benjamins. Right. But we don't know as an entrepreneur when that's going to hit. But how do you try to plan against that? What's your anchor?

[Paula Pant]

A couple of anchors. One is maintaining cash reserves. And that works until it doesn't. Like.

[Joe Salsihai]

Right.

[Paula Pant]

When times are good, you're like, cool, I'm shoring up the cash reserves. And then when times are bad, you're like, I'm dwindling, I'm dwindling, I'm dwindling, I'm dwindling. I'm done.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah. When it becomes a burn rate, that's when you start to.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, it has a part, I guess, a partial success rate. Like, it's certainly better than not having done it. But it's plan A. I guess the other piece of it is avoiding debt. For me, that's been a big one. As long as I'm operating all cash, then the worst thing that happens is I burn through all of my savings and all of my liquid investments.

[Joe Salsihai]

And that is interesting because that makes your burn rate smaller. Right. I mean, when you think about being a company, if you keep your. I remember when I was an early entrepreneur, one of the best piece of advice I got from somebody was, keep your overhead low. I was talking to this one guy about how as a young entrepreneur, I was going to do all these things that I was going to have all this brick and mortar stuff. He goes, avoid brick and mortar at all cost. Keep your overhead low. You're talking, Paula, about keeping your overhead low so the burn rate smaller.

[Paula Pant]

Well, not. I mean, kind of sort of like I keep my overhead low by not hiring more people. But I don't want to let go of the team that I have. And just maintaining the team that I have has very high costs associated with that.

[Joe Salsihai]

Absolutely. And the other thing that strikes me is if you maintain your credit rating, you have the ability, if you need to, to take on debt later as a last resort. Still in your pocket.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

Jesse, what's your anchor?

[Jesse Kramer]

My anchor? First, I like to have my microphone on. That's kind of my baseline anchor. You know, that way people can hear me when I'm actually speaking. Well, it is. It is funny because again, going back to my first answer, which just had to, like, do with having these other passengers in the car with me, the unique and new feeling I've had over the recent years is having life insurance makes me feel a lot better. That's this anchor that makes me say, okay, if I get hit by a bus at the very least, there's going to be enough liquid cash on hand that everyone's going to be okay. And then for a few years. Right. It's going to last for a while. And then also part of that life insurance leads me to maybe my next thing that makes me nervous, which is. Paula was just talking about debt. I think of my mortgage. Having a mortgage never used to bother me. And it still more or less doesn't. Like you make your monthly mortgage payment, it's kind of like the equivalent of paying rent. Either way, you're making some sort of monthly payment. But when I see that number next to our house of like, how much debt is still on the house in the form of a mortgage, that is something that I wish. It's a shackle that I wish I could break, that I wish I could get rid of. And I'm trying to be prudent about it. I'm not, you know, liquidating my 401k just to pay down the mortgage. But all of a sudden paying down the mortgage is a much higher priority to me today than it was, you know, a few years ago, than it was before I had children. So it's just kind of funny how. Yeah, sometimes these uncertainties or certainties can kind of ebb and flow in life as. As things change.

[Joe Salsihai]

It is wild that we're now two for two with debt being the avoidance of debt being an anchor. But from two totally different perspectives. One from the entrepreneurial side, the other from the fact that you've got passengers in the car. Well, really, Paula. And you know, when you talk about being an entrepreneur, it is passengers in the car still.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. You know, because it's. I'm responsible for payroll.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

And that payroll goes to support the livelihood of the people on the team, particularly the people who are full time. They're depending on it. And they've got families, they kids, they've got mortgages, they've got. They're relying on it to pay all of their bills.

[Joe Salsihai]

So we've got emergency funds, og and we've got staying away from debt. What's another anchor?

[OG]

Yeah, I was going to say I'm very pro debt, so I would not. That would be. It's a different kind of anchor, I suppose.

[Doug]

Opm, baby. Opm.

[OG]

Yeah, that's right. I say that a little tongue in cheek for those who are not picking up on the sarcasm. Although I'm. To be fair, I'm not as petrified by it as maybe Jesse is, because I think the other side of that, for me is just belief in the long term time horizon, just as a big broad brushstroke of like, ingenuity. And everything gets better over time and by being a part of this, you know, whatever you want to call it this time in the history of mankind, right? Like it's never been as good as it could be than it is right now. And I also believe that history tells us that everything in the future will also be better. Now, I say that with a big broad brushstroke because that's not entirely true of every specific little teeny tiny thing. But in the expanse of investing and that sort of stuff, I look at it and I say, my goodness, access to capital hasn't been easier. Entrepreneurship is on the rise and we innovate and create new stuff as a species faster than we ever have. And that's going to continue to make radical changes in our lives, which I think will be good. So I believe long term in the future. So the short term stuff doesn't really bother me. So I don't have as much of a strong opinion about like, oh my gosh, I must get rid of my house mortgage. Although to be fair, if somebody handed me a check for the payoff amount, I'd probably pay off my house.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, you've also talked about for you, the nature of having a 15 year loan versus a 30. We've debated that on the show. And you're like, you know what, although you can do it my way that I've talked about, take the 30 and invest the difference. You're like, nope, give me the 15.

[Doug]

I'm just picturing looking at a check for the exact amount of the payoff, thinking, h, what should I, Why would they. That's a funny amount. Why would they have written it for that amount?

[OG]

What should I do with house payoff? Supercar house payoff. Like Grant Cardone would tell me to buy assets. Like a supercar is an asset, right? So yellow. So I think just like history, I think I can sum up all my comments with history, both reflecting on the past to see where we've come from as a country, society, whatever you want to say. Also the market stuff that's happened over my investing career and my lifetime, but then also like a belief in the future and, you know, just unrelenting optimism about that stuff, which I know you guys are going to giggle about because you're like, when I think of unrelenting optimism, I think of OG Those are probably exactly like, when you look it up in the dictionary, it's like, got a Picture of me as it relates to investing and time horizon.

[Jesse Kramer]

I do have it.

[Joe Salsihai]

What do you think that Doug's anchors are?

[Doug]

Oh, this ought to be good.

[OG]

What do I think? I mean, Doug is an anchor. So can you have an anchor and be one at the same time?

[Joe Salsihai]

I don't know. Doug's anchor is probably that gut feeling you talk about Unreal engine optimism. I just have a gut feeling it's going to go well. It's fine.

[Doug]

What's wrong with that?

[OG]

Bourbon's probably an anchor.

[Joe Salsihai]

TikTok financial influencers named Chad Money Alpha. Would that be a good anchor? No.

[Jesse Kramer]

Doug's got a lot of equity built up in flannel wallpaper, and I feel like that's got to make him sleep well at night.

[Doug]

Tart and cozy.

[Joe Salsihai]

I want to ask about a couple other anchors that I had thought about. Paula, what about the anchor of maybe knowing what your enough number is, you know, knowing that you're going to be okay?

[Paula Pant]

Well, I think that depends on are you working as a means to an end or are you working because you enjoy the game? If you're working as a means to an end, if you're literally just in it for the paycheck, then absolutely know what your enough number is, know what your FI number is or your fire number and then have a path to be able to walk away. Because if it's a means to an end, then necessarily it's not your true calling. And you need freedom in order to be able to discover what your true calling is and move in that direction. But by contrast, if it is your true calling, if you're doing it because you love the game, you love the process, you love to build, that's different.

[Joe Salsihai]

Jesse, you brought up earlier with your life insurance anchor, which I really liked, you know, this idea of anchors around these life events that happen to us that we can't predict. One that we can predict, though, is retirement. You see how what a bumpy road that can be for some people. What about the anchor around, you know, trying not to build your identity around your job?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I mean, right. I mean, there's so many different retirement topics that we could probably talk about here when it just comes to uncertainty and the different anchors in life. But yeah, there's just at this point, so much good research and copious research about kind of the personality or like the identity shift in retirement. And yeah, I'd say, you know, the average retiree probably underestimates how much of their social circle is tied to work, how much of their identity is Tied to. I wake up every day and for 45 or 50 hours a week or 40 hours a week, I am a ex. Right. It's my job. It's who I am and it's who I have been for 40 years. And to detach, I mean really to like, it's funny talking about anchors and boating terms. The term that you'll sometimes hear people say is like they've been unmoored. Oh yeah, there's another naval term for you. Like retirement has made me feel unmoored. I don't exactly know who I am or how to move through this world anymore. So.

[Joe Salsihai]

Right.

[Jesse Kramer]

It's not just like the financial anchor of having six months of an emergency fund and having 25 times your expenses sometimes. It's also like those, those personality, identity, social relationship type anchors of who are you going to be when you're no longer a pediatrician? Not, not every retiree thinks about that.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's funny that you say that because as you're talking about being about unmoored, I'm like, I've heard that before someplace. And I realized halfway through you talking about it, Jesse. It's in my keynote topic on this same happy retirement. I have a video of a guy talking about it's being unmooring. He says it's unmooring. So it's funny. I'm like, where did. I'm hearing that somewhere. Oh, it's in your own talk. Damn it.

[Jesse Kramer]

Some really smart person put it in a speech. Joe.

[Joe Salsihai]

Some brilliant guy. I don't know where that came from. As OG said earlier, we've got an idea that Simone talked about on Wednesday called one door and two door. One door and two door decisions. One way door and two way door. That's better decisions and also a Mount Everest analogy. We're going to get to those in the second half. But we always pause halfway through a stacking Benjamin's Friday show to see how our three frequent contributors are going to get on with this year long trivia challenge we have now we've got an interesting thing happening. We're not even halfway through the year. Doug and OG is well ahead of record setting pace. Our record is 1818 points in a year. And what's our score so far?

[Doug]

Well, right now we have OG at 9. So you're right, not halfway through the year and he's already halfway to the record. So we've got a chance to break through that ceiling again. We have Jesse at 4, he just picked up a point last week. And Paula sitting comfortably in her normal Location and last with three points. I want to point out, it's important to note competitors. We've got the gang back together again this week. We only have four, maybe five more episode Friday episodes left for you to use quarters.

[OG]

There is not a game in America where halfway through the game, the ref comes out and goes, hey, just so you guys know, each team's got two timeouts. We're getting late in the quarter. You might want to think about using them. Just saying, right?

[Doug]

They put it on the television, Coach the game, man.

[OG]

Stay in your lane, bro.

[Jesse Kramer]

OG Is a sore winner.

[Doug]

He is.

[Joe Salsihai]

I just got to remind the listeners who might be new to the show that we do have this instrument that hasn't been in the show before called.

[OG]

Well, they were fixing to learn about it, but I guess not anymore. So way to ruin the surprise, Doug.

[Joe Salsihai]

Appreciate you, bud. Called. Called a margin call. Doug. Doug, how does a margin call work?

[Doug]

I don't want to stay in your effing lane anymore. I'm scared.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think you got to tell us how it works just for the audience, not for Paula and Jesse. Can you see your muffs?

[Doug]

Any. Any player can call a margin call on any other player at any point during Margin Call Doug while the question is being asked.

[OG]

I use all of my margin calls for the rest of the year on Doug not doing this ever again.

[Doug]

So as an example, if OG Called margin call on me and I got the question wrong, I would lose a point. Normally, you get it wrong, you just don't get anything, and the winner gets the point. But in this case, the person getting margin called, if they get it wrong, they actually lose a point. And if the person. Yeah, that's it. That's all I want to say right now.

[Joe Salsihai]

That is 100% it. Yes. All right. We have to have a question, though, to get this thing rolling. Doug, you've got the question. Is it okay, OG if he asked the question?

[OG]

I serve at your pleasure.

[Doug]

You're ready? Close to that. 3, 2, 3, 2, 1. Hey, there's Stackers.

[Joe Salsihai]

Who are you barging?

[OG]

Calling OG obviously Jesse.

[Joe Salsihai]

Call it, Jesse.

[Doug]

Oh, boy.

[Jesse Kramer]

Bring it.

[Doug]

Oh, boy. Here we.

[Jesse Kramer]

I knew that was just a charade. I knew there I was going to

[OG]

do it anyway, but he just kind of, you know.

[Jesse Kramer]

Did you know that OG was born in the same town as the guy who invented charades?

[Doug]

It's true.

[Jesse Kramer]

He's going to. He's going to tell you about it in this trivia answer.

[OG]

Hit it.

[Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And. And on today's date, back in 1953, Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay became the first confirmed people. Look at Paula's excitement.

[Paula Pant]

Nepal.

[Joe Salsihai]

Trinity.

[Paula Pant]

This is a Nepal question. This is a Nepal question. You guys gave me a question that you.

[Doug]

Oddly enough, the town where OG was born. Okay, I will continue. Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay became the first confirmed people to summit Mount Everest, which means they were also the first people to look around and say, you know what? This mountain needs more tourists and fleece vests and hiking sticks. Speaking of uncertainty, Simone Stolzoff talked this week about Everest climbers using strict turnaround times so they don't die chasing the summit. So today's trivia question is inspired by the world's tallest bad decision. Rounding to the nearest 100, approximately how many unique climbers have scaled the mountain? I'll be back with the answer right after I go scale the stairs to see whether Joe's mom finally changed the lock on the cookie jar. Apparently, OG's Emergency Snack Reserve has gotten a little out of hand.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, man. I only started laughing because I saw Paula say a bad word with the mute on.

[Paula Pant]

If the question had been, how tall is Mount Everest? In feet, it is 29,028ft. And in meters, it is 8,848 meters.

[Doug]

Au contraire.

[Paula Pant]

You could have made that the question.

[Doug]

Au contraire, my Nepalese descendant, because the height of Mount Everest was not long ago revised with better laser altitude detection, it is now 29,035. 5ft. Oh, it got taller. So that part's good for you guys.

[Paula Pant]

Nice.

[Joe Salsihai]

But I like the fact that that OG's not the only one mad at Doug now because we. Doug, you asked the wrong question. So now. Oh, we got Jesse just needs some excuse here.

[OG]

I wanted to see Paula go unhinged with the wrong answer of the.

[Joe Salsihai]

Of the.

[OG]

Of the. The. How many feet? Because that would have just been, like, under review. There have been a protest.

[Joe Salsihai]

Great. All right, we start off with you OG Unique climbers. Not the number.

[OG]

So number of unique climbers in the history of all mankind. Recorded climbers. Unique climbers. The answer is very simply, and I actually happen to know this because the most recent guy is. I know you guys are laughing, but from my hometown, I know him very well. But the answer is 3300 is the. You said nearest hundred. Doug is.

[Doug]

I do.

[OG]

Wanted.

[Doug]

I did.

[OG]

So 3300 is the closest hundred to the number of unique summiter. Did you. Oh, just out of clarity. You said summiters or climbers to have summited.

[Joe Salsihai]

Summiters.

[Doug]

Summiters who have summoned.

[OG]

Yeah. Okay. Just to make sure.

[Jesse Kramer]

Okay.

[OG]

Yes, it's 3300.

[Joe Salsihai]

All right, Jesse, you've got to beat that or you're going backwards, my friend.

[Jesse Kramer]

I. I know I could beat that. I know I can beat that. It's just a matter of if I can beat Paula. I have to do head games now with Paula because she knows she can't

[Doug]

even get that at the height. Correct. So I think you're safe.

[Jesse Kramer]

All right. EDMUND Hillary was 1950. Ish. So it's been 75 years, and for a while, probably nobody at all was climbing it. But recently, I think a lot of people have tried to been climbing it. I'm going to say 50 people a year for the first 50 years and a lot more people a year recently. So what does that get me to? 7,000 people. Nice and easy.

[Joe Salsihai]

7,000 people. It's almost roughly double. Oh, geez. Answer, Paula. Paula, I gotta say, this is a very tall question for somebody who may be slightly.

[Doug]

What he did there.

[Joe Salsihai]

Not tall. I mean, you look up to a lot of people, but I would guess if you've ever stood under Everest, like, you look way up. Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

I mean, there is some power in standing at 14,000ft, looking up another 14,000ft to the summit.

[Doug]

Have you done that? Have you been up there?

[Paula Pant]

I've been up. Not on Everest, but on Annapurna at 14,000.

[Doug]

But in that spot where you can then look up.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. It's crazy. That is a crazy, crazy sight to be at 14,000 looking up another 14, like being like, oh, that's the altitude where, like, commercial airplanes fly.

[Joe Salsihai]

When you told us to take that trip, Paul, it was the same. We got up to the top of our hike at 14,000ft, and my buddy Todd said exactly what you said. He's like, I've been up to the top of the Rockies several times, but I've never been looking straight up.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

At these mountains. Still crazy.

[Paula Pant]

At another 14 vertical, you know? Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

Beautiful hike going up to Annapurna. Great suggestion, Paula. Jesse, you had something.

[Jesse Kramer]

I was just wondering, like, when you guys were there and looking up, if you had to round to the nearest hundred, how many people did you see above?

[Joe Salsihai]

You asking for a friend, Paula?

[Paula Pant]

I'm gonna take the under. So I'm gonna go 3299 as my guess.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, you got around to 100.

[Paula Pant]

If I'm rounding to the nearest hundred, that would be 3200.

[Joe Salsihai]

3200. We've got 3200, 3300, 7000. So you think Jesse's way off?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, I do. Yeah. I think a lot of people climb to base camp. I think very few summit maybe 10 a year, 15, 20 a year. But also not for the first handful of years, you know. So if Tenzing Norgay and EDMUND Hillary were 1958, I would guess 53, I would guess commercial didn't really develop in earnest until maybe the 70s. So yeah, I'm just going to take the under.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, we'll see if Paul's line of reasoning finally works out for her. We will be.

[Paula Pant]

You could have asked the height. That one. That one I got in feet or meters? I got them both.

[Joe Salsihai]

If only. If only.

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[Joe Salsihai]

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[Joe Salsihai]

All right, OG we started with you, and we'll start with you here on the second half of today's show. 3300. You got a lot of room on the upside, not much on the downside.

[OG]

Yeah, I mean, it's okay. No, no, it's fine.

[Joe Salsihai]

Jesse Kramer, Your number's like double everybody else's. Does that worry you?

[Jesse Kramer]

I protest because just like OG Forced you to barging, call me. You guys forced me to guess a really, really high number. So similarly to OG I'm going to protest.

[Joe Salsihai]

Good. Now all the protests are in, Doug. Now everybody's angry. Paul, are you angry?

[Paula Pant]

No, no. I'm. I'm the one. But, you know, the Nepalese are known as peaceful people.

[Joe Salsihai]

Except Doug asked the wrong question. Except for that. Yes.

[OG]

All right.

[Paula Pant]

He had to make it a fair competition.

[Joe Salsihai]

Doug, you've got the answer. Is Jesse losing a point? Is OG gaining a point? Fog gains a point, and Jesse loses a point. That means Paul is back to tied for second. Is that what's going to happen, Doug?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, let's find out. Hey, there, stackers. I'm altitude adjuster and combination cracker, Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Turns out climbing Everest is a lot like investing. Everybody's excited on the way up, but the people who survive are the ones who know when to turn around. In fact, most Everest deaths happen during the descent because climbers are exhausted, low on oxygen, and too committed to the goal to quit. Which honestly sounds a lot like somebody holding on to a meme stock six months too long. So how many unique climbers rounding to the nearest hundred have scaled Everest? Well, I will tell you that it was 3901 more than what Paula guessed, 3900 more than what OG guessed, and just 200 more than what Jesse guessed. The correct answer is 7200, making Jesse our winner and avoiding the margin call.

[Paula Pant]

Wow.

[Jesse Kramer]

How do I go double or nothing

[Joe Salsihai]

on, oh, OG Congratulations. You survived the margin call. Jesse.

[Jesse Kramer]

So I get one and OG loses one. Correct.

[Joe Salsihai]

You just get one. He can't margin call you again for the rest of the quarter.

[Jesse Kramer]

Got it. So there's no downside to losing a margin call. Are you guys sure about that?

[Joe Salsihai]

There's a downside to you, Right, but

[Jesse Kramer]

there's no downside to calling margin call. And then not following up with by winning.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, that doesn't sound right at all. I can't send it to Wichita. Margin call poses a risk to the person taking out margin. Wait, so does Jesse get two points?

[Joe Salsihai]

Jesse gets one point and avoids losing a.

[OG]

No, Paula.

[Jesse Kramer]

They're saying I was put at risk, but I had nothing to gain by it.

[Paula Pant]

This is what. None of this makes sense. Absolutely none of it.

[Joe Salsihai]

Wait a minute. Are you saying. Wait a minute, hold on a second. Are you saying there's nothing about the Stacky Benjamin's trivia competition that makes sense? Are you actually postulating that?

[Paula Pant]

It just. The more I think through it, the less sense it makes.

[Joe Salsihai]

It took her how many years of this show to have that happen? Let's go into the part that does make sense, which is our discussion about Simone Stolzoff and this idea of uncertainty which we know is going to be there for our whole life. Right. I mean, in investing and in everything that happens, there's always this fog around us and dealing with it is really a struggle. So let's open up the second half of this discussion with this idea of one way door versus two way door decisions. And to tell you what this is all about, Simone brought up a Jeff Bezos framework that some decisions are one way doors, meaning you walk through it, you can't walk it back. This is an irrevocable decision and others are two way doors. And yet we treat tiny decisions often like their life or death events. Right. You see us, Paula, putting off moves to our budget because, man, I don't want to, like, I don't want to get rid of the Netflix today because if I get rid of Netflix and I decide two weeks later the new show comes out, what would I do? So I guess I'll just keep it just in case. We do this all the time.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, we do. But with a Netflix thing, it's low stakes. I think the bigger thing is when we have like big dollar, high stakes decisions, but we put off making changes because, you know, we know that our home is too big and we could downsize, but there's so much friction involved in that that it feels daunting. So we just never start the process. Right. Or the car is too new, we could get something cheaper, but again, that's a heavy workload. So we put off the process and then three years go by and then it's not that new anymore. Not as new anymore, you know?

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, 100%. And oh gee, it seems like a lot of financial decisions like buying the investment Right. I think this might be half a reason why we automate, isn't it? Is because left to our own devices, where we go, oh, no, no, I'll send in a check every month. I'll go deposit money in my Vanguard account. Like, yeah, that's going to happen.

[OG]

Well, but those are decisions that are changeable, you know, and that's the whole idea. Like, is this a decision that you can fix, you can redo, you can edit, or is this something you're locked in on? I think that decisions that you have that you can redo without much consequence, you should just do them, like, pay almost no attention to the thinking process. And I also think this is a great opportunity, especially when it comes to saving and investing, to radically swing the pendulum in one direction. Because you can say, I don't know if I can max out. I don't know if I've got enough cash flow to pull that off or if my lifestyle will be able to shrink down to be able to max out my 401. But to heck with it, I'll just try it and see what happens. Because I can change it a paycheck later, you know, to go from 1000 bucks a paycheck back down to 500 or to 650 or something like that, and I'm off by one paycheck. You know, it's not the end of the world to try that out. The harder things are, which of these two jobs do I take? Not that you can't change jobs, but you know, when you've got, you've got an outcome like that or something less and less frequent. But which pension option do I pick? Which Social Security option do I have? Although technically there's a little bit of changes that you could do there. It's a lot harder to unwind. So you get to make this once, spend a lot of time. If you can make this decision tomorrow and change your mind the next day, don't spend any time on it, just get after it.

[Joe Salsihai]

It is funny though, because different investments are treated different ways. I mean, Jesse, let's take this. Oh, gee, you know, talking about switching index funds. Okay. Two way door, right? Calm down. Buying a house, though, maybe a little bit of a different idea.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I mean, I think because another kind of conceptual term, along with the doors and directionality, so like the friction involved with some of these decisions. Right. And so when you're talking about like that home buying purchase, there are all these frictional costs and then there's just like the, the time that you've committed to making this choice and the hassle of moving all your stuff in and unpacking it. And so. Right. So sometimes it's not that you can't undo the home purchase because you can throw it back on the market, but there are all these frictional costs involved that kind of make it hard or make it feel like a sunk cost and now you're not going to want to undo it. So. Right. So I guess sometimes it's not that like strictly speaking it's impossible to undo a particular decision, it's just that some decisions are so much easier or so much less consequential to undo. I think that's part of what Paula was talking about too, is just like, well, sometimes it's like, okay, it might be technically a one way door, but if it's not that big of a deal to undo it, then whatever, pay the $5 penalty and undo the decision. But yes, some are just there's so much friction involved in the decision and that really ought to make you pause and think first before you follow through and kind of walk through that door

[Joe Salsihai]

is the difference here, Paul? I mean I agree with all of what Jesse said, but also the fact that this is a huge amount of money we talk about a house versus maybe. I mean don't get me wrong, you put every could put everything into an index fund. But is the magnitude of the purchase around a house the thing that changes it?

[Paula Pant]

It's all of the above. It's the magnitude, it's the friction. And then when it comes to a house specifically, the true one way door is selling a house because once you've unloaded that asset, you can never buy that asset back like that seller is, unless in a very, very rare circumstance, that seller might be willing to sell it back to you. But in 90, 999 times out of a thousand, that's not going to happen. That's truly a one way door.

[Joe Salsihai]

OG is changing jobs, let's say at age 40, is that a one way door or a two way door?

[OG]

I mean, I guess technically two. I mean because you can change jobs as many times as you want, I suppose. Right. Or at least you could try to. I'm not sure. It depends on your skill set. Maybe is a better way to think about it. But.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, and actually to your point. Yeah. I mean if I'm going from mechanical engineer to mechanical engineer, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about changing careers at 40,

[OG]

I still don't think it is. I mean I don't remember the research on this. But isn't it something like, you know, the average person will have like three or four careers in their lifetime, not just jobs. I mean, so I think you need to. You need to fish where the fish are sometimes, right? And you go to school, you do whatever and you find out like, this is not the lane I want to be in, you know, and then now there's a cost to doing that. Maybe education is one of these cost structure concepts where it's like, you know, I go down the path of I'm going to be an accountant and I realize I really hate accounting, but I realize it too late. And I mean into my senior year of college. And I think that's too late in reality. Of course it's not. But now I've got all this cost like you guys were talking about in terms of sunk costs. It's like, but I really want to be an engineer. Or maybe you're an engineer and you really want to be a financial planner. There's some. Did somebody say friction already? Is that why that's in my brain?

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, Jesse did.

[OG]

I'm trying to think of a new word.

[Jesse Kramer]

What podcast were you on?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[OG]

Yes. But there's going to be some cost to unwinding something always. And whether or not you view that as a one way street or a two way street, I think is relative to your current situation. But yeah, I just go back to decision making kind of top of the funnel stuff for me, which is, can I undo this tomorrow? If the answer is yes. Very little effort put into it in terms of thinking through the choice.

[Joe Salsihai]

It is interesting Rocky Mark hanging out with us live here on YouTube. We record these on Monday. It's always fun to pretend it's Friday on a Monday. Rocky Mark said, I'm trying to go from electrical engineer to content creators. I'm knocking a 40. Not as easy as you all make it look. Oh, content creation that we make it look. I thought you were talking about the shift, Rocky Mark. And I was. I was thinking, wait a minute. I don't think we're talking about it being an easy shift. I think it's a tough shift. Whenever you change. Whenever you change. And maybe even though it can be a two way door poll, I think maybe you should treat it like it's a one way door to. What's that phrase from the. Either the Iliad or the Odyssey where Achilles burns his ships.

[Paula Pant]

Ah, yes. Okay. When you talk about the specificity of making that change. Right. Once you leave a particular job, leaving that job is Definitely a one way door. Like you are unlikely to get rehired at that same company, same organization. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that quitting is very much a one way door. And then in terms of the career shift overall, like shifting from electrical engineer to content creator or any other career shift, the more time that passes, the more it becomes a one way door. Because if you've not been an electrical engineer for three months, you can probably get an electrical engineering job again. Your skills are still current enough, but if you've not been an electrical engineer for five years, it's going to be very difficult to get rehired. I mean, and maybe you can work for yourself or start a consulting business or something, but the more time that passes and your skill set atrophies, the

[Joe Salsihai]

more it is a one way door,

[Paula Pant]

the more it does become a one way door.

[OG]

Yeah, yeah, well, and this is one of those things I think also when it comes to like the sabbatical idea, not that you can't do it, but I think you have to be aware of what you're talking about, where it's like, especially if you're in a technical field that every year has some reasonable advancement in terms of like new thinking, new tools, new whatever, and you go, oh, I'm going to work really hard from 25 to 40, then I can take a 10 year sabbatical and once the kids are done, then I'll go back to work. It's like maybe a lot happens if five years or I mean sometimes even a year or two is, is hard to catch up in terms of what is going on, if it's a very specialized field. So not saying you shouldn't do that. I'm just saying like that's a, that's a, that's something to think about. Right.

[Joe Salsihai]

Let's go on to the last construct that Simone talks about. Because at some point you're chasing something and it just doesn't become viable. Right? You're going after something and the uncertainty becomes just unbearable and it's time to go. You know what? This is an uncertainty as much as it's a, it's an errand I shouldn't be chasing. To Doug's point earlier around the Everest climbers, you know, Simone talks about the Everest climbers having these turnaround times. At some point they stop climbing even if the summit's closed because you know that it's going off the rails. What financial kind of kill criteria should we have around our goals, Jesse? Is there a framework you have where we go, you know what this just isn't worth it.

[Jesse Kramer]

My gut instinct, Joe, is to say that probably every situation is going to call for its own unique kill criteria.

[Joe Salsihai]

But.

[Jesse Kramer]

But at the same time, when we're talking about this, these ideas we've been talking about for the last 10 minutes of, like, the one way and two way door and all that stuff. Absolutely. I think you need to understand what that, for lack of a better term, kill criteria looks like for you. I mean, I don't know if OG Was kind of smiling at me as he was talking about my kind of career change, right, from engineering to financial planning, because, like, I had it in my mind that, hey, okay, what's the worst case? A couple years, I get into it, and I'm just not earning enough money to make it worthwhile. And at what point do I say I have to look myself in the mirror and decide to go back to engineering? For me, that was like, 18 to 24 months, and I knew that going in, and that was kind of my Runway. And I think maybe whether it's kill criteria or maybe Runway is a. Is a. Is a softer way of saying it. Like, whenever you make one of those big decisions, understanding what kind of Runway, you have to figure out if it's worthwhile, I think that's really smart, A really smart thing to do on day one, hopefully. Because on day one, you're not quite as emotionally invested, and, you know, you're a little bit of clearer mind and able to say in that clear mind, here's when I need to. To call it if it comes to that. I don't know. Again, going back to what you asked, Joe, I don't know if there's, like, a hard and fast rule to follow, but I guess every situation, I might have to react uniquely.

[Joe Salsihai]

I do like the fact that you brought up coming up with it ahead of time, though, because I do think it also makes you more focused when, you know, this is my shot. It's not over by then. Then I've got. You know, I think every day becomes you. You can feel the timer running. You know, Paula, you brought up entrepreneurship at the top of the show today. This is the hardest with entrepreneurs. Right. Because you'll struggle with something for you. Give yourself two year Runway. I've worked with entrepreneurs here. They give themselves two years. The product still hasn't taken off, and they're like, but it's just around the corner. It's almost there. It's so close. Like, that's. That's a painful place to be.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. To the extent that it's possible. And of course, every business is unique and different. So take this with a grain of salt and make it specific to your own. You know, your results may vary, but if there is any way to maintain the broad line of what you're doing. But iterate pivot, just, just keep pivoting until you find that right product market fit. Like until it, keep pivoting until it works, essentially. I think for many endeavors it can work, but it might not look anything like what it looks like right now.

[Joe Salsihai]

I saw this with our friend Andy Hill. Andy went off and was working for himself, but really need to supplement the income. So Paula, he kind of went full bore working for himself to working for himself part time just to make sure that he could keep the dream alive to the point where he is today, where he largely just works for himself, does his own thing, not. Not farming it out to other people.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah. So in that case, it was a stepping stone. The part time thing was a stepping stone.

[Joe Salsihai]

Pivot, pivot, pivot until you find it. I like that. Oh gee. When it comes to the portfolio, it reminds me of a client that I had back in the day. We set up a risk tolerance as X and every time the market went, there was a, some geopolitical event or some problem, she would call, afraid, and I finally flipped the kill switch and said, you know what, we got to back down your risk. And she goes, no, we can't do that. No. Why? Why? Why? I said, because you can't sleep at

[OG]

night because I'm tired of answering your phone calls.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, she admitted she was having trouble sleeping at night, which is why she was calling me. I'm like, this is disturbing you. When your risk tolerance disturbs your mental health. Who cares if 100% equities is, quote, the right thing to do? It's not the right thing for you.

[OG]

Well, I think this is just focused on the wrong thing. I mean, my second grade teacher used to say, you're focusing on the wrong syllable when we were practicing those two syllable words that Doug struggles with all the time. So it's like, you know, look at the eye roll. Epic eye roll. Just came up out of his nap right to an eye roll. But the absent understanding, the impacts. And this is what I was talking about earlier about like those second decisions. It's like if the second order decisions, like that's perfectly fine, you know, if you want to say like, well, I only want to make 5% of my money because that makes me sleep better at night. It's like all right, let's make sure that you can sleep better until you're 77, because that's how long you have to work till. And so now you start evaluating the real impact of the decision. Not just in the like, I'm scared phase, which frankly happens to everybody. I know it happens. It's happened to me many times. I distinctly remember during COVID when Marco was down a whole bunch, going for a walk with my wife and going like that was at the time, kind of the third one of those. Like, like literally going, I don't know that I want to do this for the third time. Like, this is so stressful and it's so hard to have the weight of all of this for everybody, you know, and so we feel the same way. We're not immune to it. But I think, like, in the context of what other choice is there? To me it becomes a real easy decision when it's something like investment, volatility. You know, it's like, well, my volatility is scaring me. Okay, well, what's going to scare you more? Being broke or running out of money? Because here's what happens if we don't get that. And maybe the answer is it's a combo, you know, And I think having an understanding of what those other dominoes that fall are make make those things a little easier to work through.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think that's a great way to leave it. The idea of building anchors, creating some rules before the emotions hit the thinking about the kill switch and one way doors versus two way doors. Some great constructs I think, to work through, to deal with uncertainty. We are certain of a few things. And that's what you guys are creating this weekend before we get there. Oh, geez. This last weekend in May. How you celebrating?

[OG]

Oh, I'm getting ready to go to Disney, obviously, because it's the end of May.

[Joe Salsihai]

I'm going to Disney.

[OG]

As if.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, right.

[OG]

Nope, Finishing my. Got a big weekend of cycling this weekend and then I'm going to take a week off, a little recovery week while I get like, you know, 30,000 steps walking around Disney parks. So, you know, nice recovery on the legs week.

[Joe Salsihai]

Pull a pant. What's going on in the amazing show? Afford anything?

[Paula Pant]

Well, you know, on most of our Tuesday shows, Jo, you join us. You and I answer questions that come from the audience. And so we've had a couple of fairly entertaining ones. Joe, where your face was like the third guest on the show.

[Joe Salsihai]

Like, wait, what?

[Paula Pant]

We had this one recording. I think that episode probably just came out. I would say something and Joe's like, verbally would say one thing, but his face would say something totally different. So if you want to watch our YouTube channel, YouTube.com afford anything. You see Joe's like stated take, and then Joe's like facial expression take.

[Joe Salsihai]

Trying to hold it together for the audio people.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Salsihai]

And then Paula calls it out, which, yeah, damn video drives you crazy. Video.

[Paula Pant]

Kill the radio star Joe.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yes. So check out the Afford Anything audio feed. But don't go near, don't go near that YouTube page, that amazing afford anything YouTube page available where finer YouTube videos are found. I guess it makes sense that the finest YouTube videos would be found on YouTube, wouldn't it?

[Paula Pant]

How? How did you guess?

[Joe Salsihai]

So weird. Jesse Kramer, Personal Finance for Long Term Investors. The show that's rocketing up the greatest hits chart. What's going on, man?

[Jesse Kramer]

Hey, we might break into, I don't know, top 100 here soon. I think if you look at upstate New York personal finance podcasts produced by people 33 to 37 years old, we've broken into the top 100. No, I'm excited. So this past Wednesday, part one released, next Wednesday, part two will release of a Charlie Munger inspired series of episodes, the 14 biggest risks in Retirement, where we kind of use Munger's version, Munger's method of inversion, you know, invert the problem, look at it inside out, and we look at the. The 14 biggest risks in retirement and therefore we kind of back out different things we can do to mitigate those risk.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's fabulous. I love that, that, that's a good way to set anchors too, you know.

[Jesse Kramer]

It is, it is. Charlie Munger was a, was very much an anchor guy right there.

[Joe Salsihai]

And that is at the Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast. Before we say goodbye, we have had a chat in the back between Doug and I. Quite a chat since the halfway point. And so, Doug, you did a little digging?

[Doug]

Yeah. Well, what's worse than even the chat we had, Joe, was you never like to get a call from Dottie in Wichita. That's a bad day when you get the call from her. Instead of us having to reach out and ask for advice and, you know, you've really messed things up. And I was so intimidated and scared by OG because he was so angry, angrier even than normal, that I did not read the full rules. I will now, in their entirety, unabridged, read the rules of trivia. Each contestant gets one margin call per quarter. If a contestant has zero points, they can't use A margin call. They specify the opponent that they want a margin call. That's rule number one. Rule number two, if the person margin called gets the correct answer, they gain a point as usual and the margin callee loses a point. Rule number three, if the person margin called gets the answer wrong, they lose a point, obviously. Number four, if the margin called gets the wrong answer and the margin callee gets the correct answer, it's essentially a two point swing, which is what happened today. And lastly, if there is a tie, whether a margin call has been called or not, that point gets divided among those with the correct answer. Those are the rules in their entirety.

[OG]

I mean, everybody knew this.

[Doug]

They did eliminate one controversial rule.

[Paula Pant]

But this means you lose a point.

[OG]

OG I'm aware of it.

[Paula Pant]

I know we had earlier established that there was no risk to the margin caller.

[OG]

No, you guys said that erroneously.

[Joe Salsihai]

Tuned out.

[Jesse Kramer]

OG Just didn't want to speak up in the earlier conversation. He was hoping.

[OG]

I was just waiting for you guys to catch up. Mr. Rules guy that seems to know everything but has to, like, have it. I've already got it on my card, bro. See, there it is. I already scribbled it out.

[Joe Salsihai]

See, he's just waiting for DOY to catch up with Doug. Well, there we go.

[OG]

Wait for y' all to get with the program.

[Joe Salsihai]

There we go.

[Doug]

So now, going into next Friday's trivia, Jesse will have five points, OG Will have eight points, and Paula, as happy as she is at this moment, will still have just three points.

[Paula Pant]

That means the coalition is tied with OG Yes.

[OG]

The great news is I'm abstaining from all trivia questions from here on out. So I will. I will not answer now through Memorial Day.

[Jesse Kramer]

No more questions for OG No, I'm gonna.

[OG]

My answer is zero from here on out. I'll see how many I win with 0.

[Juan Naula]

Then.

[Joe Salsihai]

He can't get the record. He's. He's missing out on the record. All right, that's gonna do it. We'll keep fighting about this afterwards in the green room. Doug, you've got it from here, man. What should we have learned on today's show?

[Doug]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from Paula. Maintaining cash reserves can definitely help you deal with. With uncertainty. Second, don't forget what OG said. When the world seems scary, every decision feels major. But that's just not reality. Even in uncertain times, many decisions you make are undoable. But the big lesson, never confuse a two way door decision with a one way door decision. For example, trying a new restaurant two way door. Easy telling Joe's mom. You improved her cookie recipe very much. A one way door. That's a one way door. It hurts when it hits you on the backside. Thanks to Jesse Kramer for joining us today. Want to hear more from him? Check out his podcast called Filthy. And if you're uninitiated, that means personal finance for long term investors. It's obvious Filthy. We'll also include links in our show notes@stacking benjamin's.com. thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fabulous podcast afford anything wherever you listen to find her podcast. And finally, thanks to OG for joining us today. Looking for good financial planning help, head to stacking benjamin.com OG for his calendar. This show is the property of SB Podcast LLC, Copyright 2026 and is created by Joe Salsihai. You'll find out find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello and oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin show.

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