Suze Orman Changes Her Mind on Working to 70 (SB1807)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Suze Orman Changes Her Mind on Working to 70" (SB1807)

The Stacking Benjamins Show – February 23, 2026
Host: Joe Saul-Sehy, OG, Doug, Guest Host: Len Penzo (LenPenzo.com)
Special Topic: Suze Orman’s new stance on the traditional advice to work until 70

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Overview

In this engaging, laughter-filled episode, Joe, OG, Doug, and guest Len Penzo break down Suze Orman's recent shift away from her long-held advice to work until 70 for the best retirement outcome. They explore why financial advice evolves, discuss real-world retirement planning, and emphasize that time is our most precious resource. With stories, personal anecdotes, and a memorable TikTok clip, they provide nuanced perspectives on Social Security, retirement flexibility, stress-testing your plan, and finding purpose after work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Suze Orman’s Change: No Longer Pushing 'Work to 70'

• [09:38-11:04] The team reacts to Suze Orman’s shift:
  • Previously: Work until 70 to maximize Social Security and retirement security.
  • Now: Recognizes that may not be the best or most realistic recommendation for everyone.
  • Joe: "She previously advocated for not retiring before 70...but she seems to have softened her stance." (09:55)
  • Doug (joking): “She’s like 74 now…she’s like this sucks.” (11:04)

Why the Change?

• Aging changes perspective; math still makes sense, but 'work' at 70 feels different.
• Not everyone's job is fulfilling or easy to continue (e.g., manual labor vs. business owner).
• OG: "You don't need as much money to retire if you work till you're 87. It’s like, well, true. Also, you’re working till you're 87.” (11:16)

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Social Security Timing: One Size Doesn’t Fit All

• [12:59-16:40] Suze now advocates “bridge strategies”—use savings first, delay Social Security if possible.
• Len Penzo shares his plan:
  • "I'm holding off until 70...I want that bigger number." (14:18)
  • But: "It’s always crazy when somebody gives...a one size fits all answer. We all have different goals and financial situations." (13:32)
  • Longevity, health, spousal benefits—many variables.
  • OG: "For most people, it’s not just about you…Whoever dies first gets the bigger number." (15:19)
  • Len: Shares mother-in-law’s story; she took Social Security due to health issues but outlived her prognosis by 16 years. “You don’t know…so many unknowns.” (16:40)

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Suze’s "New" Retirement Rules (and Why They Matter)

1. Stress-Test Your Retirement Plan

• [17:54-22:04] Plan for worst- and best-case scenarios:
  • Don’t assume your current income source will last (e.g., sudden drop in blogging income from $40k to $3k/year).
  • Monte Carlo simulations: understand when you might need to make adjustments, not just if your plan ‘fails.’
  • Enjoy life if portfolio outperforms—don’t just accumulate for the sake of it.
  • Len: “Try not to include Social Security at all…if you can hit that number, anything you earn in Social Security…is just gravy.” (13:53)

2. Maintain Liquidity

• [25:57-30:49] Suze recommends access to cash.
  • Panel agrees, but clarifies: not all assets need to be in cash; just make sure you can access what you need.
  • Real illiquid assets (real estate, private equity) may limit flexibility.
  • Joe: “You don’t have to be so religious about it…money is money, right? If you have enough, you’re good.” (28:58)
  • Len: Shares minor hiccup with his first IRA withdrawal—lesson learned, but manageable. (29:38-30:49)

3. Prioritize Peace of Mind & 'Purpose'

• [35:52-49:22] Featured TikTok Minute (Bill on Retirement):

  • Bill describes the evolution from needing every moment to be meaningful, to simply enjoying ‘spending’ time—finding fulfillment without maximizing every minute.
  • Len: “Time becomes more obviously precious the older you get…to me, the only wasting time is doing things you don’t want to do.” (37:20-39:09)
  • Panel discusses the myth that you need a ‘grand purpose’ after retirement; happiness often comes from simply enjoying your time and not filling it with things you dislike.

  “If you aren’t happy with what you have, you’re not going to be happy with what you get.” — Doug (44:34)

  • The panel acknowledges research supports some need for new purpose after work—‘Little p’ purpose is fine. Don’t stress about finding one grand mission.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• OG on the changing definition of work:
  “Len’s retired from your corporate job, but I bet you still do some work, right? You still have your writing and occasional media appearances on the Stacking Benjamins show... Fully paid, of course, in IOUs.” (12:34)

• Len’s take on Social Security planning:
  "Try not to include Social Security at all…if you can hit that number, anything you earn in Social Security…is just gravy." (13:53)

• On spending in retirement:
  “If you’re slaying it because you make extra blog income… or because your portfolio did better… like, what are we doing? Like, just accumulating money for the sake of accumulating it?” — Joe (21:44)

• On time in retirement:
  “Time is priceless… you realize more the older you get it’s the most precious thing you do have.” — Len (37:20)

• On happiness & purpose:
  “It is so possible to be content and happy with what you have… without having some major second or third chapter.” — Doug (45:17)

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Practical Takeaways

• There is no universal rule for when to take Social Security or when to retire—know your numbers, your health, and your family situation.
• Regularly stress-test your plan for negative surprises and upside opportunities; be flexible and ready to adjust.
• Liquidity matters but doesn’t require hoarding cash—just make sure you can access funds when needed.
• Time is more precious than money in retirement; don’t feel pressured to maximize every minute—value what makes you happy.
• Don’t chase a ‘big P’ purpose unless it comes naturally; being at peace with how you spend your time is a valid goal.

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Noteworthy Segments & Timestamps

• [09:38] – Suze Orman’s Big Retirement Advice Shift
• [12:59] – Social Security Timing: Debunking One-Size-Fits-All
• [17:54] – Stress-Testing Your Retirement Plan
• [25:57] – The Realities of Liquidity in Retirement
• [35:52] – TikTok Minute: The Value of Time in Retirement
• [44:34] – Discussion: Do You Need a Grand Purpose to Be Happy?
• [47:09] – Research vs. Real Life: Happiness, Purpose, and Retirement Satisfaction

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Community Moments

• Celebration in the Stacking Benjamins Facebook Group (“The Basement”) for a member (“Articulate Apricot”) reaching a $1M net worth (50:14-54:00).
• Crowd shares that becoming a millionaire is a huge but not widely discussed milestone.
• Fun, candid discussions about unexpected retirement expenses (pet subscriptions, squirrel food!) in the after show. (59:05-62:47)

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Tone & Style

The episode maintains Stacking Benjamins’ hallmark light, witty, and conversational tone—a “financial roundtable” full of both laughs and pragmatic advice. The hosts freely share personal stories, bad puns, and relatable mishaps, making even complex financial concepts accessible and engaging.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for anyone wrestling with the nuances of retirement—especially if you’ve ever worried that you might be ‘doing it wrong’ if you aren’t working until 70 or don’t have a big ‘purpose’ planned. Suze Orman’s pivot opens up a thoughtful, human-centric conversation: flex for your lifestyle, focus on what makes you comfortable, and above all, honor the value of your time.

[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Joe]

We heard you.

[Doug]

Nine years of bring back the snack wrap and you've won.

[Joe]

But maybe you should have asked for more.

[Len Penzo]

Say hello to the hot honey snack wrap.

[Joe]

Now you've really won. Go to McDonald's and get it while you can.

[OG]

It's another Monday in America, which means we have to have a toast. Len, did you bring a mug? He's got the dog mug. That's a cool mug.

[Len Penzo]

My puppy.

[OG]

Your gigantic pup. How tall is that dog?

[Len Penzo]

It's backwards.

[OG]

Zeppelin's dad.

[Len Penzo]

Yep. Yeah, that pup's very tall. I. You know what? I. I don't know how he's a. He can rest his chin on our kitchen countertop.

[OG]

Yeah, I would tell you, Doug, that Zeppelin is. Is well named. Well, well named.

[Doug]

Does he crash and burn a lot?

[OG]

Yeah, they were gonna go with no, they were gonna get too soon. They were going to go with F150, but then they're like, that's not big enough. We need something. Something bigger.

[Doug]

When you see Zeppelin poop, do you say, oh, the humanity.

[OG]

I hate to interrupt that by saluting our troops, but if you guys don't mind, I'd like to say that while we're talking poop, there are people who protected us so we could spend time talking poop. So on behalf of the men and women making podcast in mom's basement and the men and women out there stacking Benjamins, thanks to our service members, cheers. Let's go stack some Benjamins together, shall we?

[Joe]

Oh, sounds like somebody's got a case of the Mondays.

[Doug]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and on today's show, the great Susie Orman has changed her. Wait, what? She changed her mind? That's incredible. We're going to chat about exactly what the queen of personal finance thinks today and what what that might mean for your own money. But that's not all. I'll also share a TikTok minute about retirement that you won't want to miss. And of course, I'll also deal you in on some spine tingling money trivia. And now three guys who make you tingle every time they say the words compounding interest. It's Joe OG And Len P. P.

[Joe]

What?

[OG]

Hey, Stack in the guest host seat today. Mr. Leno's here. How are you, my friend?

[Joe]

We changed a lot.

[Len Penzo]

I'm doing great. The question is, how are you doing there, Joe?

[OG]

Now that you're here, I'm doing so much better.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, but you Know why I asked that? Cuz this is recording day. You know what? It's your birthday, my friend. Happy birthday to you.

[OG]

It is a day where we celebrate another trip around the sun.

[Len Penzo]

I love it.

[Doug]

Is that the creaking sound I've been hearing this whole time?

[OG]

You know how I remember?

[Len Penzo]

And I remember your birthday every year because mine's yours.

[OG]

Because yours is coming up tomorrow.

[Len Penzo]

Mine's tomorrow. You know, we're getting older, obviously, which is never fun, but there are some good things to it, right? You get older, you get wise, right? And that wisdom that I've attained now I finally learned how to have a smoking hot body in an old age. Finally. I finally discovered the secret and get cremated.

[OG]

And welcome back to Lead Penzo to the Lead Show.

[Len Penzo]

You miss me? That quality humor.

[OG]

I don't know, Og, how are you, man?

[Joe]

I mean, I'm just sitting here enjoying being young. You guys all talking about being old and getting older and Doug's like the middle child. That's what Doug's. I'm like the one that everybody likes because he's the young one. I'm the surprise baby in this group.

[OG]

The one where the parents have already resigned themselves to the fact that they've given up. Yes, they're done.

[Joe]

Absolutely. Can I watch YouTube until 2 in the morning? Absolutely. We don't.

[Len Penzo]

Sure.

[OG]

Whatever. We're going to be coming. Susie Orbit has changed her mind about something important about retirement. We'll find out what that is later on in the show. Len, this particular tik Tok minute that we have today, I really want to get your take and also, OG, I want to get your take because it'll be interesting to have you hear what this gentleman says about retirement. And as a guy who now has been officially retired, but not from of course the blogger writing, but from other endeavors. Mr. Penzo, this guy also has been retired a couple years and give some insight there. And for people that aren't retired yet, people planning retirement, this is your retirement planning episode. So sit back, relax, grab a sheet of paper, however you take notes because I think we got a lot on the agenda today. We have a couple sponsors who help us keep on keeping on. We're going to hear from them and then Og, Len, Doug and I, we're going to dive into Susie Orman changing her mind. I've worked in so many different fields. University development, water treatment, financial planning, podcasting. While there might not be much of a through line between any of those jobs, you know what you always need is the right person for the Job Getting hiring right. That is a skill that you want to master quickly and that you need good partners around you to help you. Do you want to match the right candidate with the right job with Indeed Sponsored Jobs? If you're hiring well, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post even seen on other sites. You'll match with quality candidates with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get matched with and hire quality candidates that can drive those results you need regardless of the type of business you're in. Target your post to candidates that meet your specific criteria like your skills, certifications, the location sponsored jobs Boost your job post for quality candidates so you can reach the people that can help your business thrive. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs you only pay for results. That is a boost whenever you need to find quality talent. And if you learn anything from Stacking Benjamin's Headlines, you know we need data to support our argument. Well, how about this piece of data? Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed. 95% more likely to report a higher than non sponsored jobs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all the boxes. Less stress, less time and more results now with Indeed sponsored Jobs. And because you're a stacker, you're going to get a 75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support Stacking Benjamin's by saying you heard about Indeed right here Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right Way with Indeed. Well, if you own a house, you know that it's amazing until it's not. And I'm laughing because you don't want to cry, right? One minute you're sipping coffee, in the next you're ankle deep in water from a burst pipe. I've been there. Repairs don't care about timing and they definitely don't care about your budget. Regular homeowners insurance usually doesn't cover a lot of that day to day wear and tear, plumbing failures, H Vac breakdowns, electrical issues. You're often on your own for those. And what's frustrating is a lot of the time we're right in the middle of beginning to build that emergency fund that we need and we haven't done it yet. And so we don't have that built in protection. We don't have anywhere to go. And that's where homeserve comes in. It's like a subscription for your home. For as little as 499amonth they've got your back because repairs hit fast and hard. You could be searching for a contractor in a panic or you could already be on the phone with HomeServe's 24. 7 hotline scheduling the repair. It's super simple. You choose the plan for your needs and for your budget and for the piece of your emergency fund you still don't have. And when something on your plan goes wrong, you just call their 24.7hotline and you start the repair process. What I love is that they have 4.5 million customers and a 4.8 out of 5 post repair rating and an A plus Better Business Bureau rating. This is the real deal. Getting your home repaired is not an option. Having protection in place is something I will always endorse. And having a company with the background of HomeServe in your corner, well that is a hundred percent what I'd use. Help protect your home system and your wallet with HomeServe against covered repairs. Play and start at just 4.99amonth. Go to HomeServe.com to find the plan that's right for you. That's HomeServe.com not available everywhere. Most plans range between 49911 99amonth. Your first year terms apply. Uncovered repairs. See HomeSurf.com for details.

[Joe]

Hello darlings. And now it's time for your favorite part of the show. Our Stacking Benjamin's Headlines Wanted to get

[OG]

your take on this headline, guys, because when I see that one of the biggest names in personal finance changes her mind about something. Of course that is headline worthy. Mark Guberti wrote [e-mail] he writes susie Orman is regular to share tough love financial advice. Yelling at people is tough love. Anyway, the focus is on avoiding debt, spending less than you earn, and working until you turn 70. She's held firm to much of the financial advice and propelled her career in the 90s. But she seems to have softened her stance on this need to work until 70. So she has, number one, said working till 70 might not be great anymore. She previously advocated for not retiring before 70 so you could maximize Social Security because you get the extra income that allows your savings to grow and you don't have to tap retirement accounts. And of course you're delaying Social Security. It's interesting. OG, I want to start with you because we did this headline a few weeks ago that people tend to think of retiring and taking Social Security in the same breath like I do the two things concurrently, right? So she's saying maybe I don't work till 70 and not as important As I used to think it was.

[Joe]

To be clear, how old is Susie now? Like when she was saying it 20 years ago, she's like, yeah, you can work till 70 now. She's like, what? Closing in on 70?

[Doug]

And she's like 74 now.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah.

[Joe]

She's like, this sucks. Like, working to 70 was awful.

[Doug]

I held out as long as I could, right?

[OG]

You see these people that are experts and then they get to that age and they're like, oh, wait a minute, here's.

[Joe]

Well, I mean, the math isn't wrong, right? Like, the impact of a working an extra year isn't just working an extra year. It's another year of saving. It's another year of compounding the money that you have saved and it's a year fewer of withdrawing from your portfolio. So it's like a double, triple, quadruple whammy of if you can have one more year, you know, that has a pretty profound impact. And you could argue this all the way till, you know, age a hundred, right? It's like you don't need as much money to retire if you work till you're 87. It's like, well, true. Absolutely. Also, you're working till you're 87. My grandfather worked till he was 92. He was a business owner and work for him wasn't, you know, he wasn't strenuous hanging on a roof, you know, putting out shingles. He was, you know, he owned a business, but his work day was schmoozing with customers. It wasn't, you know, lifting heavy boxes of paper like it used to be. The definition of work, I think, is also kind of critical here. And I think a lot of people will think like, work, get up, get dressed, go to the job, get home at 5 o', clock, have supper with the family type of thing. And Len's a great example of this. Len, you're retired from your corporate job, but I bet that you still would say that you do some work, right? You still have your writing and occasional media appearances on the Stacking Benjamin show that you have to attend.

[Len Penzo]

Very lucrative.

[Joe]

Fully paid, of course, in IOUs, mind you, but they're redeemable in the future. You're going to want to hang on to.

[OG]

These are going to be someday, Len.

[Len Penzo]

Someday, one of these days we pay

[Joe]

in Stacking Benjamin's coin. Someday you're going to be happy you've got these.

[OG]

Yeah. She now says that you don't need to work until 70. If you have savings and income sources, go ahead and tap those early which is something she used to say don't do.

[Joe]

As long as you got $5 million, you're good.

[Doug]

Yeah, right.

[OG]

Tap that asset 401ks IRA. She calls it a bridge strategy so that you can still do the thing that she recommends and OG that you recommend, which is still hold off on tapping that Social Security until later. But I'm curious, Len, you've seen the other side of this too, right? I mean, nobody knows how long they're going to live. What's your plan for Social Security? Are you going to use this, this weight strategy like OG talks about? Or when you get to 62, man, are you going to crank it up?

[Len Penzo]

Well, first thing I'm going to say is it's always crazy when somebody gives something with retirement and Social Security a one size fits all answer. We're all different. We all have different goals and financial situations. So I don't think there's a one size fits all answer. First off for me, first thing I will say is when you're doing your retirement goals and you're younger and you're doing your retirement planning, try not to include Social Security at all as part of your retirement income. Set your goal based without using that number. Because if you can hit that number, anything you earn in Social Security, whether you take it early or late, will be bonus. It's just gravy and it makes your life a lot easier. For hitting that. I call it a stretch goal. I am holding off until 70.

[OG]

Okay.

[Len Penzo]

I'm just going to wait. I'm going to maximize it, get as big a number as I can get. And that's because when I retired, I had hit my goal, I'd hit my retirement savings goal. And I just, I have the ability to do that, so why not? Why not wait? I know a lot of people will say, well, take the money early, you know, to take it. Yeah, you know, I, I'm willing to wait. I want that bigger number, I'm afraid I'd just like to have the bigger number for Social Security when we get there.

[OG]

There's a big time tiktoker on the other side, Len, who says the math is the math. But listen, you don't know how long you're going to be here, so take it as soon as you can. Just realize it's going to be less and just put that money in your pocket right now.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, well, so we've all run the numbers. If I wait to 70, my payback period is 14 and a half years. I would have to live 14 and a half years. If I start taking that money at 70 to get everything I would have got if I've started taking the money

[OG]

at 62, basically you're betting on living to 85.

[Len Penzo]

I'm betting on living dated and if I don't, well, I've lost, I made the wrong decision. But what if I live to 90 or what if I live to, you know, then I'm better off, Right?

[Joe]

Well, the other side of it lens that I think is also important on the Social Security side is for most people it's not just about you because in a lot of families there's two people, a couple and maybe your spouse doesn't have as high earnings as you and so their Social Security benefits a little bit less. Whoever dies first gets the bigger number. So if you predecease your spouse and she had a lower income history than you throughout your lifetime, she'll also get to keep that higher number.

[Len Penzo]

Correct.

[Joe]

So even if you do kick off at 83 and people go oh see it didn't work out, it's like, well but now my wife gets this higher number that she would have got a lower number on, you know, so that's

[Len Penzo]

a little bit of a factor that's extremely important. If your wife is for example a stay at home mom who hasn't been building up those Social Security dollars that Credits. Yeah, your credits. So that really helps somebody like the honeybee for my wife who she's going to be entitled to half of what I'm earning, what I eventually claim. So yes, that's. That is a fantastic point. I'll bring one other point up is some you where you don't know. My mother in law was diagnosed with stage four cancer way back in, I think it was 2004, 2003. Right around that time was the time she had to make her decision am I going to take Social Security or am I going to try and continue working to 70? And she decided, well I'm going to try and work but I'm going to take Social Security now because I have stage four cancer. Well, guess what? She lived another 16 years beyond. 17 years beyond that. There was a point there near the end, it was like well you could have waited to seven, but you don't know. It's just, there's just so many unknowns out there that it's tough. Yeah.

[OG]

I don't think you're unhappy in that situation.

[Len Penzo]

No, you're not.

[OG]

I don't think you're sitting back, if only I died.

[Len Penzo]

Exactly. But it's just sometimes you Think you're making the right decision and it ends up being hindsight's 20 20, as they say.

[OG]

Yeah, that's true. We don't know the plan. I mean, if the plan was right. Which is why og you talk so often about, you know, we solve for optimization, but we should be solving for flexibility. We should give ourselves the ability to roll with the punches more. Susie has three things that they talk about in this piece. Her quote, new retirement rules. I don't know that any of these are new, but I think it's a fun headline and I think we can focus on these three things. The first one is, number one, focus on retirement readiness. She says you should stress test your retirement plan so you know that you're financially ready to retire. So Len, you think about stress testing because as an engineer you would stress test stuff. How do you think about stress testing your financial plan before you actually submit your paperwork to retire?

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, I think it's a fantastic idea. Try and see what you get away with without the Social Security on your plan.

[OG]

So that's a stress test right there. By saying, hey, can I do it without Social Security is a stress test.

[Len Penzo]

That's the ultimate stress test. Yeah. And see how long you can hold out without Social Security. You know, I saw somebody, I saw a blogger. I was reading a piece, he retired early. I went back and I was looking at one of his old posts from 2016, 2017, and he had been planning for blogging income of 40 to 50,000 a year starting current from 2016 on. Well, we all know how us bloggers know that things have changed from the

[Joe]

blogging 10x that right?

[Len Penzo]

Yeah.

[OG]

Oh yeah, right. Minus 10x.

[Len Penzo]

Those days are gone. And he was even. And I read a current article from him where he sent his blog. Income now this is 2025, had dropped to under $3,000 a year. So in 2016, he was planning on $40,000 of income today. Today. And he's not getting that. He's getting, you know, 5% of that. When you're doing that stress testing, it's very important that those kind of stresses, those, those tests kind of let you know you should be doing that. It's like, well, what if I don't have this income? What if I don't have that income? And try that again. You don't know. There's no sure things. So the stress tests are very important. Yeah.

[OG]

I've made it no secret that I love doing this. I can't imagine what I'd do. So I'm going to Continue doing this. But there's no stacking Benjamin's income in the financial plan. I mean, looking at where we're at right now, OG if I could 10x this, I still got big, healthy, zero.

[Joe]

It's still zero.

[OG]

Yeah, that's fantastic.

[Joe]

The way that I think about this is in terms of retirement income or cash flow or whatever you want to say is you want to establish some sort of upper bound limit and some lower bound limit of where do I have to make some changes? You know, a lot of times people are familiar with this concept of Monte Carlo simulation. Like, oh, I did a Monte Carlo and I got an 80%. That means I'm 80% successful. No, that's not what that means. What Monte Carlo means with 80% is that in 800 of the thousand times you didn't have to make any changes to your plan based on what you said. The other 20 don't mean you're at zero. It means, hey, I'm going to have to make a change. Well, like Len's been saying this whole time, life is a series of changes. Whether it's a healthcare issue, whether it's a really cool opportunity, whether it's, you know, you need to move because of family or you choose to be. You know, there's all sorts of things that can happen in your life, whether it's before or during or throughout retirement that are going to make changes to your plan. And the idea is, where can I make these changes without affecting the plan and when do I have to reevaluate what I'm doing? And so if you have an idea of like, take this income for example, of 40k for the blogger, it's like, okay, if I've got this 40k, I've got my assets, I got this 40k. Life is good. If my income drops to 10, I need to make a change to the plan. Anything between 10 and 40, I can run the plan assuming that everything else goes the way that I project. The same thing also happens on the upside. We spend a lot of time thinking about the downside. The last 10 years of upside in terms of the stock market have also changed people's plans. I think for the better in the sense of net worth and assets, but for the worse in terms of outcomes. When you look at people who 10 years ago retired and said, I expect to get 7% in my portfolio, meanwhile they've been averaging 14 or 15, yet they're still living their life like 7%. And so now they have so much access in their plan, I haven't considered it. They haven't considered what to do about it and haven't considered all the opportunity that they're leaving on the table that the last 10 years from 60 to 70, let's say where I could have done the cruise or I could have helped my, you know, church with the thing that we were trying to raise money for or whatever. Because it's like, well no, here's the plan. The plan says I take 4%. It's like, well yeah, it says 4% but if you're slaying it because you make extra blog income or because you know your portfolio did better than you think or because you spent less than you imagined, like what are we doing? Like just accumulating money for the sake of accumulating it. Like that's fun too. But let's party a little.

[OG]

Well, if there's more that people want to do, I don't know that just going out and blowing cash is.

[Joe]

I'm not saying blowing it. I'm saying like, you know, the person who goes, I can't take my kids to Disney.

[OG]

Yeah. The bucket, the bucket list. Stuff that goes by the wayside because you don't think you can afford it.

[Joe]

Yeah. And meanwhile I die at 87 with 7 million in the bank. And it's like grandpa was a,

[Doug]

it's

[Joe]

like could have done this stuff.

[Len Penzo]

The kids appreciate it.

[Joe]

Talking about.

[OG]

And it's funny that you bring that up because on the very least, if you're not going to spend it, you know, celebrating some of that wealth while you're alive, I remember telling my clients to give it away while you're alive so you can see people enjoy it.

[Joe]

Absolutely.

[OG]

You know, why wait until you're gone?

[Len Penzo]

When I had a buddy at work, his father in law was, he's in his mid-80s and he took their extended family a whole bunch. He rented this giant mansion up off of on Maui. I think it was right on the ocean, just this spectacular home. And I think he spent like 40, 45,000 bucks for a few, for a couple weeks and he brought his whole family over and let them enjoy it. I mean that's one way to do it.

[Joe]

Yeah. With $2 million in your brokerage account, that's one year of dividend payments, right?

[Len Penzo]

Yeah. And when you're in your mid-80s, it's like, you know what?

[Joe]

Yeah, it's a lot of money in the absolute. I think everybody here would go, okay, 40 grand for vacation is a just a crap.

[Len Penzo]

And it's memories too. He's creating memories for the rest of the family for himself. So it's great.

[Doug]

Joe looks puzzled, like, no, that just sounds like a vacation.

[Joe]

I know. 40 grand. Have you, have you guys ever done the Danube cruise? What are you talking about?

[Doug]

Try again, pick a different number.

[Joe]

OG the Christmas markets backed up against a trip to Greece. I mean, yeah, if you're just counting

[Doug]

airfare, it's, you need an entry level vacation, I guess.

[OG]

Do you know how much that glue vine you can drink with 40 grand? That's incredible. The other things I think that when we talk about stress testing, OG I think one that nobody would have thought of three years ago, four years ago was inflation, right? And now I think stress testing. What if inflation's 5? What if inflation goes up? Stress test that stress test lower returns on your portfolio. What if I not only don't get 14, what if I get 6 instead of 7?

[Joe]

All of those things are stuff that you have to play with a little bit. The downside of this is you could run into a little bit of analysis paralysis. A little bit here of I've done all these stress tests and it's like if I toggle all these buttons on my retirement tanks, it's like, well, but what's the likelihood of all of those things happening all at the same time? And so you have to be a little careful and little tube sky is falling and I don't put a lot of energy into the analysts say that the next 10 years of market returns are going to be less than the average market returns. Like, well, I mean, maybe it is or maybe it's not. But we, we're kind of butting up against about a hundred years worth of bunch of crazy stuff that's happened in this, in this world. We got a lot of data about what happens to stocks over that period of time. So I feel pretty good with forecasting the next a hundred years based on the last hundred. The sequence of that could matter. But if you have enough margin or if you have enough safety and you have some flexibility built in your plan, you should be okay.

[Len Penzo]

That's why it's important when you're doing these stress tests. Put the stresses in and, and the good things too in buckets. High risk, low risk, medium risk. And that kind of helps you decide. Well, yeah, this stress here is very expensive, but it's, it's, or I should say probability. High probability, low probability, medium probability. Yeah, not risk. But that will help you say, well, yeah, that's going to be expensive. But the probability of that happening is very low. So you can Kind of discount it. So do that for both your, your good things in retirement that could happen and the bad things and makes your job a little easier.

[OG]

The second thing on this list is having liquidity. And I find this an interesting quote, new retirement piece OG Because I don't know, we've been beating this drum for a long time. There's this emphasis that you have access to cash. And especially if you're going to retire early, not having all these hoops you have to jump through to get at your money that's in, in these over optimized places. You know, don't have the tail, wag the dog.

[Joe]

If your investments are in real illiquid things, and I mean like property, private equity stuff that have. Literally you can't withdraw the money, right? You call the fund manager and you go, I need 10,000. They say, you cannot have it today. Like that's illiquid. But everything else, your regular brokerage account, your Roth IRA, your IRA, your 401k, assuming it's invested in ETFs, mutual funds, whatever stock that's pure, that's 100% liquid. So I don't buy this liquidity thing. She probably means cash.

[OG]

She does. She actually specifically means cash.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah.

[Joe]

I think you have to layer out like your cash flow needs because getting to retirement and saying like all of a sudden, well, now I need to have five years worth of cash on hand. Like, well, why, like a year? Sure. Two years. Okay, fine. Do you need 10? Probably not. You know what I mean? There's a balancing act of return. Just think about these different buckets of. Len was talking about different buckets of probability and magnitude of outcome. The same thing is true with your money. It's like, okay, I need some money that I can pay the bills with tomorrow and I need some money for the expenses that I have coming around the corner. But you can play that game forever, right? You say, well, what about my property taxes that are due in 2045? Shouldn't I have that set aside? It's like, yeah, or you could just have a third of it set aside and keep it in your brokerage account and it'll double twice and you'll be fine. You can't always have it sitting in cash because then you run into some efficiency things. So be careful with the liquidity trap of like, I have to be liquid. And I also don't buy this. I retire early, I can't get to my money. Yes, you can. You just have to be retired. You just can't get to your Retirement,

[Len Penzo]

how many things do you need where they, you need a huge sum of money within two days. How, how often is that? It's almost never, I would say.

[Joe]

Almost never, right? Like, well, what if the roof blows off, okay? The roofer guy doesn't show up with a bucket and go like, fill this bucket up with cash, then I'll fix your roof, they do it and send you an invoice. Right?

[Doug]

I mean, sure.

[OG]

I'm still going to play the other side of this though, OG which is that I, I prefer to just build the brokerage account on the side, then spend my days worrying about the mega backdoor Roth IRA to every degree that I can possibly do that. You know, making sure that my tax shelter optimization, the big financial geek argument right now that is now turning around, going, well, I don't think the Roth IRA is the way to go. It's the pretext that you want, like have some of each.

[Joe]

Well, no 100%. That's what I mean. Like if you get to retirement and you have, I mean you just look at it like in an obscene way, right? If all you had was pre tax 401k money and you were 40 years old and you had 50 million in the bank, 50 million in your 401k, it's all pre tax. Can you retire? Can you legally retire? Is it liquid? Of course it is. Like there's 150,000 ways to get money out of that account. It's not overly complicated. And I think that supports your point, Joe, is you don't have to be so religious about like exactly. Every single penny has to be exactly right. Because money is money, right? If you have enough, you're good.

[Len Penzo]

I'll give a one. Real quick story of a. I had to withdraw money from an IRA for the first time. One of my IRAs, January start of the year. So on January 2nd, I put in the request to withdraw an amount of cash and put it into our bank. Well, I had to set up the transfer mechanism. Long story short, what I thought was going to take five days, there was problems between the IRA custodian and my bank. I wasn't able to access that money until the very end of January. That's a one time issue. But. And it took almost 30 days. But that's the worst it would ever be.

[OG]

Well, what's interesting about that too, Len, was that that was probably because you hadn't set that up.

[Len Penzo]

That's correct, that's correct. Which was a mistake on my part. I should have set that up a long time ago. Not right before I needed the money.

[OG]

But still, now that you got that bump smoothed out, the next time you press a button and correct.

[Joe]

And did you run your checking account to exactly zero on January 3? Were you stressed about it? No.

[Len Penzo]

No.

[Joe]

Did you still have an AMEX card that said, oh, yeah, you just charge, you know, just pass in February. It's cool. And I think what you're saying is the worst case scenario was it took me almost 30 days and it was

[Len Penzo]

still nothing and it'll never happen again. That's a lesson learned on my part.

[OG]

The third in this quote, new retirement, which is, as we're discussing, not so new, but incredibly relevant. I want to pause and wait on until after Doug's trivia for the second half of the show. I think we can really talk about this.

[Joe]

Such a tease.

[OG]

It also ties into our Tik Tok minute this week. But first, speaking of tie in, Doug's going to tie in some financial trivia to today's show.

[Doug]

Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and by this point in our friendship, you probably know what a huge reader I am. In fact, I just finished a scientific book about anti gravity. I couldn't put it down. That was for you, Len. Well, I bring it up only because on today's date, way back in 1455, Johannes Gutenberg listened to his mother, finally got off his lazy butt and printed a book. Oh, that's not how it happened. It was actually a big deal. I mean, what makes history these days? Am I right? Anywho, here's today's question. This Gutenberg dude was backed by investors to crank out copies of what book? I'll be back right after I go ask Joe's mom if I can read a different book. This Anti Gravity book doesn't have any pictures in it.

[OG]

Boring.

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[Doug]

mic drop.

[Len Penzo]

You ready?

[Joe]

Let's do it.

[Doug]

Hosted by former Navy SEAL Mike Ridland.

[OG]

It's unfiltered. You know, when you go to the sound of the gun, bam, you're gone.

[Doug]

It's weird.

[OG]

I mean, I've had so many near death experiences, it's raw. I love this country.

[Doug]

I offered my life to serve this nation and protect its people.

[OG]

Question, you know, what's the meaning of life? And to me it just boils down to one single word, which is purpose.

[Doug]

My drop, follow and listen on your favorite platform. Hey there, stackers. I'm big time reader and guy still waiting like you for the next Game of Thrones tome, Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. Okay, let's set the record straight. I heard a few of you snicker when I said I was a big reader at first. It's not nice. But Also B, I'm 100% the best reader you've ever met. Though it is true that my favorite book is the checkbook because man, is it fun to turn words into cash. Am I right on today's date? Way back during some other era, a guy named Gutenberg bragged that he could print out some books making movable type. But what book was it? Gutenberg was backed by investors who really wanted to make sure they got a decent ROI and they insisted he print the most read book. So he cranked him out to make sure his checkbook was full. Gutenberg's book was the Bible. And now two guys who are a revelation. For your money, it's Joe and OG and oh yeah, Lynn's here too.

[OG]

Guys, that surprised me when I found out that Gutenberg's printing out the Bible not because of religious affiliation, but because of the fact that these investors, right, are breathing down my neck. And I got to make sure we sell a few.

[Doug]

It's a story as old as time.

[OG]

It is a story as old as time. What's going on behind the scenes? Let's do a tick tock minute. This tick tock minute ties into exactly what we're talking about. This was sent in to us by a stacker named Bill. And by the way, the tick tocker's Name is also Bill. So, Bill, thank you for this. And I'm assuming this isn't Bill who sent it in? Len, I've been saving this for the last couple weeks because we knew you were coming on. And it really goes with Susie's third point here, but also the fact that you're a new retiree and, well, this tiktoker Bill's a new retiree. Let's listen to what Bill thinks about his first couple years of retirement.

[Bill (TikToker)]

If you've been watching my videos from the beginning of my retirement, you've seen me kind of struggle with, like, how I perceive the value of my time in retirement. And it started with, I need to be doing meaningful, valuable things with my time. And then I got past that and I was like, it doesn't matter how I spend my time, but I want to spend it. I don't want to save it, I don't want to maximize it. I want to spend my time. And recently it occurred to me I was trying to figure out, like, why is it that I don't care if I spend two hours changing my oil? Like, do I think my time's worthless? And I realized, I want to say that I really see my time more as priceless, but that's kind of a cheesy way to look at it. But it's the closest I can come because if someone offered me, you know, some amount of money for my time, I wouldn't take it unless it was something that I already would be doing for fun. So I've realized that I can't put a value on my time.

[OG]

I love this idea. He continues for another couple minutes. But it really is on the same basic idea, Len, that once he got to retirement, well, you heard him. What do you think about what he's saying about the value of his time? Did you see a change in the way that you see time the first couple years of retirement?

[Len Penzo]

Oh, well, it's just as you get older, you look at time differently. You know, it's when you're younger, you have all the time in the world. You get older, you don't. You have a diminishing number of years left, and that becomes more obvious the older you get. And so time is. He might say it's cheesy, but it's true. You realize more and more that time is priceless and it's the most precious thing you do have.

[OG]

But he also doesn't want to maximize.

[Len Penzo]

I don't worry about it.

[OG]

Yeah, he doesn't want to maximize it, though. I found that interesting, because when you say that this time is priceless and I don't have that much left, people that are younger than you listening might go, well, wait a minute. Then you got to maximize, Len, every minute then, don't you?

[Len Penzo]

Well, no, I. You know what? There's leisure, and just existing has its value, too. You know, hanging around and doing whatever you're doing. I know time is priceless for me, how I look at it, but I do what I want to do. I don't look at it like, oh, you know, I've got to do this, or I've got to maximize every minute. No, I don't look at it that way. I just. I don't know. It's weird. You just look at it and I don't want to waste time. But how do you. Wait, what is wasting time? The only wasting time to me is just doing things you don't want to do. You're stuck doing things you don't want to do. And that might. For me, it was working at my corporate job after a while, to me, that was wasting time. That to me was important to not do. But how I fill that time, I don't worry about.

[OG]

He goes in later in this video to talking about, you know, his earlier thing about changing the oil, and he's like, other people change my oil. Wrong. I enjoy changing my oil. I think it's great. And I don't want it redone. And so for me, that's a fun use of time.

[Len Penzo]

Absolutely. Absolutely. To me, it's more important doing things. Don't get stuck doing things you don't want to do, especially as you get older, because then you are wasting those precious minutes. But as to how to properly fill it. Yeah, oil change or whatever, if you know, that's. That's great.

[OG]

There's this concept, though, that he struggled with it.

[Len Penzo]

Right.

[OG]

For the first couple of years. I know researcher Ken Dykewald talks a lot about. This is about. For the average person, about 18 months into your retirement, sometimes up to three years later, you suffer this real depression. Like, is this it? There's this euphoria initially, and then there's this existential crisis. Have you found whether it's existential crisis or not? But this idea that Bill in the video talks about of struggling with, quote, best use of time.

[Len Penzo]

No, I. You know what? One of the things I did before I retired was figuring out, do I have enough things in my life that will keep my time occupied, will keep me occupied doing things. I've got so many things I want to do. And I've been like, I've been trying to. One of the things I've been really working on lately is, is I want. One of my goals is to learn a new language or get better at the language. So I've been working very hard on my Spanish last four or five months. So I have so many things. My model railroad, my learning this language. I've got projects that I constantly do. My life is so full of things. I don't worry about that at all. It's just there's so much to do, you know, so. But I know people who retire and then they, they come back to work in six months because they're bored to tears.

[OG]

Well, and I wonder, og, if it truly is that they're bored or that they just haven't created a new identity like Len has. You know, I was reading a Wall Street Journal column last week where this gentleman used to work at the Journal, and he called the lack of work, quote, a vacuum. He goes, there was this whole place where my identity used to be and now there's a vacuum in that spot, which I think, oh, gee, can really hit some people pretty hard in retirement.

[Joe]

I mean, if you have the opportunity to do play testing any of this, you know, like, Glenn was talking about whether it's like you can take a period of time if you have the two week vacation and say, like, all right, we're going to treat this like it's retirement time. Like, what is. What's going to happen if you have the opportunity to do a sabbatical model out what your day is going to look like? Because, you know, let's see, you guys have all seen no country for Old Men movie.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Joe]

The very end of the movie, he is retiring. Like, this was his, you know, he's just worn out, right? And he's sitting at home. It's the last scene of the whole movie. He's sitting at home and he's eating breakfast. His wife's like, so what are you

[Len Penzo]

going to do today?

[Joe]

He's like, well, I thought I might do this. She goes, okay, well, I've got to do this. He goes, well, maybe I'll stay and hang out with you. And she just kind of snickers and she's like, just because you're retired doesn't mean I am. I got stuff to do.

[Len Penzo]

Still.

[Joe]

I think especially if you're in a relationship and you've got somebody else around, that may be a new thing. You just being around is like a whole new, like, what are you doing? Don't you have a place to go? Why are you here right now? It's lunchtime. This is when I do my thing. Like, you've had 30 years of this rhythm and now you're going to stop getting up at six in the morning and now start getting up at eight and you're going to have lunch at home instead of at the office. And it's like this whole new thing that you have to get used to. So you should expect, I think, just like the author in the Wall Street Journal article. I read the same thing. You should expect it to be chaos for a while. I mean, you go through those different things we're tiptoeing our feet into. Here's what it's like to have only two kids at home instead of three. And then when Alex comes home from college, it's like, why is it so loud here? What is happening? Where did all our food go? Like, we just bought milk, for God's sake. How's it going? And it's like we have another adult at home. And then he goes away and it's like, oh, it's quiet.

[OG]

Oh, geez. Like, where'd all my Woodford go?

[Joe]

That's the one thing about this generation. They. They are not drinkers.

[Doug]

They don't drink.

[OG]

Not doing it.

[Joe]

My middle kid asked me if beer had carbonation in it.

[OG]

Oh, really?

[Joe]

I didn't know if that was like just. He was just putting me on. Yeah, like, this will really pull down.

[OG]

Dad, does beer sit bubbly?

[Joe]

But he was just like, it does. Oh, I'll never drink.

[OG]

I remember coming home from college OG and having a beer with my dad and it was a hot day, you know, I was home just from the Citadel for the summer. And I remember I just pounded that beer in front of my dad at

[Joe]

a like National Lampoon's Vacation where he like, has the beer in the.

[OG]

Rusty.

[Joe]

In the desert. Rusty like, pulls it back and he's like, yes.

[OG]

It was one of those moments that I remember my dad looking at me the way Chevy Chase looked at Rusty on that video, like, what? What?

[Joe]

Well done, sir. Well done.

[OG]

Oh, no, no, no. Was not at all well done. It was like.

[Joe]

It wasn't a proud dad moment.

[OG]

It was not a proud dad moment. It was like, what the hell's he doing in college moment.

[Joe]

It was the. The modern family taking the daughter out for her 21st birthday. And they get a shot of tequila and they're like, hey, happy birthday. She like throws it back and everybody looks at her and she goes, oh, it Burns.

[OG]

Doug, did you have a comment on this?

[Doug]

Yeah. You know, I struggle with this whole. We've been talking about this for years and I've always. It hasn't sat well with me, this whole figure out what your purpose is before you retire. You have to retire to something. Don't run away from something. And I think for me it comes down to this. And I hate to get to Hallmark Cardi, but if you aren't happy with what you have, you're not going to be happy with what you get. So if you're a person who is needing your current work to fulfill some purpose or hole in your life. Yeah. You better figure out some other major thing to be your raison d' when you retire.

[Joe]

English, please.

[Doug]

Man, that is. Yeah. And I've been thinking along and hard about when do I get to use that one French phrase? I know. Besides soup du jour.

[Joe]

It's the soup of the day.

[OG]

Delicious.

[Doug]

Holy crap. That is such a. To me, that feels. It feels like such a. What's the right word? A trite kind of a purpose that Hollywood has made. Made for us that we have to have some grand life purpose.

[OG]

I don't think that's. I don't think that's the case.

[Doug]

Just be happy with what you have. It's possible to retire and be very, very content with your life and not necessarily have a thing that makes you get up at 6am every day and solve problems.

[Joe]

Don't need the rise and grind.

[Doug]

Yeah. It is so possible to be content and happy with what you have and what you've already built out of your life without having some major second or third chapter.

[OG]

It is interesting to see what the research says on that and then to get Doug's take because the research suggests.

[Doug]

You jerk.

[Joe]

Shot fired. Backhanded.

[Doug]

I'm just telling you Doug's wrong.

[OG]

I have, over the past three years, really dug into this and the research says something completely different. So it's fine that it doesn't sit well with you because, listen, I think. I think that I'm.

[Joe]

That the researchers are only researching people that have a bias toward having this grand.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Len Penzo]

They didn't ask you, Doug. They didn't ask you at all.

[Doug]

And the research doesn't say 100% of the people need this. I just don't want people who.

[OG]

Research never says 100.

[Doug]

They don't have it.

[OG]

But you're trivial. Wait a minute, OG but part of the thing, Doug, is that you're trivializing a big piece of what is really important that people are solving for incorrectly, you're saying be happy. Right. I think. And, and this came through. We had Benjamin Brandt on the show and he was talking about kind of Len singing off the same song sheet you and OG were singing off earlier, which is even bad data is good data, like finding out stuff that you don't like ahead of time before you get to retirement is great data. It's not a failed trip when you go to Florida to investigate the retirement community think you like and it sucks. That's phenomenal data and it's not a waste of time. So figuring out what makes you happy. I think there's a huge portion of America and maybe of the world that that waits to age 65 to figure out what makes me happy.

[Doug]

But if you're not happy in Wisconsin, or it may be more accurately if you're not happy in Ohio, you're not going to be happy in Arizona or Florida or anywhere else. So I'm just saying let's not put pressure on ourselves to find some externality to find some thing to do, some place to be that's going to make us happy. Don't put that pressure on yourself in retirement.

[OG]

No, but that's 100%. The point that Bill brings up here is you've got this optimization that we're all searching for and Bill says that ain't it. I mean, that's exactly. I think, Len, what you're talking about too.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, that is what I'm talking about. To me, it's not wasting time. So anything that when you're not wasting time as you get older is, is great. So if you're sitting there and doing whatever you're doing, you don't think you're wasting your time and you're enjoying what you're doing, you're successful in retirement. The key is a lot of people don't know what they aren't going to like a hundred percent not going to satisfy them in retirement. Like golf, for example. I used to love golf. It fell out of favor with me in the last few years. It's just something that I didn't lose. So if I was thinking of golf filling a hole in my retirement life, that's gone, that peg that would fill that hole in my retirement is no longer working.

[Joe]

After playing golf with Doug several times, I would have thought that that would have fallen out of favor for him too. But he still go to that. Well, he's. He just loves the beating.

[Doug]

Man, I am taking a whooping today.

[OG]

I think this is why Doc G calls it Little P Purpose, you know, not the big P purpose. Well, I think, Doug, part of your. This doesn't sit well with me is the fact that you're taking all this body of research and. And kind of trivializing it because maybe you've already solved for that. But I'll tell you, the research suggests a lot of people haven't done that. A lot of people haven't thought about it that way. They're too busy thinking about the money. They're too busy thinking about, I'm gonna have these unicorns and effing rainbows when I get there. And, you know, you still show up, so start learning what. What your little P. Purpose is. So Susie's last piece on here is to find peace of mind, which is, I think, really where this video goes. And, Lynn, I was very interested to get your take there. So that resonated with you.

[Len Penzo]

It resonated.

[OG]

I'll link to all these on our show Notes pages stacking benjamin.com. doug, let's go to you, man in the back porch. What is going on in this stacking Benjamin's community? It's crazy.

[Doug]

Joe, I want to put a little bit more highlight and focus, a spotlight, as it were, on the articulate Apricot who chose to have a little celebration with all the rest of the basement dwellers.

[OG]

Apricot.

[Doug]

Couple of weeks ago.

[OG]

Kind of like apricots, Apricot, apricots. How's he an apricot?

[Doug]

I don't know. I mean, he's owning this. I don't know if this is a handle that Facebook gave him, but he's the articulate Apricot.

[OG]

This was his handle. I thought you were calling him an articulate Africa. I want to focus on this articulate Apricot who I'm friends with in the basement.

[Len Penzo]

I know, the cunning kumquat.

[Doug]

He just had one of those, holy cow, check this out. And he decided to share it with the rest of the basement when he or she don't know. I don't know if there's a gender for an Apricot. Noticed that today they were a millionaire.

[OG]

Like, that's great.

[Doug]

This thing. This thing happened. And he posted a little screenshot of their net worth at just over a million dollars. And I just think that that's great to celebrate the wins with the basement. That's pretty fun. So congratulations, Apricot.

[OG]

Well, and that's not the kind of win that you can share, like, with your friends at lunch, you know what I mean? But, hey, guess what happened to me today. I got to a seven figure net worth. Like, it just, it isn't gonna go into work. Yeah, right.

[Doug]

It doesn't usually, but when you're hiding behind this dark, mysterious moniker of the articulate apricot, you can say whatever the hell you want.

[OG]

Well, and I also think, though, being in a community, that's a community, like the stacker community, I mean, that's what everybody's trying to do, so it's fantastic. Len, do you remember the day that you got to seven figures?

[Len Penzo]

I'm still trying to get there, Joe.

[OG]

He's still, He's. He's at 4. He's like, once I get past 4,

[Joe]

nearing it any day now.

[OG]

That's what we call Coast Phi at the Penzo House. Guess what? We can take out $12 a month for the rest of our life. You do remember.

[Len Penzo]

Oh, you're still waiting for more. I was.

[OG]

I thought you were good.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah. Yes, I do remember. Yeah, it is great. It's fantastic. And unfortunately for me, it was like, well, that's good, but it's not going to be enough, so you got to keep going. And that's the biggest realization. And a million's a great number. That's fantastic. But I, at least for me, that I was like, nope, I got a long ways to go if I want to get to where I want to be. Congratulations, by the way. That's fantastic.

[OG]

It is so fantastic. What were some of the comments, Doug?

[Doug]

Well, lots of congratulations, as you might expect. And in fact, Jamie said financial milestones can be hard to celebrate with family and friends, since most of us don't discuss, you know, don't discuss it respectfully. But I'm here to say huge congrats. Way to go. Hope you do a little something for yourself to celebrate. And yeah, you're right, Joe, it's weird. You can, you can discuss that with strangers more easily than you can with friends and family because it just somehow comes off wrong because of the stigma attached to it.

[OG]

Are there other things in your life where you can discuss it more with strangers than with friends? Besides money rashes.

[Doug]

Certain rashes in certain locations on your body. That's fun to do on Reddit.

[Len Penzo]

You guys know that. I thought I read somewhere that only like 2% or 1% of Americans even have. Have a net worth of a million dollars. I mean, that it's really is a excellent milestone to reach. So it's. You're in rarefied air for sure. Absolutely.

[OG]

Oh, oh, gee. You might know that number offhand. Do you know that percentage of people

[Joe]

with My friend, Chat GPT will.

[OG]

Ah, Chat GPT is going to say what an excellent question. I've never had a better question. You're brilliant for asking this.

[Len Penzo]

I'm pretty sure I read is 2% or 1.

[Doug]

I can tell you that approximately 70% of Americans have a positive net worth. So at least a dollar positive net worth. 12%. 12% have a net worth over a million dollars. According to a 2022 survey by the Federal Reserve.

[Joe]

Excluding primary residents is the two to two and a half percent that you said.

[OG]

Okay. There you go.

[Len Penzo]

Okay. That's it. Okay.

[OG]

Yeah. Well, congratulations. That is a big thing and I love that we're able to pause and help you celebrate that. What is it? Delicious. Apricot, Intelligent?

[Doug]

Articulate. Joe.

[OG]

Articulate.

[Doug]

Articulate. Try it sometime.

[OG]

Something I am not apparently. Articulate. We are talking money all across the United States. I'm going to be in Seattle coming up the first weekend of March. I'm gonna be meeting up with our stacker community there to join our meetup group in Seattle, stacky benjamins.com bad which is our Benjamin's After Dark meetup group. We also have groups in Boston and the Twin Cities in Mankato and Tucson got together. Doug, you see that?

[Doug]

Finally dead. Yep. They had a great night at Topgolf and I'm sure there is more great stuff waiting for them. Maybe they'll go over to the Desert Museum. Greatest museum in the United States.

[OG]

Museum in the US that museum, the Desert Sonora Museum.

[Doug]

Yep, yep.

[Len Penzo]

That's.

[Doug]

That's top shelf stuff.

[OG]

That is my favorite museum. I'm not kidding.

[Doug]

No, I know it. It is. It's probably mine as well. It's the best blend of feeling like you're out in nature. But also it's a, you know, it's a little bit of a zoo. It's also a museum about the geology of the area. It's a little bit of everything. And it's just a gorgeous, gorgeous setting. It's the only thing better than the Henry Ford Greenfield Village in Detroit.

[OG]

Is that this weird hybrid between. Zoo Museum. Yeah. Super. Len, have you been there before?

[Len Penzo]

No, I haven't. I've been to Tucson, but I haven't been to the. The museum. I'll check it out.

[OG]

It's fantastic. But I can't wait to see Tucson, which you guys.

[Joe]

I haven't been there either, Joe.

[OG]

Oh gee. Have you been there?

[Joe]

I've been to Tucson. I haven't been to the zoo. I'll have to check it out.

[OG]

Well, I, I heard that recently from somebody else. Mr. Penzo, thanks for hanging out with us today, man.

[Len Penzo]

Oh, it's great to be back. Thank you for having me.

[OG]

Well, we are definitely going to be hearing a lot more from Mr. Penzo over the next few months, so can't wait for those appearances.

[Joe]

So don't get his keys back. Let him keep them.

[OG]

So I think we can let him keep the keys.

[Len Penzo]

Thank you.

[Joe]

Ah, we don't have to change the locks. Never mind. Cancel the locksmith.

[OG]

By the way, Len, I also saw some of our stackers buying your new book. Yeah.

[Len Penzo]

So thank you all for buying it. I appreciate it. It's True Money Stories. You can find it at Amazon.com true money stories.

[OG]

Put in Len Penzo and you get all kinds of crazy money stories that all start with, by the way, I can't believe this happened to me.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, right.

[OG]

This never happens to me.

[Len Penzo]

Never.

[OG]

All right, that's going to do it for today. Doug. You got it from here, man. What should we have learned on today's show?

[Doug]

What should we have learned today? First, take some advice from Susie Orman's new take and maybe our original one, solving for retirement. You don't need to accumulate big bucks or work forever, but you do need a plan and to strategize how your pile of assets and your government benefits will work together to create the best outcome. That's the key to winning. Second, investments, those are important, but your time, now, that's invaluable. And today's big lesson. I love today's trivia question about Gutenberg's bible. Hope you did too, but I wish he would have written a book about mountains because I find those to be cliffhangers. I'll. Yeah, I'll just show myself out. Thanks to the amazing Len Penzo for sharing his expertise with us today. You'll find Len's unique takes on life at his website, lenpenzo.com this show is the property of SP Podcast, LLC, Copyright 2026 and is created by Joe Salsihai. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. And oh yeah, before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm show's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time. Back here at the Stacking Benjamin show,

[OG]

You know what everybody's wondering? Do you spend your day tomorrow making the crazy squirrels do crazy things up behind the house? Is that. Is that how the pento spent?

[Len Penzo]

Well, let me. Let me. Since we're talking about the squirrels, and then here. Here's something we were talking, and I'll tie this in with our retirement discussion. One thing that I did not model in my retirement was all the money I'm spending on these damn squirrels and other animals in I've got. The wife feeds the squirrels. I bet you we spend 40 bucks a month on nuts for these squirrels. And she also does hummingbirds. So we have the hummingbird feeders, and we're going through £10 of sugar every. Every month. £10 is right now feeding the hummingbirds. So, yeah, that's a. That's an expense that I've had that I didn't ever plan for. So 50, 60 bucks for squirrels and hummingbirds. And then you got the dog who's. He's on these special plans now where they have these bark boxes and stuff where, you know, you don't just buy dog food for a dog anymore. You buy the toys in the box that comes every month. You subscribe, there's another 40 bucks.

[OG]

Oh, yeah, wait a minute. Hold on a second.

[Len Penzo]

So there's 100 bucks just for my dog, the hummingbirds, and the squirrels. Every month.

[OG]

There is a. There is a special dog toy subscription service.

[Len Penzo]

Yes, Dog toys with treats, too. It's like. There's a couple of companies. Chewy, I think, has one bark. I think the company's bark. So I think we get.

[Doug]

Bark box. Yeah, Bark box.

[Len Penzo]

So we're getting bark boxes. And let me tell you, it is. It's great. It's a great service if you can afford to do it. It's funny. The dog gets like, three toys or two toys every month. And then he gets some treats, bags of treats. And. And he looks forward to it. So the dog knows. He knows when the box comes, and he gets all excited for it. What a business model. Whoever thought of that? Because they've got a lot of this paying 30, 40 bucks a month.

[OG]

Well, yeah. I've known Doug for a long time. There's no way in hell Doug is doing a subscription with his dogs.

[Doug]

Nope, I'm not. We have two dogs. I've had two dogs for, like, almost 20 years now or something. And no, we're not. We're just. We've got regular subscription orders from Amazon. The dog dinos are inbound on the, on the weekly. And they shred them and Mrs. Neighbor just keeps on buying more. But I'm not doing a subscription service. No way in hell.

[OG]

Speaking of subscriptions, did your parents do subscriptions for you when you were kids? Did you have any subscriptions where stuff would come to the house when you were a kid?

[Joe]

My dad had a subscription when I was a kid, but I wasn't allowed to see it.

[OG]

It's a whole different thing.

[Len Penzo]

National Geographic. My parents got me National Geographic subscription.

[OG]

Well, I got Highlights magazine. Did you guys get Highlights?

[Len Penzo]

Yes, Highlights. Dude, that was a great magazine. I loved Highlights. Yes.

[OG]

I was so excited every month when Highlights would show up.

[Len Penzo]

So fun. So fun. They still have Highlights magazine. That was a great magazine.

[OG]

I saw a Highlights magazine at Target, but it wasn't the normal magazine. It was like one of those one off things, you know, like just what all your letters or numbers were. And it surprised me because I haven't seen Highlights in forever. But that was great. We got Ranger Rick. Did you get Ranger Rick?

[Len Penzo]

That was, Look, I was a nerd and even I didn't get Ranger Rick. That was. I didn't want to be cop with Ranger Rick.

[Doug]

We got National Geographic, Graphic World, which was for kids.

[OG]

For kids, right?

[Doug]

Yeah, it was basically Nat Geo for kids. But I got World magazine. I loved it. Loved that magazine. Joe, here's an answer to your question. Yes, Highlights magazine is still published. It has been in circulation since 1946.

[OG]

Yeah, 46.

[Len Penzo]

That's a great magazine for kids. Yes, great stuff.

[OG]

Well, and now we just taught you parents how to, how to spend money in so many different ways.

[Doug]

This all started with learning about how much Len spends on his nuts. And somehow we got out of kids magazines.

[OG]

I was just, I was curious when he went into subscriptions, but. Happy birthday, Mr. Penzo.

[Len Penzo]

Yes, and happy birthday to you, Mr. Joe.