The Case Against Early Retirement (SB1638)

Summary

The Stacking Benjamins Show – Episode: "The Case Against Early Retirement" (SB1638)
Release Date: January 31, 2025

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Hosts and Guests:

• Joe Saul-Sehy: Host of The Stacking Benjamins Show
• OG (Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug): Co-host and frequent contributor
• Jesse Kramer: Financial Planning Expert
• Paula Pant: Personal Finance Expert and Author

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Introduction

In episode SB1638 titled "The Case Against Early Retirement," Joe Saul-Sehy and OG delve into the increasingly popular topic of early retirement. Joined by financial experts Jesse Kramer and Paula Pant, the discussion navigates the multifaceted implications of retiring early, challenging the conventional allure of financial independence at a young age.

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Health Implications of Early Retirement

The conversation begins with a critical examination of how early retirement can adversely affect one's health. Paula Pant introduces the idea that retiring early may lead to health deterioration.

Notable Quote:

Paula Pant [09:28]: "By virtue of retiring later, you tend to live longer. A lot of that's attributed to you're socializing more, you're keeping your brain sharper. Apparently, work is good for your health."

Paula explains that work often provides social interactions and mental engagement, both of which are crucial for maintaining health. Jesse Kramer adds a nuanced perspective by comparing early retirement to the "holiday heart attack syndrome," suggesting that a sudden shift from a structured work life to unstructured retirement can lead to negative health outcomes.

Notable Quote:

Jesse Kramer [10:26]: "There's one thing out there called holiday heart, which is simply that when you drink a lot, your heart has more arrhythmias... taking a step back from normal life, which was work, and you enter this phase where you're just doing more R and R... it tends to have a slightly negative effect."

Jesse emphasizes that the lack of structure and purpose in retirement can lead to increased sedentary behavior and neglect of personal health, ultimately impacting longevity.

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Socialization and Purpose

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the loss of social connections and purpose that often accompanies early retirement. Joe Saul-Sehy highlights the common scenario where individuals move to new locations for retirement without establishing a robust social network.

Notable Quote:

Joe Saul-Sehy [15:05]: "Sometimes our goal setting for retirement sets us up for failure. Like if I say I'm going to retire and move to some way, half across the country where I have no social network... I set myself up to lose."

Jesse Kramer concurs, pointing out that many people do not consider the importance of maintaining and building social connections post-retirement.

Notable Quote:

Jesse Kramer [16:13]: "The average person pre-retirement isn't considering social connections as one of their primary goals... How do we alleviate that? I suppose it's just doing the kind of things we're talking about here. Like you have to become aware of it pre-retirement and make it one of your priorities."

OG shares a personal anecdote about relocating and the gradual building of a social network through community interactions, emphasizing the importance of proactive relationship building.

Notable Quote:

OG [20:27]: "I sat on the front porch with a bottle of pre-made margarita mix... my neighbor came out and he's like, 'Hey, are you the new neighbors?'... That's probably where we started."

These insights underscore the necessity of intentional efforts to maintain social ties and derive purpose beyond financial independence.

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Financial Planning and Risks

The episode delves into the financial complexities of early retirement, highlighting common pitfalls that retirees may encounter. Paula Pant notes the declining availability of traditional pension systems, stressing the importance of financial literacy and meticulous planning.

Notable Quote:

Paula Pant [21:13]: "Financial literacy is unfortunately not taught in schools... It's up to the individual to read books, listen to podcasts, watch YouTube videos, to get the education that nobody is going to give them."

Jesse Kramer warns about the long-term sustainability of retirement funds, especially when relying on early retirement savings that may not account for unexpected expenses or market fluctuations.

Notable Quote:

Jesse Kramer [22:10]: "The longer that retirement timeline is, the higher the probability that if you have an error in your math, it is going to come to the surface."

Joe Saul-Sehy shares a concerning observation about a YouTube video where an individual claims to retire in her early to mid-50s with $500,000, noting the unrealistic expectations such narratives can set.

Notable Quote:

Joe Saul-Sehy [24:41]: "You're saying $500,000 doesn't turn into a lot of income. Over that long period of time, half a million dollars is a great savings, but stretching it out to 40 years is highly risky."

The discussion highlights the necessity of incorporating a significant margin of safety in financial plans and the importance of guarding against over-reliance on optimistic investment returns.

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Real-Life Examples and Anecdotes

Throughout the episode, speakers share personal stories and hypothetical scenarios to illustrate the challenges of early retirement.

OG recounts his family's move to Dallas and how establishing social connections through his children's school facilitated their integration into the community.

Notable Quote:

OG [20:27]: "We started relationship building with the parents from school... It wasn't until we bought our house that we really kicked it off."

Jesse Kramer reflects on clients who retire using the "10% rule," maintaining their portfolio's initial value during favorable market conditions but remaining vulnerable during downturns.

Notable Quote:

Jesse Kramer [22:35]: "They are living the high life because the market has cooperated with them, but I'm worried about the next 10 years where who knows what's going to happen."

These narratives serve to illustrate the delicate balance between leveraging financial strategies and preparing for unforeseen challenges in retirement.

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Insights and Conclusions

The episode concludes with a consensus that early retirement is fraught with potential risks that extend beyond mere financial considerations. The key takeaways emphasize the importance of maintaining purpose, social connections, and robust financial planning to ensure a fulfilling and sustainable retirement.

Notable Quote:

OG [42:00]: "You have to have something to do... Join a community, be part of something that gives you a purpose or something to look forward to."

Paula Pant echoes the need for intentionality in retirement planning, advocating for a multifaceted approach that integrates both financial and personal well-being.

Notable Quote:

Paula Pant [45:36]: "Financial planning that encompasses planning a good life, beyond just the numbers, is the point of what we're all trying to achieve here."

Jesse Kramer reinforces the idea that financial planners should adopt a more holistic view, incorporating subjective aspects such as personal goals and lifestyle preferences into financial plans.

Notable Quote:

Jesse Kramer [50:35]: "It's a delicate balancing act where I never want to dictate lifestyle choices to a client... My job is to provide them some of the answers of the outcomes of those decisions."

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Final Thoughts

"The Case Against Early Retirement" serves as a cautionary exploration of the allure of retiring early. The episode effectively balances statistical insights with personal anecdotes, painting a comprehensive picture of the multifaceted challenges that early retirees may face. By highlighting the interplay between financial stability, health, and social well-being, The Stacking Benjamins Show provides listeners with valuable considerations to inform their retirement planning decisions.

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Key Quotes with Timestamps:

• Paula Pant [09:28]: "By virtue of retiring later, you tend to live longer. A lot of that's attributed to you're socializing more, you're keeping your brain sharper. Apparently, work is good for your health."

• Jesse Kramer [10:26]: "There's one thing out there called holiday heart, which is simply that when you drink a lot, your heart has more arrhythmias... taking a step back from normal life, which was work, and you enter this phase where you're just doing more R and R... it tends to have a slightly negative effect."

• Joe Saul-Sehy [15:05]: "Sometimes our goal setting for retirement sets us up for failure. Like if I say I'm going to retire and move to some way, half across the country where I have no social network... I set myself up to lose."

• Jesse Kramer [16:13]: "The average person pre-retirement isn't considering social connections as one of their primary goals... How do we alleviate that? I suppose it's just doing the kind of things we're talking about here. Like you have to become aware of it pre-retirement and make it one of your priorities."

• Paula Pant [21:13]: "Financial literacy is unfortunately not taught in schools... It's up to the individual to read books, listen to podcasts, watch YouTube videos, to get the education that nobody is going to give them."

• Jesse Kramer [22:10]: "The longer that retirement timeline is, the higher the probability that if you have an error in your math, it is going to come to the surface."

• Joe Saul-Sehy [24:41]: "You're saying $500,000 doesn't turn into a lot of income. Over that long period of time, half a million dollars is a great savings, but stretching it out to 40 years is highly risky."

• Paula Pant [45:36]: "Financial planning that encompasses planning a good life, beyond just the numbers, is the point of what we're all trying to achieve here."

• OG [42:00]: "You have to have something to do... Join a community, be part of something that gives you a purpose or something to look forward to."

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Conclusion

Listeners are encouraged to approach the concept of early retirement with a balanced perspective, considering not only financial capabilities but also the vital elements of health, social connections, and personal fulfillment. This episode underscores the importance of comprehensive planning and intentional living as foundational pillars for a successful and satisfying retirement.

Transcript

[Joe Salciha]

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[Doug]

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[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. And are there drawbacks when you retire early? One popular publication says you should think twice before retirement because reasons. We'll dive in with the woman who says you can afford any retirement, just not all the retirement Paula Pant. And the guy who says it's in your best interest to plan a great retirement, Jesse Zgurl Kramer. That's the real name on the birth certificate.

[Joe Salciha]

What are you doing?

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

And also the guy who's all about squeezing the most out of that retirement dream. OG not only will they share their thoughts on retirement planning, but they'll also lock horns in our epic year long trivia battle. And now a the guy who's helping you battle better with your money, it's Joe Sal Sia.

[Joe Salciha]

Hey everybody, Happy Friday. We're gonna call it Wing it Friday.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

As Doug Just making it up way.

[Joe Salciha]

Off script on the open today. But today hopefully is way off script because I was inspired. I was inspired by this piece that, that I read and actually I was inspired because I'm going to be speaking at retire meet in Seattle next week. As I was researching and diving into my presentation, it brought me back to this case against early retirement. Why would somebody want early retirement? Well, we're glad these people haven't retired yet because we have them here to comment today and talk about the case against early retirement. Oh geezer. How are you man?

[OG]

I'M just living the dream, three espressos at a time.

[Joe Salciha]

He sounds like he hasn't started on the espresso trade yet though. It's weird how a guy could have three of them and still living the dream. Three in.

[OG]

Hold on, let me read my script. I am living the dream three espressos.

[Joe Salciha]

At a time in your very large mug. You're incredibly large mug. Speaking of large mug, Jesse Kramer's here.

[Jesse Kramer]

Joe, do you say you're speaking at retirement next week?

[Joe Salciha]

I am, yes.

[Jesse Kramer]

Is that M e e t retire.

[Joe Salciha]

Beat M e a t retiring all the meats.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Not a singles bar for retired people.

[Joe Salciha]

It is m e e t in Seattle.

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm, I'm living till 95 because I go to retire meet every night after work.

[Joe Salciha]

I, I had that way about 10 to 4 so that when they open at 4 o'clock I'm there all the other old people. Good seeing you too, Jesse.

[Jesse Kramer]

Good to see you. I'm excited for today.

[Joe Salciha]

I am excited too and I can't wait to get your take as I can't wait to get this woman's take. Paula Pants here. How are you?

[Paula Pant]

I actually love the concept of retire meat. Like you think about the carnivore community, the keto community, the lion diet by Mikayla Peterson. I mean you've got all of these very meat centric diets and you've also got the retirement planning community and these are like just. Why not have that crossover.

[Joe Salciha]

The lion diet.

[Paula Pant]

Oh yeah, yeah, the lion diet.

[Joe Salciha]

Lion. Is that where you just fib all day long?

[Paula Pant]

Well, it might be, but you also only eat ruminant meat. Meat from ruminant animals.

[Joe Salciha]

Oh my goodness.

[OG]

Yeah, use a shorter word.

[Paula Pant]

Animals with like big bigger animals with multiple stomachs.

[Joe Salciha]

Right, okay, smaller ruminant in a sentence.

[OG]

So that would be cows.

[Joe Salciha]

Only from cows.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah.

[OG]

Like you eat cows?

[Paula Pant]

Pretty much. You eat cows, goats, goat. Basically you eat cow.

[Joe Salciha]

Don't goats have multiple stomachs?

[Paula Pant]

That's the technical definition of ruminant, actually. Ruminant animals, a ruminant digestive system. Cattle, all domesticated in wild bovines, goat, sheep, giraffes, deer, gazelles and antelopes.

[OG]

Oh, giraffe is the delicacy that most people have never had. Oh.

[Paula Pant]

They belong to the suborder ruminantia. And they're able to acquire nutrients from plant based food by fermenting it in a specialized stomach prior to digestion, principally through microbial action.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

That noise. Joe, our listeners running for the door.

[Joe Salciha]

I know, I was gonna say Doug. I Hate to break up this rumination. Ruminant. Yeah, I'm on fire. We got a great show. We're going to talk about the case against early retirement. Today we've got Jesse, Paula's here, OG's here, Doug's here. And at the halfway point, we've got our trivia question. It's week two of the new trivia challenge for 2025. Who's going to come out on top today? We're going to find out that. But the first thing we're going to find out is who the sponsors are who make this free so you don't have to pay for it. Let's say hello to them and then we're on to talking early retirement. Small business owners stay farms there with small business insurance to fit your specific needs. Whether you're starting a new venture or growing an existing one, State Farm helps you choose the right coverage to protect what matters most. Working with a local State Farm agent helps you understand your coverage options, offering local support to help you achieve your goals. Focus on turning your passion into a thriving business, knowing your insurance can change as your business grows. State Farm here to help you succeed with your business. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there, ah, debt. Well, it can take a toll on you. Between minimum payments and interest rates. It's really stressful and at times feels like you just can't get ahead. Navy Federal Credit Union understands debt is a huge stressor and they're here to help. Navy Federal Credit Union has all the financial tools and resources you need to dominate debt right now when you're putting your strategy together. One strategy I like is to surf your interest rates down to zero and continue to pay as little interest. To quote the man as possible, Navy Federal Credit unions offering a 0% intro APR on credit card balance transfers for 12 months. Plus you can get $250 when you spend 20 $500 in your first 90 days on a cash rewards or cash rewards plus credit card. So lay out your plan, figure out how to use the tools and don't let debt drag you down. Visit navy federal.org to start dominating debt today. Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. After the intro rate expires, variable APRs are 15.15% to 18% based on creditworthiness. Rates are subject to change. ATM fees for cash advances are up to $1 at non Navy Federal ATMs. All right, today's piece was inspired.

[OG]

Actually.

[Joe Salciha]

Originally it was inspired by Wes Moss's book what the Happiest retire. And in the intro, as I was leafing through the book, creating my presentation for retire meat, all the retire meats. See, I can't get out of my head now, I was reading the introduction again, and Wes was talking about how this particular piece in 2019 really upset him, like he was not happy with this piece. So I went back and I realized I had read this before. I don't know. Oh, gee, had you read this piece before? What? The Case Against Early Retirement.

[OG]

I hadn't read it.

[Joe Salciha]

No.

[OG]

And if I did, I didn't.

[Jesse Kramer]

Hadn't read it. Nope.

[Paula Pant]

Nope. First time.

[Joe Salciha]

Let's dive into this. Now, obviously, all three of you have audiences that are people that either a, have retired, are hoping to retire, are hoping to retired, are hoping to retire at someday. Jesse, you're in a financial planning firm working with people chasing that. Oh, gee, you've worked with people trying to get there. This idea of, of the case of early retirement, the first thing it goes over, Paula, the first thing it goes over is health. It's like, no, early retirement's bad for your health. You shouldn't do it.

[Paula Pant]

Right. And, you know, they point out, you can't actually, the ability to study this is a little bit limited in that you can't just randomly assign certain people to retire and certain people to not. But there have been unintentional pseudo social experiments in which, for example, a government of a given country might temporarily incentivize people to retire later and in doing so, create a cultural shift in which people retire later for a limited period of time, and then the government removes the incentive and behavior changes again. And so you kind of have these social experiments where you do sort of get something like a control group and a variable group. And what they saw is that by virtue of retiring later, you tend to live longer. And so a lot of that's attributed to you're socializing more. You're keeping your brain sharper. Apparently work is good for your health.

[Joe Salciha]

Jesse, do you buy that? If you work longer, you're going to probably live longer.

[Jesse Kramer]

I don't know if I know enough, but I can tell you I was reminded a lot of the holiday heart attack syndrome, if you guys are familiar with that or like, because I was doing some research on the side, too, and maybe I'm mixing up my phrasing, but there's one thing out there called holiday heart, which is simply that when you drink a lot, your heart has more arrhythmias and you kind of have some palpitations or Some tremors or something like that. But then also there is also this idea that some people who are right on the cusp of a cardiac event and then they go on holiday where they eat a little bit worse and they start drinking a little bit more and they're maybe just not taking care of themselves over the seven day stretch. And that seven day stretch is the straw that breaks the camel's back where the camel is their heart and they actually have a cardiac event as a function of going on vacation. This article or the health portion reminded me of that. Where it's this idea where you take a step back from normal life, which was work, and you enter this phase where you're just doing more R and R. Maybe you're not taking care of yourself as much. Maybe you're lying around a little bit more. When you multiply that over tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people, kind of like Paula was saying, when you look at a really, really big amount of people, that tends to have a slightly negative effect. And for some people it'll be just enough to really lead to some bad health outcomes for them.

[Joe Salciha]

Yeah, we hear this story over and over. Oh gee. To Jesse's point, somebody that retires at 62, you know, they're fine for three, four, five, six months and then they're not with us anymore. Like Jesse. I don't have the data on this, but I have plenty of stories of people that, that are this person.

[OG]

Well, is that a function of retiring too early? Is that a function of not prioritizing health and Wellbeing for the 30 years leading up to that early retirement? I'm so focused on early retirement that I couldn't be bothered to go to the doctor and get my cholesterol checked. There is obviously the sad truth of the fact that men in America in particular are very adverse to doctor's offices and like, ah, it's macho to not have to worry about that, rub some dirt in it, you know, that sort of thing. I don't know that you could say that the retirement did them in. Although certainly there's the anecdotal stories of it happening. But whether it's a function of just taking less care of themselves or being more sedentary or just not having any purpose. I think Doc G would probably point to the fact that when there's nothing else on the calendar, there's nothing else to live for. George Burns was famously talked about this and they asked him why he's living so long. He's like, I'm booked through my 100th birthday, I got stuff to do. I got stuff on the calendar. I think that also explains why you see that rash of people who are unhealthy or maybe terminal. And then right after the holidays pass away, it's like, okay, made it through the holiday season. The family saw it one more time. I got through one more Christmas, now I can die. It's like there's nothing else on the calendar. And that happens, if not only anecdotally. So I think it more revolves around purpose than it does timing of financial independence.

[Joe Salciha]

Well, so that is the question, Paula, because we did a story a few years ago on stacking Benjamin's Dr. Anna Corwin at UCLA had done some work talking about why Catholic nuns live longer than most of the population in the United States. And the reason that she came up with, the only reason they could figure out, was because these nuns had a mission until they died. They had a mission the entire time. There was no such thing as retirement. I had a population to serve. And she even cited a study where in a nursing home, half of the nursing home people that lived there were given a plant that they were told they had to keep alive at all costs. And the other half, the control group, were just allowed to do whatever they wanted to do. You already know which group live longer. Is it more about purpose and less about work? Are we just planning wrong for retirement?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, well, I think there are a few factors at play. I certainly think purpose is a major component of it. But as the article talks about, work naturally creates social interactions. I mean, a little bit less so these days. But now that we're in an era of remote work, for many people, work has inherent social interaction that's involved with it. And that face to face to social interaction, I think is a major part of overall wellness. On top of that, just staying mentally engaged is a big part of keeping like cognitively sharp. So I think purpose is a component of it. Socialization is a component of it. Exercising your brain on a day to day basis just as you would exercise your body, that is a component of it. And I think all of these components work synergistically.

[Joe Salciha]

And let's go into one of the things, Jesse, that Paula talked about, which is this idea of socialization. Right? There's this other thing that people do when they retire, which is they've worked this their entire life based on these goals. I want to move to X place. Let's say that I live in Michigan and I want to move to Texarkana, which is where everybody Wants to go.

[OG]

Yeah. Hashtag goals.

[Joe Salciha]

That's right. But I don't know anybody in Texarkana. We see this all the time. I'm going to move to sunny place. I'm going to move to Hawaii. I'm going to move to some beach somewhere. I don't know anybody there. And now I don't have these social connections I used to have. How intertwined have you found that social connection is with a successful retirement?

[Jesse Kramer]

What you just described there, Joe, is especially important where if the data I'm recalling is correct, it's that women do tend to have a somewhat easier time building new social connections, especially later in life, than men. Again, this is anecdotally what I'm about to say, but I can think of some individuals who. It's almost like they were born to be hermits and they don't mind the lack of social connection. In fact, they get plenty of purpose in life without it.

[OG]

Go on, tell me more, tell me more.

[Jesse Kramer]

Maybe they need a triple espresso just to get the idea of talking to other people. But I think the vast majority of people, even if it's not, you know, it doesn't have to be. What's that one number out there that says like the average human can maintain 150 social connections or whatever that might be. Like it doesn't have to be that. But even someone where you say, yeah, I could pick up the phone and there are 10 people I could reach out to for a cup of coffee or to go on a walk or just to see what they're up to this weekend. If you don't have those kind of connections or just that level of, you know, relatively small connection, I could totally see it just being lonely and harsh. And that's something where I'm aware of the data of loneliness to morbidity. There's such a strong connection there.

[Joe Salciha]

But we make it worse, Jesse. I feel like because we set these goals without thinking about the power of connection. Right. Wes Moss talks about how the average person who's a successful retiree has a strong group of relationships. Like in all the work that his team did, they've had strong relationships. They volunteer with three different groups and they officially belong to some non profit group like a. I don't know if it's the Elks club or some Kiwanis club, whatever it is, they belong to some group also. And these things along with these more than hobbies, these super activities that they do, and they have at least three of them that this really fulfills what they're talking about with sense of purpose. So I think getting back to the relationship piece, I kind of think that when we're setting our goals, sometimes our goal setting for retirement sets us up for failure. Like if I say I'm going to retire and, and I'm going to move to some way, we're half across the country where I have no social network. I know nobody, I know nothing about the place I'm setting myself up to lose.

[Jesse Kramer]

I totally agree. I hear what you're saying and I think part of what you're driving at, Joe, is that the average person pre retirement isn't considering social connections as one of their primary goals at all. To some extent, right? To some extent. Maybe they just take it for granted. Well, of course I have friends. Right. I coach youth soccer and I've got my work buddies and I know some people from outside of work and we'll grab a beer on a Friday night. Of course I've got my friends not thinking of yeah when they move to Texarkana or they can hang out in your basement like no, like you don't want any more people in the basement. So I see what you're saying there and I mean how do we alleviate that? I suppose it's just doing the kind of things we're talking about here. Like you have to become aware of it pre retirement.

[Joe Salciha]

Yeah.

[Jesse Kramer]

And make it one of your priorities.

[Joe Salciha]

Yeah. I think this isn't a retirement problem. This is a pre retirement but where would you ask for kind of thing? Oh gee, you know, you were joking earlier when Jesse was talking, like bring it on. When you talk about being a hermit. But I know you, I've been to your house and you've got this strong social network where you live, you have people around you. But when you first moved to Texas you didn't have that originally. Did that affect your love of the area when you first moved there?

[OG]

That's a really good question. I don't know that it affected how we like the area or not, but it affected a lot of what we did. I, I remember because we moved from a big giant house or what was giant to us anyway, you know, in a community with a golf club and all that sort of stuff. And we moved into a three bedroom apartment, you know, in North Dallas with a bunch of 20 year olds and we had kids and you know, that sort of thing. Like we didn't connect with anyone in the apartment community that would just. Those definitely weren't our people. But we started a little bit of relationship building with the parents from school. I think that's probably the easiest network because, you know, your kids are all friends and, or, you know, at least they know each other in the classroom. So that's probably where we started. And I don't think that until we bought our house, house, you know, which was, I don't know, probably 15 months after we moved to Dallas, that we really kicked it off. In fact, the day that we bought our house and we moved in, we had the moving trucks that day. After that day was over and all the stuff was piled up, I sat on the front porch with a bottle of pre made margarita mix. And that's a good way to make friends because my neighbor came out and he's like, hey, are you the new neighbors? And I said, come on over, look what I got. He's like, oh yeah, buddy. And all we had was plastic cups. We didn't have our stuff out yet.

[Joe Salciha]

That's great.

[OG]

The fridge was making ice and we were drinking Margy's on the porch. But it wasn't until we were planted. If we would have been down in that apartment for another year, I'm not sure that we would have connected with any of those people even then. That wasn't really our social group in terms of who our friends were going to be.

[Joe Salciha]

There is one more piece of this that I'd like to talk about before the break, which is the piece talks about financial fitness. And what it comes down to, Paula, is that with pension systems going away, we're really kind of bad at math. And so we do this early retirement thing thinking I'm going to retire, you know, very, very young, which is something everybody thinks that they want to do until they read studies like this one. And then, you know, we reach 75, 80 years old, we start running out of money.

[Paula Pant]

That's why these shows are so important. That's why podcasts. And I say that it's a little bit of fun, but it's also quite a lot of sincerity. Like financial literacy is unfortunately not taught in schools. I believe it should be, but it's not. And that's the world we live in. And so it is unfortunately up to the individual to read books, to listen to podcasts, to watch YouTube videos, to get the education that nobody is going to give them. There's unfortunately no other solution that I'm, that I'm aware of that could do that other than like just that dedication to lifelong learning and self education.

[Joe Salciha]

How afraid of it should I be though, Jesse? You know, should I, if I'm, if I'm in my. Let's say I'm 50 years old and I'm thinking I'm going to retire early, which is funny because I know some people in the fireman like 50. How cute. I want to go at 40. Right. Or I want to go at 35. But let's say that you're 50. Should we be concerned that we don't have the math right?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yes, you should, in my opinion. I mean, concerned is the. Is the operative word there, because it's like, what do you mean, concerned? How concerned should you be? Should it be something that you're checking twice, especially at age 50? I would say yes, because at least in my mind, or the way I approach it is the longer that retirement timeline is, the higher the probability that if you have an error in your math, it is going to come to the surface.

[Joe Salciha]

Right?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I think that makes sense, or at least I hope I explained it well. And as you're kind of posing the question, I thought about someone who. I know their story. It's a couple that's been retired for about 10 years. Granted, they're a little bit older. They retired at maybe a more traditional like age 60, and they've basically been living on the 10% rule for the last decade. And their portfolio is exactly where it was 10 years ago.

[OG]

Easy to do in the last decade.

[Jesse Kramer]

Exactly. And when they showed me some of their numbers, my immediate thought was, oh, my God, they are. It's. It's almost like I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, because on the one hand, they've had the. They've gotten to live this pretty amazing lifestyle over the last 10 years because the market has cooperated with them. But I'm worried that that has set their mindset in a place where the next 10 years where who knows what's going to happen? Are they going to be able to adjust when they need to? I'm a little worried about that. But getting back to your question, Joe.

[Joe Salciha]

Yeah.

[Jesse Kramer]

If someone wants to retire at 50, 45, 40, I definitely think they need to pay extra attention to whatever mathematical assumptions they're making because they've got a long time ahead of them for something to potentially go wrong, man.

[Joe Salciha]

I mean, I think about. I've been watching, I talked about this on Wednesday's show, but I saw this woman's video on YouTube. What caught my attention was, A, the title, which I'll get to in a second, but B, was the fact that half a million people watch this video and there were so Many positive comments about finally somebody telling us the truth. She's retiring in her early to mid-50s with $500,000. And I thought based on this piece, when you look at A, the math of retirement, B, the, the strain, you know, I mean, we, this piece goes so much into, into fitness and health and about how our health gets worse. Imagine what role does stress play? Like when you're trying to navigate a 500,000retirement OG for 40 years, like stress, that is a stressful place to be. I don't know that I would wish that on anybody. Yeah.

[OG]

And to be clear, you're not saying that $500,000 isn't a lot of money. You're saying $500,000 doesn't turn into a lot of income.

[Joe Salciha]

Correct.

[OG]

Over that long period of time, half a million dollars is a great savings.

[Joe Salciha]

And when you're trying to stretch it out by bragging to everybody that you did it early. Right. And it truly smacks a bragging that you did it early. You somehow picked the lock on how to do this. And then I watched the entire video. She hasn't picked anything except picked a date to retire and said, I'm going today. And I crossed my fingers. Hope it continues.

[OG]

Right. And that's the frustrating thing, obviously that the five of us know here is we can kind of see the future. I feel like that's one of my superpowers, is we've been on this journey so many times with so many people that I don't know that I have the best way to do it. But I know the path that's the most well worn. And I can foresee what struggles might happen. And Jesse, like you're talking about with the, the family that's living on all their growth, which is, is an easy thing to fall into. And you go, well, that's great. Why would that be bad? And I have the exact same story, only I have the story of what happens on the back end of that, because that was me starting my career in 1999 and inheriting or starting to work with a couple who for 1999 money, had insane amounts, over a million dollars and lived every year on 120k. And they were living the high life, you know, in 1999 on $10,000 a month. Because why not? Market's up 10% every year. This is easy.

[Joe Salciha]

Duh.

[OG]

This is easy to do. And then it took one year, aka 2001, for that to kind of come tumbling down. Well, it's only one year. Well, actually it was 2002 also. It was only two years. It was most of 2003 also. And so we see that as from Paula's perspective or what she said about education and literacy, it's like most people look at the dollars and say, oh my gosh, $500,000 is a lot of money. And it is. Half a million dollars is a lot of money. What all of us know is if you would just keep your foot on the gas, one more cycle, that 500 turns into a million and you're good. Or the million turns into two and you're good.

[Joe Salciha]

That's all she needs. Literally, like another one more turn of that screw.

[OG]

Can I get you to hang out? You're 52 and it's different. And it would be different if you were 71 with 500,000. Right? That's a different metric. 100% 51. 52 with 500,000. You're going, I get it. Guess what? You don't get to retire early because you didn't do this stuff from 22 to 52. That's okay. It doesn't make you a bad person. Just. That's not what's going to happen here. You're going to work seven more years.

[Joe Salciha]

So I'm going to. In the second half of this discussion, I want to address the premise of this piece. Is this truly the case against early retirement? Do you go? Yeah, probably shouldn't retire early, probably should keep working longer. Or if you think that we should retire early, how do we get that financial plan right? What are the pieces that we need to add in? We're not going to solve all those questions in 25 minutes, but what we will do is, and LG I love your point. We've all helped a lot of people achieve a lot of goals over the years. And so we're going to dive into that knowledge base and we're going to pick out some of the things we see a lot of people miss. But before we get there, at the halfway point of every Friday show, we have this amazing, should say, amazingly ridiculous, year long trivia competition between our three frequent contributors, OG Paula and Jesse. And we are one week in. And guess what, OG you weren't here last week. Doc G set in from you for, for you rather from the Earn and Invest podcast. We thought for sure, Doug, that with Doc G is the ringer who never wins a trivia question. Like we could count on Jesse and Paula to get this right.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks guys. Way to totally just skin your forehead on the pavement.

[Joe Salciha]

Last week, Doc G wins for OG in week one. So it is OG one, a familiar position, and Paula and Jesse with zero. That means based on last year, Paula gets to guess last. Paul, you want to guess someplace else other than last? Because that doesn't seem to be working.

[Paula Pant]

No, no, I'll stick with last. I'll stick with guessing last.

[Joe Salciha]

All right, Paul is guessing last. Jesse's in the middle. OG's going first. What's on the docket today, Doug?

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Well, hey there, Stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Duggan. Today is the day we say goodbye to the most wicked month of the year, January. Cold, gray, slightly depressing. I mean, what's not to love? But hey, February is here to save the day with more cold and more gray. Wicked. Wicked indeed. Speaking of Wicked, that movie was a box office smash last year, raking in over $700 million so far.

[Doug]

That's right.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Roughly. Let me count. Just under 700 million. More than I'm being paid to hang out with you guys right now. I gotta get a raise. But as Joe's mom always says, money can't buy happiness, but it sure can buy better insulation for the basement. Now get back to work. Shall he says that? Let's ask a question about the music of Wicked, shall we? In the musical, Stephen Schwartz references plays with and and mimics the classic song over the Rainbow throughout the play. In fact, in the song the wizard and I, how many of the song's opening notes, while in a different tempo, are the same opening notes from the older classic song from the wizard of Oz? I'll be back with the answer right after I see what a flight from Topeka to Oz costs. There must have been a better way than a tornado.

[Joe Salciha]

Geez, you do think that's probably the worst way to get anywhere, isn't it?

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Via tornado.

[Joe Salciha]

Via tornado.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

It's an adventure. But yeah, it's a. It's a. It's. It's bad.

[Joe Salciha]

One different thing. Oh, gee, the music of Wicked. In this song, the wizard and I. How many of the first notes? The exact same first notes from over the Rainbow.

[OG]

I just got to pick a number. I'm going to say that. Seven.

[Joe Salciha]

Seven. And that's just random.

[OG]

I mean, it's as good of a guess as I can muster, so one might argue quite random.

[Jesse Kramer]

Jesse, if I play out the first, I'm going to call it the first stanza of over the Rainbow in my head, I think there's 23 notes in it, so I'm going to say 23.

[Joe Salciha]

23. And not random, actually. Gives us a reason why. Oh, gee. He has the method behind the madness. Paula. Paula was like counting on her fingers earlier.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, Well, I mean, I know every lyric to the wizard and I. It's one of my favorite songs, but I never realized that it had any kind of mirroring with over the Rainbow.

[OG]

Nor did I. Yeah, Wicked is my favorite story, but I didn't know that.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. Can I throw in some trivia about Wicked?

[Joe Salciha]

Oh, let's give us some Wicked trivia.

[Paula Pant]

Some Wicked trivia. So the name Elphaba comes from L. Frank Baum, who is the author of the wizard of Oz.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

That's pretty cool.

[Joe Salciha]

Yeah, that is really cool.

[Paula Pant]

It was written by Gregory Maguire. Zero points. I know. I love that song so much. Never realized it had any kind of mirroring over the rainbow. I'm just gonna take the over and guess. 24.

[Joe Salciha]

24. So we have 7, 23 and 20 for notes. Who's right? We're going to find out. Just a minute.

[Doug]

This episode brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there, hoping it all works out? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can get a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help find you options within your budget. Try it [e-mail] progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Joe Salciha]

How high is the interest rate for.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

The new Laurel Road high yield savings account?

[Joe Salciha]

This high.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

The air is really, really thin up here. The Laurel Road Very high yield savings.

[OG]

Account Variable annual percentage yield APY is subject to change at any time. No minimum balance required. Fees may reduce earnings on the account. For full terms and conditions, see LaurelRoad.com savings. LaurelRoad is a brand of KeyBank member FDIC.

[Joe Salciha]

Oh, such a clutch off season pickup, Dave. I was worried we'd bring back the same team. I meant those Blackout motorized shade lines.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install? No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some from my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install hall of fame son. They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world. Blinds.com is the go shop lines.com right.

[Paula Pant]

Now and get up to 45% off select styles plus a professional measure. Rules and restrictions may apply.

[Joe Salciha]

Oh gee, you opened up this shindig by saying 7 notes? Jesse and Paula both think maybe it was a few more than that. What do you think?

[OG]

I mean, I, I basically have whatever 23 minus 7 is and all the downside. So 16 to it depends on the definition of like opening notes. I mean that's. I don't, I don't know what that meant.

[Joe Salciha]

I was literally opening notes, beginning of the song.

[OG]

Like, but where does the opening end and the non opening beginning? I don't know. I mean I. I counted somewhere over The Rainbow having 10 opening notes, like the first line. So, you know, not the whole verse. Maybe it's just the first. Like when they do that. I don't know.

[Joe Salciha]

Well, Jesse, you said 23. Are you whistling right now, Jesse?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Joe Salciha]

Yeah. You feeling good with 23 now that Paula took the over?

[Jesse Kramer]

I feel good that there are 23 notes in the first stanza. I have no idea if the wizard. What's the song? The wizard and I, yes, I should know the musical better, but I don't. So I have no idea if my numbers. I don't feel good to answer your question, Joe.

[Joe Salciha]

Paula, you're looking pretty confident.

[Paula Pant]

No, I'm not. Because I echo what they both said. I don't totally know what opening notes means. What is an opening note? I'm not versed in music theory.

[Joe Salciha]

I think general. Any music theory book will tell you it's the first notes.

[OG]

Where does the first end and the non first begin?

[Joe Salciha]

Well, it's just divergence that the song then goes on its own, but for a while it's the same exact notes, but then it goes off and does something different. So the first note that's not the same would be the one we don't want. So. All right, well, we've. We've ruminated on this, by the way.

[Paula Pant]

Ruminated.

[Joe Salciha]

A different question. The one that we've. That we've. My callbacks, Ninja. Paula. The question that we thought about doing, but that we thought might be way too much in OG's wheelhouse because he's such a fan of Wicked. How many books were there in the original series? Did you know that one? Og.

[OG]

It's an odd number.

[Joe Salciha]

We should have done that one, Doug. No, we should have gone with that one.

[OG]

Is it three or is it nine?

[Joe Salciha]

There was four. There were four.

[OG]

Okay, so it's not a number. It's like literally an even number.

[Joe Salciha]

Okay, what is the answer? Who's winning this thing? Doug?

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Hey there, Stackers. I'm wickedly underappreciated. And the guy who's still waiting for my flying monkey delivery from Amazon Prime. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Let's get to the good stuff. How many books are in the Wicked series by Gregory Maguire? Well, first, a little backstory. Maguire's first book, the Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the west, came out in 1995 and became an instant classic. It made us rethink everything about Oz. Like, maybe Glindo wasn't so good after all. And maybe that flying house was less of a miracle and more of a zoning violation. The book was so popular, it got turned into a Broadway show that's grossed over 1.4 b b b billion dollars to date. That'd be enough to buy me a lifetime supply of flying monkeys that I could use to fly the heck towards some winning trivia answers.

[Joe Salciha]

Yeah, let's do an answer.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Fun fact, those flying monkeys, they totally unionized. So how many notes did Stephen Schwartz use in the Wicked's the Wizard and I that matched the original over the Rainbow? Well, I can tell you this. It was 17 notes less than what Paula guessed, 16 notes less than what Jesse guessed, and exactly freaking 0 less than than what OG guessed because the answer is 7.

[Joe Salciha]

Unbelievable.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Making OG our stupid winner. Congratulations, jerk.

[Joe Salciha]

Jesse, do you want to talk to him about getting it? Right on. Would you like to ask him about getting the number?

[Jesse Kramer]

Have some more espresso there.

[OG]

What's the intro for wizard and I? Is it the opening? It's Elphaba Acapella. That little bit? Yes. Or maybe not.

[Joe Salciha]

Yes.

[OG]

I couldn't remember.

[Joe Salciha]

And it is, by the way, somewhere over the. Somewhere over the rainbow. Seven.

[Jesse Kramer]

So seven.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Is there seven? Each syllable is a unique note.

[OG]

Yeah, so I got that part, but then I figured the next part of that was also included. And I got to 10, and then I figured it wasn't exactly all 10.

[Joe Salciha]

When you said seven, Doug, I was like, oh, my God.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Yeah. You even said that was just a random guess.

[Joe Salciha]

Well, just because he wasn't giving us any information about it.

[OG]

Next time, just go like, forget it. We're done.

[Joe Salciha]

Next, Jesse. Paula, we don't need a guess. Probably could have done that. Well, you know what? That would have given us more time for the second half of this discussion where we're going to talk about just. Just this premise. Paula, in this piece, the authors at the Wall Street Journal make a case against early retirement. Would you make that same case given all this data?

[Paula Pant]

Well, so the first thing I would say. And we should probably establish the definition of the word retirement, because if we're defining the word retirement as the permanent and irrevocable cessation of income. That is a pretty high bar.

[OG]

It's a lot of words.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Are we in Russia? We're not in Russia, are we?

[Paula Pant]

But if we're defining retirement as leaving your primary career and, or your primary occupation and transitioning to maybe you sabbatical for a while and then maybe take on a little bit of part time work, a little freelance, you kind of gig work, but in only in things that seem fun and interesting or you do some non profit stuff, a little volunteering, you know, like if we're essentially talking about a well funded career shift in which you move to more flexible and maybe part time or flexible time work, all right, that's a very different story because then you are still collecting an income at least sporadically. Not as much of one, you know, not as consistent of one, but it's a very different story.

[Joe Salciha]

Jesse, do you agree, do I agree.

[Jesse Kramer]

With Paula or do I agree with the, the article?

[Joe Salciha]

Do you agree with, do you agree with Paula's assessment?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I agree with Paula's assessment for sure. And like, I mean when you originally posed the question, Joe, I thought to myself, like I need a comparison here. I need a way to explain the logic of the article. And my comparison is maybe this wasn't true for you, but if you go to college your alcohol consumption will increase and that's bad for your health and it leads to some bad health outcomes. So you might not want to go to college. And it's like, well, hold on a second. Even if that were a true statement, like completely logical, I'm now armed with the idea that maybe I need to go to college and maybe I need to be careful not to drink too much alcohol to avoid the outcome that the average person tends to suffer. Because that's really what the article is saying. The average person who retires early based on this particular data set seems to have some adverse outcomes. Okay, now that I'm armed with that knowledge, I'll do exactly what we've been talking about in this episode. Try to make sure I don't suffer any of those adverse outcomes. And it's at least for me, it's not going to change my mind as to whether I or the people who I communicate with should be retiring early. I don't see the connection there.

[Joe Salciha]

Do you think then og that early retirement just as like a big caution sign in front of it based on today's discussion, even beware what you ask for?

[OG]

I do think so. And it really revolves around a couple of different things. It's obviously the money aspect of it. It's making sure that you have an incredible margin of safety because it's very difficult, no matter what people think, to go back into the workforce with a big gap in your work history. Not because of the gap, but because of the fact that you lose those connections, you lose that network, generally speaking. And, you know, your skills suffer if you, you know, if you don't use those tools a lot, you're going to get left behind. So that's really not a great fallback option that, that you can have. So I think you have to front load that. Either you front load it with margin of safety, with dollars, or you just say, I'm going to have to work a couple extra years. 53 is also early, 55 is also early compared to the averages, so to speak. I think the other piece of it is that you have to have something to do. If you picture financial independence time or retirement time, as I'm going to sit by the pool and sit margaritas and I'm not going to do anything, then a lot of those negative effects are going to manifest themselves, whether it's health issues, societal issues, your friendship group. Nobody wants to hang around with somebody who doesn't do anything. That's not a fun way to spend your week with your friend or whatever. You want to do things. You want to go hiking or golfing or cycling or whatever, do your thing. It doesn't have to cost money. And I think like you said in your observation or Wes Moss observation, be a part of a community. You know, be a part of something that, that gives you a purpose or something to look forward to on a daily or weekly basis to give you a reason to get out of bed. My bed is ultra comfortable and I love it. But seeing you guys is a great reason to get up every day.

[Joe Salciha]

Well, thank you. We'll take that as a nice compliment. I want to dive into that a little more because in Christine Ben's new book, Paula, in the very first chapter, she talks to a guy who's an annuity expert and not about annuities. She talks to him about what a successful retirement's all about. And he starts talking about how you need to, to Og's point, you need to treat retirement the same way you treated your job. You get out of bed at a set time. You have a mission. Just the mission has changed. I feel like based on this conversation and based on this piece, and I love Jesse, I love your analogy on this Front about, you may not want to go to college, man, maybe we're just doing retirement planning all wrong. Like, maybe we really need a deeper dive into what makes a successful retirement. How do I set up that before I go?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. What I absolutely love about Christine Benz's book is the focus on intentionality. If I take a week off of work, I don't necessarily have to be intentional about that week because, heck, it's a week. And sometimes it's nice to just be Garfield the cat for a week. But when we're talking about something that becomes a permanent lifestyle that's ingrained with habits, we have to be intentional and oftentimes throughout our lives. School is an external structure that forces that kind of intentionality. Work, particularly if you have to. If you're not a remote worker, if you have to actually put on pants and leave the house and show up at a specific time, like work, is an external structure that really forces us to be deliberate with how we spend our schedule. And so for many people, retirement is their first experience managing their own schedule for any prolonged period of time. So. So it doesn't surprise me that a lot of people are not that good at it because they've just never done it before. You know, it's. It's not that they're not skilled. It's just. It's. It's new. It's actually new.

[Jesse Kramer]

But.

[Joe Salciha]

But you're also giving some caution there. Like, stop treating it like it's going to be just a vacation, Right?

[Paula Pant]

Exactly. So that's the risk. The stakes of wasting a vacation are quite low.

[Joe Salciha]

What do we need to add, Jesse, then, into our financial plan? If we're considering this, if we're not there yet, that maybe we're. We're not doing right now in our financial plan?

[Jesse Kramer]

Hmm. That's an interesting question. I mean, I guess. I don't know if this exactly answers it, but a lot of people think of their financial plan as purely numbers. And it's very objective. There's not much subjectivity to it. I think it would behoove anybody to think of some subjective aspects of their financial plan, because really, it's. Think of it more as a life plan. It's a retirement plan. And the finances are a really big, important part of that. But there's other parts of it, too. So some of it's just the reframing maybe from a financial plan to a retirement plan or a life plan. But even then, if you do only want to think about the financial side of a financial plan, the numbers the objective side of it, I think it can help to bake in some, some wiggle room when you realize some of the stuff that Paula and Og have been saying that like, oh, maybe this isn't exactly what I want and maybe for me to actually feel fulfilled, to have some purpose, to want to put on the pants every day, I'm going to have to go out and do something. And that doing something is going to cost me a little bit more than I anticipated. And it'd be pretty nice to have that wiggle room already baked into the plan I've put together.

[Joe Salciha]

Question for Og and Jesse, I'd love to get your take on this and your financial planning firm. Do we need to in the financial planning industry? Og Then if somebody's putting together a financial plan and it has some of these cautions not built into it, like, I'm going to move into a part of the world where I don't have any support network, or I haven't really given enough thought to how granular I should think about my days, or I am treating it like a vacation. Should financial planners be calling that out, going, yeah, in the past, I haven't, I haven't seen this work the way that I would hope.

[OG]

Well, the way that I've experienced it is probably a good word is when I hear people say things that are really silly, like, I'm going to play golf every day. You know, and that's kind of a common, I can't wait to retire, I can play golf every day. I immediately jump on that and I'm like, go do that and report back. Just tell me if that's really what you're going to do. Because it's, it's hard to play golf. I don't know, I'm just not that good. But, you know, the professional golfers talk about how hard it is on their bodies and their, you know, it's not an easy thing to do. And okay, so you go do it. So what did you do from noon until seven every day? Then, you know, if you played golf from 8 until noon, okay, I can accept that. I mean, it's a stretch that you're gonna play every day, but, you know, what are you gonna do from noon till 7? Sit by the pool and drink margaritas. You know, it's like, and you'll do that for a while, that's totally great. But again, I think that it has to involve more than, you know, leisure activities. You know, you have to have time for health and wellness. You have to have a time for Spirituality, whatever that means to you. You have to have time for growth and development. You have to have time for your family, whatever that looks like extended or immediate. And if you have all of those things, you're likely to have a fulfilled retirement, whether that fulfillment is going to be six months or six years or 16 years or 36 years. And that's really the thing. At the end of the day, none of us know how many days we've got left. And if you live every day with a sense of like, okay, I'm going to live today, well, on purpose, to borrow a phrase from Doc G, nobody can be upset about that.

[Joe Salciha]

It seems to me there's so many other things that I noticed just getting ready for this talk, like, people move where their kids are.

[OG]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Salciha]

Again, they don't have any support network there, but they move where their kids are. Turns out that that is often a mistake. Let's say that the kids have kids. The kids have a life. They have things that they do. They might want to hang out with you sometime, but they don't want to hang out with you all the time. Maybe they do, but generally they have other things that they want to do. Another surprising one was people are too quick to downsize their house when they retire. They quickly downsize their house, and then it makes it more difficult for the family to come and visit them if they decide to stay, stay where they are, and they're on top of each other. All of a sudden, assuming that you're living with another person or even if you're not, you just, you don't have the room that you had, and now it's a, it's a less happy retirement. Do you think Paul of the financial planning industry, like, needs to do a better job of pointing out, hey, these, these are some things that are beyond the numbers, that maybe we should get better?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that financial planning that encompasses, that goes beyond the numbers and encompasses like planning a good life. That's really the point of what we're, we're all trying to achieve here. So the more that that can be taken into account, the better.

[Joe Salciha]

And here's the question, though, and this one, Jesse, I guess I'll give this to you, which is, in your experience, though, will people pay more for that? Because I hear what Paul is saying, and I think that would be phenomenal financial planning. But my experience in the business is people aren't going to pay you more money for that. They're going, oh, that's cute. That's so cute. But, yeah, that Sounds like fluff.

[Jesse Kramer]

I wouldn't be surprised if most people fall in line with your thoughts there, Joe. But I will say there are some ancillary, whether it's services or questions you can ask, there's ancillary value that a financial planner can provide to their clients that while maybe they don't charge for it, it certainly makes the relationship stronger, stickier.

[Joe Salciha]

It increases differentiation.

[Jesse Kramer]

Oh totally, totally. It increases the reputation of whether it's the individual planner or the firm or whatever it may be. And I think it's kind of good that there's competition in this industry and that competition is pushing people to think creatively about how can I add more value to my clients lives. Thinking about the question that you you posed to Og and Paula, it's I find it hard. It's just a delicate balancing act where I never want to dictate lifestyle choices to a client or I certainly don't want to try to like paste my own personal preferences on top of what a client wants to do. Like, oh, you want to spend $10,000 a year on horseback riding? I would never spend that much money on horseback riding. Well, guess what, it's not my money. But my job is to let them know some of the mathematical still tell them it's stupid.

[OG]

I'm kidding. To all the people riding horses out.

[Joe Salciha]

There, that'd be a fantastic. Yeah, that's dumb. Why do you want to do that?

[Jesse Kramer]

Whatever the goal is, horses are they ruminant. My job is to provide them some of the answers of the outcomes of those decisions for sure. And then at times going back to the whole gist of today's conversation when it's applicable and when I feel like I know what I'm talking about to cite either anecdotal data or actual study based data that says, oh, that's kind of interesting. I actually know some stories or I know some data about someone who uprooted their life, moved across the country to chase their kids and had to build a new community in retirement.

[Joe Salciha]

Exactly.

[Jesse Kramer]

Here are some things to think about and that's some pretty powerful value add right there.

[Joe Salciha]

Just giving people the opportunity to know that historically this is going to require a lot more planning. People have stumbled over this. Amanda. Don't want you to. You want to move halfway across the country where you don't know anybody. Great goal, fantastic goal. Hopefully you're not riding horses on that goal. I didn't know. Probably not now. The horse lovers are going to come for me too. I think that's going to do it. For today. That's a, it's interesting because. Oh, gee, just over the, the last 30 years, just seeing where financial planning has, how much it has changed and how much we get more and more into the behavior of this. And like Josh Brown from CNBC said when he was on the show, just how young this industry still is. You know, we're still gathering data. It's only maybe 50 years, the last 50 years that people have had this new, exciting financial plan. And Paula, are you thinking about horse stomachs?

[Paula Pant]

I am thinking about Jesse's joke of are they ruminant?

[Joe Salciha]

I could just tell. I'm like, this is not that funny, Paula. This is not.

[Paula Pant]

I'm still laughing at that one.

[Joe Salciha]

Well, let's laugh at what's going on at Afford Anything then. Why don't we transition into that?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, well, on the Afford Anything podcast. Let me, let me pull up what's coming up. Look, you're catching me unawares.

[Joe Salciha]

Well, hold on. While you're doing that, let's go to OG first, first weekend in February coming up. Og how did they celebrate at the OG household? February.

[OG]

February.

[Joe Salciha]

Fred Brew. Oh, Brew.

[OG]

No, not as a. Doesn't you had to say that? But there's an R there, Not February. What are we doing this weekend? If we haven't found out yet, today is the day we find out. Two college decisions for my son. There's some rumor we're recording this a little early. So there's some rumor that maybe the information will be released a week ago. So we might already know, but definitely today. And this will be an interesting discussion this week. This, this will be the discussion this weekend of. Okay, here's all the answers where what are we thinking? What do we got to do?

[Joe Salciha]

What's the plan to that point? Oh, gee. While we're recording this, in the last two days, my niece Saffron, she has had two letters in the last two days being accepted to two great colleges and getting these fantastic financial aid packages, which are great.

[OG]

Sweet. Yeah, even better.

[Joe Salciha]

All right, Paula, what's happened to the.

[Paula Pant]

Afford Anything show On the Afford Anything podcast? First Friday of every month, we do our first Friday economic update episode. So we've got that for the month of February. We also have an interview with Dr. Margie Worrell. She writes about research based tips and information to overcome fear whenever. It's basically, how do you develop courage? How do you overcome your fears and your anxieties in anything that you want to do? So that could be as an investor, it could be in your career. So we Talked to her about some of the science around. Being more courageous is. So all of that is on the Afford Anything podcast along with, of course, every other episode with you, Joe.

[Joe Salciha]

Those are the brilliant episodes. The fantastic. Actually. We do have a ton of fun answering lots of questions from the community that are all over the place. It's like a big potpourri. We never know what's coming up next on those episodes. But I want to get back to fear. I mean, fear is. Back when I was a financial planner, that was the big thing. I mean, fear stopped people from doing so many. Nothing objective, just absolute fear.

[Paula Pant]

Right.

[Joe Salciha]

That just stopped us, I think, from living our life so much so. Sounds like a fantastic interview, Jesse, what's happening at the Best Interest Podcast? My friend, a couple days ago we.

[Jesse Kramer]

Released episode 99, which was another ask me anything episode, which I think are. It's interesting. They're becoming both my favorite to record and also I think the fan favorites to listen to. So that's a. It's a good thing, right? That's a good combination to have just.

[Joe Salciha]

More Jesse all the time. Is that what it is? It's.

[Jesse Kramer]

It's a little too much Jesse, but yeah, it's a lot of Jesse in one episode. But that means that in like a week and a half we are releasing episode 100, which I will tell you guys and tell the stackers here, it's coming with a brand change. It may or may not become the Better Interest podcast. No, it won't.

[Joe Salciha]

It won't.

[Jesse Kramer]

Slim chance. But yeah, we are rebranding the podcast. We are rebranding. So that's a little nerve wracking, but mostly exciting.

[Joe Salciha]

Is just gonna be the Jesse Kramer Show. Is that it? With a raised eyebrow.

[Jesse Kramer]

I can't. I can't.

[OG]

Just gonna call it Kramer.

[Jesse Kramer]

Neither confirm nor deny. Oh, the. The Kramer Investing podcast.

[OG]

Back to the drawing board.

[Joe Salciha]

Oh, wait a minute, somebody's already got that. Oh, man, that's at the Best Interest Podcast. Where Finer podcast, 99 episodes, episode 100, right around the corner. All right, that's going to do it for today. Thank you to all of you for hanging out with us. Thanks to everybody who hung us on YouTube today, watching us make this show. We had a great time and I think we're going to have Doug take it from here, man. Doug, what should we have learned on today's show?

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from OG before you retire. Make sure you've identified a purpose that will keep you pointed in the right direction when one day starts to blend in with another that. Or just sit in the front porch with a bottle of margaritas.

[Joe Salciha]

That's. That was my favorite lesson, I think.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Second, remember that little pearl of wisdom that Jesse gave us about the, you know, the stuff we need to change in our financial plan before we retire? Well, Jesse, why don't you just go ahead and put a bow on that one for us?

[Jesse Kramer]

Think about the subjective things, not just the objective numbers.

[Joe Salciha]

Wasn't it ruminate about the subjective things.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Okay.

[Jesse Kramer]

Ferment on some subjective things first and then move the fermented cud onto the second stomach.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

Okay, can I get back to work here?

[Joe Salciha]

Oh, sorry.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

But the big lesson, don't ask Joe's mom if she's related to the Witch of the West. No matter how many times she's watched Wicked, she'll still take it the wrong way. Thanks to Jesse Kramer for joining us today. Listen to the Best Interest podcast wherever you're listening to us today. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] thanks. Wow. I told you. I have to say it differently because it's just getting old. Thanks to Paula Pan for hanging out with us today. You'll find find her fabulous podcast Afford Anything. Wherever you listen to Finer, I think it's afford anything. I just have to pick different words to emphasize. Thanks also to OG for joining us today. Looking for good financial planning help, head to stacking benjamin's.com OG for his calendar. This show is the property of SB Podcast Casts, LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Josal Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.

[Joe Salciha]

Oh yeah.

[Joe's Mom's Neighbor Doug]

And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.