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- [00:00]
Joe Salcihai
And now word from our sponsors at Betterment, when investing your money starts to feel like a second job, Betterment steps in with a little work life balance. We're the automated investing and savings app that handles the work so you don't have to. Your money is diversified and optimized day after day, again and again. Because your money doesn't need a work life balance, you do. Plus, new investing customers can get up to $1,000 with a qualifying deposit. Two terms apply. Make your money hustle with Betterment. Get started@betterment.com investing involves risk performance not guaranteed.
- [00:40]
Doug
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home, and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it.
- [01:03]
Joe Salcihai
So your dollar goes a long way.
- [01:05]
Doug
Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
- [01:20]
OG
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and you've got the stock market beat. But the man worthwhile is the man who can smile when his shorts are too tight in the seat. Okay, Pookie, do the honors.
- [01:46]
Doug
Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and does making more money actually make you happier, or does shoveling away cash excite you? We'll talk through this and other big either or questions on today's show. But that's not all. Either one of these brilliant minds will win my trivia today, or the show will never end. Which is better? And now, a guy who never ends. When you ask about his favorite board games, it's Joe Salci.
- [02:34]
Joe Salcihai
Doug, you know you love it. He knows he loves it.
- [02:37]
Doug
I love it because I have trouble falling asleep at night. And then you just. You're like a magic pill.
- [02:43]
Joe Salcihai
Welcome back to the Stacky Benjamin show, where we've got some crankiness in the basement today. But, man, we're gonna have fun during the next hour. And you know why? That's because. Oh, geez. Here with us. How are you, man?
- [02:56]
OG
Just for clarification purposes, I've seen the Bud Light commercial with Postie and Shane Gillis, and they're like, yeah, you can't drink on TV on a. It's. Since it's not an actual beer commercial, this is allowed, right?
- [03:09]
Joe Salcihai
You're gonna show the brand and everything.
- [03:12]
OG
Today shows sponsored by Michelobal.
- [03:15]
Doug
If you're drinking an actual beer, the FCC might care.
- [03:17]
Joe Salcihai
Instead of water, right?
- [03:19]
OG
It does its work, man. 4.2% just goes right through you. Yeah.
- [03:25]
Joe Salcihai
And a guy who. I don't know. Are you Shotgun a beer. Jesse Kramer from personal finance for long term investors.
- [03:32]
OG
Podcast kids are doing it.
- [03:34]
Jesse Kramer
I am not shotgunning, but drinking quickly. A raspberry lime polar seltzer.
- [03:40]
Joe Salcihai
Oh, look at that.
- [03:42]
Jesse Kramer
Delicious. Zero calorie. I'm training for something this summer, so I'm trying to, you know, work out a little more, eat a little healthier, keep the liquid calories to a minimum.
- [03:50]
OG
This is 90 calories that doesn't even exist list.
- [03:53]
Joe Salcihai
You're also in the financial planning office right now, I think. So here's what. Just grab a mick light, head out to the. To the lobby where the clients come in.
- [04:04]
Jesse Kramer
See this reader when they, when they.
- [04:08]
Joe Salcihai
Come into the office, say, have you been watching CNBC today? And hand them one right as they come in the door.
- [04:16]
OG
You're going to need a couple of these.
- [04:18]
Joe Salcihai
Yes. And the woman, I don't know, man. She's had quite a week. Is she drinking yet? Paula Pant from Afford Anything's here.
- [04:24]
Paula Pant
I am here and I am drinking tap water. New York City tap water.
- [04:29]
OG
Vodka, New York's finest.
- [04:31]
Joe Salcihai
It's actually vodka, but you can't tell on a YouTube live.
- [04:35]
Paula Pant
It's actually liquid LSD.
- [04:38]
Joe Salcihai
You have had not the best week, though, Paula. You've had. You're about to have a vet bill that is not small.
- [04:45]
Paula Pant
Yeah, yeah. So far we've racked up maybe around 10,000 or so.
- [04:51]
OG
For what?
- [04:52]
Paula Pant
My cat was diagnosed with lymphoma. It took a while to get to that diagnosis. She had to have a biopsy. She had to be hospitalized a few times, but she's meeting with an oncologist on Wednesday.
- [05:04]
Joe Salcihai
That's where it goes sideways for me. Well, my cat's meeting with the oncologist.
- [05:08]
Paula Pant
Yeah, that's like.
- [05:11]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, my cat's not meeting with the oncologist.
- [05:13]
Paula Pant
Yeah, yeah. No, I'm gonna start her on chemotherapy pretty soon.
- [05:17]
Joe Salcihai
That's just ugly. Well, sorry to hear that. We're gonna take your mind off it for an hour, though, Paula, because we're gonna ask you whether it's better to make more money or save money. Which one makes you happier? Sam Dogan, who is our special guest on Monday, wrote this piece where he posits the idea that he thinks it's better to save More money than make more money. Like saving gives you more joy. We're going to find out here in just a second what each of you think. But before we get there, we've got a couple sponsors that make sure that all of this either or goodness is free. You don't have to pay for any of it. So we're going to hear from them and then og, Jesse, Paula, Doug and I talking either or in a bunch of different financial planning concepts. So let's go. Today's show is sponsored by Strawberry Me Stackers. All right, everybody, let's talk careers. You know, you work hard, you bring in a paycheck, maybe even contribute to your 401k, like a responsible adult gold star for you. But here's the thing. Making money is great, but making the right move to actually grow your career and earn more, Are you doing that? Because, let's be honest, hoping your boss finally notices you and hands you a raise. That is not a plan. That is a gamble. And unless you're the type of person who gets excited about betting their retirement on meme stocks, you probably want a better strategy. I certainly do. I have a coach, Mary Lou, that I meet with every Monday morning. And Mary Lou and I lay out my week. We talk about doing the things that are important to my family, that are important for my health, and the things that are important for financial literacy and stacking Benjamins and the intersection of all those things. And that's where Strawberry Me career coaching can help you. They'll match you with a certified career coach, somebody who knows how to help you get ahead. Like my coach helps me negotiate better pay and actually make smart money moves. So you're not leaving money on the table. You've heard me talk about this before. The key is to have people around you, smart people around you who hold you accountable to getting those things you say that you want for yourself. If you're anything like me, you've been meaning to, quote, update your resume for like, the last five years. I remember what Mary Lou said. Are we going to keep talking about this book? Are you finally going to write it? And I'm very proud of stacked, but without Murray Lu, I would have never had Stacked. Your career is your biggest financial asset. It's time to start treating in that way. When I started treating it that way, things change. It can be the same for you. So here's the deal. Go to Strawberry Me. It's Strawberry Me stacking, and you'll claim your 50 credit that strawberry Me Stacking because maximizing your earnings is just as important as maximizing your investments. Strawberry Me does not facilitate or provide healthcare services. Please consult with a healthcare professional. But guys, let's get smart people around us, shall we? This message is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union May is Military Appreciation Month and we're celebrating the military community that goes above and beyond every day with Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal was created for the military community. It is dedicated to ensuring that its members feel celebrated and honored every single day. For over 90 years, Navy Federal's mission has been to support and uplift the military community and this May is no different. It's not just a credit union, it's also a partner dedicated to helping its members achieve their financial goals. All active duty veterans and members of the military families are eligible to join. Navy Federal is excited to celebrate Military Appreciation Month as a special time to recognize our troops and the profound contributions that they make. Learn more@navy federal.org Celebrate Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Hey Stackers. Great news that we received after we recorded these shows. You may have heard this last week, but if you missed our greatest his week, we are coming to Boston Boston Area Stackers. I will be there on Tuesday, May 20th at Idle Hands Brewing in Malden. The place to sign up is stackybenjamins.com meetup go make sure we know that you're coming. We're gonna have a good time with either a foamy beverage or just the beverage of your choice. Non foamy is perfectly acceptable as well. But you know what, hanging out with you is something that is so fun. We had a great time last time I was in the Boston area Idle Hands Craft Ales in Malden Tuesday, May 20 Boston area stackers stacky benjamins.com meetup to tell us you're coming.
- [10:16]
Paula Pant
Hello darlings. And now it's time for your favorite part of the show, our Stacking Benjamin's Headlines.
- [10:23]
Joe Salcihai
Today's piece comes to us from Sam Dogan@financialsamurai.com he begins this piece by saying, we've discussed the curiosity of financial hoarding and as well as one way in which to eradicate the disease by revealing our desires for public shaming. If we feel ashamed, we simply don't spend as much money. Some folks found it a little strange that I find delighting getting judged for having spending desires. After all, we should keep our thoughts pure in order to reach salvation. I love the way Sam writes. It's very funny. The truth of the matter is my love for Saving money almost always trumps whatever negativity or difficulty I've got to endure to save more. The pain of working 14 hour days in my 20s was no match for the joy of having more saving in the bank. All right, Paula, so here's our first either or of the day. Either you can joyfully make more money, have more money coming in the front door, or you can joyfully have more money that you're sucking away into your bank account. Which one of those two things gives you more joy?
- [11:28]
Paula Pant
I disagree with the premise of, you know, it's a false dichotomy. But if I'm rolling with the hypothetical.
- [11:33]
Joe Salcihai
But let's play. We're gonna play rolling.
- [11:35]
Paula Pant
Rolling with the hypothetical. Thousand percent more money. More money coming through the front door. That. Not even a question.
- [11:41]
Joe Salcihai
Hands down, that gives you more joy than feeling the money go into your bank account going, you know what? I'm the squirrel putting this money away.
- [11:49]
Paula Pant
Yeah. Because it gives me the confidence to know that I have the ability to earn.
- [11:53]
Joe Salcihai
I don't know. Jesse, do you agree with that?
- [11:55]
Jesse Kramer
I. I guess I just think about the numbers. I would rather be saving more again. It's like Paul, of course, is right. The whole false dichotomy. Someone once called me that, by the way, and I didn't. They said you're a false dichotomy. I took it pretty harsh.
- [12:09]
OG
I mean, it was your nickname in college.
- [12:10]
Jesse Kramer
It was. It took me a week to recover.
- [12:12]
Joe Salcihai
But Doug, we do have a new nickname now for Jesse when we introduce him at the beginning of the show. False dichotomy.
- [12:17]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah. I think Doug might make it a soft eye instead of a long I. But now that was clever.
- [12:24]
Doug
I like that.
- [12:25]
Jesse Kramer
Thank you. Thank you. But right. If given the hypothetical, I'd rather be saving more because in my mind, that gets me closer to my goals, closer to my, my saving rates, closer to my FI number. However I want to think about it.
- [12:37]
Joe Salcihai
Be hanging out with us on YouTube says sucking away. So there's another one. What for? Just, just to be clear, we're not talking about numbers here. I'm just talking about which one gives you more joy. Which one gives you. So, Paula, it gives you more joy knowing that you've got the engine that could. So you can make more money. And Jesse gives you more joy to know that you're socking it away, putting.
- [12:57]
Jesse Kramer
It in the bank about the caboose that could. That's right.
- [13:00]
Joe Salcihai
That's. Oh, gee. How about you, man? We got a 1:1 tie. Well, with also be in the YouTube Hangout. So I guess it's two to one.
- [13:10]
OG
I mean, I'm with Paula on this one. At the end of the day, it's like the ability to earn income in this fantasy world of either and or with no other strings attached, of systems and process and all that other sort of stuff. I want to make a bunch of money. I think it was, I don't know, was it Warren Buffett or somebody said one time he wants to be the person that pays the most taxes because that means that he made the most money. I'm good with that. I'm happily the person who would pay the most taxes amongst everyone I know because that means that I slayed it. So I'm good with that.
- [13:44]
Doug
It's not a competition.
- [13:45]
OG
OG Everything has to be a competition.
- [13:48]
Doug
Doug, why does it always have to be that way with you?
- [13:51]
OG
That's what gets me going.
- [13:52]
Joe Salcihai
Well, Doug, let's bring you into this because I've known you a long time and I think I can predict that you're going to be team Saving more gives you more joy, but barely.
- [14:02]
Doug
It's a close race, but yes, I think you're right.
- [14:05]
Joe Salcihai
That's interesting. And I'm on the OG Paula team. Making more gives me. Gives me more joy. All right, let's do another one because I don't want to talk about that. I've got a whole list of these and I want to find out which gives you more joy. All right, everybody ready? Paula, number two. Always pay in cash. Dave Ramsey style. Always use cash. Or Joe Sal Sehi style. Always use a credit card. Which one gives you more joy?
- [14:33]
Paula Pant
Always use a credit card.
- [14:35]
Joe Salcihai
Always credit card gives you more joy.
- [14:37]
Paula Pant
Always credit card. Because then you get rewards for the spending that you're already doing. So you get flights, you get miles, you get points. Whether you want points or miles or cash back, which I don't recommend, but that's another option. Whichever way you prefer to get rewarded, you get that. So it's a bonus.
- [14:53]
Joe Salcihai
See, it's funny, the rewards don't factor into my joy. Mine is that it's trackable. And because of that, I found I actually do things with the money that give me more long term joy if I track it. If I don't, I blow it on stuff that gives me short term joy, which not that great. Jesse, how about you?
- [15:09]
Jesse Kramer
I am definitely an always use credit card person.
- [15:12]
Joe Salcihai
Always credit card.
- [15:13]
Jesse Kramer
There's a few situations in life where the staff force you to pay in singles, but other than that, I am always a credit Card person, they take Venmo.
- [15:20]
Paula Pant
That's unfortunate.
- [15:22]
Doug
That is slowly changing, by the way. But you're right, you're right.
- [15:25]
Jesse Kramer
Sometimes there's a QR code tattoo right there. But usually so many experts in this.
- [15:29]
Joe Salcihai
Area, I don't know if that's creepy.
- [15:32]
OG
The other day I was talking to Doug's mom about this very issue. Just like, I'll take Apple pay.
- [15:39]
Joe Salcihai
Oh, youtubers. I'd love to hear where, where you guys come down on this too. So don't, don't leave us hanging. Go ahead and comment as well. Get in on this. OG Credit card or cash?
- [15:50]
OG
Credit card times a thousand. And mine has nothing to do with points or trackability.
- [15:55]
Joe Salcihai
That's funny.
- [15:56]
OG
Safe out. Because I was just thinking about this. We had a storm come through a month or two ago. We have an arbor in our backyard and it has a cover on it. So it like extends, you know, the usability of it if it's raining and helps block some sunlight. And the wind was so strong it ripped off a portion of this arbor cover. And it's un savable, salvageable anyway. I can't, I have to build a new one if I want. I can't just even replace the one section. But it got me thinking about the time I did this when I built the thing to begin with. And I've talked about this on the show before, but the construction company who built it did a terrible job. And I worked with the company. I said, hey, you know, this isn't good. Come back out. And they came out three or four times. Finally the owner called and he says, I'm not coming out to your house again. It is how it is. And I said, okay. And I called American Express and I said, yeah, they didn't do the thing that they said they were gonna do. And they went, no problem, sir. Gone. The whole cost of it was refunded by Amex. And they, you know, Amex dealt with it. They're like, what did you do? How did you try to resolve this issue? And, you know, it's a pretty pricey thing. I don't know, 4 or $5,000 of a charge. I can pay 3% transaction costs till the cows come home and the ability to make problems go away if I can have another big company in my corner, so to speak. So credit cards times a thousand. And I take my Aurora points, Paula, in Amazon gift cards because I'm an idiot. But, you know.
- [17:25]
Joe Salcihai
Story from a past show.
- [17:26]
Paula Pant
We can work on that.
- [17:28]
OG
We can work with that.
- [17:28]
Paula Pant
We can work on that.
- [17:30]
Joe Salcihai
We can upgrade that. Yes, absolutely. How many points do you get for. What's the name of the specialist?
- [17:37]
Paula Pant
Oh, the oncologist.
- [17:38]
Joe Salcihai
How many reward points do you get from it? Don't get me wrong. There's nothing rewarding about that experience. But I gotta imagine, Paul, there's a lot of reward.
- [17:44]
OG
At least it's a free flight.
- [17:45]
Paula Pant
Well, you know, it's funny because when I came back, because I was in Panama the first time that she got hospitalized, and I was FaceTiming with the veterinarian, with her primary care vet from Panama. And so when I came back, I then, like, had to pay the big bill. But of course, the veterinarians all knew that I was overseas, so they were actually joking with me when I paid. They were like, well, hey, this will give you the miles for your next trip.
- [18:08]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah.
- [18:09]
OG
You're like, not a joking matter. Too soon. Too soon, Doc.
- [18:12]
Joe Salcihai
That's exactly what I was thinking. Not funny. Doug, how about you? Credit or cash?
- [18:20]
Doug
Yeah, always credit. You guys taught me that. I think you did, Joe. A long, long time ago. Because we were. This was probably back in the early 2010s, and it was, hey, we're going to use our debit card because we just. We don't want to work, you know, build up a debt. And you said, but. But that just means you're. That's great. You're managing your spending so that you can pay only, you know, spend what you can pay for in cash. But if you know you're going to pay it off, then just get the points. Why give up that. That amount of. Of return? We get cash. I use a Costco card. Because points don't. We don't travel that much. Points on airlines and stuff just don't have as much value for me. I'm getting like 1500 bucks a year back for cash. They hand me a big waddock, literally cash. Because it's too big for their gift cards or something. So I have to. They make me go to the manager's table, and they're just, like, slapping hundies down on the table.
- [19:14]
OG
They're like, coming in, everybody.
- [19:16]
Doug
Exactly.
- [19:17]
OG
Or the back corner, they move the velvet rope and you get to walk through.
- [19:20]
Joe Salcihai
And everybody's like, the guy's got money, too.
- [19:22]
Doug
Who's going with this guy? What's his customer of the month? Six years running. And, yeah, it's. It's fantastic. And then when I do have to spend cash, I've got plenty for that.
- [19:32]
Joe Salcihai
All right, next one up. Financial freedom at 50 or luxury lifestyle until you're 70. Financial freedom early or luxury lifestyle until you're 70, and then the luxury is gone, gone, gone. Jesse, what do you think, man?
- [19:50]
Jesse Kramer
I'm taking financial freedom at 50. There aren't too many things in my lifestyle that I feel I need to be luxurious on, so I'll just take financial freedom at 50 and live my solid lifestyle and be pretty content with that.
- [20:04]
Paula Pant
Paula, can I ask a clarifying question? Are we talking early retirement at 50 or we just mean, like, options optionality?
- [20:15]
Joe Salcihai
We're talking fire. Financial independence. Retire early at 50.
- [20:21]
Paula Pant
Okay, but we're talking. It doesn't answer my question. So we're talking the fi part or the re part?
- [20:27]
Joe Salcihai
We're talking the fi part. Let's talk the fi part.
- [20:30]
Paula Pant
Okay. Just the fi part. Fi by 50 for sure.
- [20:32]
Joe Salcihai
Okay. Give up a little bit, but be financially independent. Yes. Oh, gee. How about you?
- [20:38]
OG
I also have a clarifying question. So at 70, I'm completely out of money or.
- [20:43]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, downshift big time. Because it's rice and beans from 70 on.
- [20:49]
OG
From 70 on. Okay, second qualifying question. What if all the Lifestyle up to 50 is also super luxurious, Therefore my phi number is monstrous at 50? Because then I pick 50. Like, who's. Who's deciding what this fire thing is? Because, I mean, honestly, it's all in.
- [21:10]
Joe Salcihai
The eyes of a holder thing we talked about with Jonathan Clements and when Wes Moss was here, which was grind it out till 50 and then financial independence or party hard early. But this is party till 70. I mean, this is. This is good.
- [21:24]
OG
I mean, I'm taking the 50, but in the context of whatever I believe is fire at 50, then sure. Obviously.
- [21:33]
Joe Salcihai
All right, Doug.
- [21:35]
Doug
Well, I mean, luxury for me is a day's in. So I'm good with fire at 50. Absolutely. I'm living it right now. It's fantastic.
- [21:44]
Joe Salcihai
Well, and this is actually an interesting side discussion because as Cheryl and I were on a walk a couple days ago, and I'm like, there are things now that I think are really fun that I didn't even consider before. And I realized that. Fun. Jesse, it's almost about what you were talking about earlier, that there are things, you know, you. You like the way you live now. I was thinking that when I was a kid, we went camping all the time, and it never occurred to me we went camping because we didn't have much money. We just love camping. Now. I never go camping because I would rather sleep in a hotel yet if I had the opportunity, if somebody asked me to go camping, I'm not adverse to it. But now staying at a really nice hotel, which we could have never afforded when I was young, is now something that I will sometimes choose to do.
- [22:33]
Jesse Kramer
Joe, are you familiar with the term glamping? Have you heard of this?
- [22:36]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. It looks like so much fun, doesn't it? Paula's on board. Look at that.
- [22:40]
Jesse Kramer
This might be your solution right here. You know, you can. You can get back to your childhood roots of spending time in the woods, but still get the pampered experience that your soft underbelly is now used.
- [22:50]
OG
A Westin bed and a hot tub.
- [22:52]
Jesse Kramer
It could be the best of both worlds.
- [22:53]
Paula Pant
And you can go glamping in the middle of New York City.
- [22:57]
Joe Salcihai
Are you kidding me?
- [22:58]
Paula Pant
Yeah. No, seriously, there's glamping in New York City on.
- [23:01]
Doug
Is that what they call the unhoused now?
- [23:07]
Joe Salcihai
That is so wrong.
- [23:09]
Paula Pant
No, no, it's for people who also have apartments. It's either Roosevelt island or Governor's Island. It's one of the two islands, but it's like the island in between Manhattan and Brooklyn or Manhattan and Queen, you know, so you get views of the skyline and you're. You're glamping in a tent.
- [23:25]
Joe Salcihai
Wow.
- [23:26]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [23:27]
Joe Salcihai
I do think, though, that there are things that I just didn't consider, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know if I'd like those or not. I just don't consider it because I don't have the money, you know, and as life changes, you just what, what turns you on kind of fits the bill. It occurred to me that, that a lot of what people love has to do a little bit with your wallet, you know, which I think goes back to whether you just show up happy or not. You know, it isn't always about the money. It's just whether I show up to my life happy on a daily basis. All these people that say I'm going to be happy when. When I could be happy camping, I could be happy on a high end hotel, I could be happy we're glamping in New York City, whatever it might be. All right, let's do one more before we get to the big competition. In the middle of today's show, we were talking about credit cards. Let's do this one. Ignore your credit score or obsess over it. Which one? Give high credit score, make you feel way better or just ignoring it? This is not about numbers or facts and about what makes you feel better. Doug, I think that you are a guy that appreciates having a very high credit score.
- [24:32]
Doug
Yeah. But I'm not obsessing over it.
- [24:34]
Joe Salcihai
It makes you happier to ignore the credit score or does it make you happier that you have a high credit score?
- [24:39]
Doug
Well, no, I mean, so it. That it links to the last question because I'm. I know that I'm paying everything off. I'm debt free, and so I'm paying everything off every month. What do I. I know the score.
- [24:49]
Joe Salcihai
Is high, so ignore it. Ignore it makes you happier.
- [24:51]
Doug
Yeah.
- [24:52]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. Jesse, how about you?
- [24:54]
Jesse Kramer
Definitely in the ignore it camp. Definitely. Again, going back to the. The false dichotomy. But if. If these are my two choices, there's no way I'm going to obsess over my credit score. It's simply not consequential enough. I'd much rather ignore it if those are my.
- [25:09]
Joe Salcihai
Again, it's just. It's just the one that makes you happier.
- [25:11]
Jesse Kramer
Oh, yeah.
- [25:12]
Joe Salcihai
It is just the one that makes so it makes you happier ignoring it.
- [25:14]
Jesse Kramer
I don't know what my credit score is.
- [25:16]
Joe Salcihai
My credit score sucked for so long as you guys all know that I'm happier knowing that I have a high credit score now. I am. I wake up every time I see my credit score. You know, you log into your. Your credit card and they have the thing that shows your credit score just when you log in there as a service. They do. That gives me a warm fuzzy now knowing that I was able to turn that battleship around. Oh, gee. How about you?
- [25:40]
OG
Yeah, I'm. I'm in the credit score knowing game. Absolutely. It's just tied to too many things. Like, it's, you know, it's tied to your insurance costs, it's tied to interest rate costs on other products, and it's just. Yeah, I, I know what it is.
- [25:55]
Doug
Take care of the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves. OG.
- [25:58]
Joe Salcihai
Yes.
- [25:58]
OG
And I will throw a little shade to Doug because about the. I don't pay attention to it. I'm pretty sure that I've seen Doug text me pictures of his credit score from. From Citibank. Dude.
- [26:10]
Joe Salcihai
Dude.
- [26:10]
OG
8. 49. What's up? I'm like, I mean, good job, buddy.
- [26:15]
Joe Salcihai
That Tammy's German judge didn't give me a perfect score.
- [26:18]
Doug
I will. Exactly. That's a. That's a good one, Joe. No, there was. I did do that, and it was because I was super annoyed after we paid off the house. Had every. We were just totally paid off. Everything, cars, houses, everything was paid off and it went down. That's when I'm like, I sent the picture and I'm like wtf? How does this make sense all the.
- [26:37]
OG
Way down to 8:25. What is happening?
- [26:39]
Doug
Yeah.
- [26:40]
Joe Salcihai
Back to by the way, whether you use credit cards or cash, B joined in. I missed this earlier. B using credit cards, rewards also. So I think we were unanimous on credit card versus cash. And so all of us anti Dave Ramsey apparently. Paula, we got two on one side of this. Two on two love the credit score. Two love ignoring it. Which one makes you happier?
- [26:59]
Paula Pant
You know, I used to love knowing my credit score and over time I have shifted towards ignoring it. So now I am in camp ignore it.
- [27:08]
Joe Salcihai
I think that's a healthier place to be actually. But I think, man, I'm just so happy knowing that that's a nice number and I can go get myself in debt trouble again anytime I want to. It's like a day by day lifestyle. Not doing that. All right, we're going to do some spicier ones in the second half. You think those are good? Which one makes you happy? Part two coming up in just a minute. But at the halfway point of every stacking Benjamin's Friday episode, we have this year long competition between our three contributors and Paula Pant. You have been gone for a few weeks.
- [27:43]
Paula Pant
I've been gone. Yeah.
- [27:44]
Joe Salcihai
You, you ready for the score, Paula?
- [27:46]
Paula Pant
Oh yeah. Let's hear it. Let's hear it.
- [27:48]
Joe Salcihai
Oh gee. Has five, Jesse has three and a half. Paula Pant has four and a half.
- [27:55]
OG
What?
- [27:56]
Joe Salcihai
Everybody has won on your behalf since you've been God. Wow.
- [28:02]
Paula Pant
I, I need to leave more often.
- [28:04]
Doug
Paul is about to say let's have B play for me.
- [28:07]
Joe Salcihai
Now listen, Mays has won on your behalf, Sandy Smith won on your behalf and DOC G1 on your behalf. So you've got to thank all three of those people.
- [28:17]
Paula Pant
It takes a village.
- [28:20]
Joe Salcihai
Paula's like I gotta leave more often. Panama calls again, but she's here this time. Can Paula actually be part of her own winning scenario?
- [28:31]
Doug
Wow.
- [28:31]
Joe Salcihai
Can Jesse make it 4 and a half? 4 and a half 5. Can OG pull back ahead again and start pulling away again as we get closer to the summer months? Well, we need a question, Doug. High tension today on the Stacky Benjamin show. What are we talking about?
- [28:52]
Doug
Hey there stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor Doug and this flight is is halfway through but please return to your seats and stow your seat back trays because it's about to get a little bumpy. Here comes today's trivia question. When was the first in flight meal served on an airplane and before you say anything, Paula, the answer is not breakfast. I'll be. We're looking for a year, not the time of day.
- [29:21]
Joe Salcihai
I'll be.
- [29:21]
Doug
I'll be back right after I go see if they've got more of those little Biscoff cookies in the back.
- [29:27]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, and, Doug, specifically to just quote the movie, this is not what we're looking for. This is a scene from Miss Congeniality. Describe your perfect date. I'd have to say April 25, because it's not too hot, not too cold. All you need is a light jacket. We're not looking for that. We're not looking. We're not looking for breakfast. Oh, gee, you got to go first. Still barely. This is BS first flight, in flight, meal.
- [30:05]
OG
Okay, so Wright brothers were what, 19? And I should know this. I feel like I should know it.
- [30:13]
Joe Salcihai
I think it's like 87.
- [30:15]
OG
1984, 1911, maybe something around there. 1914. Figure the airplane business took off pretty quick. I know commercial travel was very pop. Commercial travel was super popular by, like, the 1940s. Obviously, lots of flying in World War II. And one. I'm going to say slightly after Wilbur and Kitty Hawk. Grandpa was born in 1919. I'm saying Grandpa's birthday. 19, 19.
- [30:51]
Joe Salcihai
1919.
- [30:52]
OG
Grandpa was actually born 9, 9, 19 19. But I'm not going to be that specific.
- [30:58]
Joe Salcihai
9, 9. Wouldn't that be wild if it was 9, 9, 19, 19? Who's next? Paula? You're. You're next.
- [31:05]
Paula Pant
That's weird. That is so weird. I'm used to having to figure out how to. How to place myself between two.
- [31:14]
Doug
Now you actually have to think and come up with a number, not just game. The other two answers.
- [31:19]
Paula Pant
Maybe I'll do better being in.
- [31:21]
Joe Salcihai
I was gonna say Doug. It wasn't working anyway, Paula, so.
- [31:26]
Paula Pant
All right, so I think that the Wright brothers flight was in the 1920s sometime.
- [31:33]
OG
Maybe that's when it was. Maybe I was way off.
- [31:35]
Paula Pant
They were from Dayton, Ohio, which is why Ohio is the birthplace of aviation. Kitty Hawk, obviously. North Carolina. First in flight. Yeah, I'm going to say that that will happen sometime in the 1920s. And I'm also going to say that commercial aviation. When was Pan Am really big? That was like, you know, Pan Am and TWA, like, that was like the 1950s, 1960s. I'm going to say night. Oh, all right. Hold on.
- [32:06]
Doug
Can I just tell her the answer so she'll stop?
- [32:11]
Joe Salcihai
We want you to win, Paula, but not at all costs.
- [32:14]
Paula Pant
I'm gonna say it was after World War II. So I'm going to guess 1949.
- [32:22]
Joe Salcihai
49. Feels like we've made it to 2049 as long as it took you and OG to answer that question. Jesse, you're in this weird spot of going last, my friend. You got 1919 and 1940. 49.
- [32:37]
OG
Yeah.
- [32:38]
Jesse Kramer
I'm caught between two minds. I actually know Wright Brothers flight. I think it was 1903, which is kind of crazy. So I'm going to take the under on OG and I'm going to say September 8, 1919, aka 1918 I think.
- [32:58]
Joe Salcihai
Is what you're saying.
- [32:59]
Jesse Kramer
I don't know.
- [33:00]
OG
I don't know. I said I wasn't picking a date.
- [33:02]
Joe Salcihai
I'm just not going to get specific about your year.
- [33:04]
Jesse Kramer
Only 1918 then 1918.
- [33:07]
Joe Salcihai
All right, we got 1918, 1919 and Paul at 1949. We're going to see who's right. We'll be right back. Small Business Owners State Farms there with small business insurance to fit your specific needs. Whether you're starting a new venture or growing an existing one, State Farm helps you choose the right coverage to protect what matters most. Working with a local State Farm agent helps you understand your coverage options. Offering local support to help you achieve your goals. Focus on turning your passion into a thriving business. Knowing your insurance can change as your business grows. Stay Farm here to help you succeed with your business. Like a good neighbor, Stay Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. Not everyone is careful with your personal information, which might explain why there's a victim of identity theft every five seconds in the U.S. fortunately, there's LifeLock.
- [34:02]
Jesse Kramer
LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data.
- [34:04]
Joe Salcihai
Points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year by visiting lifelock.com podcast terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Enterprise Mobility. From fleet management to flexible truck rentals to technology solutions, Enterprise Mobility helps businesses find the right mobility solutions so they can find new opportunities. Because if your business is on the road, they want to make sure it's.
- [34:37]
Paula Pant
On the road to success.
- [34:38]
Joe Salcihai
Enterprise Mobility moving you moves the world. Find your road@enterprise mobility.com all right. Oh gee. You began this question by answering 1919. How are you feeling now?
- [34:54]
OG
I felt really good when I thought it was 1914 that the Wright brothers were because I figured it was just a few years after it. But now that I have been so advised that it was 1903, I feel like I am way, way Off.
- [35:10]
Joe Salcihai
But the question wasn't about that. It was.
- [35:12]
OG
Paul is way, way, way off.
- [35:13]
Joe Salcihai
So I feel in flight meals and Paula.
- [35:17]
OG
But I mean the Wright brothers bring a sandwich. Like did they, you know, were they pedaling and the plane was going and then do you see the two of.
- [35:24]
Joe Salcihai
Them and their flight attendant?
- [35:26]
OG
No, I just.
- [35:27]
Joe Salcihai
They went what, 38.
- [35:28]
OG
I was going to hit us with something really s like 48 in World War I, you know, the first recorded sandwich was eaten or something. Silly.
- [35:36]
Joe Salcihai
Paulie, feeling good.
- [35:38]
Paula Pant
Regardless of what OG Says, I've got the whole upside. I mean, I feel good about capturing so much of the map.
- [35:45]
Joe Salcihai
And Jesse, that means also if it was 1728, you've got it because you took the under 1918 and feeling good.
- [35:52]
Jesse Kramer
Correct. There was a, there was a biplane in one of the Crusades. So if they ate on that plane, then I'm good.
- [35:59]
Joe Salcihai
True story. Maybe. Probably not. All right, OG Paula, Jesse, who's got this one right? Doug, you've got the answer, man.
- [36:13]
Doug
Hey there, stackers. I'm cookie lover and the guy who's just upgraded your personal finance experience to first class, Joe's box neighbor, Doug. Ah, in flight meals, it's truly incredible how much we bitch about the food they give us on airplanes. 25,000ft above the ground in a tube soaring like a bird while we're magically transported to other parts of the globe. But yeah, let's complain about a $13 sandwich. Can you people not be satisfied? Today's question. When was the first in flight meal served on a co commercial airplane ride? Many of you might have been thinking hot meal that like the mile High club came much later. But a cold sandwich was served. Not December 17, 1903, when the Wright Brothers first flew. But it was 30 years before Paula's Guests of 1949 and one year after Jesse's Guest.
- [37:10]
Joe Salcihai
Can you believe it?
- [37:11]
Doug
Zero years after the son of Perdition, the prince of darkness. Oh, geez. Guess because the correct answer is 1919. Damn it.
- [37:26]
Joe Salcihai
Oh, so good. Wow. So, so, so did you just pick.
- [37:31]
OG
1918, Kramer, because you knew it was 1919 or did you just pick.
- [37:36]
Jesse Kramer
I just assumed if planes had been around for 16 years that someone would have eaten food on a plane before 1990.
- [37:43]
OG
Yeah, I would have agreed with you if I would have known 1903. I would have picked 1905.
- [37:48]
Jesse Kramer
Right, right.
- [37:50]
Joe Salcihai
We've got a nice group of people hanging out with us on YouTube as we make the show at our normal time, which is Wednesdays around 4pm Eastern Time. That would be 1pm Pacific if you want to join us in the future.
- [38:03]
OG
1:00Pm Soph is here with us and.
- [38:06]
Joe Salcihai
Just asked what's the lowest credit score? I need to afford to buy a jet. Talking about credit scores. Oh gee, what's. Do you have any?
- [38:13]
OG
That is a cash purchase.
- [38:19]
Joe Salcihai
And so false. It says I hate airplane food. Which we got to that. Shane likes to ignore his credit score. And Andrea voted for financial freedom over luxury till age 70. B also likes financial freedom. Carlos wants to know though, Paula, before you get back into it, why you mentioned kind of flippantly that you don't recommend cash back cards. Why don't you like cash back?
- [38:42]
Paula Pant
Because if you think about the dollar value of the type of reward that you're getting, generally speaking, cash back will give you the lowest value of reward. So for example, if you get points, which you can then transfer to miles or to either to airline miles or to hotel stays, oftentimes when you actually make the conversion as to what is the monetary value of that point, that point is worth, you know, at the bottom two cents. It could go, depending on how you redeem it, all the way up to $0.04 or $0.05 versus if you get cash back, you might be getting, let's say 1%. Right. Or one and a half percent. And so the value per dollar spent is lowest on cash back.
- [39:24]
Joe Salcihai
There we go. You guys ready for part two?
- [39:29]
OG
It's weird. Like ant scene.
- [39:32]
Joe Salcihai
Here we go.
- [39:32]
Paula Pant
Drop the mic.
- [39:33]
OG
I know.
- [39:34]
Joe Salcihai
What do you say after that?
- [39:35]
OG
I feel like an idiot for my Amazon gift cards now. Thanks, Paula.
- [39:38]
Doug
I mean, I could, if I were to say anything, I would just be reiterating what I already said, which is, Paula, the math works, but only if that has value for you. I don't. Yeah, I don't travel. So even though I'm getting more. Plus they can change Costco.
- [39:53]
OG
Cash is a better percent though, right? Isn't it, Doug?
- [39:55]
Doug
Well, they've got a whole tiered thing. It's like 5% on gas and 4% on in store purchases and restaurants and 2% on everything else.
- [40:04]
OG
You should do that. You should figure out what the payout is like. Just look through your statements and figure out how much because it's probably greater than one if you're.
- [40:12]
Doug
It averages out to probably three and a half somewhere in the middle of that, depending on the volume I have of each of those different types of purchases. But Paula, we just talked about this on a show maybe a couple of weeks ago, Joe, a week and a half ago, where I think OG Pointed Out. The value of those points is highly volatile. I made the joke. It's like a South American currency because your, your room at the hotel might have cost 20,000 points last year, and this year it's 35.
- [40:39]
Paula Pant
Oh, yeah, there's. There's definitely point inflation, like. Absolutely.
- [40:43]
Joe Salcihai
So spend them.
- [40:44]
Paula Pant
Spend them. Yeah, spend them as soon as you get them.
- [40:46]
Joe Salcihai
Cheryl and I took little.
- [40:47]
Doug
Hold on, wait. I just. Mic dropped and nobody's recognizing that. I just, I just dunked on Paula pant and I'm getting nothing.
- [40:56]
Joe Salcihai
Cheryl and I took little stickers to do that on the other way to make sure we get the biggest point. We use the biggest point value card for that type of purchase, you know, because some are X times points on gasoline, others on groceries, others on flights, whatever. And so we put little stickers to remember which card is which. So when we're doing that transaction, we know to go to go to that card. All right, here. Let's get a little spicy. You've got some money, Jesse Kramer, sitting in cash, but it's money that you don't need right now. Which one makes you happier? Invest it in crypto or leave it in cash?
- [41:36]
Jesse Kramer
Leave it in cash.
- [41:38]
Joe Salcihai
Leave it in cash. Makes you. Makes you happier.
- [41:40]
Jesse Kramer
How come I'm not sure if I want to put more money into crypto. That's probably the main reason why.
- [41:46]
Joe Salcihai
Because you already got 99% of your portfolio in crypto.
- [41:49]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah. Right. Full disclosure, I do own a little bit, but I also. And this is my admission. This is my confession. Was that an Usher song? I think this is my confession. This is my confession, which is I consistently flip flop between whether Charlie Munger was right and that crypto is rat poison or that there's this amazing future to kind of scares me. So for that reason, I think that I don't necessarily need to take the bat off my shoulder and take extra swings at pitches that I'm not sure will end up being hits. So I'd rather leave that money.
- [42:19]
Doug
Oh, my God. I think we just became best friends, Jesse.
- [42:23]
Jesse Kramer
Hey.
- [42:24]
Doug
Wow. We've answered all the questions the same, and now he's using a at bat analogy. I'm all worked up over here.
- [42:31]
Joe Salcihai
Well, this is Doug's confession. Doug's got a confession for you, Jesse.
- [42:34]
Jesse Kramer
Come on out of that closet, Doug.
- [42:37]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, Paula. Leave it in cash or invest it in crypto. Don't need it for anything.
- [42:40]
Paula Pant
Leave it in cash.
- [42:42]
Joe Salcihai
Leave it in cash. I thought you'd say crypto.
- [42:45]
Paula Pant
No, I'm team. Leave it in cash. Because if you leave it in cash. So I have a barbell allocation. I have cash and I have equities. I don't have bonds. And if you leave money in cash, that means that you have the ability to put more. Also on the other side of that barbell, put more money in equities. And if you do want to invest in crypto, there are equities that you can purchase that reflect the crypto market. So there's that one stock, I forget what the name of the stock is.
- [43:11]
Doug
MicroStrategy.
- [43:12]
Paula Pant
MicroStrategy, yeah. Right. So MicroStrategy is often viewed as a analog, sort of as an analog to crypto. So keep money in cash and then if you want crypto, quote, unquote exposure, okay, buy a few shares of MicroStrategy.
- [43:30]
Joe Salcihai
Oh my goodness. Everybody online is cash, cash, cash, cash. Sofa actually says cash is going to the moon. Like diamond hands with my cash. That's great. All right, O.G. how about you, man? Crypto or cash?
- [43:47]
OG
Well, yeah, cash. I'm like, Jesse, I've got some Bitcoin and Ethereum and I think 65 million, something that's worth like 0.000 cents just in case it turns to a dollar. I also share a similar sentiment that I can't exactly figure out what's going to happen. I was talking about this with somebody the other day and I thought, and we were talking about it becoming currency. They're like, oh, what if it's currency? I said, well, then it will stop being volatile. I mean, the dollar moves against euro a little bit, right? It's like, oh my gosh, it's down 4%. That's crazy.
- [44:20]
Joe Salcihai
But not the way bitcoin moves now.
- [44:22]
OG
Yeah, these 50% spikes. If all of a sudden there's. I mean, setting aside for a second that it literally would take an act of Congress, but I don't see a scenario in our lifetime where the US just willingly goes, yeah, everybody else can use bitcoin, that's fine, let's give up the dollar standard. That doesn't seem like a good strategy for our country. And then even if it did, and I get the idea that it's infinitely divisible and whatever, but then it's just like having a dollar bill. Then to me it would be like, oh, I'm going to Europe, I should bring some euros so I have some cash. Oh, I'm going to Argentina. I should bring some Bitcoin, because that's what they use. You know, you just, you would use it interchangeably at that point. It ceases being, you know, an investment and just becomes more of like an arbitrage opportunity. Or, you know, you're gonna buy a, you're gonna buy a condo in Spain. You're probably gonna pay for it in euros. It's just easier to do than trying to do it in dollars. So I don't know. Anyway, to answer your question, cash.
- [45:16]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. B, Hanging out online says crypto is tulip bulbs. And that's. I love your point, OG because I don't know, part of me thinks it might be tulip bulbs going back to the Dutch tulip thing, but part of me thinks, well, wouldn't have been tulip bulbs already. And it hasn't been. Yeah, you know, it's been how long? I was laughing at my brother in law back when crypto was worth, you know, 1/100th of what it's worth now. And he's lapped me around the bank like a hundred times. Well, I'm like, really? You're gonna buy this stuff? That joke was on me. So who knows? I'd. I don't know. Jesse.
- [45:47]
Jesse Kramer
You know, I just have a funny story because this, this is a friend of mine, a reader of my blog, listener of my podcast. Have you guys heard of this is Real Fart Coin? It's the newest meme coin. I'm dead serious. It's called Fartcoin.
- [45:58]
Joe Salcihai
Is it f or pH?
- [45:59]
Jesse Kramer
I think it's f. It's as stupid as it sounds. And he recently made like $5,000. This is a person I know made like five grand on FartCoin. And just so we're all on the same page, the only way that anyone makes money on something called fartcoin is, is because other people are dumping money in and you're pulling your money out. Right. There's no like intrinsic value being created there like in a stock or in the economy. It really is just who's the last person holding the bag? And so I don't know, do bitcoin.
- [46:26]
OG
Or gorilla posters or something or whatever.
- [46:28]
Joe Salcihai
They were exactly going back to the earlier NFTs. Oh my God.
- [46:34]
Jesse Kramer
And so it's like, I don't know, do the other coins. Does anything out there have an actual use case that's going to give it a value other than someone coming in later and paying more than you paid? I mean, that's the trillion dollar question. Also, what you were saying, Paul. A microstrategy. I was just looking it up because I was curious myself. They hold a lot of bitcoin on their balance sheet. Like they are a pseudo like bitcoin treasury, and the company is valued at $100 billion. They have 33 billion of Bitcoin on their balance sheet right now. Just for anyone listening, it's pretty crazy.
- [47:04]
Joe Salcihai
I think we got to come up with some names around fart coin. Like, when you're buying it, like, are you farting when you buy it? I got a fart, which means I'm going to buy more.
- [47:12]
Doug
If you haven't heard of it, it's because it's silent but deadly.
- [47:18]
Joe Salcihai
I'm hanging on to some of those haktua coins, you know, haktua person coins, thinking that might come back.
- [47:23]
Jesse Kramer
I mean, the market cap of Fartcoin right now is 1.19 billion. What kind of world are we living in? Fartcoin, it was created in October of 2024, and here we are. There's a billion people have put a billion dollars into this thing. Unreal.
- [47:38]
Joe Salcihai
All right, let's do a couple more of these guys. This one, it's important to remember which one makes you happier? Does it make you happier investing in index funds or happier with individual stocks? Paula, which one makes you happier?
- [47:53]
Paula Pant
Okay, if the question is happier in terms of the dopamine spike, individual stocks. Because I like the experience of being proven right when it goes well and when it doesn't, I tend to just kind of gloss over it and focus on the wins. So it's the opposite of negativity bias.
- [48:12]
Joe Salcihai
That's fabulous. Oh, gee. How about you in individual stocks as well? Or index funds?
- [48:18]
OG
No ETFs. I spend so little time looking at my individual portfolio, I can't even. There's so little emotion. In fact, it's to the point now where I log in so infrequently that I remember whatever number I remember seeing before. And I go, oh, wow, look at that. Like, and, you know, it's contributions and, you know, that sort of thing. And either I go, wow, look at that, because it's great, or I go, wow, look at that because it sucked. And I looked on April 8, but. But I just, like, I just have this kind of quasi memory of about how much money I had in that account. And I'll glance and I'll go, huh, who knew? Yeah, there's no. I don't. I don't get any. Any hit off of portfolio value anymore. Sorry.
- [49:00]
Joe Salcihai
All right, Jesse, this is a flex.
- [49:02]
Jesse Kramer
Right there from OG no, it's not.
- [49:05]
OG
I mean, when you have 10 bucks and it turns to 15, you're like, dude, this is awesome.
- [49:09]
Jesse Kramer
Fair Enough. Fair enough. I'm with you, though, OG I'm index for this answer. And the main reason why is it's kind of the opposite of what Paula said. For me, if I were to own an individual stock, if I were to see, like, oh, this index Fund is up 12% this year, and this individual stock I thought would be really hot is actually down 20%, like, that frustration would just gnaw at me. And so I'd rather not deal with it in the first place. And I'd be teenagers.
- [49:33]
OG
I made so many mistakes on individual stocks. I've made some great wins also, but I only. It's true. I was at Morgan Housel, who had this in his book, losing feels twice as bad as winning feels good. Just the pain of losing that, you know, when I go, yeah, this is so stupid. I should have just had this in a stupid ETF and been done with it.
- [49:53]
Joe Salcihai
It is so funny, guys, because I'm team Paul on this one. Individual stocks makes me way happier. Way happier. Just when I look at them, lemonade.
- [50:01]
OG
Doing or whatever, I'm emotionally invested.
- [50:03]
Joe Salcihai
Not good. Let's not talk about it.
- [50:08]
OG
Wait. I remember the highs that you were having. You were so excited about it.
- [50:11]
Joe Salcihai
But it makes me happier owning it. I see it and I go, oh, yeah, Lumen. Yeah, look at that.
- [50:18]
Doug
I learned this lesson shortly out of college. My brothers and I were at a trip on the other end of Lake Tahoe from where Og and I went skiing this past winter. We were in North Tahoe, and we at the casinos, and I'm the youngest brother. I'm watching my older brothers try to bet at the roulette table. I like Black 17. They're losing their shirts. And I'm young kid. I'm not again. Never had been a gambler, and I'm just betting red and black. And I walked away from that table with 400 bucks. And I think that's kind of analogous to, you know, mutual funds versus individual stocks.
- [50:52]
OG
The difference is exactly the same.
- [50:53]
Doug
When you hit on an individual stock, your older brothers don't have to know about it and can't make you buy dinner that night. Oh, no, they spent all my money.
- [51:04]
Joe Salcihai
Oh, it wouldn't be a stacker party online if we weren't still stuck on the fart coin, guys. So Soph says fartcoin sounds like a shitty investment. Adam calls it a layup comment. Andrea says hot air more likely. Seems bloated to me. Eric mentions never trust a fart. And then we get into Rocky's all about individual stocks be likes ETFs. Andre likes ETFs. And then Soph says that was Socrates before Morgan Housel. That may have said that as well. All right, last one of this one again, which. What makes you happier? We talked about this on Monday's show, but we didn't talk about happiness. We talked about order of operations. Max out your retirement or get those student loans paid off. You've got student loans, so you can't do both. Which one makes you happier, Jesse? Which one makes you happier?
- [52:02]
Jesse Kramer
Max out retirement.
- [52:04]
Joe Salcihai
It does leave the student loans alone.
- [52:05]
Jesse Kramer
Yep. That would. Again, just going back to my own history based on the. Well, first off, I'm just totally clouded by this. Right. Because I was trying to attempt both or trying to figure out which to prioritize in my own 20s. That's how I got involved in this whole personal finance content to begin with. But as I was maxing out my retirement Starting in like 2013, 2014, it happened to coincide with one of the best bull markets in history. So I've got all these great happy feelings for maxing out my retirement. And my loans were at like four and a half, five percent on aver. Right. And so knowing what we know now about the way the last 10 years have played out, like, of course maxing out my retirement ended up being the better thing, but still, if I was given the same choice today, I would max out my retirement and feel happy about it.
- [52:46]
Joe Salcihai
You see these, these studies of millennials that came out of college or out of high school in 2007, 2008, who still have trouble investing, Jesse. Because of the fact that they saw so many people struggle. Like, you literally see that you got this exact opposite messaging.
- [53:02]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah. It is crazy. I actually saw something. Speaking of that, Joe, there's. I saw something recently that talked about millennials views of the stock market. And it is because. Right. Each generation is what, a 15 year span. And millennials were born from what, I think 80 to 95ish.
- [53:17]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [53:18]
Jesse Kramer
Right. So those born in 80. Can I do my math?
- [53:22]
Joe Salcihai
Right.
- [53:22]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah. They would have been maybe in their 20s, in the early 2000s, and would have kind of like lived through that lost decade. There are a lot of older millennials. Yeah, A lot of older millennials do not trust, do not like the stock market, have a lot of negative.
- [53:33]
Joe Salcihai
Well, and also think about the real estate market. You're 27 years old. Maybe you'd finally cobble together enough money for your first down payment, maybe. And you just did it. And then housing prices go through the Floor.
- [53:45]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah. Oh, right, right.
- [53:48]
OG
That's that T shirt.
- [53:49]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah. Oh, gee. Which one makes you happier? Paying off the student loans or 100%.
- [53:54]
OG
Investing versus any debt payoff? You know, I mean, it's fun to pay off debt. Like, I paid off a pretty sizable loan this quarter, and I was like, okay, that's cool. But I, you know, nothing. There was no, There was no, no joy received. The, the joy comes from the fact that I now have that loan payment to invest with.
- [54:15]
Doug
I was going to say, what about when you took that money that was going to the loan and you bought a new driver? Three wood and seven wood.
- [54:22]
OG
I mean, that provided a lot of joy.
- [54:24]
Doug
Yes.
- [54:25]
OG
I'm a consumptionist. The 7 one was just glorious yesterday.
- [54:31]
Joe Salcihai
Paula, we gonna keep this unanimous?
- [54:33]
Paula Pant
No. No. So the question is, which one makes you happier? Rather than which one would you advise?
- [54:38]
Joe Salcihai
Yes, exactly. Just which one's happier?
- [54:41]
Paula Pant
Yeah. Because, you know, at a cognitive, intellectual level, I totally understand and agree with Og and Jesse. Like, it makes way more sense to max out your retirement, but at a purely emotional level, much, much more joy paying off debt. Absolutely.
- [54:57]
Joe Salcihai
That's funny. I love paying off debt too, but I gotta say, investing makes me happier. Doug.
- [55:02]
Doug
Yeah, I'm with Paula on this because here's the thing. If I, if I had all that debt but was maxing out retirement, I would have to always do the math and subtract the debt and then the cost of that debt, you know, do the compound growth of that debt over time against my retirement, and I would never feel like I got there.
- [55:23]
OG
Nah, just invest. It'll all work out.
- [55:27]
Joe Salcihai
That's the way OG talks to all his clients. I think that's going to do it for today. I love this. This was super fun, guys. Not talking about what's smartest. What I think is a good lesson here is what makes us feel good isn't always the right choice. And so sometimes doing the right thing. Not exactly. Doug's 12 years old.
- [55:49]
OG
I would say so on that. Joe. I would say that quite often doing the thing that does feel the best is best for you, because in all likelihood, that's the thing you're going to stick with. If debt makes you uneasy and you're stressed about it, and that would provide a lot more comfort for you in your life, then, yeah, you should pay off the debt. No different than people who like my example on my house, right? Everybody's like, oh, two and a half percent mortgage. You got that for 30 years, right? Nope, I've got it for 15. And I'm paying extra. But there's a method to my madness. And you know, the math people are like, that's ridiculous. You should have got it for 30 and you should have a tiny mortgage payment and pay it for 30 years. That's the math way to do it. But not for our plan. That's not what works for us. So I don't know that the right answer is always the right answer. The right answer is what's right for you.
- [56:39]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, I think that's a great, great takeaway. And the stickiness factor, you can't deny. I love it when you know your own financial plan. It's. It's also the reason I don't like using rules of thumb is for that reason, if it applies to you, it's going to be something that you actually follow through with. All right, let's follow through from this show to our brilliant contributors shows. Paula, what's going on at the Afford Anything podcast?
- [57:01]
Paula Pant
Ooh, on the Afford Anything podcast, of course, every other episode ish, you and I answer questions and you actually make a cameo. On our first Friday episode, talking our.
- [57:11]
Joe Salcihai
Favorite thing, Paula, Tariffs, tariffs, tariffs and.
- [57:14]
Paula Pant
How to handle a volatile portfolio. Which I don't, I don't know if anyone's noticed, but the stock market has been a little volatile lately. So on the first Friday of every.
- [57:25]
Joe Salcihai
Month, we've been happy, though, and I don't know what it's going to be when people see this, but the volatility back up has been nice the past little bit of time. Who knows where it goes from here, but hopefully continues in that trend.
- [57:37]
Paula Pant
There's bull market, there's bear market. I heard somebody call it the kangaroo market because it's just bouncing, bouncing, bouncing.
- [57:43]
Joe Salcihai
I like that.
- [57:44]
Paula Pant
So the first Friday of every month, we do a monthly economic update. The the BLS always puts out their jobs report data on the first Friday of the month. So we always, we time it with the jobs report data and we talk about what's happening in the economy. And Joe just cameoed for the first time ever on a First Friday episode.
- [58:02]
Joe Salcihai
I'm taking over. Yeah, taking over Afford Anything. By the way, I heard that report's just a bunch of bls. Come on, Jesse Kramer, what's going on at the Personal Finance for Long Term Investors podcast?
- [58:16]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah, we just released an AMA episode, our seventh one. And then in a couple weeks, we got Don McDonald coming on the pod.
- [58:24]
Joe Salcihai
I think you're saying it wrong. You've got Don McDonald's coming on Don McDonald.
- [58:30]
Jesse Kramer
Don is stopping by the podcast There you go. Best voice in radio and podcasting. And then for any classic rock fans over at the Best Interest Blog just published a really fun article called Stocks Rock and Two blasting Speakers about my somewhat unwell neighbor growing up who used to play classic rock music really, really, really loud at all hours of the night. And speaking of the kangaroo market, the interesting lesson we can learn about today's kangaroo market from my somewhat erratic and unwell neighbor. So if that's the kind of thing that sounds interesting to read, maybe a little crazy, that's over at the Best Interest Blog.
- [59:05]
Joe Salcihai
All right, and OG what do you got going on this fine weekend?
- [59:09]
OG
This is the, this is the calm before the storm.
- [59:11]
Joe Salcihai
It is for me too.
- [59:12]
OG
Starting on Monday, they all start trickling in. Big graduation. All the parents and in laws and cousins and nephews and aunts and uncles and. And it's just the slow steady drip of everybody showing up over the next three or four days, culminating in our first high school graduate.
- [59:34]
Joe Salcihai
That's so exciting. Yeah, what an exciting time. Having a graduate in the house.
- [59:39]
OG
Having an adult.
- [59:40]
Joe Salcihai
That's wild.
- [59:40]
OG
A man as he likes to be called.
- [59:42]
Joe Salcihai
Paula, we're thinking about you and the cat and your oncologist Porsche 911 payment.
- [59:49]
Paula Pant
Yeah, exactly. She has a feeding tube too.
- [59:52]
Jesse Kramer
Oh, geez.
- [59:52]
Joe Salcihai
Man, man. Well, I don't know how to, how to transition that.
- [60:00]
Paula Pant
Well, still, speaking of feeding tubes, let's.
- [60:04]
Joe Salcihai
Feed it to Doug.
- [60:08]
Doug
That was halfway decent, actually.
- [60:09]
Paula Pant
That was actually pretty good. Yeah.
- [60:11]
Joe Salcihai
Speaking of, if I ever use speaking of feeding tubes as a transition, this show's gotta end, right? Glad it was you and not me. Doug, what are our big takeaways today?
- [60:22]
Doug
Well, first, consider listening to advice from someone who gave the wrong answer on saving versus earning. OG why would you rather earn more than save?
- [60:32]
OG
Because making mo money is awesome.
- [60:35]
Doug
Still got it wrong. Second, Jesse gave the correct answer on cash or crypto. Jesse, tell us again while you're leaving the bat on your shoulder and that sexy voice of yours.
- [60:45]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah, I'd rather be stacking the Benjamins.
- [60:48]
Doug
But the big lesson, definitely sit next to Joe's mom on your next flight, if possible. Flight attendants love this lady. And the whole row gets extra pretzels. That woman single handedly killing United's profit margins. But everyone's all smiles about it. It's amazing. Thanks to Jesse Kramer for joining us today. You'll find Jesse's show Personal finance for long term investors wherever you're listening to us now. We'll also include links in our show notes@stackingbenjamins.com thanks to Paula Pan for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fabulous podcast Ford Anything wherever you listen to finer podcasts. And finally, thanks to OG for joining us. Looking for good financial planning help, head to stackingbenjamins.comog for his calendar. This show is the property of SB Podcast, LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Josal Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome team@stackingbenjamins.com along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello.
- [62:00]
Joe Salcihai
Oh, yeah.
- [62:01]
Doug
And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show. Sam.
- [63:13]
Joe Salcihai
Welcome to the after show. This is the part of the show that doesn't exist. We haven't done an after show on a Friday in a long time. Stacker Robert sent me a comedy clip that you guys may have heard. I'm going to play just a little bit of this and I'm going to ask if you've ever been in a similar situation because, well, Robert thinks that sometimes the world of business is fun. This is comedian Jay Larson.
- [63:40]
F
I have a question. Your cell phone rings and you don't recognize the number. What do you do? Ignore it? Don't answer it?
- [63:46]
OG
Not me.
- [63:47]
Joe Salcihai
I like life.
- [63:49]
F
The other day, my cell phone rang 917. That's a new York number. I didn't know who was. I picked it up. Anyway, I hit talk. I said, hello. Guy in the line goes, hey, Bruce, what's going on? My name's Jay, not Bruce. So I said, nothing much, man. What's going on with you? And he said, I'll tell you what's going on. I just got an email about the budget. It's supposed to be 15,000. Now it's 10,000, and I'd like to know what's up. I got excited in my chest. I grabbed the steering wheel. I was like, okay, focus. Your name is Bruce. There's a budget. It was 15,000. Now it's 10,000. No one's happy about it. That's all. That's all we know. So I just repeated back to him what he said to me, And I go, 10,000 is supposed to be 15,000. He goes, yeah, I know. Well, I just got an email and now it's 10. I go, listen, man, I don't know what to tell you. I've been on the road all day, you know, I haven't even seen it. And he goes, did you send this out? I'd given some attitude to Bruce. I didn't like it. I said, listen, man, the budget was 15,000. We had a couple extra expenditures. It went up to 16 2. I reworked it, got it down to 14 7. I had 300 to play with. So I called it 15 and I sent it out. And he goes, yeah, well, now it's 10, man. And I was like, oh, my God, that worked.
- [65:04]
Joe Salcihai
That worked.
- [65:05]
Jesse Kramer
Phase one complete.
- [65:07]
Joe Salcihai
Well, people can look up Jay Larson and can hear the rest of that because that goes on for a good five minutes. But. But I'm wondering if an og that sounds totally like something you would do. Have any of you either played with a caller that had a case of wrong number before? Oh, oh, geez. Yes.
- [65:25]
Paula Pant
No.
- [65:26]
OG
The only one that I can think of was many, many, many, many, many, like 25 years. This is pre cell phone. The person was. It was from att and they were selling like international calling minutes, privileges, minutes, something. And I was so bored. I just remember sitting in my bedroom talking to this guy going, well, somet to Egypt. And he's like, oh, well, our Egyptian rates, you know, and he's like. And like, he was putting together this package of Egyptian rates and Japanese rates. And, you know, I got so many minutes to France. And so like. Or whatever the hell they were selling. And it went on for quite a while. I don't remember how long, maybe an hour. And then I was like, ah, I don't know. I think I'm gonna call MCI and see what they can do.
- [66:15]
Doug
Click.
- [66:17]
OG
I feel pretty bad about that because that's. I wouldn't being in professional sales in some way shape or form that would really ruin my day. So. So hindsight, I would not advise that. But cell phones kind of. All bets are off if you're going to call my cell phone and you type the number wrong.
- [66:34]
Joe Salcihai
If you're calling me.
- [66:36]
Doug
Yeah, yeah.
- [66:37]
OG
What did you do, Doug?
- [66:39]
Doug
I love this story. I'm so proud of myself because I'm pretty sure I got at least two people fired.
- [66:45]
Joe Salcihai
Wow.
- [66:46]
Paula Pant
Wow. Okay.
- [66:48]
OG
I was mad. I cost a sales guy an hour. Doug's like, I'm taking heads over here.
- [66:52]
Paula Pant
Oh, yeah, that's a good lead in.
- [66:53]
Doug
At probably at least one of them was at a Fortune 500, Fortune 50 company, and the other was at a little small company in my town when we bought our first house. Get the phone line established. Remember what a hassle that was getting that taken care of? And we just get the number they give us and don't think anything of it. And after we'd been in the house for, I don't know, maybe a month or two, not long, I start getting. Remember the old answering machines, A little cassette player on it? I started getting. While I'm at work, I'm getting calls for the local deli, Little stuff. And I would ignore it. And after it happened maybe three times, I call them up and I say, hey, well, I'm getting. I'm getting these calls. Why am I getting calls? Oh, yeah, that used to be our number. And so you're probably just getting them from people who are old customers. And it just kept going on and on. And I would call them and say, I'm still getting calls. And, you know, these people want their food, you want the business. I'm trying to be nice about it because it wasn't like it was ringing off the hook, but it was happening at this point. And then probably once a week or something, and I go over there, finally go to the deli, and it's on their damn sign out on over their building. Is my phone number on their damn sign. And I'm like, look, I'm getting a lot of these calls. Yeah, it's on the sign. It's on a bunch of our printed stuff. We're just. Sorry. At this point, it's just out there, and it's not gonna. We're not gonna fix it. Like, oh, all right. That's how it's gonna be. I grab one of their menus on the way out, and like, six months later, I get a call leaving from General Motors, from somebody at General Motors. Leaving what? I think I did the math. It was going to be, like, a 1500-2000 order. They wanted catering for a big event they were having.
- [68:45]
Joe Salcihai
Oh, no.
- [68:45]
Doug
And you took the order? I took that order. I actively took. I called that number back. And I'm looking at the menu, and I'm like, so on that platter. I can't remember what it was called on this platter. Do you want it all? Ham and turkey? Do you want to mix in some pastrami? Like, I just. I went deep into this deli order, asking them all the options, and they wanted, like, six trays of that and all these brownies and just everything you could think to cater a lunch for. I remember what it was. A couple hundred people.
- [69:13]
Joe Salcihai
I can see how there's some collateral damage about to happen now.
- [69:15]
Doug
No, nothing happened.
- [69:17]
OG
I mean, I know patience over on this.
- [69:19]
Doug
What's that?
- [69:20]
OG
I said, is the statue of limitations over on this? Is there a chance someone finds you goes, that was me. Dude.
- [69:27]
Doug
This. This probably happened. I could. I bet you this happened in 1995. Spring of 95 is when this happened.
- [69:33]
OG
That guy's dead.
- [69:34]
Doug
Yeah, but that guy did not. The whoever was in charge of planning that party, they got a serious talking to. And, you know, if they're just leaving that order on voicemail and not making sure it happened, they already had three bad performance reviews prior to that, so this had to have been the last straw.
- [69:49]
Joe Salcihai
You taught them a lesson, Doug. Yeah, and the deli. A lesson. That's why I feel good about it.
- [69:53]
Doug
I did a service in mentoring Paul.
- [69:56]
Joe Salcihai
You said you've never done this. You've never had one of those?
- [69:58]
Paula Pant
No, no. I remember seeing Bart Simpson make those calls to Mo Sislak. You know, I. That's like a cherished childhood memory. But. But, no, never did it myself.
- [70:09]
Joe Salcihai
That's Jesse's real name. Mosislak, isn't it?
- [70:12]
Jesse Kramer
That's when they're not calling me False dichotomy. They call me Moses.
- [70:16]
Joe Salcihai
Like, you must have had one of these, Jesse.
- [70:19]
Jesse Kramer
No, the one that comes to mind was my wife was getting one of those calls from someone pretending to be Microsoft, asking her for, like, their password.
- [70:27]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah.
- [70:27]
Jesse Kramer
And it's someone with an overseas accent. And it's a total scam.
- [70:31]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah.
- [70:31]
Jesse Kramer
So I did. Have you ever seen these things online? I basically copied what some YouTube channels do, which you. You act really dumb.
- [70:37]
Joe Salcihai
Just started reeling them in.
- [70:39]
Jesse Kramer
So dumb. And you. Exactly. You reel them in and say, okay, so would it help if I gave you my Social Security number? Yep.
- [70:44]
Joe Salcihai
Yep.
- [70:44]
Jesse Kramer
Sure thing. Let me go get it. And, you know, they. They ask for things, and then you kind of. You're like, okay, sure. Where do I wire the money to? Oh, I typed it in wrong. Sorry. And they kind of get upset, and eventually the guy lost his temper and hung up on me. But I probably wasted, like, 15 minutes of his time. Didn't waste any of my time.
- [70:59]
Doug
Right. I was gonna say, yeah, that was time well spent for you.
- [71:02]
Joe Salcihai
No, it's joy. What gives you more joy? Hanging up on them.
- [71:06]
Jesse Kramer
Exactly.
- [71:06]
Joe Salcihai
Exactly.
- [71:07]
OG
Jesse, you did a service by allowing them to not be able to attack.
- [71:10]
Doug
Another vulnerable elderly person.
- [71:13]
Jesse Kramer
Totally. Yeah. I've got another funny one. Actually, it's a little bit different, though, because. And this. It's. It has to do with kind of what we talk about here. Like, three months ago, my wife got an email from Edward Jones, basically being like, your account is shut down. It's locked. You gotta call us and unlock it.
- [71:29]
Joe Salcihai
Oh, from air quotes. Edward Jones.
- [71:30]
Jesse Kramer
That's the thing. I get a text midday, and she's like, hey, for some reason, my Edward Jones.
- [71:34]
OG
I can't remember Jones account is closed. And you're like, right.
- [71:37]
Jesse Kramer
She's like, jesse, what's our Edward Jones account information? So I immediately call her. I'm like, we don't have any Edward Jones account. And she immediately. She's just like, I told him everything. I told them everything. I'm like, oh, my God. But here's where the twist is. Here's where the twist is. Her maiden name is Burns. Kelly Burns. Very generic name.
- [71:57]
Joe Salcihai
And what was the Social Security number again for Kelly?
- [71:59]
OG
Exactly.
- [71:59]
Jesse Kramer
Exactly.
- [72:00]
OG
What would you say the last four of your. Of your Gmail.
- [72:04]
Jesse Kramer
Her Gmail. Her email account is a very generic variation of her name. Some random lady named Kelly Burns in rural Illinois incorrectly filled out her Edward Jones application and put my wife's email instead of her own email. And so my wife got the notification that, like, she's locked out of her account. And long story short, I ended up calling this random Edward Jones office in Illinois being like, hey, I'm calling from Rochester. Did you happen to have a client named Kelly Burns sign up at your office within the last week? And they're like, yeah, why? So anyway.
- [72:39]
OG
Well, anyway, I took all her money.
- [72:41]
Doug
So it wasn't a scammer.
- [72:42]
Jesse Kramer
It was a real email.
- [72:43]
Doug
Okay.
- [72:44]
Jesse Kramer
But that not meant there was a bigger fish.
- [72:46]
Joe Salcihai
They were going for Jesse.
- [72:48]
OG
You missed the opportunity to teach her a lesson. Hi, I'm Kelly Burns. I'm here for my withdrawal.
- [72:57]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, as they've moved on from calling to texting right now, I get these texts that say, hey, how are you? Yeah, hey, what are you doing? So at first, I would block and delete maybe 50 times. I did that about two weeks ago. I started going, where are you? They go. And the person writes back, and they're like, this is Andrea. I know it's Andrea. Where are you? We gotta bury the body.
- [73:23]
Doug
Yeah.
- [73:27]
Joe Salcihai
And they're like, no, I think you have the. And now they're trying to convince me that they're not the person that has anything to do with this.
- [73:31]
Jesse Kramer
Yeah.
- [73:31]
Joe Salcihai
I'm like, you got to get over here. You Were bringing the shovel. What time are you getting here?
- [73:36]
Doug
There's a whole subreddit for that now, Joe.
- [73:38]
Joe Salcihai
Is there really?
- [73:39]
Doug
Yeah, there. And it's all text messages because, you know, you can take screenshots and post it and people will you. You're like swiping into like 8 and 10 screen images of this whole conversation. And it's hilarious to see how long the scammers will stick with it while the person messing with them.
- [73:53]
Joe Salcihai
Well, they must all work together. At least the ones that were. Were trying to scam me because those have dried up in the past week and a half. I played that game three times and now they're. And actually one person. One person finally went, have a good day, sir. At the end, like, you know who I am and I know who you are. Yeah, have a good day.
- [74:13]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [74:14]
Doug
Give you a little. Little hat tip. Yeah, like the batter who strikes out on the good pitch. Baseball. Jesse, your story reminded me. I've forgotten about this. When we first got high speed Internet with Xfinity, I grabbed all of the emails for everybody in our. In my nuclear family. So I got like five different. One generic one for the whole family and then four others for each of us. It was just my first initial and last name. No, it's not. Neighbor. And some woman in Rhode Island. Delaware. No, Delaware. I mean, that's the same state, right? She was using my first initial last name@comcast.net with Victoria's Secret.
- [74:59]
Joe Salcihai
Yeah, I love this cover up story.
- [75:01]
Doug
She was using my name and I could just tell by getting all the confirmation emails of all of her orders, she wasn't what you would say would be the classic model in the Victoria's Secret catalog.
- [75:14]
Joe Salcihai
Again, I love the COVID up story because you are not the classic model.
- [75:19]
Doug
There's a lot of double xls which.
- [75:23]
Paula Pant
Would probably be your size if you were to order.
- [75:27]
Joe Salcihai
If you say it on the podcast. And by the way, Andrea's hanging out with us. When I said, Andrea's got to help me bury the body, and she said, I'm in. In Andrew and I got to go bury the body. So we'll see everybody next time.