The Missing Ingredients From Many Financial Plans (SB1743)

Summary

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The Stacking Benjamins Show – Episode SB1743

"The Missing Ingredients From Many Financial Plans"

Original Air Date: October 3, 2025
Panelists: Joe Saul-Sehy (host), OG (co-host), Paula Pant, Jesse Kramer, Doug (Joe's mom’s neighbor)
Theme: Unpacking the Three Most Commonly Missing Elements in Financial Plans (based on an article by Evan Beach, CFP, in Kiplinger)

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Episode Overview

In this lively and humorous roundtable, Joe, OG, Paula, and Jesse dig into a Kiplinger article identifying three things most financial plans are missing. The crew discusses why financial plans often fall short, the pitfalls of focusing only on charts and investments, and how essential overlooked areas like tax/estate planning and clear action steps can make or break your finances. They share personal anecdotes, audience insights, and actionable advice for listeners, all in their signature “fun in a basement” style.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem with Most Financial Plans: All Charts, No Action ([08:17])

• The Kiplinger article notes many plans are just charts, graphs, and probabilities without actionable steps.
• OG: “Substituting portfolio for planning is a very common, easy thing for an advisor to do... but the real benefit is having the conversations about what’s upcoming in your life.” ([09:27])
• Paula: Warns of an “overfocus on the what (investments, tactics), and not on the why,” causing people to lose the big picture ([11:12]).
• Joe: Highlights that people are often more comfortable talking investments over goals: “People thought it was cotton candy... let's get to the hard stuff.” ([13:02])
• Jesse: Advises boiling complex, long-term plans into “simple nuts-and-bolts logistics for the next six months,” noting planners and clients alike often get caught “thinking decades ahead but forgetting what has to happen tomorrow.” ([13:35])
• Action Point: Demand a “do-this-then-that” roadmap in your financial plan—not just projections.

2. Missing Ingredient #1: Tangible, Step-by-Step Plans ([14:50])

• OG: “Absent something more important, the default is investments and headlines. It’s our job to stay focused on what has the biggest impact.” ([15:10])
• Planners need to bring clients back to actionable steps, not just market chatter.
• OG: “I'd rather spend 28 minutes having you tell me about your trips and 2 minutes discussing tiny tweaks.” ([17:40])
• Key Insight: Financial planning should allocate time to real life goals, with only minimal focus on tinkering with portfolios.

3. Missing Ingredient #2: Tax & Estate Planning ([18:29])

• Evan's article laments the neglect of tax and estate strategies—which can pay bigger dividends than portfolio tweaks.

Making Estate Planning Less Scary ([19:27])

• Jesse (on making estate planning relatable): "It's like, okay, let's be realistic. We all die... but there are too many stories where someone leaves a mess. A simple estate plan solves so many problems." ([19:32])
• Doug (joking): “We’re putting the fun in funeral.” ([20:50])
• Paula: Suggests normalizing estate planning as a standard milestone, like turning 18 or getting a colonoscopy, “making it a rule” so there’s less subjectivity and avoidance. ([21:59])

Importance of Tax Planning ([23:55])

• OG: "Every single solitary thing has a tax impact... nobody likes surprises, good ones or bad ones, especially tax ones in April." ([23:55])
• If your only tax preparation is dropping papers at your CPA in April, your plan is missing a critical piece.
• Tax planning should consider not just this year but domino effects, like Medicare premium surcharges due to income ([25:23]).

4. Missing Ingredient #3: Clear Answers to Big Questions ([40:31])

• Plans often avoid direct responses to key questions like “Can I retire?” resorting to vague probabilities instead.
• Paula: “At the heart of it, the big question is: Will I be okay?” ([40:31])
• Jesse: Pushes back: "Most actual financial plans go straight into the big questions... What they're missing is often the step-by-step to get there." ([41:07])
• OG: Stresses balancing realism and optimism. “We have to provide hope and optimism in as much dosage as the realistic numbers.” ([43:16])
• On delivering tough messages: “If you say to someone, ‘You’re good, man, you can’t even screw this up,’ they might try.” ([43:44])
• On handling clients who fall short: “If 60 isn’t happening, maybe 62 is, if you do these three things. Here’s the path to get as close as possible.” ([44:57])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• OG ([09:27]): “Substituting portfolio for planning is a very common, easy thing for an advisor to do. The real benefit... is the actual work of planning, not just playing with small caps and interest rates.”
• Paula ([13:02]): “Goal-based planning is much more subjective...people are worried about crossing the line into Kumbaya, rainbows and unicorns.”
• Jesse ([19:32]): “You’re skydiving, your parachute breaks—don’t you wish you had an estate plan?”
• OG ([23:55]): “No surprises. I’m convinced nobody likes surprise—good ones, bad ones, especially tax ones... you should have a pretty good idea of what's happening with your tax situation.”
• Paula ([21:59]): “If you just make it a rule—when you turn this age, you get an estate plan—then it’s not personal, it’s just a rule.”
• Joe ([47:07]): “I like your emphasis on telling people not just ‘you can’t do this’ but also ‘here’s how we maybe get back to your goal.’”
• OG ([48:05]): “Well, you show up in the office: ‘Boy, you have a crapload of credit card debt! How are you even afloat?’... Like, I know, that's why I'm here. I need help, not more beating!”
• Paula ([50:28]): “With money, you need to establish expertise, because there are so many charlatans and salespeople out there. People's defenses are up, as they should be.”

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [08:17] – Introduction of the missing elements in most financial plans
• [09:27] – OG explains why plans are all charts and no action
• [13:02] – Paula on avoidance of subjective goal-setting
• [13:35] – Jesse’s advice on breaking complex goals into actionable steps
• [17:40] – OG’s preferred use of client meeting time
• [19:27] – Jesse on making estate planning relatable and urgent
• [21:59] – Paula’s “make it a rule” for estate planning
• [23:55] – OG on the omnipresence and importance of tax planning
• [40:31] – Addressing the desire for clear, direct answers: “Will I be okay?”
• [41:07] – Jesse defends that many financial plans do answer the big questions—but often miss step-by-step instructions
• [44:57] – OG on mixing realism and optimism for clients who are “behind”
• [47:07] – OG on advisor bedside manner for delivering hard truths

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Takeaways & Action Items

Panelist Recommendations:

• Jesse ([52:45]): “Double-check your estate planning documents and beneficiary designations. For most Stackers, this is the piece they’re missing.”
• Paula ([53:09]): “Think about the black swan and gray swan events—not just budgeting and investing, but the big risks and uncertainties that could derail your plan.”
• OG ([54:49]): “Understand how all the moving parts—taxes, investments, insurance, estate—impact each other. At a minimum, forecast what your tax bill will be next year.”

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Episode’s Fun, Community & Trivia Highlights

• Classic Stacking Benjamins trivia face-off between Paula, OG, and Jesse ([29:07]).
• Audience comments highlighted live, showing real-time engagement and additional resources (e.g., legal plans at work for affordable estate documents, [27:10]).
• Banter between cohosts full of their usual dad jokes and self-deprecating humor (skydiving jokes, lasagna tax, and “putting the fun in funeral”).
• Signature closing: Doug recaps absurd (but tangentially appropriate) action steps in a tongue-in-cheek “to do list.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode underscores that financial plans must go beyond asset allocation and portfolio projections. The most reliable and helpful plans are actionable, holistic, and account for overlooked (sometimes uncomfortable) topics. Listeners are reminded to:

• Demand concrete action items,
• Cover “unsexy” but vital topics like tax and estate planning,
• Work with advisors who give both clarity and hope, not just charts and fear.

If your financial plan doesn’t address these areas, it’s time to fill in the gaps!

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Find more: StackingBenjamins.com
Links to Jesse Kramer's Personal Finance for Long-Term Investors Podcast & Paula Pant’s Afford Anything Podcast are provided in the show notes.

Transcript

[Joe Saul Severson]

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[Joe Saul Severson]

Hey, Shake and bake Cal Shake and Bake.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Live from the basement of the YouTube headquarters, it's the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and what are the three things missing from most financial plans? We'll dive into what one author suggests your plan needs to make it shine with our roundtable panel today. But that's not all. Jesse Kramer took the lead in our year long trivia contest.

[Joe Saul Severson]

What? What?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Right, let's rewind that tape because the world is upside down. Can he hang on to that lead? We'll pause halfway through this discussion for my mind bending trivia. And now a guy who loves the weekend because it means he gets to update his spreadsheets in peace and quiet. It's Joe Saul CI.

[Joe Saul Severson]

The weekend. And if you're a money nerd, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Stacky Benjamin Show. Doug and I are super happy that you're here. Aren't we Doug? We're super excited. Yay. Just sit back and relax because if you've never been with us on a Friday episode, this is where we invite some some of our friends to debate a topic that we found in the popular press. And we've got A great one today. This is a financial planner, Doug, talking about the things that we sees in all these financial plans that are always missing that I guess he doesn't see in financial plans. The thing he sees that he doesn't see.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Raise your hand if you're not here. It's that kind of an article.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yeah. So what do you need in your financial plan to make it work? Well, let's say hello to the people that are going to compare and contrast this stuff. Let's start off with the gentleman who just got back from taking his eldest to back to college. Mr. OG is here. How are you, man?

[OG]

Man, I'm just so happy to be here.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yeah. So you're so.

[OG]

Thanks for having me again, guys.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Hey, you're welcome. Glad you could make it for the, what, 1700th and whatever time.

[OG]

I was on the phone driving back and I said, I've got to do this podcast recording. And my buddy says, oh, are y' all prepared? And I just started laughing. Prepar. This is like number 1700 something.

[Joe Saul Severson]

He's like, who's the we? Are they prepared?

[OG]

Are they prepared? Yeah. Is the audience ready? They are the ones that need to.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Be prepared because OG knows how to delegate. Doug. He's got this delegation thing down. If everybody else gets it ready, then. Then he's good.

[OG]

It does help quite a ton.

[Joe Saul Severson]

It does. And somebody else who. It helps quite a ton to have her here podcasting with us from Manhattan. Paula Pants here. How are you?

[Paula Pant]

I'm here. I'm here. This is the last week. For those of you who are watching on YouTube, you can see the office around me. This is my we work office. And this is my last week in this space. So you see bare shelves here.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yes.

[Paula Pant]

You see cardboard boxes over there.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Let this be a reminder, kids, of what happens when you don't pay the rent.

[Paula Pant]

I know, right?

[OG]

Somebody needs to have a financial plan on how to pay for rent.

[Paula Pant]

Someone's getting evicted out of her. We work now has to go live in a storage unit.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Again. I love that piece. Yeah. May not be truthful, but it still is funny. Speaking of funny, the guy who is assisting us on the Canadian border all the way up in Rochester, New York. Mr. Jesse Kramer's here. How are you, buddy?

[Jesse Kramer]

Doing well, Doing well. I think I caught some strays there. During your introduction, I heard some comments on the side, I think, but we're doing well. Protecting the Canadian border. Yeah, I don't know about that. We've got. We're letting a lot of geese in. Over the border. So. Oh, man, we're dealing with them. Some, some illegal geese.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

They're not exactly pounding at the gates these days to get into the US So I don't think there's a lot of work for you right now, Jesse.

[Joe Saul Severson]

What's that? The geese. The geese aren't Canadians. Yeah. Or the geese. Yeah. Well, you know what? People are pounding to get into a better financial plan. How about that? Everybody wants to get into. Paul is like, did that work, Paula?

[Paula Pant]

That in the hall of fame of transitions. That might be so close.

[Joe Saul Severson]

That might be number 57 or 58 of the worst transitions ever. But everybody wants a great financial plan. And so there was a piece I found on Kiplinger that was written by Evan Beach, CFP and awma. He's a financial planner. These three things are missing from almost every financial plan that he sees. We're going to dive into those. You don't even need to read the piece. We will link to it in our show notes, but you don't need to read it. We're going to dive into all these today and help you get rid of those holes in your financial plan. But first, we got a few sponsors that make sure we can keep on keeping on. You don't pay a penny for any of this. Goodness. We're going to hear from them. And then Og, Paula and Jesse diving into how to shore up your financial plan. This episode is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. Buying a car could be like a long road trip. There's negotiating prices, lots of fees and a difficult process. But with the auto loan from Navy Federal, you're on the highway to higher savings. We want our members to save more on their next auto purchase. That's why we offer great rates, military discounts and pre approvals that are good for 90 days. Plus. We offer most decisions in seconds. You could even get $200 when you refinance your auto loans from another lender with us. So if you want to save more on your next auto purchase, learn more and apply for an auto loan@navy federal.org auto loans. Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA Credit and collateral subject to approval. Terms and conditions apply for military discounts. Refinance loan must be at least $5,000 to be eligible for the $200. Terms and conditions apply. Visit Navy federal.org/auto loans for details.

[OG]

For a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8. That means two All Beef Patties, special sauce, lettuce cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun and medium fries.

[Joe Saul Severson]

And a drink. We may need to change that jingle.

[OG]

Prices and participation may vary.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Foreign We've got some stackers hanging out with us on YouTube live. If you want to hang out with us, we're here generally on Monday afternoons. Fee from Annapolis is here. B is with us again. Chris is here. Hi, guys. Your buddy from Texas. First time to see how the sausage is made. Glad you're here with us, Chris. We also have indie, indie Tampa here. K Sans is here. Jack, Carlos, Glad you guys are hanging out with us on this awesome day. All right, speaking of awesome, let's talk about this piece because I think this idea of a financial plan is frustrating for a lot of people because Og, we'll start with you. You know, Evan starts off this discussion by saying that, you know, when you go to do a workout, the trainer goes, do this, do this, do this, do this, do this. When you go to get your financial plan, what Evan sees from a lot of financial planners is a bunch of charts and graphs that shows the probability that you might make it or you might not make it based on what you told them about what your tax situation looks like today. And then maybe a few recommendations based on that. And then 50 PL. I like the end of this. 50 pages of disclosures. Why is it so difficult from the planner side of the table to create an actionable plan instead of just a bunch of projections?

[OG]

Well, I guess I'm kind of on Evan's side here. I don't think it is that hard. I would think that he would see much more investment management stuff as kind of the corpus of the conversation and a lot less on the things that he's talking about that he feels is missing from a lot of them. Because I think in my experience that seems to be the case. Substituting portfolio for planning is a very common, easy thing for an advisor to do. And frankly, I think some of it's also on the client because unless they don't have anything else to talk about, that's the most fun stuff to talk about anyway, right? It's like the money, like, what are we doing with small caps right now? That's exciting. And, and I heard interest rates are going down. That really, that does something to something, right? So that feels like that's the thing to do. And I believe, and I'm guessing Jesse believes this as well, and I can tell that Evan does. The real benefit of the financial planning is the actual work of planning, not necessarily the. The little things that you do on the back end because of it. It's the fact that you're having the conversation that you're thinking about these things that are upcoming in your life. Not the, you know, what percent of my money goes in small cap or something like that. I mean, it's an important piece, but it's not the important piece.

[Joe Saul Severson]

It did always drive me crazy back when I was a financial planner. Oh, gee. That, that I would sit down, I'd say, so what are your goals? Like, oh, no, no, I don't, I don't really care about that. Let's talk about great investments. Like here, I want to show you my portfolio. You show me what I'm doing. But it's funny, Paula, because people would often go into my office and Og's talking about this. Jesse's nodding his head in a financial planning office. He sees this a lot too. I'm guessing you talk a lot about intentional living. How does this lack of a real step by step plan instead of let's just talk about the investments trip people up?

[Paula Pant]

I think sometimes there can be an over focus on the investments, meaning an overfocus on the product, the tactics, not that investments are a product, but, you know, it's an over focus on the what rather than on the why. And so sometimes the bigger picture, the what's it all for? Can get lost because people get so caught up in the what, whether that what is your asset allocation or some insurance products or whatever else it may be.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Do you also think, Paula, that a bunch of us are afraid of the why? Going down that rabbit hole seems like a difficult thing. I'm thinking about when Doc G has been on Jordan Grumman and him talking about purpose a lot and how he has all kinds of people that get mad at him when they start talking about purpose. Does defining these goals scare the hell out of people? You think that's a piece?

[Paula Pant]

I think that might be one of a multitude of things that are going on. I also think that generally speaking, we live in a society where things that are quantifiable are considered higher value than things that are qualitative. And so, you know, broadly speaking, the, the STEM professions and the STEM studies in school are considered higher value than the humanities, for example. Now that, you know, I'm not saying that I agree with that or disagree with that, but that's just broadly how value is perceived in society. And so I think that people often perceive that they are receiving, delivering and receiving value based on how quantifiable and mathematical that delivery is.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Gotcha. Which, you know, goal based planning is much more subjective, Right.

[Paula Pant]

I think people are worried about being so subjective that they cross the line into Kumbaya, rainbows and unicorns, right? At which point it just turns into cotton candy. And nobody wants to be thought of as delivering that.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Which is frustrating because I feel like it's. And I saw this all the time, that people thought it was cotton kit. They're like, yeah, whatever, goal setting sounds cute, neat, whatever, let's get on with the hard stuff, right? Almost like in life where we talk about communication as a soft skill, when that's 90% of the time, what trips people up. Jesse, you write often about making complex things simple, right? Why do you think? Well, number one, do you agree that a lot of advisors shy away from making things binary? Do this, then that, and then number two, if you do agree with that, why do you think so many advisors shy away from it?

[Jesse Kramer]

Do I think that advisors shy away from making things binary? Probably. I mean, one thing, I don't know if this is exactly what the author was getting into, but as OG can probably attest to, like, sometimes it can be easy to get caught up in the weeds of things. It can be easy when you're thinking about retirement, when you're thinking, when you're talking to a younger client who maybe they're retiring in five years and then they'll have Social Security decision, a Medicare decision, RMDs, Roth conversions, et cetera, et cetera. You can get caught up in thinking decades ahead, when really, I mean, it's fine to think decades ahead, but then you have to bring it back and boil it down to here are the things that you ought to do or that we, as your financial planner, are going to do for you in the next six months. Here are the simple things, nuts and bolts, logistics and mechanics, and here's the easy stuff that you're going to do in the next six months and then getting into some of the softer things, like, here are the reasons why we're doing those things and here's how it fits into the greater plan. So I think it can be easy to get caught in that trap where sometimes you're thinking so far ahead you forget about, well, what needs to happen tomorrow so that we've reached this goal 20 years from now. I don't know if that exactly answers your question, Joe, and I also forget the second part of your question. The curse of a podcast guest forgetting the second part of two part questions.

[Joe Saul Severson]

No, it was. Do you agree? And ostensibly based on your answer, you do Agree that advisors find it hard to make things binary. And I think you answered that, oh, gee, how do you get around this in your practice? Like, how do you get around people that don't want to talk about the goals or that they just want to go with the, quote, hard stuff, which are these more complex strategies over goal attainment?

[OG]

Yeah. You just fire them. Yeah.

[Joe Saul Severson]

You fire the client.

[OG]

Yeah, Yep. Sorry. It's not what we do. The reality is, absent something more important to talk about, then the default is going to be on the investments or on whatever topic du jour they read in Kiplinger, for example, you know, or wherever. Right. And so I think it's incumbent on us as professionals to keep the conversation largely focused in the areas that have the biggest impact. That's the piece of our job that we have to do. I get it. If you're spinning out of control because you want to talk about the market as cratering and that sort of thing, we've got to be able to arrest that descent. Right. Kind of get you back to neutral to then be able to focus on the stuff that really matters. And on occasion there's something that's going on in your life that really doesn't matter so much, but maybe you just need somebody to talk to about it and just listen. And that's part of our job too. But ultimately, the biggest benefit I think that planners have, advisors have for clients is giving them that space to think about the stuff that's upcoming. Like Jesse said, these big giant 30 year decisions and 10 year decisions and that sort of stuff. And then for us to go, all right, how do we take all of this stuff and say, well, this is what we need to spend our energy on for the next six months. You're going to do this thing and I'm going to do this thing. And then why don't we talk again and know six months or a year and see where we are and then see if there's any adjustments that need to be made. You know, we've talked about a lot things around asset allocation, rebalancing. Statistically once a year is good enough, you know, so why would we want to spend any energy on that? I, I mean, I love talking to people about money. This is what we do both professionally and then in this little side project for the last, you know, decade and a half. But also I like to not do those things, you know, and it's like if we're just going to talk about small cap value stocks and you know, I'm just going let's not. Don't you have something else to do? Like, surely your life is important enough to like have something else to do and talk about small value right now? Like, yeah, I know, I got, I would like go hit golf balls or go sit by the pool or do something. You know, I want to do those things, but you know, in like little limited circumstances. Right. I don't know. Makes me sound curmudgeonly, I suppose.

[Joe Saul Severson]

But yeah, I don't know. I mean, if we substitute the golf balls piece for me with just spending more time, time on goal attainment to your earlier point board games, there's so much there. There is absolutely so much there.

[OG]

I would rather, let me put it this way. I would rather spend 28 minutes of a 30 minute meeting having you tell me all about all of your trips, where you're going next, where you sat in the airplane showing me pictures, then going, cool, so I'm going to do that again next year. Is everything good or do we have to make, you know, like, well, we should do this one little thing and this one thing. Awesome. I'm really excited. I'm booking the trip for next year. That is the best benefit of having somebody else with you along this path. Not to spend the 28 minutes going, let's finagle all this stuff so then you can go be like, well, it's all for these pictures. You got to, oh, we don't have time for the picture. Okay, all right. You know what I mean? Like, the energy should be on the pictures. Energy should be on the experience and the stuff that you're spending the money on and the stuff that you're doing and the two minutes should be on like, okay, we're gonna do this and this and then you're gonna do that and then we're good.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Well, it's like Evan's point here with the workout routine. Do this, do this, do this and you'll reach your goal. Bam. Instead of here's charts and graphs about your heart and the monitoring of your heart, here's your, you know, blood circulation. Here's, here's whatever. Missing piece number two Evan points out is tax and estate strategies. He said that most plans skip taxes and estate plans, and yet those can have even bigger wins than portfolio tweaks. And even though there's some planning softwares that he talks about that are emerging, humans really are have to interpret them and act on them. So, Jesse, let's start with you. If you would explain the importance of estate planning at like a backyard barbecue and not Bore your friends to. To hell. Like, you know, you're in a backyard barbecue. You want to talk estate planning? Talk about killing the vibe. How do you. How would you do that? And talk about how important it is in kind of a fun way.

[Jesse Kramer]

Well, boy, in a fun way, you had to have that qualifier at the very, very end. How do you make it fun? No.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Anybody can. You can.

[Jesse Kramer]

I would just say, listen. Okay, I have to do it in a fun way. So there you are, you're skydiving, you're having the time of your life, and your parachute breaks. Don't you wish you have an estate plan? I mean, that's essentially what it comes down to. But no, it's like, okay, let's be realistic. We all die at some point. It doesn't have to be that negative a topic. It happens. But there are just too many stories to count where when you die, it's important to understand how your assets pass on to other people in your life, your heirs who might be affected after you've gone, to make sure that plans are placed to take care of them. I was just doing a bunch of research on special needs planning, which is a whole nother ball of wax, but. Oh, yeah, maybe you have to care for an adult child after you pass away. But the whole point is that there are so many situations we can point to, both famous ones and totally mundane ones that no one would have ever heard of. Where somebody died and they left a mess behind them, both in terms of like a.

[OG]

A.

[Jesse Kramer]

An emotional mess for other people to pick up the pieces, but then just a financial mess in terms of who received what assets and why and in what share.

[Joe Saul Severson]

I thought you meant hitting the ground after skydiving.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Yeah, that's not the mess I thought he was going to talk about.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yeah.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Plus, a lot of times you pee yourself, I've heard.

[OG]

Not when you splat. There's nothing to pee. It just.

[Paula Pant]

We're putting the fun in funeral.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Heart, heart. DP hanging out with us on YouTube says, Bam. So many skydiving jokes, so little time.

[Jesse Kramer]

It's true. And you want to come in for a nice soft landing, but you don't always do. And no, an estate. A simple estate plan solves so many of these problems. It's the problem that nobody thinks they're ever going to deal with. And yet we here on this podcast can all point to examples where, yeah, lots of real people have fallen into this trap simply by not getting an estate plan done in time.

[Joe Saul Severson]

You know, Paula, here's what I think I Think that bad advisors shy away from this stuff, tax and estate planning, because they think taxes are going to bore the client to tears. In estate planning, nobody wants to talk about it, so I don't want to talk about it. Frankly, I think that an advisor who's a people pleaser, a bad advisor, but that's still the majority. I think of a lot of people. I just want to get along with others. Why do you think or how do you think we can make estate planning less scary for people so they actually act on it because ultimately, whether it's scary or not, we got to get it done.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. I think there are two things. One is sometimes people take things less personally if it's just a rule. And so I heard somebody say, and this is a little bit extreme, but I actually heard someone say, I believe that every single person as soon as they turn 18, should have an estate plan. And I was like, whoa, that sounds extreme because it's like 18, really. I think what they did, and you can debate the age, but what they did was they made an age based rule. It takes the subjectivity out of it. It's like when you turn this age, you get a colonoscopy. When you turn this age, you get an estate plan, you set like an age based rule. And then that removes the decision making and it removes the question of is it for me or not? It's purely age based.

[Joe Saul Severson]

I like that. Just this, make it a rule. I feel like in the nation we did this with, with seat belts. I mean, we started, you know, when I was a kid. I remember my dad going, I don't wear a seatbelt. Nobody, you know, I'm too cool to wear a seat belt now. It's like if you don't get in the car and put your seatbelt on right away. I feel like it's kind of a, you know, not always at the law. It just feels like a rule, like just a thing that we do. Doug.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

I would actually take that even further, Joe, and say it doesn't feel like anything because I don't even know I do it like it is. It is such truly a habit if you ask me. Do you put it on or don't you? I'm like, I don't know. Oh, it's on. Oh, my God.

[OG]

Wow.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

How'd that happen?

[Joe Saul Severson]

Well, thanks, Doug. We get to beep out another one now.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

We get to beep out another word.

[OG]

If they can say that on Sportscenter, we can say it on podcasts. Right? Like it's kind of loose the rules a little bit.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

They get to say it on SportsCenter now.

[OG]

They do.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Wow.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Wow.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Okay. But I mean, I think that's the great part of making this habitual, is that you won't even know it's happening.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Oh, gee. Tax planning. Jesse and Paula covered estate planning, but tax planning, where's the place that tax planning can really make a difference? If people just woke up and thought about taxes a little bit instead of just the investment strategy?

[OG]

Every single solitary thing has a tax impact. I mean, it's important to know the secondary and the dominoes that fall beyond your decision making. And I think that one of the rules that we have is no surprises. I'm firmly convinced that nobody likes surprises of any kind, good ones or bad ones. Right. Because if you have a good surprise, like it's your birthday, you're like, surprise, a birthday party. You're like, oh, I'm wearing this grubby T shirt. I could have done my hair. Is it good? Like, I didn't shave. What? You know what I mean? Like, it's still surprised. It would've been surprised 10 minutes ago, and I would have put a different shirt on and some deodorant. That also was a surprise. I just think nobody likes surprises of any kind, so. Especially bad ones, and certainly tax ones that come in April. So if you are finding that you're surprised when you say you drop your stuff off at your CPA, your tax preparer, and they go, drumroll, 3200. And you're like, oh. Or get back. And they're like, which one do you think? You know, you should have a pretty good idea. You pick. You know, you should have a pretty good idea of what's happening with your tax situation. But I think what sometimes people do is they'll look at, like, a great one, for example, is in retirement with. With Medicare. The premiums for Medicare, which everybody is. Gets some. Some amount of Medicare, the premiums are tied to your income, and there's like, different thresholds at which the premiums increase. And I think everybody would sign off on that and go, yeah, it makes sense. If you're super rich, you pay a little bit more. All right, cool. But nobody thinks that Roth conversions count as being super rich. Or you get a bunch of dividends that just stay in your brokerage account and you reinvest them. Well, guess what? That counts. And not knowing how that all interplays. Or you take a buyout from your. From your company or a severance package or something, you know, like, all this stuff Has a secondary effect down the line. You think, oh, I got my taxes all squared away. Then two years later, your insurance premiums are, you know, $300 a month instead of 150. That's a surprise that you didn't know was coming. And so when tax planning, where it becomes very valuable, is reducing those surprises, number one, and then number two, giving you a Runway to make changes in advance that you know are coming. We look at tax planning for clients in the fall because we think it's a good idea to spend three or four months going, hey, I'm going to owe that 3,200 bucks. Is there anything I can do about it? Sometimes there's not like the facts are facts, right? You make money, you got to pay taxes. Sometimes you make a bunch of money, you got to pay a bunch of taxes. Sometimes you sell a piece of property and you're like, I just sold this property that I got and I don't have anything else to invest it in, so therefore I'm going to pay taxes. Right. Like that's just part of the deal.

[Joe Saul Severson]

But even if so knowing in October that you're going to owe X amount of money.

[OG]

Yeah, there's no surprise.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yeah, amazing.

[OG]

There's no surprise. Sometimes you can look at that and say, oh, well, I'm going to have this tax bill. But if I, I've got three more months, I, I really haven't maxed out my 401k yet. I could do that, pull that forward and maybe that'll help reduce my tax billing. There's like you can potentially do to lower or reduce that bill if you know it in advance. So I think there's a ton of opportunity around tax planning and this one I would agree with. If you're just showing up in April or February or whatever and saying here's my tax stuff, or you're dumping in TurboTax not having any idea. This is a big miss in your, in your financial plan.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Great discussion going on here live. Hart DP said to check with your workplace if they offer legal plans as part of your flexible benefits. I like that. And Jeff agreed with that and said our work legal plan can be great. We had our entire state plan, including a special needs trust done for a fraction of the cost using that. Some good discussion going on there. Well, we are going to talk about the third piece of what Evan says, the three missing pieces in a financial plan. The first one was a plan it all this just a bunch of charts and graphs and no real do this, do that. The Second piece was no real estate planning or tax planning. What's the third one? We're going to be back with that. But at the halfway point of every show. And man, this year it's a barn burner. As we are in October and the race is tightening guys. We have a year long competition between our three contributors here, Paula, OG and Jesse for this ridiculous dollar store trophy. And possibly our good friend Eric the last couple of years has ponied up some, some, some cool gifts from Milk Bar which is fantastic. Here's the score. Well, Doug, what is the score so far in October? Does Doug know what the score is?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Doug always knows the score. Doug doesn't always know. He's on mute.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Now we got it.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

But what I can say is that Jesse has taken a resounding commanding half point lead. He has 11 and a half points. OG has just a paltry 11 points. Paula has a minuscule, infinitesimally small seven and a half points. But she's, she's scrappy, she's a fighter. I can see she's fighting her way back.

[Joe Saul Severson]

If she wins today and it's eight and a half. I mean it is tightening here. As we roll into the fourth quarter of this trivia game.

[Paula Pant]

I'm just happy that there's a coalition victory. I'm just happy that a member of the coalition to defeat OG is now in the lead.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Let's see if Jesse pulls ahead, if that coalition continues. We'll see there. But first we need a question today. Doug, what do we got on tap for today's trivia question?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Well, hey there stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor. To Doug and on today's date in history, the income tax was passed.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yay.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

I know it's dark days, but there was some good news after the 16th amendment was ratified. Try that again. 3, 2, 1. After the 16th amendment was ratified in 1913, finally making income taxation constitutional final. Finally Congress decided to only tax 1% of your income and to only tax those people making at the time more than $4,000 according to my handy dandy inflation calculator to the penny. What would that four thousand dollar threshold be in today's dollars? I'll be back right after I go fight Joe's mom. On her list, lasagna tax. No second helping to people who weigh over how much in charging non residents. How much for corner pieces? Come on, this house is a prison.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Well, we'll let Doug go fight the good fight. Jesse, this is weird. I'm calling on you to go first, my friend. Yeah. So after. After the 16th amendment made the income tax constitutional. And nothing Doug likes better than a good constitutional. What?

[OG]

This morning Constitution.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Morning Constitution.

[Joe Saul Severson]

How much would that tax be in today's dollars?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

I want to correct you, Joe. It's not how much the tax would be, it's how much. Because they were only taxing taxpayers who.

[Joe Saul Severson]

How much would the limit be?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Right. They earned $4,000 of income.

[Joe Saul Severson]

That's right.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

So we're looking for what that $4,000 of annual income would be equal to in 2025.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Thank you.

[Jesse Kramer]

And was it 19? 1913.

[OG]

Doug?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Yes.

[Joe Saul Severson]

We can't tell you.

[OG]

We allowed the use of calculators.

[Joe Saul Severson]

No, we can't tell you what year. I think Jesse's using a calculator right now.

[OG]

Jesse's already using a calculator.

[Jesse Kramer]

No, I'm using pen and paper. But the year was in the question, right?

[Joe Saul Severson]

The year was not in the question.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

I said it, Joe.

[Paula Pant]

It was.

[Jesse Kramer]

Doug said 1913.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Why did you do that, Doug? I took the date out on purpose and Doug put it back in.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

I put it back in because you.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Made it a simple inflation discussion, which is why.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

What are you doing? The clause to the penny is critical in the question.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Oh, my goodness.

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm gonna say $134,600. One, three, four, four.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Six hundred and zero pennies.

[Jesse Kramer]

And zero pennies.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Okay.

[Joe Saul Severson]

All right. OG what are you going to do with that?

[OG]

Why do I have to go next?

[Jesse Kramer]

There's my calculator. OG you see my calculations because you're in the middle.

[Joe Saul Severson]

You are in second.

[OG]

Okay, what was his guess?

[Joe Saul Severson]

134, 600.

[OG]

I'm going to make Paula have to pick here. I'm going to say he said 134 six. So we got 112 years to raise to the three. 103 to raise to the 112th power carry the infinity. $109,599.

[Joe Saul Severson]

109,599.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Joe Saul Severson]

All right, Paula, 134. 6 and 109,599. What are you thinking?

[Paula Pant]

Well, I will say my favorite comment from Heart DP. So for those of you watching on YouTube, my hands have been in frame the whole time, so you can see my face and my hands fully in frame. I'm not using any calculator. I'm not using any paper or pen. But I am.

[Joe Saul Severson]

It's like Houdini.

[Paula Pant]

I am doing mental math in my head and apparently also in my hands. Because Heart DP says Paula is Using her air abacus.

[OG]

Somebody's got a good comment there. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

[Paula Pant]

So Jesse's was 134, 600. I'm sorry, Jesse. I'm gonna go 134, 599 and 99 cents.

[Jesse Kramer]

It's okay.

[Joe Saul Severson]

She takes the middle 134, 599 and 99 cents. And that means. Well, who knows what it means? We'll be right back. Friday on NBC. Jimmy Fallon and Bozma St. John host the incredible new competition show.

[OG]

I hired 10 creatives from all walks of life. They will be battling it out to see who can impress the world's biggest brands. This is a huge opportunity.

[Joe Saul Severson]

This is the battle for the next big idea.

[OG]

This is not Play Play. We're spending millions of dollars. I'm so excited to embark on this.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Adventure with all of you.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Maybe the best idea on Brand with Jimmy Fallon.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Friday on NBC.

[WhatsApp Announcer]

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[OG]

Yeah, this would have been a lot harder not knowing that the income tax. Did you guys both know the income tax was in 1913?

[Joe Saul Severson]

I took it out of the question and Doug put it back.

[OG]

I know. I'm just asking if they knew because I knew it.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, I had no idea.

[Paula Pant]

I knew that the income tax was passed right around the time there was something related to tariffs. And then we.

[OG]

So 2025ish.

[Paula Pant]

Yes. No, I was thinking like the Smoot Hatley tariffs. So I was thinking that era. The Hoot Tully era, the Smoot Hawley. Smoot Hawley.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Smoot Hawley.

[OG]

Yep.

[Joe Saul Severson]

The Terre Haute era. Is that what Jesse, you started this game off with 134,600. How you feeling now that Paula capped you at the kneecaps?

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, yeah, I feel about half as good as I felt before. That's okay.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Of course, just seeing the two of you in person, Paula, taking the under based on your relative sizes was. Was. Yes. Pretty good move. OG109,599. You got the big time downside. Lower portions. Feeling good. No, Paula, you've got the middle halfway between 134, 599 and 109, 599, whatever that number would be. Feeling good.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. You know, my actual guess, if I wasn't strategic about it, was about 125,000. So I. I feel good that my guess is kind of right close to there.

[Joe Saul Severson]

How many times in a row could your gut go wrong, Paula? That's. That's all we need to wonder. Well, we're not going to wonder for long. Doug's got the answer to this one. Doug, who's taken home this week's trophy.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Hey there, stackers. I'm lasagna lover and guy who's about to get yelled at by Joe after we stop recording. Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. Truly, I don't think there's anything wrong with goal setting or incentives, but when the incentive to lose weight is to get to eat more lasagna, you know, so I can gain it all back, I think we need a better plan. But I'm not in charge, am I? One thing I am in charge of is today's trivia. Answer the question. Was this. On today's date in history, the U.S. congress, under the new 16th Amendment, passed the income tax into law. They only taxed 1% of your income and only taxpayers earning more than $4,000 at the time, which was about 3% of the population back then. How much, according to my inflation calculator, would that income be in today's dollars? Well, piece of information you were looking for was that while revenue generating taxes were levied throughout the late 1800s, especially after the Civil War, you weren't even.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Looking for this because Doug already gave it to you.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

The one that stuck happened after the 16th Amendment passed into law with the Revenue act of October 3, 1913.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Oh, 1913 was the key piece of information that we were withholding. But then, weren't we withholding?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

I know you're having fun with this. I'm just going to keep on going using my inflation calculator. That means the answer is $17,362.04 more than what OG guessed. $7,638.96 less than what Jesse guessed. $7,638.$95 cents less than what Paula guessed because the correct answer is $126,961.04, making Paula our winner.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Wow.

[OG]

I'm gonna need a source document on this.

[Paula Pant]

Incredible. What's even more mind blowing about that is that my gut feeling of 125.

[Joe Saul Severson]

You were right there.

[Paula Pant]

Spot on. Wow.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Right there. How, how often does that happen?

[Paula Pant]

Wow. With the trivia new era, we're turning a new page.

[Joe Saul Severson]

What is going on here? Paula? Pant.

[Paula Pant]

Incredible. You know, I think FINCON marks a new year. So I think this is, this is new year. Yeah, New year. New coalition. Coalition victories all around.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Paul is at eight and a half. She wins three more times. Yeah, she's right there.

[Jesse Kramer]

Never say never.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yeah, here it comes. All right, let's get into the second half of our discussion today. And these are the missing pieces in financial plans according to Evan, the CFP in this Kiplinger piece that we'll link to in the show notes@Stack benjamin.com but as you've heard the first half, you really don't need it for this discussion, Evan. Next, notes that plans often avoid clear answers to the big questions. But people want to know like can I retire? Can I take that trip? And yet, Paula, we default to. Well, our Bunny Carlo simulation says you have a 68.75 chance that maybe you can. So good luck with that. What big money questions do you think people want to answer besides that one? Can I retire?

[Paula Pant]

What big money questions do people want answered? Yeah, I think at the heart of it, at the heart and soul, it's will I be okay? You know, I think that that's the emotional satisfaction that I think a lot of people are looking for. Am I going to be okay in my old age? When I'm in my 90s, will I be focused on health and family and spirituality or will I be stressed about money?

[Joe Saul Severson]

So if he's right here, Evan, then you've written Jesse about trading off risks, right? Why do you think so many plans dodge just giving a straight yes or.

[Jesse Kramer]

No answer for the big questions? I mean, when I, when I read this article, Joe, I, I assume that part three of this article is more theological than anything else. Is there a God? What happens after I die? Yeah, that's what I meant. I mean most financial planner doesn't answer that one. Hey, they don't want to step toes with the clergy, and so they avoid the question. I actually, I know, to be honest with you, I kind of disagreed with this one. Although devil's advocate, maybe it's going back to what Og said at the very beginning, which is if your quote unquote financial plan is only a portfolio, then yes, the portfolio is missing the answers to the big questions. Otherwise, if anything, what I would say is that most actual financial plans I've seen, they go straight into the big questions. Like, that's the easiest stuff to first target. It is. It's that person who presents a problem to you and says, I'm not sure if I'll be okay like Paula said. And the reason why is because I don't know if I can afford to retire at age 60 like I've always dreamed of. Well, boom, as a planner, like there's the question that you go after. So if anything, I. Like I said, I kind of disagree. Most plans have some answers to the big questions. What they might be missing is the more like minute, step by step stuff to get you there along the way. Anyway, that's my interpretation.

[Joe Saul Severson]

You're saying it says yes or no, but it doesn't say really clearly what you should do to get there. Yeah. Is that what you're saying?

[Jesse Kramer]

Well, what I'm saying is that it's not missing answers to the big questions. It has the answers to the big questions. So it would say, oh, yeah, you should feel really confident about retiring at age 60. And the reason why is because you'll have $2.2 million by then, plus some Social Security coming soon after, and we use a XYZ withdrawal rule and you'll be fine.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Oh, gee. I wanted to bring you into this because I'm thinking about this idea that, you know, often somebody's new to this stacker community and they started late and you need to give them the confidence to act. But by the same token, you want them to be realistic. So if the answer is no, you're not going to be okay Based on the goal that you gave me. How do you not scare the hell out of them and keep them rolling toward that big goal?

[OG]

Well, I think that when it comes to just general communication, you have to have a good mix of stress and not stress. Right. Certainty and uncertainty is what Tony Robbins would say. Even the most easiest financial plan in the universe. The person that's got 3 million bucks in a brokerage account and two social securities and a paid for house and a paid for cottage and spends $50,000 a year.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Right.

[OG]

You just Back of the envelope, go, yeah, you're good, right? You still have to go through what are the stresses around this? Because if you say to that person, you're good, man, you can't even screw this up. If you tried, they might try. And so you still have to put some guardrails there. I think if you're coming at it from the other side going, hey, I'm 50, I'm a little behind. I feel like I'm behind. I want it to be done at 60. I think our job is to present the facts the way that they are and then also say, here are the opportunities that you have to make this a reality, or here's kind of some common ground, right? It's not 60 or never. It's. Well, 60 is not happening, probably, but you might be able to do 62. And that's. If you do these three things, if that's kind of too far out of bounds, then you might be looking at 64 or 65, which also times out nicely because that's when Social Security can, you know, you can turn that on without too much of a, of a penalty. You know what I mean? Like, I think we have to provide hope and optimism in as much dosage as the realistic numbers and facts. It's the bedside manner, right? Like, we've all seen medical professionals that do this. They go, well, the test came back. Could you call my office as soon as you can? We need to talk.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Oh, God.

[OG]

And you're like, oh, my God.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yeah.

[OG]

And you call and you're like, oh, Doc, I got your messages. He goes, yeah, your tests, let me see here. Yeah. So they, they all came back. Very good, and we'll see you in a year. And you're like, I feel like you should have said that a lot differently on your message. You know, I've got my priest here. My wife is updating the will.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

You know, I hate when they also say your test came back negative. Wait, is negative good?

[OG]

Yes, exactly. You know, it's just so you got to have a little bit of that, too. This is a personal, a personality based business. It's a personal relationship, I think, you know, when you're looking for somebody to work with for a long time. People ask me this a lot, Jesse. I'm sure they ask you this, Joe. I know they did for you. What do you guys look for in clients? You go, oh, really rich ones. No, don't care. No, I want people that I want to hang out with for the next 20 years. That's it. Like, I just Want to be friends with people. And, like, along the way, we talk about money and make sure that everything stays on track. That's the goal. And if it's too much numbers based. I saw one of the comments was like, I'd love to be able to talk, you know, about the trips, but I need to have the reassurance with the numbers.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yeah, I did want to bring that up. I'm glad you brought that up.

[OG]

Yeah. That's your personality, I think, then if that's my job or that's Jesse's job, to say, hey, you know what? Let's spend as much time as you need on this so that you are comfortable. But I still want to reserve enough time to talk about why the hell we're doing all this, because you can't. I get that you can get excited about spreadsheets sometimes, but that just doesn't carry the same emotion as a picture from the top of Kilimanjaro does. I'm sorry, it doesn't. And so you need to have the confidence in the team that you have around you, and sometimes that's an investment in that math upfront to be able to go, okay, I. I know that, you know, these gals have it. These guys have it. I think it's so much of a personal relationship business that you're going to click with people, and you have to be able to shoot them straight and also put a little velvet on that from time to time. This is a bad idea. You know, I don't think you should have two Ferraris. One ought to be enough.

[Joe Saul Severson]

I like your emphasis on telling people not just you can't do this, but also saying, you know what? You can't do 60, but you can do 62. And we're going to start there, and here's how maybe we get back to 60. Like, here's. Here's the path forward that is showing.

[OG]

Them everything has to have some hope and optimism. Listen, it's like, you know, using the fitness analogy, you don't need to go to the fitness guy or gal and have that person go, wow, you are super fat. You are so out of shape, it's insane. I can't believe you can't lift anything. You're so weak. Your muscles suck. You're. You know, it's like, bro, I know. That's why I'm here. I don't need to get beat on the head anymore. I finally got to that spot myself. And so, you know, it's the same thing with your doctor, same thing with your financial Plan? Well, you show up in the office, my boy, you have a crapload of credit card debt, man. How are you even staying afloat, bro? Like, this is awful. You're probably never gonna retire. Like, I know, that's why I'm here. Like, I need some help. I don't need you to lay it on. Like, give me some love, man.

[Joe Saul Severson]

But that said, it's funny because I think, Paula, like, I love what OG saying, but I also think that you got to know yourself a little. Like, for me, you know, there's the carrot and the stick, right? For me, an advisor who gives me a little bit of that stick, they might not say, oh, gee, to your point, they might not go, man, you got a crapload of credit card debt. When people finally said to me, they're like, when are you going to face this? When are you actually going to face this?

[OG]

That's the personal relationship. You got to read the room and be able to deliver the message to the person in the manner in which they're going to hear it the best. Sometimes people do need this stick and sometimes they just go, tell me how you feel about this.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yeah, yeah, Paula, the stick really worked for me, I think. Is it about know you know yourself first.

[Paula Pant]

It's probably about the combination of carrot and stick. It's going to be situationally dependent. You know, it isn't that person A jives with one and person B jives with another. It's going to be time dependent. It's going to be situation dependent. It's going to also be dependent on the relationship between that person and their Advisor. So to OG's point, reading the room because there's never going to be the one size fits all, even with a given person.

[Joe Saul Severson]

No, to your point, the next thing that my advisor said when I was turning my life around was, you know what are you going to face this? Because if we start today, here's how we get. Here's where we go to. Here's what happens. And they showed me the carrot, which was how my life could be so much better. And it's funny going back to Jeff, who's the gentleman that OG was talking about online. Jeff said, specifically says, sometimes I wish I could let it go to look at the pictures and give it to somebody and spend those 28 to 30 minutes talking about the trips. For me, I need to understand the nitty gritty, be able to sleep well at night. But I'm odd. Here's what Jeff, for me, when I was a financial planner, I worked with a lot of engineers. And I loved working with engineers who wanted to know all the numbers. So initially, Paula, to your point, when we didn't have a relationship, when there was no relationship there yet, I would go ahead and go down the rabbit hole with them because I knew that the thing an engineer worries about more than anything is that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, that I have no idea. So I would go deeper and deeper and deeper, and then we get to the bottom of the well. And once I knew that Jeff knew that I knew what I was talking about, then I would turn to Jeff and I go, and you know what? None of this matters because you haven't saved a dime. And Jeff would then say, you're right. But I could only be right once he knew that I had the knowledge base behind me.

[Paula Pant]

Right.

[Joe Saul Severson]

To go deep on the numbers so that we could then look at the pictures.

[Paula Pant]

Well, and this goes back to the earlier comment about not wanting it to be two rainbows and unicorns and cotton candy. Like, there is a level, especially when you're talking about money, of needing to establish expertise, because money is a topic that is consequential and also a topic that is full of charlatans and salespeople who are trying to part others with their money and who claim to know things, but actually they're just. They just have very refined sales pitches. And so because of that, people's defenses are up, as they should be, which is why establishing that credibility is so critical.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Yeah, they only come down with relationship. Oh, gee. Our friend Roger Whitney says the same thing, that who he's looking for his clients are somebody he says, quote, to walk life with. Very similar to what OG says. And maybe, Jesse, the reason why you don't see the bad planning that Evan here in this piece seems to see is because you're not around those salespeople a lot. You're not around the. Just insurance salespeople or whatever.

[Jesse Kramer]

Yeah, it could just be right. I mean, the different. We don't have to get into the weeds of the different business models in our industry, but the ones that I'm familiar of that really are like the sales organizations, really sales driven. It tends to either have a specific product at the back end, like some sort of insurance product, or it might be more of that, like broker, dealer, commission model, where probably a minority of the clients are actually getting a financial plan done. The majority of them are probably only getting a portfolio built. So that could be it. I mean, that very well could be why. And I don't know about you, og, but when a client comes to me and they've worked with another advisor before, I will say a lot of the time the question comes up of, well, do you have some sort of financial plan that they put together for you, some document or just even in your head, you know what this advisor advised you on From a planning point of view, usually it's, it's pretty minimal, if anything at all. And it really just tends to be no, but here's what they did with my ira. Like, you know, here's the portfolio.

[OG]

Yeah.

[Jesse Kramer]

So yeah, I think that probably is the reason why.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Let's stick with you as we wrap this up. Jesse. I'd love everybody to have a take home task. Right. Something based on this discussion that they should do right away. What's one thing based on this conversation today? Our stacker should go out and make sure they have in their financial plan.

[Jesse Kramer]

I'm going to say for most stackers, estate planning documents, but maybe not all, but for most and definitely double check those beneficiary designations.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Love it.

[Paula Pant]

Paula, how about you think about the Black Swan events? I mean we talked about estate planning, which is of course a Black swan event, but think about the ultimate very short tail event. Yes, exactly.

[OG]

Ding.

[Paula Pant]

But generally there's a temptation to focus on budgeting, investing, all of the standard, like the most popular hallmarks of personal finance. Think about the Black Swan and Gray Swan events because those can derail a financial plan.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Oh, gee, you've got the final one. What's the third thing people should go do right away?

[OG]

Is this kind of like Doug's wrap up where he has two real serious ones and then one like.

[Joe Saul Severson]

No, no, you got to do a serious one too.

[OG]

Oh, dang it.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Bummer.

[OG]

Like I was going to say lots of small cap value, quarter point rate drop.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Get it?

[OG]

But who knew? I just think that understanding how all of the different areas of. If I were to say, you know, Jesse said that sometimes when he sees people, they don't necessarily have a clear understanding of what their plan was previously or you know, what it is. I would say that the biggest thing that I see is people don't understand how all the pieces work together because the decisions that you make in one particular area have additional effects with other things. We use taxes as an example. But if all you focused on was tax reduction strategies for today, you're just building up a bucket of tax problems later, right? You say, I'm gonna put all my money in IRAs and qualify plans pre tax, then I got this tax thing down the line, it doesn't mean that's bad. It's just knowing what that, that effect is. If I want safety and security and I love the idea of an annuity, you go, I want to put all my money in annuity. That sounds great. It's like, all right, cool. You got that safety and security. What else did you get with it? What are the secondary effects? You got illiquidity and returns. Doug said it, I can say it.

[Joe Saul Severson]

We get to be about two things.

[OG]

Yes. I think understanding how all the pieces, all the different areas. The CFP board says there's six different areas of financial planning. See how they all work together and how the impacts of one are going to lead to the impacts of the other. So very tactically for, for listeners, figure out, just, you know, figure out what your tax bill is going to be for next year. Just do it this, this quarter sometime. That I think would go a long way to, to making, making you start inner. Inner something. What am I looking for? Trying to Intersecting. Intersect.

[Jesse Kramer]

No intersecting.

[OG]

I'm trying to put together. Dovetail. Let's do that. We're going to dovetail our financial plan and our tax plan. We're going to just marry.

[Jesse Kramer]

Twining, interjoining, intertwining, intertwining.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Conjugal visiting.

[OG]

Easy.

[Jesse Kramer]

Wow.

[OG]

I was going to say it's us too. Doug's mommy, but then he went there.

[Joe Saul Severson]

And there it goes. All right, on that note, time for us to wrap this thing up. We're doing so well.

[OG]

Guys. Speaking of conjugal visits and Doug's mom. Let's wrap this up. OG's got a place to be. Unrelated.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Holy cow. Oh, gee. First weekend in October. What do you got going on this weekend?

[OG]

Same as every weekend, but this weekend I'm going to do it with a pumpkin spice latte.

[Joe Saul Severson]

That's fantastic. I wait till October because it is that time. Jesse, besides the pumpkin spice latte, what's going on at personal Finance for long term investors?

[Jesse Kramer]

October marks our first three episode. We're going to three episodes a month. And so we'll have an AMA every single month. An AMA episode. And this month comes out this next week. This weekend. Something like that.

[Joe Saul Severson]

It's a slippery slope, Jesse. Three a month. Three a month.

[Jesse Kramer]

I know it's a lot easy.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Before you know it, it's three a week. And you're wondering what the heck you monster you on this.

[OG]

What happened with the last 15 years? Why did I black out?

[Joe Saul Severson]

Paula, beginning of a new month. How do we start the New month at Afford Anything.

[Paula Pant]

So we start the new month, of course, with a first Friday episode. Because the first Friday of every month, we do a macroeconomic update of the economy. Interest rates, inflation, generally, what's going on in the economic headlines. So we always start the month with that. We have a Q and A episode, Joe, between you and I, where we answer questions from a variety of listeners, including a guy named Pedro who called with an update on a great update. Yeah, great update. He had previously asked us a question, we gave him some advice, he took it, and things went really well. So we. We air all of that. We also recently aired an interview with Andy Hill, our friend Andy Hill, the.

[Joe Saul Severson]

Andy Hill, my former neighbor.

[Paula Pant]

Exactly, exactly. Your former neighbor in Michigan. We talked about how he and his wife have created a lifestyle where they both work part time so that they can both be part time with their kids.

[Joe Saul Severson]

And it's great to see how that family dynamic works. They're so intentional about it, Paula. It's really cool.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Joe Saul Severson]

And that's at the Afford Anything podcast. All right, I want to say a final thank you to everybody hanging out with us live on YouTube. You guys were great as always. Paula, a lot of people here that are saying shocking things like, shocking, like, wow, what else?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

I'll be telling my grandchildren about this moment. I was there with Paula. One, finally, I'll always remember where I was.

[Paula Pant]

I mean, what's scarce is valuable.

[Joe Saul Severson]

That is true. All right, we should make an NFT to celebrate this moment, right? All right, everybody. We won't make an nft, unfortunately, but what we will do is what we do every Friday. We ask Doug to encapsulate this in our final three things. Doug, what should be on our to do list after today's episode?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

Well, Joe, first, take some advice from OG. You probably have more valuable ways to spend your time than diving into small cap returns and your portfolio. So next time you meet with your Planner, have a 29 minute PowerPoint with vacation picks on the ready. Second, take a note from Paula. Carrots are disgusting and sticks are dirty. I mean, maybe just figure it out for yourself so you don't need rainbows and unicorns and cotton candy. And if you can't take her advice and find a charlatan who can show you the path forward.

[Joe Saul Severson]

What are you talking about?

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

I think she said all of those things.

[Joe Saul Severson]

I think she had.

[Doug (Joe's mom's neighbor)]

She said all of those words. I know she did. But the big lesson when going for the lasagna, second helping, don't ask for permission. Just go for it. If you get Joe's mom talking about the time she saw ZZ Top live in 85, she won't even notice, trust me. Thanks to the Jesse Kramer for joining us today. You'll find his show Personal Finance for Long Term Investors wherever you're listening to us right now. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] thanks to Paula Pant for hanging out with us today. You'll find her fabulous podcast Afford Anything wherever you listen to Finer Podcasts. And finally, thanks also to OG for joining us. Looking for good financial planning help? Head to stackingbenjamins.comog for his calendar. This show is the property of SB Podcasts, LLC, Copyright 2025 and is created by Joe Saul Sehive. Joe gets help from a few of our neighborhood friends. You'll find out about our awesome [e-mail] along with the show notes and how you can find us on YouTube and all the usual social media spots. Come say hello. Oh yeah. And before I go, not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, and we'll see you next time back here at the Stacking Benjamin Show.