The Perfection Trap: Why Striving Less Might Help You Save More (SB1779)

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Stacking Benjamins Show

Episode: The Perfection Trap: Why Striving Less Might Help You Save More (SB1779)
Date: December 26, 2025
Host: Joe Saul-Sehy
Guests: Stephanie O’Connell Rodriguez (Money Confidential), Diana (Economy Conference), Len Penzo, Paulette Perhach

---

Overview:

This episode dives into the hidden costs of perfectionism—in finance, work, and life—and explores the freeing benefits of embracing “good enough.” The roundtable unpacks how the relentless drive for greatness can hold people back from making progress, cause procrastination, and even lead to burnout, especially when it comes to managing money. With signature humor and warmth, Joe Saul-Sehy and his co-hosts tackle the Outside Magazine article, "It's OK To Be Good And Not Great," discussing practical ways to move forward, celebrate small wins, and create systems that prioritize action over perfection.

---

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Perfectionism and Its Paralysis

[13:23] - The episode is sparked by Brad Stulberg’s Outside Magazine piece, asking: “Is it OK to be good and not great?”

• Paulette Perhach describes letting go of her morning routine to connect with a neighbor, embracing presence over rigid productivity:

  “It is this balance of presence and growth where it's like, I want to grow and do great things, but I also want to enjoy the present moment.” (13:23)

• Stephanie O’Connell Rodriguez shares how striving for “the best” can undermine authentic growth, advocating for a well-rounded, diversified life instead:

  "Perfection...is just really antithetical to growth that feels authentic and connected to your uniqueness.” (15:51)

2. Community vs. Competition

[18:46] - Paulette reframes striving for “the best” as sometimes antisocial:

“I truly started to really feel that I was in community when I didn’t need to be the best... striving to be the best, in a way, is antisocial behavior.”

• She recounts a South American strawberry-sellers’ community where no one aims to outshine the other, linking the idea to how creative communities thrive.

3. Letting Go & Delegation—Why “Jack of All Trades” Matters

[21:59] - Len Penzo distinguishes between striving for greatness and getting stuck chasing perfection, highlighting the value of being a “Jack of all trades”:

“Be great, but don't try to be perfect... You're never going to be perfect. Mistakes help you grow and are part of life.”

• Delegation is emphasized—knowing when to outsource or ask for help instead of inefficiently doing everything alone.

  “Jacks of all trades are very important people. They're not experts at anything, but they're good at knowing what to do and who to contact.” (21:59)

4. Perfectionism in Leadership & Event Planning

[25:07] - Diana describes crumbling under self-imposed pressure while organizing the Economy Conference, only to realize that letting tasks go didn’t harm the end result:

“I felt like I was failing... But then I showed up to the event and guess what? It was fine. Better than fine. It was awesome.” (26:37)

• She recognizes overcomplicating things and missing the joy in her work, learning to prioritize relationships over minutiae.

5. Procrastination: When the Drive for “Perfect” Stops Us From Starting

[40:08]

• Stephanie admits:

  “I am incredibly unproductive. This idea of having to be great and perfect is often conflated with productivity and hustle culture.”

• The group discusses tools for overcoming inaction:
  • External deadlines and constraints
  • “Body doubling” (having an accountability partner physically present)
  • Redefining procrastination as potentially productive reflection and rejecting shame

6. Constraints: Help or Hindrance?

[43:55]

• Constraints and deadlines help creatives and entrepreneurs finish work by forcing decisions:

  “An artist without constraints will never get anything done.” (Joe referencing producer Don Hahn; 44:30)

---

Money & Perfectionism: Practical Takeaways

7. Financial Paralysis & Small Steps Forward

[48:47]

• Many people freeze financially, feeling not “great” with money, which blocks progress (not starting a savings account, opening a Roth IRA, etc.).
• Len:

  “If you want to invest in something you’re not good at, delegate out... Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.”

• Paulette and Stephanie advocate for automation, support groups, robo-advisors, and focusing on behavior rather than labeling oneself as “bad with money.”

8. Identity vs. Behavior

[53:19]

• Stephanie notes that people see financial struggles as a reflection of their worth, making change difficult:

  “Every moment is an opportunity for a new behavior. If you internalize money struggles as your identity, it's very hard to make changes.”

• She encourages clients to find what they’re doing right, no matter how small, and build from there.

9. Curiosity Over Shame; Progress Over Perfection

• Diana’s “let curiosity be bigger than fear” mantra is echoed: Confronting financial realities—even uncomfortable ones—creates the space for positive action.

10. Work From Strength, Not Just Fixing Flaws

[56:48]

• Joe shares a lesson from Strategic Coach:

  “If you're always working on the things that you suck at, you might come up to the middle. If you work at what you're great at, you'll have exponential results.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Stephanie O’Connell Rodriguez [15:51]:

  “Disconnect the idea of striving from the idea of being the best.”

• Diana [26:37]:

  “I overcomplicate my work. A bunch of the stuff that I think I have to do, I actually don’t have to do it.”

• Len Penzo [21:59]:

  “Jacks of all trades are very important people... They’re not experts at anything, but they’re good at knowing what to do and who to contact.”

• Paulette Perhach [52:16]:

  “Buffalo know that if a storm is coming, they run toward the storm because they'll get through it faster... you have to run toward the storm and be willing to say, ‘I really struggle with this and I need help.’”

• Stephanie O’Connell Rodriguez [53:19]:

  "If you attribute your money habits or outcomes to your identity, it’s very hard to make changes."

---

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 13:23 – Is striving to be great wrong? Presence vs. growth (Paulette)
• 15:51 – Authentic growth vs. perfection and happiness as a metric (Stephanie)
• 18:46 – Community vs. competition and the value of being "one of many" (Paulette)
• 21:59 – Letting go of perfection and the importance of delegation (Len)
• 25:07 & 26:37 – Event anxiety, letting go, and the power of showing up (Diana)
• 40:08 & 41:40 – Procrastination, external deadlines, and giving yourself grace (Stephanie)
• 44:30 – Constraints forcing completion in creative work (Joe referencing Don Hahn)
• 48:47 – Letting go of needing to be great with money; automation and delegation
• 53:19 – Identity vs. behavior in money management (Stephanie)
• 56:48 – Leveraging your strengths versus constantly fixing your flaws (Joe)

---

Takeaways

1. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. Progress—especially with money and personal growth—often happens when we embrace “good enough” and just start.
2. Find the joy in the process, not just the outcome. Growth is more satisfying than the pursuit of perfection.
3. Delegate, automate, and ask for help. Outsourcing and accountability are powerful tools to overcome procrastination and perfectionist paralysis.
4. Work from your strengths and positive behaviors. Building on what you do well is more impactful and enjoyable than constantly trying to fix your weaknesses.
5. Curiosity is your ally. Let curiosity—not shame—lead you to uncover and address what’s holding you back in your financial life.

---

Original Tone & Humor

The hosts pepper the show with banter, self-deprecating jokes, and playful ribbing—especially around topics like junk mail, DoorDash, and the perils of KFC delivery. The group keeps a light, encouraging tone, emphasizing that everyone struggles with these issues and that small, imperfect actions are still worth celebrating.

---

For more, check out Stephanie’s Webby-winning podcast “Money Confidential” and Diana’s Economy Conference at economyconference.com (discount code provided for Stackers).

---

Transcript

[Kevin Harlan]

This is Kevin Harlan. Tonight, the NBA on Prime crew is back with another action packed doubleheader. The night starts when Jaylen Brown and the Celtics go toe to toe with Pascal Siakam and the Pacers. Then James Harden and the Clippers take on the Portland Trail Blazers. If you're not a Prime member, just sign up for a 30 day free trial. The Celtics and Pacers, the Clippers and Blazers coverage starts tonight at 7pm Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com.com Amazon prime for details.

[Joe Salsihai]

This message is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union is a credit union dedicated to serving all veterans, active duty and their families. We know that during the holiday season every little bit counts. And that's why for a limited time you could earn a $250 cash bonus when you spend 2,500 on the cash rewards and cash rewards plus cards in the first 90 days. Now stackers, you know not to get into credit card debt, but if you were going to spend $2,500 anyway, an extra $250 goes a long way. Give joy. Get joy. Join now@navy federal.org Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. Visit Navy federal.org cashrewards for details. Cash back terms and conditions apply. Offer ends 112026 Happy Holiday Week everyone. I hope you're enjoying your holiday season. We're in the middle of a holiday extravaganza of shows and now going to kick off not just today but every day next week special Stacky Benjamin's episodes. We are going back into the vault to 2023 and looking at our best shows of 2023. And the reason for that is to show you how evergreen some of these topics are. Even though markets have changed, we still very much feel the same way. And and this one guys, is from May of 2023. And and this topic is is being great holding you back? And I don't know the quote being being great. Yeah. Trying to be a perfectionist of at everything. I don't have we ever said that about Doug Og once. Oh, being a perfectionist. Oh, I thought you meant like since I'm so great, is that holding me back? Yeah, I thought yeah. Yeah, it is. Obviously. Well, we had a fantastic discussion about this back in May. By the way, how was your Christmas holiday? It was great. Yeah. Everybody in town and then we got on a plane and went to go see go see the other side of the family for a couple days. So that's fantastic. So that's Doug, how about you last off and come back?

[Kevin Harlan]

Yeah. Both boys home. So just had a great time chilling out with them, catching up on some old movies that I still feel like they need to catch up on the classic.

[Joe Salsihai]

So when they're home we look for so great to watch. I know this is shocked both of you. Both of you. We play board games. I know you'll find that games, Joe. Weird. It was so strange. It's like the most wonderful time of the year. I'm sure Andy, Andy Williams was thinking about board games when he recorded that song. You'll play all the board games in more, more, more board games. I don't know. All right, just a moment. We're going to talk about being great in 2026 and maybe just getting more done in 2026. So sit back and relax. We've got a couple sponsors who help us keep on keeping on. We're going to hear from them and then we're hitting the wayback machine here in holiday week 2025. Have a great weekend everybody. And we'll be back with more on Monday.

[Kevin Harlan]

This is Kevin Harlan. Tonight, the NBA on Prime crew is back with another action packed double header. The night starts with Jaylen Brown and the Boston Celtics going toe to toe with Pascal Siakam and the Indiana Pacers. Then James Harden and the Los Angeles Clippers head to Portland to take on Shadyn Sharp and the Portland Trail Blazers. It all comes your way tonight on Prime. And if you're not a Prime member, that's not a problem. Sign up for a 30 day free trial to get started today. The Celtics and Pacers, the Clippers and Blazers coverage starts tonight at 7pm Eastern only on Prime. Restrictions apply. See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details.

[Joe Salsihai]

Hey folks, let me ask you a serious question. Did you know that driving high is considered driving under the influence? That's right. Driving under the influence of marijuana is against the law in every state. That means even in states where marijuana is legal, that means driving high could get you a dui. And if you think law enforcement officers can't tell when you're driving high, well, my friend, you're wrong. If you're high, they can tell. Your friends can tell. Your co workers can tell. Even your parents can tell. Everyone can tell. So what makes you think that law enforcement officers don't know when you're driving high? You'd be wrong. They can tell too. Driving under the influence of marijuana can slow your response time and change how you perceive time and speed. So even if you think you're Fine to drive when you're high.

[Len Penzo]

You're not.

[Joe Salsihai]

Because the bottom line is, if you feel different, you drive different. And driving high is driving under the influence. So remember, drive high. Get a dui. Paid for by nhtsa.

[Kevin Harlan]

Hello there, Peabody here. And this is the Wayback Machine.

[Joe Salsihai]

We're traveling through time.

[Kevin Harlan]

And this is my boy, Sherman.

[Joe Salsihai]

Speak, Sherman. Hello.

[Kevin Harlan]

Good boy.

[Diana]

Live from Joe's mom's basement, it's the Stacking Benjamin show. I'm Joe's mom's cousin, Diana, and is trying to be great holding you back in life. Maybe more than you think. So let's chat about it. Joining us today, we welcome a woman who talks about everyone's confidential money issues, Stephanie o' Connell Rodriguez. Plus, let's say hello to the first and only man to free solo. El capitan. It's. Nah, I'm just kidding. The only thing this guy free solos is trips to the fridge. It's just Lin Penzo. And finally, a woman who's no stranger to money adventures, Writer extraordinaire, Paulette Perhach. But that's not all. Halfway through the show, I'll share my reach out and touch someone trivia question. And now, a guy who never shies away from a money conversation. It's Joe Salsihai.

[Joe Salsihai]

Hey there, stackers. I might. I might shy away from it. Diane, if it's the reach out, touch somebody money conversation, might not want a piece of that. Welcome to Friday on the Stacky Benjamin show, where we have a nice roundtable chat about a topic that's in the popular press. And before we get there in today's topic, let's say hello to everybody around the table. We'll start with our. Well, we'll have our guest of honor go last. Let's say hi to the guy who's deep under Los Angeles in his bunker. Mr. Len Penzos here. How are you, man?

[Len Penzo]

Well, I'm doing pretty good. I've. I'm a little disappointed.

[Joe Salsihai]

I've.

[Len Penzo]

It's. Apparently doordash doesn't deliver to bunkers one stop. They've actually just refused it. They just actually refused to deliver now. So I actually have to get out of the bunker and actually go to the darn Wienerschnitzel and get my corn dogs there.

[Joe Salsihai]

What is this, 2012? I mean, come on, what are we doing? It's like the old days. Remember, we had to actually go out to get our food lent. Remember we had to do. What are we, hunters and gatherers?

[Len Penzo]

You know, I know people that did they live by doordash Now, I had doordash the other day. I got Kentucky Fried Chicken, and now I'm dropping all these names. I had Kentucky Fried Chicken. I got it for me and my daughter. I didn't feel like leaving. And, you know, it was like, $70 for a few pieces of chicken and some mashed potatoes.

[Joe Salsihai]

And. And you're not kidding. This isn't a dad joke. I thought. I thought there was a joke coming.

[Len Penzo]

No, there's no joke there. I mean, I just spent. I couldn't believe it. I was like, geez Louise, you know, Was that really worth saving on my couch?

[Joe Salsihai]

70. 70. 70 bucks. Let's say hello to Paulette, perhaps, who is here. How are you, Paulette?

[Diana]

Hi.

[Paulette Perhach]

I'm doing great. Yeah. The number of times I've gotten to that last screen and has been like, no, Paulette, no, we're not doing that. No, no, no.

[Joe Salsihai]

But are you like Len, where you're dropping all the big restaurant names like Kentucky Fried Chicken?

[Paulette Perhach]

Well, I mean, I'm sorry. We're not. All of us can be Len Penzos getting people to bring us Kentucky Fried Chicken. Easy, easy. Money bags.

[Joe Salsihai]

Mr. Extra Crispy himself. Yeah. By the way, Diana, hello to you.

[Paulette Perhach]

Hello.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Hello.

[Joe Salsihai]

Fantastic introduction. I heard from somebody that next year's economy conference. Say this isn't true. It is. Tickets have only been sale short time, and you are rocking sales. Oh, yeah.

[Diana]

They are selling like hotcakes. Even just today, I found out that one of our hotel blocks. So we partner with two hotels. One of our hotel blocks sold out in one day.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's amazing. Yeah.

[Paulette Perhach]

I was at campfi and so many people were saying great things about it because everyone had just been there and then came, and there was a lot of really great talk about it. Awesome.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, we had so much fun. I highly recommend it if you want to hang out with other money nerds. And it's what, economy conference dot com. Right, Diana?

[Diana]

That's right.

[Joe Salsihai]

Awesome. And if you listen to the end of the show, we might give people a little something something. But we've got the something something here with us now. It's about time. She's here for the Money Confidential podcast, which, by the way, won a flipping webby. Stephanie o' Connor Rodriguez is here. How are you?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I'm so good, and I'm so hungry from this conversation. I probably get more delivery than anybody here combined.

[Joe Salsihai]

Is it all Kentucky Fried Chicken, Stephanie?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I. I don't. I'm vegetarian. I'm really into Indian.

[Joe Salsihai]

I really should. I should.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

By the end of the episode, it'll be here. It'll be a whole thing.

[Joe Salsihai]

Be great. And only you'll have to refinance your house, take out two new credit cards just to get it correct. Yes.

[Len Penzo]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, congratulations on the Webby. Like I told you on social media, that is just so kick ass because I feel like you've worked your ass off on this show, and it's great to see the recognition. That's amazing.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Well, thank you for being on the show.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's probably why you won. That's probably why.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Obviously, why else?

[Joe Salsihai]

I was sure I was gonna destroy it. I'm like, you sure you want me? You sure you want me? For the people that haven't listened yet, though, talk about what you do, it's with Real simple magazine.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Yeah. So Real simple magazine hired me to co create and produce the show where we talk to people about their money issues confidentially while they're experiencing them. So if they have a question about something, they come on and they say, hey, you know, I have a 35, 000 credit card debt that I haven't told my partner about, and I'm not really sure how to have that conversation. And you know how these conversations go when you dig deeper behind the numbers. It's a lot more than numbers on the page that we wind up talking about. It's feelings of worthiness and relationships and what expectations are and who we are as good people or moral people and what our money says about that. And so it's a lot of disentangling these feelings and, you know, the real circumstances of how money shows up in our life. And then in the second half of each episode, I get to have people like you on Jo who come on and say, hey, here's how this really breaks down. According to the numbers or according to the law. If we're talking about divorce, for example, or if we're talking about psychology, we'll talk with somebody who's an expert in that. So it's such a treat for me because I always consider myself, you know, a facilitator of conversations. I don't have all the answers, but I want to bring in all of the perspectives and people who do, and that's what we do on the show.

[Joe Salsihai]

You're such a great interviewer, and just your natural curiosity really shows in the show. So everybody should pause this right now. Go subscribe to the podcast, because it's incredible. I'm so happy, happy you're here with us. Today. We're going to talk about a piece from Outside magazine, which is not A place where we usually get financial stuff, which is why it's one of my favorites that we've talked about. Is it okay to be good and not great at something? Sometimes we put, especially with money, put a lot of pressure on ourselves. We have Stephanie Okada Rodriguez here. Finally, Diana, Mario, Paulette, Perh. Len Penzo. So let's get moving. As I mentioned ahead of time, our piece is from Outside magazine. This is a well written piece that we'll link to in our show Notes by Brad Stahlberg. The headline is it's okay to be good and not great. What if striving to be great is what's holding you back? And Paulette, let's start with you. Do you agree with that premise? Is striving to be great wrong? Is it okay to just go, eh, gonna kind of be just okay at this?

[Paulette Perhach]

You want to talk about how I actually am or how I think I should be?

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, no, let's talk about how you think you should be, actually. That's because we all are striving.

[Paulette Perhach]

I was actually just talking about this with my writing group. A very important meeting where, you know, I said, this morning I went outside to write my morning pages, get my light photons per Dr. Huberman and my eyeballs first thing. And, you know, I'm writing, I'm two and a half pages in. Then I'm supposed to have my meditation. And my neighbor walked outside and he's been in Africa for two months doing his like, stuff studies. And like, we started having this great conversation. I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna like, ditch a little bit of my morning routine to like, have this conversation with him right now. Because this feels like real life. This morning I did the same thing. I walk my friend's 3 year old to school with her sometimes. And like, I just learned he's not gonna be going to that school next year. So like, this is a thing we do this year only. And I was like, oh, I gotta like soak this up, you know. So it is this balance of presence and growth where it's like, I want to grow and I want to do great things, but I also want to enjoy the present moment. So in the best case scenario, you feel that balance.

[Joe Salsihai]

I've seen your calendar, Paulette. Your calendar says you are striving to be flipping awesome all the time. And we see it in your writing. But do you find yourself then disappointed because sometimes you take the break? Do you feel disappointment in taking the break?

[Paulette Perhach]

No, I think because it's like, I Love Jocko Willink. He's like the human opposite of me. And one of his phrases is, discipline equals freedom. And I think because I'm disciplined.

[Joe Salsihai]

Ish.

[Paulette Perhach]

And I write every day.

[Joe Salsihai]

Ish.

[Paulette Perhach]

And I work out every day.

[Joe Salsihai]

Ish.

[Paulette Perhach]

When I do take the break, it doesn't matter that much because I am playing that habit long game. When I'm in my the best of me, my best self says, like, this is good enough, right? And like, I want to. Mostly I want to enjoy my life. And there are so many books coming out right now from especially a few women talking about how, like, success is not this thing that really you want to go for. Like, we want growth, but really it's the journey there.

[Joe Salsihai]

Stephanie, you've always seemed just as somebody from afar who sometimes puts a lot of pressure on yourself to do great things. Things. Do you find that striving to be great is. Is good or bad?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I have found what for me is really ideal, which is that I have a lot of striving, I have a lot of ambition, but I'm also very happy and I'm very content. And I think it took me a long time to figure out what that took. And part of it was really disconnecting this idea of striving from the idea of being the best. I think the idea of the best or perfection, whether it's in our money or in our careers or wherever space we're in, is just really antithetical to growth that feels authentic and connected to your own uniqueness and your own strengths and finding the things that you value. And I also find that it's a very narrow view. To Paulette's point, success is not one metric. And I have found that when we get caught up on a singular metric, instead of having a well diversified portfolio, if you have it, of things that bring us meaning and joy, that's when things get really out of balance. So I'm always considering, you know, not striving to be the best at the things I love so much as, how do I build life? How do I build a lifestyle that I love? And that's not solely comprised of my financial success. It's not solely comprised of my career. It's not solely comprised of my relationship or my social circle. If my entire identity was on one of those things, whether it was my money or my relationship, that would be a problem. I would have a lack of diversification. Oftentimes this conversation, especially these days, is often presented in a binary that, like, ambition isn't working and it's burning People out. And so we should not be that. And I think it's flawed. I think what we really need to be is, you know, disconnecting from this idea of perfection or the best. And I think we need to be more well rounded in the way we build towards the things we're striving toward.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, I'm going to want to talk more about that in a second. But first, you have a background. I'm just realizing you have a background in acting and in the theater, too, right?

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

And that has really informed a lot of my perspective.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, no, what I'm saying is, is that the bad stuff you talked about at the beginning of your discussion on this, I mean, how much rejection do you go through? And you've no idea. So I feel like you're always like, how am I the best? How do I make sure I'm better? How am I better? I got to be better. I got to be. And you're not better for you as much as you're better for whoever this arbiter of, you know, who's giving the part out is. That's gotta. I know that only secondhand because I worked in television and our anchors on TV were always like that. They're always looking behind them, looking for the stab in the back.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Well, and that's exactly it. Right. The best is also just an arbitrary metric. Right. If you've work in creative spaces, even what we're doing here, what is the best?

[Joe Salsihai]

Probably this episode right now, Us, obviously.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

This exact moment in this exact episode.

[Paulette Perhach]

And I just wanted to add that, like, I truly started to really feel that I was in community when I didn't need to be the best. Right. Striving to be the best, in a way, is antisocial behavior. Right. Where like. Like, I remember where I lived in South America, everyone would kind of have the same. Like, if you saw like 20 strawberry stands, they would be like, everyone would be the same. And we're like, what about writing, like, the best strawberry stand? And they were like, well, that would be really rude to my neighbor to say that. Right. So instead of being like, I personally want to be the best, like writing in a writing group and having a writing community, you can see yourself as like, instead of like a singular flower in a vase, like, I need to be the very best one, one of many flowers in a field of flowers, and to truly feel joy when your friends succeed and people make beauty, and just being a part of that bigger ocean and just a small wave in it and not being so egocentric and I go back and forth, you know, where, like, everyone's announcing their book deals and stuff like that. Again, like when I'm. When it's two seconds after I've meditated, I'm like, in the flow and everything. And then, of course, we fall back into ego. And then being in community really helps, so.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, I think part of the issue there, Paulette, is that it is a fine line. I mean, on some way, you want to strive to be good at what you do. I want this to be a quality product that I bring to the world at the same time. But at the same time, the collaborative nature of what we're doing here now means that you want to be a flower in the field. You know, to use your analogy. I use that analogy all the time. Joe wants to be a flower in the field. That's my goal.

[Paulette Perhach]

Beautiful flower.

[Joe Salsihai]

Len, I was going to ask you, you know, Paulette is an entrepreneur. Stephanie is, but I don't know. Are you an entrepreneur? Do you work for Real Simple? Are you hired by. How does that work?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I'm a contractor, so yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah. So you are an entrepreneur. Len, you're a guy, as an aerospace engineer, your entire career working in a field with other people, striving to be great. Where did this piece hit you? What do you think about striving to be great vers versus, you know, being okay with maybe not being well?

[Len Penzo]

I think it's okay to strive to be great. I mean, that's natural human desire. I think we all want to be as great as possible. The key is to not try to be perfect and being good, you know, so be great, but don't try to be perfect, because that can actually, you know, you'll never get to be perfect. But a lot of people try to be perfect, and I think they confuse the two. So, you know, you got to jump in there and you got to just start going. The role to even becoming great, you got to start. You're probably not even going to be good to begin with. But if you don't get going, you'll never get to great. So don't be afraid to jump in there and make mistakes. And a part of that process, you know, mistakes aren't a bad thing. People tend to think, oh, you know, I might make a mistake. Well, you know what you're going to learn from that mistake? That mistake helps you grow, and it helps you get better. And it's not bad. It's just. It's part of life. It's part of the process, and it's something you have to do and not be afraid of.

[Joe Salsihai]

But I feel like the job that you worked in, you know, you can't say it's just one rocket. Who cares if it went down?

[Len Penzo]

Like, let me tell you something. There are different people in life. There are. There are what we'll call the experts, the masters of certain things. And then there are other people who are just as important, and they're the jack of all. You've heard the term jack of all trades, master of none. But those people are important, too. Those are people who have actually learned to delegate. Refer to the masters, but in the goal of getting something done, getting a project completed, you're the one who knows who to go to and how to get them to do what you need to do. Jacks of all, trade, masters of none are very important people. And they're not experts at anything. They're not great at anything, but they're good at knowing what to do and who to contact.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, you need that person who's the connector. I mean, people that are great at connecting the pieces of people who are great.

[Len Penzo]

Well, yeah, you have to know that, because I see a lot of people that make mistakes. They don't know how to delegate, and they fail because they don't know. They try to take on jobs that they should be delegating and you'd be much more. You have to make that decision. Is it more efficient for me to try and jump into this project and do a certain task on my own and learn it on the fly, or should I delegate it? I mean, you can lose money by not. It's cheaper to delegate certain things than try and take it on yourself. So it's a balance. You have to kind of measure things.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think that's funny, Len, because especially finance nerds, right? We're like, no, I'm not going to spend money in that. I'll just go ahead and do it. And it is funny. I'm smiling because I was part of a swim club with my kids. They swam on this as local, you know, community pool. And I was in charge of a certain area. And I remember the club president going, hey, Joe, how's this thing coming? I'm like, oh, I got to do this, this, this, this. And he literally. I was good friends with him, and he was an older guy, puts his arm around me and goes, joe, when I put you in charge of it, that didn't mean I wanted you to do it. And I went, yes, duh.

[Paulette Perhach]

I. This is my number one soapbox, especially with my writer friends. Who are in their 40s and 50s, writing for the New Yorker, killing it and doing every single thing themselves.

[Joe Salsihai]

I'm like, let some of it go. Let's let. Yep, let some of it go. Diane, I want to turn to you.

[Len Penzo]

For a second though.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, Len, I was going to say.

[Len Penzo]

It'S hard for some people. Some people think they have to do it. Controlling people, they've got to be in charge of everything. And they're actually doing themselves a disservice. Yeah, you do. You have to let go.

[Joe Salsihai]

I actually hear a late night radio talk show host, guys. He was a financial show. It's, it's long off the air. Bruce Williams was his name some of our listeners might remember. Bruce was just fantastic host. He always talked about the power of delegation, about how far are you going to get if you only have these two hands? You're not going to get anywhere. And even if it's done worse, it's done. I mean, at least you're, you're making moves. You can't do anything if you just rely on those two hands. Diane, I want to turn to you for a second because I think about pressure in your life to be great. First of all, you bring out this conference different than what anybody else has created. So the first year there's some pressure to not suck. Right. I would think, because every, all the eyes are on you, but after that you're totally fine. And then, and then, but no but then Paul let up thinking then after year number one, what happens? You nail it. And so in year number two, be like, okay, how's she gonna beat that? And then of course, now you've got these sign ups like every. I feel like the pressure doesn't go away.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

How do you, how are you okay with good and not great?

[Diana]

Well, this is so interesting that we're talking about this today because I think, you know, we just came out of my third event that happened last, you know, last month, March. And leading up to it, I crumbled under that pressure and I was not doing well. I saw you, Joe.

[Joe Salsihai]

I saw you at Pod Fest.

[Diana]

Yeah, I was not doing well.

[Joe Salsihai]

And you told me that you weren't doing well. And you could see it all over you. It was. I just wanted to give you a big hug as a friend. I just felt so.

[Diana]

But you know, I did it to myself because it was this self imposed pressure and I, I think that I just feel such a sense of responsibility to people that are, they're spending a lot of time and money, they're finding Childcare for their kids, they're coming for, they're flying to Cincinnati. You know, 70% of our audience comes from afar. It's not a local event, it's a national conference. I do it mostly by myself.

[Joe Salsihai]

Now.

[Diana]

I have figured out different areas that I can outsource. But here's the thing that shocked me. I felt like I was failing. The last five months leading up to the event, I basically didn't do anything. Like 90% of the stuff on my to do list that I thought I really had to do, I didn't do it because I crumbled under the pressure. And then I showed up to the event and guess what? It was fine. And it was better than fine. It was awesome.

[Joe Salsihai]

It was magical.

[Diana]

What that says to me is that I overcomplicate my work. And a bunch of the stuff that I think I have to do, I actually don't have to do it because I didn't do it and it turned out fine. And so I am really processing that now and trying to approach my work differently in challenging the assumptions that I have. When I put something on my to do list. These things that we think that we have to do, do we really. What would happen if we just didn't do those things? Maybe you'll show up to your work and it'll turn out fine. And what I realized about this event, first of all, this community is incredibly generous and friendly and open hearted and a really close friend that I actually just hired as my coach, she said to me two months before the event, all the people want is to gather together and be together in community. And you've already done that. You have a venue, you have a schedule, you sold tickets, you've got speakers. The work is already done. Nobody cares about your perfectionist. Like making sure the footprints from the. I mean, people do like the footprints from the hotel.

[Joe Salsihai]

I do like footprints, but.

[Diana]

No but like, if they Weren't placed perfectly 10ft apart, no one would notice that. Right? It's like I get so wrapped up in these details that in the grand scheme of things don't matter. What matters is relationships. I think I am just coming to this place of really finding a lot more joy in my work because I'm prioritizing the right things now and it's the people.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think that's a great place to leave this discussion for a moment. In the second half of this discussion, what I really want to do, now that we define the problem, how it can be a problem for us, I think we've alluded to some of our solutions. But we'll talk about fighting through procrastination, about how we get stuff done and can we if we don't think we're good with money? Right. That's an area where we think we have to be great. How do we duct tape that? Like, what are the parts that matter? And how do we get through that without having to feel like we're a money genius? But before we get to that, at the halfway point of every Friday show, we have this year long competition going on between our three frequent contributors, Paulette, perhaps Len Penzo and OG. Stephanie, today you're playing the part of OG. I'm so happy you're here and not OG for I did. I won't say that with him around. However, between us, with nobody listening to the show, I've got some good news and some bad news for you. Stephanie, which one would you like first?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Bad, always first.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, the bad news is, is that although OG has won the last two years in a row this competition, he is in place and somehow. Well, I know why. Because Paula Pant hasn't been here for a while and she's perennially in last place. Paulette's taken charge. She has five. Len Penzo has five. Oh gee, has four. Which means Len, since you've taken second the last two years in a row, Len's going to go have to guess first. Paulette, you're guessing in the middle and Stephanie, then you get to guess last.

[Paulette Perhach]

All righty.

[Joe Salsihai]

All right, so we need a trivia question. Diana, what do we got today?

[Diana]

Hey there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's cousin Diana, and today we're talking about how being good with where you're at can lead to great things. Speaking of great accomplishments, on this day in history, an American inventor, Nathan Beverly Stubblefield, who described himself as a practical farmer, fruit grower and electrician. We sure this isn't Lynn Penza was the first person to patent a wireless phone. I wish I could tell you that he made tons of Benjamins off his patent. But although he was first getting his phone to market, wasn't his strong suit and he later went into seclusion, where he died. On the bright side, his work is getting a shout out on the Stacking Benjamin show, so he's got that going for him. My question for you is what year was the first wireless phone patented? I'll be right back after I ask Joe's mom if she's got any empty green bean cans and some string that's gonna go well.

[Joe Salsihai]

I figured out. Did you guys do that as a kid? Stephanie, did you do that as a kid?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I have no idea what you're referencing.

[Joe Salsihai]

You took a little can and you took some string. And if you stretched it. Oh, the tension in the line would make it so you could hear each other. My brother and I would do this.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I caught up on the green beans. Okay, I know what you're talking about now.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yes. Yes.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I don't eat green beans from a can. Fy.

[Joe Salsihai]

She's like. And pass. Hard pass. Well, good news is the cans already empty. So you get to. You get to do that. Anybody do that? Len, you must have done that.

[Len Penzo]

Oh, of course. Yes, absolutely.

[Joe Salsihai]

That.

[Len Penzo]

Actually, that was my actual phone back in.

[Joe Salsihai]

Back in college. 2021.

[Len Penzo]

No, back in my college days. Yeah, that was the only thing I could afford.

[Joe Salsihai]

So, Len, you are first. The wireless phone. Yeah.

[Len Penzo]

Well, something tells me there was a patent. Was done many, many, many, many moons ago. I'm gonna say 1941.

[Joe Salsihai]

1941. Product of the war. A wartime invention, Len?

[Len Penzo]

Maybe. Yeah, maybe.

[Joe Salsihai]

Maybe. Paulette, what do you think?

[Paulette Perhach]

Wireless phone. So it didn't have to work. It just had to be the idea for it.

[Joe Salsihai]

If it's a patent, it's just the idea. Yeah.

[Paulette Perhach]

I will go 1951.

[Joe Salsihai]

1851. So Stephanie got this 10 year field goal there.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Yeah. Is there a Price is Right situation here?

[Joe Salsihai]

There is not. There used to be. And believe it or not, Stephanie, we had some stackers get angry. They're like, I don't like the Price is Right thing. Stephanie would say the year one. I'm gonna go with the year one. Right.

[Len Penzo]

It's the little.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Go with that. I don't know anything about this stuff. I'll just go all on a limb and say 1960.

[Joe Salsihai]

1960. All right, we've got them locked in 1941, 1951 and 1960. We'd love to tell you who's right, but we don't play that way. We will be right back.

[Diana]

What if you could actually see your path to retiring? With Bolden, you can model your entire financial future. Try different scenarios. See the impact instantly, and find the plan that gets you there faster. Start [e-mail] Plan your retirement simplified.

[Joe Salsihai]

This message is sponsored by Navy Federal Credit Union. As the holiday season rolls around, we know that you strive to do everything you can to bring cheer and joy to your loved ones. And as a credit union dedicated to serving all veterans, active duty and their families, we understand that every little bit counts. That's why? For a limited time, you could earn a 250 cash bonus when you spend $2,500 with Navy Federal's cash rewards and cash rewards plus cards in the first 90 days. Of course, Stackers, this is part of a big financial plan, right? Don't get yourself into debt. Make sure that you are spending and saving with a plan. But you know what? The giving doesn't stop there. You could also earn up to 2% unlimited cash back with these cards. So saving up for whatever the season brings just got a little easier. Give joy. Get joy. Join now@navy federal.org Navy Federal Credit Union Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. Visit Navy federal.org cashrewards for details. Cash back terms and conditions apply. Offer ends January 1, 2026.

[Paulette Perhach]

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive, reach for a Sprite Winter Spiced Cranberry and put your twist on tradition. A bold cranberry and winter spice Flavor Fusion Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry is a refreshing way to shake things up.

[Diana]

This sip and season, and only for.

[Paulette Perhach]

A limited time, Sprite. Obey your thirst.

[Joe Salsihai]

Len, you started off in 1941. Now that you've seen the other guesses, what do you think?

[Len Penzo]

I got this wrapped up.

[Joe Salsihai]

You think so? Paulette, are you as cocky? Is Len overly confident?

[Paulette Perhach]

Maybe not. Yeah, I feel medium.

[Joe Salsihai]

Stephanie, your first time doing this?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

1960, zero confidence.

[Joe Salsihai]

You said it with a lot of confidence, though.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Thank you for I'm trained.

[Joe Salsihai]

Here, here. Here we go. Let's see who is going to win today's trivia question. Diana, who's it going to be?

[Diana]

Hey there, Staggers. I'm casual caller and connector Joe's mom's cousin Diana. And we're going back in time to when inventor Mr. Stubblefield made his invention of the first wireless phone official by securing a patent for protection of his work. Imagine if Verizon had paid him a ton of money or even AT and T. But I guess they were busy at the time spending money on finding blind spots in their network. So your phones wouldn't work going down major freeways. But here's the question. How far back are we going? In what year was the first wireless phone patented by Mr. Stubblefield? Well, we've got Stephanie at about 52 years away from the answer.

[Joe Salsihai]

Not bad.

[Diana]

We've got paulette at about 43 years away.

[Joe Salsihai]

A little better.

[Diana]

Which means that len, at just 33 years away, is our winner. Because the answer is May 12, 1908.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, my God. 1908.

[Len Penzo]

I was really thinking it was like 1920, but I wanted to give myself some space. So that's why I said for. So I was in. I really thought it was down there way back when.

[Joe Salsihai]

I was so surprised. You're researching that. 1908.

[Paulette Perhach]

That's very surprising.

[Joe Salsihai]

Do you think it was. It was 1910 before the first complaint came in or the first. First prank phone call. I don't know.

[Len Penzo]

I have a couple patents myself, and it takes a while to get a patent. So if it. If it was a bad joke.

[Joe Salsihai]

If it was, he really needs to.

[Len Penzo]

I bet you the patent was filed in probably 1905 or 1904, you know, before it finally got approved. Although maybe not. Maybe back then there wasn't as many patents, but who knows?

[Joe Salsihai]

But. Or it might have been a more streamlined process. There might not have been a bureaucracy yet.

[Len Penzo]

These days, you file a patent application, and it'll take five, six, seven years before it even gets awarded.

[Joe Salsihai]

Paulette. So first Len is bragging about Kentucky Fried Chicken, and now his patents. Like, when's this gonna end?

[Paulette Perhach]

I mean, that's mashed potato money right there. I'm not getting those extra biscuits at my house, but all the biscuits you want with these patents over Len Penzo, bring them to me, peasant. Perchance I shall tip you. Perchance not. I see you have no patents.

[Joe Salsihai]

We're springing today on coleslaw. Coleslaw for the little people. Yes. Even the vegetarian. Or vegan, did you say? Stephanie?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Vegetarian. I couldn't. Well, they're good without the cheese.

[Joe Salsihai]

You could do the coleslaw, too. You can get your, by the way, Kentucky Fried Chicken if you want to sponsor the show. I think we've already done some good work for you in advance. Just call our people. Time for the second half of our discussion on fighting between good and great. This is brought to you by deposit accounts.com from LendingTree. You know what happens when you go to deposit accounts.com, stephanie?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I don't.

[Joe Salsihai]

You find out. You know, that's okay because it is your lucky day. Think about your favorite holiday season. This is. This is going to be comparable because you go to deposit accounts.com and you find out that those savings account rates, OCD rates, checking account rates, money market rates that you got probably not best in class. They compare more than 275,000 different rates from over 11,000 banks and credit unions. They do for free, Stephanie. How about that?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Well, that I do appreciate.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's amazing. Thank you.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Literally, screenshot a picture of all of the interest earned on Our savings account year to date, and sent it to my husband today. And I was like, look at this.

[Joe Salsihai]

You're like, bang. Fantastic.

[Len Penzo]

Hey, does Magnify Money know that this is, you know, what is this called? Deposit. What?

[Joe Salsihai]

It was the lending tree people who are their parent company, who told us, hey, you've built up Magnify Money way, way, way more than we expected. So time to get the sister deposit accounts.

[Len Penzo]

Okay, so they're not stealing from Magnify Money.

[Joe Salsihai]

No, but I'm glad. Len. Len Russian to Magnify Money's defense.

[Len Penzo]

Well, I feel a certain kinship with Magnify Money. They've been with us for so long. They are.

[Joe Salsihai]

They're our longest sponsor. And now this week, it's deposit accounts from the same company. Deposit accounts, dot com, people. All right, let's jump back into this, because we. We talked about the problem of trying to be great and the pressure that it causes. And I want to go into procrastination. And, Stephanie, let's. Let's start with you. Have you found that this pressure to be great causes you to do nothing sometimes? And if so, how do you fight through procrastination?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I am the worst person to ask.

[Joe Salsihai]

About this, which means it happens to you.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I am incredibly unproductive. And I actually think that it's been interesting during the pandemic because I've released a lot of the shame I used to feel around that. And I think a lot of this idea of having to be great and perfect is often conflated with productivity and hustle culture. This idea that being great is. Is some of the things Diana was talking about, like all the things on the checklist. And what I have found during COVID and this time of space is a lot of the greatest work I feel like I've done has happened in the last couple of years through a space of stepping back and allowing myself to not call it procrastination, but simply just be and. And scale back and be introspective. And then when I am ready to create something, that's when I have to deal with the actual process of. Of procrastinating. But I think sometimes a lot of procrastinating gets labeled as procrastinating when it's really a lot of productivity, and that doesn't necessarily need to be done. So I think that has been the first thing for me, is like telling myself that I'm a bad person because I am procrastinating all the time, and I'm not productive. Every day has been something I've let go of. And that's allowed me to find the things that I want to strive towards that are more authentic to me as opposed to being some kind of arbitrary metrics of success.

[Joe Salsihai]

Success just giving yourself a little grace.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Exactly, exactly. And then there is always the problem still of okay, when I actually do have something to do. I now know myself enough to know the only way it's going to happen is with an external deadline. So I just accept that like I have. I'm done. I am 36 years old. I am done telling myself I'm going to be a different person tomorrow who wakes up and is self motivated. I am not that person and I'm not going to be. And that has been very liberating because now I know that. And so when people reach out to me said, I'm not going to get that done until you tell me a date where you need this done by. Because I know that about myself and it constraints force me out of procrastination.

[Joe Salsihai]

Paul at the external deadline works really well with my ADD because I find my ADD sends me into. I'm just going to learn a little bit more before I do anything. I'm just going to learn a little more. Like this idea that I need to be better educated is truly procrastination. Like I know myself well enough.

[Paulette Perhach]

Body doubling has been huge for me too.

[Joe Salsihai]

What does body do is where you.

[Paulette Perhach]

Have someone with you.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like an accountability partner.

[Paulette Perhach]

So many times we'll just be on a zoom call and it's just like literally me and my assistant and she's just kind of sitting there and I'm like, okay. And I'm just doing like a screen share and I'm like doing something that I wouldn't do if she weren't just like watching me do it. I'm like, sorry, you just have to watch me do this right now. But I need to do it.

[Joe Salsihai]

Is that also why you. You fill your calendar so much? Because for me the calendar keeps me on task.

[Paulette Perhach]

Yeah, I mean that's just like time blocking, you know, and like the things I should be doing every day. And yeah, I just want to do a lot of things. But what is enough is a very good question. You know, that's hard. Yeah, I think my calendar is just very full because writers and artists tend to do a lot of things that don't aren't very like income dense. So you know, if I want to get up and I want to write creatively every morning for two hours and then worse like a lot It's a lot to be an artist, but I gotta think, too.

[Joe Salsihai]

Paulette, you're writing something for the New York Times. There's this propensity which is also procrastination, which would be. I'm just going to revise it one more time.

[Paulette Perhach]

Yeah. As a journalist. Yeah. That's like, you know, the deadline comes, deadline happens.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

That's where constraints are a lifesaver. Even something like Instagram, which I have been kind of railing against doing for years, and then I finally started forcing myself to. To say, hey, you gotta just double down and do it. And that was the only thing I did for, like, four months, was make Instagram reels. And the constraint that it could only be 90 seconds is the only reason I got it done. Cause there's always. I've had the thing where I get assigned an article and I'll just go down the rabbit hole, and unless there's a reason that I can't make it better, I'll keep trying to make it better.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's funny, Stephanie. Use word constraints. We interviewed Don Hahn, who is a producer behind Beauty and the Beast and a bunch of other Disney movies, and he. And I asked him about, man, you're the guy with the purse strings now. He used to be an imagineer for Disney, and now he's on the other side. Like, does it feel weird telling these artists they can't do everything they want to do? And he said, exactly, Stephanie, what you said. An artist with constraint without constraints will never get anything done. Never get anything done. He's like, we'll just keep building castles in the sky. It just keeps going. Len, on your end, how do you fight procrastination? Or did you find during your career you had procrastination?

[Len Penzo]

You know, when I was younger, I was very guilty of procrastinating. And you know what I did that broke the habit? Believe it or not, another coworker of mine shared this with me. And actually he had it on above his desk, and he used it for himself to stop procrastinating. He had a picture of a dragon on his desk, and it had the title. It said, slay your dragons. And. And that was a constant reminder to him to do all the tasks, you know, don't let things linger, and slay your dragons. And I did that myself after he told me that. And it works. It's like whenever I felt like procrastinating, I would look at that picture of that dragon and it would remind me, hey, get off your butt. You have things you have to do and get them done. I mean, it sounds stupid, but it worked. At least it worked for me and it worked for my co worker.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's.

[Len Penzo]

It was very effective.

[Joe Salsihai]

There's a quote in this piece. I haven't talked a lot about this piece that inspired this, this discussion, but there's a quote here. Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh offers that true success means feeling content with the unfolding of your life. It is, quote, finding happiness in your work and life in the here and the now. Stephanie, did that resonate with you when you read that?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Yes. What I would take more issue with in the way the piece was framed was the idea that that is somehow antithetical to striving. I think a word to borrow from Michelle Obama here that's helpful for me is the idea of becoming. It's becoming connected and content and feeling like you're realizing your full potential. For me is something that I want to feel every day. It feels good. Not because I'm chasing an arbitrary metric because, but because that process of growth is very satisfying. And I think it's as part of meaning making that we do as humans, just like we grow in our relationships, we grow with the things that we value. And I think that's the reason you see people who are incredibly successful, particularly in the arts, they'll create for the remainder of their careers, not because they need to win some more kind of awards, not because they need more money, but they are called to that. So I think there's something to having both.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think as you're talking, it just, it reminds me of something I heard a few months ago, Stephanie, which was. It was a cr. And once again, I wish I. I wish I could quote this person because I think this is pretty brilliant. It's. Us is a verb instead of us is a noun. When we think about ourself as a noun, we're a set. This is what I am. I'm this pillar, this edifice, and I'm not on this moving motion thing. And this, this particular person. And again, I wish I knew who it was. This particular person, though, said that professionals, professionals do the thing and they take pride in the fact that this is what I do. So I'm a human being in action. I'm not the end result. An amateur looks at the end result and gets all freaked out and procrastinates because they want it to be perfect. The professional just does it every day. That's what they do. I remember listening to a show about a TV writer and he's like, I Write tv. And we, we got a new show every week. I don't have time to procrastinate. Like, I gotta. It's that same external deadline thing that you're talking about. Let's pivot this away from workplace to money. I mean, obviously making money is what we're talking about here with what we've discussed so far. But a lot of people listening to this think they might not be great with money and it might freeze them from opening a Roth IRA or, heck, even a savings account or whatever it might be. Len, how do you, in areas of your financial life where you think you might not be wonderful, still get around that and make some pretty savvy moves?

[Len Penzo]

Well, like in investing, that's one of the biggest ones. It's. And we go back to the delegates. There's certain things that I want to invest in that I'm just not good at. You know, I want to get into a certain sector or something, and I'm not. I don't know who to choose what, what companies to pick, and I don't want to spend the time that takes to do the research. So I delegate out and I get a fund that's managed by a. An expert.

[Joe Salsihai]

You could also go right to the index fund, Len. I mean, you could really, in a lot of, you know, for a lot of people, you could go right to an index fund with that, buy all 500 companies.

[Len Penzo]

You're right. You can do that. But if you're looking for better returns, if you're trying to beat the index, you know, you're trying to beat the nice, comfortable return of an index fund, and you want to, you want to do better than that, then you have to, you really have to do some research for that. You need experts. So that's just one area. Another thing I will do is like, for example, with the perfect being the enemy of good. When you're like, comparison shopping, I know a lot of people that will comparison shop. They're shopping for things, and they will spend months trying to find for, like, a car or something to find the exact best price, you know, to save that extra hundred dollars to get before they pull the trigger on that car. Is it really worth it for, you know, to say that extra hundred dollars, you know, get two or three estimates, four estimates, and you're done. Don't spend, you know, four months researching a car. If you want, you need the car, get the car. What's a couple hundred bucks on a huge 40,000, $50,000 purchase, right? So that's another thing I Think about.

[Joe Salsihai]

People as you're talking. People missing $100 bills because they're so busy picking up pennies, you know?

[Len Penzo]

Yeah, right. That's right.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah. Paulette, how about you? What do you do money wise to.

[Paulette Perhach]

I think just automate, you know, and get social with it where you have some kind of accountability, some kind of external accountability. I mean, God, there's a, like, an ADHD and neurodivergent finance group that I just joined on Facebook, and it is very enlightening and in a way, feels great.

[Joe Salsihai]

And they're constantly changing the subject.

[Paulette Perhach]

No, they're all about, like, how much credit card that they have and how much they spend on stupid stuff over and over and over. And you're just like, oh, my God, I belong here. And this is the last place I really want to belong with, like, everyone who keeps just, like, feels hopeless. So it's just, like, continuing to come back to square one, you know, and automate as much as you can.

[Joe Salsihai]

And you said before you use, like, a robo for some of your stuff, right?

[Paulette Perhach]

Yeah, so I do betterment and send my, like, $100 every week and send payments to credit cards every week. And, you know, and then you just start to see your bank account without that money or your paycheck without that money as the floor. You know, you just adjust. And you're so used to not having that, so I think that's really helpful. And then just getting help where you need, like, my formula for outsourcing are things that are really important and things that I've always struggled with. So I have a personal trainer that I work with because I've always had a hard time, like, making myself work out. And so now I, like, work out five to six times a week. It's great. And it's just like, I know Hamilton's waiting for me, so that really helps. And then, you know, just things like having a very.

[Joe Salsihai]

Going on a Broadway show. When you said, Hamilton's waiting for you, I'm like, so you're working out? So you're going on a Broadway show?

[Paulette Perhach]

Hamilton lives in Columbia because I work.

[Joe Salsihai]

Out six days a week. Oh, it's a different. It's a purse. I got it. I'm sorry.

[Paulette Perhach]

And then with a very important meeting, I know I have people waiting for me to meditate and get my writing done and, you know, just creating those structures. And I think that the more, like, when we're bad at something, we want to run away. And that's where you really have to kind of, you know, Actually lean into it. I heard this thing about how, like, buffalo know that if a storm is coming, they run toward the storm because they'll get through it faster rather than running away from it, Right? So it's like, you have to run toward the storm and just be like. And that's where that vulnerability comes in. And being willing to say, I really struggle with this and I need help.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's a great analogy. I love that analogy. I'm gonna steal that from you, Paulette.

[Paulette Perhach]

I'm gonna Google it and make sure I got it right.

[Joe Salsihai]

Whether it's right or not. I heard someone recently say, run toward the stress. You know, if there's a stressor in your life, run toward it, meet it head on, be vulnerable, find help. I. I absolutely love that. Stephanie, how about you? You hear this from people all the time, right? I mean, when I was on your show, you've got a. Every week you've got somebody who's trying to solve a problem. What's a truth you found there?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I find people think of themselves and their financial situation as a reflection of their identity and who they are as a person, as opposed to a behavior that, like, every moment is an opportunity for a new behavior. But if you internalize something as your identity, it's a fixed. Like, you think of identity as fixed. And if you attribute your money habits or outcomes to that instead of to behavior, it's very hard to make changes. So one of the ways I get people to break out of that is to identify what they're doing right. And I don't care how small it is. I don't care how much debt they're in. I don't care, you know, what they think is the worst situation they've gotten themselves into. There is always something they're doing right. And it's much easier, I find, for people to start building from that space than it is to start building from a place of, I'm just bad at money, and it is the way it is and it will always be. And I think for me, a lot of that is about being curious. You know, we were talking before about getting over procrastination, and I talked about constraints. And sometimes I think we hear money advice. And if somebody said, oh, add constraints, people be like, well, that doesn't work for me. And that's okay. Like, just get curious about what does for me, like, body doubling doesn't work. I know that. I know that for me, trying to do eat the frog, slay the dragon, it doesn't work. And I think for A lot of us when it comes to money, we hear these things and we are like, oh, it doesn't work for me. So that means that that confirms my belief that it's me, that I'm bad at money. Where instead if I get curious about it and I think about, okay, where is this pattern showing up? How does it keep happening? How does it make me feel? What happens before? Maybe then I can find what actually is going to work for me.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's so much more fun because then it becomes a science experiment, Stephanie.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

It is and it's a. And you can't solve that in a spreadsheet, right? And it's hard because oftentimes that's where we do a lot of the work. But you gotta get out of the, the cells of the spreadsheet to figure out a lot of this stuff.

[Joe Salsihai]

Diana, how about you?

[Diana]

You know the thing that I think is so cool about money is that it is literally the only thing in life that you can completely mess up and still be totally fine. You can lose all your money, you can go through a bankruptcy, you can get into a ton of debt, you can make bad business decisions and lose your business.

[Joe Salsihai]

Right?

[Diana]

I mean, this happens to people and there's a lot of shame around that. Money is an in personal dispassionate tool, right? You can screw it up and you could fix it. You can't say the same thing about relationships, your health, the things that are really important in life. And so I think people get confused about that, right? They see money as a goal and they see money as a representation of their self worth. Right? Don't confuse your net worth with your self worth. People confuse that and it just creates a lot of shame and a lot of negativity versus just recognizing that this is all fixable. So for me, I really agree with Stephanie that, you know, when I started figuring out my money situation, I was letting my curiosity be bigger than my fear. And I ran the credit report and I saw that I was 30 grand in debt and I had no idea that was a wake up call. But if I didn't have that curiosity to just look, then I would have never been able to start the process of unraveling and then rebuilding.

[Joe Salsihai]

I love this idea too, of working from a place of strength instead of trying to fix yourself. I get some great coaching from a group called Strategic Coach and that is, was one of their first lessons when I started with them a few years ago was if you're going to always work on the things that you suck at, you're you might come up to the middle, but if you work at what you're great at, you will have exponential results. Plus, it's so much more fun, you know, working from what you actually enjoy doing. It's been a fantastic conversation, guys. Thank you so much for hanging out and for having this. I think we hopefully inspired a lot of people today. Let's find out what's happening where all of you are. Let's start today. Paulette, we'll start with you. What's going on in the Paulette perhaps world?

[Paulette Perhach]

Well, worked on a piece for the New York Times about the future of ChatGPT and financial advice, so that was really interesting.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, but if you had. I mean, writing for the New York Times is fine, but have you ever had Kentucky Fried Chicken delivered to your home?

[Paulette Perhach]

Well, listen, I mean, I'm not like a staff. A staffer. Okay. Or like an editor. Then maybe I would just. I'm a mere freelancer, okay? I schlep it over to Kentucky Fried Chicken to dig through the trash cans outside.

[Joe Salsihai]

I said that specifically to get a rise out of Len Penzo and it's not happening. He's just. Nope, still not happening. Anyway, sorry, Paulette. So peace for the New York Times. That's all. Big deal. What else you got going on?

[Paulette Perhach]

And working on coaching and your personal editor and helping people become better writers, and that's been Great. I've had 75 coaching clients. Now I'm on my 75th.

[Joe Salsihai]

Wow. Congratulations. Yeah, those are 75 lucky people. If somebody wants to be number 76, where do they go?

[Paulette Perhach]

That writer? Paulette.com.

[Joe Salsihai]

There it is. Diana, you just had a guest on the podcast with us.

[Diana]

I just had a get.

[Joe Salsihai]

What? You just showed us a get. We had a guest on the podcast.

[Diana]

That was literally two seconds ago.

[Paulette Perhach]

And I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah, my cat wanted to join the show.

[Diana]

That's Nibbles.

[Paulette Perhach]

She's adorable.

[Joe Salsihai]

Short term memory loss area right there. Like who Nibbles nibbling away at your.

[Paulette Perhach]

Gotta say that real carefully. Yes, yes, yes, Diana, your Nibbles are showing.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Diana.

[Joe Salsihai]

Next year's economy conference. If people want to get in on this, I think they should move quickly. Where do we go?

[Diana]

So economyconference.com. and remember that economy is spelled with an M E, not an M Y. And we've got a special offer for stackers. 10% off with the discount code. Stacking. Benjamin's all caps, one word. We'll get you 10% off.

[Joe Salsihai]

How awesome is that? Because we know Diana we got you special deal.

[Diana]

Joe's mom's. She negotiated that for you on your behalf.

[Joe Salsihai]

She did. We can't do that. Mom did. Yeah. Diana, thanks so much Mr. Penzo. What's going [e-mail] first off, I'm wondering.

[Len Penzo]

If Diana could have picked a longer, I mean a shorter discount code. I mean why not anti disestablishmentarianism or something?

[Paulette Perhach]

I mean, my goodness, it should have been Joe's mom. It would have been off in the.

[Len Penzo]

Your keyboard runs out of power before.

[Diana]

You get the code can change it. But we published it already.

[Joe Salsihai]

We've already published it. Yeah, we've already said it elsewhere. Otherwise Joe's mom would have the next year. Dan.

[Diana]

Joe's mom it is.

[Paulette Perhach]

Yes.

[Joe Salsihai]

That'd be so funny. But for this year it's stacking Benjamin's people all caps. All right, what's going on?

[Len Penzo]

Pencil.com youm know what I'm talking about. Junk mail this [e-mail] and I found a great way to stop it. If so if you still get tired of getting all that crappy junk mail in your mailbox, I found a couple solutions that I have tried out and I can already say they work 100%. So stop on by lenpenzo.com and find.

[Joe Salsihai]

Out is it give everybody your neighbor's address? Is that it?

[Paulette Perhach]

I need this. There's this horrifying like coupon mailer that's always folded in the same way and on the rounded folder on the top it's some kind of life alert thing. But it's always this woman like mid fall in the shower making this thing whole horrifying face. And so I opened my mailbox and he's like. And I'm like oh my God, stop sending me this. It's like once a week for months now. I'm like, if I have to see this old woman falling in the shower one more freaking time, I'm going to kill someone. So that's not.

[Len Penzo]

That's not funny, Paulette, because that's not junk mail for me.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's.

[Len Penzo]

That's the stuff I keep.

[Paulette Perhach]

Listen, I don't know how I got on the same list as you, Len, but they have their demographics incorrect.

[Joe Salsihai]

Paulette's getting your mail in apparently. Yeah, that's it.

[Paulette Perhach]

I mean when that I'm getting that like, you know what? As I'm getting the solo choker, they're like, you know, d choke yourself. They're like we see you signed up for dating apps again. Have you Considered not dying in your apartment. Next time you order KFC by yourself, delivered should you get a big check in the mail. Some kind of windfall here. Here's how to not be eaten alive by your cafe.

[Len Penzo]

Does Hamilton know you're doing this?

[Paulette Perhach]

And choke out on a biscuit.

[Joe Salsihai]

Stephanie, you guys have amazing conversations at Money Confidential, but do you have conversations that involve KFC and not joking yourself?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I mean, I'm really trying to reflect on it. Probably not. We got to step up our game to match what's happening here.

[Joe Salsihai]

I guess. I guess so. Thanks so much for finally hanging out with us. It's about time.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Well, thanks for the invite. It's a pleasure.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, you got to tell us, you know. Nobody's listening. It's just us.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Salsihai]

What's. What's something secret that's happening at Money Confidential nobody else knows about that you can break Here, here.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I really wish I had something to tell you. I've been, like, racking my brain. I was even going back through my Instagram as you were all sharing updates, and I was like, I don't know. The last thing I did about anything, I went to the Galapagos.

[Joe Salsihai]

Okay?

[Paulette Perhach]

Just the Galapagos.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's a holy.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Just the Galapagos. But it's not really, you know, cutting. It's not writing for the New York Times.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, if you're not going to break anything here, then, Stephanie, we'll just tell people to go. Just pause and go and subscribe or follow Money Confidentials, and it's wherever you get your podcast. So. Webby winning podcast, and it's long overdue.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

And that is news that just happened.

[Paulette Perhach]

Congratulations.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's so amazing. Yeah, it was great. When I saw that you and Nicole Lapin, who's another person I absolutely love, were up, I was like, you know, those are not the usual names that you see for those awards. And I was like, these guys are actually paying attention.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I was shocked. I had no idea this was coming.

[Joe Salsihai]

I was super.

[Len Penzo]

Stephanie, you've got to follow the Stacy Johnson rule, though, now, because now that you've won that webby, you have a nice shelf back there I can see. And the webby is not prominently displayed.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I got it. You know what, though? You know what the issue is? It's technically not my show.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, but they gotta send you a statue, right? You gotta get a statue.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

It's your fault. We've won a few awards, and I haven't received any of them, you know, one star.

[Paulette Perhach]

One of the things is you could just buy yourself an award. You can buy yourself a trophy. Like I've thought about when my imposter syndrome.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

I'm going to go manufacture some trophy. Yeah.

[Paulette Perhach]

Like when my imposter syndrome flares up, I'm like, I want to get myself two of those corporate awards. It's to say like million reader viral story considering I got like $200 for the first one and $440 for the next one. Like, I want a damn trophy. I want a trophy so that I can remember that I did that. Because it's so invisible.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Because I actually am the best. I'm not just striving.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yes. And at least I know it. Right?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

We're contradicting ourselves here.

[Joe Salsihai]

All right, it's time for us to go. Unfortunately, guys, man, there's a lot of takeaways today. But Diana, I think, can you distill it to 3? What should we have learned today?

[Diana]

First, take some advice from our panel. What's more important? Getting the thing in front of you done. As Joe's mom says, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. And second, you can't bully yourself into being a better person. It just doesn't work. So how about being a little nicer to yourself? But the big lesson, it turns out that you've gotta drain the green bean cans before you put them up to your ears if you want to hear anything.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's the way it works, Stephanie. That's the way it works.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Lesson learned.

[Diana]

Thanks to Stephanie o' Connell Rodriguez for joining us today. You'll find her show Money Confidential wherever you're listening to us us right now. We'll also include links in our show [e-mail] thanks also to Paulette perhaps for joining us. Need help with your writing or editing to power up your messaging, Head to that writer, Paulette.com and thank you to Lynn Penzo for joining us. You'll find Len as [e-mail] we're glad you joined us today but want to hang out in person with other like minded individuals. My party about money called the Economy Conference will be in Cincinnati March 15th through 17th of 2024 and tickets are already selling fast. In fact, one hotel block is already sold out. Head to EconomyConference.com to join us and use code STACKINGBENJAMINS. All caps one word for 10% off. You're welcome. This show is the property of SB Podcast LLC, Copyright 2023 and is created by Joe Salsihai. Our producer is Karen Repine. This show was written by Joe Salsihai with help from me, Doc G from the Earn and Invest podcast and Lacey Langford from the Military Money show. Kevin Bailey helps us take a deeper dive into all the topics covered on each episode in our newsletter called the 201. You'll find the 411 on all things money at the 201. Just go to stackingbenjamins.com 201. Tina Eichenberg makes the video version of the show. Once we bottle up all this goodness, we ship it to our engineer, the amazing Steve Stewart. Steve helps the rest of our team sound nearly as good as I do right now. Want to chat with friends about the show later? Mom's friend Gertrude and Kate Yunkin are our social media coordinators and Gertrude is the room mother of our Facebook group called the Basement. So say hello when you see us posting online. To join all the Basement fun with other stackers, type stackingbenjamins.com basement. Not only should you not take advice from these nerds, don't take advice from people you don't know. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any financial decisions, speak with a real financial advisor. I'm Joe's mom's cousin Diana from the other economy conference. And we'll see you next time back here on the Stacking Benjamin show.

[Joe Salsihai]

Sam.

[Paulette Perhach]

Stephanie. I just put into, like, chat GPT. I'm like, I'm writing an article about.

[Joe Salsihai]

This, this, and this.

[Paulette Perhach]

Like, who should I interview? And you weren't one of the people that it recommended?

[Joe Salsihai]

What?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Wow, that's wild.

[Joe Salsihai]

This is the chat GPT version of Len Penzo right here.

[Paulette Perhach]

Chat lpt.

[Joe Salsihai]

Pure AI lpt. There's got to be some other chat. Like, there's a joke there, Paulette.

[Paulette Perhach]

I hate them for naming it that. Like, you know we're all going to say it over and over. Why would you make us say something so clumsily? Like we just call it chatty internally.

[Joe Salsihai]

There's got to be the three letters. There's like a joke that's three letters that I don't know. It's right there.

[Paulette Perhach]

Chad.

[Joe Salsihai]

Chat. Opp. Chat. I don't know. Yeah, we did that joke. All right. Len, how are you, man?

[Len Penzo]

I'm great. I expected you to come back speaking Spanish.

[Joe Salsihai]

18 days and I'm fluent. I'm very fluent.

[Len Penzo]

Awesome.

[Joe Salsihai]

I am fluent in the word roja. Why?

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

What happened?

[Joe Salsihai]

Like, more roja, please.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Oh, the wine, por favor.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yes.

[Paulette Perhach]

In Colombia, this is my favorite. So randomly.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

Yeah, I was in Medellin. Very good Spanish.

[Paulette Perhach]

And Aaron Lowry's like, hey, my friend Stephanie's about to be in Medellin. Or I was like, right outside of it. So Stephanie ended up coming out, and we're riding horses, and someone says, like, oh, they call this, like, an air potato. And I was like, oh, cool. And I look at it, and I hand it to Stephanie, and then I turn back to the guy, and I was like. I was like, ise come, like. And people eat it. And he goes, no. And then I just hear.

[Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez]

And Stephanie had taken the bite and.

[Paulette Perhach]

Was spitting it out.